Jean Blacklock (00:01) Hello everyone and welcome to Beyond the Bank. For some people, no matter the challenges they are facing in life, the thought of discussing these issues with a therapist is daunting. That said, wealth professionals are often their clients' most trusted advisors, so today's guest offers insight into what therapy entails and how and when wealth professionals may want to encourage clients to speak with a therapist. Megan Jansen is a registered psychotherapist based in Toronto.

Megan Janzen (00:11) Thank

Jean Blacklock (00:28) She is a graduate of the Toronto Institute for Relational Psychotherapy, a member of the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario, the Canadian Association for Psychodynamic Therapy, and the Ontario Society of Registered Psychotherapists. Megan has also completed the one-year training program for professionals at the Gestalt Institute of Toronto and is a Bachelor of Arts in Conflict Resolution Studies from the University of Winnipeg. Welcome, Megan. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Megan Janzen (00:55) Thank you for asking me to be here, Jean. It's good to see you.

Jean Blacklock (00:59) Nice to see you. So let's begin by talking about you, Megan. What drew you to this profession? And can you tell us a little bit about your path to becoming a registered psychotherapist?

Megan Janzen (01:11) Absolutely. I mean, you said the formal studies that got me there, probably the most important factor I think that brought me there was having a parent that had a chronic illness. And from that, just a real curiosity about how others were feeling and finding purpose in taking care of others. And through that, just really wanting to study it and learn more about it.

Jean Blacklock (01:37) Right. So having gone to the same school as you for my therapy training, I'm aware, and you and I have certainly chatted about this a lot, that a lot of therapy training is actually experiential. We're getting to know oneself in the process of learning how to become a therapist. For you, was that difficult? Were there any surprises along the way as you went through the experiential aspect of

TURP as we fondly refer to the Toronto Institute of Relational Psychotherapy.

Megan Janzen (02:12) yeah, great question. I feel like experiential is a really powerful way to learn. I think the surprises were just those moments where you are feeling anxious or exposed, noticing ways that you relate to other people and what might be a common theme, like a role that I might have in the group at TERF as we do what we call group processing.

how that might relate to a role I had in a family or a role I had as a child at school. And maybe just getting to know what you said, getting to know ourselves and seeing the grooves that we fall into in many different relationships and systems.

Jean Blacklock (02:58) Right. And in terms of our listeners being wealth professionals who may or may not have used therapy in their own life, can you shed a little light on how the therapist understanding himself or herself really helps us meet clients where they are and help them with the work? How does that work in the therapy room?

Megan Janzen (03:25) Well, I really think of therapy as getting to know oneself better. So it's really creating a space where someone gets to know themselves better. but as the facilitator of that, a therapist, if, if we don't spend the time getting to know ourselves or getting to know our challenges, I, like, I personally don't believe that we are a blank slate or completely objective going in as a therapist. So the more we understand our relationships and our patterns,

I feel like we're mitigating how much they get in the way of really holding a space for the client that is trying to get to know themselves and their values or their challenges in a clearer sense.

Jean Blacklock (04:12) Yeah, yes. It's, I guess the term we, well not I guess, but the term we use as therapists is transference and counter-transference. When clients bring up something in us or we may bring up something in them. For example, if a client, I'm in my 60s and if a client is in their 20s, they may very well...

Megan Janzen (04:22) Right.

Jean Blacklock (04:35) transferred over to me, a parental type of thing and vice versa. My countertransference may be that they are like a child or like I was as a person in my 20s. So those things are really interesting and as you say, as therapists, knowing that these things come up help us really hold space in the 60 minutes just for the client. they don't have to be worried about whether

Megan Janzen (04:37) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (05:04) you know, we can hold it because we've done that work.

Megan Janzen (05:08) And I think all the group processing that we do in that program, it comes up over and over and over again. So we get more comfortable to sit in the discomfort. So when it happens in a session, we've experienced it so many times, like, there's that thing that happens for me. And like you said, we can be aware of it and then it gets less in the way.

