Andrew (00:01) Well, hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Beyond the Bank. This is a topic that I know will be of interest to so many and it really relates to Gene's perspectives on the topic of estate planning. As we talk to advisors and clients, this is probably trending issue number one as it relates to a topic that is so important to clients and yet,

advisors struggle with this topic. It is deeply emotional. There's a lot of connected issues to estate planning. so Gene would love to get your perspectives on advisors and, this topic.

Jean (00:46) Sure, it is a really difficult topic. It's hard for all of us as human beings in our families for our personal planning. It's difficult for the lawyers that are involved and certainly for advisors and you and I have seen that over many years. One of the things that I've realized now that I am a psychotherapist is that it can be...

a little misleading and unhelpful to view the same process in the same way for each person. So when it comes to estate planning, it could be helpful for advisors when they're speaking with clients who seem to be struggling with moving ahead with their estate planning to take a pause and kind of reflect on which of the following three categories the client might be in. The first one is the client who

doesn't have any problem at all with estate planning. What they want to do is clear and it is in everyone's mind very fair, perhaps an equal distribution amongst children who are all equally capable, equally financially independent. And as well this, you know, type of client feels that estate planning is a bit of a, sure it's bittersweet because of course it does mean that one is no longer

living, but it's an opportunity to pass on a legacy to one's children. I would put my own parents in this category. They always viewed estate planning in a very, I found, healthy and open way and discussed what the contents of their will were and all of that kind of thing. The second category, well, maybe I'll pause there and just say what I would recommend for advisors in this category. Certainly, I think people that are like that,

certainly appreciate the affirmation about the way that they've approached it. We can never go wrong with letting people know, you know, when they're doing a good job on something. And then there might be opportunities for them to do something around the edges, so to speak. You know, in my work as an estate lawyer, I often found that personal effects were something that, you know, either got through the bulk of the estate planning and, you know, they might refer to a memo in their

will, you know, check out, look for that memo I'm going to leave before I die and like follow those provisions. The reality is that very few people actually get around to actually, you know, doing a memo specifying what their personal effects are. And when people mention their parents or loved ones, very often they mention some personal possession that they have from that individual. And so that's just one example of many.

of where a person who has, know, it's all done, their estate planning, it's really great, they feel good about it. Just, you know, are there opportunities perhaps to get that memo done or, you know, put little post -it notes on the back of artwork or to, you know, make a list of beloved jewelry and where it should go and have conversations about that.

The second type of client might be the one that's just procrastinating on the whole thing. There's really no estate planning done and it seems to be a conversation that gets pushed out year after year. If procrastination itself is the issue, this is an opportunity for a conversation about what estate planning means to them. My suspicion is that it's difficult for them, perhaps in the prime of their life, or perhaps as they enter their retirement years.

to think about the possibility of no longer being with their family of death, frankly. In a situation like this, there's just so many resources these days, whether it's a coach, whether it's a psychotherapist, whether it's an in -depth conversation with a trusted advisor about what estate planning might afford them the opportunity to do.

conversations about how it is an opportunity to really leave a legacy in a different way than they are doing through their work or through the many activities that they have in their life. And also on a practical level, perhaps it's an opportunity to talk about just really frankly what needs to be done now and what could be left to a future time when they're feeling more interested in doing estate planning. you know, why ignore it all if there's

something that can be done. Maybe the person can bring themselves to do a basic will that does the job, that is valid, that represents their basic wishes and power of attorney for personal care, power of attorney for directive, all that good stuff, get it done. Because the old saying is perfect is the enemy of good. And when it comes to a will, sometimes, you know.

let's just get it done and it may not have all the bells and whistles and everything, but it's better than dying intestate or dying with out of will and requiring the family to go through a process called administration. The third category of clients when it comes to estate planning may also be hesitating, but it's for quite a different reason. And that is because there is something in their estate planning substance that is troublesome.

troublesome that they know that one child probably requires more than the other in terms of financial support is currently receiving more than the others in terms of financial support. you know, they've got the information from their lawyer that maybe that will need to be mean a bigger bequest in a bigger share of the residue in their will. But they know that this will be a controversial discussion, a controversial planning, or it might be a grandparent who has made the decision that

