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Elyse: Welcome back to Case of the Sunday Scaries. I'm Elyse and it is officially the start of spooky season. The weather is getting a little colder. Everyone's getting their pumpkin spice lattes. And I am finally finished talking about Ted Bundy. I could not be more happy to be done with that series. But.

During spooky season, we are going to be diving into the paranormal, the cryptid, and in today's episode, a little bit of history.

We all grew up singing nursery rhymes, but those sweet little songs that we used to sing as kids actually have some pretty disturbing backstories. It turns out they weren't written to comfort children. They were often used to reflect the political, social, and. morbid realities of the time. Today we're going to look at five different nursery rhymes that have particularly creepy theories behind their origins.

And by the end, I guarantee you're never going to listen to them the same way again. So let's kick things off with the rhyme most commonly linked [00:01:00] to one of the deadliest events in human history. Ring Around the Rosie.

Elyse: Ring Around the Rosie. We all know this one. You might even remember, like I do, spinning in circles with your friends, holding hands, and singing it till you get to the conclusion of the song and then everybody falls dramatically down. It's super fun when you're a kid. But plot twist, it's not so fun when you learn that it might frickin Black Death.

Yeah, that's right, uh, you were unknowingly playing a plague game as a child. The Black Death was a pandemic that mostly struck Asia and Europe but reached globally in the mid 1300s. But in true spooky [00:02:00] season horror, in October of 1327, 12 ships returned from the Black Sea and arrived in a Sicilian port.

The people on the docks were met with a truly terrifying surprise. Most of the sailors were already dead, and the ones who were still alive were covered in big black boils that had pus and blood oozing from them. I guess I should have mentioned that you might not want to be eating during this little bit of the episode. So put your pumpkin spice lattes down, your muffins, whatever you're consuming. Um, you're gonna want to hold off for a little bit.

Because when authorities saw the devastation on board these ships, they were like, You know what? Um, it's a big no thank you for me. We do not want any of whatever the heck is happening here. This is not a fun October trick or treat surprise. So get the hell away from us. And they ordered All 12 ships with their deceased sailors and those on the brink of death to go back to the ocean and leave the Harbor immediately.

Unfortunately, it was already too late. [00:03:00] Over the next five years, the Black Death would kill more than 50 million people in Europe, nearly a half of the entire continent's population. And because of trade routes, it went through Africa and Asia and devastated their populations as well. Oh, and little morbid tidbit I found while researching this episode, over in Asia, the Mongol army had a Quite an interesting strategy for biological warfare.

When the plague hit their area, they would catapult the bodies of plague victims over city walls in an effort to infect their enemies. I guess you could say they were really throwing themselves into battle, quite literally. But how does all this relate to Ring Around the Rosie?well, the line Ring Around the Rosie very likely refers to one of the first signs that someone had been infected with the plague. They would develop a rosy, itchy, red rash, and if that wasn't gross enough, I mean, truly, that's nothing, because after the rash, came a whole kit and caboodle of other [00:04:00] horrifying symptoms.

very quickly, those rashes became the least of your problems, because as your fever was raging upwards towards 106 degrees, these gross called buboes would appear, some as big as an apple, in your neck, in your armpits, or in your no no places. They would ooze pus and blood,

Which, oof, if you know anything about me, I'm not so great with skin stuff. I can't even get chemical peels because I end up, like, picking it all off of my face. I'm just not good at it. It gives me the heebie jeebies. And while I've never had the black plague, of course, last year I got bit in the armpit by some sort of spider and it swelled up big time and I had to go get it lanced and drained and then they painfully packed it with some antibiotic soaked gauze.

And let me tell you, That hurt, that hurt real, real bad. So I cannot imagine being covered in boils and some of the real sensi sensi areas of the body.

And if all of that was not bad enough, then you would start [00:05:00] vomiting blood and the tissue of your fingers and toes would get necrosis, Literally causing the blackening of your skin and the sloughing off of the dead tissue before eventually you succumb to a very painful death.

That brings us to the next line in that nursery rhyme a pocket full of posies Which is where it gets even more interesting back in the day people thought that bad smells were the source of disease So they'd carry around herbs flowers or spices in their pockets to ward off Miasma, which was their word for the so called bad air that they thought was responsible for spreading the plague but in reality It, of course, was not a smell that was causing all of this chaos.

It was the reason behind the smell that was the problem.

