INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young people

INTRO: safe.

PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

PRODUCER: Being exposed to domestic abuse is a form of

PRODUCER: child abuse. Children don't need to be directly

PRODUCER: involved for this to be the case.

PRODUCER: They may have seen or heard or experienced the

PRODUCER: effects of domestic abuse in the family.

PRODUCER: This can have a big impact on a child's

PRODUCER: behaviour, brain development, education outcomes

PRODUCER: and overall wellbeing.

PRODUCER: In 2023-24, Childline counsellors

PRODUCER: delivered over 1,000 counselling sessions to

PRODUCER: children and young people whose main concern was

PRODUCER: domestic abuse.

PRODUCER: They discussed feeling scared, worried, unhappy,

PRODUCER: angry and helpless. In the same time

PRODUCER: period, the NSPCC helpline received over 6,800

PRODUCER: child welfare contacts where the main concern

PRODUCER: was domestic abuse.

PRODUCER: This episode of the podcast, recorded in

PRODUCER: September 2024, brings together representatives

PRODUCER: from the NSPCC Helpline and Childline

PRODUCER: to talk about the different ways domestic abuse

PRODUCER: affects babies, children and young people, and

PRODUCER: how you can spot the signs and support children

PRODUCER: who are affected.

PRODUCER: Here's Paddi Vint to introduce the discussion.

PADDI VINT: Hello there, my name is Paddi Vint and I'm

PADDI VINT: Development and Quality Manager within the

PADDI VINT: NSPCC Helpline.

PADDI VINT: I oversee a domestic abuse project.

PADDI VINT: I've got Cormac Nolan with me today.

CORMAC NOLAN: Hello, I'm Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the

CORMAC NOLAN: service heads in Childline, the 24 hour,

CORMAC NOLAN: seven day a week, 365 day a year

CORMAC NOLAN: helpline for children and young people.

PADDI VINT: I also have Joanne McKenna,

PADDI VINT: one of our domestic abuse practice advisors —

PADDI VINT: or DAPAs as we refer to them on the Helpline —

PADDI VINT: with me.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Hi Paddi. As you said, I'm Joanne McKenna

JOANNE MCKENNA: or Jo McKenna, and I'm one of the DAPAs —

JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse practice advisors — on the

JOANNE MCKENNA: Helpline. And my role on the Helpline is

JOANNE MCKENNA: we offer support to the Helpline

JOANNE MCKENNA: practitioners in terms of domestic abuse

JOANNE MCKENNA: calls. We have small caseloads

JOANNE MCKENNA: of high-risk domestic abuse cases, and we

JOANNE MCKENNA: also deliver training around domestic

JOANNE MCKENNA: abuse across the Helpline.

PADDI VINT: Sometimes it can be really helpful for

PADDI VINT: professionals to marry up what children

PADDI VINT: are telling us alongside their behaviour, and

PADDI VINT: that's why I felt it was really important to

PADDI VINT: try and do a joint podcast with Childline,

PADDI VINT: who are clearly best-placed to be able to shed

PADDI VINT: some light on the feelings and emotions that

PADDI VINT: children are telling their Childline

PADDI VINT: counsellors. And to marry that alongside what

PADDI VINT: adults are telling us from Jo in her DA work

PADDI VINT: on the Helpline.

PADDI VINT: But I'm also really conscious that some people

PADDI VINT: listening to the podcast might not actually

PADDI VINT: know who even calls the Helpline or what

PADDI VINT: the Helpline's about.

PADDI VINT: Jo, would you mind giving us a bit of an

PADDI VINT: overview of who contacts the helpline?

JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, course. Anybody that has worries or

JOANNE MCKENNA: concerns about a child — so it could be

JOANNE MCKENNA: parents and victims directly; it could be

JOANNE MCKENNA: teachers and safeguarding leads that want

JOANNE MCKENNA: to share some concerns; we get calls from

JOANNE MCKENNA: sports coaches, employers of the

JOANNE MCKENNA: staff, neighbours; family members,

JOANNE MCKENNA: including grandparents, older siblings,

JOANNE MCKENNA: aunties and uncles; to churches

JOANNE MCKENNA: and faith leaders and support workers.

JOANNE MCKENNA: So, any adult really that has worries and

JOANNE MCKENNA: concerns for children in terms of

JOANNE MCKENNA: neglect, physical abuse, emotional harm,

JOANNE MCKENNA: sexual abuse and online safety.

