INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we

INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection from

INTRO: inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

NATALIE DORMER: Hello, I'm Natalie Dormer.

NATALIE DORMER: I'm an actor and producer in the world of TV

NATALIE DORMER: and film, but I'm also very proud to be a

NATALIE DORMER: Childline ambassador for the NSPCC,

NATALIE DORMER: and I've been involved with the NSPCC for the last eight years now.

NATALIE DORMER: So today I'm here on the NSPCC Learning Podcast with two teachers to

NATALIE DORMER: talk about what it's like to teach sex and

NATALIE DORMER: relationships education, some of the

NATALIE DORMER: challenges schools can face and some advice, tips and support.

NATALIE DORMER: In 2020, the Everyone's Invited

NATALIE DORMER: campaign highlighted the number of young

NATALIE DORMER: people who have experienced sexual

NATALIE DORMER: harassment and abuse in secondary schools.

NATALIE DORMER: In the same year, sex and relationships

NATALIE DORMER: education became a statutory part of

NATALIE DORMER: the curriculum in England and Wales.

NATALIE DORMER: The NSPCC recognised the need for a service

NATALIE DORMER: that supports schools and teachers to

NATALIE DORMER: confidently deliver sex and relationships

NATALIE DORMER: education, helping young people to recognise

NATALIE DORMER: healthy relationships and seek help if they need it.

NATALIE DORMER: And so in 2021, the NSPCC

NATALIE DORMER: launched Talk Relationships to support

NATALIE DORMER: secondary schools and their teachers with

NATALIE DORMER: the really quite complex and sensitive task

NATALIE DORMER: of effective sex and relationships education

NATALIE DORMER: as a vital role in the safeguarding of young people.

NATALIE DORMER: An elearning course was designed to increase

NATALIE DORMER: the skills, confidence and knowledge of

NATALIE DORMER: teachers tasked with this.

NATALIE DORMER: And a series of lesson plans was created too

NATALIE DORMER: to help teachers and schools with the big

NATALIE DORMER: questions of what is age appropriate and

NATALIE DORMER: other particular challenges in this area.

NATALIE DORMER: These are all available to you online,

NATALIE DORMER: teachers listening right now as I speak, and

NATALIE DORMER: our two guests today have had a chance to

NATALIE DORMER: look at them themselves.

NATALIE DORMER: Now, whilst designing and launching these

NATALIE DORMER: online resources, there was also a research

NATALIE DORMER: project commissioned by the NSPCC and

NATALIE DORMER: conducted by Cardiff University and UCL,

NATALIE DORMER: that surveyed young people's thoughts and

NATALIE DORMER: experiences on relationships, sex and

NATALIE DORMER: sexuality.

NATALIE DORMER: That report, titled 'We Have to Educate

NATALIE DORMER: Ourselves', had fascinating insights and

NATALIE DORMER: results that I will also touch on with my

NATALIE DORMER: two lovely teachers here today, and it's

NATALIE DORMER: available on the NSPCC Learning website

NATALIE DORMER: for you to download now.

NATALIE DORMER: So, just to say, for the purpose of today's

NATALIE DORMER: podcast, we'll use the term ‘sex and

NATALIE DORMER: relationships education’ to encompass the

NATALIE DORMER: whole range of different terms used across

NATALIE DORMER: the four nations of the UK.

NATALIE DORMER: Some of you listening will know it as RSHE

NATALIE DORMER: in England, RSHP in Scotland or RSE

NATALIE DORMER: in Wales and Northern Ireland.

NATALIE DORMER: But for our purposes, to save confusion,

NATALIE DORMER: we'll refer to it as sex and relationship

NATALIE DORMER: education. The next phase of the NSPCC's

NATALIE DORMER: Talk Relationships is looking at that

NATALIE DORMER: feedback — what young people have said — and

NATALIE DORMER: more research about how the NSPCC can really

NATALIE DORMER: help schools and teachers embed healthy

NATALIE DORMER: relationships into the wider school culture

NATALIE DORMER: and empower young people to speak up and seek help.

NATALIE DORMER: Launched this April 2024, is a new

NATALIE DORMER: whole school approach to sex and

NATALIE DORMER: relationships education as part of the Talk

NATALIE DORMER: Relationships resources, and we hope that

NATALIE DORMER: this podcast today goes some way to helping

NATALIE DORMER: start that conversation.

NATALIE DORMER: So without further ado, who better to talk

NATALIE DORMER: about these responsibilities and

NATALIE DORMER: opportunities than to hear from two teachers

NATALIE DORMER: who are actually delivering SRE, and to hear

NATALIE DORMER: them share their own experiences and

NATALIE DORMER: thoughts — two dear friends of mine that

NATALIE DORMER: I'm so grateful have taken time to join me

NATALIE DORMER: today — Pete and Sarah.

NATALIE DORMER: Guys, would you like to introduce yourselves?

PETE BASHAM: Hi, I'm Peter Basham.

PETE BASHAM: I'm a teacher of science and form tutor

PETE BASHAM: in a state-funded secondary school.

PETE BASHAM: And I deliver what we call PSHE, but is the programme.

SARAH OAKES: My name is Sarah Oakes. I work in an

SARAH OAKES: independent prep school in Dorset, and my role

SARAH OAKES: is director of performing arts.

SARAH OAKES: But on top of that, I am head of RSE and PSHE as well.

SARAH OAKES: I deliver the curriculum to my form

SARAH OAKES: as well as overseeing the curriculum for

SARAH OAKES: the whole school.

NATALIE DORMER: So I think the obvious question to start

NATALIE DORMER: with is how does SRE in your schools

NATALIE DORMER: compare to how you were taught this subject

NATALIE DORMER: when you were young?

