(00:00:00): Hi, I'm Zahn Valines, a writer and feminist activist, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:07): And I am so excited because I am here today with my guest, Desiree Stevens.

(00:00:12): Desiree, I'm so happy to have you.

(00:00:15): Thank you so much, Zahn.

(00:00:16): I really appreciate the opportunity to be centered here in this moment.

(00:00:21): So Desiree is awesome, but don't panic.

(00:00:23): Jeff will be back next week.

(00:00:25): We haven't stuffed him in a closet.

(00:00:27): He's he's fine.

(00:00:28): but I'm going to tell you a little bit about the amazing Desiree.

(00:00:31): Desiree B. Stevens is a trauma-informed educator, counselor, and community builder.

(00:00:37): As the founder of Makeshift Happen,

(00:00:39): a B Corporation,

(00:00:40): Desiree is dedicated to liberation through decolonization and whole self-healing.

(00:00:45): Her work focuses on teaching individuals and communities how to build intentional,

(00:00:49): intersectional spaces of true belonging,

(00:00:51): dismantling oppressive systems along the way.

(00:00:54): Through her Liberation Education newsletter and the Liberation Education Academy,

(00:00:59): Desiree offers invaluable resources and tools for holistic DEIA work,

(00:01:04): including upcoming continuing education units and corporate training.

(00:01:07): She covers so much and her work is so deep and academic,

(00:01:12): but also really accessible that it's just you will get so much knowledge just

(00:01:17): reading her.

(00:01:18): So I hope you'll subscribe.

(00:01:19): I hope you'll learn about her.

(00:01:20): I hope you'll follow her.

(00:01:22): So today we're going to be talking about effective activism in a world that wants to demoralize us all.

(00:01:29): I think most people listening to this podcast want to make the world a better place,

(00:01:34): but we've all felt the guilt of not doing enough or of doing the wrong thing or of

(00:01:39): needing to make money in a capitalist world or of needing to take a break for our well-being.

(00:01:43): We're haunted by all that we're not doing, and that slows down our ability to do good.

(00:01:48): As I've argued before, authoritarianism depends on the demoralization of activists.

(00:01:53): And unfortunately, in activist circles, other activists will often do their best to demoralize us.

(00:01:59): So Desiree has an antidote to this,

(00:02:02): and she takes this notion of demoralizing supporting authoritarianism seriously.

(00:02:08): She argues that this kind of demoralization works.

(00:02:10): this perfectionism, this rush to do it all is a construct of white supremacy.

(00:02:15): So let's get into it.

(00:02:17): One of the things that you often talk about is how activists from marginalized communities,

(00:02:20): and especially Black women,

(00:02:21): I mean,

(00:02:21): what we're really talking about here is Black women,

(00:02:24): have always been good at rest,

(00:02:26): at self-care,

(00:02:28): and seeking pleasure,

(00:02:29): even as they are putting their bodies on the line,

(00:02:32): even as they are at the vanguard of social movements.

(00:02:34): And I think

(00:02:36): You know, this is new to a lot of white women.

(00:02:39): It's new to a lot of more privileged people,

(00:02:41): the idea that you have to rest,

(00:02:43): that you have a moral obligation to rest.

(00:02:45): So can you talk a little bit about that?

(00:02:47): Absolutely.

(00:02:48): Rest is revolutionary and it is without a doubt one of the greatest tools that we

(00:02:54): could use to fight against supremacy.

(00:02:56): I think that what happens with white-bodied people who have now been socialized and

(00:03:01): clocked as white is there was this construct that was created through supremacy

(00:03:06): culture of what is supposed to look like,

(00:03:09): right?

(00:03:09): How you're supposed to dress,

(00:03:10): walk,

(00:03:11): talk,

(00:03:11): act,

(00:03:11): especially,

(00:03:12): as you said,

(00:03:13): as you get up in those privileges,

(00:03:14): right?

(00:03:15): All of this system is really a replication of the monarchy, right?

(00:03:18): Because Britain is the motherland to America, right?

(00:03:22): So, you know, it's this idea of this performance of whiteness.

(00:03:25): So I should always be on, always be presentable.

(00:03:28): And when you're talking about Black women,

(00:03:30): for me,

(00:03:31): I would say that in our own ways,

(00:03:34): from our own ancestral learning and knowledge,

(00:03:38): you have to think about how these systems treated us.

(00:03:39): See, we were property.

(00:03:41): So when we were finally able to leave Mass's house and go over to our little cabin, we

(00:03:47): We could just do us.

(00:03:49): We could just be in community with us.

(00:03:51): We could just take a moment.

(00:03:52): And even though there was still more labor,

(00:03:54): still more children to take care of,

(00:03:56): still more food to cook,

(00:03:57): we were amongst our own.

(00:03:59): We were in community, even if it was for those few hours.

(00:04:02): And you have to rest.

(00:04:04): You cannot go and just keep going.

(00:04:06): And in doing that rest, you reset, right?

(00:04:10): Because you got to get up again.

(00:04:11): You got to do it.

(00:04:12): You got to toil.

(00:04:13): So it's like...

(00:04:14): Where's my balance?

(00:04:15): You know what I'm saying?

(00:04:16): You will burn out.

(00:04:17): And that happens so often in activism.

(00:04:20): You completely burn out.

(00:04:21): And then because it's not impacting you directly,

(00:04:23): very specifically if you are not Black,

(00:04:25): so it's inescapable for us,

(00:04:28): you stop.

(00:04:29): Just that simple.

(00:04:30): You stop and it's just like, oh, it's too much for me.

(00:04:32): I've done all I can, et cetera, et cetera.

(00:04:36): So you talk about the performance of whiteness.

(00:04:37): And I think...

(00:04:39): This is a bit of a tangent at first blush from what we're talking about,

(00:04:43): but I actually think it's kind of core to this.

(00:04:46): One of the questions you're always asking people is, who were you before you were white?

(00:04:50): Yes.

(00:04:51): And this is,

(00:04:52): you know,

(00:04:52): this is such a great question,

(00:04:54): and I think a lot of people don't understand it at first,

(00:04:56): but you talk about Black people having a long and rich cultural tradition,

(00:05:01): whereas whiteness is just a long and rich tradition of oppression.

(00:05:05): Pretty much.

(00:05:06): Yeah.

(00:05:07): But it's made from other cultures that also have their own long and rich cultural traditions.

(00:05:11): So why do you feel like connecting to that,

(00:05:14): connecting to rather than your white identity,

(00:05:17): say your Irish identity or your Italian identity or whatever your identity is,

(00:05:22): is so important?

(00:05:23): Oh, because what I've learned is white body people think they're new.

(00:05:29): Every generation.

(00:05:31): And I'm just like.

(00:05:32): you know,

(00:05:33): when you're doing this work and you're talking to white people and it's like,

(00:05:35): they're talking to you.

(00:05:36): Like most people,

(00:05:37): most white people who are doing activism now,

(00:05:40): like where there was such a huge push for DEIA work,

(00:05:43): literally just figured out racism in 2020.

(00:05:48): That's amazing that you're getting $10,000 to speak and I'm hustling a newsletter.

(00:05:53): And you just figured this out four years ago.

(00:05:55): And isn't it amazing that these people who just now figured it out also think

(00:06:00): they're authorities and never pause and ask,

(00:06:03): what else have I not figured out that's so obvious?

(00:06:06): Right.

(00:06:06): That's whiteness, right?

(00:06:07): So for me,

(00:06:08): because I want it to be clear,

(00:06:09): because it could be really activating when you hear,

(00:06:11): right,

(00:06:11): like white people.

(00:06:13): Right.

(00:06:13): Well, I'm born white.

(00:06:14): Yeah, nobody could blame how they're born.

(00:06:16): Whiteness for me is a system that unfortunately, that system leverages your white skin.

(00:06:23): That's why I say white bodied people against me, because for me, white supremacy is inescapable.

(00:06:29): In my work, what I focus on is supremacy culture.

(00:06:32): Right.

(00:06:32): So that's going to be all of the supremacies.

(00:06:34): Right.

(00:06:34): There's going to be financial supremacy,

(00:06:37): cis supremacy,

(00:06:38): Christian supremacy,

(00:06:40): parental supremacy,

(00:06:42): all of those different things and how they interact and interconnect.

(00:06:46): So you could really begin to dismantle it.

(00:06:48): White supremacy is something that impacts me as a black person.

(00:06:51): And for me, it's inescapable.

(00:06:53): So to kind of go all the way back to there.

(00:06:57): Wait, what the hell is the question?

(00:07:01): Oh, who were you before you were white?

(00:07:02): Okay.

(00:07:03): So why is it important to connect to that?

(00:07:05): I am multicultural.

(00:07:07): My mother is a first generation Irish American.

(00:07:10): My grandparents came over from Sligo, Ireland, not even, you know, not 1600s, not on the Mayflower.

(00:07:18): They were like still considered the scourge of the Irish when they came over, right?

(00:07:22): And that is right there in and of itself a reason why you should know.

(00:07:27): Because this idea of privilege, not saying that it doesn't exist, but I prefer to interchange that.

(00:07:33): Well, not even interchange, but to completely change it to leverage.

(00:07:37): You could leverage your whiteness,

(00:07:39): but there's no real privilege in not knowing who you are,

(00:07:42): where you came from,

(00:07:43): what your people have gone through.

(00:07:45): See, if you were an Irish American and proper Irish, not a plastic patty, you...

(00:07:51): would be angry because you would know that you were called the scourge,

(00:07:57): though they were a part of the destruction of your land,

(00:08:01): though they have been colonizing Ireland for the past 900 years.

(00:08:05): And it is still colonized.

(00:08:07): And the Irish are still fighting for their sovereignty and their land back.

(00:08:11): Indigenous is a global term.

(00:08:12): Land back is a global movement.

(00:08:14): So connecting to that goes back to your initial thing on rest.

(00:08:19): If you were connected to that, you're not going to keep fighting because I'm Black.

(00:08:22): You're going to take a breath and say, whew, at least I'm not Black.

(00:08:27): But if you were connected to that struggle and understanding that and who you

(00:08:31): became and what it took from you,

(00:08:34): there would be a personal motivation that says,

(00:08:37): yes,

(00:08:37): I need a rest,

(00:08:38): but I'm going to keep pushing.

(00:08:40): Yeah, I like this idea of whiteness as taking not just

(00:08:43): from non-white people, but from everybody.

(00:08:45): And I'm always like a bit skeptical of the, well, you know, sexism hurts men too.

(00:08:52): Racism hurts white people too kind of stuff.

(00:08:54): Cause then we get into this like reverse victim thing.

(00:08:56): But I think that white people can benefit from considering that whiteness has taken from them too.

(00:09:02): And that this is a system that is harming all of us and get mad.

(00:09:07): They would greatly benefit.

(00:09:09): Yeah.

(00:09:09): Because when you're watching, like these elections are coming up and you know,

(00:09:13): Black people and the indigenous of Turtle Island are looking at y'all like, what?

(00:09:18): Like, we've been telling you, right?

(00:09:20): This is not new.

(00:09:21): When I look at white activists,

(00:09:25): advocates,

(00:09:25): you know,

(00:09:26): social justice people,

(00:09:27): or just white people having a voice,

(00:09:30): right?

(00:09:30): Like,

(00:09:30): we're in a time and age where all you need is a phone,

(00:09:32): and everybody has a platform,

(00:09:33): so you have to really be mindful of that.

(00:09:36): But when I'm listening to so many of you guys,

(00:09:40): like,

(00:09:40): speak about what's going on with the genocide of Palestine,

(00:09:43): I'm like,

(00:09:44): you...

(00:09:46): are actively practicing settler colonialism and not seeing that,

(00:09:52): not seeing that this is actually a land grab from a system of whiteness.

(00:09:56): This is Christian supremacy.

(00:09:59): It's easy to blame Jews.

(00:10:01): That's not new.

(00:10:02): Hating Jews is a very American and normalized concept.

(00:10:05): So it kind of all goes into that, and that's how that interconnectedness is.

(00:10:09): Because it is harmful to you.

(00:10:11): It is,

(00:10:11): because it leaves you without community,

(00:10:13): consistently performing,

(00:10:15): mental health issues,

(00:10:16): not knowing who you are,

(00:10:18): right?

(00:10:18): Like, this huge feminist movement.

(00:10:20): Like, you're probably, like, the only feminist person that I...

(00:10:23): Don't say that.

(00:10:24): Follow.

(00:10:26): I mean, it's, she's right.

(00:10:28): I'm honest because white feminism,

(00:10:30): unfortunately,

(00:10:32): is not going to free you guys from the patriarchy because you guys have been

(00:10:36): socialized around white men for so long.

