Jean Blacklock (00:01.134) Hello everyone. Welcome to Beyond the Bank. My name is Jean Blacklock. I'm the co -founder of Delisle Advisory Group together with my husband, Andrew Orbach. I'm just delighted to welcome today Sarah Plant, a former colleague of both Andrew and I and our great friend. Sarah is a lawyer who has throughout her long and successful career focused on his trusted estate planning. In part, I'm sure because she loves it, but also I know for sure because she's so very skilled at it.

Sarah worked first in private practice with a major law firm before moving to further honer skills and knowledge in estate work at BMO Financial Group, becoming president and CEO of BMO Trust Company, which is where Andrew and I had the good fortune of meeting and working with Sarah. After 16 years at BMO, Sarah became president and CEO of MD private company, private trust company, excuse me, and following the acquisition of MD by Scotiabank, Sarah then led the BNS Trust Company.

the largest trust company in Canada, a position she retired from in 2022. In the last couple of years, Sarah has taken some well -deserved time to pursue art and support new Canadians through her involvement with New Circles. However, once a trust and a state lawyer, always a trust and a state lawyer, and Sarah has generously contributed to our thinking around the formation of the Family Dynamics Group at Delisle Advisory Group. And Andrew and I really look forward to continuing to work more with Sarah in the months and years ahead.

Welcome, Sarah.

Sara (01:29.295) Thank you for having me, Jane.

Jean Blacklock (01:31.458) Well, thanks for being here. So Sarah, when we were discussing our conversation today, I made some suggestions about will planning and all that, and we'll get to that. But you made the very good point that we also very much need to include in our conversation today in competency planning. So I thought it might be valuable to start there. And perhaps you can describe.

to listeners, what estate lawyers mean when they talk about powers of attorney, the different types of powers of attorney, and also how they differ from the powers of attorney that we might choose to use through life, for example, if we're going out of town when our house deal is closing.

Sara (02:13.06) Sure, that's a great point in that powers of attorney to me, I've often said to clients, they're almost more important than wills because you're actually setting out a document that puts people in place to make decisions for you, but you're still alive. And that can go for a very long time. And nowadays, as people are aging better and better and passing away later,

these documents become so much more important as time goes on. So I do certainly encourage people to have powers of attorney along with their wills. just to touch on powers of attorney themselves, they are the documents that you put into place to handle your financial affairs or your personal care matters should you still be alive, but you're not capable of handling them yourself. And then once you pass away,

they're no longer valid. The will takes over and the executive appointed takes over in the will. And in the powers of attorney, there are the types of power of attorney where you set out who you want to act and make decisions on your behalf if you're incapable regarding your assets, your finances, how you want your bills paid, how your assets are managed. The other type of power of attorney

which is commonly referred to as a power of attorney for personal care, is one where you're appointing someone to make healthcare decisions for you. How you wish, where you wish to live, even to the extent, the kind of medical care that you're looking for. And those can further go on to be something called a healthcare directive, where you actually specifically say how you wish to be treated medically.

So there's a combination of those documents that work together.

Jean Blacklock (04:11.35) right. So maybe we can dive into them one at a time. On the personal care, you know, back many years ago when I was doing estate planning, I recall that there was a certain glibness that people seemed to have when it came to the question of who they wanted to name in the document. You know, they would make jokes about, you know, they'd be out of it or, you know, other pejorative type terms. But

What is your advice to people when they're thinking about who they want to make personal care decisions for them if and when that day comes?

Sara (04:50.308) It's a great question because people so naturally think they have an automatic answer to the question, but it can be tricky. So let's start off with the fact that you don't just have, you can have more than one person act for you. You can have two. If it gets, and you're pointing more than two, it gets very complicated. Having too many people, kind of too many cooks in the kitchen gets very complicated. You can also have different people

acting on your power of attorney for your assets versus your power of attorney for personal care. They don't have to be the same people. You just have to make sure they get along because the people who are acting for you with your finances are paying the bills for the people that are spending under the power of attorney for personal care. So you want to make sure they get along. You want to make sure they are willing. So it is very, it is, it is very nice to ask them first if they're willing to act in the future.