PETE BASHAM: I think when I was young, it wasn't really a

PETE BASHAM: particularly well delivered thing.

PETE BASHAM: There wasn't a lot of

PETE BASHAM: insight into any kind of diversity or inclusion

PETE BASHAM: of anything other than what was considered

PETE BASHAM: then the norm, I guess.

PETE BASHAM: And even then it was mainly delivered in a

PETE BASHAM: biological, clinical way of just

PETE BASHAM: preventing teenage pregnancy, basically.

NATALIE DORMER: With no nod to emotional engagement.

PETE BASHAM: Yeah. None. None at all. Compared to now when

PETE BASHAM: there's a lot more around consent and around

PETE BASHAM: the emotional impact of sex.

PETE BASHAM: And I think that, yeah, in my day,

PETE BASHAM: there was none of that.

SARAH OAKES: It was all incredibly taboo, wasn't it, to even

SARAH OAKES: say the word, I think.

SARAH OAKES: And so much scaremongering, as well as just

SARAH OAKES: sort of focusing on the negative aspects of

SARAH OAKES: developing your bodies enough to want to have sex

SARAH OAKES: and all the things that come with that.

SARAH OAKES: There was certainly no emotional aspect.

SARAH OAKES: And it was all taught

SARAH OAKES: with an entirely binary approach as well.

SARAH OAKES: So the inclusivity and the diversity of the

SARAH OAKES: conversations that we managed to have now are far

SARAH OAKES: away from what I certainly experienced when I was at school.

NATALIE DORMER: But having read the survey that the NSPCC

NATALIE DORMER: commissioned, it still feels like the

NATALIE DORMER: feedback from the young people is

NATALIE DORMER: that sex and relationship education can

NATALIE DORMER: still be quite poor and patchy.

NATALIE DORMER: What I found so fascinating about the survey

NATALIE DORMER: was looking across a whole range of

NATALIE DORMER: elements from social media, popular

NATALIE DORMER: culture, peer pressure.

NATALIE DORMER: I mean, obviously social media is a massive

NATALIE DORMER: one that we'll talk about today.

NATALIE DORMER: But let's start on the positive.

NATALIE DORMER: Let's talk about some of the successes that

NATALIE DORMER: you guys have had in your experience of

NATALIE DORMER: teaching sex and relationships education.

NATALIE DORMER: Is there something that springs to mind

NATALIE DORMER: where you can cite some really positive

NATALIE DORMER: movement in this area? Sarah.

SARAH OAKES: So we've recently had a fantastic day of

SARAH OAKES: workshops — actually from an outside company —

SARAH OAKES: which is a really great way to freshen things

SARAH OAKES: up a little bit. The children have a different

SARAH OAKES: voice to listen to and some different

SARAH OAKES: activities to do. It was a day that the

SARAH OAKES: children really weren't expecting and included

SARAH OAKES: some model making of various body

SARAH OAKES: parts, which was really great fun.

SARAH OAKES: The overuse of the word vulva at the school

SARAH OAKES: that day was increased 1,000%.

SARAH OAKES: But it was a really, really fun day and just

SARAH OAKES: normalised a whole heap of things that people

SARAH OAKES: just really struggle to talk about a lot of the

SARAH OAKES: time. And everybody had a really fun time.

SARAH OAKES: And like I said, it was a different voice to

SARAH OAKES: listen to and was a really nice practical

SARAH OAKES: way of talking about things.

PETE BASHAM: In my school recently, in the last few years

PETE BASHAM: there's a big focus on EDI and the EDI coordinator—

NATALIE DORMER: EDI, Pete, tell me about it.

PETE BASHAM: Equality, diversity and inclusion.

PETE BASHAM: One of the great things about that is currently

PETE BASHAM: we've got an assistant EDI coordinator, who is

PETE BASHAM: a former student and only recently was a student.

PETE BASHAM: And he has been running talks

PETE BASHAM: on what it's like to come out as a young gay man

PETE BASHAM: in a boys' school, his experiences, and been doing whole school

PETE BASHAM: assemblies across the whole school from year

PETE BASHAM: seven all the way up. And that's been really

PETE BASHAM: interesting to see how differently students

PETE BASHAM: respond to someone who's really close to their

PETE BASHAM: age who is only just a few years

PETE BASHAM: ahead, compared to if it was someone,

PETE BASHAM: sort of coming in, who was our age.

NATALIE DORMER: Holding an authoritative— or a grown-up

NATALIE DORMER: authoritative figure, yeah. PETE BASHAM: Yeah, exactly.

PETE BASHAM: And so that's been a real success and has led

PETE BASHAM: to wider conversations in the school around

PETE BASHAM: that and how we can continue to

PETE BASHAM: grow and be as inclusive a school as we can be.

SARAH OAKES: I think social media, although it poses so many

SARAH OAKES: issues for children, I think the normalising of

SARAH OAKES: even talking about things like this is a great

SARAH OAKES: product of that. Children are much more used to

SARAH OAKES: certain terminologies and starting

SARAH OAKES: conversations about things that it becomes a

SARAH OAKES: little easier to start a conversation

SARAH OAKES: with children these days.

NATALIE DORMER: There's more peer-to-peer exchange of information.

SARAH OAKES: Absolutely. But I think they're still gleaning

SARAH OAKES: too much information from social media and

SARAH OAKES: trusting in it far too much because

SARAH OAKES: there is still stigma within schools and within

SARAH OAKES: delivering those lessons.

PETE BASHAM: Yeah. I think, in terms of what

PETE BASHAM: is working, like you say,

PETE BASHAM: the fact that the conversations are easier to

PETE BASHAM: start with the students because they already

PETE BASHAM: have a baseline knowledge, whether it's from

PETE BASHAM: social media, or from their parents or whoever,

PETE BASHAM: or from their peers. The difficulty is then

PETE BASHAM: sometimes there's misconceptions there.