(00:10:38): You are your men to everybody else.

(00:10:41): And so in my work,

(00:10:43): I don't exclude the damage and the violence that patriarchy has brought to white

(00:10:48): femme bodies.

(00:10:49): That is a very real thing.

(00:10:51): But then to take it to the next step is like, yes, you do need to dismantle that.

(00:10:55): But then to be connected to the struggle,

(00:10:58): then you have to recognize that to everyone else,

(00:11:00): the global majority,

(00:11:02): white women are their men.

(00:11:04): Yeah.

(00:11:04): So I've actually...

(00:11:06): I hadn't planned to talk about this, but I think this is.

(00:11:08): No, no, no, no.

(00:11:09): No, I had not planned to talk about what I'm about to talk about.

(00:11:12): You talk about whatever you want.

(00:11:15): So I see this phenomenon a lot with white women who I counsel who are in abusive

(00:11:21): relationships where they've gotten to the point where they have the resources to

(00:11:26): leave and they're considering leaving.

(00:11:27): And what's really keeping them there is love, which is really more like white supremacist patriarchy.

(00:11:33): And here's how it manifests.

(00:11:35): It'll look like this.

(00:11:36): She's in a relationship with a guy who's abusive to her and to her children, but who's also racist.

(00:11:42): And it's easy in feminist circles to sympathize with, like, well, she's being abused.

(00:11:48): But she is also cozying up to the racist.

(00:11:52): And I think we often overlook that part of it because we're so focused on the abuse

(00:11:56): that we're not thinking about the ways in which she is complicit with other

(00:12:00): people's abuse.

(00:12:01): And we see this in generation after generation after generation of women where we

(00:12:07): cozy up to white male power and we leave the black women who should actually be our

(00:12:11): sisters in the dust.

(00:12:14): And we say, oh, but the men are abusing us, too.

(00:12:16): So we're like you.

(00:12:17): And it's like, well…

(00:12:19): We're getting abused, but we're also being abusers.

(00:12:22): And this is why I think it's so important even for women who are being oppressed in

(00:12:26): other ways across myriad identities to see how they are cozying up to their

(00:12:31): partner's racism and how

(00:12:34): Racism is never something you can overlook in a relationship ever, ever.

(00:12:39): And it's not only racism that they're cozying up to, right?

(00:12:42): Like the holy trifecta is going to be anti-Semitism, anti-Blackness and homophobia.

(00:12:47): Yeah.

(00:12:47): You're not going to find one without the other.

(00:12:49): And all of these things.

(00:12:51): you're not going to find without abuse.

(00:12:53): This person is going to abuse you, your children, your communities, the people in your life.

(00:12:59): Someone who is abusive in one of these domains is always going to be abusive in the other domains.

(00:13:04): And this thing where we separate them all out, where you can have 10 racist points,

(00:13:09): But maybe you only have one sexist point and like, that's OK.

(00:13:12): That's not how it works.

(00:13:13): No, it's not.

(00:13:14): And unfortunately, so that it still goes.

(00:13:17): It all kind of coincides and overlaps.

(00:13:19): And for me, when I think about supremacy culture, I look at it like a spiderweb.

(00:13:25): right?

(00:13:25): Some of us are closer to the spider.

(00:13:27): There's no doubt about that, right?

(00:13:30): But we're all here.

(00:13:31): We're all stuck in this web.

(00:13:33): So when you're talking about it from this way, because again, I recognize it's very activating, right?

(00:13:37): Especially my own mother was an abuse victim, like serious DV and a white woman.

(00:13:42): So like, I'm very well aware.

(00:13:44): But when we're talking about it from the perspective of what you're saying, like,

(00:13:51): you guys are here as feminists fighting for certain things.

(00:13:55): And we should just embrace you guys without the awareness that your existence, it's not personal.

(00:14:02): Your existence, we're sitting here right now.

(00:14:05): I consider you a friend.

(00:14:06): You know, like my child has been in your home.

(00:14:08): I've collected beautiful flowers from you.

(00:14:11): But if you call the police right now, the problem is they're going to believe you.

(00:14:15): Right.

(00:14:16): And that is what white privilege is,

(00:14:19): is basically you get the benefit of the doubt while I live on a binary that

(00:14:24): believes the worst of me.

(00:14:25): Yeah.

(00:14:26): And how this destroys relationships.

(00:14:29): I think that a lot of white women are able to understand how sexism destroys their

(00:14:34): relationships because they are sleeping with their oppressor.

(00:14:37): And even if he's not actively oppressing you,

(00:14:39): we all know deep down that that switch can flip and that he can choose to.

(00:14:43): Right.

(00:14:44): And it's not even the way these systems are set up.

(00:14:46): Like for me, it's like because there is.

(00:14:50): You may want to cut this part out.

(00:14:53): White women hate white men.

(00:14:55): Like, and it is the misandry inside of it is disturbing to me because I just can't hate my father.

(00:15:03): I can't hate the son that came out of my body.

(00:15:06): I don't hate my brother.

(00:15:08): That is a very, that is a very twisted thing.

(00:15:13): The both of you guys have such a violent relationship with each other that we'd

(00:15:18): like y'all to just keep that in there and leave us out of it is really what it

(00:15:22): comes down to.

(00:15:23): And so when I kind of put that container,

(00:15:26): that energetic container around,

(00:15:28): let's talk about systems of whiteness,

(00:15:30): who you were before you were white.

(00:15:32): It's so I can keep you safe.

(00:15:34): there, me on the outside, safer, and help you dismantle it.

(00:15:39): Because basically,

(00:15:40): if we look at the United States as one big home,

(00:15:43): speaking of DV and taking it from personal to systemic,

(00:15:46): We are all in a domestic violence situation,

(00:15:50): and white men and women are our parents,

(00:15:52): and we are the children who are dealing with the abuse and you two fighting amongst

(00:15:57): each other.

(00:15:58): And that is what strips,

(00:16:00): that's what systems of whiteness strips you from white women and white families,

(00:16:04): because you can't leave,

(00:16:06): even with the money.

(00:16:07): I understand that.

(00:16:08): Even with the money, even with the resources, even with all that.

(00:16:11): Because whiteness excommunicates.

(00:16:14): It has no community.

(00:16:15): It pushes you out.

(00:16:16): You got booted from your church.

(00:16:18): Your kids can't go to the same school, even if you have money for that private school.

(00:16:22): Now you're the scourge, back to that word, right?

(00:16:24): You're the scourge of the community.

(00:16:26): You're going to be blamed for this.

(00:16:28): He's going to be held and coddled and enabled to continue to do this.

(00:16:32): And he's going to find another you.

(00:16:34): And now you're sitting there and there's nothing fun about poverty because now

(00:16:38): you're broke because he snatched back all of those resources that you had because

(00:16:43): white womanhood is about marrying up and white manhood is about ownership.

(00:16:49): Yes.

(00:16:50): It's about the woman appliance.

(00:16:51): And I want to say something about this because every time I share your work or

(00:16:56): really any black womanist sort of work.

(00:17:00): I'll eventually get a comment that's like, well, black men are abusive to black women too.

(00:17:06): Desiree is literally falling off of her chair having a seizure right now.

(00:17:10): And it's – I think what people don't understand is that,

(00:17:15): yes,

(00:17:15): women in all kinds of relationship dynamics can be abused.

(00:17:19): But the abuse inflicted on black women from –

(00:17:24): white women and and as an extension of white men's abuse is a different kind of

(00:17:29): abuse and when Desiree talks about white women hating white men you know I I see

(00:17:34): this all the time where we would rather just hate men than talk about the dynamics

(00:17:40): that turn men into monsters and like there's nothing wrong with deciding you hate

(00:17:44): men there's nothing wrong with deciding you want to avoid them there's nothing

(00:17:47): wrong with deciding like you don't want relationships with them

(00:17:50): You know,

(00:17:51): I think what Desiree is talking about is not seeing the interlocking systems and deciding,

(00:17:56): well,

(00:17:56): men are the monsters and if I avoid them,

(00:17:58): everything will be fine.

(00:17:59): But there are monsters everywhere in an oppressive system.

(00:18:03): And there's also a monster lurking within in an oppressive system that you have to confront.

(00:18:08): And so, yeah, like, hate men, divorce your husband, avoid them, stay safe, do whatever you need.

(00:18:14): But don't for one second think that just community with women is going to be easy

(00:18:20): and that you're not going to have to unpack anything in that.

(00:18:23): Well, community with women is not going to be easy because of everything that you just stated.

(00:18:28): It's the refusal to be accountable.

(00:18:30): Mm-hmm.

(00:18:31): Like, you can't fucking feed your oppressor and then wonder why you're being oppressed.

(00:18:36): There's no way in hell my son is going to oppress me.

(00:18:39): None.

(00:18:40): Do you understand?

(00:18:41): None.

(00:18:43): None.

(00:18:43): And, you know, it's again, these systems, right?

(00:18:47): Like, yes, Black women, we deal with tons of abuse, right?

(00:18:50): Because they're dealing with systemic abuse and it trickles down.

(00:18:53): The only trickle down that works is violence, right?

(00:18:55): Right.

(00:18:56): So white men are being abused and oppressed at their work and through capitalism or

(00:19:03): when you're talking about the other end of it,

(00:19:05): poverty,

(00:19:06): the inability to climb up that ladder.

(00:19:08): So he feels like less of a man because he can't provide.

(00:19:11): That's how systems of whiteness impact them.

(00:19:13): What's he going to do?

(00:19:14): Take that out on the person that's lesser than him.

(00:19:17): That's his wife.

(00:19:18): She's going to take that out on his on her kids.

(00:19:20): Then y'all come outside and take it out on the globe.

(00:19:23): So for me,

(00:19:25): like when I'm talking with white women or white people in general with this work,

(00:19:28): I ask white women to give white men the same grace we give y'all.

(00:19:35): Because it's wild that you want to sit in community with us,

(00:19:39): sit at our feet or sit beside us and feel some solidarity,

(00:19:44): but refuse to give that same grace at home,

(00:19:47): in your own house,

(00:19:48): when you are just as violent to me as he is to you,

(00:19:54): whether he wants to be or not.

(00:19:56): Your husband is an amazing person.

(00:19:58): He's still your oppressor.

(00:20:00): Systemic and personal are not the same.

(00:20:03): I think you're an amazing person.

(00:20:06): Systemic and personal, not the same.

(00:20:08): My mother was an amazing person.

(00:20:11): Systemic, personal, not the same.

(00:20:14): And we get that confused in DEIA work or anti-racism, right?

(00:20:18): But I'm a good person.

(00:20:20): But I do all of this work.

(00:20:21): My best friend's Black.

(00:20:22): My kids are Black.

(00:20:24): Love that one.

(00:20:25): I'm like, what?

(00:20:27): Tell them what you say about that.

(00:20:28): Black cock is not a ride out of racism.

(00:20:32): Because and I explain it.

(00:20:33): I use my mother as an example who happens to have been in a wheelchair.

(00:20:37): And I'm like, so we're in New York City.

(00:20:40): We're parked.

(00:20:41): Obviously, I'm from New York, the Bronx.

(00:20:44): We're parked.

(00:20:45): I'm trying to get my mother into a car.

(00:20:46): Right.

(00:20:47): She falls.

(00:20:49): I'm struggling to pick her up.

(00:20:51): When you see this happening, whether you want to admit it or not, your bias is going to come out.

(00:20:58): I'm harming this white woman.

(00:21:01): Truth of the matter is I have spinal stenosis.

(00:21:03): I'm struggling to get my own mother in the car who's now crying,

(00:21:07): upset,

(00:21:08): hates the fact that she is disabled,

(00:21:10): has to depend on her child who's also disabled,

(00:21:13): and here we are.

(00:21:14): Now add my father into this situation who is unambiguously black because now we got

(00:21:18): to talk about colorism.

(00:21:20): He's a six-foot Black man.

(00:21:23): You got a lot of thoughts going on.

(00:21:24): And none of them are good.

(00:21:26): Yeah.

(00:21:26): Right?

(00:21:27): None of them are good.

(00:21:28): Now, let's say something was being harmed.

(00:21:30): My mom was being harmed and I was a stranger.

(00:21:33): That just confirms your bias.

(00:21:35): But what happens is nobody's checking that initial bias.

(00:21:38): Nobody has ever looked at me and said, I bet her daughter...

(00:21:41): They've never thought I was their daughter.

(00:21:43): This is why having Black kids is not the answer to racism.

(00:21:47): And it's not about being a good person.