Europe in the 1300s was a hygiene disaster of massive proportions. There was no indoor plumbing at this time, so people just took their chamber pots full of urine and feces and shucked it right out the window. Can you imagine you're just strolling the streets [00:06:00] trying to dodge flying poop? That would probably be enough to kill me outright, plague or no plague.

People at this time were also not too keen on bathing. Early Christians considered bathing a temptation. And my years of Sunday school had me wondering if they got this idea because of little old King David, who got so enamored by seeing Bathsheba, somebody else's wife, taking a bubble bath on her roof, that he ended up committing adultery.

I guess throughout history we have always blamed women for the dirty deeds of men. Some things never change, right? Saint Benedict took it a step further and he declared, To those who are well, and especially the young, bathing shall seldom be permitted.

With the majority of Europeans at the time being Christians, well, let's just assume that very few were enjoying a good soak.

I've gotta wonder though, does your nose become nose blind to your own stench at some point? How it does, you know, for the perfume that you wear every day? Because I personally could not imagine crawling [00:07:00] into bed with my hubby and getting a whiff of those pits that haven't been washed in years and being like, Yeah baby, let's enjoy some kissy kissy cuddly time.

Ugh, no thank you. All of this to say that hygiene was pretty non existent, and if you have ever been down in the subway of New York City, you know what loves a bit of a damp, dark, musty space? Rats. Rats. And rats eat everything, and I am sure they were having a free for all with the trash and excrement being tossed into the streets.

And you know what loves rats? Rat fleas. It was the fleas that were hitching rides on rats, spreading a bacteria called Yersinia pestis. And I probably pronounced that wrong, but I did my best. This was the bacteria that caused the plague. So how this works is the bacteria that was in the flea, well, it would replicate really quickly. And as it built up in the flea, it would obstruct their guts, causing a blockage.

Which, I mean, [00:08:00] yeah, it's a flea, but I imagine it was quite painful. And the flea's getting pissed. It's starving. It's hungry. So it's driven to try to clear this blockage on its own. And its way of doing that was to bite at the rat and then regurgitate Hey, I warned you. You should not be eating during this episode.

Anyway, it bites at the rat and then would regurgitate into the wound in an attempt to basically upchuck the blockage that the bacteria had caused. So then Mr. Rat is full of thousands of this bacteria that causes the plague. And they say that exposure helps build a good immune system. Well, that's not true. These rats had a lot of exposure to a lot of things because they didn't give a hoot about the bacteria in them. I mean, they're used to eating trash and, well, everything else you would find in the streets at that time.

The rats are just straight chillin They don't care. And that's step one. Step two in creating a widespread plague was that the fleas that are hitching a ride on Mr. Rat would then jump to that rather odorous human [00:09:00] neighbor and give a little love bite. Then bam, we have patient zero because everyone was all huddled together in these crowded cities.

People are coughing, sneezing, touching the same surfaces as those that were infected. And now it's game over.

People did not know about germs during this time, so they had some pretty interesting theories on why this was all happening. Many Christians and Muslims believed that the plague was a punishment from God, and men began forming these groups that went from town to town performing flatulence, no, not flatulence.

Those are two very different things. Basically, they would whip themselves. Or each other with large leather straps that had pieces of metal embedded in them. They would perform this offer of penance to God three times a day for 33 days and then move on to the next town, hoping that their sacrifice would make up for the sins of the town and remove the punishment from God.

And I've got to commend the willingness to sacrifice for the good of others. But I think we all know this probably wasn't [00:10:00] actually helpful. In fact, traveling from town to town probably only increased the likelihood of spreading the plague.

We already briefly talked about the other, less religious theory that bad smells or bad air was the cause of the plague. Which, in a way, I guess they weren't far off, they just didn't realize that it was the germs in the air that were the issue. So what did they do to combat this? They thought, you know, let's add some absolute nightmare fuel to this fevering person's last days by creating plague doctor masks. If you have watched any TV show that has a masquerade party, or some sort of dark secret society storyline, You've seen these masks. The masks covered their entire face, and then they had this long beak like extension in the front. They look like demonic bird people. They hoped these masks would filter the air, and so they would stuff herbs, flowers, and even vinegar soaked sponges into the beak before entering a patient's home. Let's just imagine this, shall we? You have a raging fever, and you're pretty out of it. [00:11:00] You're also in incredible pain, and then you're shaken awake to see a black cloaked bird man performing what they considered medical treatment at the time. bloodletting, which if you don't know what that is, they would literally cut you open and try to drain the body of the bad blood in order to cure you.

You know, I think I would just rather die. Thank you so much. Demonic bird person.

but draw some parallels to our recent experience with COVID.