PETE BASHAM: The reverse side of that is that if they've got

PETE BASHAM: the information from TikTok, who's giving them that information?

NATALIE DORMER: And I think that young people — from what I

NATALIE DORMER: read in the survey — I feel like young

NATALIE DORMER: people are aware of that.

NATALIE DORMER: They're aware to be suspicious of the resources

NATALIE DORMER: And they wish that there

NATALIE DORMER: was almost a stamp of approval that they

NATALIE DORMER: knew whether a website or a platform was

NATALIE DORMER: trustworthy in its information or not.

NATALIE DORMER: It feels like they're asking for that.

SARAH OAKES: I think they are, but I think they're still

SARAH OAKES: getting it wrong. I think there's a lot of

SARAH OAKES: influence out there that is very misguided

SARAH OAKES: and underhand, and is still leading people

SARAH OAKES: in the wrong directions; young people in the wrong directions.

NATALIE DORMER: Okay. So that's great because that's leading

NATALIE DORMER: us on to the next question, really, about

NATALIE DORMER: what you think some of the biggest

NATALIE DORMER: challenges for teachers are when delivering

NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationship education.

NATALIE DORMER: We're talking about the potential for

NATALIE DORMER: misinformation as one, for social media,

NATALIE DORMER: that teachers might be combatting.

NATALIE DORMER: What do you think, Sarah, is the

NATALIE DORMER: biggest challenge in delivering?

SARAH OAKES: The hugest challenge, I think, is having the

SARAH OAKES: confidence to open up a conversation when you

SARAH OAKES: don't know where it's going to go. Children

SARAH OAKES: will ask you absolutely anything if they're in

SARAH OAKES: a safe space to do so, which they should be in

SARAH OAKES: this scenario. And having that confidence to

SARAH OAKES: just open up a room, not knowing

SARAH OAKES: what's going to come your way. And when you're

SARAH OAKES: starting out as a teacher, often you don't know

SARAH OAKES: you're going to end up teaching PSHE.

SARAH OAKES: It's not a subject that you go to university to

SARAH OAKES: study, to then become a teacher in.

SARAH OAKES: And so many of us end up delivering those

SARAH OAKES: lessons to our forms or to our year groups

SARAH OAKES: and it's a huge responsibility.

SARAH OAKES: And I think when you've got social media

SARAH OAKES: saying all kinds of things to the pupils in

SARAH OAKES: front of you, you have to be three steps

SARAH OAKES: ahead of that. So if somebody asks you about

SARAH OAKES: Andrew Tate, for instance, you have to know a

SARAH OAKES: little bit about Andrew Tate to be able to

SARAH OAKES: set the record straight on a lot of those things.

SARAH OAKES: So it's not knowing what's going to come your way.

SARAH OAKES: And not every teacher feels

SARAH OAKES: 100% happy and confident in that environment.

PETE BASHAM: Yeah. One of the things that I think I'll pick

PETE BASHAM: up on is that when you train as a teacher,

PETE BASHAM: you're a subject specialist and you train to

PETE BASHAM: teach a particular subject. So, in my case, it

PETE BASHAM: was biology. So whilst I might teach a little

PETE BASHAM: bit of physics as well or a bit of chemistry,

PETE BASHAM: my main focus is biology.

PETE BASHAM: So I very much feel like the expert in the room.

PETE BASHAM: Whereas sometimes with some of the

PETE BASHAM: questions that you get fielded in a PSHE

PETE BASHAM: class, you don't always feel like the expert in

PETE BASHAM: the room. And that can be quite challenging for a teacher.

NATALIE DORMER: A teacher doesn't become a teacher with the

NATALIE DORMER: sole motivation, very often, of delivering

NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationship education.

NATALIE DORMER: It's an add-on.

PETE BASHAM: It's an add-on, yeah. NATALIE DORMER: And for some teachers, I'm presuming it's an

NATALIE DORMER: add-on that they find quite daunting.

PETE BASHAM: Yes, because also one of the things that

PETE BASHAM: happens with that is that it's an add-on with a

PETE BASHAM: heap of legislation and government-mandated

PETE BASHAM: legal requirements, which can be

PETE BASHAM: quite intimidating for an early career teacher;

PETE BASHAM: because you know that you have to deliver

PETE BASHAM: a certain number of things, and if you don't do that,

PETE BASHAM: you've failed in your statutory duty.

PETE BASHAM: So that means that often, I think that's why

PETE BASHAM: some PSHE lessons end up with just following

PETE BASHAM: the presentation on the board, because at least

PETE BASHAM: then we know we've got everything ticked off.

PETE BASHAM: So it's not terribly creative.

PETE BASHAM: All the things you learn about how to teach

PETE BASHAM: effectively, we don't tend to do in PSHE

PETE BASHAM: because you are so concerned about

PETE BASHAM: making sure you hit a statutory requirement legally as well.

SARAH OAKES: And as a subject specific teacher, you often

SARAH OAKES: end up having a form or a tutor group that you

SARAH OAKES: are pastorally in charge of;

SARAH OAKES: and alongside that comes the PSHE teaching that you

SARAH OAKES: probably didn't bargain for when you were training

SARAH OAKES: to be a teacher. PETE BASHAM: Yeah.

NATALIE DORMER: And I think that creative point is a really

NATALIE DORMER: great one to pick up on. It seems that the

NATALIE DORMER: feedback from the young people

NATALIE DORMER: seems to be that they would like more say

NATALIE DORMER: in how they are taught these

NATALIE DORMER: issues and these facts and advised, that has

NATALIE DORMER: more of an interactive element to it,

NATALIE DORMER: that can be a little bit more creative.

