PB-E21 DISCUSS 071624 ===

Paul Adelstein: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the show, everyone. This is Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. I am Paul.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I'm Sarah. Um, and today's insane nail biter of a cliff hanging adrenaline rush is titled simply Go, uh, possibly because that's what we were all shouting at the screen as we watched it. Um, and it was also written by today's guest, uh, Paul, do you want to tell the people who we're going to talk with today?

Paul Adelstein: We get to talk to Mr. Matt Olmstead, who is an extraordinary writer who became the show runner from seasons two to four. We're going to skip a bunch of our banter today because we have so much, we've been for since season, episode one, basically, we've been saying we need to ask Olmsted about that. We need to ask Olmsted about that.

Paul Adelstein: And now we finally have him. So let's just get right into the Kallistein Index and we'll get all the Olmsted [00:01:00] time we can.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Outstanding. Um, okay. Kallistein Index Go premiered on May 8th. 2006, putting it, I believe, in May Sweep's territory, we can talk about what that was later. Um, it was written, as we mentioned, by the great Matt Olmsted, directed by Dean White.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It drew 9. 13 million viewers. Um, and before you think you know the competition in the time slot by now, um, also in our Monday at 8 p. m. slot this week was David Blaine Drowned Alive on Wednesday. Wow. How about that? Something different. Um, probably better than Wife Swap, Drowned Alive, the crossover that theoretically nobody wants to see.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And then of course, also, uh, on CBS was King of Queens and Deal or No Deal on NBC.

Paul Adelstein: The recap of the episode reads, Michael forces Pope to transfer Lincoln to the infirmary and then lock, then locks Pope in the closet. The team secures Belloq and Michael puts on Belloq's uniform. The others wear bleached white clothes so they can get into the psych ward.

Paul Adelstein: And Haywire joins the escape. [00:02:00] And we discover Sarah left the infirmary door unlocked. She did it. Westmoreland, sadly, dies in escape, first telling Michael to find the five, not one million dollars, on the outside. The other escapees overhear, but not all of them manage to get out of Fox River. Nick Zavarin releases Veronica, and Brucci's thugs kill him.

Paul Adelstein: The company plans to kill Vice President Reynolds, and Pope is found at last, and triggers the alarm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Basically, everybody dies. Um, some other things happening in the world in pop culture around this time of May 8th, 2006. On May 9th, uh, it was the finale of the very first season of The Real Housewives of Orange County.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And the success of that season led to a massive franchise of Real Housewives spinoffs, not one of which I've ever seen, unfortunately. Maybe fortunately. Um, May 6th was the 132nd running of the Kentucky Derby. won by the undefeated cult Barbaro. The dramatic victory [00:03:00] was later marred by a career ending injury, becoming a tale of triumph and tragedy, much like this episode on May 5th, Mission Impossible 3 hit theaters.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Directed by J. J. Abrams, starring Tom Cruise and the late, great Philip Seymour Hoffman, who, uh, coincidentally, Paul and I both decided last week would be on our dream list of actors living or dead to work with. That film made 4. 7, no, 47. 7 million dollars on opening day.

Paul Adelstein: And I would argue it's still, even though I love all those movies, the best one.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. On May 2nd. Can't beat Phil Hoffman. Yeah, no, as a, as a villain. On May 2nd, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that Anna Nicole Smith could continue her fight to claim a large part of her late husband's vast business holdings, estimated to be worth 1. 6 billion. That story again, the U. S. Supreme Court ruled on a case involving Anna Nicole Smith's love life.