Jean Blacklock (05:30) Right, right. So for listeners that are perhaps themselves new to therapy and at the moment as they're listening to us are thinking, my goodness, far be it from me to ever suggest to someone that I manage money for that maybe they should talk to someone in air quotes, maybe you should talk to someone. Let's start with, you know, what a person new to psychotherapy might expect. What's the structure? What's the format?

Megan Janzen (05:51) Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (06:00) How long does the relationship continue? What are the real basics that you think people might like to know about therapy?

Megan Janzen (06:12) Well, I'll go back to the first thing that you said in therapist speak. I'll circle back to the first thing is far be it that I recommend this to someone. And something that I say to people when they're new to therapy, I think there's this idea that it's the going to therapy means you're in crisis. But if we compare it, let's say to going to a gym, we never think, why are you going to the gym? Are you not well? Right. We think of it as proactively taking care of yourself.

Jean Blacklock (06:17) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Megan Janzen (06:40) So I think of therapy as really setting aside time to think about how are we feeling? What do we want? What might be difficult for us? So it doesn't necessarily mean we're in crisis. It's actually just maybe for a greater balance or grounding us more when challenges come up. And to speak to what you said about the structure, it does depend. For me, my sessions are 50 minutes. I know you referenced 60 minutes.

Some people go even longer, but generally speaking, it's a 50 minute session. Generally speaking, you'll start with once a week. Some people go bi-weekly. With relational therapy, it is typically a longer term relationship. Not always, but I find often what naturally ends up happening is clients might taper off as the thing that, as maybe a thing that brings them to therapy. And then as we develop a relationship, it's just,

living their life and then having that container or having someone that knows them to bounce ideas off of. So it can taper off to monthly. And whereas I even have some clients that might feel really grounded, go away for a while, and then they lose a parent or get a new job or have to make a big choice. And they end up resurfacing for some sessions to work through that.

Jean Blacklock (08:02) That's right, yeah. There's lots that you said there of interest. Going back to the beginning of a therapeutic relationship, I think one thing that's important for people to know is that it's really all about the relationship. And so that people shouldn't hesitate to politely say after one session that they don't want to continue or whatever's comfortable for them in terms of saying,

You know, you're not my person. I think all of us as therapists are well experienced in that. We understand when people, you know, even if they choose to ghost us, like that's, you know, that's part of the business. And the important thing is for clients to feel comfortable that they can share some, you know, maybe the most significant things going on in their life with this person.

Megan Janzen (08:38) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm and that and what I often say is you know don't make a decision right away. There's typically a consultation that's free of charge That's something that I do in my practice and I'll say I can refer you to some other people see how you feel In your body doing that consultation. Do you feel comfortable? I? Strongly believe it's not about Sort of a better therapist or a worse therapist. It's really about the fit between the two individuals

Jean Blacklock (09:23) Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Janzen (09:24) So I think it's, I agree with you, it's so important to pay attention to that. And even if a few sessions in, something doesn't feel right, that's the beauty of relational therapy, we actually encourage you to bring, okay, you said this thing, it didn't feel right, or I didn't wanna talk about this thing, and I welcome that in our work together.

Jean Blacklock (09:42) Yes. I had a client one time refer to the work that we did together as, you know, that he yammered on and that perhaps, you know, maybe that wasn't really the point, was that the point? And, you know, I think for people that are really high functioning as probably many of the clients of wealth advisors are, they're out there in the world doing

Megan Janzen (09:53) Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (10:10) you know, big things including making money. For them it may be odd for them to, when they realize that the therapy space is not about having an agenda or necessarily getting anything done in the particular session, but a place where they can really be kind of, if they need to be or when they want to be, just messy.

Megan Janzen (10:13) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think even with this kind of particular client or group that you're talking about, Jean, it's also about maybe slowing down and paying attention to what comes up when the goal isn't just tangible productivity. How does that feel?

