Jean (00:01) Hello everyone, my name is Jean Blacklock and I'd like to welcome you to Beyond the Bank. This is episode one of our podcast and I'm here with the co -founder of Delisle Advisory Group, Andrew Orbeck. Andrew, would you like to say hello?

Andrew (00:14) Hello, it is nice to be here.

Jean (00:18) Today we're going to be describing our new boutique wealth management firm, Delisle Advisory Group. And before we get into that, we're going to talk a little bit about our respective paths through financial services that's brought us to founding a boutique wealth management firm. And as we talk about our paths, we're going to share some of our observations about our time in financial services along the way. So I know, Andrew,

Your financial services career started in high school, so how about you kick it off?

Andrew (00:50) Sure, absolutely. It is fun to be doing this with you. We're both big fans of this medium and it's neat for us to put it in practice at Delisle. So you're obviously right. My background has always been circling around wealth management. I started, as you've mentioned, in high school at a trust company and through university.

did a number of progressively senior roles part -time. And what was interesting about that is I always wanted to be a trader. I had a vision of a Wall Street, perhaps not as villainous as Gordon Gekko, but I've always been intrigued by the markets and saw myself on a trading floor. And at graduation, I was offered a job on a trading floor.

And turned it down and ended up staying at Canada Trust and doing a number of jobs there and I mentioned that only because it's something that you know both both of us talk about a lot the importance of culture that you know the work you're doing you have to do it in a place that you like working with people that you respect and Feel alignment with and and and that was Canada Trust for me and it was a wonderful run Did a number of different jobs ended up?

really doing a variety of roles, mostly in wealth management, mostly in investment counseling, in discretionary investment management, both at Canada Trust and then at BMO. You and I met in 2000 at BMO. I was doing a number of jobs. I was a market leader. I ran the investment counseling business nationally. I ended up running the private bank in Canada and Asia.

did a number of other jobs ending with 20 years later, amazingly at BMO combining the full serve brokerage business BMO, Nesbit Burns with the investment counseling business BMO Private Bank. And so I ran that business in Canada and Asia and then had a wonderful retirement from BMO worked with you on launching a bakery which was great fun and is great fun.

And of course that brings us to the launch of Delisle, something we're both very passionate about.

Jean (03:15) Great. So just back to your career in financial services for a moment, I just have a couple of questions. One of the things that I know young people just out of university or in university often ask you is, how do I choose between this job or that job? You know, I can't make a mistake here. Which should I pick? And could you talk just a little bit about that decision that you made to...

Choose Canada Trust over the trading floor and your thoughts generally on the importance of individual decisions.

Andrew (03:50) Yeah, this is something that both of us, think we get a lot of questions around career path and journey. And you you've hit on some of the key pieces already. And the most important one, which I think people underestimate is get a feel for the place you're applying for as opposed to the job you're applying for. Most importantly, your boss, I think having a good boss is something that stays with you your entire career. You and I can think back.

to great bosses we had and how instrumental they were at different moments in our career. Conversely, I can think of some not great bosses that I've had equally valuable in terms of shaping my own leadership style and approach and things that I would or would not do. And so getting the right place is so important. The other piece related to this, and this is something that I think is very hard to do when you're starting out is,

Don't look at the big, big job and say, I want that job. How do I get it? Because the reality is when you talk to the occupants of those jobs, I guarantee you they're all gonna talk zigzaggy. They're gonna tell you about pivots and left and right and backward and forward. look where I ended up. And it's never linear. There's never, well, this is the job I had my site on. So I did nine jobs before it then got to this one.

The most important thing I think that I always stress is just do exceptionally well in any job. mean, organizations are big and complicated and you have a role to play and likely in a big place, it's one role amongst thousands of other rules. Keep your head down, do great work, be helpful, you get noticed, you have another opportunity and so on and so on.

The ones that get a smidge on annoying perhaps, and certainly I would confess that I found it annoying during my corporate career, is the people that just wanna endlessly talk about what's next. Because I guarantee you, your boss is thinking about what's now. They have things they need delivered, you're essential to delivering those things, and while it's important to have time to talk about career and progression, that's not why you're there. You're there to do exceptionally well.

at whatever the job is in front of you.