And it is helpful if they are local. It is harder to work with these documents and work with the role if somebody is too far out of the jurisdiction. It's doable, it's just harder. It's ideal if they're local. And it is, if you're working with people under personal care or finances, if possible, it's really nice that the person who's handling the finances is good at that.

and understands financial instruments and how the financial services work. Similarly, under personal care, it's nice if the person has a sense for how healthcare works in an ideal situation.

Jean Blacklock (06:34.848) Mm -hmm, exactly. In your view, is there, what is the reason why a person would feel that they would need to name more than one person for those very important roles?

Sara (06:49.336) Well, some families have dynamics where they're concerned that if it's just one person's voice, and say for example, there are other, you have other children more than just one child who's gonna act on your behalf. There's sometimes concerns that the other, the siblings of that individual, there'll be tension in the system and...

Jean Blacklock (07:14.264) Mm

Sara (07:15.172) and some people feel it's a lot to ask one person to do it. So they think I'll point two. Two can provide flexibility. So if one isn't available, the other one is. So there's pros and cons to involving one or two for sure.

Jean Blacklock (07:21.687) Mm

Jean Blacklock (07:34.016) Right, right. What about compensation? the, firstly on the power of attorney for personal care and then on property clauses in the document itself. What are your thoughts on that?

Sara (07:49.39) So you can certainly provide for compensation. would be, it's best to do it in the document itself. There's sort of a general sentiment that if you act under the power of attorney personal care that you're not there to be compensated for it. There is a bit of an assumption on that one. There is, depending on which province you're in, there are guidelines for how powers of attorney for property, for those acting for your assets can get compensated.

Jean Blacklock (07:55.843) Mm

Jean Blacklock (08:05.516) Mm

Sara (08:19.308) So if it goes on for a long time and it's quite a big responsibility and it's taking a lot of time, it can help the individual who's acting under the power of attorney for property to know that they will actually get a bit of compensation for the role. Because it can be a very time consuming job.

Jean Blacklock (08:38.764) Yes, and as you so rightly pointed out at the beginning, it's different than death when, you know, the state administration is maybe long, but it's a finite process. Whereas under a power of attorney, a person can be incompetent for decades. And so it is a job that can go on for a very long time.

Sara (08:56.27) Yeah.

Sara (08:59.682) You can also find yourself acting, and I think we're seeing more and more of it now, and I can actually speak from personal experience too, where the person that you're acting for under the document is still actually competent, but they don't have the ability to get out and get it done, or they're really just too tired, and they just can't function to manage those issues and those matters.

Jean Blacklock (09:15.96) Mm

Jean Blacklock (09:26.968) Mm

Sara (09:29.398) In that case, that's a tricky space too, because they're trying to maintain a certain amount of independence, but you acting under the power of attorney need a certain amount of independence. So it's different kind of dynamic that I think we're seeing more and more of.

Jean Blacklock (09:38.324) Mm

Jean Blacklock (09:42.406) Right. I'm really glad you mentioned that because in the eyes of the law, it's just very important to let people have their agency and autonomy as long as possible and to remove it very gently and carefully and let people make decisions to the extent that they can. So I think that is important. Documents like this often have a of a springing concept. In other words, they're often not valid. Sometimes they're sometimes they

be used anytime to eliminate what I'm about to say, but often they do have a test within them. Two doctors, two together, feel that this is required. What are your thoughts on that? Does that always go smoothly, that process of deciding that it is now appropriate to use the document?

Sara (10:30.436) That's an excellent question. So there are two types of powers of attorney. This is again for property in particular and assets where one document is valid actually as soon as you sign it and you technically are able to give it to the person who is going to be acting and they could act on that power of attorney. So in the example you gave earlier when somebody is leaving the country for a year.

That's the kind of document where the person's still competent, but they need somebody to handle their affairs. So they hand over a power of attorney and that person has the authority to act. The other type is where the individual creating the power of attorney wants to make sure that there are certain conditions put in place so that it is only to be acted on should they become incapable of handling their affairs. That one is a less flexible approach. It's a very tricky one because

Jean Blacklock (11:06.435) Mm

Jean Blacklock (11:20.888) Right.

