Jean Blacklock (00:01) Hello everyone and welcome to Beyond the Bank. When we think about wealth management, we often think about portfolios, cash flow forecasts, shareholder agreements and insurance policies. But of course, behind each of these is a human being, or a couple or family. And wherever there are people, there are thoughts and feelings and emotions that need to be addressed if the goal is to really provide wealth management clients with the guidance they need. With this less subjective and more subjective reality in mind,

Sandra Corelli (00:14) you

Jean Blacklock (00:30) We'll be welcoming guests to the podcast who are psychotherapists, coaches, leadership development consultants, mediators, and more. And today I'm really delighted to welcome Sandra Corelli, the founder and chief executive officer of Humanicity Consulting Group, a boutique leadership development and coaching firm with a mission to create a more human world of work. Sandra brings international experience across industries in the areas of communication, conflict management, leadership presence, and inclusion.

Welcome, Sandra.

Sandra Corelli (01:01) Nice to be here.

Jean Blacklock (01:03) Thank you. So Sandra, I thought talking about humanicity would be a great place for us to start today. Can you share a bit about when and why you started your firm and how you and your firm support clients?

Sandra Corelli (01:17) Sounds great. Thank you so much for having me, Jean. I'm excited for our conversation today. And so I officially introduced humanicity to the world four years ago. And although I started it as a side hustle almost eight years ago now, and so it was really an opportunity for me at that time to be a creative outlet. I love to build and I love to connect and help others and decided four years ago that I wanted to...

do this full time. And so I launched it to the world four years ago. And as you mentioned, our purpose and mission at Humanicity is to create a more human world of work. And we offer three services to our clients. And so the first one is around workshops, leadership development, keynotes that we offer on a variety of different topics surrounding human leadership. And this could be everything from

the art of giving feedback to presentation and communication skills, to emotional intelligence, to building cultures of inclusion and building psychological safety on teams, as well as areas of well-being and resilience and mental health. We also offer one-on-one coaching and group coaching, and then consulting services to different clients as well.

Jean Blacklock (02:35) Terrific. You mentioned there Sandra that you've had the firm for four years, but before that it was a bit of a side hustle. So during that time, I believe you were in financial services. Was that your previous experience? So that's really interesting. Yeah. It's super relevant for our conversation, which circles around wealth management and that experience in financial services yourself must be...

Sandra Corelli (02:48) Yes, yes.

Jean Blacklock (03:04) really help you now in your work? Do you find that some of your clients or many of your clients are in the financial services or wealth management area?

Sandra Corelli (03:13) Yes, many of my clients are in financial services and wealth management. It's over the years of being in financial services, it's obviously become a big part of my network. And so I do find that I'm supporting a lot of clients within financial services. That being said, I also work in other industries like healthcare or retail manufacturing. And so it is quite a variety.

Jean Blacklock (03:22) Yeah, of course.

Right. So listeners today that are in the financial services area, maybe perhaps more specifically the wealth management area for high net worth or ultra high net worth clients, can you speak a little bit about the kinds of resources in your firm or in your work that might be useful to them as a boutique firm or for their clients? What comes to mind when you think about that particular type of client?

Sandra Corelli (04:02) Yeah, so with that particular type of client, and when I think about financial services, a lot of the workshops that I lead around leadership and really elevating your impact as a leader from wherever you are on your leadership journey today. And so we all have different levels of leadership experience. So whether you're a who's starting out or you're quite seasoned in your career as a leader, it's really thinking about how can you take your leadership to the next level and really ensure you're aligned.

Jean Blacklock (04:07) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sandra Corelli (04:32) to the leader you want to be or become. And humanicity can really help you both in the self-discovery process of that, either through our workshops or through our one-on-one coaching, as well as help you work on those areas that you want to take to the next level. So whether that's your communication skills and your presentation skills, whether that's ensuring that you are having effective

conversations with your team, effective feedback conversations and delivering feedback in an effective way. Or if it's about building psychological safety on your team and ensuring that you have a team that's inclusive and supporting each other. Or as we know in every industry, not just financial services, there's a lot of pressure.

on teams and a lot of stress that individuals are going through for a variety of different reasons. And so we offer different tools and strategies to really help prevent burnout and support building a wellbeing strategy within your organization.