(00:21:49): It's about recognizing there are systems at play that have indoctrinated us all

(00:21:53): into a certain way of thinking and responding to those thoughts.

(00:21:58): Period.

(00:21:58): Just that simple.

(00:21:59): Once we can get there, we can move to the healing.

(00:22:02): We can kind of come into sister circles and say, hey, this is how you harm me.

(00:22:07): Like those people that like black men abuse black women, too.

(00:22:11): Sounds to me very right wing.

(00:22:14): Cops kill white people.

(00:22:15): And I'm like, cops aren't supposed to be fucking killing anybody.

(00:22:18): Like you guys are become OK and apathetic.

(00:22:24): with the violence as long as it's happening to yourself.

(00:22:29): And that's not healthy.

(00:22:32): And that's deeply concerning to me because I'm like, you just said cops kill your own people.

(00:22:40): And you're not concerned about that.

(00:22:43): So I fully do not expect white people to be invested in cops killing Black people

(00:22:47): because you don't care that they're killing your own.

(00:22:49): Right.

(00:22:49): Right.

(00:22:51): So, OK, so I want to there's there's so much here.

(00:22:53): There's so many threads I could I could pull on.

(00:22:56): This is this is what every conversation with Desiree is like.

(00:22:59): She's got this box full of information that she just dumps on you.

(00:23:03): And then you have to, like, swim through it and figure out which thing which I love.

(00:23:06): It's it's amazing.

(00:23:08): Again, please follow Desiree.

(00:23:09): She's brilliant.

(00:23:10): And you will become brilliant through osmosis.

(00:23:13): So I want to follow up really quickly on the thing you said about.

(00:23:17): giving men as much grace as Black women give white women.

(00:23:21): And I think that a lot of white women hear that.

(00:23:24): And what they hear is, oh, white women should let white men abuse them.

(00:23:27): White women shouldn't push back on white men.

(00:23:31): But it's not that.

(00:23:32): It's a thought exercise.

(00:23:34): It's asking us to consider how every relationship we enter into with a man is a risk to our lives.

(00:23:42): And we know that on some level.

(00:23:43): That's why when I say that you guys get like really excited because I'm

(00:23:47): articulating what we all know deep down.

(00:23:49): Well,

(00:23:49): Desiree is articulating what all Black women know deep down,

(00:23:53): which is that a white woman is a potential threat to your life.

(00:23:57): And,

(00:23:58): you know,

(00:23:59): all of my Black readers and listeners know this,

(00:24:02): but I'm not sure how many of my white ones do.

(00:24:04): And I think that that analogy between sexism and racism and understanding that threat is

(00:24:11): so critical for us to know,

(00:24:12): especially if we're going to be in meaningful community with Black women,

(00:24:16): which we should be because there's no excuse for not doing it.

(00:24:20): We have to understand that even if, you know, I love Desiree.

(00:24:23): I love Desiree's kids.

(00:24:25): You know, I would do anything for Desiree.

(00:24:27): But

(00:24:28): If that switch gets flipped, she knows I could hurt her.

(00:24:32): You know, she wants to believe it will never be flipped.

(00:24:36): But the very fact that it could be and that I could then use that to hurt her

(00:24:40): creates this like wall between us.

(00:24:43): And I didn't create that.

(00:24:45): You know, white supremacist capitalist patriarchy created it.

(00:24:49): Correct.

(00:24:49): And so we have we have a shared enemy.

(00:24:51): We need to work on that wall together rather than me saying, oh, but I'm so nice, Desiree.

(00:24:56): Yeah.

(00:24:57): I gave you those plants.

(00:24:59): I know lots of black people.

(00:25:02): I like them.

(00:25:04): Right.

(00:25:04): It's all of those things.

(00:25:05): Right.

(00:25:06): And yeah, I would never I really hope.

(00:25:09): And I recognize,

(00:25:10): again,

(00:25:10): I say this over and over again,

(00:25:11): when I'm talking to people,

(00:25:12): I'm like,

(00:25:12): listen,

(00:25:13): I'm going to say things that's going to activate you.

(00:25:15): I need you to drink water.

(00:25:16): I need you to move your body.

(00:25:17): I need you to take breaths.

(00:25:19): Because that defensiveness, right?

(00:25:21): The foundation of my work are the 15 pillars of supremacy culture.

(00:25:24): And that defensiveness comes up.

(00:25:26): I would never tell anybody to stay in an abusive situation.

(00:25:29): I myself, and I love my husband still today, but the alcoholism went too far.

(00:25:34): And I'm like, okay, I'm going to figure out how to do this with three kids alone.

(00:25:37): So I would never say that.

(00:25:39): However, in my own situation, I will tell you what grace looks like.

(00:25:45): I need you to stop.

(00:25:46): This is too much.

(00:25:48): You know what?

(00:25:48): Actually, maybe you don't have a drinking problem.

(00:25:51): But I am going to tell you,

(00:25:52): it's activating my own childhood trauma from watching my father have a drinking problem.

(00:25:57): So do you think you could do that for me?

(00:25:59): So giving all of these options, and I gave two years of those options.

(00:26:04): It wasn't like, here, fix this.

(00:26:06): I read White Fragility, you bastard, and you're racist.

(00:26:10): You better fix it.

(00:26:11): It is being willing to give that space for that person to see it for themselves,

(00:26:17): for that person to heal,

(00:26:18): for that person to fuck up and be able to fix it.

(00:26:21): There is a repair, a conflict repair cycle that happens in all relationships.

(00:26:27): And when I say give grace, it's that.

(00:26:29): You just figured it out.

(00:26:32): And it's nice that you figured it out, but let's talk about privilege.

(00:26:35): You've had time, book clubs, friends.

(00:26:40): Maybe, especially if you're privileged, you're sitting at home.

(00:26:42): Must be nice.

(00:26:44): But he's busting his ass.

(00:26:45): He's trying to survive capitalism, make sure you live the best in capitalism.

(00:26:49): He don't have time to learn that, okay?

(00:26:51): Because he's working.

(00:26:52): So I know that that sounds like...

(00:26:54): She's picking me and it's not.

(00:26:55): It's just recognizing the systemic issues that are keeping a disconnect between us.

(00:27:02): So when you get to come home, it's like, can we talk about something that I learned today?

(00:27:07): What are your thoughts on that?

(00:27:09): Those are ways of having grace and then really getting to know your partner because

(00:27:14): you may find out they like the way they think,

(00:27:18): they are stuck to their biases and you may want to get the hell out of there.

(00:27:22): Well,

(00:27:22): this is like really important because one thing that I see a lot with women,

(00:27:27): and this isn't just white women,

(00:27:28): this is all women in relationships with problematic men,

(00:27:31): which is almost all men.

(00:27:32): Yes.

(00:27:35): They don't want to confront things directly.

(00:27:37): They go in this like passive aggressive route.

(00:27:40): So it's like instead of saying,

(00:27:42): hey,

(00:27:42): you agree that you're going to take the trash out every Monday,

(00:27:45): they'll say something like,

(00:27:46): well,

(00:27:46): I see the trash is still sitting there again.

(00:27:48): That's so aggravating.

(00:27:49): And, you know, we all understand why people react that way.

(00:27:53): We all understand that women engage in passive aggression because they're afraid of

(00:27:56): being direct because men can be dangerous.

(00:27:59): But if you can't be direct with him, that's the first red flag.

(00:28:03): And being direct with him is the best way to get out

(00:28:06): who he really is, what he really thinks, and to draw out, as Desiree said, those biases.

(00:28:12): And so you sit down and you say, okay, maybe it's not your alcoholism.

(00:28:15): Maybe it's not your neurodivergence.

(00:28:17): What is it then?

(00:28:19): Right.

(00:28:19): And this is this is the approach that I'm constantly advocating for is whatever

(00:28:24): wall of excuses he puts up against you rather than like arguing with all of those

(00:28:29): excuses or debating,

(00:28:31): well,

(00:28:31): when do I call him an abuser?

(00:28:32): When do I call him a racist?

(00:28:34): Saying this is what I need.

(00:28:36): Can you give that to me?

(00:28:37): Are you going to give that to me?

(00:28:37): Yeah.

(00:28:38): You know, what can we do to get to that?

(00:28:41): And that's much more productive than all of this like

(00:28:44): therapy speak and like indirect and like playing games and treating men like loaded guns.

(00:28:49): So.

(00:28:49): I agree with that.

(00:28:50): And also I think that there's a freedom in that for you as a woman too, right?

(00:28:55): For me, the language I use with my partners, friends, children is we made an agreement.

(00:29:00): Yeah.

(00:29:01): For me, it's just that simple.

(00:29:02): Did you agree to take this trash out on Monday?

(00:29:06): When you don't honor your agreements, it makes me trust you a little less.

(00:29:10): Here's the problem though.

(00:29:11): Most women don't have agreements with their partners.

(00:29:13): Oh yeah.

(00:29:13): And that's

(00:29:14): And so they default to patriarchy.

(00:29:17): Most people are not taught that heterosexual relationships are typically just a vehicle for misogyny.

(00:29:24): And so they don't make these agreements in advance.

(00:29:26): And then they wake up 15 years later and they've gone to the default marriage, which is fucking terrible.

(00:29:31): It is.

(00:29:31): And so then they don't have the we had an agreement.

(00:29:34): And so they have to go backwards and they have to start with these like stupid ass

(00:29:37): fair play cards,

(00:29:38): which never work.

(00:29:40): Right.

(00:29:41): No, they don't.

(00:29:42): But this is exactly like why I really appreciate your work is because of how in-depth, right?

(00:29:49): Like it's not riddled with misandry the way I see a lot of feminist writers.

(00:29:54): I'm like, you're not dealing with the actual issues here.

(00:29:57): You're not pulling back the veil.

(00:29:59): You're not taking accountability, right?

(00:30:01): For you, for me, your work is done with grace, right?

(00:30:05): It is saying,

(00:30:05): yes,

(00:30:06): these people,

(00:30:07): patriarchy,

(00:30:08): and then those that subscribe to it are dangerous,

(00:30:11): but also how are you playing into that system?

(00:30:14): How can you empower yourself?

(00:30:16): And that is why I actually like and respect your work,

(00:30:19): because it comes more from an empowering place than a victim state.

(00:30:23): And not that there's a problem with being a victim.

(00:30:25): We're all victims of this violence and supremacy, but it's an empowering.

(00:30:30): Like, no, let me tell you how this is going to happen.

(00:30:33): Or here are these tips on how to do this.

(00:30:35): And for me, that's how our work kind of overlaps.

(00:30:38): Because everything you're saying about men, we feel about you guys as a unit.

(00:30:43): White women and white men are a unit.

(00:30:44): Because again, the who were you before you were white?

(00:30:47): You came from clans.

(00:30:49): You came from tribes.

(00:30:50): You had matriarchal, you know, vehicles and ways of having community and being in community with people.

(00:30:58): And patriarchy is a pyramid scheme where, you know, matriarchy is in a circle.

(00:31:04): And it's wild because you see all this white witch three template Canva things on

(00:31:08): how to be the divine feminine.

(00:31:10): Yeah.

(00:31:13): And I'm like, being a divine feminine is standing in my power, taking accountability.

(00:31:20): I mold the future.

(00:31:23): What I'm doing with my children,

(00:31:25): this work that I'm doing now,

(00:31:28): is for seven generations ahead to benefit from.

(00:31:31): So the refusal of taking accountability as a white woman who has been at the helm

(00:31:36): of their household,

(00:31:38): raising their own oppressors,

(00:31:42): is so disempowering that it hurts me, right?

(00:31:47): And having come from a white-bodied person,

(00:31:49): but who is very much Irish,

(00:31:51): there is a saying,

(00:31:52): there's no one stronger than an Irish man than an Irish woman.

(00:31:56): So because I came from a community of very strong Irish women who took zero shit from

(00:32:05): from men included,

(00:32:06): and would leave you in a New York minute if you tried to pull any of that

(00:32:12): patriarchal shit here.

(00:32:16): It hurts me.

(00:32:16): Like when I come to this work helping or trying to help white people because I'm like,

(00:32:22): oh,

(00:32:22): my God,

(00:32:23): you're missing out on so much.

(00:32:25): It was so beautiful having culture,

(00:32:29): having traditions,

(00:32:30): having community,

(00:32:32): shared stories,

(00:32:34): shared traditions,

(00:32:35): shared food.

(00:32:36): And you guys have emptiness.

(00:32:40): And that bothers me.

(00:32:42): Well,

(00:32:42): and especially for heterosexual or heterosexual presenting white women,

(00:32:46): what our culture ends up being because it's all that patriarchy feeds us all day

(00:32:51): every day is I'm nothing without a man.