JOANNE MCKENNA: What we're seeing more and more and more

JOANNE MCKENNA: is domestic abuse within the Helpline, and

JOANNE MCKENNA: that's coming through daily; we get loads

JOANNE MCKENNA: and loads of calls around domestic abuse.

PADDI VINT: And I'm right in thinking the Helpline's there

PADDI VINT: for those small queries and those small

PADDI VINT: worries right through, as you mentioned there,

PADDI VINT: to some of the bigger things as well?

JOANNE MCKENNA: Yes. So we often get parents

JOANNE MCKENNA: that can ring in around boundaries for the

JOANNE MCKENNA: children — if the children are acting up

JOANNE MCKENNA: within the home — looking for parenting

JOANNE MCKENNA: strategies.

JOANNE MCKENNA: And then once we speak to the

JOANNE MCKENNA: parents or the adults that are ringing in

JOANNE MCKENNA: and we do a little bit of unpicking, we

JOANNE MCKENNA: tend to find that domestic abuse is one of

JOANNE MCKENNA: the main factors within that family home.

PADDI VINT: That's right, Jo, thank you so much.

PADDI VINT: And Cormac, in terms of

PADDI VINT: Childline, what are those children and young

PADDI VINT: people telling Childline about their

PADDI VINT: experience of domestic abuse?

CORMAC NOLAN: We do hear from a very high number of

CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people in Childline.

CORMAC NOLAN: And what we hear from those children and

CORMAC NOLAN: young people are concerns about arguments

CORMAC NOLAN: in the home, arguments that are

CORMAC NOLAN: often not one-off arguments.

CORMAC NOLAN: More than bickering, and that's quoting a

CORMAC NOLAN: young person, actually saying that.

CORMAC NOLAN: They talk to us about aggressive behaviour

CORMAC NOLAN: in the home, they talk about threats being

CORMAC NOLAN: made, they talk about coercive and

CORMAC NOLAN: controlling behaviour, often around

CORMAC NOLAN: access to money and resources within the

CORMAC NOLAN: home and sometimes leaving the home or being

CORMAC NOLAN: able to leave the home. That goes right on

CORMAC NOLAN: through to physical violence.

CORMAC NOLAN: We hear a lot, on Childline, I've seen a

CORMAC NOLAN: lot, children and young people talking about

CORMAC NOLAN: things being thrown to physically hurt

CORMAC NOLAN: people in the relationships.

CORMAC NOLAN: The children and young people talk to us

CORMAC NOLAN: about domestic abuse, but not in the

CORMAC NOLAN: conventional framework of domestic abuse,

CORMAC NOLAN: because they often don't use that term

CORMAC NOLAN: 'domestic abuse'. And often what they're

CORMAC NOLAN: doing is checking out what is happening, But

CORMAC NOLAN: through our conversation, we can piece

CORMAC NOLAN: together that what has happened to them is

CORMAC NOLAN: domestic abuse and while that's a difficult

CORMAC NOLAN: conversation, it's an important one because

CORMAC NOLAN: it frames what's going on for a young

CORMAC NOLAN: person.

PADDI VINT: Cormac, that's really important, that you've

PADDI VINT: mentioned there about a child's use of

PADDI VINT: language. What adults may see as domestic

PADDI VINT: abuse, for a child's frame of mind at that

PADDI VINT: stage, they're still thinking of arguments

PADDI VINT: and aggressive behaviour.

PADDI VINT: It's not always that language of domestic

PADDI VINT: abuse is there.

CORMAC NOLAN: That's true in so many issues that children

CORMAC NOLAN: and young people bring to us.

CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the rules we offer in Childline

CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of the support is to help a

CORMAC NOLAN: child or young person to understand better

CORMAC NOLAN: what is going on around them and what is

CORMAC NOLAN: going on for them.

CORMAC NOLAN: We want to move that on, of course, to ways

CORMAC NOLAN: to cope and ways to get things to stop.

CORMAC NOLAN: And for some young people that can be

CORMAC NOLAN: relatively quick and relatively

CORMAC NOLAN: straightforward. But, as we all know, no two

CORMAC NOLAN: cases are the same.

CORMAC NOLAN: So there is complexity.

CORMAC NOLAN: We do need to take time to understand the

CORMAC NOLAN: young person's safety arrangements, exactly

CORMAC NOLAN: what's going on at home, the young person's

CORMAC NOLAN: own understanding of what's going on for

CORMAC NOLAN: them, potential risk to other children and

CORMAC NOLAN: young people as well.