Sara (11:27.396) Trying to get some people to be seen as incapable of handling their affairs is easier said than done and it can be a very grey area. So you can go through a phase of health where you are sort of capable and sort of not and you really need that power of attorney to be activated but without the clear capacity assessment or letters from the doctor, the families have their hands tied and they're not able to actually act on that document.

So to me, one is more favorable than the other. I prefer the one that's called a continuing power of attorney, the kind that's signed now and continues past the point of incapacity rather than the one that's conditional.

Jean Blacklock (11:56.91) Mm

Jean Blacklock (12:03.159) Mm

Jean Blacklock (12:07.148) Right. And so when you are meeting with couples about that, you explain it as it removes that uncertainty if and when it is needed. the important thing, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps you'd say something along the lines of the important thing is in who you're choosing, who you're naming in that document, that you can trust them, that they will not be using that document prematurely or against your best interest.

Sara (12:29.612) Exactly.

Sara (12:35.35) Exactly, yes. Trust is the ultimate one. Trust to act on your behalf in the way you would wish and at a time when is right, yes.

Jean Blacklock (12:39.425) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (12:45.398) Right, we'll get to estate planning of course but in this area it strikes me as one where both on the personal care and on property that it would be so very important to communicate your how you feel about things to the people that you name in the documents perhaps even you know writing out your thoughts about certain things such as medical care and your wishes about

really difficult decisions maybe at the end of life.

Sara (13:16.544) I agree completely. The easier you can make it for those individuals who'll be acting, the better. So the more advanced notice or even asking them to make sure they're willing to act is best so they know that that's gonna be a responsibility of theirs. And that way you'll know upfront if they don't think they can do it and they have some reasons why not, you can choose somebody else. It gives you a chance to have a bit more control over the circumstances. If you know in advance.

Jean Blacklock (13:23.33) Mm

Jean Blacklock (13:40.792) Mm

Sara (13:44.196) that that dynamic you've put together with those two people may not work so well. So communicating that first and foremost, another one is to definitely have some discussions with them about, know, if you need to be in long -term care, where would you want to be? What kind of end -of -life measures might you like? Do you have certain preferences? You can even go so far as

Jean Blacklock (13:49.005) rate.

Sara (14:14.616) dictating how you want to dress and what you want to eat. It can be a very specific document. But really the more guidance you can give those people to help them understand how they can help make decisions that they know they are acting on your behalf in your best interests. That kind of material and guidance by letter or by conversation is so helpful.

Jean Blacklock (14:22.018) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (14:33.037) Yes.

Jean Blacklock (14:38.758) Right, it really takes any guilt or questioning out of the picture. Yeah.

Sara (14:43.476) As much as you can. And at the end of the day, life has a way of turning corners and the people that are appointed, you have to trust them to know you and to really act in your best interests in the best way they feel you would have wanted.

Jean Blacklock (14:59.724) Right. One of the most sage things about, and actually the end of life that I've heard recently was from a woman whose father, who's now passed away, was a physician. And what he said about making that decision was just so pragmatic. And it was like, you you could try to draw up every different thing about how the end of my life is going to be and put it into a document and

it wouldn't be what's going to happen. But you know what? And he said this, just trust the attending physicians. The attending physicians will tell you what to do and when. I just, coming from a physician, I just thought that felt so right, you know, because often when physicians that we've developed a sense of rapport with,

Sara (15:35.705) Yes.

Jean Blacklock (15:54.584) tell us something, you know, this is something just to monitor or this is something that needs to come out. We do it because we trust them and it makes sense. I really like that. Words like, you know, don't let me be in a vegetative state or don't do heroic measures. mean, every estate lawyer knows that really language like that's just not going to go very far with the medical profession.

Sara (16:15.811) Yeah.

Sara (16:19.778) Right, and I think that is great pragmatic advice, trust the system, have faith in the system, I agree. The one that people I think stress the most about is they say, don't want to be just left plug -in to a machine. I don't want to be living in that kind of state. on that one, I do think you need to be aligned with the people that are appointed that will respect that.

Jean Blacklock (16:35.683) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (16:39.138) Yes.

Jean Blacklock (16:46.05) Mm -hmm. Great.

Sara (16:47.768) because that's a very, very hard decision. They call it pulling the plug. It's not quite like that, but it's allowing life to take its course in that way. And I know of a situation where somebody had appointed one person who was a very, very religious individual with someone who wasn't. the person who knew they were gonna pass away said, I don't want to keep going.

