Charlotte Speak 00:12 Hello and welcome to Power of the Parent, the podcast. I'm your host, Charlotte Speak. I'm a Level 7 CMI accredited coach, a Strengthscope Master Practitioner, Mental Health First, aider and Talent Consultant. And I'm also the face behind Power of the Parent. In this podcast, I'll be speaking to parents in the workplace. Some of them are in traditionally employed roles, others are running their own businesses, and we're having conversations about life in general, insights about being a parent and having a career and exploring the strengths that parenting has awoken for people. We will talk about things like the value that they're bringing to the workplace, as well as my guests very generously sharing their personal stories and anecdotes about everything life can throw at us. Thank you so much for joining our conversation. Today, I am speaking with the one and only Lauren Currie, who is the founder of Upfront Global. The mission at Upfront and Lauren's own personal mission is all about changing confidence, not women, and is definitely something that I find myself quoting on multiple occasions, both in the workspace and personal life. I would describe Lauren as the queen of a reframe which I'm a big fan of, definitely not shy of wading into some of the perhaps trickier topics that we might call them, and a real movement maker. And I recently put up a post on Instagram to say that I would really love to talk to people who kind of don't see their version of either their family life or their parents in setup, or just their version of life basically represented because we are still incredibly blinkered and incredibly narrow in terms of what we see when we look around us. I was really excited when Lauren replied and said, Do you know what conversation I don't see much is women as the breadwinner. That is going to be the start of our conversation today. There's a lot of intersectionality that will go through this as well, but kind of basically women earning a nice wad of cash, probably the most uncorporate line that I would ever use to describe what we're going to delve into today. So thank you so much for joining me, Lauren. One of the start points for this conversation is often we know for well, there's that very unhelpful gender pay gap, and if we are for a second, if we were to talk about people in a heterosexual relationship, where there are two people that you are probably going to be more likely to be out earned by a male partner. But we know that that isn't the case in every single family. We know that not everybody's story and everybody's narrative, that there are examples out there where you're in a two person relationship and a male female relationship, and there are women who are learning more than their male counterparts. So I would really love to start with Have you specifically with the work that you do, have you come across any sort of themes or insights, why we don't see that talk about more, or why people aren't comfortable talking about it publicly? Lauren Currie 03:25 Yes, that's a great question. And thank you so much for having me. I think, like, where are the gaps, where are the blind spots, the pieces of the story that we're not getting to hear? And I think this is just a real, it's a really big, really messy, complex, nuanced, space that you and I are treading into together. And I think at the core, you know, the core question you're asking me is, why don't we talk about money? Why are women so reluctant to talk about money, to own their ambition, to develop money making skills to use their talent to build well. And, you know, I feel like there's definitely a PhD answer, and there are people writing books about it, for sure. But I always think, you know, if we, let's zoom out, you know, go back in history and think about money and finance as like money originated as a symbol for power. And from that very early moment, women were not allowed to have it, and we were told that we could not have it. It was totally inaccessible. And fast forward to today, actually, not that long ago. You know, are we taught that we can have it? Are we taught about money in schools? Do our parents talk to us about money while we're growing up? No, like in the main I think the answer to that is still no. And of course, you and I both know there's pockets of fantastic leaders and organisations and teams who are working to change that. But if we're looking at the mainstream picture. And we're still not talking about money around our dinner table. And I know that a big focus of your work is parenting, which is why I'm kind of drawn to that angle. And also because this stuff starts so early, you know, I think there's data that says by the time my girl's aged six or seven, she already has really fixed ideas about money. There's also data that shows boys get more pocket money than girls, like there's a pocket money gender pay gap. You know, this does start so young, and I think that's very intentional, right? We're in a system that's been intentionally designed to keep women away from money to keep women thinking that money is something that is not for them. It's not a face for them to learn and play and explore and build the way cooking is. So I think you know the short answer to your question is because it's taboo, and we are taught from a very early age that it's taboo, and of course, that taboo changes shape depending on where you live in the world, depending on cultural groups you belong to. But I know even from me, like I set up my first business straight after university. I was 23, now I'm 37 inspired by Cindy Gallup, who spoke at our Upfront and Centre conference, told us all to keep telling people our age all the