Jean (06:15) Right, right. know sometimes you use the phrase, you know, who do you want in the foxhole with you, which is sort of a war -related one, but you know, in these big jobs, there's always going to be difficulties, always going to be bad quarters, and the direct reports that really, that you want to move ahead with you are the ones that just put their head down and really support you and don't need a lot of praise while they're doing it.

Andrew (06:38) That's absolutely right. And I would, you know, I actually just realized now that some people listening or watching this might not know we're also married as well as being partners at Delisle. So I have a confession that I actually plagiarized that one from you. I think you've used that one. So I've put it in my repertoire, but it's all good.

Jean (06:54) okay. after all these years, we don't really know who said what the first time. Okay. So before I move on to speak briefly about my career in financial services, I just have one more question, and that is, you know, when you look back at the success you had in financial services, what would you point to as the one or two or three

Andrew (07:01) Exactly. Exactly.

Jean (07:22) things that you did really well and what would have been the one or two things that you, you know, were, as they say in large companies, opportunities for development for you? Are you able to look back and kind of assess what those are?

Andrew (07:37) my goodness. Yes. I think careers are rife with a whole bunch of those because you know, you can only look backward to reflect on on on those kinds of things. You know, I had a wonderful career in in large organizations. I really enjoyed the breadth and the variety of the things I was doing. And probably there's a couple of success factors. One of them I mentioned already, which is I always try to do the best job I possibly could.

in whatever assignment I was asked to do. And that sounds trite, but I actually think that's probably the most important thing because your boss has a boss who has a boss and so on. you know, not that people are selfish, but you've got to contribute, you know, and you've got to enjoy the work. I was always very candid. I never tried to fit into somebody else's mold.

there's lots of things I do well. think there's lots of things I don't do well, because I'm a human like everybody else who has that kind of a ledger. And I would really stress you don't need to like me as the former bank executive, you don't need to golf, you don't need to schmooze, you don't need to do those things if they're not you, I don't do those things at all. And it worked out well, it worked out well for me on the path of things that I might do.

differently. think in big organizations, there can sometimes be groupthink. And I think everybody gets stuck in a little bit of groupthink. And so sometimes you silence your intuition because of groupthink, because everybody's moving in one direction, you have a different point of view about an initiative or strategy or a person, you know, talent wise.

And the only regrets I've ever had have been regrets of pace. Usually they've been regrets related to talent, because as you get more and more senior, the most important thing you do is assembling your leadership team, right? Because they also have very big jobs. And so if you want to influence change running a business, you've really got to hire people that are going to really help you contribute your goals. And so my major regrets, as you would know, you've been along for the ride.

for most of this. The regrets I would have, I've always been just not moving quick enough, that ultimately getting to the right place, but I could have trusted my instincts and moved quicker, would have been more fair to the individual who would be impacted by that, and certainly would have helped with accomplishing the goals that I wanted to accomplish. And I'm very much looking forward to turning this around to you.

Jean (10:26) Sure, sure, I'll do that now. just, your comment about not needing to follow the rules of like networking, playing golf or playing hockey or going for lunches, I know as your spouse you never really did very much of that at all. It was all about the work really. And I remember the one time before you realized that you were highly allergic to anything that's green when you went out and played a round of golf and then the next day you showed up at work and

maybe some of our listeners will know Gilles Ouellette, who was your boss at the time. And he looked at you and he wasn't one that, you know, he is not one to give like lot of like fond concern. And I know you thought, you think so highly of Gilles, but I think he looked at you and said, what the hell is wrong with you? Because your face was like so, so a pumpkin as of the golf course. So that was the end of that.

Andrew (11:09) I do.

A pumpkin!

Jean (11:20) Yes, so for me, my financial services path was nowhere near as straight as yours. I had jobs in high school at my parents' auction market, not a bank. And I went to, I've always loved food and cooking and very seriously considered doing that as a career and even looked at the University of Guelph's hospitality commerce program, which they still have today. Got a business degree with a major in food.

food service and hospitality, but decided eventually to go to the University of Saskatchewan where my parents had gone and my siblings, just an absolutely phenomenal university, and received a business degree and a law degree. And then as many of my classmates did, went to the big city of Calgary to article. Articled, and to your point about serendipity being involved so much in our career, we can...

When we're young, we think we can plan it all out. You know, someone in the tax group, frankly, had a heart attack and there was an opening in estate planning for me because of his heart attack. And I hadn't even taken a wills class in law school, but I grew to really love the work. Estate planning, I love it still today. It's such a window into people's lives and to how people think.