(00:32:55): And I guarantee you,

(00:32:56): you will not find any woman who will actually articulate that,

(00:32:59): who will admit to believing that.

(00:33:02): But their behavior suggests otherwise.

(00:33:04): And in abusive and exploitative relationships,

(00:33:09): eventually they reach a point where you really can't leave.

(00:33:11): Or you can't leave without endangering your kids, your finances, your community, all of that.

(00:33:15): But there is a point early on.

(00:33:18): where you can and the point at that point what keeps people in these relationships

(00:33:23): is this idea that women have to be with men and that's misogyny but it's also a

(00:33:29): whole lot of white supremacy because wrapped up in white supremacy is this idea

(00:33:33): that white women need to be bound to men

(00:33:35): And judging of women who aren't with men, judging especially of black women who aren't with men.

(00:33:41): You know,

(00:33:41): we see this all the time when people are talking about single mothers,

(00:33:43): what they're actually talking about is black single mothers.

(00:33:45): And I'm like, but that's literally community.

(00:33:47): Yeah.

(00:33:48): Because, um, you may want to cut this out soon.

(00:33:51): I appreciate the warning.

(00:33:54): No problem.

(00:33:57): White women are wild.

(00:33:59): I see.

(00:34:01): There's a dissonance that happens that whiteness as a system creates and manifests

(00:34:08): in white women's bodies in this very wild way because of the refusal to dismantle

(00:34:15): supremacy culture,

(00:34:16): their own anti-Blackness,

(00:34:19): and just kind of bowl it over into,

(00:34:22): you know,

(00:34:22): whatever new trend is happening.

(00:34:26): The idea of looking at Black women and being like, shame, shame, shame.

(00:34:31): And the truth of the matter is, is because you're not actually in community with us.

(00:34:34): You know us.

(00:34:35): You're not in community with us.

(00:34:37): There is a difference.

(00:34:38): Your PTA is not a community.

(00:34:40): Your housing association is not a community.

(00:34:43): Your job ain't no community.

(00:34:45): You're not actually in community with Black women.

(00:34:47): But you mean my job isn't my family?

(00:34:49): No.

(00:34:49): They said we're family though, Desiree.

(00:34:51): They are exploiting you through capitalism.

(00:34:53): They want you to work for the pittance so you could believe we're connected.

(00:34:57): The PTA is in my family?

(00:34:58): No.

(00:34:59): It is more hierarchical structures to control tiny humans.

(00:35:04): And don't even get me started on HOAs.

(00:35:06): But...

(00:35:08): The truth of the matter is, is what you're witnessing is the divesting from patriarchy.

(00:35:13): When you see black single women, we're saying, fuck you.

(00:35:17): You think you could be white men.

(00:35:19): You think you're going to oppress me.

(00:35:20): And I'm going to show you better than I could tell you.

(00:35:23): And we leave.

(00:35:24): We leave.

(00:35:25): We take our kids.

(00:35:26): We take whatever social implications come along with that.

(00:35:29): And we find other women oppressed.

(00:35:32): Black women who are going through the same thing.

(00:35:36): And then we look at them and we admonish them.

(00:35:39): And then you know what we do?

(00:35:40): We go to the Black men who are actually doing the work of dismantling patriarchy.

(00:35:45): And we be like, you need to talk to them, folks.

(00:35:48): And what we're doing is, do you know how many Black women...

(00:35:51): have bought lands and are making single women communes,

(00:35:57): raising our children together,

(00:35:59): raising our children liberated,

(00:36:01): sovereign,

(00:36:02): free and outside of these systems as much as possible,

(00:36:06): a lot more than whiteness would like you to believe.

(00:36:09): They want to show you that same like 80s idea trope, right?

(00:36:13): The welfare queen, the ghetto baby mama, baby daddy drama.

(00:36:18): And yeah, that's happening everywhere.

(00:36:19): Go to your local projects or your local trailer.

(00:36:23): You're going to see the same dynamic because nothing breeds violence like poverty.

(00:36:29): That's a poverty issue, not a racial issue.

(00:36:32): If we're talking about Black single mothers,

(00:36:34): more Black single mothers are divesting from patriarchy,

(00:36:38): finding community within other Black women and other Black mothers.

(00:36:42): We also don't see all of that thing with the white womanhood.

(00:36:47): you're not less of a woman in Blackness if you don't have children.

(00:36:50): Because we value aunties.

(00:36:52): We value godmothers.

(00:36:54): We value the input of simply having women around in a very real matriarchal sense.

(00:37:01): We value our elders.

(00:37:03): We value communing together.

(00:37:06): And that needs to be dismantled inside of whiteness before you could even come into

(00:37:11): community with anybody else or with yourselves.

(00:37:14): Because you guys may start a commune,

(00:37:16): but y'all about to argue because somebody doesn't have the newest baby wrap or

(00:37:22): somebody doesn't have the coolest shoes.

(00:37:24): Whiteness as a system, the culture is consumerism.

(00:37:28): You see it.

(00:37:29): I've seen it in all the breastfeeding mom groups, the baby.

(00:37:32): How many baby wearing sashes do you need?

(00:37:34): How many?

(00:37:35): You need one good wrap to wrap one good baby.

(00:37:38): Maybe two.

(00:37:39): But you've turned it into a sport,

(00:37:41): which shames the mom who can't or shames the mom who could only do two.

(00:37:46): And so you could see how patriarchy and consumerism has manifested so deeply within

(00:37:51): the white woman body that it shows even amongst yourselves.

(00:37:57): So y'all are scary to be in community with,

(00:37:59): not because of what you could do to me,

(00:38:01): like to your other point.

(00:38:02): I watch what y'all do to y'all.

(00:38:04): And that's terrifying.

(00:38:06): So we had this experience when I was a kid.

(00:38:08): You don't even know about this.

(00:38:10): So my mom was like a radical before it became so trendy to see that.

(00:38:16): And but she also she went to church and,

(00:38:19): you know,

(00:38:20): our church every year would have the adopt a family for Christmas thing,

(00:38:24): which is like a nice thing,

(00:38:25): but also gets into like a very like white savior thing and kind of gets into like

(00:38:29): charity is consumerism and charity is like winning an award.

(00:38:32): So like we, of course, adopted a family.

(00:38:35): But because my mom just loved everybody and had like an ability to be in community

(00:38:40): with everybody,

(00:38:42): this woman and her family that we adopted became like one of her best friends like

(00:38:46): really quickly.

(00:38:47): And then before we knew it, they were moving in with us.

(00:38:50): And and and my mom said, you know, I just I can't have one of my best friends be living in.

(00:38:57): a condition that is so inferior to my own.

(00:39:00): And so they just like, they moved in with us.

(00:39:03): And it was like super weird for a while because we hadn't had,

(00:39:06): you know,

(00:39:06): a random Black family move in with us.

(00:39:09): Okay.

(00:39:11): And I remember the first Christmas that they were there,

(00:39:14): you know,

(00:39:14): my mom's doing all the shopping for everybody.

(00:39:17): And my brother was like,

(00:39:18): well,

(00:39:19): why are you buying as much for Stefan and Amanda as you are for Zahn and me?

(00:39:24): And she said, because there are family now, you little shit.

(00:39:27): Yeah, just that simple.

(00:39:28): And and I just like always and they live with us for like a while.

(00:39:33): And and and it was just a wonderful family community.

(00:39:36): And I would love when when Ingrid,

(00:39:38): their mother,

(00:39:39): would drop me off at school and I'd say,

(00:39:40): oh,

(00:39:40): that's my other mom.

(00:39:42): And all the kids at my Catholic school would be like, is this a lesbian situation?

(00:39:45): Like, what's going on here?

(00:39:47): Yeah.

(00:39:49): And it was it was just like such a great early lesson in what community looks like.

(00:39:54): But also the outside reaction to it showed me how we want to pretend like we're big

(00:40:00): into charity and we want to pretend like we're big into helping people.

(00:40:04): But we and I mean,

(00:40:05): white women who are invested in white supremacy really are not yet ready to say,

(00:40:10): I am going to give up as much as I can until I have brought you to my level.

(00:40:16): And that's what I think we need to be prepared to do to like really divest of white supremacy.

(00:40:20): And until we're doing that, like we're buying into the system.

(00:40:24): And that's just that's the way it is.

(00:40:27): It is.

(00:40:28): It is.

(00:40:29): And I think for me, the focus on my work is just about it is the healing aspect of it.

(00:40:34): We do all this cerebral stuff.

(00:40:36): Systems of whiteness demands us to think all the time and feel nothing.

(00:40:41): Yeah.

(00:40:42): I could think all the time and I could strategize.

(00:40:45): But are you dealing with the grief?

(00:40:47): Are you dealing with the trauma of the loss of your own culture?

(00:40:51): I often think about how we try to like argue kids out of their anxiety.

(00:40:55): Like we try to give them mantras and teach them about anxiety.

(00:40:58): There's something wrong with that.

(00:41:00): But then we don't give them any of the body stuff.

(00:41:03): We don't give them any of the emotion stuff.

(00:41:04): And then we're shocked that they just keep getting more and more anxious as the

(00:41:08): mantras and the arguments don't work.

(00:41:10): And we do like a similar kind of thing with

(00:41:12): white supremacy, I think.

(00:41:14): Desiree, do you know about women who run with the wolves?

(00:41:17): I do.

(00:41:18): Okay.

(00:41:18): I actually keep about five copies on hand and gift them to people.

(00:41:23): OK, so we can talk about this.

(00:41:24): So there's this wild thing that happened in the 90s because I think that's when it

(00:41:28): was first published,

(00:41:29): like 1994,

(00:41:30): 1995 ish.

(00:41:32): Readers, if you don't or listeners, if you haven't heard of this, we can't really do it justice.

(00:41:37): You got to Google it.

(00:41:38): It's like a whole thing.

(00:41:39): It's a must because it evolves.

(00:41:41): My mom gifted me the first one and I've literally just keep them like I gifted it

(00:41:45): to my sister,

(00:41:46): my friends,

(00:41:47): my kid.

(00:41:48): So, yeah.

(00:41:49): So all these women who were kind of like getting into this like new agey woo shit

(00:41:55): started reading this book because they just they just fell on it.

(00:41:58): You know, it's like part of the new agey woo transformation.

(00:42:01): OK, so they start reading it.

(00:42:04): And my mom was like the first in her friend group to read it.

(00:42:07): And then she, like you, starts gifting it to all of her friends.

(00:42:11): they all start leaving their husbands.

(00:42:13): And it's,

(00:42:14): yeah,

(00:42:14): if you are like a white woman who leaves women,

(00:42:17): who reads women who run with the wolves,

(00:42:19): there's like a 75% chance you're going to leave your husband within a year.

(00:42:24): Yeah, it's it's it's totally a real thing.

(00:42:27): And I think this is because it encourages women to reconnect to their original cultures,

(00:42:34): to reconnect to the idea of matriarchy and to connect to their power,

(00:42:38): not in the like bullshit polarity,

(00:42:41): feminine energy crap that we have now,

(00:42:44): but in a more meaningful way.

(00:42:54): in the best case are bland and white bread and in the more realistic case are in

(00:42:57): some way abusive they leave and it's it's such a it was so weird to me as a kid to

(00:43:03): watch that like well she's reading the book I'm gonna leave soon

(00:43:08): I love that.

(00:43:08): But now, like, I completely get it.

(00:43:10): And I think your framework for white supremacy really helps to add color and depth

(00:43:15): to why that might actually be happening and why it's not just,

(00:43:19): well,

(00:43:19): they're having midlife crises.

(00:43:20): Right.

(00:43:21): And thank you, because, wow, what an amazing person and body of work to be compared to.

(00:43:27): Yes, because you know what it is, is that.

(00:43:32): We have the power because I don't have that same feeling about men.

(00:43:36): And I recognize that that could be problematic.

(00:43:38): It makes me a potential danger to someone, right?

(00:43:41): Like, so I'm aware of that.

(00:43:42): But my thing is more so, like, I have the power.

(00:43:47): I can't change my husband.

(00:43:49): Can't change my father.

(00:43:50): That is the world they came up in.

(00:43:52): That is that.

(00:43:53): But I have this amazing privilege, right?

(00:43:56): Right.

(00:43:56): Like shift power to privilege to help guide my son into being the sort of man that I would hope to see.

(00:44:07): And I do that by parenting the child in front of me, not the mythical man he may become.

(00:44:13): Not the potential misogynist.

(00:44:14): Not seeing him that way.

(00:44:15): Right.

(00:44:16): Not seeing him as my oppressor.

(00:44:18): Right.