CORMAC NOLAN: So it does build up from an alarming

CORMAC NOLAN: picture to quite a complex picture and we

CORMAC NOLAN: need to take time to understand from a young

CORMAC NOLAN: person what's going on for them in a very

CORMAC NOLAN: child-centred way. And as you said, Paddi,

CORMAC NOLAN: using language that is not technical

CORMAC NOLAN: language, clinical language, but language

CORMAC NOLAN: that is suitable for the age group that

CORMAC NOLAN: we're dealing with. And that can vary, too.

PADDI VINT: Thank you, Cormac. And Jo, I'm conscious as

PADDI VINT: well that we sometimes have contacts on the

PADDI VINT: Helpline as well, where non-abusive parents

PADDI VINT: are contacting us, sounding out if something

PADDI VINT: is abusive or not.

PADDI VINT: So even for adults, that term 'domestic abuse'

PADDI VINT: can sometimes not necessarily really

PADDI VINT: reflect or resonate with them until they talk

PADDI VINT: to a child protection expert or a domestic

PADDI VINT: abuse practice adviser on the Helpline.

JOANNE MCKENNA: The term domestic abuse is such a formal

JOANNE MCKENNA: term and some people, they don't want to

JOANNE MCKENNA: be associated with domestic abuse.

JOANNE MCKENNA: And as you say, a lot of victims don't

JOANNE MCKENNA: know they're in an abusive relationship,

JOANNE MCKENNA: as do the children. And it's only when

JOANNE MCKENNA: they'll share things, for example, getting

JOANNE MCKENNA: my phone checked all the time.

JOANNE MCKENNA: I can't move anywhere. I can't go

JOANNE MCKENNA: anywhere. I've got no access to money.

JOANNE MCKENNA: I'm getting undermined with the children.

JOANNE MCKENNA: The other parent's getting the children to

JOANNE MCKENNA: call me names. To when we read that back

JOANNE MCKENNA: to them and say, "do you know, do you think this

JOANNE MCKENNA: is abuse? This looks to me like domestic

JOANNE MCKENNA: abuse." And it's only when we go through

JOANNE MCKENNA: the different tactics of abuse, the victim

JOANNE MCKENNA: will say, "you know what, yeah that's me.

JOANNE MCKENNA: That's what's exactly what's happening to

JOANNE MCKENNA: me." And then that tends to open the doors

JOANNE MCKENNA: to getting that support in place.

JOANNE MCKENNA: In terms of some of the professionals,

JOANNE MCKENNA: they'll ring up not just because of

JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse, but they will say this

JOANNE MCKENNA: child's coming into school late all the

JOANNE MCKENNA: time. They're off all the time, they're

JOANNE MCKENNA: not ready to learn when they get here.

JOANNE MCKENNA: They can't concentrate.

JOANNE MCKENNA: I'm seeing things withing their artwork.

JOANNE MCKENNA: They're presenting angry or they're

JOANNE MCKENNA: withdrawn. And it's when we can turn round

JOANNE MCKENNA: and we can say to them, have you asked

JOANNE MCKENNA: about the lived experience, do we know

JOANNE MCKENNA: what's going on? Are the parents saying

JOANNE MCKENNA: things within the playground? And it's

JOANNE MCKENNA: about putting those jigsaw pieces together

JOANNE MCKENNA: with the child and getting that child's

JOANNE MCKENNA: voice and learning more about what's going

JOANNE MCKENNA: on within that home.

PADDI VINT: Thanks, Jo. So, you know, obviously we were

PADDI VINT: chatting there about some of the way it

PADDI VINT: presents and the Helpline has received over

PADDI VINT: 6,500 contacts in relation

PADDI VINT: to domestic abuse from adults.

PADDI VINT: And as you quite rightly say, it's not just

PADDI VINT: the non-abusive parents who are contacting us,

PADDI VINT: it's those neighbours and parents

PADDI VINT: and professionals.

PADDI VINT: And it does seem to differ slightly from what

PADDI VINT: Cormac is telling us, what children are

PADDI VINT: telling us, and how it's being presented.

PADDI VINT: Tell me a little bit more about how maybe,

PADDI VINT: when professionals phone us, what are they

PADDI VINT: saying? What are they telling us that

PADDI VINT: children's behaviours are like?

JOANNE MCKENNA: So it could be... A child could be

JOANNE MCKENNA: particularly very, very angry all the

JOANNE MCKENNA: time; argumentative, smashing things up,

JOANNE MCKENNA: getting involved with criminality. Bunking

JOANNE MCKENNA: off school and skipping school.

JOANNE MCKENNA: So it could be a range of things.