NATALIE DORMER: So maybe it feels...

NATALIE DORMER: Coming away from the script, so to speak, as Pete's

NATALIE DORMER: talking about. But also those scripts

NATALIE DORMER: that schools have for how to deliver SRE

NATALIE DORMER: vary widely, don't they?

NATALIE DORMER: And this is this is the beauty of the NSPCC

NATALIE DORMER: Talk Relationships course and the lesson

NATALIE DORMER: plans is it's really designed in the way

NATALIE DORMER: of leaning into helping a non-confident

NATALIE DORMER: teacher deliver this information in a way

NATALIE DORMER: that seems more approachable for the young

NATALIE DORMER: people. I mean, you guys have looked at the

NATALIE DORMER: course. How did you find it in comparison to

NATALIE DORMER: what you'd experienced before?

PETE BASHAM: I thought it was a really, really good course,

PETE BASHAM: and I'd recommend everyone do it because I

PETE BASHAM: think it's something that — we might come onto

PETE BASHAM: it later — but it's something that's not really

PETE BASHAM: in my [training]. I did my initial teacher

PETE BASHAM: training a few years back, and then I've also

PETE BASHAM: done what's called the early careers teachers

PETE BASHAM: framework, which is a couple of years of extra

PETE BASHAM: support and a slightly reduced timetable.

PETE BASHAM: But even through all of that, I haven't really

PETE BASHAM: had a huge amount of training.

PETE BASHAM: And so the tips and the advice in that

PETE BASHAM: course were really helpful in terms of managing

PETE BASHAM: a room, managing difficult conversations; how

PETE BASHAM: to prioritise safeguarding but

PETE BASHAM: also still allow conversations to happen.

PETE BASHAM: There was something called 'protective interrupting',

PETE BASHAM: which I really like — the idea of how to

PETE BASHAM: interrupt a student so that you're validating

PETE BASHAM: their point and you're appreciative of their

PETE BASHAM: contribution, however, you're actually

PETE BASHAM: protecting that student from giving away or

PETE BASHAM: exposing personal information about themselves,

PETE BASHAM: which could then become a further safeguarding

PETE BASHAM: issue. And it was just really nice, almost like

PETE BASHAM: a script, that you can use.

NATALIE DORMER: Tidbits like that, yeah.

PETE BASHAM: And things like that, that you just don't have

PETE BASHAM: time to do when you're training.

PETE BASHAM: And then you're sort of there with, like you

PETE BASHAM: say, a year 11 form who are very much

PETE BASHAM: in the thick of all of this, and they might

PETE BASHAM: come at you with all sorts of things.

PETE BASHAM: And so it's being aware of the legal

PETE BASHAM: requirements and obviously your own school's

PETE BASHAM: safeguarding policy, but then also being able

PETE BASHAM: to encourage conversation.

PETE BASHAM: Because actually that's one of the best ways

PETE BASHAM: that, you know, that sort of Socratic method

PETE BASHAM: that we use in the classroom, isn't often used

PETE BASHAM: in PSHE. And I think that's where it can be really helpful.

NATALIE DORMER: One of the great things I saw that the young

NATALIE DORMER: people were mentioning in their feedback was

NATALIE DORMER: they would like to encourage teachers to

NATALIE DORMER: split them more often into their friendship

NATALIE DORMER: groups, to talk in smaller groups about particular issues.

NATALIE DORMER: They feel safe, obviously, in their

NATALIE DORMER: friendship groups and therefore more likely

NATALIE DORMER: to explore or question things that they're

NATALIE DORMER: not sure about, or give opinion or share

NATALIE DORMER: experiences that might be troubling them.

NATALIE DORMER: And it's just something so simple as that,

NATALIE DORMER: right? It's actually a very simple thing to

NATALIE DORMER: do — break a class up into friendship groups

NATALIE DORMER: — and yet it would make a world of difference.

SARAH OAKES: And I think just the environmental space is so

SARAH OAKES: important for sharing.

SARAH OAKES: And it's much more efficient to teach a whole

SARAH OAKES: year group about something that you need to get

SARAH OAKES: ticked off, or you need to get covered — to

SARAH OAKES: just get everyone together, tell them the

SARAH OAKES: information, and then, you know, invite

SARAH OAKES: questions. But people aren't going to share if

SARAH OAKES: they don't feel safe and they don't feel like

SARAH OAKES: they've got their friends right behind them in

SARAH OAKES: that moment. So yeah, creating that

SARAH OAKES: environmental safety, I think is vital.

PETE BASHAM: Yeah. Because a student has to feel confident

PETE BASHAM: and safe in order to contribute in any class.

PETE BASHAM: You know, to put their hand up and answer a

PETE BASHAM: question is a big thing for a lot of students.

PETE BASHAM: And so, in a PSHE lesson or an RSE lesson, it

PETE BASHAM: is even more challenging for them;

PETE BASHAM: actually to talk in front of a whole year group

PETE BASHAM: or a whole class is almost impossible.

NATALIE DORMER: I mean we don't talk about these things as adults.

NATALIE DORMER: So why should it be any

NATALIE DORMER: easier for them with all the social pressures?

SARAH OAKES: A teenager doesn't want to ask a question about something personal.

SARAH OAKES: If they're unsure, you know, they'll get ribbed

SARAH OAKES: in the playground or, you know...

SARAH OAKES: They need to know that they can safely ask

SARAH OAKES: what they need to ask.