time. So there's a way, a tip to Cindy, yeah, and I feel like it's probably only been the last three, four years that I've really sat and looked at my relationship with money. Can say aloud what my goal is, what I want to earn, among can talk in public spaces like this about the fact that I want to build wealth. I want to build a life that's very, very different from the life that me and my partner both had grown up, you know, and I had a great life growing up. That's, you know, not a dist in that way, but it's like, I want better and more, and that's taken a lot of work for me to be able to say that out loud and also get comfortable with the idea that I think women are told to that that's okay, and that, yeah, we should make money and say these things and have these conversations, but only up to a certain point. And when you cross that line, everybody will let you know, you know, it was fine. You were fine until this point now, you've crossed the line. Get back in your box a bit. Charlotte Speak 07:25 What an opener. When you were talking there about the pocket money, gender pay gap, it reminds me of something that I heard or kind of started to tune into, not that long after I'd set up Power of the Parent because I had been very aware of salary conversations when I was in the corporate world. I still remember the very first time that I asked for a pay rise, and I knew that I wasn't being paid particularly well. I knew in terms of peers, not necessarily at the time, because there were a lot of privileges afforded to me, but at the time, I wasn't really tuning into the gender side of things. I was probably 22 or 23 was quite naive to some of the realities facing people in the workplace, but like, fundamentally, for me, I didn't think I was being paid fairly, and I asked for this pay rise, and I'd got my script ready, and I'd worked everything through, and my line manager said, right, I'll need to come back to you, and he was a recent change of line manager. A couple of days later, he came back with this pay award letter, and I'd had a pay rise, but as he handed the pay letter over to me, said, That's not because you asked for it. That's because you've had a change of line manager. What they're even the payroll that I've asked for, I'm not allowed to take credit for the fact that I've indicated something that have I not. Lauren Currie 08:46 Don't feel proud of yourself. You've not got any autonomy. Charlotte Speak 08:51 Yeah, absolutely, like, we're gonna give you it, but just you hold your horses. Don't get cocky. But that wasn't the story that it was taking me to the story. It was taking me to what conversation I had with somebody a couple of years into running my business about the pay gap with self employed and freelancers, but there's a very wild gender pay gap there as well. And you kind of think we're setting our own rate. We're not going and asking somebody in a payroll team or an HR function to like fund me. That's what we can set ourselves, and we still under call it. And I would say over the last eighteen months, the most frequent question I have been asked by other business owners or coaches or consultants is, where do I start? How do I choose my rates? How do I set them? How do I talk about them? Should I talk about them? Should I wait until somebody really wants to work with me, and I have quite a straightforward approach. I don't have any sort of magic formulas in the background running or anything like that, but I know what I need to earn. I know what I want to earn. I know how I want to value my services, and I know the value that I add to the organisation. But it's almost like lots of mission seeking, and almost like a, Oh, this feels really uncomfortable to say this figure out loud, and you just think you're in the ultimate space where you can control what you're charging. And it still feels wild and really uncomfortable. Lauren Currie 10:13 Yeah, because there's so much fear when I listen to you telling those stories, I can just picture this like, you know, really like, that oppressive, you know, it's like, everybody's like, terrified walking through this space. And the stats that you shared about self employed people and freelancers are the same for entrepreneurs. They're the same for founders and business owners, even founders who have raised external capital. You know, we know that female founders pay themselves significantly less than male founders. It's the same patterns across the board, and I think we're probably aligned on that, that I have a really no nonsense, straightforward approach to that, which is, you make your prices as available and as accessible as possible. Like, if I want to hire somebody, I don't want to have to route through pages and read PDFs to find out how much it costs. Like, obviously, that's not possible with all businesses, but you know, for most it's like, this is the service. This is how much it costs. And to quote Cindy Gallup again, you know, I really take our advice to heart on, say, the highest number you can outline without laughing. And I do use that advice, and it does work. And I think if people are not saying no to you, people are not telling you that they can't afford your service, or actually this is out of budget, it means that you're pricing yourself too low. I think the radical piece, and it feels ridiculous to say it's radical, but it is actually just women having conversations like, I think I was probably 33 the first time I had a friend who said, This is what I earn here. And I remember it really clearly, Emma, if you're listening, high five because at the time, I was running my own business that was part of a collective and the model was, eat what you kill, if you like. So