JOANNE MCKENNA: In terms of babies, it's

JOANNE MCKENNA: how that child's presenting.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Is it presenting as neglected, is it

JOANNE MCKENNA: crying all the time?

JOANNE MCKENNA: Is it reluctant to go to a certain adult

JOANNE MCKENNA: because it can't use its voice?

JOANNE MCKENNA: So it's about using their observational

JOANNE MCKENNA: skills and saying this child, this baby is

JOANNE MCKENNA: not presenting normally and reaching the

JOANNE MCKENNA: milestones that they should be reaching.

PADDI VINT: Because often things like that could get

PADDI VINT: overlooked as 101 other reasons

PADDI VINT: other than domestic abuse.

PADDI VINT: So as you say, it's really important that we

PADDI VINT: have those conversations.

PADDI VINT: Cormac, in terms of, you know, Jo had

PADDI VINT: mentioned there and yourself had mentioned

PADDI VINT: about coercive control within those kind of

PADDI VINT: behaviours and relationships.

PADDI VINT: Is that something that Childline are seeing

PADDI VINT: more and more within the relationships?

CORMAC NOLAN: Yeah, we are definitely seeing more of that

CORMAC NOLAN: in relationships and we are seeing it

CORMAC NOLAN: in relationships between young people as

CORMAC NOLAN: well. And I think one of the big

CORMAC NOLAN: misunderstandings that young people still

CORMAC NOLAN: bring to us is that domastic abuse can only

CORMAC NOLAN: happen in the home between a married couple.

CORMAC NOLAN: And I think that's something we try and

CORMAC NOLAN: explain to them, that it's within a

CORMAC NOLAN: relationship setting and it doesn't have to

CORMAC NOLAN: be someone who lives in the home on a

CORMAC NOLAN: regular basis or who is directly connected

CORMAC NOLAN: to the family. Yeah, we definitely do see

CORMAC NOLAN: more about coercive control in

CORMAC NOLAN: relationships, as we said earlier, around

CORMAC NOLAN: money, around access to other people, about

CORMAC NOLAN: seeing and visiting family or about family

CORMAC NOLAN: coming over. And children and young people

CORMAC NOLAN: often know that that's not normal.

CORMAC NOLAN: They know that that's not right, but they

CORMAC NOLAN: just can't piece it together.

CORMAC NOLAN: They don't have the opportunity or the space

CORMAC NOLAN: to think about it. And that's one of the

CORMAC NOLAN: things Childline tries to offer them is the

CORMAC NOLAN: space to think about it.

CORMAC NOLAN: Can I just say, Paddi, as well, it was

CORMAC NOLAN: interesting listening to Jo there when she

CORMAC NOLAN: was talking about the acting out behaviours

CORMAC NOLAN: that they see in children and young people.

CORMAC NOLAN: Often we hear from children and young people

CORMAC NOLAN: about hidden behaviours. Things like self

CORMAC NOLAN: harm, about poor mental health and

CORMAC NOLAN: addictions, eating disorders, things like

CORMAC NOLAN: that; that the young person struggles with

CORMAC NOLAN: and struggles with on their own, but is as a

CORMAC NOLAN: result of the emotional disturbance and the

CORMAC NOLAN: emotional feelings that are created for them

CORMAC NOLAN: and the lack of support, often that is there

CORMAC NOLAN: for the young person, when they see this

CORMAC NOLAN: thing going on in the home setting or in a

CORMAC NOLAN: parent's relationship.

PADDI VINT: Cormac, would it be fair to say that sometimes

PADDI VINT: these behaviours that are outwardly presenting

PADDI VINT: to the NSPCC Helpline are

PADDI VINT: driven from a place of fear for some of the

PADDI VINT: young people?

CORMAC NOLAN: Absolutely. It's a fear of the physical

CORMAC NOLAN: circumstances. It's a fear of the emotional

CORMAC NOLAN: circumstances. But there's also a fear for

CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people of what is going

CORMAC NOLAN: to happen. What's going to happen next?

CORMAC NOLAN: Am I at risk of physical harm?

CORMAC NOLAN: Are my siblings at risk of physical harm?

CORMAC NOLAN: If, following a conversation with Childline,

CORMAC NOLAN: if this ends up being reported — which

CORMAC NOLAN: could be an option, we wouldn't force a

CORMAC NOLAN: young person into anything unless we had

CORMAC NOLAN: major concerns, unless Childline had major

CORMAC NOLAN: concerns — what will happen next?

CORMAC NOLAN: Will we be separated as a family?