Jean Blacklock (10:51) Yeah, yes. So at a very high level, what are some of the challenges that people bring to therapy?

Megan Janzen (11:02) Mm-hmm. I mean, I was just talking to a friend actually about this who is also a therapist because the challenges might be identity, you know, childhood trauma, what's relationship problems, infertility or raising children, like anything. But what I find so interesting

is it's almost less about what the client is bringing when we're thinking about a client and therapist fit. And it's more about the energy and the relationship or the dynamic that the two of you can create together. So I find in my practice, it's actually less about a very specific theme of content. And it's more about the connection that we can create together.

Jean Blacklock (11:51) Yeah, that's really well put. And then on that same question, generationally, do you see linkages? Do you see the Gen Zed clients in your practice maybe bringing different things than those that are baby boomers? Or is it really across the map what different people at different life stages bring?

Megan Janzen (12:20) Hmm. I think I'm going to answer that both of those things are true. In one sense, so much of it has to do it. So much of it is all the same in the sense of what is your relationship to yourself? How do you fit in? How do you not? How do you feel about that? So so much of it is just about connection, connection to oneself and connection to people around them. I would say a difference that I notice is that my clients that are

younger, they are bombarded with a lot more pop psychology than I think my generation or a generation older than me would be. So they're almost coming in with like when I think of when I first started studying counseling, psychology and seminary and like my early twenties, I didn't have the language that these clients are coming in and talking to me about. They know the theories, they know the words, but on this very almost pop psychology level,

Jean Blacklock (13:19) Mm-hmm.

Megan Janzen (13:19) that on one hand they know so much more, but on the other hand, I find it can bring up a lot of anxiety because there's almost like an information overload. So in some ways there's more understanding, but then with that comes a lot of anxiety about all the understanding and maybe not having like a, the container to kind of like ground it into.

Jean Blacklock (13:38) Yes.

Megan Janzen (13:46) And then one other thing I would say that I find from my younger clients, they come in with the understanding that I'm not a blank slate and I'm not objective. And they ask more of me to show up in a more personal level. I'd say I notice as a theme, which would take longer than clients my generation or older. Again, as always outliers to these, you know, statements.

Jean Blacklock (14:13) Right. So just to clarify, are you saying that the older clients, and I'm using that in a relative thing, relative way, they are more formal in the relationship with you? They perhaps treat it more in the same way. They come to your sessions in the same way they might come to their wealth advisor meeting or their accountant meeting, like it's professional?

Megan Janzen (14:22) Mm-hmm.

That's a great question. Maybe in the beginning, but not long term. Yeah. Now, if I really think about my clients, no, not long term anymore. Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (14:45) Okay? Okay.

Okay, but those in their 20s and 30s might be more, but quicker to say, you know, or want to know who are you, Megan? Not in a rude way, but they want to know. They know you're real human being behind there and they want to know who that is.

Megan Janzen (15:02) absolutely.

whereas some others might actually not want to know and that's helpful for their process.

Jean Blacklock (15:12) Right, right. So zeroing in then on really the subject matter of this podcast, Beyond the Bank, which is money finances wealth management, the transfer of money from one generation to the next. Talk about the ways that these topics come up or don't come up in your work with clients, given how central money is to each and every human being.

Megan Janzen (15:43) Absolutely, and I'll say like the bulk of my clients are in their 20s and 30s just to name that. with that and living in a, generally speaking, living in a quite expensive city, which is also a piece to this. So there's a lot of talk about negotiating raises, boundaries that might need to happen at work. Like, do we want to ask for more money or do we want to ask for better work-life balance boundaries?