Basically, these bird masks were the doctor's form of PPE. But if you remember, There was also some wild theories being thrown around about how we could protect ourselves or even cure ourselves from COVID. And like they say, if you don't learn from it, history will always repeat itself. . this takes us to the last line of the song.

Ashes, ashes, we all fall down. When we sing it as children, we all playfully fall to the ground in a heap of giggles. [00:12:00] But that last line is actually referring to the millions of people that would literally fall down dead from the Black Death.

Elyse: Let's jump into Three Blind Mice. This one seems like a fun little ditty about some unfortunate rodents, but the backstory is quite a bit more bloody. The rhyme is often thought to refer to Queen Mary I of England, also known as Bloody Mary.

Queen Mary reigned from 1553 to 1558. But in those short five years, she left quite an impression. Honestly, I could probably do an episode all on her own. Just on her alone, but I'll try to keep this somewhat brief. Mary was the daughter of King Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon, and from a young age, she had a pretty difficult life.

Her father basically disowned her. The female children, eh, they weren't much of importance, and they didn't matter much to royals that wanted a male heir. So when Queen Catherine [00:13:00] conceived of six children with the only child to survive being Mary, the king wasn't happy. And after 24 years of marriage and Catherine even pulling off some pretty incredible feats to protect England, did Henry keep his vow of marriage?

Did he stay loyal to her even in his disappointment about not having a male heir? No, of course not.

Henry had become obsessed with one of her ladies in waiting, Anne Boleyn. He wanted Catherine out and because of their Catholic beliefs, He knew the only way to separate himself from Catherine and Mary Anne and legitimize any children that him and Anne had was to get an annulment from the Pope.

But how was Henry going to do this? The people loved Catherine. She had been by her king's side for over 20 years and faithfully served the country. So Henry had some plotting to do. And he remembered, hey, Catherine, when she was 15, was actually married to my brother, Arthur. Yeah, the family trees [00:14:00] back then were more like family circles.

Arthur had ended up dying only five months into his marriage with Catherine. So Henry thought if he could prove that Catherine had consummated her marriage to Arthur during those five months, technically then, he was married to his sister in law, which meant their marriage would be incestual.

And? The Pope would have to annul it.

But the Pope was like, Henry, I get it, you're a lusty little devil, which, mm mm, is also a sin. But, you want to get married to Anne and make it right, so that you can be with her. The only problem is, Henry, how the heck would I know if Catherine and Arthur ever slept together? She's telling me that they didn't, and he's not around to say one way or the other.

So, no, I'm sorry, but you're not getting an annulment, my guy. You've got to stick with your wife. She's been good to you and she's been good to the country. But of course Henry was not backing down. So he says, you know what Pope you might be the head of the Catholic Church, but I I'm the [00:15:00] king of England.

So I'm gonna go ahead and say bye bye to Rome Bye bye to Catholicism and make myself the head of the Church of England because I'm King Henry. I do what I want I think I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but you get the point

King Henry sent Catherine off to exile, and he didn't even allow her to take her own daughter. She would never see her daughter again. And this sounds rough, but if you know much about Henry VIII, Catherine got a better fate than most of his wives. Henry had broken away from the Catholic Church, making England a Protestant nation.

I've obviously heard the term Protestant numerous times, but I didn't really know what it meant. Basically, it covers most Christian denominations that are separate from the Catholic Church, like Lutheran, Baptist, and Presbyterian. I didn't know I was going to be doing a religious history lesson during spooky season, but alas, Here we are.

Elyse: Let's get back to little Mary. Her dad is now broken away from the Catholic church. And he said, you're never going to see your mother again. But not only that, [00:16:00] I'm going to disown you.

I'm going to make you illegitimate. You will never be queen. Safe to say that Mary probably had some trauma, some attachment issues, if you will. And frankly, she's just disgusted that Daddy Dearest has broken away from the Catholic Church and only because he wanted to be with Anne.

King Henry and Anne Boleyn got married and had a daughter named Elizabeth. But of course, Henry, once he had Anne, He grew bored with her, and she also had not given him a male heir, so since he was the head of the church now and could do whatever he wanted, he said, you know, I don't want to be with Anne anymore, she was, she was great for a moment, but I'm bored, um, so let's just go ahead and kill her to remove the problem, okay?

Okay, thank you so much.

Henry then married a woman named Jane Seymour, who finally gave him a male heir. Unfortunately, she would die in childbirth.