CORMAC NOLAN: Will things go on as they were.

CORMAC NOLAN: There is fear but that fear is fed by a

CORMAC NOLAN: number of concerns for the young person.

PADDI VINT: It's interesting to see that young people are

PADDI VINT: now recognising this coercive controlling

PADDI VINT: behaviour, which could be a fairly new term

PADDI VINT: for a lot of people.

PADDI VINT: But it's really important that we reflect that

PADDI VINT: it's a term now that's used in legislation,

PADDI VINT: which is incredible, and it gives that power

PADDI VINT: and ownership back to the non-abusive parent,

PADDI VINT: to the victim themselves and to the children

PADDI VINT: that are affected. And it's also really

PADDI VINT: important that we also reflect now that in

PADDI VINT: legislation, we're seeing children as very

PADDI VINT: much co-victims and not the kind of

PADDI VINT: 'seen-and-not-heard' version where children

PADDI VINT: are just merely in the periphery of these

PADDI VINT: situations that are playing out.

PADDI VINT: That we're actually recognising these children

PADDI VINT: are direct victims themselves.

PADDI VINT: Is that something that is reflected when

PADDI VINT: people contact Helpline, Jo?

JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that

JOANNE MCKENNA: we're moving away from a child witnessing

JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse to being a victim in their

JOANNE MCKENNA: own right. A lot of the children that

JOANNE MCKENNA: are coming through within the families

JOANNE MCKENNA: that we're dealing with, they're often

JOANNE MCKENNA: caretakers or protective of being

JOANNE MCKENNA: the in-between with the parents.

JOANNE MCKENNA: You know, the go-between.

JOANNE MCKENNA: We're finding that young people and

JOANNE MCKENNA: children are getting tags put on them so

JOANNE MCKENNA: the abusive parent can follow where

JOANNE MCKENNA: they are, where they can spy on them.

JOANNE MCKENNA: They're getting asked questions about the

JOANNE MCKENNA: other parent. Who are their parent's with,

JOANNE MCKENNA: what they're doing, what they're spending

JOANNE MCKENNA: time with, withholding maintenance

JOANNE MCKENNA: payments. Those kind of things stop that

JOANNE MCKENNA: child from being able to experience good,

JOANNE MCKENNA: nice things and get the care that they

JOANNE MCKENNA: need. Name-calling the other parent,

JOANNE MCKENNA: undermining. And it's the child who's

JOANNE MCKENNA: in the centre of all this, and it's the

JOANNE MCKENNA: child that's impacted the most.

PADDI VINT: So that post-separation abuse very much being

PADDI VINT: a key feature in the ongoing abuse between

PADDI VINT: the parents, but with the child being a direct

PADDI VINT: victim within that.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Absolutely Paddi, yeah. And it's the

JOANNE MCKENNA: impact on the child's mental health and

JOANNE MCKENNA: who that child should side with.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Should that child be telling one parent

JOANNE MCKENNA: what the parent's doing and that

JOANNE MCKENNA: questioning. And they're not allowed to be

JOANNE MCKENNA: children. They're that go-between and that

JOANNE MCKENNA: caretaker of the two adults.

PADDI VINT: Jo mentions their how some children

PADDI VINT: take on those protective roles and they're the

PADDI VINT: kind of caretaker roles that we sometimes see.

PADDI VINT: And there is a level of responsibility that

PADDI VINT: some young people potentially take on board

PADDI VINT: when they're in that situation, particularly

PADDI VINT: in the home environment.

PADDI VINT: Cormac, what would you— what would your advice

PADDI VINT: to those young people be around their

PADDI VINT: responsibility or what shouldn't be their

PADDI VINT: responsibility?

CORMAC NOLAN: It's very clear to Childline that it's not

CORMAC NOLAN: a child's responsibility to fix

CORMAC NOLAN: what is going on at home, and it is not a

CORMAC NOLAN: child's responsibility to long-term look

CORMAC NOLAN: after all the needs of siblings.

CORMAC NOLAN: A term we often use in Childline when we're

CORMAC NOLAN: talking to them because of what they say to

CORMAC NOLAN: us is it's not a child's fault either.

CORMAC NOLAN: Some children can feel that they are

CORMAC NOLAN: responsible for what is happening in terms

CORMAC NOLAN: of having caused it. That's nonsense.

CORMAC NOLAN: Of course not.

CORMAC NOLAN: But it's also not a child's responsibility

CORMAC NOLAN: to fix it. What we want to do is take that

CORMAC NOLAN: responsibility in Childline.