I'm finding that a lot of clients are coming in and how am gonna possibly ever save for a house, right? Do I leave the city? And then it might even come, then what ends up coming up is how were they raised to believe about money, about saving? What was the messaging at home? Was there a parent that lost a job? Was every...

were they kind of not empowered to take care of themselves. So that ends up becoming a big piece of it. And then I've been, I never expected this before becoming a therapist. I am surprised how often we just sit down and make a budget together and how many clients just weren't taught that or don't do that. So then saving becomes a lot harder. And what is your relationship to your parents?

helping you or not helping you financially.

Jean Blacklock (17:10) Right. So then on that last piece that you just mentioned, that can go in a million different ways then. That it's welcome assistance in some cases and unwelcome in others or the way that the assistance is offered can cause problems.

Megan Janzen (17:32) Yeah. What are the strings attached? Are we speaking about them directly? Are we speaking about them indirectly? Where that's where I feel like the conflict really comes up when it's this unspoken implicit rules around help. And then, and then if someone accepts it, what rules do I need to play by? And what I like to say is like, how can we prioritize the relationship first?

Jean Blacklock (17:35) Yes.

Megan Janzen (18:03) And I think having these conversations about what does this really mean or do I need to have a budget? If I accept this help, can I go on a vacation? Or is this going to come between our relationship or I go on vacation? I think it's really important to directly have those conversations between the generations and families.

Jean Blacklock (18:23) Yes, yeah. The thing that comes up in my work with clients of that age when the idea of having conversations upfront or on an ongoing basis comes up is that my clients are worried that then it will go back into childhood patterns, which often in some cases means anger.

Megan Janzen (18:38) Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (18:52) anger coming at them from their parent or their parent being, well frankly, unable or unwilling in situations to recognize the child as an adult. I think that on, and I'd like to get into the issue of health of parents in a moment, but I find that there are a lot of

Megan Janzen (18:53) Okay.

Hmm.

Jean Blacklock (19:21) parents again are around my generation who do find it hard to see in their children the adults that are now there as opposed to the children that they raised and when you throw money into the mix it gets even more complicated.

Megan Janzen (19:29) Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, and there's not one right way to do it, right, Jean? a question you have to ask yourself is what is this going to cost the relationship? And so to what you said, some parents might have more of a capacity, even if it's hard, to, okay, actually my child is an adult, right? And I'm going to let go of this, this, and this, but I actually can't let go of this, this, and this. But I think the more that is clear between, let's say, the adult and child,

Jean Blacklock (19:43) Mm-hmm.

Megan Janzen (20:09) the more we're protecting the relationship about what kind of the rules are and then the family can make a decision. Okay, do we want this transfer of money or is the cost too great to the relationship?

Jean Blacklock (20:25) Yes. One of our faculty members that we both know well, Roseanne Grimard, I was speaking with her about topics like this and she reminded me that one of the wonderful things that the therapy relationship can do is help people prepare for difficult conversations. She mentioned a time when, you know, it was several sessions that she spent with a client.

In that particular case, it was an estate planning dilemma. But a therapist can do, it's sort of a form of coaching in a way, like what can we expect? How will we approach this? And then knowing that the therapist is there when the conversation is over to go back to the next session and talk about how it went. Because this is just frankly a very difficult thing when you've known someone your entire life.

or if you're the parent, you you've known your child 30 years, whatever. It's hard sometimes to suddenly recognize that these are real grown up conversations that are needed.

Megan Janzen (21:21) you

Yeah, and I mean, and you and I have talked about this, but the feelings of mortality that that brings up and even for the child imagining not having your parent around, right. And I can imagine with, you know, just my 11 and 13 year old, what I can't imagine what it would be like for them to make decisions that feel really different than what I would do.

Jean Blacklock (21:47) Right.

Megan Janzen (22:02) It probably takes a lot of work to let go of that control, but at the end of the day, what do we want more, the control or the relationship?

Jean Blacklock (22:13) Right. Something else I've noticed recently that I'd love to get your take on is I think people in their 20s and 30s worry more about their parents than their parents know. And what I mean by that is I think that it's a continual thing from the idea of parents not recognizing that their children have grown up.