Jean Blacklock (05:34) Mm-hmm.

Well, I have a couple of questions. The first one is, given that you have been in the human area for well over a decade now, what have you seen in terms of shifts, in terms of leadership challenges in recent years? Has there been a trend toward particular things that leaders at different levels are struggling with and are hoping for assistance from you?

Sandra Corelli (06:05) Yeah, so I would say...

Workplace stress has remained record at record high levels since the pandemic. And so we haven't really seen a decline on that. The pace of change continues to accelerate. And so really looking at how do we ensure we're not losing traction, we're being innovative, we're still keeping up with the pace of change while at the same time ensuring we're creating a culture of care for our teams and that we're focused on the well-being of our teams.

Jean Blacklock (06:12) Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sandra Corelli (06:37) that being said, there's a lot of pressure on leaders to be able to navigate both the economic uncertainty, the pressure to implement changes, transform their organization. And so we're finding that more managers than non-managers, the research will show, are burning out or struggling with work-life balance. And so really looking to support them with different tools and strategies to be able to navigate.

the constant piece of change and pressure that they're under.

Jean Blacklock (07:11) Right, right. What are your thoughts around smaller firms that might feel, there's just four of us or 10 of us or, you know, name a number that's not like 45,000, as in like one of our major banks in Canada. If they were to say, well, you know, really, we just all go out for lunch on Fridays and, you know, shoot the hay kind of thing and everything's fine.

Sandra Corelli (07:16) .

Thank

Peace out.

and it's amazing.

Jean Blacklock (07:40) What would be your thoughts on some of the challenges that they might not be aware of if they have that attitude because they're small?

Sandra Corelli (07:49) Yeah, yeah, and we can, we can, I mean, there's, there's benefits of being small, right? And there's, there's definitely connection that and sense of community on small teams that sometimes you might not experience in some larger organizations. That being said, there is, and I hear this all the time from my clients, whether it's in small organizations or in larger organizations that

Jean Blacklock (07:54) course.

Yeah.

Sandra Corelli (08:17) they feel they can't truly sometimes be themselves at work. And everyone's going through different personal challenges and there's things they're masking or there things they're not happy with within the workplace. And it doesn't necessarily feel, although they trust their leader, they fear if they bring it up.

Jean Blacklock (08:21) Yes.

Sandra Corelli (08:36) it could reflect negatively on them or it could reflect negatively on their performance. And so there's this reluctance sometimes to share which could impact engagement. It could impact how effectively people are showing up in their performance as individuals within the firm, even in smaller organizations. If there isn't this sense of safety that we can talk about anything together, we can disagree on things without this fear of

retaliation in any way, or that it's going to reflect negatively on me as a person or on my performance.

Jean Blacklock (09:13) Right. have personal experience in that, having the bakery for 10 years and we had a management team and on two separate occasions, about I think five or six years apart, a skilled facilitator came in and met with the management team. We spent a day together. And it's really interesting when there is that skilled facilitator such as you are with a team. It's definitely possible to get the trust of everyone.

even with the boss there, boss in air quotes, for people to share what is really going on for them and for everyone, certainly including the manager at the end of the day to feel like they've all learned a lot and they're on a professional level, business level, they're just in a better place.

Sandra Corelli (10:01) Yeah, you raised an important point there around being curious as a leader. And so, you know, it may appear like everything's fine, everyone's getting along, you know, performance is good. And so we think everything is fine. You know, when we go for lunch every Friday, everyone seems happy.

Jean Blacklock (10:07) right.