CORMAC NOLAN: To take the responsibility off the child or

CORMAC NOLAN: young person, to help them understand what

CORMAC NOLAN: is going and collaborate with them to

CORMAC NOLAN: get help and support; how to cope

CORMAC NOLAN: with what is going on, how to live an

CORMAC NOLAN: ordinary childhood and how to get help to

CORMAC NOLAN: make things stop so it is not a child's

CORMAC NOLAN: responsibility to fix things or make things

CORMAC NOLAN: better. They may well feel that, and part of

CORMAC NOLAN: the conversation with Childline can be about

CORMAC NOLAN: teasing that out and helping a young person

CORMAC NOLAN: to understand the complexity that is there

CORMAC NOLAN: and that blame or responsibility does not

CORMAC NOLAN: begin or end with them.

PADDI VINT: I certainly remember as a Helpline

PADDI VINT: practitioner, taking a call from an adult

PADDI VINT: sibling who had left university, and it's

PADDI VINT: quite poignant at the time now — that this is

PADDI VINT: the time for older siblings leaving to start

PADDI VINT: their university journey.

PADDI VINT: And I always remember a contact we received

PADDI VINT: from a young student who had just started

PADDI VINT: their first year, worried about leaving

PADDI VINT: the home environment because they were the one

PADDI VINT: who were that kind of protective factor.

PADDI VINT: That when there had been an incident the night

PADDI VINT: before, they got their brother and sister up

PADDI VINT: and dressed for school, they gave them their

PADDI VINT: breakfast, they made sure they got picked up

PADDI VINT: from school on time.

PADDI VINT: And her concern was she needed to be out

PADDI VINT: of that environment. And she knew that.

PADDI VINT: But her biggest worry was that she was leaving

PADDI VINT: behind those two younger siblings in the home.

PADDI VINT: Jo, I'm just wondering, is that something that

PADDI VINT: you see frequently as well?

JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, we do. Sadly, we do get lots of

JOANNE MCKENNA: siblings calling up.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Young people are worried about their

JOANNE MCKENNA: siblings and the parent that's being abuse

JOANNE MCKENNA: and they do feel that responsibility.

JOANNE MCKENNA: We can reassure them, validate them and

JOANNE MCKENNA: say, you know, you're not responsible.

JOANNE MCKENNA: As Cormac said, you're not responsible for

JOANNE MCKENNA: this. This is the responsibility of the

JOANNE MCKENNA: abusive parents and we can get you the

JOANNE MCKENNA: help and we can get you that support.

JOANNE MCKENNA: So, yeah, we do see a lot.

PADDI VINT: What safeguarding actions should be taken

PADDI VINT: by professionals if they do have concerns?

PADDI VINT: That they're seeing behaviours played out by

PADDI VINT: children. They may or may not have a direct

PADDI VINT: disclosure of what's happening in the home.

PADDI VINT: What can professionals working with those

PADDI VINT: children and young people do to safeguard

PADDI VINT: them, Jo?

JOANNE MCKENNA: They can start by actually speaking to the

JOANNE MCKENNA: child and listening to the child.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Learning about their experiences of what's

JOANNE MCKENNA: going on within the home.

JOANNE MCKENNA: You know, being interested in that child.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Following their safeguarding policy for

JOANNE MCKENNA: one, especially if it's in a school or

JOANNE MCKENNA: sports coaching. Every agency

JOANNE MCKENNA: or every organisation should have some

JOANNE MCKENNA: kinds of safeguarding policy if they're

JOANNE MCKENNA: working directly with children.

JOANNE MCKENNA: And getting advice, further advice,

JOANNE MCKENNA: calling the helpline and saying, you know,

JOANNE MCKENNA: things aren't sitting right with me.

JOANNE MCKENNA: I've got this child displaying these kinds

JOANNE MCKENNA: of behaviours.

JOANNE MCKENNA: We can help with those referrals to

JOANNE MCKENNA: safeguarding agencies such as children's

JOANNE MCKENNA: social care and the police.

JOANNE MCKENNA: So it's about multi-agency working, Paddi.

JOANNE MCKENNA: It's not just about sitting on these

JOANNE MCKENNA: worries and concerns. If an agency's got

JOANNE MCKENNA: any concerns, we need to act on it and

JOANNE MCKENNA: safeguard that child.

PADDI VINT: I also think that sometimes those small — what

PADDI VINT: could maybe be insignificant — things that

PADDI VINT: professionals are maybe seeing— so little

PADDI VINT: things, they're late one day, maybe it's a

PADDI VINT: Friday after pick-up or drop-off.