Henry then married his sixth and final wife Catherine Parr Yeah, if you're wondering how we got to six Let's just say I'd be [00:17:00] here all day if I went through all of his wives, but Catherine was a pretty nice woman She was really focused on getting the family back on the right track. Henry had his mill air, so she convinced him why not reinstate Mary and Elizabeth as legitimate children?

You know, just in case something happens to your son. And Henry agreed.

When King Henry died, Mary's half brother took the throne. But he was a little bit worried about what would happen to him if he passed away, what would happen to his country. So, he wrote up a will. And he illegitimized both of his half sisters, Mary and Elizabeth, because he did not want Mary, a strict Catholic, potentially undoing all the work that he and his father had done, and try to restore Catholicism to England. Well, his reign wouldn't last long because he actually died at the age of 15. So someone else gets named queen because of what he had written in his will and the people are like, who the heck is this lady? She's not even a royal. We don't know her. She can't sit with us. So a bunch of Mary supporters put together a [00:18:00] militia and Mary was restored to court and became the queen of England.

You can imagine Mary now the Queen of England was very quick to attempt to restore England back to Catholicism. She believed that this was her holy mission. This is why she was put on this earth. But my, oh my, what people will do in the name of God. During her reign, she would order the murder of around 300 Protestants, burning them at the stake for trying to get in the way of her holy mission. That's where she would end up with the nickname Bloody Mary, and I guess you could say that Mary had quite a fiery temper. Alright, that was a bad joke, but let's get back to the rhyme. The three blind mice are thought to represent three Protestant noblemen,

hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, and Thomas Crenmere, who were accused of plotting against the Queen. These men were prominent figures in the Protestant Reformation, and their Blindness, in the rhyme, was not because they were physically blind, but they were metaphorically blind to what their fate would be if they went [00:19:00] against Bloody Mary.

So next time you hum that little tune, just remember, it's not about some unlucky rodents. It's a really dark reminder of the human cost of religious conflict. And speaking of Bloody Mary, this queen became so notorious that her legend outlived her in more ways than one.

You've probably heard of the Bloody Mary game, right? The one where you turn off all the lights and say her name into a mirror three times, hoping that she doesn't appear to haunt you? It's a spooky sleepover classic, but it's rooted in the real fear and brutality that Mary left behind. The irony of all this was that Queen Mary's actions actually made life so much worse for Catholics in England.

When Queen Mary passed away and her half sister Elizabeth became queen, she reversed all of Mary's policies and pushed the country towards Protestant beliefs. Mary is not remembered for succeeding in her believed holy mission to return Europe to Catholicism, she's remembered for failure and bloodshed.

Alright, keeping it in Europe, [00:20:00] let's tackle London Bridge is Falling Down. Seems harmless, right? Just a song about a bridge falling apart. Poor construction, perhaps. Ooh, no. The theories behind this rhyme are so much creepier than that, and possibly even included human sacrifices. The original London Bridge was built by the Romans around 50 AD as part of their road network.

But bridges obviously don't last forever, especially those built back then, and this one was no exception. Over the following centuries, the bridge kept getting damaged, and then rebuilt, and damaged, and rebuilt. Especially the wood version of the bridge, in particular, obviously couldn't stand a chance against fires, the attacks from Vikings, and regular wear and tear.

Which brings us to one of the more chilling theories behind the rhyme. Some historians believe that the phrase London Bridge is falling down might actually refer to destruction by the Vikings.

In 1014, the Viking leader Olaf Haraldsson is said to have led an attack on [00:21:00] London during which they literally pulled down the bridge. Imagine that. Vikings coming in, all muscles and beards and horned helmets, ripping this bridge apart with ropes like it was their own personal game of Jenga. But oh, it, it gets so much darker, because another theory is that the rhyme might hint at human sacrifices. And I know that sounds like something straight out of a horror movie, but ancient bridge building rituals were thought to involve burying people, usually children, Alive within the foundation to win favor with the gods and that the soul of the person buried there would protect the bridge and ensure its strength According to this legend the phrase Build it up with silver and gold in the rhyme refers to the hope that riches could replace the need for well You know burying innocent children in the foundation.

I know this might sound a bit farfetched, but there's actually stories from all over. During this time of this actually occurring, a famous legend in Romania, said that the builder mane [00:22:00] could not seem to get the infrastructure for his monastery correct. It just kept collapsing. He thought his project had to be cursed. So he and his workers decided to sacrifice a human by burying them alive in the walls of the monastery. And guess who he chose as his sacrifice.