Jean Blacklock (16:50.701) Right.

Jean Blacklock (16:57.185) Yes.

Sara (17:17.614) you know, I potentially might like to use made, et cetera. And the two children who had been appointed had a discussion and they said, we can't act together on this because we are going to approach this very differently. And so before it got too late, he actually changed the document to appoint the person that he felt would be the one that would honor his wishes the best. So again, back to the conversations, if he can, if he can have those conversations, they're hard, hard conversations.

Jean Blacklock (17:20.289) Okay. Yes.

Jean Blacklock (17:31.022) Mm

Jean Blacklock (17:38.84) right.

Jean Blacklock (17:43.628) Yes. for sure. And I'll, since you mentioned Maid, I will go there, but with the caveat that I really have not done any personal research on it, I'm fairly ignorant about it, but I do believe, and so I'm asking you, I do believe that at this point it is something that we cannot direct, that we want when we're incompetent. I believe at this stage we, an individual needs to be competent.

right up to the last moment to say that this is what they want. that your understanding of meat?

Sara (18:16.066) Yes, there's a couple of little wrinkle in there, but I won't kind of go into it in this context. But for the most part, yes, the person does need to be competent to be able to give their consent at the 11th hour. Yes.

Jean Blacklock (18:28.918) Okay, so moving from powers of attorney for personal care and for property to will planning. I mentioned to you that in episode four of the podcast when Andrew and I were chatting, we talked about the fact that there's a lot of decisions in estate planning, usually for most of us, that are fairly straightforward. We've made up our mind, it's clear, it's non -contentious as far as we know. But then there's, in most cases, one or two or three areas that are sticky, like that...

cause some consternation in your, hundreds of probably thousands of couples that you've met with over the years. What are the sticky points Sarah that you've seen in people when they come together? And it's usually together. I know it's not single people do -wells as well, but when people come together, families come together, what trips them up?

Sara (19:21.604) Well, I can think of a few things, Jean, that immediately came to mind when you talked about being stuck. And I'd actually like to suggest that the very first will that couples do is the hardest. And because they haven't thought through these things, they haven't thought through all the what ifs that go into planning a will. And so on those, and when it's particular, it's your first one, the one that often people get stuck with is guardianship.

Jean Blacklock (19:33.963) Jean Blacklock (19:39.618) Mm -hmm. Mm

Sara (19:49.336) They don't know who to, if they are not there and they have a child, who is gonna look after their child if something happens to the two of them together? They often get stuck on that. Another place they get stuck, it's a far -flung contingency, but it's one that people get stuck on, and that is if something happens collectively. So the two of them, and then you get into which causes do you support, which family members do you support or not support.

Jean Blacklock (20:00.515) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (20:11.202) yes.

Sara (20:18.468) And they can really get stuck on that, even though it is a far contingency, it is a question that has to be asked in a well thought out will. Another one that we see, they definitely get stuck on what to do with the family cottage or cabin, if they have one. That one's a good one. I think those are actually the top three, I would say.

Jean Blacklock (20:25.492) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. For sure.

Jean Blacklock (20:37.037) Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (20:45.665) Mm -hmm. Right.

Sara (20:47.468) where when it comes to guardianship, I always, to say, and it's true for some of these decisions, maybe sometimes what you do is actually you have to pick your least worst option.

Jean Blacklock (21:00.076) Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And applicable there is the comment you made earlier about the power of attorney for personal care and power of attorney for property. Whoever you name as the guardian may also be the trustee of the trust for your minor children or may not be and maybe it shouldn't be for, I would say it's probably shouldn't be.

Sara (21:01.494) and then just keep moving and get it done. Get the plan done.

Sara (21:21.806) Yeah. All right.

Jean Blacklock (21:28.62) But thinking through that possible conflict between controlling the estate that you leave behind and raising your minor children, perhaps in conjunction with raising the Guardian's own minor children. There's lots of complexities there.

Sara (21:46.752) it's a great point. And it is again, a lot to think through and ask an individual to step into your shoes and look after your children and all the things that go into that and manage the funds on their behalf. You are essentially asking somebody to be a gatekeeper of those funds for those children as they get older. And that, the children get older, that can put that person in a really, really challenging position sometimes.