Andrew (12:22) someone in the tax group frankly had a heart attack and there was an opening in the state planning for me because of heart attack and I hadn't even taken a wills class in law school but I grew to really

state planning. I love it still today. It's such a window into people's lives and how people think, their view on family, their view on material items. And so I became a partner, I think about seven years into my legal career and enjoyed that for

Jean (12:46) their view on family, their view on material items. And so I became a partner, I think about seven years into my legal career, and enjoyed that for several years before I was approached by a bank, the same bank that you worked at. And after a number of interviews, some of which were in Toronto, I accepted a job as an executive to run the Calgary Wealth Services area.

Andrew (13:02) that you worked at and after a number of interviews, some of which were in Toronto, I accepted her job as a

I started there in January of 1998 and two weeks later BMO and RBC announced.

Jean (13:15) I started there in January of 1998 and two weeks later, BMO and RBC announced the merger. And my immediate thought was I gave up a partnership just to get a severance package because, you know, nobody at that time really knew what was going to happen to that merger request. We all know now, of course, it was denied, which led to quite a restructuring at our bank, BMO, of the wealth group.

Andrew (13:29) get a severance package because you know nobody at that time really knew.

at that our bank.

Jean (13:46) separating it from personal. And at that point, I was asked to run the Prairies Market and subsequently transfer to Toronto to focus on wealth services. And that's where you and I really worked together. You were at that time head of investment services. What I learned joining financial services was just way too much to say in a podcast. The leadership training,

Andrew (13:46) creating it from personal and at that point I...

And that's where.

What I learned.

just way too much to say in a podcast. The leadership training, the credit training, the management's training, the observations, all of our learning.

Jean (14:16) the credit training, the management training, the observations, all of our learning was far beyond what I had had the opportunity to see in a law firm. was an excellent firm and I learned a lot, a a company, a publicly traded company like a bank just offers.

Andrew (14:36) offers any any employees so much opportunity to retraining and all that and I hope and trust that that's still the case in large companies even with you movement online much of the training that I attended and you attended was in person and I think we both agree that there's a lot to be said for that. When I think about what I did well in my leadership

Jean (14:38) any employee so much opportunity for training and all of that. And I hope and trust that that's still the case in large companies, even with the movement online, because much of the training that I attended and you attended was in person. And I think we both agree that there's a lot to be said for that. When I think about what I did well in my leadership roles and where my opportunities were,

what I did well and continue to do well and I think help you with from time to time is I'm very observant about others. I am quite empathetic. I've got a good intuition and I see dynamics in groups and in people that is helpful in leadership. People do like to be remembered and acknowledged and I'm good at that.

Andrew (15:14) about others. I am quite empathetic. I've got a good intuition and I see dynamics in groups and in people that is helpful in leadership. People do like to be remembered and acknowledged and I'm good at that. The opportunity for me has always been on a focus on

Jean (15:36) The opportunity for me has always been on a focus on the end game. And what I mean by that is I think it's critical for a senior leader, and you do this so very well, to keep in mind the end game, which in a publicly traded company is often certain goals and numbers to hit and all of that.

Andrew (15:45) the end game. And what I mean by that is I think it's critical for a senior leader, and you do this so very well, to keep in mind the end game, which in a publicly traded company is often certain goals and numbers to hit and all of that. And one of the things that I really admire in you is just, you know,

Jean (16:05) And one of the things that I really admire in you is just a fervent look at the numbers and where they're at and the levers that you need to move in order to hit those numbers. I certainly always did it, but I think it came less easily to me than to you. So we're perfect partners in business because you are super skilled at technology and financial.

Andrew (16:12) fervent look at the numbers and where they're at and the levers that you need to move in order to get those numbers. I certainly always did it, I think it came less easily to me than to you. So we're perfect partners in business because you are super skilled at technology and financial management and.

Jean (16:36) management and I am pretty good at the creativity and people skills and and and all of that vision of a visionary I guess which sounds very pompous anyway I left the bank during the financial crisis at that point you and I had recently become engaged and it was to everybody's benefit that that I leave the bank and I had a wonderful

Andrew (16:40) creativity and people, skills and all of that. A visionary, guess, which sounds very pompous. Anyway, I left the bank during the financial crisis. At that point, you and I had recently become engaged and it was to everybody's benefit that I leave the bank.