(00:44:19): Well,

(00:44:19): because I see this a lot with women who write to me wanting advice about their sons

(00:44:24): and they'll tell me something completely developmentally normal that their kid did.

(00:44:27): You know,

(00:44:27): he got mad and he started hitting the wall or he won't clean up after himself or he's,

(00:44:31): you know,

(00:44:32): he screamed at me and they're like,

(00:44:33): and this is just like what my husband does.

(00:44:35): And I'm worried that he's going to be a misogynist.

(00:44:37): And like, I get that worry.

(00:44:39): But I think that as soon as women start projecting future misogynist onto their son, they're

(00:44:44): rather than developmentally normal child behavior or not developmentally normal,

(00:44:48): but like needs intervention,

(00:44:50): you create a self-fulfilling prophecy because these are just kids.

(00:44:53): There is nothing innate to masculinity, to manhood, to maleness.

(00:44:59): that causes violence.

(00:45:00): It is socialization.

(00:45:02): Right.

(00:45:02): And then on top of that, there's resentment.

(00:45:04): Yeah.

(00:45:05): You resent this child, right?

(00:45:07): Like,

(00:45:07): you know,

(00:45:08): because if you are,

(00:45:09): unfortunately,

(00:45:10): in an abusive situation,

(00:45:11): nine times out of 10,

(00:45:12): you're not leaving because of that kid.

(00:45:13): Right.

(00:45:14): So now I have a little boy I'm raising who's an abuser.

(00:45:18): That's how you've projected that thought onto them.

(00:45:20): Yeah.

(00:45:21): You resent the child.

(00:45:22): You resent the man.

(00:45:24): And you're like in this horrible turmoil constantly in your own home, right?

(00:45:30): Where like with the woman who run with wolves or with like my own framework of it

(00:45:36): is the idea of empowering yourself.

(00:45:38): Like, first of all, these men,

(00:45:40): Similar to men who cannot give you an orgasm because apparently 78% of women who

(00:45:45): have sex with cis hetero men are not coming.

(00:45:49): Yeah.

(00:45:49): That alone would make me leave you.

(00:45:52): Yeah.

(00:45:53): Okay.

(00:45:54): Yeah, this is, I mean, yeah.

(00:45:56): They're not concerned about even your basic, both of you have a basic physiological need here.

(00:46:03): If 78% of you are not having orgasms, that should be enough to leave.

(00:46:09): So this podcast that you and I are doing is coming out right after Jeff's and my

(00:46:14): podcast about men and sex.

(00:46:16): I love that.

(00:46:16): So listeners have already been primed heavily with this data and with how men are just not okay.

(00:46:23): They're just not.

(00:46:24): No.

(00:46:25): So if you could just take that very basic need that both of us are having.

(00:46:29): So this is meant to be something that's reciprocal, right?

(00:46:32): So these,

(00:46:32): like,

(00:46:32): talking about your red flags or your early warnings,

(00:46:35): if you have sex with a dude and he is not concerned...

(00:46:39): with whether you came or enjoyed yourself, that should end the relationship right there.

(00:46:43): And you start weeding these people out of the gene pool.

(00:46:47): Also,

(00:46:47): I just want to add that we have a word for men who think vaginas,

(00:46:51): periods,

(00:46:53): childbirth,

(00:46:54): breastfeeding,

(00:46:55): all of that is gross.

(00:46:57): It's not heterosexual.

(00:46:58): It's not.

(00:46:59): Heterosexual men are not repulsed by women's bodies and normal bodily functions.

(00:47:05): No, they're not.

(00:47:06): And so when you're thinking about it from that, even at that very base level...

(00:47:12): it shows very little concern for who you are.

(00:47:15): Yeah.

(00:47:15): Right?

(00:47:16): So,

(00:47:16): similarly,

(00:47:17): like,

(00:47:17): right,

(00:47:18): like,

(00:47:18): I try to,

(00:47:18): like,

(00:47:18): show,

(00:47:19): like,

(00:47:19): those correlations when we're talking about DEIA work and why it's difficult to be

(00:47:24): in relationships sometimes with white women.

(00:47:27): Opposed to white men.

(00:47:28): Because you will find that.

(00:47:29): Because I get a lot of pushback.

(00:47:31): That's where white women, like, what?

(00:47:35): And I'm like, yeah, because here's what they don't do.

(00:47:38): If they don't like you, they won't befriend you.

(00:47:40): Yeah.

(00:47:41): So I already know if a white man is like he's not he can't use me for any social

(00:47:45): clout because I'm a woman.

(00:47:47): And you're not a fuckable object to him.

(00:47:48): I'm not necessarily fuckable because, yeah, they'll fuck us.

(00:47:51): They may not marry us.

(00:47:52): They'll fuck us.

(00:47:53): But like you, I have no social clout for him.

(00:47:56): Right.

(00:47:57): If he's in a relationship with me,

(00:47:59): it's going to bring him more opposition than the cute,

(00:48:03): blonde,

(00:48:04): blue eyed,

(00:48:04): thin white woman.

(00:48:06): So there's a lot of different,

(00:48:07): you know,

(00:48:08): dynamics that are happening there when you see friendships or dating relationships.

(00:48:13): Right.

(00:48:13): Yeah.

(00:48:14): Yeah.

(00:48:16): when you even see like white women with black men.

(00:48:18): Well, why are you guys so okay with that?

(00:48:19): Well, because white women's tears have literally killed black men.

(00:48:23): I mourn when I see that,

(00:48:24): even as a product of that,

(00:48:26): because I know at any given time,

(00:48:29): even if it's true,

(00:48:31): even if you are a white woman and being abused by a black man,

(00:48:35): Should it be a death penalty?

(00:48:36): I don't know.

(00:48:37): I'm not the person to do that.

(00:48:39): But it is that fear that comes up.

(00:48:41): So there are just like so many interconnections.

(00:48:44): That's what I want people to think about when it's like this episode is going to be a lot.

(00:48:48): And some people are not going to like me.

(00:48:49): They're definitely going to write about you.

(00:48:53): There's a lot of stuff I say that people don't like.

(00:48:56): But,

(00:48:56): you know,

(00:48:56): when you're thinking about all of those things and thinking about yourself and

(00:49:00): thinking about that divine feminine,

(00:49:02): because that's where this all came from,

(00:49:04): is it is empowering and your work is empowering women to step into that true

(00:49:09): matriarchal divine power,

(00:49:11): right?

(00:49:11): That rooted, that from head to root energy, planted feet and be like, no, absolutely not.

(00:49:20): I'm going to offer you this grace.

(00:49:23): You don't want it.

(00:49:24): You can go.

(00:49:26): No, that's not how we're running this household.

(00:49:28): Because you do run your households.

(00:49:30): You really do.

(00:49:31): Yes, he may be the earner if that is your dynamic, but you are rearing your children.

(00:49:37): No, that's not how this is going to go.

(00:49:39): And like, let's be honest that in, what do you think, 97% of households, that is the dynamic.

(00:49:44): The woman's rearing the children.

(00:49:45): You're rearing the children.

(00:49:47): So where we are today is 100% that's

(00:49:53): And that is a hard one to hear.

(00:49:55): So this is where I say drink water, move your body, get a journal.

(00:49:59): Because when white women hear that,

(00:50:01): they hear it from the lens of patriarchy,

(00:50:03): where white men blame white women all the time for all of their problems,

(00:50:07): right?

(00:50:08): But then you have to admit that there's some dysfunction there that needs to be

(00:50:10): worked out that I don't even want to get into on this podcast.

(00:50:14): All right.

(00:50:14): So I have a question for you about the white women and black women relationships.

(00:50:19): And this is something where I really don't know what's going on.

(00:50:21): So I'm asking you to teach me.

(00:50:23): OK, teach me about white women, because this is a question about white women.

(00:50:26): And I know that black women are keen observers of white women.

(00:50:29): So I have this dynamic that will happen a lot where I will post something to

(00:50:34): Facebook or to my sub stack that is something that affects both black women and

(00:50:39): white women.

(00:50:40): The thing that most readily comes to mind is maternal mortality.

(00:50:44): And, you know, that's one of my like big issues that I write about.

(00:50:46): And,

(00:50:47): you know,

(00:50:47): I'll post a long detailed thing about,

(00:50:48): you know,

(00:50:49): maternal mortality for all women is at a crisis point.

(00:50:52): And for black women,

(00:50:53): it's four to eight to 12 times worse,

(00:50:55): depending on,

(00:50:55): you know,

(00:50:56): which statistic you believe.

(00:50:57): So I'll post this and,

(00:50:59): you know,

(00:50:59): there'll be a part about racism and then we'll go back to the main issue and all of that.

(00:51:03): And then I will get always five to 10 white women who respond with a comment.

(00:51:08): And like, I bet you know what the comment is.

(00:51:11): The comment is, and for black women, it's so much worse.

(00:51:14): There's this weird like white women pseudo social justice dynamic where every time

(00:51:19): they see a white woman posting something,

(00:51:21): they add on this and for black women thing.

(00:51:24): Yes.

(00:51:25): What what is help me understand what's happening here and how I should respond to it.

(00:51:29): So this is you may want to cut this out.

(00:51:34): Like, am I wrong to think that's weird?

(00:51:36): No, because I do read your stuff, right?

(00:51:40): And I'm critical of anybody.

(00:51:41): I have no problem if somebody is my friend to call out like, no, you missed the mark there.

(00:51:47): So I see how inclusive you are, right?

(00:51:50): But I'm not looking for you to tell me I'm inclusive.

(00:51:52): I'm just trying to understand this.

(00:51:53): I know that.

(00:51:53): I know.

(00:51:54): But I see how inclusive you are, even when it's activating to me.

(00:51:58): Because even in my own head, I want to be like, well, let's talk about black women.

(00:52:01): But I recognize their audience is white women and bringing that awareness to white women.

(00:52:04): And that is important.

(00:52:06): And you are inclusive in your stats.

(00:52:08): The reason for those social justice warriors down there and their political

(00:52:12): correctness is because,

(00:52:13): again,

(00:52:14): Lack of community.

(00:52:15): Yes.

(00:52:16): You guys are identified by the things you do.

(00:52:21): There's no real community, right?

(00:52:23): So I'm a breastfeeding mom.

(00:52:24): I'm a hiking mom.

(00:52:25): I'm a social justice warrior mom.

(00:52:27): So now everywhere you see it and whiteness is cannibalistic.

(00:52:32): Yes.

(00:52:33): It eats its own.

(00:52:34): So instead of sitting down,

(00:52:36): listening to this really good and fully fleshed out,

(00:52:39): you know,

(00:52:40): you're not just spewing stuff.

(00:52:41): You come with like actual facts, you know, links to other things.

(00:52:45): It's deeply resourceful.

(00:52:47): It's easier to.

(00:52:48): Oh, I did my social justice warrior for the thing.

(00:52:50): Look at this white woman.

(00:52:52): She didn't even mention black women.

(00:52:53): You didn't even read.

(00:52:55): is what happened.

(00:52:55): And it's in a way to censor themselves, right?

(00:52:59): Because they're going to say,

(00:53:01): and also Black women,

(00:53:02): and Black women are going to come and they're going to clap for them because you

(00:53:06): also didn't read.

(00:53:08): Other social justice warrior women are going to come and come underneath there and

(00:53:11): say that five more times.

(00:53:13): And nothing's really happening.

(00:53:16): No real work is happening.

(00:53:16): It does feel like a distraction.

(00:53:18): It is.

(00:53:19): It's like, why?

(00:53:19): Okay, so...

(00:53:20): Okay, so yeah, it's disproportionately Black women.

(00:53:24): Everything is going to be disproportionate.

(00:53:25): That's how racism works.

(00:53:26): But what about the mortality?

(00:53:29): Okay, so we've all had our five comments about that.

(00:53:32): Can we go back to the mortality?

(00:53:34): No, because it's superficial, right?

(00:53:36): So they're not looking for solutions to it.

(00:53:38): They're talking about speaking points instead of, well, maybe we should be empowering more midwifery.

(00:53:45): maybe we should be getting more women into this field, right?

(00:53:49): Because midwifery, like, and then for me, everything comes down to racism.

(00:53:53): Oh, boy, you say midwifery on here.

(00:53:55): As I learned from my last podcast, you're going to see a bunch of heads explode.

(00:53:58): Oh, really?

(00:53:58): It is so triggering to so many people.

(00:54:00): Oh, I hate that for them.

(00:54:01): But back to racism.

(00:54:06): Male doctors took prominence when they realized that

(00:54:11): Black women were birthing babies.

(00:54:14): We were good to birth babies when it was in enslavement and when we were still property.