I would win the new business and decide what I get paid out of that. And I'd been in employment for that, and I think my monthly pay jumped three times, maybe four times. And so I was talking to her about it, and she was like, Yeah, this is what I get paid. And its men are just having these conversations much more openly and honestly. And I feel like women, maybe the time when you think shit I need to kind of get this information is when you're pregnant, or you're thinking about maternity leave, or you're trying to figure out, like, how that's going to work, and it shouldn't be then, you know, it should be as early as possible. And it's not only salaries, it's pensions. I mean, I'm not there yet. I feel like I'm there with earnings. I'm definitely not just like, you know, shooting the shit about pensions and stocks and stuff, purely because I don't retain that information. I don't spend enough time with it to retain it. And sometimes I get a bit because I want to be that person, like, that's the future me that I can see as a person who does retain that. And it's like, this is a fun thing to like, bounce and chat about, but I still have that probably quite stereotypical. Don't want to talk about numbers, don't want to look at spreadsheets. For me, that was also reinforced by going to art school, so that my university degree was at an art school. And like now in this it's absolutely bonkers that they just never ever talk about money. And it's like all these incredible artists, jewellers, textile artists, makers, like, they have their final show. People are like, Oh, how much is this? And they're like, never thought about it before. Like, I hope that's changed now, obviously, that was a wee while ago now, but it was just never part of the narrative, and even wanting what, you know, the narrative was real artists, real creatives don't need money. Don't want money. You know, that's kind of the poor coat who's a troubled genius, whose work will make money when I've been dead for 100 years. So, yeah, I also have to, like, work hard to remind myself. I need to keep reminding myself that that reaction is learned, not innate. It's not like, Oh, my brain just doesn't like numbers, you know, I think you see these like, Oh, I just, it's like a personality trait. Like, it's not, it's a learned Sure, you can have preferences and, like, learning style, but I think the story we tell ourselves is so very powerful. And if you've been telling yourself you're not a money person, you're not a numbers person for 30 odd years like that's going to take a lot of new neural pathway building. Yeah, Charlotte Speak 14:45 I've caught myself recently having to, well, not unpick, almost feeling like I had a decision point to make because I have had an incident with a corporate client where the processes that they would usually raise a purchase order. I'd get that purchase order number, it would go on the invoice. I'd send the invoice, and it was for a piece of work. The main body of the work was sorted. It had been paid, but we'd had to add on a couple of psychometric reports, basically. So they had an additional 140 odd quid that they needed to pay, and that was in January, and this is now the middle of June, and I still don't have the PO number, so therefore, I haven't even been able to submit the invoice. Obviously, not for lack of chasing and trying. I would say probably 10 days ago, I was at the point where I was like, I'm just going to write this off. This is like, I can. It's because it's doing more to me and winding me up more than it is getting the PO for it, which I know that's not always an option for people, and it's still hung out. I don't want to do that financially, but I kind of was having to weigh up, you know, what's the right thing for me here? And I caught myself doing that. And I think in some instances, maybe I would have made the decision to just go, do you know what? Forget it. I'm never going to work with them again anyway. And I've done a complete flip around. I got no hang on a minute. It doesn't matter if it's 147 pounds or 147,000 pounds. That is my money that I'm out of pocket for, and you have had a service for me that you need to pay for. But I did. I heard that narrative in my head of like, just forget it. It just doesn't matter. And it wasn't necessarily an extreme narrative. It's so small it doesn't matter. Kind of thing it was more. Do you realise how much this is worrying in your head? But I just kept going back to, I haven't done anything wrong. The reason it's whirring in my head is because it's gone on for such a long time because you've been let down by somebody that you have trust and faith in to pay you for your services. So I have actually ended up, I've emailed the CEO and the CFO, who I've never met before in my life, but I've emailed them and I've said, you know, this is the impact that it's had on me, and you really need to help this out. But even then, like I over thought what I was writing, I had a friend who very kindly offered to read what I was sending to them, and it just shouldn't have to get to things like that. Just pay your people that you've had, there has been an exchange here, and the impact, the impact is completely disproportionate on like, what's been going through my head, and the fact that, you know, you just need to pay for something that you've had, you wouldn't go into a supermarket, take a load of stuff, and then maybe they would, I don't know. I don't think they'd go into a supermarket, play on some shelves, and then go, Yeah, I'll pay you in six to eight months for that. It's just not okay. Lauren Currie 17:46 It's not okay. And I think especially in big corporates, there's a really big trend of