PADDI VINT: Then the following week it's the same.

PADDI VINT: Then they've come in and they've forgotten

PADDI VINT: kit, or they're a little bit upset and they're

PADDI VINT: acting out. In isolation, those things may

PADDI VINT: seem quite small, but it's when you start to

PADDI VINT: record them and create a timeline and a

PADDI VINT: chronology of those behaviours

PADDI VINT: that you're seeing, how the child's appearing,

PADDI VINT: going home or coming back, those are sometimes

PADDI VINT: key things that can really support

PADDI VINT: your sense that something's not right.

PADDI VINT: When you actually look back those could what

PADDI VINT: be small, insignificant things can actually

PADDI VINT: appear to have a much bigger part to play.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, and we do promote that with the

JOANNE MCKENNA: victims that we work with when there's

JOANNE MCKENNA: children in post-separation abuse.

JOANNE MCKENNA: It's about can you see a difference in

JOANNE MCKENNA: your child when they come back from being

JOANNE MCKENNA: with that parent. What are they like

JOANNE MCKENNA: before they go? Is there any change in the

JOANNE MCKENNA: behaviour, are they acting up when they

JOANNE MCKENNA: come back? And we do advise to keep a log

JOANNE MCKENNA: of that because, further on the line,

JOANNE MCKENNA: should the family court have to get

JOANNE MCKENNA: involved, that can be used to demonstrate

JOANNE MCKENNA: the child's voice of how they feel about

JOANNE MCKENNA: that other parent.

PADDI VINT: For me as well, I don't think there's ever too

PADDI VINT: early a time to start introducing healthy

PADDI VINT: and unhealthy relationships.

PADDI VINT: I think it's something that we need to become

PADDI VINT: really good at as professionals, about calling

PADDI VINT: out behaviours that we see as maybe

PADDI VINT: being unhelpful or unhealthy.

PADDI VINT: Would that be fair and true from a Childline

PADDI VINT: point of view as well?

CORMAC NOLAN: Absolutely.

CORMAC NOLAN: We also have content on the Childline

CORMAC NOLAN: website around healthy and unhealthy

CORMAC NOLAN: relationships, and that has stemmed from the

CORMAC NOLAN: number of contacts that we have that we

CORMAC NOLAN: talked about earlier around coercive

CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour. Children and young people feeling

CORMAC NOLAN: that something's not right, but not knowing

CORMAC NOLAN: exactly what that is or understanding the

CORMAC NOLAN: extent of it.

PADDI VINT: We understand for anybody talking about

PADDI VINT: domestic abuse, it isn't easy for adults

PADDI VINT: and absolutely true it's the same that it's

PADDI VINT: not always easy for children and young people.

PADDI VINT: And I remember we had a parent contact us

PADDI VINT: to tell us that her son, he'd been quite

PADDI VINT: uncomfortable with his father and stepmother.

PADDI VINT: They were shouting and, as you said, arguing

PADDI VINT: was the terminology that he had used, but it

PADDI VINT: had been dismissed by the father when mum

PADDI VINT: spoke to him. But a few weeks later,

PADDI VINT: children's services contacted mum and said

PADDI VINT: that there had actually been a domestic abuse

PADDI VINT: incident in the home with the father and the

PADDI VINT: stepmom and that her son wouldn't be able to

PADDI VINT: stay there any further.

PADDI VINT: And again, mum really struggled with just

PADDI VINT: chatting to her son about what happened

PADDI VINT: or even to get any information.

PADDI VINT: It was as if he was kind of shutting down.

PADDI VINT: What do children and young people tell

PADDI VINT: Childline about how they want to be supported?

PADDI VINT: Because I'm conscious that sometimes as adults

PADDI VINT: we can be really well-meaning, but we

PADDI VINT: don't always get it right.

PADDI VINT: And we come from a place of what would help

PADDI VINT: us, but that's maybe not how children want to

PADDI VINT: be supported.

CORMAC NOLAN: I think that's a really important question

CORMAC NOLAN: because the focus has to be on a child

CORMAC NOLAN: or young person and it's a dangerous

CORMAC NOLAN: assumption to make that the child or young

CORMAC NOLAN: person doesn't know what they want or

CORMAC NOLAN: doesn't know what's best for them.

CORMAC NOLAN: So we spend time at Childline trying to

CORMAC NOLAN: figure out what a child wants to happen.