Jean Blacklock (22:07.992) Yeah.

Sara (22:15.816) And sometimes the best solution is to have somebody more neutral, more objective, who manages the trust funds according to how you've planned in your will and works along with the guardian for the interests of the children.

Jean Blacklock (22:32.47) Right. I think going back to our former lives in trust companies, I think it strikes me as an opportunity when a couple might consider a trust company for that role because the trust is going to be long, moving from minor children to adults. It's going to go through the teenage years where they want all the money and they want it now. a trust company could possibly really provide value at that point.

Sara (22:57.604) Well, they do, particularly because trust companies have the infrastructure that support these trusts long -term, and they have the documents and the support for the discretionary decisions that have to be made by the trustee. They make sure all the tax returns are filed. They make sure that the trust is being run properly and in accordance with regulations in the law. again, one of these things, as you look out, what can happen is you have your children

Jean Blacklock (23:04.204) Mm

Sara (23:26.188) And then as the children get older, they get together with partners and sometimes the partners can become backseat drivers and question things and try and poke holes in things and make life difficult for the person that's the gatekeeper for the money that they think they deserve. So again, yes, a trust company is a terrific option for things like that.

Jean Blacklock (23:36.898) Mm -hmm.

Jean Blacklock (23:40.653) Mm

Jean Blacklock (23:44.407) rape.

Jean Blacklock (23:48.826) Yeah, so neutral. That brings me to another point that again arises wherever money is held in trust, whether that's for a person who's becoming competent or minor children or just ongoing trust as an estate is being administered and that is frankly fraud. You know, the case law is riffed with cases where, you know, whole house renovations have taken place.

largely from mom's money because you know mom wanted that but mom has been incompetent for a decade. This is an issue. It's an issue that seems to be increasing if you know it's certainly not going down. What are your thoughts? Can things be done in the planning stage to mitigate this?

Sara (24:42.564) So if we take it as a given that there's more and more people out there trying to take advantage of elderly people, yes, let's start there. Absolutely. Because it's something that banks in particular get a lot of training around to help recognize the people that are not necessarily acting in mom's best interests when they're trying to deal with her funds. To protect

Jean Blacklock (25:05.848) Mm

Sara (25:12.26) to protect the mom, the dad with those finances. Certainly having a really good relationship with the advisor that is managing the funds, let's start there because that's an extra layer of protection for mom. Because if the advisor knows mom and knows the kids, they'll know if there's a rogue third party coming in and trying to stir the pot and cause problems.

Jean Blacklock (25:28.332) Mm

Sara (25:38.326) And so there's an extra stopgap. It's not anonymous. It's somebody you know and somebody you trust and count on to work with the family. Certainly having powers of attorney in place that give very clear authority, definitely. And I would say, again, having a circle of people that have their eye on how you're living, how you're spending your money so that you're not

Jean Blacklock (25:45.837) Mm

Jean Blacklock (25:51.384) Mm

Jean Blacklock (26:05.998) Mm

Sara (26:07.566) You're just not completely acting alone independently in a silo. It's a bit of a community, I think, that can really help this.

Jean Blacklock (26:13.772) Mm -hmm. Yeah, and when you say alone in a silo, you mean the person named under a power of attorney, not doing it in the shadows, but more or less doing it out in the daylight, perhaps even within a... I know if it was me, I would want to present an annual accounting. Like that would just seem to be something that would avoid any questions. Yeah, that's...

Sara (26:23.449) Right.

Sara (26:33.017) Yes.

Sara (26:39.106) Yeah, so can give you just again another example. And this is a personal one. I was acting with my brother for my dad's power of attorney. And every few months I would send out a report to my sibling and my mom to let them know what the funds were doing, what had been spent, decisions that had been made so they didn't feel out of the loop. And it just allowed them to feel that they were in concert. We were kind of acting in concert.

Jean Blacklock (26:42.466) Mm

Jean Blacklock (26:46.849) Okay.

Jean Blacklock (26:50.84) Mm.