(00:54:20): But then it became profitable.

(00:54:22): But when it became a profitable market.

(00:54:25): Because everything comes down to capitalism and how to exploit that.

(00:54:29): So they pretty much made midwifery illegal.

(00:54:33): So white men can take over this profession.

(00:54:37): And now we're here with these low maternal,

(00:54:40): these high maternal rates and all of these other issues because it is now been for

(00:54:46): profit opposed to for the care of the birthing person.

(00:54:49): All right.

(00:54:50): So I think this is maybe related.

(00:54:54): To the thing where white women, you're allowed to eat.

(00:54:56): Oh, I was scared.

(00:54:58): We both got chips and she's worried about somehow destroying the podcast with her chip punching.

(00:55:02): I don't know.

(00:55:03): So I just want to warn people.

(00:55:05): We are both actually human.

(00:55:06): We both actually eat.

(00:55:07): I know it may be upsetting.

(00:55:08): This is true.

(00:55:09): Yeah.

(00:55:10): OK.

(00:55:11): I lost my train of thought.

(00:55:12): Oh, one thing I wanted to say, just like in the interest of like disclosure.

(00:55:16): So my audience, when I look at my demographics, is about 25 percent black.

(00:55:20): And we can interpret that data in a lot of ways.

(00:55:23): We can say that's really bad because I live in Atlanta, which is like 50 percent black.

(00:55:27): We can say that's really good because I live in the United States, which is like 13 percent black.

(00:55:30): You know,

(00:55:31): I don't really know what to make of that data,

(00:55:32): but that's it's been about consistently 25 percent black basically since I started

(00:55:37): doing that.

(00:55:38): doing this so you know if you're a black listener like you're not alone like you're

(00:55:41): not listening to like the white woman podcast but you're also not the majority so i

(00:55:45): just want people to know kind of that's that's where the numbers are right um one

(00:55:49): thing i've been dying to talk to you about is this concept of like the issue of the

(00:55:54): day let me give you an example all right so last week

(00:55:59): And by the time you guys hear this, it won't be last week.

(00:56:01): It'll be like two months ago.

(00:56:03): So recently I released a podcast on the nightmare of childbirth and a racist,

(00:56:08): sexist,

(00:56:08): capitalist patriarchy.

(00:56:10): And it was really touching to see how this affected people.

(00:56:15): But also there's an outpouring of anger.

(00:56:18): And then something super weird began to happen.

(00:56:21): All of a sudden, the week that I released this was the week that people suddenly discovered Project 2025.

(00:56:25): Oh, dear God.

(00:56:26): Yeah.

(00:56:27): So a bunch of male social justice warriors started coming onto my post.

(00:56:32): I assume because they saw it had a large audience and wanted to increase their own audience.

(00:56:37): and started talking about Project 2025.

(00:56:39): And it was always structured something like this.

(00:56:42): What you really need to be talking about is Project 2025,

(00:56:47): because if you don't address that,

(00:56:48): none of this will matter.

(00:56:50): And then inevitably, you know, they would become so sexist and often so racist to women in the comments.

(00:56:57): It's just appalling.

(00:56:58): And so we saw that.

(00:57:00): And then a couple of months ago, I saw the same thing with Palestine and Gaza.

(00:57:04): And I've talked a lot about Palestine and Gaza.

(00:57:06): But people started coming onto my page and saying none of this matters when there's genocide in Gaza.

(00:57:10): And you should be talking about that 24-7.

(00:57:13): And there's this kind of like issue of the day where we'll focus for about a month on a single issue.

(00:57:18): And focusing seems to be just talking about it,

(00:57:21): just yelling about it,

(00:57:22): just doom scrolling,

(00:57:23): not volunteering,

(00:57:24): not donating money,

(00:57:26): not doing the long,

(00:57:27): hard work.

(00:57:28): that the right has been doing, by the way.

(00:57:30): Yes.

(00:57:30): Just suddenly deciding this is the thing everybody has to talk about.

(00:57:35): Now,

(00:57:35): from my perspective,

(00:57:38): this is really harmful to social justice movements because what it does is it robs

(00:57:43): expertise from movements.

(00:57:45): So if you're an expert on maternal mortality and people start saying you need to

(00:57:48): talk about Project 2025 and nothing else.

(00:57:51): You either do that and comply,

(00:57:53): in which case your expertise is taken away from maternal mortality,

(00:57:56): or you don't and you get in trouble with the people who are focusing on the issue

(00:58:00): of the day.

(00:58:02): I've seen cycles and cycles and cycles of this in social justice movements,

(00:58:05): and I've been thinking about it a lot lately because it seems like this cycle of

(00:58:08): outrage is like accelerating.

(00:58:10): Like we only have like two months of Gaza instead of like two years.

(00:58:15): This feels to me like what you talk about with a sense of urgency and perfectionism.

(00:58:20): with white supremacy culture.

(00:58:22): What do you think of this?

(00:58:23): Like, what's going on?

(00:58:25): You named it, right?

(00:58:26): Like, those pillars of supremacy are really real because, speaking of...

(00:58:34): When you said, like, the right has been working on this, right?

(00:58:37): Because I don't... For me, it's not just right and left, right?

(00:58:40): Because I go pyramid scheme, okay?

(00:58:43): So... And I do, like, three tiers of this pyramid scheme.

(00:58:47): And at the top is the ruling class, because it's been modeled, again, after the monarchy.

(00:58:52): So, you know, right, left, same bird for me.

(00:58:55): Like...

(00:58:58): They knew there was no way in hell Biden is going to go against Trump and actually win.

(00:59:03): You knew that four years ago.

(00:59:05): You should have put forth a better Democratic person.

(00:59:08): And not doing so means you weren't listening to the majority of people anyway.

(00:59:13): So you get those same things, right?

(00:59:15): Like as in this is your expertise, right?

(00:59:18): Feminism, maternal situations, birth rates, etc.,

(00:59:23): Mine is supremacy culture.

(00:59:24): And I get people all the time like, you need to talk about, you know, Palestine and Gaza.

(00:59:29): And I'm like, you want me to talk about it like it's a fucking football team.

(00:59:33): Like I'm pro-Palestine, anti-Israel.

(00:59:38): And you're superimposing race ideas from America over to the Middle East.

(00:59:46): That's what it is, isn't it?

(00:59:47): It's turning it into a sport.

(00:59:48): It is because you're turning it into a sport and you're putting what you just

(00:59:51): figured out four fucking years ago about racism on people that have been going

(00:59:57): through these things for thousands of years.

(00:59:59): So I have also written extensively about this on my sub-sack.

(01:00:03): I've written about conditional whiteness on white Jewish people,

(01:00:07): how white Jewish people have been exploited by white supremacy,

(01:00:11): how we don't understand what it is to be Jewish and we only have...

(01:00:15): information from white supremacy.

(01:00:18): I've explained how this is really a Christian Zionism issue because that is my expertise.

(01:00:24): You want me, like you said, to rob the movement

(01:00:29): of people who really understand the things that are going on there in a much more

(01:00:33): intricate and intimate level than to speak on what I know.

(01:00:38): And we don't give space for all of the voices.

(01:00:42): So similar,

(01:00:43): going back to that right idea or my pyramid,

(01:00:46): that top ruling class,

(01:00:47): there is a war room,

(01:00:48): okay?

(01:00:50): If anybody's ever been in the military, have a military spouse, played D&D, anything, there's a war room.

(01:00:59): And in a war room, you need more thoughts than one.

(01:01:04): You need, I need to know about maternal race.

(01:01:07): I need to know about Christian Zionism.

(01:01:10): I need to know about cultural history.

(01:01:12): I need to understand what it is to actually be this, that, and the other thing.

(01:01:17): And I need all voices at a round table so we can have real strategies to dismantle oppressive systems.

(01:01:26): If everybody is talking about Palestine and Gaza from the perspective that the

(01:01:33): ruling class wants us to,

(01:01:35): it is no mistake that it is given to us as teams,

(01:01:39): as pro-Palestine,

(01:01:41): anti-Israel.

(01:01:42): And I will name it, it is 100% a genocide.

(01:01:46): This is not me denying that.

(01:01:47): Oh, yeah.

(01:01:48): To be clear, we are 100%.

(01:01:50): This is a genocide.

(01:01:52): It's appalling.

(01:01:52): You know, both Desiree and I are donating money and doing all of that, but

(01:01:58): But for me, I want to get to the root of it because that's my expertise.

(01:02:02): And it's not to say that somebody else's vision, version, or information is false.

(01:02:08): It is just more information in the war room.

(01:02:11): For me, it is a land clearing.

(01:02:14): Because again,

(01:02:15): when I'm talking to white people,

(01:02:16): I'm like,

(01:02:17): focus on you and how you perpetuate these systems,

(01:02:21): right?

(01:02:22): You are literally, if we're going to do pro and anti, you are Israel, white people of America.

(01:02:33): You came over to this land,

(01:02:36): and even if it's not you,

(01:02:37): because back to the beginning,

(01:02:39): white people think they're new every generation.

(01:02:41): The people of Palestine,

(01:02:44): from the perspective of pro and anti,

(01:02:47): the people of Palestine,

(01:02:48): 10 generations from now,

(01:02:51): We'll always blame the Israelis.

(01:02:54): How do you think the indigenous of Turtle Island feel?

(01:02:57): I don't care that you're 10 generations away.

(01:02:59): You then were Israel.

(01:03:02): You were then the conquering power.

(01:03:04): You cleared the land with disease and violence.

(01:03:07): And you are practicing settler colonialism here.

(01:03:10): But you want to not do the work...

(01:03:13): And you want to take and superimpose what you just learned four years ago over to

(01:03:18): somewhere else instead of dealing with the root cause of supremacy culture.

(01:03:23): This is a land clearing.

(01:03:25): This is Christian Zionism.

(01:03:26): America is a business.

(01:03:28): It is a business that is a Christian nation.

(01:03:31): That Christian nation has an investment in the Holy Land of Israel.

(01:03:35): It'll be the Palestinians.

(01:03:36): It will be the Muslims.

(01:03:38): It will be the Jews next because the Christian Zionists believe that they,

(01:03:43): are the new chosen people and as your great white hope Biden said if there wasn't

(01:03:48): an Israel we would create it so for me that's the problem is the refusal to deal

(01:03:54): with how do you as white Americans who oppress the globe dismantle it instead of

(01:04:05): worrying about those small things give your money have your talking points do the

(01:04:09): fucking work at home

(01:04:11): I mean,

(01:04:11): this is the thing that I go back to with people over and over again who say,

(01:04:14): you know,

(01:04:14): I don't know what to do.

(01:04:15): There's so much harm in the world.

(01:04:16): Everything's so awful.

(01:04:18): Do what you can.

(01:04:19): Do what you're good at.

(01:04:20): You know, I've cared about Palestine since I was a child and learned about this issue.

(01:04:26): But the truth is,

(01:04:28): I'm not an expert.

(01:04:29): I have very little power.

(01:04:31): I don't have a lot I can contribute other than my platform and my money.

(01:04:35): And I do that.

(01:04:36): But there are other areas where I can actually make a meaningful difference.

(01:04:39): And so those are the ones where I choose to bring my talents and skills.

(01:04:43): And I think a good rule for people to use is that whenever someone is saying,

(01:04:48): how can you care about blank when blank is happening?

(01:04:52): They're abandoning intersectionality.

(01:04:54): How can you care about household labor inequality when voting rights are being dismantled?

(01:04:59): How can you care about microaggressions when there's a genocide?

(01:05:04): Well, these things are all connected.

(01:05:06): And they all lead up to.

(01:05:08): Right.

(01:05:08): Like that interconnection is necessary.

(01:05:11): Also,

(01:05:12): it is very much it's an indictment on the American educational system that people

(01:05:17): cannot walk and chew gum.

(01:05:20): It's an indoctrination.

(01:05:21): Like you should have these critical intersectional conversations because one thing

(01:05:26): always impacts another.

(01:05:28): Right.

(01:05:29): So microaggression is.

(01:05:31): is going to impact larger racism or larger sexism or larger classism, all of the isms.

(01:05:40): These smaller things lead up to them, right?

(01:05:43): And what we think we're dismissing or sweeping underneath the rug

(01:05:46): is why we cannot keep dismantling.

(01:05:49): So, like, in the situation with Palestine, I tell people, you're not going to stop this.

(01:05:55): I hope you know that.

(01:05:56): Like, there's nothing that we could do to stop this, right?

(01:06:00): And then people feel so hopeless.

(01:06:02): Like, oh, God, what are we going to do?

(01:06:04): You focus on the solution.