Sandra Corelli (10:20) At the same time, it's important to be curious as a leader and ask questions to encourage the dialogue, to encourage people to talk about things, to encourage people to disagree with you on different things as well, and to have that healthy debate on things to ensure this is the best way to do something instead of just everyone nodding and agreeing around the table. And so the more curious a leader can be, I think the healthier that team can be as well.

them to be curious with each other.

Jean Blacklock (10:53) Right. For a leader to be able to put down his or her defenses and just be open to hearing that people are struggling in some way. It would be easier for all of us as leaders if the people just love coming to work every day and there were no problems. But that's not life. so, yeah. So with your... Go ahead.

Sandra Corelli (10:58) Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe it's not something they're necessarily struggling with, but it could be they disagree with the way something is being done within the organization or a direction that's being taken and they have other ideas of how they think something could work. And it doesn't mean that we're going to necessarily go that direction, but we want to create an environment where people are going to bring up those different ideas, those different opinions, that we can have healthy conversation around what's really best for the firm moving

forward.

Jean Blacklock (11:45) Right. So what are your thoughts on then when a person might think about individual coaching? So there's the team coaching, again, in our context, perhaps a wealth management firm or a brokerage firm that might be listening today. So they would have someone like yourself come in and do the facilitated thing. But what is the role in a firm like that of individual coaching?

Sandra Corelli (11:47) Okay.

Yeah, so it works two ways. So many clients, typically organizations will reach out to me to coach leaders within their company or within their team. And that could be for a variety of professional development reasons. Sometimes it's to accelerate a leader's readiness to move to more senior roles or the leader has recently transitioned to a more senior role and they're looking for additional support. And those goals can range from

Jean Blacklock (12:30) Mm-hmm.

Sandra Corelli (12:39) improving an individual's communication style, their interpersonal effectiveness, their leadership presence, building emotional intelligence. So there's a variety of different areas that we can focus on. Sometimes it's even building their political acuity and the ability to navigate within the firm or the organization. And then there's individuals who will...

Jean Blacklock (12:54) Mm-hmm.

Sandra Corelli (12:59) approach humanicity directly for one-on-one coaching outside of engagement with their organization because they're also looking to grow in their career or they recognize they have areas they want to continue to work on, different muscles of their leadership and work on those areas to achieve their professional and personal goals. And one thing I find is that particularly as leaders get more senior,

Jean Blacklock (13:03) Okay.

Sandra Corelli (13:26) The coaching relationship is one of the only areas that they feel this is a trusted advisor coach that I have a safe space where I can talk about things that I can't really talk about with my team or with my colleagues. And because it can, as we know, the more senior you get, the more lonelier it can get at times as well. And so the coaching relationship becomes that safe space where you can talk out loud about

Jean Blacklock (13:33) safe.

Sandra Corelli (13:56) things that you are experiencing or feeling or need guidance and coaching on or you're not sure how you handle something so you want to kind of talk it through and see if there would have been a better way to manage it so you know moving forward.

Jean Blacklock (14:13) Yeah. So moving over to then the clients of wealth advisory firms. So we've talked about how a wealth advisory firm might look at coaching and leadership development as something that would be really terrific for the firm. But in terms of assisting clients with this sort of thing, an individual client who is struggling perhaps to set values and goals around his wealth with his spouse.

Sandra Corelli (14:41) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (14:42) or a family conflict, what are your thoughts on how a wealth advisor might assist with that kind of introduction?

Sandra Corelli (14:51) introduction to a coach.

Jean Blacklock (14:54) Yeah, so the family or the client is struggling and they view what your firm offers as something that would be really helpful. So I guess as a two-fold question, what might be those things that you could offer a family or an individual in that way and their personal feelings about wealth? And then also, how would the wealth advisor appropriately get involved in that?