Paul Adelstein: And in even weirder news, on May 4th, U. S. Representative Patrick J. Kennedy said he was under the influence of medication when he crashed his Mustang convertible [00:04:00] into a traffic barrier two blocks from the Capitol Building in Washington, D. C., which, yes, is one of the opening scenes of, I think, the West Wing pilot, as a matter of fact.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah, the Sorkin pilot. Um, and with that, uh, here are the highlights from our watch party, which, of course, you can access by subscribing on Patreon on our show page wherever you're listening right now. Ready? Let's go. Let's go. Get it? Aha, yes. You see what I did there? Yeah, this is why I don't write comedy.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Many of the things that we put up are put up with duct tape. I apologize for thinking that was a gaffe. The gaffe, as it turns out, is mine. This is a shot of just like every butt in our cast. That's beautiful. And that's just me trying to stay warm and stay alive there. That's not acting, that's just, that actually might have even been before they called action.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think this is probably a decision to save a brilliant actor and make sure that he comes back for next season, which is, I'm grateful for. [00:05:00] I wonder if there was a conversation about keeping them in prison for season two. I love the moment. during this escape where they all go, Oh my God, this guy is certifiable and because he's crazy like a Fox River, right?

Paul Adelstein: There's a lot to talk about there. We'll be right back with writer and showrunner metals and folks.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Welcome back everyone. Our guest today has been writing for television for 250 years. Um, that's an exaggeration, but he has been on massive franchises like the law and order universe, the Chicago med PD fire justice universe. He's created shows like Breakout Kings and Blind Justice. He wrote 13 episodes of Prison Break and 35 episodes of one of my all time favorite shows NYPD Blue.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Matt Olmstead, welcome.

Paul Adelstein: Great to be here. Thank you. Hi, Matt. Good to see you. And you as well. It's very exciting for us. Um, [00:06:00] we, uh, are ostensibly here to talk about episode 21, Go, which you wrote, but also as you were overseeing the room, uh, From then into perpetuity, we have so much stuff that we want to, uh, talk to you about.

Paul Adelstein: So we're going to try to stay on topic, but I imagine this is going to be a wide ranging and circuitous discussion, which we're excited about.

Matt Olmstead: Well, I can tell you off the top that it's one of my favorite memories of all time, working wise. And I know you guys were in the production side, actor side, we were in the writers room.

Matt Olmstead: And it was just the best writers room, best talent, they've all gone on to do great things. Um, it was a very, very special place in my heart, Prison Break, for sure. The whole experience. That's great. Karen Usher said

Sarah Wayne Callies: the same thing.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Yeah. We had Karen on as a guest. She was our first writer guest. And she was saying what a special group it was.

Paul Adelstein: And, you know, I think one of the things. Um, that is testament to that is so many of, so many writers made it through the entire run of that show. [00:07:00] That's pretty rare that a writer's room had such little turnover in four seasons, right? I mean.

Matt Olmstead: Yeah, I think we maybe lost a couple and brought in two or three.

Matt Olmstead: We promoted two writers within, uh, who are assistants. Mm hmm. Seth Oppman. Mm

Paul Adelstein: hmm.

Matt Olmstead: Um, Clint Vazquez. Mm hmm. Yeah. A very, very tight group. Um, but like, just heavy hitters that we just don't know when you staff a show, who's gonna I've been on shows where, you It's kind of a bloodbath by the end of the first season, unfortunately.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sorry, how did you come to the show? How did you start with us?

Matt Olmstead: I'd come off of NYPD Blue. I'd been there for seven years and did a couple pilots with Steve Mboczko, so I was kind of a free agent and I took some meetings and saw the pilot, we liked it, met with Paul Shearing, who created it. And Don Perise, who would later become my wife, Dawn Olmsted, and she was, uh, from the, the very beginning.

Matt Olmstead: So I came on after the [00:08:00] pilot was shot. And Paul Schuring didn't have any television experience. Not that maybe he needed, back then it was really important. And so they wanted to kind of bring in some experienced television people. Um, so I came in and a guy named Mike Pavone also came in as VP, kind of co showrunners.

Paul Adelstein: We were,

Matt Olmstead: um, sorry, go ahead. No, that's, and that, and then when, as you know, it's hectic making a pilot, but once the pilots picked up the series, it's, it resembles squid game a little bit in terms of

Sarah Wayne Callies: how

Matt Olmstead: many people are weighing in, people are flying out in, you have to survive it, you have to negotiate it.