(01:06:06): How are we supporting the survivors of this genocide?

(01:06:09): What are we going to do to help them rebuild?

(01:06:12): What are we going to do to dismantle supremacy culture that got us to thinking this was OK?

(01:06:19): Yeah.

(01:06:20): Yeah.

(01:06:21): Those are the actionable steps.

(01:06:24): It's the aftermath because, again, everybody thinks they're a new generation.

(01:06:29): And generations from now, these people will still be impacted.

(01:06:33): What work are you doing?

(01:06:35): What healing work?

(01:06:36): What activism work?

(01:06:37): What self-work are you doing to make sure that we see them and that when they come here,

(01:06:43): they're not treated like dirty brown refugees?

(01:06:46): You know,

(01:06:47): while you were saying this,

(01:06:47): I thought about my oldest daughter has gotten really interested in refugees and how

(01:06:52): she can help them.

(01:06:53): And, you know, she's got all kinds of big ideas like you would expect, you know, a young child to have.

(01:06:58): And we were driving the other day through an encampment of unhoused people that

(01:07:03): we've all seen because we're just destroying lives here.

(01:07:07): And she said, do you think any of them are refugees?

(01:07:11): Yes.

(01:07:13): And and it's like, yeah, probably or their parents.

(01:07:17): But it was just such an astute observation and such a profound example of a very

(01:07:22): young child actually understanding what intersectionality means.

(01:07:26): Like, here's this thing I'm learning about.

(01:07:28): It seems like it's happening over there, but it's actually coming here.

(01:07:32): And here are the people in front of me that I could actually do something about

(01:07:37): rather than just like doom scrolling and looking at horrific images that just

(01:07:41): demoralize you and make you less effective.

(01:07:44): Yeah.

(01:07:44): Just.

(01:07:46): Yeah.

(01:07:46): No.

(01:07:47): Wow.

(01:07:47): That.

(01:07:48): Yes.

(01:07:48): Because yes.

(01:07:49): And if we, you know, that can go into childism again, like all of these supremacy cultures, right?

(01:07:54): Usually what we do is we hush them, right?

(01:07:56): Yeah.

(01:07:57): Yeah.

(01:07:58): Or, you know, my kids would be like, is he homeless?

(01:08:02): Why he ain't got no car?

(01:08:03): And I'm like, oh, Jesus.

(01:08:07): Well, you know, this is why.

(01:08:08): I'm just trying to drive.

(01:08:09): I just want to, you know, or we're walking somewhere.

(01:08:12): Does he have a house?

(01:08:13): No, most likely not.

(01:08:15): Can I give him my lunch?

(01:08:16): Yes.

(01:08:17): Instead of trying to shut them down, right?

(01:08:18): Like, oh, that's rude because we have this idea of polite behavior.

(01:08:22): That unhoused person knows they're unhoused, fam.

(01:08:24): I don't know what to tell you.

(01:08:27): It's okay that your child knows that as well, right?

(01:08:29): And then you get to solutions, right?

(01:08:32): Like me and my kids,

(01:08:33): for years,

(01:08:33): since my first child,

(01:08:35): on Sunday we would go and we made up our own little thing from our table to yours.

(01:08:40): And we'd get maybe like 20 of those to-go things, make some food and go to an encampment.

(01:08:44): I love that.

(01:08:45): And that's just it.

(01:08:46): It's just that simple.

(01:08:47): And that is how you do it, right?

(01:08:49): But for those who are like, you know, how are you talking about maternal rates but not Gaza?

(01:08:54): How are you not worried about the rocks underneath bridges?

(01:08:58): Like, why?

(01:08:58): Yeah.

(01:08:59): Not seeing how colonization plays into that.

(01:09:03): Like, we're actually literally supposed to be living like that.

(01:09:06): Free, sovereign, off the land.

(01:09:10): Like,

(01:09:11): you know,

(01:09:12): in homes that actually work with the world that we live in,

(01:09:18): with the land and indigenous style housing.

(01:09:20): And you guys are willing to let the government pay billions of dollars for unhoused

(01:09:25): people to become more unhoused.

(01:09:28): Focus on that.

(01:09:30): My thing is this, think globally, act locally.

(01:09:33): So you could look at Palestine,

(01:09:35): you could look at Gaza,

(01:09:36): you could look at the Congo,

(01:09:37): you could look at all that.

(01:09:39): And then how the hell is that being perpetrated right here in my own five mile radius?

(01:09:46): Because it is.

(01:09:47): Correct.

(01:09:48): Because it's a system.

(01:09:50): So when we get out of the personal feelings of I'm a good person or that's a bad

(01:09:54): person or he's a racist and I'm not a racist,

(01:09:57): we don't quantify racism.

(01:09:59): It's wild to me when white people do this.

(01:10:02): wild.

(01:10:03): I love this because this is like wild and violent and disgusting and angering,

(01:10:11): right,

(01:10:11): with the Trump Biden.

(01:10:12): But Trump is a racist and Biden is a what?

(01:10:17): Yeah.

(01:10:17): He has 50 years of racist policies.

(01:10:19): There are more Black families tore up behind his policies than most.

(01:10:27): Yeah.

(01:10:27): You know, when they put forth Hillary Clinton, why are Black women...

(01:10:33): I wish y'all could see Desiree's face.

(01:10:35): She said my son and my husband were a super predator.

(01:10:39): She said a black man in clothing, a hoodie is clothing, is a super predator.

(01:10:47): And backed her husband,

(01:10:49): backed the white women and their patriarchy and white men,

(01:10:53): backed her husband and Biden.

(01:10:56): On that fucking 96 crime bill.

(01:10:57): Yeah.

(01:10:58): Fuck your great white hope.

(01:10:59): Well, and we want to act like this is, well, she said the wrong word or my favorite.

(01:11:04): Well, we're all on a journey.

(01:11:06): Well, journey, yo.

(01:11:08): Cut that out.

(01:11:10): We need to consider that, yeah, you know, we all do better when we know better.

(01:11:15): That's true.

(01:11:15): I do.

(01:11:16): But also.

(01:11:16): But also, when you hold that much power.

(01:11:18): So here goes where the problem with that is.

(01:11:20): White people need to recognize their racial identity.

(01:11:22): Mm-hmm.

(01:11:23): White people think race was created for us.

(01:11:27): And that is a huge misnomer, okay?

(01:11:31): Let me explain why.

(01:11:33): When you guys came here, you were immigrant refugees.

(01:11:37): Is this thing on?

(01:11:38): Immigrant refugees, okay?

(01:11:42): You came to a land of brown people.

(01:11:46): The people of Turtle Island were brown.

(01:11:50): You stole and trafficked Black people from Africa.

(01:11:56): Mind you, the people in Turtle Island are a multitude of tribes who all had culture.

(01:12:03): Culture is defined as language, music, tradition, spiritual practices, foods, those sorts of things.

(01:12:09): You stole people that also had that.

(01:12:13): Guess we didn't have that in this land.

(01:12:16): That would be the white-skinned immigrant refugees.

(01:12:20): So, on the banks of Jamestown, Virginia in 1619, when race was created, it was created for y'all.

(01:12:29): Yeah.

(01:12:30): To separate you from those with culture.

(01:12:33): And whiteness is simply a socioeconomic political stance.

(01:12:37): It was created to say who could vote and who could make money.

(01:12:40): Even white men couldn't vote in this country without owning property.

(01:12:45): That's capitalism.

(01:12:47): That's the slave economy.

(01:12:49): And that is what we're still living in.

(01:12:50): People are crying and complaining.

(01:12:53): We're going to have to work.

(01:12:54): Project 2025 is taking away our social security.

(01:12:56): And I'm like, so when are you going to wake up that you're still in indentured servitude, sweetie?

(01:13:00): Yeah.

(01:13:01): These are still those holdovers and the refusal to go back there, right?

(01:13:06): So when it kind of comes,

(01:13:07): that goes back to all of that,

(01:13:08): like getting in touch with your roots,

(01:13:10): your ancestral culture,

(01:13:11): learning who your people are,

(01:13:13): who were you before you were white,

(01:13:14): what your people went through to become white.

(01:13:18): You had to become white.

(01:13:20): And that means you had to let go of everything you knew.

(01:13:23): You see that.

(01:13:24): Why that's important is you see that now in classism.

(01:13:27): Classism impacts white bodies the way racism impacts black bodies.

(01:13:32): Y'all call your own trash.

(01:13:34): I don't believe you.

(01:13:35): I don't believe you care about black people.

(01:13:38): If you could skip over poor white women and meth issues to skip over to black

(01:13:43): children dealing with the crack issues,

(01:13:46): you're a savior,

(01:13:47): not an activist.

(01:13:50): Because if you can't take care of your own in your own community, why are you over here?

(01:13:54): Yeah.

(01:13:54): I mean, we see this a lot with like missionary tourism.

(01:13:57): Right.

(01:13:58): Mission your ass to South Georgia.

(01:14:01): They still have dirt floors in Georgia.

(01:14:06): And the lack of caring for that community,

(01:14:08): that intracommunal care,

(01:14:11): actually emboldens your right that you guys complain about so much.

(01:14:15): Because if I'm sitting here in poverty,

(01:14:17): right,

(01:14:17): because that access,

(01:14:19): again,

(01:14:20): there comes a certain point in capitalism where the only color that matters is green.

(01:14:25): So if you're going to skip over your own intracommunal care,

(01:14:28): You can't worry about Black women's maternal rates,

(01:14:31): and you're not worried about the white woman who has no access to a doctor either.

(01:14:36): Because that is poverty and racism, and that is intersectionality.

(01:14:41): So that also answers your question on why you can't think about one or the other.

(01:14:46): When you're thinking about racism,

(01:14:47): I want white women to task themselves to think about classism at the same time.

(01:14:52): You could do it.

(01:14:53): I believe in you.

(01:14:55): Because what is impacting us, it's simply inescapable because we're Black.

(01:14:59): But then those issues are still impacting poor white women.

(01:15:02): And when you see that and you skip over it, imagine being the poor white person.

(01:15:06): Imagine being the person who didn't get out of poverty,

(01:15:09): who wasn't able to leverage their whiteness up those hierarchies of whiteness in

(01:15:13): the pyramid scheme of whiteness.

(01:15:15): But they're watching you advocate for

(01:15:17): for people across the fucking world.

(01:15:20): They're watching you advocate for people in the inner city.

(01:15:23): Put your own cousins.

(01:15:25): And then we don't believe you.

(01:15:27): Because your activism has to be from the hood to the holler.

(01:15:31): I'm from the hood.

(01:15:33): You got to care about all poor people and you should be taking care of your community first.

(01:15:37): Because I care about everybody.

(01:15:38): But I give this example.

(01:15:40): Like,

(01:15:40): if we're sitting here and there's a spread out and you come and your kids are hungry,

(01:15:44): I won't take from my kids to feed yours.

(01:15:45): Right.

(01:15:46): Ain't no way.

(01:15:47): None.

(01:15:48): None.

(01:15:49): You could pretend.

(01:15:50): You could say you're altruistic all you want.

(01:15:51): I'm not leaving my kids hungry to feed your kids.

(01:15:54): That's insane.

(01:15:55): I will share their food, though.

(01:15:57): We may eat a little less.

(01:15:58): Yeah.

(01:15:59): Well, I think for me, what is at the core of a lot of this is a complete deficit of empathy.

(01:16:08): You know,

(01:16:10): my experience as a white lady is that even in anti-racism,

(01:16:15): I want to put that in scare quotes,

(01:16:17): anti-racism circles,

(01:16:18): white identities are centered.

(01:16:20): And what I mean by that is white women talk about their anti-racism journey.

(01:16:26): They don't talk about the people they have hurt along the way.

(01:16:30): And the reason that we don't do that is because all of these systems of oppression rob us of empathy.

(01:16:36): So we're thinking about how,

(01:16:38): oh,

(01:16:38): I'm really trying to do better,

(01:16:39): and I'm really trying to be a good person,

(01:16:41): and I'm really trying to learn all I can,

(01:16:43): rather than like –

(01:16:45): Oh, there's my friend in front of me who needs an abortion.

(01:16:48): Maybe I could take her.

(01:16:49): Because we're just robbed of empathy by this focus on ourselves.

(01:16:53): So I want to conclude with kind of a big topic.

(01:16:57): And it's something I've been wanting to talk about, but I think you're the person to talk to about this.

(01:17:03): I see a lot where...

(01:17:05): I will have a minor disagreement with someone about something where I think we

(01:17:09): actually at the core agree,

(01:17:12): but they don't like a word I use or they don't like the way I approached it.

(01:17:16): Desiree's rolling her eyes.