Elyse: It's always the husband, right? He chose his wife. He's building a monastery to worship God and murdered his wife in the process. Like I said, the things some people do in the name of God are just wild,

but maybe this theory is how we got not only the nursery rhyme but the children's game attached to it. Generally two kids hold their arms in an arch while their friends march under it, singing London Bridge is falling down, falling down. But when it gets to the last line of My Fair Lady, The children acting as the bridge lower their arms, capturing the child.

Yikes, right? The people of London had enough. They did not want to keep rebuilding this bridge that kept falling down. And an American [00:23:00] businessman bought it.

He had it shipped to America and rebuilt it brick by brick in Arizona, of all places. I had absolutely no idea that the bridge on Lake Havasu is actually the original London Bridge.

So, legend or not, if you ever find yourself at Lake Havasu and you're crossing a bridge, just remember that that bridge might have a lot darker of a history than any of us realized.

Elyse: I want to move on to the nursery rhyme Jack and Jill. In it, it says that Jack and Jill went up a hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, and Jill came tumbling after. Seems like this is just about two kids going up a hill, and then having a little tumble trying to get the water bucket back down the hill.

Innocent enough, right? Wrong again.

One of the most popular theories about this nursery rhyme is that it's a cleverly disguised story of a really grotesque scene during the [00:24:00] French Revolution. Jack is said to represent King Louis XVI of France, while Jill, she plays the role of his infamous wife, Queen Mary Antoinette. You might remember Mary Antoinette as the queen who allegedly said, Let them eat cake in response to the starving peasants in her country who couldn't even afford bread. She was a more than a little out of touch with the needs of her people.

And she was perfectly fine snacking on decadent meals, wearing lavish dresses, having the finest of jewels, but could not be bothered to care about the people in her country, not having enough money for even a loaf of bread to feed their families. Mary Antoinette was not exactly winning any popularity contest, and these two spent in excess and they left their country in dire straits and absolute crippling poverty.

The people had enough and they started a revolution against the monarchy. In June 1971, the royal family attempted to flee France, hoping that they could [00:25:00] escape the people whose lives that they had ruined, and that were more than a wee bit mad at them. They ended up getting caught, and this little misadventure fueled public outrage. People looked at it like, what the heck? These people got us into this mess, and instead of sticking with their country and pulling us back out of this, they run away in the night like scared little children. Nah. Nah, we can't have this in our country.

Fast forward to January 21st, 1793. King Louis was put on trial for treason. He had fled his own country to avoid consequences. Which really just led to even worse consequences when he was found guilty and sentenced to death by guillotine. When the executioner swung the blade, it marked the end of his reign and the loss of his crown, both literally and figuratively. As for Mary Antoinette, her fate wasn't much better. After Louis execution, she was imprisoned and tried for, geez, a lot of accusations, including treason, conspiracy, and even tried for that infamous let them eat cake [00:26:00] quote.

Which history is a bit unclear if she actually said those words, but she went down with one of the most out of touch and famous quotes in history. On October 16th, 1793, after a very speedy trial, Marie Antoinette was sentenced to death. On her way to the guillotine, she very famously stepped on the executioner's foot and reportedly said, Pardon me, sir. And after those words, well, her head also went tumbling down after her husband's.

Elyse: And last but not least, we've got Hickory Dickory Dock. On the surface, it's just a rhyme about a mouse running up a clock, getting scared when it strikes, and running back down.

But one theory ties it back to where we started today's episode, the Black Death. Yep, we've got to talk about those rats again. The theory goes that the rhyme could represent the way rodents thrived during the plague, scurrying through the streets and spreading disease. People couldn't see the invisible threat creeping into their cities, their streets, and ultimately their homes, much like the [00:27:00] mouse scurrying up a clock when unnoticed.

That is, until it was too late. The clock striking was the symbol of time running out. Just as quickly as the mouse ran up the clock, he ran back down and left death in its wake.

And there you have it. We've now uncovered five seemingly innocent nursery rhymes that have pretty dark historical backstories. I am sure there is plenty more where that came from. So if you know of any, Be sure to share them in the comments or on the Sunday Scaries Instagram page. And maybe next time you hear a nursery rhyme being sung by children, take a moment to ponder the history behind those catchy little tunes. And maybe you'll think twice before singing them to your own kids. Thank you for joining me on this spooky journey through nursery rhyme history. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate, review, and follow whether you're listening on your favorite streaming platform or checking it out on YouTube.

I will be back for another spooky season episode, but as always until then.