Megan Janzen (22:20) Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Jean Blacklock (22:40) I think sometimes they think that if they don't talk about things, you know, about their health declining comes to mind for me with actually quite a group of clients. So the parent's health is declining, physical or more perhaps mental or cognitive. And there's just not, it's kind of like an opaque wall between the children and their parents. And because the, you know, the children aren't yet, shall we say, like in their 40s, so full-fledged,

Megan Janzen (22:58) Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (23:10) full on adults. They're hesitant to be stern with their parents and say, you know, we really need to talk about this. I guess my sense, and again, I'd like your perspective, is that, you know, parents need to be aware of how much their kids actually do worry about them.

Megan Janzen (23:15) Hmm.

and how much their kids actually observe, right?

Jean Blacklock (23:36) Absolutely. And don't we know that from sort of age two and up, you know, when we're so thankful that our children don't see what we're arguing, but in fact they know everything. But it's the same. Like people are in a family, you fall into these traps of thinking that, you know, nobody else is thinking about this, but it's a fallacy.

Megan Janzen (23:40) you

Exactly.

Yeah, and I mean, now that you say this, Jean, I'm just kind of thinking over the roster. Many, many clients, there's been sessions about my parent is aging. I saw them do this thing and they looked particularly vulnerable. The feelings that that brings up for a client in their 20s or 30s and not quite knowing. And maybe what I should say is how good it's, how comforting it feels if there can be an open dialogue about it.

But there's a balance between kind of putting your child in the position of needing to be your caregiver, between not talking about it at all and pretending it isn't there, right? The balance is how can we talk about it, but the parent can still be the parent. Now, of course, to your point, there's different phases and there is, and it's different, I know, different ages for different people, but where we do end up actually practically being the caregiver for our aging parent.

Jean Blacklock (25:00) Right, yeah. So then moving on to what families can do about this, one of the things you and I have chatted about since we've had the good fortune of becoming friends in addition to therapist colleagues is the concept of different family meetings at different levels of wealth for different families.

Megan Janzen (25:17) and

Jean Blacklock (25:27) High net worth and ultra high net worth families of course have often consultants sessions. You know, there are many think tanks in the United States and in Canada that assist families at that level. But for families that aren't like that, what are your ideas about how a family that has important things to discuss, whether they're estate planning or health or, you know, how we're going to go about lending the money for the wedding or the mortgage to a child?

How a family can kind of think about talking those things through? Would you suggest sort of formality or more informal? Any thoughts that come to mind when I ask that question?

Megan Janzen (26:12) Yeah.

I mean, what comes to mind is it really depends on the emotional intelligence of the family or the family members. What are the relationships like within the family? Like for some people, I would strongly suggest, you know, if the means are there, do we need to bring in a facilitator for some of these conversations just to help keep us on track, to make sure everybody's voice gets heard?

Jean Blacklock (26:21) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Megan Janzen (26:39) To set some goals about what we want from this conversation. So there is like leadership facilitators or mediators or maybe a therapist that could help guide so that some of the emotional labor isn't like the family can't be It's so subjective. You're steeped in in all these details and what you said what so-and-so got for their wedding and who lives nearby who lives far away, right? So I think

Jean Blacklock (26:49) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Megan Janzen (27:08) I think ideally if having a facilitator is within the realm of possibility financially, would probably, that would be my leaning. But for some where maybe that's not possible. Maybe even just having an estate planning book that everyone can read and talk about, or you know, but I think if possible to have someone else steer the ship, that's

Jean Blacklock (27:13) Yeah.

Megan Janzen (27:37) to really hear what are other people's values or goals. I think that that would be helpful to the relationships and to the outcome.

Jean Blacklock (27:46) Yeah, well worth the money. I know that in the corporate world, when they bring in a facilitator for a management team, even a high functioning management team, with a facilitator, can access issues and conversations that aren't possible if that neutral outsider isn't there. So it would be the case with a family.