Sandra Corelli (15:01) Yeah. Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yeah, and so the wealth advisor is likely picking up on different cues from the family or from the couple, where there might be disagreements, where there might be differences in values. And it can be challenging to acknowledge that and bring that up. And looking for an opportunity to be curious about that with the client to say, or the couple to say, you know, I noticed that

Jean Blacklock (15:23) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sandra Corelli (15:42) you have different perspectives on how you view money or how you view your financial plan and your ideas of saving or there's some disagreements that have surfaced in our conversations. And one of the things that can be helpful that other clients have benefited from is speaking to a coach to talk through some of these areas to really help you each identify your values.

and talk about your individual goals and also to understand your communication styles, your personality styles in better and better detail so that you understand how you can communicate more effectively together. And there may be some new tools and strategies that you'll learn as well to support that that can benefit you not only as we build this financial plan or your wealth plan, but

in all aspects of your relationship.

Jean Blacklock (16:45) Right. What I really like about what you've just said is it's really normalizing. It's helping the clients see that what they're going through and what they've shared with the advisor, others have done too. I think we've all had this situation where we've been maybe with a physician or a dentist and we think something's terribly wrong and they say, no, no, we've seen this a lot. And immediately it's not as scary. Similarly, I think when a wealth advisor can say,

Sandra Corelli (16:51) Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (17:15) I've observed this, more or less saying that's no big deal. Here's somewhere where you might get some help and by the way, I want to help you in any way I can. That feels really affirming as opposed to laughing it off or changing the subject or doing one of those other more avoidant techniques.

Sandra Corelli (17:16) Thanks.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, or at least to your point avoiding it altogether, right? Like not only know what we're seeing in the room, which is not going to help.

Jean Blacklock (17:40) Mm-hmm.

Sandra Corelli (17:45) the relationship for these individuals moving forward and can even impact the relationship between the advisor and the client. so having the client go through this process is also benefit to the advisor, right? The more the advisor can learn and the client can share back with the advisor about what they've learned about their communication style or their conflict management style can help the advisor as well in their relationship with the client.

Jean Blacklock (18:14) Right. And in a moment, I want to get into your, now you're turning to be a psychotherapist in your training there, which is my field. But I think one of the things that sometimes people aren't aware of is that people actually do like being noticed and things that are going on with them being named. You know, we have a great fear of not offending people or maybe we should just ignore that

Sandra Corelli (18:36) Yes.

Jean Blacklock (18:44) that they gave us that something's going on, but in fact it's usually the opposite. People usually are very welcoming when we, in a compassionate way, know that maybe there's something there more you'd like to say about that issue.

Sandra Corelli (18:58) Yeah, yeah, everyone, I strongly believe everyone wants to feel heard, seen, appreciated, and valued. And so having that someone acknowledge what they're seeing, what they're noticing, what you're feeling is really powerful for an individual.

Jean Blacklock (19:17) Well, let's turn then to that professional development that I personally and selfishly so excited to know that you're doing. Well, why don't you tell us about it? What the path you are taking to become a psychotherapist, all of the studies that you've been taking and so on.

Sandra Corelli (19:23) Ha!

Yeah, thank you. And so it's been quite the transformational journey, to be honest. I've always knew, I've always been an advocate for mental health. I've always had an interest in psychology. I've always had an interest in human behavior. And given the work that I do with humanicity, I recognized a need for

Jean Blacklock (19:39) Hahaha.

Sandra Corelli (19:59) psychotherapy services in my practice. And I decided now is the time I was going to pursue and start my journey to become a psychotherapist. And so I started my master's a few years ago and we'll be graduating this December. I'm very excited. I see the light that's coming. It's a lot of work.

Jean Blacklock (20:18) Kidding, that's a ton of work on top of running a firm.

Sandra Corelli (20:22) Yes, it's been a lot of work. I've been doing it part time, in addition to running the firm. it's been, exactly weekends have been all writing essays and assignments. But it's been a great experience. I've met incredible people in my program. I've learned a lot about myself and I've learned a lot about others. And so I, I

Jean Blacklock (20:28) So from 11 p.m. to 3 a.m. sort of thing.