NATALIE DORMER: And that's where I think the lesson plans

NATALIE DORMER: and so forth that are available with the

NATALIE DORMER: NSPCC Talk Relationships — these

NATALIE DORMER: ideas about doing scenarios where you can

NATALIE DORMER: explore questions in depersonalised

NATALIE DORMER: or anonymous ways, you know, writing

NATALIE DORMER: questions and putting them in a jar and

NATALIE DORMER: reading them out. There's all these

NATALIE DORMER: hacks into how you can

NATALIE DORMER: get the subject matter to come from them.

NATALIE DORMER: Because, I mean, the thing that surprised me

NATALIE DORMER: the most was the amount

NATALIE DORMER: of feedback that was, you know, RSE

NATALIE DORMER: experience, sex and relationship experience,

NATALIE DORMER: often for the young people, it feels like

NATALIE DORMER: it's too little, too late.

NATALIE DORMER: And like you guys said, they've already

NATALIE DORMER: filled in the gaps with unreliable online sources.

NATALIE DORMER: So what I love about this NSPCC initiative

NATALIE DORMER: is that it's putting the focus back

NATALIE DORMER: on what the young people want to talk about,

NATALIE DORMER: making sure that we stay relevant to what's

NATALIE DORMER: happening in their lives.

SARAH OAKES: Exactly. The world is changing so much faster

SARAH OAKES: at the moment seemingly than it ever did when

SARAH OAKES: we were at their stage of life.

SARAH OAKES: And keeping on top of that, following their

SARAH OAKES: lead a little bit, I think is so important.

PETE BASHAM: In the report — the Sexuality

PETE BASHAM: Education Plus report — there was a

PETE BASHAM: quote from one of the students about how they

PETE BASHAM: didn't want to talk to their parents about any

PETE BASHAM: of this because the world that their parents

PETE BASHAM: grew up in and the problems that their parents

PETE BASHAM: had is not the world that the child currently

PETE BASHAM: lives in. And so they didn't see how they could be helpful.

NATALIE DORMER: Oh that's fascinating. So it's not even that

NATALIE DORMER: some are reticent because they're

NATALIE DORMER: embarrassed; it's literally they think their

NATALIE DORMER: parents experience is not relevant.

PETE BASHAM: Exactly. Yeah. Because if you think about the

PETE BASHAM: world we grew up in, it was very different.

PETE BASHAM: And the mobile phone obviously has a massive

PETE BASHAM: impact on that.

PETE BASHAM: But it's not just that. It's also computing,

PETE BASHAM: online gaming, all of the other social media

PETE BASHAM: and things like that.

PETE BASHAM: And I think what's good about the training was

PETE BASHAM: things like, say, taking an ABC approach —

PETE BASHAM: agree, build and challenge.

PETE BASHAM: And so when you're taking the subject matter

PETE BASHAM: for all the questions from your students, you

PETE BASHAM: can kind of... If they give you something

PETE BASHAM: that's a misconception, you can agree in terms

PETE BASHAM: of the subject, but you can then build on that concept.

PETE BASHAM: And so you sort of meet them where they are

PETE BASHAM: and then you don't leave them there. You take them

PETE BASHAM: to the relevant information or the correct

PETE BASHAM: information and then signpost to further

PETE BASHAM: information if they need it — all within,

PETE BASHAM: obviously, a safeguarding policy of the school.

PETE BASHAM: But I think having that concept of actually

PETE BASHAM: going to find them, almost, because if

PETE BASHAM: you just deliver a flat blanket piece of

PETE BASHAM: information to a teenager, they're going to totally switch off.

NATALIE DORMER: Yeah. They want lessons that are interactive,

NATALIE DORMER: that are discussion-based and that are

NATALIE DORMER: creative so that they can feel involved;

NATALIE DORMER: that they can feel in control of their

NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationship curriculum.

NATALIE DORMER: And I mean, the other thing I suppose we

NATALIE DORMER: didn't mention when we all introduced

NATALIE DORMER: ourselves is all three of us are parents.

NATALIE DORMER: And, you know, this is something that gives

NATALIE DORMER: parents literally sleepless nights as

NATALIE DORMER: well, thinking about these things.

NATALIE DORMER: So, I mean, I would urge parents listening

NATALIE DORMER: as well — who aren't teachers — to this

NATALIE DORMER: podcast to take an interest, a strong

NATALIE DORMER: interest in, you know, the resources that

NATALIE DORMER: are available with Talk Relationships by the

NATALIE DORMER: NSPCC as well. Because we get terrified

NATALIE DORMER: by what we hear in the news about the

NATALIE DORMER: sharing of nudes and the proportion of

NATALIE DORMER: children that have seen pornography by a

NATALIE DORMER: certain age, and it can be very easy

NATALIE DORMER: for you as a parent and a teacher, one

NATALIE DORMER: presumes, to go into sort of like panic mode

NATALIE DORMER: or firefighting mode.

NATALIE DORMER: It's us all taking a deep breath, I suppose.

SARAH OAKES: Well it is. And I think from my experience, I

SARAH OAKES: now have a teenager, which is one of the most

SARAH OAKES: horrifying stages of parenting, so far.

SARAH OAKES: And I can, you know, know all the things

SARAH OAKES: through my work and through my job.

SARAH OAKES: But applying that in, you know, in inverted

SARAH OAKES: commas, 'in real life' is quite

SARAH OAKES: a different experience. And, you know, he'll

SARAH OAKES: roll his eyes at me, obviously, because he's a

SARAH OAKES: teenager and that's what happens.

SARAH OAKES: But he knows I know the stuff and if I look

SARAH OAKES: like I'm about to start preaching an RSE lesson

SARAH OAKES: at him, then he'll sort of wander off.

SARAH OAKES: But it is an entirely different experience.

SARAH OAKES: So I think it's so important that parents, as

SARAH OAKES: well as the teachers delivering these lessons,

SARAH OAKES: are 100% on board with the things that we are

SARAH OAKES: saying in the classroom.