Megan Janzen (28:10) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (28:16) On just a one-on-one level, so moving away so much from the family and wealth and finances, what do you find in your practice are some of the ways in which people, well, I'll just say make mistakes with communication? When you think about high stakes conversations they're going to have or have had really with anyone in their life,

Megan Janzen (28:44) Hmm.

Jean Blacklock (28:44) What are some of the things that you wish your clients would do differently or less of? Well, you mull that over. I'll start with one. And that is, I sure wish people texted less. I'm all for texting, for making arrangements, and obviously for complimentary, happy type things.

Megan Janzen (28:58) Huh. Yeah?

Jean Blacklock (29:13) I'm always a little bit surprised at clients that have shared with me they've had a massive argument and then I learned that the entire thing was done over text. And I think, you know, maybe that's why it was a massive argument is because you did it over text. But what comes to mind for you?

Megan Janzen (29:23) my goodness, the amount of.

and Jean, I have come to learn when someone is telling me in session about an argument, just to be like, so how did this argument transpire? Because you're right, so often it is through text and the tone is lost, the body language is lost. We completely misunderstand someone's words, not only that, but we can stare at it. We can screenshot it and send it to someone else, right? Other family members.

Jean Blacklock (29:59) Yes. Yes.

Megan Janzen (30:02) So when you first said kind of quote unquote mistakes, and I'm gonna put myself in this human category here too, but just slow down when we're activated, right? Just slow down, be curious about what's happening for you. A thing I so often say is feelings just are, right? We can be angry, we can be sad, but what's really important is what we do with that.

Jean Blacklock (30:13) Mmm.

Excellent.

Megan Janzen (30:32) so I think just, you know, and if, we're feeling particularly activated or, know, in our quote unquote panic zone, we can't learn new things. So to pay attention to when the other person is, is in a fight, freeze response, they're not ready. They cannot hear your perspective in that moment. So it's wasted energy and for ourselves to get ourselves grounded. sometimes that means taking a step away.

I like what I often encourage people to do instead of those text messages, write out your thoughts. Maybe type them out into your computer, write that letter and just say everything that you want to say, but don't send it. Sleep on it and then come back to it. And actually what are the three things that are most important in this letter? If I, know, because if someone is outside of their window of capacity, suddenly they can't hear any of it.

So I think just slowing down and sleeping on things and then really figuring out, if I could only get three points out of these five across, what's most important to me?

Jean Blacklock (31:41) Yeah, couple that come to mind for me. I absolutely agree with everything you've said Megan I I Always like it when people really have you know take the long game when they do their best to Look at the the relationship like at the end of this discussion at the end of this difficulty What what is the state that I want this relationship to be in?

Megan Janzen (31:55) Hmm.

Jean Blacklock (32:11) And I think, you know, for me personally in difficult conversations or in clients that I've seen do things, I think if the focus is on how much this person matters to me as opposed to, you know, winning this particular battle, I think that adds a different flavour to a conversation. And then the other one is trite, but I guess things become trite because they're true and that is, you know, using the eye descriptor.

Megan Janzen (32:11) Hmm.

Jean Blacklock (32:40) how I'm feeling, I'm naming what's true for me as opposed to the six things that you did wrong and the dishes you left in the sink and you do this and you do that. Again, it's commonplace to go to defense and start using accusations, but it is using your earlier point about people getting their backup, nothing gets one's defenses up quick.

Megan Janzen (32:40) Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (33:08) quicker, more quickly than being blamed or having accusations put at them.

Megan Janzen (33:15) 100 and and if we're met with curiosity and we can own the feelings that are coming up for us and own that it's not just about what the other person's doing. It's also all the history that we're bringing into it. Absolutely. We're going to bring down the defense of the other person. There's going to be more room to be seen or heard. And I thought of when you were talking about this, like, do we want to be right or do we want to be in connection?