them just fucking small businesses over to be honest. It's something that I hear a lot of, but I think I don't know, I do really empathise with you know, you're, you're a tiny team. You're wearing a million hats, and this thing's just like a gremlin, putting you in a bad mood, annoying you, you're getting cross. It's also taking up time and energy. I had a similar thing. I can't remember what it was I bought or spent money on. I think it was a similar amount. Can have two, 300 pounds, and it was, I can't even remember what it was anyway, I was annoyed at myself for spending it and didn't get what I'd hoped for. And was kind of going around the houses. And a mentor of mine, James Routledge, said to me, You know what the stage your business is at and where your numbers are at. If it's less than 500 pounds, it doesn't matter. Let it go and move on, because the biggest asset to your business right now is your energy, and you're getting yourself annoyed and gross and negative about this 200 pounds, which really in the bigger picture doesn't matter. I could also see what you're saying of like, of course, there's a bigger moral issue here. Of like, this company needs to know, and you want to because of the principle of the thing you like, dig your heels in. But also, it's not worth causing more damage to your business because of the mindset it's putting you in. So I wouldn't beat yourself up, or, you know, you've sent this letter to the CEO CFO, maybe in your mind it's like, that's the line. Now, if that doesn't bring the PO, then put it to bed. Charlotte Speak 19:29 Yeah, it's so hard to know what to do, because you're, you're tussling with what's making my decision for me here, and it is the principle side of it. And I get incredibly principled about stuff like that. I think one of the things that I tune into a lot when I'm speaking with either clients or with people like I mentioned before, who might be asking my advice, who are just perhaps at the beginning of their business journey, is kind of owning your story. I have a friend who I won't name because I haven't asked permission to, but I know that she's kind of reached a certain financial level in her business, and the impact of that has actually been perhaps not what she's expected. She's almost gone into a panic of, well, how do I keep that up? And what does that mean, rather than probably enjoying that milestone, and what that's brought for her, she actually had a different kind of consequence. So do you have any sort of practical ideas for people you know, assuming that we can get ourselves up this earnings ladder or squiggle, whatever we want to call it, what are some of the things that are kind of practical ideas that we might be able to help ourselves with owning that story when it does happen? Lauren Currie 20:39 So I think I can definitely relate to that sense of, like, achieving a big milestone and then experiencing the consequences of that and feeling incredibly uncomfortable. So rather than feeling proud and excited, you're like, What am I doing? So you know, for me, I think two years ago now, because I went full time upfront, three years ago, and so we went from zero to a million revenue in 23 months, no funding, no grants, just through our products. And that, for me, was like, huge, massive. It also revealed to me how the majority of people don't understand the difference. Double down on that, that doesn't mean there's a million pounds in my bank. It means that a million pounds went through my business. A huge amount of that goes to paying staff and delivering the services and all that stuff. But it was a huge milestone to celebrate, and part of how I did that was I went on a trip on my own instead in a really luxury hotel in Lisbon, and I basically spent the whole time on the phone to my friends, feeling anxious and weird, on the phone to my coach. And I ended up writing about it, and recorded a podcast about it, and it kind of became like a project in itself, of like, why does this feel so uncomfortable? Like, what is it about and I think the best advice that my coach gave me was this idea of embracing both. And so it's like, Yes, I am staying in a hotel that costs more per night than what I used to pay for a whole month's rent. And that's exciting and wonderful, but also really new, and is making me feel uncomfortable, for example. So it's like, yes, I've achieved this milestone I'm really proud of, and some people are reacting badly to it, because we are not used to seeing women talk about money like, yes, you know. And just being able to think about it that way helped me. I think just realising it's not a cost, but it's a consequence of when you are trying to do thing, when you are aiming really big, and you're trying to do things that you know none of your friends have done, necessarily, or people in your family have done you didn't grow up watching your mum and dad do these things. Like, when you do those things, it can be quite lonely. It can be quite isolating, because essentially, you're making a new pattern, and you're writing a new story, and that feels important and fulfilling, and makes me feel proud, but at the same time, it's uncomfortable, a bit lonely, uncertain, and it's like being able to hold both those ideas at the same time, rather than going into with a vision of when I get over there, it's all going to feel better, or I'm going to feel more comfortable. Charlotte Speak 23:44 I think it resonates with me on a few different levels, because that whole idea that two things can be true at the same time, that seemingly look, you know, the opposite of each other, is definitely something that I see and feel and have to support myself through, but also have