NATALIE DORMER: This is where it seems right for me just to

NATALIE DORMER: add in that the NSPCC does have a

NATALIE DORMER: whole lot of new parenting resources on

NATALIE DORMER: their main NSPCC website, which

NATALIE DORMER: guide parents in how to have conversations

NATALIE DORMER: with your children about healthy

NATALIE DORMER: relationships. So I know we're primarily

NATALIE DORMER: talking about formalised

NATALIE DORMER: education in schools today, but it's just a

NATALIE DORMER: shout out here to parents who want a helping

NATALIE DORMER: hand as well. That exists, folks, on the NSPCC website.

NATALIE DORMER: We've moved towards parents.

NATALIE DORMER: So what are some of the effective ways

NATALIE DORMER: to engage parents in sex and relationship

NATALIE DORMER: education, and what are the benefits?

NATALIE DORMER: I mean, they seem obvious, but please.

SARAH OAKES: Well, there are challenges. I mean, we write to

SARAH OAKES: our parents; we inform them of the curriculum,

SARAH OAKES: the topics that their child will be learning

SARAH OAKES: that year in their PSHE and RSE lessons.

SARAH OAKES: And they have an option to ask more questions,

SARAH OAKES: to see more detailed lesson content if they

SARAH OAKES: wish, and also, if they really want to,

SARAH OAKES: to withdraw their child from some of those

SARAH OAKES: lessons. And there are some earmarked

SARAH OAKES: topics that the children can be withdrawn from.

SARAH OAKES: And for me, there's a little

SARAH OAKES: bit of fear there, that some children,

SARAH OAKES: due to so many different reasons, won't be able to

SARAH OAKES: access some important information and some

SARAH OAKES: important learning opportunities as well.

SARAH OAKES: So I think the communication between school and parents is really vital.

SARAH OAKES: Getting them in to talk to them a little bit as well.

SARAH OAKES: And sometimes it is just a case of saying,

SARAH OAKES: 'it may not be everything you think

SARAH OAKES: it's going to be, it might not be as bad as you

SARAH OAKES: think, but these are the things we're going to

SARAH OAKES: say to your children'.

SARAH OAKES: And it's very difficult, I think, quite a lot

SARAH OAKES: of the time for them to say, 'well, I don't want

SARAH OAKES: you to say that to them', because there are

SARAH OAKES: incredibly important and good reasons to say those things.

NATALIE DORMER: Safeguarding reasons. SARAH OAKES: Absolutely.

SARAH OAKES: Talking about healthy relationships is the

SARAH OAKES: basis of all of it, and knowing what is and

SARAH OAKES: isn’t acceptable in your life.

PETE BASHAM: Yeah, I think there's obviously cultural and

PETE BASHAM: religious reasons why some parents might choose to opt out of it.

PETE BASHAM: And I think one of the — it actually came up on the course as well, which

PETE BASHAM: was really interesting — was around what to do

PETE BASHAM: in that situation. And like you were saying,

PETE BASHAM: whatever stage you're at, I think you've hit

PETE BASHAM: the nail on the head in bringing the parent in

PETE BASHAM: and making it more of a conversation and not

PETE BASHAM: too confrontational. Because I think that if a

PETE BASHAM: parent is in a position where they're already

PETE BASHAM: thinking about withdrawing a child from

PETE BASHAM: something that however many percent of their

PETE BASHAM: peers are going to be doing, they're already at

PETE BASHAM: a stage where they've thought about this.

PETE BASHAM: They're not going to do it light-heartedly.

PETE BASHAM: So I feel like it has to be then a conversation

PETE BASHAM: and maybe an education

PETE BASHAM: to the parent of what's actually included,

PETE BASHAM: because a lot of their fears may not be actually real.

PETE BASHAM: You know, we're not going to be telling

PETE BASHAM: students that they have to be this or they have to be that

PETE BASHAM: or they have to behave... As I say to my

PETE BASHAM: form, it's not my job to tell them necessarily

PETE BASHAM: what to think, it's to teach them how to think.

PETE BASHAM: And I think understanding— coming from a place

PETE BASHAM: of understanding of, well, because like you

PETE BASHAM: say, we're all parents and, you know, we

PETE BASHAM: want our child to be brought up the way we

PETE BASHAM: want our child to be brought up. And so when

PETE BASHAM: you hand over your child to a school, there's

PETE BASHAM: an awful lot of trust there.

PETE BASHAM: And so when there are points where there might

PETE BASHAM: be disagreement around that — and it's not

PETE BASHAM: necessarily the big cultural things or the

PETE BASHAM: religious things, but it could be on small things.

NATALIE DORMER: And it could be due to the parent's own past

NATALIE DORMER: and personal experiences.

NATALIE DORMER: It can be a very sensitive matter for

NATALIE DORMER: parents as well. PETE BASHAM: Yeah.

SARAH OAKES: But I think there are ways to have those conversations

SARAH OAKES: and maintain that level of trust as well, and

SARAH OAKES: just to make it clear for everybody.

SARAH OAKES: Some things can't be overcome, but I think it's

SARAH OAKES: always worth having those conversations when

SARAH OAKES: it's needed, so that these kids can get the best education.

NATALIE DORMER: At the end of the day, teachers and parents

NATALIE DORMER: alike have the same aim in safeguarding

NATALIE DORMER: children and preparing them so that the

NATALIE DORMER: young people have the skills themselves to protect themselves.

NATALIE DORMER: That's what we ultimately want.

NATALIE DORMER: Just before we move on, I feel like

NATALIE DORMER: returning to challenges: is time a factor?

NATALIE DORMER: When I talk to you two, both my friends,

NATALIE DORMER: I speak to you a lot.