But then there's a balance to that that we also don't want to be too submissive and then later resentful. Right? So it's, I think, I think that, you know, I feel this way, or when this happens, I feel this way is definitely gonna get a lot more meeting of the minds than you did this. Or you made me feel this way, which is never really the case, right?

Jean Blacklock (34:07) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right, no, we can't cause a person to feel any way as much as we would like to sometimes. And then that brings us back again to the therapeutic relationship. I think when there is that relationship, we've done the work to establish a relationship with a therapist that we really trust, we really like, we know that they like us, and that's an important part of it. Because it is a human relationship. The right therapist

Megan Janzen (34:18) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (34:43) does really like their clients. I was just saying to my husband the other day how much I like all of my clients and it is a true statement. do and I know that they know that and in part, not in part, in very large part that's how the work is done because after a difficult conversation or after something tough going on in life, if you know you have this safe space that you can

Megan Janzen (35:10) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (35:11) go to and really say all the mean-spirited stuff and you know what you really think. Like it does provide a bit of a vent for the things that we, if we have the long game in relationships we might not want to be able, we might not want to share just in a know random manner.

Megan Janzen (35:22) So.

Mm-hmm. And knowing the safe places for that. And I think, and I would say even in the relationship, you know, there can also be conflict between the therapist and the client in the sense of we aren't as therapists as you know, gonna get everything right. We might miss something, but it's really seeing that repair. There can be a rupture, but can we repair?

as client and therapist and what happens in those, maybe they bring a client brings something that feels uncomfortable or we're thinking about something outside of session, we check in with our client about it in the next one, seeing that that relationship can actually survive conflict and experience a repair, I think really helps people see that they can do it in their other relationships.

Jean Blacklock (36:25) Exactly, exactly. I would say rupture and repair, that process, you know, it doesn't done properly. And the beauty of it is, is that it's almost always done properly because it's just two people really being vulnerable. It creates at the other side of it a greater intimacy than before the rupture happened.

Megan Janzen (36:52) Absolutely.

Jean Blacklock (36:54) because somebody has stepped forward and been vulnerable and said, I made a mistake there. I misspoke. I shouldn't have sent you all those texts. Whatever it was, can we find a way to talk this through? And you're absolutely right, Megan. If we do that in the therapeutic relationship, then people can see, I guess Gene's not really mad at me for raising...

that I didn't like she did something, you know, like it's like, relationships can survive these kinds of conversations.

Megan Janzen (37:29) Yeah, or maybe Jean was mad at me and she could move through it and forgive me and we can still have a relationship. We don't have to pretend that didn't happen. And then we're actually more connected to the person.

Jean Blacklock (37:41) Yeah, yeah, it's really good. So your thoughts on how wealth advisors who, again, they're chartered accountants, CFA's very skilled, very smart individuals, know all about the markets. They see a client really struggling with something, you know, name the problem. How might you suggest to him or her that maybe they could raise the idea of therapy?

Megan Janzen (37:47) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm Yeah, that's a that's a very good question. I think I think to have a roster like like a few names for these people that you're speaking about that work in that field of therapists that they might feel somewhat aligned with or, you know, they're comfortable with the way they conduct their their practice might be a helpful way of like, okay, these are three names, maybe you could reach out to one of these people. I'm you know, I'm

I'm seeing that you're really having a hard time with this. And to use a gym analogy, maybe we, instead of being in crisis, let's get in front of this and just see, might it be helpful to talk through this? Or maybe it doesn't feel helpful. And I think the client needs to be ready to go to the therapy. We can't coax them in if they aren't yet ready. So if you see someone come in with a ton of resistance,

Actually backing off is probably pretty important. Not to say I'm always good at this, but people have to sort of come to it and want it, I think before it can be very, before it can be helpful or productive.