Jean Blacklock (27:07.264) Right, it's funny now that you mentioned that, that is exactly what my sister did when my parents were elderly and you know, just common sense, right? Yeah. Family cottages and don't cringe now. But this is particularly, I find coming from Western Canada, this wasn't an issue. The issue out there is farmland, farming, a desire to keep actively farming, but not everybody wants to be farming.

Sara (27:15.512) Yes.

Sara (27:30.999) Okay, yeah.

Jean Blacklock (27:37.166) It's hard to get the value of the farm out, et cetera. But as soon as I moved to Eastern Canada, I realized that people and families are very attached to their family cottages. What have you seen in planning that doesn't work so well? What have you seen that does work quite well when there's a beloved cottage?

Sara (27:47.342) Yes.

Sara (27:59.204) So it's so family specific for what's best for what to have for the cottage. And the cottage is interesting because it's one of those assets where you can be pretty sure you'll probably still own it at the time you pass away. Where you can't necessarily say the same, you won't necessarily own your business when you're 95. You've probably consolidated a lot of your assets and simplified things.

Jean Blacklock (28:02.38) Okay, sure.

Jean Blacklock (28:18.157) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Sara (28:28.302) But the family cottage is often the one that you hang on to right through. And when you're planning for that decades ahead, to try and figure out where that cottage goes is so hard. I call it a little bit like trying to name your grand daughter's cat in that you're trying to think through so many scenarios and pinpoint who's going to be using the cottage, who can afford to use the cottage, who's going to be paying for the maintenance.

Jean Blacklock (28:32.462) Mm

Jean Blacklock (28:47.744) You

Jean Blacklock (28:55.725) Yes.

Sara (28:57.9) Who's going to be taking advantage of all the other siblings for bringing up their family when the other family member doesn't have any children and they don't take advantage of it to the same degree? So is it fair to put all three names on it equally? There's so many different twists that you can do with a cottage. It can be really hard to look way ahead and see the best way to do it. So what I've said often when you're getting into these tricky decisions is let's start with the fact that you're really just planning

Really, if something should happen to you in the next seven to 10 years, use that window first. Know you kind of have a sense for where your family's at, where their children are at, if you have any grandchildren, the use of the cottage, and you have a sense for how it is right now. And in seven to 10 years, if that has changed, you can always change your will account to meet the new circumstances. So you don't have to feel that you're creating the plan to last for the next 30 years.

plan it as if something's gonna happen in the next seven to 10. And then as time goes on, if you find there are marriage breakdowns or remarriages or new children and new partners on the scene, you're always free to adjust it. One of the, I would say more popular ideas when somebody doesn't, it can't really nail down the way they want things to go because they're just not sure how their kids feel about it.

Jean Blacklock (30:04.245) Mm

Sara (30:25.592) So aside from having those critical conversations with those children ahead of time, another way I've suggested is to actually create a little bit of wiggle room in the will where you give them two to three years to sort it out after you've passed away. So you essentially hold that family cottage in a trust for three years and basically say, you've got three years to figure this out.

Jean Blacklock (30:28.514) Mm

Mm

Jean Blacklock (30:48.366) Mm

Sara (30:54.38) And if you don't figure it out, this is the way it's gonna go. So that they have a chance to buy somebody out, to raise the funds, to say, I'm not interested in this, you can have it. And it gives a little bit of flexibility and cushion to deal with the circumstances as they are when you do actually pass away without forcing a decision.

Jean Blacklock (30:57.837) right.

Jean Blacklock (31:10.487) Mm

Jean Blacklock (31:14.69) That's excellent. Yeah, that's excellent. And of course then also setting aside a fund of money to look after it in that. So you're taking all the pressure off. They can use this thing and somebody can get their pennies together to buy it out or yeah, they can. Yeah, that's a really great idea. Moving over to the advisor then, many people listening to the podcast will be advisors.

Sara (31:21.76) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (31:43.274) wealth managers, investment counselors, whatever that may be and increasingly as the years go by, I think advisors recognize that part of the value, a big part of the value that they bring is not, you know, the latest greatest stock pick but helping the family think about its goals and its future and that includes everything we've been talking about estate planning. What are your suggestions for the advisors who

just can't seem to, the advisor in a situation where it seems a bit intractable. The clients seem to have something going on that they simply don't want to talk about. There are no, let's say there's no planning at all. There's sort of like looks exchanged across the table. You sense that there's something. What would be some suggestions you might have to help that advisor?