Jean (17:04) running Prairie Girl Bakery and training as a psychotherapist. And both of those things were absolutely incredible. Particularly the psychotherapy I'm bringing into our now new firm, Delisle Advisory Group. I think you from the very beginning have seen psychotherapy and its intersection with estate planning as pivotal to what we want to do in the wealth management space in Canada.

Andrew (17:05) and training as a psychotherapist and both of those things were absolutely incredible. Particularly the psychotherapy I'm bringing into our now new firm, Delisle Advisory Group.

think you from the very beginning have seen psychotherapy and its intersection with the state planning as pivotal to what we want to do in the wealth management space in Canada. And with that, maybe I'll turn it back to you to talk about our firm.

Jean (17:32) And with that, maybe I'll turn it back to you to talk about our firm, why you've thought about it for so many years and about its launch and over the last year.

Andrew (17:41) so many years and you know, about its launch and over the last year. Okay, but I have some questions for you first. I get to ask some questions because I know I get a lot of questions about you and one of them is often the range of things you've done that I have found people find it so interesting. The tapestry of very, different entrepreneurial, professional, corporate roles you've done.

You've mentioned a bunch of them. You haven't talked about being an author as well and writing a number of successful books in broad categories. So maybe just again, the coaching you give people when you get that question, which you've had many times about breadth or range or creativity, whatever the word is.

Jean (18:29) Yes, I think it's daunting to people to think about career changes. my philosophy has always been that nothing is, very, very little in life is irrevocable. And I knew that when I left, for example, the law firm, that that didn't take away the fact that I was a lawyer. If I didn't go back to that firm, I knew I could continue to practice, but I wanted to see what it was like in a large company. I was intrigued.

I mean, I was intrigued even by the form of compensation, know, stock options. Wow, I thought like, and so I've always been excited by, you know, what's on the other side of the door. And so I just encourage people if they see something in life and they want to know what's on the other side of the door, you know, not to be reckless, but if you do look at the risks and they feel you feel you can mitigate them, then, you know, try new things. We only get one shot at what is

Andrew (19:11) They see something.

Jean (19:28) quite a brief life when all things are considered. The other thing that I would say is, and this is really applied to my bakery, is a passion can remain a passion and a hobby forever, and then you can decide to turn it into a business. I think people think it's one or the other. They either have this, quote, mainstream job that at the moment they're finding boring or,

Andrew (19:31) The other thing.

bakery is a passion can remain a passion and a hobby for.

business.

think people think it's one or the other. They either have this quote, mainstream job that at the moment they're finding boring or they do this risky business. And I don't agree with that. As you well know, I've always baked, I've always cooked, I've always checked out bakeries, every city we've lived in, I've always looked at websites, trends. You've done the same in technology. I don't know if you ever will in the technology business, but keep those hobbies.

Jean (19:58) They do this risky business. And I don't agree with that. As you well know, I've always baked, I've always cooked, I've always checked out bakeries, every city we've lived in, I've always looked at websites, trends. You've done the same in technology. I don't know if you ever will have a technology business, but keep those hobbies really alive. Make them a big part of your life, because you just never know when you might have the opportunity to...

Andrew (20:18) really alive. Make them a big part of your life because you just never know when you might have the opportunity to make that part of your career.

Jean (20:26) make that part of your career portfolio? So that's sort of my answer to that question.

Andrew (20:33) Great. And I promise I will move to describing Delisle, but maybe you could tell us just another question I hear a lot is the best thing you've enjoyed about the law firm, about the bakery, about being a psychotherapist. And now what about wealth management?

Jean (20:38) Mm

Well, the law firm, I love practicing law. Working in a law firm is just incredibly intellectually challenging. It's just, you know, our clients come to you for an answer and you do your research and look at the cases and there's an energy to that that's like nothing I've had, you know, in my subsequent careers. In the bakery, just learning about the food service business and what is involved and also

mentality of retail customers. Like I, you know, I've shared some of the stories with you. Like, it's very interesting how customers in retail are. That could be a whole other podcast. In psychotherapy, what I would say about that is, you know, it's just been so much more beneficial for me than my clients. And I think I'm quite a good therapist and I do think I help people.

Andrew (21:45) so much.