Sandra Corelli (20:48) value and appreciate as much as it's been a balance. I really value the time that I've spent in the program and I'm to incorporate psychotherapy services into my practice. So as of March 2024, I'm a registered psychotherapist qualifying. So I'm currently completing my clinical hours under clinical supervision.

In January, I will be integrating psychotherapy services into Humanicity Consulting Group under Humanicity Psychotherapy, so as a division of Humanicity Consulting Group.

and we'll start seeing clients one-on-one and increase my offering of wellbeing workshops, mental health workshops for organizations as well. And consulting work for organizations that are looking to implement a wellbeing strategy, a mental health strategy within their organization, which research shows that mental health in the work, there's an epidemic of mental health in the workplace. there's...

There's a big need as you talked about at the beginning. At the end of the day, we're all human beings and there are personal challenges, professional challenges that everyone is navigating and having that mental health support is essential for the health of the organization. When we think about wanting to drive performance, wanting to be more innovative, the mental health of the workforce is essential.

Jean Blacklock (22:26) It certainly is. So a question that I get a lot and since you're right in the focal point of it, I want to, I'm curious in your answer and that is, what is the difference between coaching and therapy? And you and I have had coffee where we've talked about this. So let's have a bit of a discussion about that. You go first.

Sandra Corelli (22:26) Thank

You

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's always an interesting conversation in terms of the differences and the different perspectives between coaching and therapy. I would say there are definitely some overlaps, simple similarities. So both coaching and therapy create a safe space. And I touched on this a little earlier and a safe space and opportunity for growth and meaningful change where people can be vulnerable without judgment. So I think both offer that.

Coaching is one-on-one or it could be group and it's typically focused on an individual's professional or personal goals to develop their leadership behaviors and is generally future focused. And it's often focused on those specific areas that they're working towards.

either currently or in the future. When we think about therapy, it's also a one-on-one process. There also can be group therapy as well. But when we think about it on a one-on-one basis, it is more broad-based, I would say, than coaching. It covers all aspects of a person's life.

I would also say from a therapeutic perspective, it's really about helping clients process emotional experiences, whether that's from current events or situations that are, are, are.

happening in their lives or whether it's from past events that have happened in their lives. So there is a tendency to explore the past, but always, it's not always relevant, but there is more of a tendency in therapy than coaching to explore a client's past and how that may be informing what's showing up in the present and how they're feeling. And it's really about

sitting with those emotions and exploring them and helping the client learn strategies to cope with whatever it is that they're trying to navigate right now, whether that's grief, whether that's anger, whether that's stress, whatever it is that they're working through or trying to navigate.

Jean Blacklock (25:09) Yeah, that's really well said. I don't think I really fully understood myself until I went through the psychotherapy training. people might not be aware of this, but you really learn to become a psychotherapist through learning about yourself. Because unless you can really understand how your past formed you and

Sandra Corelli (25:30) Yes.

Jean Blacklock (25:38) affects every single moment of every single day, it's, I think it would be impossible to really help people with what they're dealing with. And what I took away from it and it's just so valuable and I find it so helpful when the light bulb goes off for clients and they see this to understand how our attachment styles that were formed in the early years of our life, whether that's secure or anxious or avoidant, inform how we

Sandra Corelli (25:41) Okay.

Jean Blacklock (26:08) show up in relationships, whether we trust that a relationship is going to be sound. Certainly there's people with an avoidant attachment style that really don't trust anybody or anything and never will and they can be extremely successful in their life. But in terms of relationships, they always have a high level of distrust.

Yes, I just feel there's such value in that and it's sometimes a little frustrating as a therapist, you know, when people make comments like, well, I wouldn't want to, why bother spending time talking about my childhood? Like my parents did a great job and like that's long gone. And it is never about blame or at least I believe it shouldn't be about blame. think all of us had, most of us had quote good enough parents.

Sandra Corelli (26:50) Yes, yes.