(01:17:17): And we see this like cannibalism in activism circles.

(01:17:21): And I will get messages all the time from people saying,

(01:17:24): Who are like, you said this thing and I can never trust you again.

(01:17:27): And it's never like, oh, you said something terribly racist or you were justifying genocide.

(01:17:32): It's like, well, you talked about midwives and I knew a bad midwife once.

(01:17:36): Or you talked about how the medical system is broken and that means you're anti-medicine.

(01:17:40): So I just can't trust you.

(01:17:42): And, you know, this dynamic I think is like objectively harmful.

(01:17:47): And I think that our inability to sit with someone who disagrees with us and talk

(01:17:53): through it and figure it out.

(01:17:54): prevents us from learning.

(01:17:56): Desiree says all kinds of things that I disagree with.

(01:17:59): But what I know is that if I pulled the thread on any one of those things,

(01:18:04): that she and I could talk it out,

(01:18:05): 99% chance we would come to agreement.

(01:18:09): It's that she used a word that meant something different to me or her tone or it's triggering.

(01:18:15): But we don't do this.

(01:18:16): We don't say, well, what do you mean by that?

(01:18:19): Or surely you don't mean this.

(01:18:21): Can you just clarify?

(01:18:22): And

(01:18:23): What is this about?

(01:18:24): What do you think of that?

(01:18:26): And part of the reason I'm asking this is because I know I'm going to get people

(01:18:31): who say things like,

(01:18:32): well,

(01:18:33): she said that we should give men grace and that means she's supporting abuse or whatever.

(01:18:36): And it's not true.

(01:18:39): I get this.

(01:18:39): But even if it were,

(01:18:42): even if it were,

(01:18:43): it's worth listening to what someone who you disagree with,

(01:18:47): who's not,

(01:18:48): you know,

(01:18:48): an oppressive far-right asshole says,

(01:18:52): because we can learn.

(01:18:53): So what is this?

(01:18:55): Why is this happening?

(01:18:56): And how do we fix it?

(01:18:58): I'm going to tell you what.

(01:18:58): I would listen to an oppressive far-right asshole because I want to hear their thoughts.

(01:19:03): I need to know how you came to this conclusion, right?

(01:19:06): So for me, I tell people, get curious.

(01:19:09): It's just that simple.

(01:19:10): Because there's a reason why you thought that.

(01:19:13): And we have to be realistic.

(01:19:16): 2024, some people have never seen a Black person in real life.

(01:19:20): That's, yeah.

(01:19:21): Like, it's very wild how people do not understand.

(01:19:25): What is it, like 60% of America is still rural.

(01:19:28): Yeah.

(01:19:29): They've not seen a trans person.

(01:19:31): They've not needed an abortion,

(01:19:33): at least not as openly as we've spoken about it,

(01:19:36): because they live in an ultra conservative Christian town.

(01:19:40): And you could just have 10, 12 kids and live on the farm.

(01:19:43): So these things don't seem real to them.

(01:19:45): And that goes back to your empathy, right?

(01:19:48): Is we get this.

(01:19:52): America is a business.

(01:19:53): In a business, you need to always be selling.

(01:19:56): In order to sell, you must market.

(01:19:59): What do we market?

(01:20:01): We will market dangerous Black people.

(01:20:03): We will market salacious women who need abortions.

(01:20:08): We will market the wealthy white family, middle class.

(01:20:15): And when you do that, you leave out a bunch of other people.

(01:20:18): You left out all the poor white people.

(01:20:21): You left out all the Black people who are not violent.

(01:20:23): You left out the fact that poverty breeds violence.

(01:20:26): So that's across the board, no matter what you are.

(01:20:29): You left out the person who needs abortion for medical reasons or personal reasons.

(01:20:35): I should be able to not have a child.

(01:20:38): Period.

(01:20:38): Blank, blank, full stop.

(01:20:41): So that empathy, that lack thereof, comes from those systems of whiteness, right?

(01:20:46): This is what I mean, right?

(01:20:47): When you're taught everything is moral.

(01:20:49): When Christian supremacy is your God.

(01:20:53): And that is your nation's foundation.

(01:20:56): And these are the ways it should go.

(01:20:59): And not recognizing that that Christianity in and of itself was co-opted from Judaism,

(01:21:04): but that's another time.

(01:21:04): Yeah.

(01:21:07): When you are not allowed to think,

(01:21:10): when you're not given the space,

(01:21:12): right,

(01:21:12): when you have that childism,

(01:21:14): when you have that cis,

(01:21:16): white,

(01:21:17): hetero,

(01:21:18): Christian patriarchy as your foundation,

(01:21:21): and you should be shut up,

(01:21:22): woman.

(01:21:23): Listen to what I say.

(01:21:24): You learn to be small.

(01:21:26): Mm-hmm.

(01:21:28): It's survival.

(01:21:29): And then you teach your child that, right?

(01:21:32): And that's part of those pillars of supremacy.

(01:21:35): That's that either or thinking.

(01:21:36): That's that defensiveness.

(01:21:38): That is your conflict avoidance, right?

(01:21:40): So now you teach your child, shh, because we don't want to upset dad.

(01:21:48): And then we never talk about it or we have these secrets.

(01:21:51): So you learn this.

(01:21:52): This is learned and taught behavior through the generations of not having empathy,

(01:21:57): not having open conversations,

(01:21:59): and more importantly,

(01:22:01): not having conflicting views.

(01:22:03): Yeah.

(01:22:04): that is what happens yeah right because whiteness the the wildness is whiteness

(01:22:11): birth canal is the alt-right so when white people like those alt-right white ass

(01:22:15): and I'm like you do know that's how we see all of you because the birth canal of

(01:22:20): whiteness it's a non-consensual system no one asked you if you wanted to be white

(01:22:25): no one asked you if you wanted to be a woman no one asked you if you wanted to be

(01:22:28): Christian like I literally saw somebody on one of my things that were like I was

(01:22:32): born a Christian I was like were you

(01:22:35): Like, is that a thing that's assigned to you?

(01:22:38): Like, your sex?

(01:22:40): So when you have a system that is non-consensual at the foundation...

(01:22:46): The birth canal is that.

(01:22:49): Yeah.

(01:22:50): So stepping away from that, it's very uncomfortable.

(01:22:53): It's very uncomfortable.

(01:22:54): And the solution for me is just to get curious.

(01:22:57): Yeah.

(01:22:58): Why do they think that?

(01:22:59): What are their life experiences that brought them to that conclusion?

(01:23:03): And when I say the give grace,

(01:23:04): because I want to make sure that I clear that up,

(01:23:07): I mean,

(01:23:08): give grace to yourself too.

(01:23:09): Yeah.

(01:23:09): Because it's wild that all of a sudden you become the authority on something,

(01:23:12): but five years ago,

(01:23:13): you didn't know it.

(01:23:14): Mm-hmm.

(01:23:15): So give yourself that grace and then extend that to anybody else.

(01:23:19): If hearing me saying give it to a man is too activating and I understand that,

(01:23:24): give it to yourself and to anybody else.

(01:23:27): Why do you think that?

(01:23:29): Yeah.

(01:23:29): I like to think a lot about all the things I've been wrong about when I'm interacting with someone else.

(01:23:35): and think maybe they're just wrong because they don't know something or maybe

(01:23:38): they're not wrong and i am or maybe neither of us is wrong and they just used a

(01:23:42): word that i interpret to mean something else but one of the things that i learned

(01:23:46): from you desiree that like once i learned this it helped me understand so much and

(01:23:51): it seems so simple at first is that a pillar of white supremacy is a sense of

(01:23:56): urgency and i'm going to give an example of a way this manifests um

(01:24:01): You know, abortion should be a right for everyone, shouldn't have to justify it.

(01:24:05): Women don't typically regret their abortions, blah, blah, blah.

(01:24:07): We know all of this.

(01:24:08): I'm not going to get into this.

(01:24:09): Something else is true.

(01:24:11): A lot of women have traumatic abortion experiences,

(01:24:15): and a lot of abortion clinics do not treat their patients well and do not provide

(01:24:19): comprehensive trauma-informed care.

(01:24:22): Both things can be true.

(01:24:23): Yes.

(01:24:24): But if you talk about the second thing,

(01:24:26): a lot of people on the left will say,

(01:24:28): well,

(01:24:28): right now we have to focus on keeping abortion legal.

(01:24:31): We can't talk about that.

(01:24:32): But there are people being actively harmed by that second thing.

(01:24:35): Right.

(01:24:36): And that's the sense of urgency of,

(01:24:37): well,

(01:24:38): we'll get to that later because right now we have an emergency and there's always

(01:24:42): an emergency.

(01:24:43): Right.

(01:24:43): And so we've got to focus on all of the emergencies because they all matter because

(01:24:48): they're real humans under them.

(01:24:49): What I want to say is that

(01:24:53): It's only an emergency because you're white.

(01:24:57): It only seems new because you're white.

(01:24:59): That's it, right?

(01:25:00): If you're doing this work and you de-censor whiteness, and that doesn't mean not care about yourself.

(01:25:05): That means to de-censor whiteness as a system.

(01:25:09): access to healthy births,

(01:25:11): access to safe abortion,

(01:25:14): access to trauma-informed care has always been an issue since the inception of this country.

(01:25:21): And if you want to go beyond the borders of it,

(01:25:25): from your own homeland of feudalist England, right?

(01:25:29): Like, you had pregnant women on pikes.

(01:25:32): So, like, it only feels urgent, and I need white people to truthfully sit with that truth.

(01:25:41): It only feels urgent because it's impacting you.

(01:25:44): And because it's new to you, I think.

(01:25:46): I think that's a big part of it.

(01:25:47): It's not new because we've been talking about it.

(01:25:50): Black women, indigenous women of this land have been talking about it.

(01:25:55): These are not new concepts.

(01:25:57): We have been marching and screaming since we were drug here or y'all landed on them.

(01:26:05): It is only urgent because white women are impacted by it, right?

(01:26:11): Like I made a post that a lot of white people were upset about.

(01:26:14): And I was like, here's your handmade tails outfit.

(01:26:17): It's the blue one.

(01:26:19): It's not the red, fam.

(01:26:21): I need you to focus.

(01:26:22): You know what I'm saying?

(01:26:24): And that is a difficult reality.

(01:26:26): But when you de-censor whiteness, when you get curious, you want to know.

(01:26:31): Because it's an entire system that has formed your opinions.

(01:26:36): You've not had your own opinions.

(01:26:38): I hate to let people know that.

(01:26:39): Most of us have not.

(01:26:41): We have not had the space.

(01:26:42): Capitalism alone...

(01:26:45): keeps its foot on our neck so long and for so many generations,

(01:26:51): you don't have time to breathe,

(01:26:53): let alone think critically,

(01:26:54): let alone experience other people or sit down and deeply connect.

(01:26:59): So you must be intentional about, I want to hear why you think that.

(01:27:03): And you could still be wrong to you,

(01:27:07): but multiple truths exist because our truths are going to come from our experiences.

(01:27:12): And,

(01:27:12): like,

(01:27:12): to your point about the—no,

(01:27:13): it is important that we talk about it because if we're going to keep abortion legal,

(01:27:17): we damn sure better keep it safe.

(01:27:19): And we damn sure better do better with the care that they're receiving.

(01:27:22): Yeah, none of this assembly line stuff.

(01:27:23): So, yeah, that sense of urgency prevents us from thinking, and it prevents us from being effective.

(01:27:29): It prevents me from saying, yeah, okay, what do you mean?

(01:27:32): How can we come together?

(01:27:33): How can we build the long-term plan that we know our enemies have?

(01:27:38): How can we—

(01:27:39): How can we make it work?

(01:27:40): So the thing I would like to ask people to do to show that you have actually

(01:27:44): listened and learned something here is that if you disagree with something you hear

(01:27:49): here or you think it's outrageous or whatever,

(01:27:52): ask a question.

(01:27:53): Like, what do you mean by that?

(01:27:55): Just get curious.

(01:27:57): For, like, this podcast, I would love to see people doing that.

(01:27:59): Can you clarify?

(01:28:00): Because Desiree will clarify.

(01:28:02): You know, Desiree and I are talking all the time.

(01:28:05): Sure.

(01:28:06): So yeah, as always, I'd like you guys to share, like, comment, review.

(01:28:11): I'm going to put all of Desiree's information in the show notes.

(01:28:15): She has just a massive body of work that goes so deep.

(01:28:20): It's so interesting.

(01:28:22): She's an amazing writer.

(01:28:24): You should read her.

(01:28:25): And we will be back in two weeks.

(01:28:26): Thank you, guys.