First of all, chat with the clients and then perhaps, and of course then move them onto a lawyer for help.

Sara (32:50.018) Yeah, that's a good question because the role of the advisor is so critical, but at the same time, they can't force their client's hand on this one. They see the benefit, they see the need to get it done and how important it is, and they can also see the client struggling. So they can be a little bit stuck. I've always appreciated the advisors who, first of all, visit this issue at least once a year.

Jean Blacklock (33:00.449) No.

Jean Blacklock (33:19.352) Mm

Sara (33:19.844) and ask them whether they've got current documents. And also stay current with the client to the extent where if something changes in that client's life, they're in a position to be able to say, know, that may impact your estate plan. Let's pull out those documents, talk about it a bit, bring in an advisor to help see whether that change in...

the marital circumstances or the grandchildren or whatever is impacting your estate plan. So the advisor who helps the client stay current is terrific, first off. When the client is struggling, and I remember I used to have a pile of them on my desk, the client, those were the clients that I had done the work as far as I could, and then it was just waiting for them to come back. And every now and then I'd haul them out and I'd say, how are you, you know.

Jean Blacklock (33:59.693) Mm

Sara (34:16.984) Are you ready to make any decisions yet? It's been a while. And some of the tricks of the trade. One, I said, let's create a false deadline. Or let's look at a real deadline. You're going on a trip. You wanna make sure this is done before you go on your trip. Or if the struggle is actually that the documents just aren't being prepared, you say, okay, let's create a false deadline and say, pretend you're going on a trip and let's get this done and get it off your plate.

Jean Blacklock (34:17.409) Hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jean Blacklock (34:29.996) Ma.

Sara (34:46.98) The advisors can also help facilitate it if it works for the family. They could, if there's a sticky point in some of the decisions that are being made and the client doesn't really know how to communicate that to the family and really talk it out, there's really terrific facilitators out there that can step in and help facilitate that discussion. And the advisor's part of that meeting.

Jean Blacklock (35:01.176) Mm

Jean Blacklock (35:06.456) Yeah.

Sara (35:15.95) being the neutral person there that people know and trust and the facilitator is there to kind of explain the circumstances and help the clients move through the sticky point to a decision.

Jean Blacklock (35:27.276) Right, right. In the book that I'm working on that I know you're familiar with, I spoke with a lawyer who said, when we were talking about this, she said that she would be more than willing to have a meeting with all the family. And she made the excellent point that a key point for her as a lawyer would be to make it very clear that she's not acting for the family. She's acting for the couple. Your mom and dad are my clients.

Sara (35:52.952) Right. Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (35:57.13) you may well want to get your own legal advice, but mom and dad want to talk to you about X and I want to make sure that I'm here to explain anything and you know that struck me as something that could be quite effective. Even maybe being in a more neutral boardroom setting than the family dining room table.

Sara (36:19.22) I remember one and it actually was around a boardroom and they brought the family in. At this point, children aren't children, they're adults. They're full adults at this point, right? With their own families. And so the clients brought in the children and then they brought in the lawyer who was working on the documents to go through the materials so that the children understood what was being drafted. The parents had a chance to say why.

Jean Blacklock (36:22.52) Mm

Jean Blacklock (36:30.582) Right. Yeah.

Sara (36:48.152) those decisions were being made. And if there's any misunderstanding or disagreement, it was to be tabled there and not later. And it was an objective setting. It wasn't at their house. It was in the boardroom of the office.

Jean Blacklock (36:55.17) Mm.

Jean Blacklock (36:58.915) Mm

Jean Blacklock (37:02.185) And how did that go?

Sara (37:03.592) really well, really well. They had to behave because they weren't in a home environment. They had a couple of professionals there in the meeting and they could see the seriousness of it and the importance of arriving at a decision that the people could more or less buy into. It's rarely perfect, but you do your best you can.

Jean Blacklock (37:13.827) Right.

Jean Blacklock (37:31.938) Yeah, yeah. Like you, I'm very lucky to have wonderful adult children and they're great fun all the time, but I'm often struck by, you know, if one of my friends come in or something like that and they're introduced, you know, you see a whole other side of your adult children when they're interacting with other adults. It's like, isn't that, I raised a very, knows how to have a good conversation there. So anyway, that's, you know.