Jean Blacklock (27:02) But it's about just understanding why we make the decisions that we do, because once we understand why we do, then it's like, okay, I don't wanna do that anymore. And it's much easier to do it from that place of understanding as opposed to like, why can't I just stop this?

Sandra Corelli (27:15) That's right.

Yes, yeah, yeah, it's quite, it's connecting the dots for the client. Right, and I think it's so powerful for them, because to your point, a lot of them don't feel they need to or want to explore the past. But there's so much that their worldview is based on, obviously, experiences shape their worldview as well. But there's so much that their worldview is based on.

Jean Blacklock (27:28) That's it. Yeah.

Sandra Corelli (27:47) from growing up and the values that they have, the assumptions they carry, the beliefs that they have and their attachment style informs so many aspects of their present to your point in terms of their relationships and how they navigate and interact with other people. And the more they can understand that without judgment, can...

work through like what's working for me, what's not working for me, and like where do I want to make some changes to help improve the effectiveness of my relationships, whether that's personal or professional.

Jean Blacklock (28:25) Right. So I'll take a stab then at what I think I would say to someone who's trying to determine whether they should retain a coach or a therapist. I think that the individual that is feeling very secure in all of her relationships, a general sense of contentment and happiness in their life, general sleeping well,

Sandra Corelli (28:34) you

Jean Blacklock (28:54) balance, you everyone has bad days, but overall feeling quite well. But is in say, assistant manager of the Regina branch and wants to be vice president for Saskatchewan, that and isn't, you know, isn't quite sure how to navigate. I feel like I might say to that individual, perhaps start with a coach, you know, a coach may be able to help you crystallize.

Sandra Corelli (29:07) Thank

Jean Blacklock (29:24) those goals and set small concrete steps to get there. Whereas I think someone that is finding that there's quite a bit of joy in life that isn't there anymore, that once was, or that there have been critical events such as a death or a breakup or maybe just something malaise, and also maybe struggling with work.

Sandra Corelli (29:28) Right.

Thank

Thanks.

and I'll you

Jean Blacklock (29:53) My suggestion to someone like that might be, it may be useful to start with a therapist and explore at a higher level what might be going on for you. What are your thoughts?

Sandra Corelli (29:57) So.

Yes, yes. Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that in terms of the direction to provide both individuals. The one thing I would add on and say is that some of the most successful or ambitious people that I've seen that come for coaching are suppressing a lot of

emotions around different things that are happening in their lives. And so that, I think, for their own well-being is important to work through with a therapist and ensure that they're getting the support. So there may be situations where you have both. If you have a coach that's supporting you towards different professional goals that you have, and then there's this

there's things, there's stuff that you're carrying that you really need to work through and process that will make you a better leader, that will make you show up better for all your relationships, that is really important to work through as well. And so sometimes it could be that you're seeing a coach and a therapist in parallel.

Jean Blacklock (31:19) Yeah, an example that comes to mind as you're saying that, and I completely agree, is an individual that is working on the next step in their career and all of that. But outside of that, their personal life is a bit of a shambles for the reason that they're pouring so much into their work life, which in my mind just raises a curious question. Is that because the...

the achievement drive that was probably embedded in them very early in life, that your worth is determined by what you achieve, by the A's you get, by the prizes you win, all that sort of thing. So there's never a level of achievement in their work that will ever fill that hole.

Sandra Corelli (31:59) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (32:10) So in that sort of situation, it strikes me that like, you know, absolutely go for it. Like be this chief executive officer of a bank, like good on you. But at the same time, is it worth exploring? And this would likely not be with a coach. Is it worth exploring what it will take to feel good? And therefore allow you to take time for those relationships with your spouse and your children.