Kristen, I think I help people, but learning to become a psychotherapy, you really firstly have to learn about yourself and learn how to make space for people to share what is going on with them and to do it in a trusted space. Learning those skills is really unbelievably interesting and continues to...

Jean (21:54) But learning to become a psychotherapy, you really firstly have to learn about yourself and learn how to make space for people to share what is going on with them and to do it in a trusted space. Learning those skills is like really unbelievably interesting and continues to enjoy and entertain me as I entertain. That's the wrong word.

Andrew (22:17) Enjoy entertaining me as I entertain us the wrong word, but I continue to be fascinated by my therapy practice. what about wealth management? Delisle. Delisle.

Jean (22:22) I continue to be fascinated by my therapy practice.

Delilah, I thought you were referring to the bank. The bank, know, what I learned from that, and it would have been any business like that, again, I publicly traded business, you learn about sales. You know, whether I would have gone and worked at, you know, head office at McDonald's or head office of Reitman's or the bank, like, it's fascinating to learn the inner workings of a large company.

Andrew (22:46) Hmm

Jean (23:00) and how they really need to deliver results to their shareholders. And then Delisle, like it's early stages, super, super fun working with you at it. Scary as hell some days, but I think it's really needed in the Canadian marketplace. I know that it's really encouraging the success that we're having.

Andrew (23:05) And then Delio, like early stages, super, super fun working with you at it. Scary to tell some days, but I think it's really needed in the Canadian marketplace and I know that it's really encouraging the success that we're having. Yeah, and I often think with Delio, your comment when you joined the bank from law, that you had never thought about it before, but of course,

the bank is a sales organization. And I remember you saying that many times, like, wait a second, this is a sales organization. And I think that's been part of the motivation for us with Delisle. So maybe I'll start, I'd love for you to fill in some of the blanks on this one. But when I left BMO after 21 years, and it was a wonderful career.

Jean (23:36) Yeah, I never knew that before.

Andrew (24:01) But one of the things I'm sure people have already gotten a sense of is we're both passionate about work, that we love the variety and challenge of what we do. And, you know, we're both still quite young and so definitely not in a retirement window. And so immediately pivoted to what's next. And that weekend, actually my first weekend away from BMO after 21 years, I was attending a conference in the US.

with a, with a group of large independent firms, RIA firms they're called in the U S and. You know, really saw, an opportunity in, Canada, for something different as it relates to, wealth management. And it starts with understanding how different the markets are between Canada and the U S now. The clients are not particularly different clients that have accumulated wealth.

they typically have families they care about, they have a purpose in life. They want to do things. they're hiring an advisor to be a steward, to be a trusted guide, all of those things. Those aren't different between Canada and us. What's different is the distribution models. And so I'll start with the U S in the U S there's really three, places you would go for advice. There's the banks.

There's what is known as the wire houses in the US, which are effectively the brokerage firms. And there's this independent model called Registered Investment Advisor and the RIA model. There's about 17 ,000 of these firms in the US. It's the fastest growing part of the US wealth market. For a good reason, advisors have moved from the banks and wire houses very significantly to the independent channel.

with a view that they can better service their clients if they operate in a fiduciary model that puts clients interests always first, that is singularly focused on one business. Now, if I go to Canada, Canada is fascinating for a few reasons. One is the fact that the banks have been such impressive consolidators of businesses over the past 30 years.

Effectively, what's happened is if you go past 30 years, there were trust companies. The trust companies have effectively all been bought by the banks. There were brokerage firms. The brokerage firms have mostly been purchased by the banks and on and on. And so what you end up with is a significant concentration. Now, as a Canadian having vibrant banks that are profitable and doing well that

Frankly, there's probably not an investor in Canada, whether they're in a mutual fund or anything else that doesn't own a significant amount of the banks. The banks are hugely important. Or if you look left and right, chances are one of your neighbors works in a bank because they are the largest employers and they're about a quarter of the entire marketplace in Canada is the banks. Five banks, typically six if we include national.

That's got a lot of advantages. It also has disadvantages as it relates to our business. The high net worth business is typically what is known as a fiduciary business where the client's interests always come first. And as you so interestingly put it with your career journey, the banks are a for -profit business that has a collection of businesses, probably about 20 different types of businesses.

in personal banking and commercial banking and capital markets and wealth management and internationally, whether it's in the U .S. or many of the banks have global interests outside of the U .S. as well. So it's a broad, very complicated portfolio and it's a publicly traded company where every quarter matters. Every quarter matters around how you spend money, around your operating efficiency, around earnings momentum, around where you're making investments, et cetera, et cetera.