She wants to share her estate equally between her two adult children and her two grandchildren. But knowing that one of those, one of the children, say the one that doesn't have children himself, might find that very, very difficult to swallow. That their share would be smaller because grandchildren are getting a share in the estate. There's a thousand examples of things that people want to do and...

suspect that it would be difficult and so they're not moving forward. You know, probably in another podcast I might discuss the process that I would suggest with this type of client, but to begin with it really requires an exploration of why the person is struggling with making a decision that to them feels right, that they have been advised by their lawyer is valid and is illegal.

It's always helpful when we're moving through something difficult to understand our organizing principles, the principles that are part of us since our formative years. It really makes it easier to move ahead with difficult things when we understand why we are feeling the way that we're feeling. And then moving into what I refer to, what many people refer to as a trifecta of thoughts, feelings, and results.

looking at the result we want, which might be harmony now or might be harmony both now and after we die, and the thoughts and feelings that we will need to generate in ourselves in order to go through the process of getting to that result. So that is something sometimes it's referred to as cognitive behavioral therapy or there's many different names for it, but truly our thoughts in life do drive our feelings, which in turn

drive the actions that we're able to take to generate the results we want. And that supplies to estate planning as it does to every other area of life. So that is my overview of the different types of clients and the struggles that they might be having and you know, they may be sharing it to the client or excuse me to the advisor in exactly the same way. Let's talk about that next time. Let's just talk about my portfolio results right now.

But beneath that, there may be one of those three situations that is worth exploring and therefore having a better, more effective way of helping the client move forward.

Andrew (09:24) This is such an interesting and complicated topic that I know we can go on for a lot longer, but a couple of maybe follow on questions to that outline. The one piece that seems clear is that there is not a one size fits all approach to this topic. And a lot can go wrong and we've seen a lot go wrong. And usually where it goes wrong is not the legality of the documents.

but the relational dynamics of the people that are impacted both while alive and then afterwards in terms of interpreting a will. What are your perspectives on that intersection? Like why is it not one size fits all? And why is this such a topic that can go wrong in so many unanticipated ways?

Jean (10:15) You're absolutely right that it's rarely a technical problem. mean, I can't, I've read a lot of state case law and it's rare that it's like, my gosh, you know, looks like the second witness wasn't present at the time of the will was signed. Like, I don't know. that doesn't, you know, that doesn't just happen very often. and if that kind of thing happened, there's probably a way to navigate it. I think it's, it's because

Andrew (10:32) you

Jean (10:43) you know at the base of it that will really reflects the fact that we are going to die and that brings up a lot of emotions in most of us and so you know everything comes to bear whether that's happy day this is an opportunity for me to like talk about my will planning every day of my life and you know control my children by

teasing them with this, that, or the other. I I've seen that approach, that's coming from an individual's need for attention and need for being the center of attention when maybe they don't feel that way. Or the person who really hopes to live to 110 and just can't think about dying, or an individual, as I mentioned, who...

truly knows what he or she wants to do in their will and realizes that that will be upsetting to someone that they care about. When that is the issue, it can be very difficult to move forward. when once people have moved forward, it can be very difficult to talk about that or communicate that. And when people realize upon the death or, you know, to use the movie's term, the reading of the will, that they're

that their parent often did something unexpected. That is a jolt. And in our culture, the reflexive thing to do at that point is to call a And it's not to, the first thing that people think of is not to sit down and have a conversation and, or to take some time

Andrew (12:20) So interesting.

Jean (12:36) have a cup of coffee, sit by oneself or with a trusted spouse and talk it through and think about the result that they want, whether that's family harmony, whether that's peace of mind. This is the will, this is what it says. I really, really hate it, but can I live with it? know, people often and I...

You know, I include myself in this, not in the estate planning area, but we can all get hotheaded. And when it comes to estates, that hotheadedness has big consequences. Litigation, mediation, expensive lawyers. And I have no problem with lawyers being expensive. They earn every dime. But sometimes if we give estate planning and the contents of wills,

their proper due as a very emotional thing. There's different opportunities to work our way through the difficulties than simply going to the very business -minded legal fight.