CORMAC NOLAN: I think ultimately the obvious answer to

CORMAC NOLAN: that question is they want what's happening

CORMAC NOLAN: to stop. But we all know that that's not a

CORMAC NOLAN: straightforward process.

CORMAC NOLAN: So we can break that process

CORMAC NOLAN: up into little pieces with a young person.

CORMAC NOLAN: What can they do to protect themselves?

CORMAC NOLAN: What can they do to distract themselves?

CORMAC NOLAN: How can they cope with the arguing when it's

CORMAC NOLAN: happening? How can they find a space and a

CORMAC NOLAN: time for themselves?

CORMAC NOLAN: Ultimately, they want things to go back to

CORMAC NOLAN: how they were before this happened to a

CORMAC NOLAN: happier time. Often they'll say they want to

CORMAC NOLAN: be like other families, because when they're

CORMAC NOLAN: going to school, they're not hearing their

CORMAC NOLAN: peers talking about abuse necessarily, or

CORMAC NOLAN: domestic abuse taking place in the home.

CORMAC NOLAN: So they want things to stop.

CORMAC NOLAN: They want to feel normal.

CORMAC NOLAN: They want things to be normal for them and

CORMAC NOLAN: they want them and their siblings to be

CORMAC NOLAN: safe. And sometimes children and young

CORMAC NOLAN: people who speak to Childline have got some

CORMAC NOLAN: of their own ideas and have already got some

CORMAC NOLAN: strategies in place. And sometimes it can be

CORMAC NOLAN: just about confirming and affirming that for

CORMAC NOLAN: the young person. On a more basic level —

CORMAC NOLAN: and this is true of any topic — children and

CORMAC NOLAN: young people also just want a space where

CORMAC NOLAN: they can express what's going on.

CORMAC NOLAN: They want somewhere where someone who is

CORMAC NOLAN: impartial and supportive will listen to what

CORMAC NOLAN: they have to say, will help them to

CORMAC NOLAN: understand, piece things together, be

CORMAC NOLAN: accepting of what's going on.

CORMAC NOLAN: Yes, non-judgemental, and will give them

CORMAC NOLAN: time and space and, I think really crucially

CORMAC NOLAN: for Childline, Paddi, be available when they

CORMAC NOLAN: need them to be available because Childline

CORMAC NOLAN: is a 24 hour a day, seven day a week service

CORMAC NOLAN: with a number of ways which children and

CORMAC NOLAN: young people can contact them. And for a lot

CORMAC NOLAN: of children and young people we know sometimes

CORMAC NOLAN: late at night is maybe the only time that

CORMAC NOLAN: they can contact or in the morning on the

CORMAC NOLAN: way to school. So I think all of those

CORMAC NOLAN: things are what children and young people

CORMAC NOLAN: want from us as an organisation.

PADDI VINT: And certainly those are all the skills there

PADDI VINT: you said — you know, being that impartial,

PADDI VINT: accepting, non-judgemental — those can

PADDI VINT: all be things that other professionals who are

PADDI VINT: supporting that young person can bring.

PADDI VINT: Certainly a teacher, a sports coach...

PADDI VINT: As you say, creating that space to have

PADDI VINT: those conversations and to work through

PADDI VINT: those issues with the child can be really

PADDI VINT: important and powerful for that child because

PADDI VINT: it's not always the parent that's going to

PADDI VINT: be able to offer that support.

PADDI VINT: We do need to look to our counsellors like

PADDI VINT: yourselves and Childline and those other

PADDI VINT: special adults in that child's life to be able

PADDI VINT: to support that.

PADDI VINT: Thank you, Jo and Cormac, it's been great to

PADDI VINT: be able to bring together two sides of

PADDI VINT: a story from the NSPCC, one from the Helpline

PADDI VINT: and one from Childline, and seeing how

PADDI VINT: actually, while there may be differences, they

PADDI VINT: certainly do cross over.

PADDI VINT: I think that's been hopefully really useful

PADDI VINT: for some professionals listening to the

PADDI VINT: podcast. Thank you very much for your time.

JOANNE MCKENNA: Thanks very much. It's been great speaking

JOANNE MCKENNA: to you both.

CORMAC NOLAN: Thank you very much Paddi. Thank you,

CORMAC NOLAN: Joanne.

PADDI VINT: If anybody would like further information or

PADDI VINT: has concerns for a child, they're very welcome

PADDI VINT: to contact the NSPCC Helpline on

PADDI VINT: 0808 800 5000, or

PADDI VINT: drop us an email to help@NSPCC.org.uk.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

OUTRO: Podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content

OUTRO: was up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and

OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.

OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

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