Sandra Corelli (32:37) Yes, yes, absolutely. And those are the areas that I think a therapist could help the individual explore. And the coach has, I guess, a coach before I was a therapist, I have an accountability to identify that and to call it out for the client so that they can see the value of how that could support their overall.

well-being and career as well to engage in therapy. And reality is everyone is going through some type of challenge, or small, right? And so whether that is, you know, grief or loss that they're experiencing, whether it's a relationship or a divorce that they're trying to navigate, there's so many different personal challenges that people are.

trying to navigate while still showing up as best as they can in the workplace. And again, trying to mask that because they want to show they're performing, they're doing their job, it's not affecting their performance at all, but there's consequences to that. And so ensuring you're getting the right support that you're working through and processing the emotions is where therapy can really help in your overall leadership journey.

Jean Blacklock (33:55) Yes. Do you see generational differences, Sandra? Do you think that the current generation in their 20s, believe the Gen Zs view therapy and coaching in a different manner than say Gen X or Baby Boomers?

Sandra Corelli (34:14) I think there are more, there's less stigma around it in that generation.

When I think of my client, like the clients I have in therapy right now, it's actually pretty diverse from a demographic perspective. And so I do have a number of clients that are, you know, 25 to 35, but then also have individuals in their late forties to all the way to mid sixties. And so I am seeing more of an openness, I would say, even in older generations. And we know

like within Canada specifically that over the age of 41 and two individuals have had or will have a mental illness. So we're seeing increases in anxiety and depression. And so I think more people are starting to feel there's less stigma hopefully around. There's a lot of work being done around that more that I think we still can do, but more open to it for sure.

Jean Blacklock (35:21) Right. Our conversation is really underscoring for me the importance of wealth advisors to the extent they can to come to terms with the impact of mental health on their firm. I may be wrong, but I have the sense that the industry, wealth management, financial services is quite a stoic industry. And perhaps it draws people that are

Sandra Corelli (35:38) Thank

Jean Blacklock (35:51) incredibly smart, chartered financial analysts, lawyers, chartered accountants, people with incredible entrepreneurial drive to build the client portfolios that they do that may feel quite uncomfortable with our whole conversation today if they're still listening. For them, any thoughts on where they might begin to

Sandra Corelli (36:08) Absolutely. Yes, yeah.

Jean Blacklock (36:20) get a better understanding of the changes in our culture around these topics.

Sandra Corelli (36:27) I mean there's so much information available online that you can read about mental health. That being said, I would encourage them to...

set up a console, like set up a few consoles with a therapist and just see how it feels for you. It's a confidential, safe space. It's not something that anyone even has to know that you're doing and see how it feels for you, what you learn from it, what you take away from it.

how you feel afterwards and experiment and see what it's like for you. There's no harm in doing that and it often surprises people, but the benefits that they experience from having someone completely neutral, completely in a very confidential safe space that they can speak to about everything, because to your point, the rest of their life they do feel they have to hold up

this image and be stoic and continue to push. And so this is a space where they can be themselves, they can be vulnerable, they can share whatever it is that's on their mind. And that in itself is a huge release for people because they've been carrying it for so long.

Jean Blacklock (37:46) Right. Right.

I really like that. I understand correctly, you're saying, you know, don't just get your little Rolodex out and make a list of therapists that you can give to your clients, but go first. Have the courage to go first, to try psychotherapy, to try coaching. Because doing that will really help an advisor like speak about these topics in a relaxed way. And of course,

Sandra Corelli (37:59) Yes.

.

Jean Blacklock (38:18) Everybody is open to vulnerability in different ways. But those that are willing to share kind of what is going on in their life, I think it's easier for them to talk to clients that are struggling with something. You don't have to share personal details, that giving off a sense of understanding that these things that we've been chatting about are relevant. They're not just...

the touchy feely things that they might have been referred to in the past.

Sandra Corelli (38:48) That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (38:51) Yeah. Here in Toronto where you and I both live and practice, I know it can be difficult to find a therapist. I think the College of Registered Psychotherapists is going as fast as they can. It's a relatively new college. I think it started in 2018. I know they're going as fast as they can to get new psychotherapists like you will be in very short order, but it is still a profession that there isn't as many as maybe there could be.