And so that is kind of part one of the observation that we had before forming Delisle. Part two, and I think perhaps more important than part one, is that the industry and the clients are changing so fast. The clients today, first of all, there's a lot more wealth in Canada than there's ever been. A lot of this is driven through demographics, the sale of businesses. There's a lot of businesses that are being sold.

creating significant wealth for families. There's a lot of different types of families and you know, certainly a topic Jean you and I talk about a lot relates to two women and the fact that women are controlling at least half of the wealth today. And if we go even just one generation prior, it was very male dominated both in terms of who worked in the industry and who was making the day to day decisions around.

investments and wealth. That's a very different context today. Same sex families, the fact that our children, adult children have very different expectations about their journeys, both in life as well as wealth and on and on and on. And so we formed Delisle with a view that what clients are looking for is not exclusively running money. It's not about outsmarting the market or

being so wise to own Scotia instead of Royal or to underweight banks and be overweight utilities. These are important things in terms of day -to -day management of wealth, but they're not the most important thing to the family. And that takes us to this intersection that you described earlier. One very clear trend we both observed in our wealth management careers is how important planning had become.

in terms of what clients are looking for beyond running money or a good tax plan. They were really looking for the broader plan. What do I want to accomplish? Am I going to be all right? Do I have enough money? I'm concerned about my children. I'm concerned about their attitudes about money. I don't have an estate plan. I don't have a plan for what to do with my money.

all of these complexities around planning have become more and more and more to the forefront. We have a very strong view that as an industry, we've still been anchored around money. And even with our planning, we're still very much focused on the actual money as opposed to the relational dynamics of families. And so what's so interesting with the work you do for Delisle,

is having a network of resources to help advisors and clients really understand what that intersection means. A perfect example is estate planning, an area that you have more expertise than anybody I know. And estate planning is not about drafting a will that is well documented and clearly understood.

It's about all the ripples of what that actually means and how to talk about these difficult topics and how to position yourself in a way that ultimately I'm assuming for most families or many families, one of the priorities would likely be harmony. I want my family to be close when I'm gone. And yet we see so often the opposite happens that the family becomes fractured because some of these relational issues were not explored. These are areas we're very passionate about at Delisle.

Jean (32:00) Mm

Andrew (32:06) I'm gonna close with a view of we take that independent channel where it's truly about clients first. It's about great stewardship of wealth, but it's so much more around understanding families, planning priorities, and having conversations that probably have not been had before.

Jean (32:24) Mm Yeah. I think our time is coming to a close here, but just to add on to that, what I would say is even the word planning is a little bit outdated these days because planning that word has become, you know, associated with financial planning and that great software, but it's still artificial intelligence. It's become associated with estate planning defined by, you know,

two documents, power of attorney and will, it's become associated with forecasting of cash flow, you know, until you live to age 99, like planning has become a pretty generic word. the way I like to look at it is it's more about the discussion. And I feel like that has been what's missing and through no fault of advisors themselves, the discussions.

are what is hard to have because they usually involve a family's stuck point or maybe more than one stuck point. For example, you know the fact of the second marriage of one of the spouses and whether that second spouse, that new spouse will get the estate or whether we'll go to the adult children or whether instead of dividing.

Andrew (33:36) Thank

stage or whether we'll go to the adult children or whether instead of dividing you know her statement to her son and her daughter as she's always done does she sudden does grandma suddenly want to divide it four ways so that the two grandchildren also get an equal share you know these sorts of things are the furthest thing from a technical issue or you know the label plan those things are about

Jean (33:48) you know, her estate into her son and her daughter as she's always done. Does she sudden does grandma suddenly want to divide it four ways so that the two grandchildren also get an equal share? You know, these sorts of things are the furthest thing from a technical issue or, you know, the label planning. Those things are about what people want to do that others don't like.

Andrew (34:10) what people want to do that others don't like. And that's not a financial discussion. That's not even an estate planning discussion. That's helping people think about whether they want to have that conversation while they're alive.