Andrew (13:48) And that takes me to perhaps just to close with some tips. One area that I know you're very passionate about with Delisle is the role of psychotherapy and exploring a number of these questions before you actually begin to the exercise of an estate plan. And my question for you is actually twofold because you travel in really both of these worlds.

What do you experience in your psychotherapy practice or with other psychotherapists related to topics such as estate planning and what advice do you have for advisors? And I know you have a lot of thoughts about how do we navigate this, which sounds like a whole lot more than perhaps the technical training of financial planning as it relates to estate planning.

Jean (14:43) Sure. So this is a topic that comes up all the time in therapy practices. I've spoken to a number of my colleagues about it. It's an emotional topic. It's a difficult topic. It involves money. Those are all the indicia of things that come up in, you know, very confidential therapy sessions. So it comes up. And if...

For the advisor, the opportunity for them is to approach that either initiating a therapeutic relationship if the client is someone that is open to that, to talk through what they're struggling with once something has been identified as perhaps emotional roadblock to moving forward, whether that's moving forward with their estate planning or moving forward with...

navigating on the state administration that isn't making them happy. And that can be really a great approach for an individual who does want to likely take the time probably.

two to four or six sessions to talk through with a psychotherapist what they're thinking, their anger, their sadness, whatever it might be. Psychotherapists don't offer advice. Sometimes as a psychotherapist, we certainly have lots of advice in our minds and as the therapeutic relationship deepens.

There are ways for us to express curiosity about different paths that can help clients think about ways out of their feeling troubled. But it isn't a one and done. It's usually not a one and done sort of approach. And for something as important as this, it's well worth it, but it's maybe not for everyone. The other option, and I've recently seen a situation of this that was very powerful.

is to use mediation. And what that involves is, say, usually a two -hour session between often just two people, maybe more, and prior to the mediation, individual sessions between the mediator and each individual to really understand their story, their intentions for the mediation, what they hope to gain out of it, and so on. And that typically is one session with the intention of getting to a result.

and a resolution and it can be very, very effective. Now that would be more useful in the situation where there are specifics in the estate planning that involve other people. It's not just the advisor's client trying to do this on his or her own or specific beneficiaries in an estate who are in conflict. But both of those work very well. It is...

unfair to lawyers, tax accountants, probably at the end of the day, wealth advisors, to expect those individuals to help us work through all of these, quote, touchy -feely things. But help is needed because without that assistance or guidance, it really can take a wrong turn. And, you know, I recently read a case,

publicly reported case so it isn't confidential that I shared with you about an estate litigation that literally spent more in legal fees than the upside to the applicant to the plaintiff. And the judge was very, very angry in his reported comment saying, you know, this is scorched the earth litigation and...

It just didn't make sense that the parties took it to this level. And as I read that, I thought there wasn't really any quiet time spent here to reflect on, you know, the desired result and what it might take to get to a better result.

Andrew (19:12) So interesting and so many great perspectives. This is a topic that I know will cover more and probably do deep dives with yourself and other guests, because it certainly is a fascinating topic that you've helped give some of the interesting perspectives to.

Jean (19:28) Yeah, I look forward to that because as you know, Andrew, I've had a number of interviews with people for the book that I'm working on on this topic. every one of them is, you know, people don't ask them these questions very often. They're mostly asked very technical questions, legal questions. then, of course, therapists, when I've interviewed therapists, they're...

they're in a situation in which they can't talk about their sessions, but they can certainly talk and they enjoy talking at a high level about the volume of and the general nature of estate issues that come from their clients.

Andrew (20:14) Fascinating. Thank you so much. Any closing thoughts before we wrap up?

Jean (20:20) No, I don't think so. We're really pleased with people listening to our podcast so far and to the extent that they want to follow us or follow us on social media. That is terrific.

Andrew (20:31) Great, wherever you get your podcasts is where you will find us. So thanks again, Gene, and we will talk soon. Bye for now.

Jean (20:33) answer.

Great, bye for now.