Sandra Corelli (38:56) Thanks.

Are you good?

Yes, yeah. And it can also feel at the same time, like we hear about all these waiting lists, at the same time it can also feel overwhelming trying to find a therapist. Because if you go on like Psychology Today or you go on some of the different platforms that are available, it can be overwhelming when you see the number of different therapists. And that's why I would encourage people to take advantage of consults and setting up a consult with a few different people and see what's a fit for you.

Jean Blacklock (39:48) Right. So the last area I'd to chat with you about is assessments. And you were incredibly helpful to us in the formation of Delisle Advisory, looking at conflict style assessments, personality assessments, all of that from the perspective of helping clients, couples, families, in a relatively innocuous and safe way. So we've talked about some pretty deep things in our conversation, but it's

relatively safe to as a group to go through assessments and to read the assessments and all of that and as a starting point to like okay how could we manage our way through this shareholder agreement that we need to negotiate. Can you say a little bit about that research that you did for us and what you found and what you what you think about that?

Sandra Corelli (40:29) Right.

Yep.

Yeah, so I think both Humanicity and Delal, we both believe that wealth planning should consider the emotional well-being of the client. And so when we think about individuals, it's often easy to articulate their personal views than find consensus as a family or as business partners. And it's an opportunity when we think about the assessments to really help clients understand their personality better, understand the family dynamics or

partner team dynamics.

of a relationship and make significant differences in those relationships. And so if we think about some of the assessments that we explored, there was a number of different tools that we can leverage with families to help them understand their personality styles or their communication styles. Also, one of the big areas is to even understand their conflict management style. And so there's conflict management assessments that we can leverage that help address

Jean Blacklock (41:33) Mm-hmm.

Sandra Corelli (41:38) the differences between people, their preferred communication style, how they approach disagreements, how they approach decisions. And having this understanding can really help whether it's a couple, a family, business partners, reduce stress and improve the relationship and improve the dynamic within the relationship, improve decision making in the relationship, really take the advisory conversation to the next level.

Jean Blacklock (42:01) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Those tests are just so incredibly, the good ones, so incredibly accurate. during my years at the bank, did a number of them, like most leaders in large companies, you you have to do your share of those. I remember getting one once and it said, you don't like asking people their opinion because it might be different than your own or something like that.

Sandra Corelli (42:14) Yes.

Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (42:35) And I remember reading at it, bursting out laughing and thinking, no. I'm sure it was softer than that, but basically they had sort of had me nailed. But there's something about those assessments that when you read them, it's not like hearing that information in a hurtful way or from someone else. You know it's coming directly from what you have shared.

Sandra Corelli (42:42) Yeah. Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (42:59) And then when you can compare it, as you've said, with the family members that have done it or their colleagues that have done it, it really informs future interactions, which is what it's supposed to do.

Sandra Corelli (43:08) Yes.

That's right. That's right. And to your point, it really can help individuals build their own self-awareness. Like once they did it, they do, yeah, that does sound like me, but they don't recognize that that's how they were showing up in different relationships or in different interactions. And so it can be very powerful that way. It can also be overwhelming sometimes to see the report the first time and interpret it and understand it. And that's why we can support the client or the family.

Jean Blacklock (43:19) Right.

Sandra Corelli (43:40) or the business partners in interpreting the report, understanding the results, and ensuring that they're taking away the really important elements from the report and the assessment.

Jean Blacklock (43:45) Yeah.

Great, exactly. how it's presented to them is very important. Well, this has been such an interesting discussion, Sandra. Thank you. Is there anything else that you were hoping we'd cover today that we haven't got to that you'd like to share?

Sandra Corelli (44:07) It was a great conversation. Always love chatting with Eugene. So thank you so much for having me.

Jean Blacklock (44:12) Likewise, well thank you very much. Okay, bye for now Sandra.

Sandra Corelli (44:15) Bye.