NATALIE DORMER: There is so much that seems to be going on

NATALIE DORMER: and happening, so much that has to be

NATALIE DORMER: covered in school.

NATALIE DORMER: And it's like— SARAH OAKES: There's never enough time for anything! [laughter]

NATALIE DORMER: But seriously, do you think

NATALIE DORMER: this needs to be kicked up the priority ladder a

NATALIE DORMER: little bit more? Doesn't it?

NATALIE DORMER: Those in the decision-making positions

NATALIE DORMER: within schools, do we need to carve

NATALIE DORMER: out a little more time for this?

PETE BASHAM: I mean, you're in a leadership position,

PETE BASHAM: you can answer this one. I don't have to!

SARAH OAKES: I absolutely do think it needs to have a much

SARAH OAKES: more protected amount of time within

SARAH OAKES: the school week and in the context of

SARAH OAKES: absolutely everything else. But I think there

SARAH OAKES: are so many ways that aspects of it can filter

SARAH OAKES: into other parts of the curriculum that the

SARAH OAKES: children access. Due to the statutory aspect

SARAH OAKES: and the high level of importance that all of

SARAH OAKES: this has, it does need to be taken really

SARAH OAKES: seriously. And time— giving it that time and

SARAH OAKES: giving it the right people and the right

SARAH OAKES: training for the right people to deliver it

SARAH OAKES: is 100% important. It's vital.

NATALIE DORMER: And that's what the NSPCC want to do with

NATALIE DORMER: Talk Relationships. They want to help

NATALIE DORMER: schools make sex and relationship education

NATALIE DORMER: a priority across the whole school.

NATALIE DORMER: And it's embedding that healthy idea of

NATALIE DORMER: relationships for everyone on all levels of

NATALIE DORMER: the school community.

NATALIE DORMER: I mean you've basically stated that, you

NATALIE DORMER: know, it is that whole school approach —

NATALIE DORMER: which is what the NSPCC are trying to

NATALIE DORMER: lend a hand to — to give teachers

NATALIE DORMER: the confidence to think like that;

NATALIE DORMER: to be brave and be able to think like that.

SARAH OAKES: Absolutely. And we talk a lot in our school

SARAH OAKES: about character education. I know a lot of

SARAH OAKES: schools are basing so much of their pastoral

SARAH OAKES: work on building characters. You know, who are

SARAH OAKES: these people going to be in a few years' time?

SARAH OAKES: And there's so much brilliant overlap with that

SARAH OAKES: — and with the relationships education as well —

SARAH OAKES: that it should be so simple to

SARAH OAKES: slot loads of these things into the conversations

SARAH OAKES: and keep having those conversations.

NATALIE DORMER: Is there obvious things we're missing where

NATALIE DORMER: this can be supported in other subject areas?

PETE BASHAM: You can integrate so much of this into other

PETE BASHAM: curriculums. I mean obviously as a biology

PETE BASHAM: teacher, I teach the basics of sexual

PETE BASHAM: education from the physical point of view.

PETE BASHAM: But there's no reason why those lessons

PETE BASHAM: couldn't also include other things in them as

PETE BASHAM: well as they're being delivered.

PETE BASHAM: As they're learning about sex as a physical

PETE BASHAM: act, they could also be learning about what are

PETE BASHAM: the emotional impacts of this? Or how might

PETE BASHAM: someone feel if they discover they've got an

PETE BASHAM: STI? What might they do? I teach them these are

PETE BASHAM: the main STIs that you need to know to pass

PETE BASHAM: your exam, and these are the ways you prevent

PETE BASHAM: them, these are the contraceptives; but it's

PETE BASHAM: totally clinical. There's no point

PETE BASHAM: when they're learning that when there is a

PETE BASHAM: discussion around the actual real life scenario

PETE BASHAM: of what happens if you find out you're

PETE BASHAM: pregnant. The problem is that if it's left up

PETE BASHAM: to individual teachers, they may not deliver everything.

PETE BASHAM: And then there might be a worst case scenario

PETE BASHAM: that the students are then getting conflicting

PETE BASHAM: opinions from their standalone PSHE

PETE BASHAM: or RSE lesson, and then their biology teacher

PETE BASHAM: tells them something different. And then they think,

PETE BASHAM: 'oh, well, what do I do?

PETE BASHAM: Well, I won't listen to either of them'.

PETE BASHAM: Thinking about the whole school approach, I think it's

PETE BASHAM: also important to mention

PETE BASHAM: neurodiversity in the school as well, and the

PETE BASHAM: diversity generally in terms of special

PETE BASHAM: educational needs, because that can present

PETE BASHAM: different challenges to a teacher in the

PETE BASHAM: classroom generally, but then even more so for

PETE BASHAM: RSE education.

PETE BASHAM: And I think that there are particular

PETE BASHAM: challenges that can occur with those special

PETE BASHAM: needs that things like the Talk Relationships

PETE BASHAM: course are very good — and there are lesson

PETE BASHAM: plans there as well — to help with how to

PETE BASHAM: deliver that information in a way that's

PETE BASHAM: appropriate and is understandable.

NATALIE DORMER: I mean, it is about information isn't it?

NATALIE DORMER: It's about information for the young people

NATALIE DORMER: and it's also about information access for

NATALIE DORMER: the teachers, and for them not feeling alone

NATALIE DORMER: and drawing on resources that do exist.

NATALIE DORMER: Sarah and I, we had a reason to talk a few

NATALIE DORMER: weeks ago about the Report Remove service

NATALIE DORMER: that Childline have, in partnership with the

NATALIE DORMER: Internet Watch Foundation.