to kind of coach others through as well, because that can feel really quite discombobulating. I really love that phrase that you've shared there, career coach and getting our heads around that. I think it is even just saying some of it out loud, that it isn't just keeping it in your head, but actually verbalising it, even if it to yourself. Or I have worked with a lady who she loves to voice note herself so she'd be going through something, and I would often ask her, you know, what would you say to a friend if you heard a friend saying that? And she said I just can't get myself in that headspace, because I know that I wouldn't. I'd be really kind to them. I'd say, loads of compassion, but I can't do the same for myself. I was like, well, record yourself then, and listen back to it instead, so that you hear yourself, you know, a bit of an outer body thing. And that was then something that clicked a lot for her, because I can hear my words that I can't hear it when it's in my head, but when I can hear it out loud, that really helped. Lauren Currie 25:01 I saw a really nice,,, it was Jane Hardy who founded the black Foundation. She wrote a piece about recording your own positive affirmations. And I remember seeing it thinking, I so want to do that, because I do think there's something really can affect you in the stomach when it's your own voice and it's also your own words in your own language, because when you get out of the funk or the stuck meh, you know exactly what you needed somebody to say to you, because you know exactly what the nasty voice is saying. So you can take that nasty voice and flip it on its head precisely word for word. And me and my friends had grand visions of, we were going to do it for each other as part of our kind of New Year ritual, and listen to them over in the year. Have not done it yet, but I think it's a really nice idea. Charlotte Speak 25:47 Well, we're only halfway through the year. You've still got a good six months. So yes, told you all queen of the reframe. So I know that you've got Bond 8 coming up in September. Are you expecting to hear some of this conversation with the next bonders? Do you think Lauren Currie 26:08 Yes, so this stuff, you know, money comes up in every single Bond and it's something that we had a keynote speaker talk about it at the conference. Kaya Commodore was fantastic. She's the host of the Pennies to Pound podcast. So she spoke at the conference about money mindset, also specifically about pensions. And you know, you could see the smoke coming off over these pens, you know, just like, really practical. Like, I need to sort this pension right now, because it really matters. And yeah so Bond 8 starts on the 9th September, and Bond 7 was last summer. We had over 2000 women from 20 time zones. So it is a very diverse group in every sense. So we are encouraging women no matter what sector you work in, no matter where you're based in the world, no matter your level of seniority, if you want to learn how to activate your own confidence, activate the confidence of the women around you, work on your leadership, build community, then the upfront bond is the place for you and we have in bank account. I think the average salary increase for a bonder is 49% so it really works. Charlotte Speak 27:24 Wow. So if you are tuning into this and thinking, I need a bit of Lauren and the upfront community, it sounds like there's no time like the present to get signed up. Where else can people come and find out about you and your work? Lauren Currie 27:38 So I'm on all the internet, places, Instagram, LinkedIn, I write on those platforms and show up on those platforms most days to talk about themes around leadership or entrepreneurship, confidence, money. I also have a weekly newsletter where I send 10 links that I believe you'll enjoy every Thursday. And we have a podcast which you can listen to where you get your podcast, the upfront moment. So yeah, we'd really love to hear from your listeners. If you're curious about the bond, go to we are upfront.com , see the curriculum, read the testimonials, get a sense of how the six weeks works, how you can sign up, and the results that you can expect. Charlotte Speak 28:19 Amazing! It sounds absolutely fantastic. And I'm excited for the people that get to come and experience it with you, because, yeah, there's a lot of people that I can refer on. Lauren Currie 28:31 I think I should say it's also free if you're on maternity leave, and it's free if you've been made redundant in the last 12 months. Charlotte Speak 28:37 Well, and I think we probably all know a few people that fit into one or both of those categories at the same time. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me, Lauren. It made me feel very reflective about some of the things I probably need to unpick still, and that I definitely feel that we can all take something away, regardless of what our employment setup looks like, or even if you are looking for a job right now, taking some of these sort into that job hunt side of things, I think, incredibly important as well. So I will share all of the links that you've mentioned there so people can find you easily. But thank you so much for chatting with me today. Lauren Currie 29:17 Of course, thank you for having me. Charlotte Speak 29:20 Thanks very much for tuning in to Power of the Parent, the podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please rate the review and subscribe, and if you could tell all your friends about the podcast, that would be wonderful. If you'd like to get in touch, you can find me on Instagram, just search Power of the Parent. See you next time.
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