Matt Olmstead: You have to always, and then we got to a point where the material came at the right time that they liked, and then everything kind of calmed down, but it was pretty hectic early when I.

Paul Adelstein: We were talking, um, about, you know, how, especially in those days, a pilot, [00:09:00] um, had huge budgets, Brett Ratner, big DP, and that the second episode, then, is trying to meet that level for a third of the price in a third of the time, usually.

Paul Adelstein: Right. And we talked about that on a production level and a directorial level, but, um, in a storytelling way. You are tasked with a similar challenge. I know, um, Michael Kudlitz was telling us, who played C. O. Bob, we had him on that originally this was a, when Schering wrote it, that there was a six episode stand alone for Fox that they then decided to turn into an entire series.

Paul Adelstein: Do you remember that piece of material and saying, oh, okay, well, this is, this is 12 episodes. We can, we can expand this into, we can, or we can take it to 22. It was one of the questions we had for Karen. How much of this stuff was planted in the pilot, how [00:10:00] much of it was, okay, Matt Olmstead comes in, it's like, here's what we have in the pilot, how are we going to unwind this into 22?

Paul Adelstein: Let alone two seasons, four seasons. Yeah.

Matt Olmstead: So I was brought in when they were, they wanted 22 out of it. And, um, I remember when I met with Paul Schering, he was, his pitch was, the first season is the first half of The Great Escape, and the second season is the second half of The Great Escape. Which we kind of held true to.

Matt Olmstead: Yeah. But beyond that, in terms of the moves, he had a couple ideas of, like, the, the Alan Rensch move on the toilet early on and a couple other things. But literally, once the staff was assembled and were there, it's kind of like, what are we going to do?

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Matt Olmstead: Um, but I always look back on that show, and on our side, the creative side, it succeeded because of the staff.

Paul Adelstein: And

Matt Olmstead: I've been on shows subsequently that are more, um, [00:11:00] stand alone episodes. And so you have a little bit of a writer's room where people peel off and do their own thing, and you can kind of move things around. But that show was so dense, and we were just chewing through story. That we all had to be in the same room.

Matt Olmstead: So we're in the same room, you know, 10 o'clock to 6 o'clock. And just because of the sensibilities and the talent of all these people, who, as you point out, were there for most, uh, for the run, four year run. Um, that's where we got all the material from. There's no way that show succeeds if we had a different staff.

Matt Olmstead: There's no way.

Paul Adelstein: Um, speaking of the density of storytelling, Um, which is kind of, uh, much more common now, frankly. I mean, the number of twists and turns per act, it seems like there's four episodes in one. Was that The pilot doesn't quite feel that way. The pilot [00:12:00] has more of a

Paul Adelstein: I mean, obviously it must have been a conscious decision, but where did that intensity come from? Where did the, we're going to, we're going to crank this thing up to 11 and keep it there constantly. When did, was that from the get go? Was that a group discussion? Where did that come from?

Matt Olmstead: Yeah. It's funny.

Matt Olmstead: For me, there was. Initially there were the first kind of three episodes that were written and turned in maybe on the outline stage and the studio network who were both super supportive of the show and were for the whole duration of the show and sometimes find that but they were on it and this is the squid game part I'm talking about where it was this is getting tossed this is getting tossed You I think it was Dana Walden, who was at the time the head of 20th, who's now owner, who was like, well, shouldn't there be a riot up here?

Matt Olmstead: And so they were pushing for higher stakes stuff.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So we

Matt Olmstead: had those [00:13:00] notes that we knew we had to absorb and kind of execute. But also each writer was assigned a script early on in the first roster. So it was one through six or seven was each writer. And so each writer going into it, just out of their own pride and competitive spirit was like, I have to bring it.