Sara (37:48.804) you

Sara (37:53.73) So true. Who's that?

Jean Blacklock (38:01.57) Exactly. You know, and that's in a social situation. So I can see the value of that. You know, this is serious and mom and dad care enough that they're having this serious meeting. You've been very generous with your time. As we wrap up, I'd like to ask you two different pieces of advice. Firstly, for clients and next for advisors. So clients that are struggling with something, perhaps even the whole topic.

of estate planning or a particular issue. You've given lots of pieces of advice during our time, but is there anything that you might leave them with in terms of like how to move forward?

Sara (38:44.854) It takes a bit of courage to make certain decisions. And it would be the thought again that this isn't necessarily your last will. You can change it. It is a flexible document. I know lots of people that have done multiple wills to try and keep them as current as possible. If they find the documents themselves still don't go far enough,

Jean Blacklock (38:57.848) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jean Blacklock (39:03.884) Yes.

Sara (39:12.504) to express how they feel about certain decisions they're making and paths they're choosing, write a letter. Write a letter that accompanies the document, that explains why you've made certain decisions, particularly if you're uncomfortable talking with your children about it, which is pretty common. Write it out, put it in a letter, and put it along with the will so that if something should happen and they are reading the will, they have the letter to accompany it that explains your thinking.

Jean Blacklock (39:21.592) Mm

Jean Blacklock (39:29.154) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jean Blacklock (39:39.15) Yeah, that's really great. And I love, and you'd mentioned it earlier as well, I really liked the idea of looking at a will as you were talking about as cottages, but you know, let's think of this as seven to eight years. It's also like quite an upbeat way of probably nothing's going to happen to you in the next seven to eight years. So let's give it our best shot for this will and do what makes sense today and knowing that we will probably update it again. It's a nice balance between having people

pay attention and not just doing anything, but at the same time, not letting the idea of excellence get in the way of good enough. Right?

Sara (40:16.644) so true. it's also because it is a very, it is a hard thing for people to do. It's almost a relief for them to know they don't have to do it again for another 10 years. You know, because you get it done, you kind of like to think it's the last time you ever have to do it, but it's not. It's one of those things you want to keep current.

Jean Blacklock (40:26.742) Yeah, right.

Jean Blacklock (40:35.442) And we haven't touched on this yet, but mean, intestacy, leaving your family with no will at all, mean, you know, that's rough. Right. Yeah, so preventable.

Sara (40:43.842) Yeah, that's not fair. That's so preventable. Even if it's just a simple document. Doesn't even have to be fancy, just something is better than nothing, for sure.

Jean Blacklock (40:52.344) Right.

Yeah and you've already given the advice to the advisors about the either real deadline getting their will done by the time they're going off to like South Africa for their safari or perhaps like making up a deadline like how about Christmas how about we get this done by by Christmas. So those are are really helpful ideas also trying to get them as I understood what you were saying trying to get them to move forward

Sara (41:11.988) Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jean Blacklock (41:24.342) at any possible little thing that comes up like, son is getting married. This might be a time to look at your will, know, like keeping it, reminding them of the currency of it and, you know, when they might want to look at it again. Is there any other pieces of advice that for the advisor you might want to share?

Sara (41:44.756) I would ask, I would have the advisor ask the client, how can I help you make sure this gets done? Do you want me to send you an email every three months? Do you want me to just leave you alone and not, not really get involved in this? Or how can I help you and let the client come back to you about ideas for the best way to keep them honest in the process.

Jean Blacklock (41:53.272) Mmm.

Jean Blacklock (42:12.64) love it. Love it. I absolutely love that. Don't an open ended question. Don't ask them Is there anything I can do to help? Because you're going to get the big fat no. But asking the question, how can I help you? In fact, how can we make this fun? Yeah, that's really that's really great. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. Well, I hope to have you on the podcast again. And I really appreciate your time.

Sara (42:21.866) No, no how yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me how Right, yep, yep

Sara (42:36.318) you're welcome.

Sara (42:40.707) was my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

Jean Blacklock (42:43.158) Okay, thanks, Sarah.