Jean (34:17) And that's not a financial discussion. That's not even an estate planning discussion. That's helping people think about whether they want to have that conversation while they're alive, whether they prefer not to, but they want to leave letters to be read with their will, or whether on reflection they simply want to do what they want to do and, you know, the family will figure it out after they're gone. But...

Andrew (34:32) they prefer not to, but they want to leave letters to be read with their will. Or whether on reflection, they simply want to do what they want to do and, you know, the family will figure it out after they're gone. But these sorts of thoughtful decisions that would really reduce the conflict before and after death are, I think, really important for advisors of today and tomorrow to have.

Jean (34:47) these sorts of thoughtful decisions that would really reduce the conflict before and after deaths are, I think, really important for advisors of today and tomorrow to have and to not be afraid of. So I think we're really on to something when we say that we really believe that wealth is not a number.

Andrew (35:03) and to not be afraid of. So I think we're really onto something when we say that we really believe that wealth is.

Jean (35:14) There are just so many people with a very big number that are not happy. you know, there's a way, and it's not rocket science, to help our advisors have these conversations. And there's just so many mental health resources now, coaching, therapy, psychometric tests, so many things that, with, you know, our knowledge under my leadership of this area of the firm,

Andrew (35:15) many people with a very big number that are not happy.

There's a way, and it's not rocket science to help our...

There's just so many mental health

psychometric tests, so many things that with our knowledge under my leadership of this area of the firm, we can really help find individuals and families navigate. And I think this is where I get so excited, Gene, that seeing you go through your training as a psychotherapist and learning, you use that phrase, how to create space so that people can actually

Jean (35:43) we can really help clients, individuals and families navigate.

Andrew (36:02) find, you know, the ability to articulate the things that they want to talk about. And, that doesn't come naturally to people, like me who have grown up as analysts, you know, I'm a CFA and it's about, preparing a plan, obviously having empathy, caring about clients, but those are skills the same way. I handle the portfolio management the same way. When we have a state planning complexity, we go to a great estate lawyer or a great tax lawyer for

tax guidance, these kinds of things, we really need to put the same gravitas to the skills of the people you're describing, which is, it's actually not up to me to become a psychotherapist. And sometimes, you know, people with good intentions say, well, I'm kind of a part -time therapist as an investment advisor. And the reality is that's a different skill set. And so having that skill set and capability in the firm,

is really different and really needed.

Jean (37:05) Yeah, the only thing that advisors really need to learn and with an open -mindedness, it's easy to learn these skills, is simply not to shut down the tiny windows of opportunity that clients bring to them with either the making of a joke or a reassuring, don't worry about that.

I'm sure your son will get a job soon and all will be well. You know, like, those are the two most prevalent ways to shut down a conversation by making light of it or by like being, you know, reassuring, which people just hear as, you don't want to hear any more about this problem that I'm having. And so...

Andrew (37:52) And I'd add a third one as well, which is avoidance. Many, many times I've seen advisors where afterwards they would say something along the lines of, there's clearly something not right between the couple, but I really don't want to go there. It's not my place to go there. Or I don't want to put my relationship at risk with either of them. Or they said something that clearly indicated there's something going on with one of the siblings.

These are the areas that I find people often avoid them because they say, I'm gonna stay in my lane and just not go there. And then it really is at the cost to the client, right, of not being helpful in areas that we might be able to add some value.

Jean (38:21) Right.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's just such, you know, very, simple techniques where, you know, you can ask for permission to explore something that you noticed. You know, I noticed this and I'm wondering if it might be okay to talk a little bit about that. And, you know, you hear no and you stop. But very often people really value being seen. They value the fact that you noticed that.

And, you know, they're very willing to talk about it further. And then suddenly you're into a really rich conversation that can help them with their planning, if we want to use that word. So that's a good way to end, I think. Is there anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up?

Andrew (39:19) Absolutely.

No, I enjoyed this. This was, this was a good start for sure.

Jean (39:34) Great. One of the things we'll talk about in an upcoming podcast is the role that we want to take being thought leaders in the space of boutique wealth management firms in Canada, given how very passionate we both are that this is a very much needed space in Canada. So we'll talk more about those requirements and just a whole bunch of other topics in the episodes ahead. So we very much would appreciate people following us.

wherever they get their podcasts and of course we also have social media accounts linked in Instagram and Facebook. So with that we will sign off for today.

Andrew (40:14) Great, thank you.