Jean Blacklock (39:20) Yeah. And I would argue that for a wealth advisor that, you know, really wants to be the wealth advisor for the long run for an individual or a family, the very fact that they've had the courage to say that they've observed what they're seeing, that they've observed that an individual is really grieving or that there's something going on, although that feels really scary to people,

Megan Janzen (39:38) Yeah

Okay.

Jean Blacklock (39:52) In my experience, there's very few of us who don't like to be seen. And even when something that someone has noticed about us is hard, like to be recognized that, he saw that I was really struggling. It's actually, not an insult. It's a compliment that they cared enough that they said that and perhaps made the suggestion of like, and I love that idea you mentioned, Megan, about

actually having a roster of, in our case, Toronto psychotherapists or Saskatoon psychotherapists, wherever a person is practicing, to say, know, I know these people or I know that they're taking on clients. I think it's really valuable.

Megan Janzen (40:25) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think to what you said about experiential learning, I mean, to the wealth managers or the chartered accountants, if they feel like they might want to recommend this at some point, probably the best first step is to try it out themselves because it might be an easier way to say to a client, Hey, I was struggling with a thing and I tried this and I was just wondering about it for you. And we're talking about lowering defenses. That's one way to do that.

Jean Blacklock (41:09) Yeah, absolutely. And psychotherapy is not for everyone, it never will be, but for an individual, for a professional that has largely been in the, built their reputation in the area of financial matters and so on to step beyond their comfort zone and...

Megan Janzen (41:15) Mm-hmm. Agreed.

Jean Blacklock (41:30) see what psychotherapy is all about, to learn about it. There's terrific books on it. That book by Laurie Gottlieb that is actually called Maybe You Should Speak with Someone. it Maybe You Should Talk to Someone? Yeah, that is a fabulous book. It's very interesting. It's about a therapist who on half of the book is about her experience of being the client and the other half is her experience of being the therapist with all of the situations. I believe very carefully

Megan Janzen (41:34) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, maybe you should talk to someone. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jean Blacklock (41:58) made to be anonymous. I forget the actual techniques Laura used, it's yeah, for anyone that's interested in learning more about psychotherapy, think you'd be well, a person would be well advised to read that. Is there anything Megan that you were hoping we'd cover today that we didn't get to?

Megan Janzen (42:19) No, I mean, I think the only sort of a thing that came up for me a lot when I was thinking about having this conversation with Eugene and thinking about, you know, the meaning we make of money or our relationships with money, I think it's just really important. I'm speaking from a place of privilege here, but we're kind of talking about that world is what are our values around money?

And just the importance of identifying for ourselves or as wealth managers or as the clients of these wealth managers. What is the story I want to tell? What is most important to me about this? I really clarifying that rather than kind of winging it and that there's this just, and the word kind of like, what is it like to be grateful for where we are at? Why aren't we?

Jean Blacklock (43:01) Mm-hmm.

Megan Janzen (43:15) And especially as we're talking with families having conversations. I think to identify that is a really important piece to communication and satisfaction.

Jean Blacklock (43:29) Yeah, yeah, I really like that. Making money really just part of life and imbuing it with feelings more than just like $1,500 rent or $6,000 to take the family on a trip or something, but really like what it represents, what it means, how it affects you and I.

that kind of thing, I think really adds some richness to it.

Megan Janzen (44:01) Yeah, that's how I feel as well.

Jean Blacklock (44:05) Yeah. So for our listeners today, you can find Megan Jansen at her website under that same name, Megan Jansen. Also on GoodPeopleTherapy.com and Psychology Today, Megan as a listing. And all of those will be in the show notes. Megan, thank you ever so much for joining us. It's been a really great conversation. It's gone so quickly. I really appreciate you coming.

Megan Janzen (44:29) Thank you so much for inviting me, Jean. I'm honored.

Jean Blacklock (44:33) you're very welcome. Okay, thanks.

Megan Janzen (44:36) All right.