NATALIE DORMER: This amazing service with Report Remove

NATALIE DORMER: — that, anyone listening right now, children

NATALIE DORMER: under 18 will be able to find on the

NATALIE DORMER: Childline website, and adults and parents

NATALIE DORMER: will be able to find it

NATALIE DORMER: there or on the Internet Watch Foundation

NATALIE DORMER: website — where you can apply

NATALIE DORMER: to have unwanted sexualised videos

NATALIE DORMER: or images taken down off the internet.

NATALIE DORMER: There is a service that is provided that can

NATALIE DORMER: do that, and Childline have a very

NATALIE DORMER: informative step-by-step guide on their

NATALIE DORMER: website on how to do that.

NATALIE DORMER: It is urgent that form tutors

NATALIE DORMER: that are in this position of where a child

NATALIE DORMER: might come to them, that they know exactly

NATALIE DORMER: what is accessible to them, that they know

NATALIE DORMER: exactly where the help already exists

NATALIE DORMER: that they can lean on.

SARAH OAKES: Teachers need an armoury of links and

SARAH OAKES: signposts where they can send children for, you

SARAH OAKES: know, any possibility.

SARAH OAKES: And the NSPCC is a great place to start for all of those things.

SARAH OAKES: There might be a time where it's something that

SARAH OAKES: you just don't know the answer to, or you don't

SARAH OAKES: quite know the right way to say it.

SARAH OAKES: But knowing that there are places you can go

SARAH OAKES: for advice, or you can send the child to for

SARAH OAKES: advice, or other adults that they can go to is

SARAH OAKES: it's so important. You can't say nothing sometimes.

PETE BASHAM: Yeah. And I think as a fairly recently

PETE BASHAM: qualified teacher as well, one of the main

PETE BASHAM: things I do as a form tutor is rely heavily on

PETE BASHAM: my head of year. So I will, if I come across

PETE BASHAM: something which I don't know quite how to

PETE BASHAM: handle it, I will go to my head of year for

PETE BASHAM: anything pastoral; who's in charge of the whole

PETE BASHAM: year group. And they've got a lot more

PETE BASHAM: experience and they're able to normally

PETE BASHAM: signpost in the right direction as to whether

PETE BASHAM: something is... Is this a safeguarding issue or

PETE BASHAM: isn't it, for example; because I think in the

PETE BASHAM: early days you kind of thing everything's a

PETE BASHAM: safeguarding issue, you know, everything. And actually some things aren’t.

PETE BASHAM: But they are still very important and need to have a pathway.

PETE BASHAM: So having a clear understanding of what those

PETE BASHAM: pathways are like you were saying, Sarah, about the signposting.

PETE BASHAM: I think that's hugely important.

PETE BASHAM: And again, not to bang on about it, but the

PETE BASHAM: course has a lot of information on it as well,

PETE BASHAM: which is really good.

SARAH OAKES: I think you can get really overwhelmed with the

SARAH OAKES: responsibility sometimes of, you know,

SARAH OAKES: having these young people and shaping their

SARAH OAKES: lives. It is a huge responsibility,

SARAH OAKES: but it doesn't all rest on your shoulders. There are places to go,

SARAH OAKES: people to ask, things to read, courses to do.

NATALIE DORMER: I feel like we're naturally coming to a

NATALIE DORMER: conclusion now and coming to an end now, but

NATALIE DORMER: it feels like it's a constantly moving

NATALIE DORMER: thing. And as Sarah's already cited,

NATALIE DORMER: technology is constantly moving.

NATALIE DORMER: As parents and teachers, I think,

NATALIE DORMER: what I really found with the survey, is it's

NATALIE DORMER: this need to touch base and keep up to date

NATALIE DORMER: and in touch with what children want

NATALIE DORMER: and young people need and say and what's

NATALIE DORMER: relevant to them. And I think this is

NATALIE DORMER: where... I suppose what we're just saying

NATALIE DORMER: today is we are not making people eat their

NATALIE DORMER: greens here today in the podcast; what we

NATALIE DORMER: want to explain is the NSPCC is a

NATALIE DORMER: helping hand, has hours and hours

NATALIE DORMER: of information and man-hours of research and

NATALIE DORMER: resource that should be drawn upon.

NATALIE DORMER: And it's about engaging the young people to feel

NATALIE DORMER: emancipated and in control of what they

NATALIE DORMER: learn. And it's starting a dialogue, really, isn't it?

NATALIE DORMER: So to conclude, I just want to say a huge

NATALIE DORMER: thank you to Pete and Sarah for joining me today.

PETE BASHAM: Thanks very much.

SARAH OAKES: Thank you.

NATALIE DORMER: If you're looking for advice, support or

NATALIE DORMER: guidance that you can trust, you can visit

NATALIE DORMER: nspcc.org.uk/talkrelationships,

NATALIE DORMER: where you can find information on delivering

NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationships education in your

NATALIE DORMER: school. You can find links to all of the

NATALIE DORMER: other resources mentioned today in the podcast shownotes

NATALIE DORMER: And of course, as a Childline ambassador,

NATALIE DORMER: I'm going to give a shout out to the

NATALIE DORMER: Childline website, which has lots of great

NATALIE DORMER: help and information for young people about relationships.

NATALIE DORMER: They can talk to trained counsellors about

NATALIE DORMER: anything, so if you're a young person or a

NATALIE DORMER: child 18 or under, please call 0800 1111.

NATALIE DORMER: That's 0800 1111,

NATALIE DORMER: or you can chat online.

NATALIE DORMER: And if you ever have any concerns about a

NATALIE DORMER: child, please contact the NSPCC

NATALIE DORMER: Helpline on 0808 800 5000

NATALIE DORMER: or by emailing help@nspcc.org.uk.

NATALIE DORMER: Thank you for listening.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child

OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our

OUTRO: website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.