Matt Olmstead: Uh, and I just have to show everybody that I'm, I, I have what it takes and I'm going I'm here to play. And so you saw these scripts coming in early that were just crazy. And then that kind of like launched us and then we're like, well, we can't dip below that bar that we've set. But Courtney was trying to like, in the room, you're supporting each other when you're writing by yourself, you're trying to show that I'm the best and everyone should have that attitude.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And then what happens when that script lands on the production side and someone goes, sorry, so we're going to riot, we're going to cut a guy's toe off, we're going to, like, was there, was there a moment where you guys would deliver these insane scripts that were so amazing and the directors would be [00:14:00] like.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm super sorry, just checking in. Eight days? Yeah, right, right. Eight days? Absolutely. Because Watkins was very, in the beginning, I remember Watkins being very game for that kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, he sort of still had that, like, I'm still in a combat situation serving overseas mentality.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And then there was a bit of a pivot, which was interesting, when Hooks came in, because Hooks is stoned. Like, I have never seen him. Rush, raise his voice, get upset. He is absolutely like, hey guys, we're going to do this. It's going to be great. And they were very different leadership styles. But I wonder, was it partly a response to just one of the most ambitious shows on television at the time?

Matt Olmstead: Yeah, I think it was. And in that mix, the whole time you had Gary Brown, who was the library, he was really our go to guy who was as ambitious as we were. And he was able to make all this stuff down and he really had, it was boots on the ground, obviously in Chicago and knew a lot of people and he [00:15:00] can move things around.

Matt Olmstead: So there were a couple of things that were pushed back or can we redo this? Um, but I will say at the risk of sounding immodest, that's one of the things that I brought when I came in. There were some longer scripts and there were some, helping to kind of like make this manageable and producible.

Paul Adelstein: Because

Matt Olmstead: if you're not doing that, if you're turning in material late, as you guys know, then you're just inviting people to come in to try and fix it for you.

Matt Olmstead: That's when it turns into a jumble.

Sarah Wayne Callies: By the way, very small detail, I just happen to have, we're going to talk about this in a second. This is my script from Go.

Matt Olmstead: Oh my gosh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, the production draft was dropped February 14th, 2006. We're recording this together right now, February 15th. This blue draft dropped February 16th, 2006.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was just a weird little, like, here we are exactly 18 years later having this conversation.

Paul Adelstein: Um, did you come to Chicago for, I don't remember, I frankly don't remember [00:16:00] meeting you until season two, but did you come, I didn't anyway, did you come for this? Were you still in the room? How did that go? I

Matt Olmstead: teamed up a few times.

Matt Olmstead: There was a personnel change in production that didn't go over well with some actors that So I was kind of looked at as the kind of the little bit of the heavy, little bit of the hatchet man, um, and people who aren't here to give their side of the story. So don't need to mention names, but there was some turnover as there was on our side, creatively in LA.

Matt Olmstead: And so I deal with that a little bit. Uh, so that was tough to do. It's never fun to do, but then again, so I had to kind of negotiate that, but also be present and not kind of flee from it. Um, but I was out there a lot. I was out there a lot. And that's one of the great memories about that show was how beautiful, ironically, Joliet Prison was to film in and be in.

Matt Olmstead: Knowing that Statesville Prison, the new kind of pod prison that they built, the modern version of it. And I've been there [00:17:00] before where you, I've like toured, um, police precincts that are no longer being used because they built a modern one. You go in and see if you can film it. And people, and I probably do the same thing, but these, like, if you're making an hourly wage, you work for the government, whatever it is, when it's over, you just grab your lunch box and walk out.

Matt Olmstead: Everything's still here. Yep. So all those mug shots were still there. All these little remnants of these lives. And plus the fact that it was built. By prisoners, however many hundred years ago, in limestone quarry from nearby.

Sarah Wayne Callies: 1860s, yeah.

Matt Olmstead: It was, you guys spent more time than I did, but it was a beautiful, strangely enough, prison, like when the snow would come, or even like in the summer.

Matt Olmstead: So that's also part of my memories when I go to Joliet. It's like a very special place to film.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So many people. It's so specific.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, and so many of the actors, uh, and directors that we've talked to, talked about just the challenges but benefits of actually using that physical space to shoot it. [00:18:00] Before the stages were built, shooting in the yard and shooting, you know, for a lot of, uh, portion of season one, using the actual cells, using that, using that block.

Paul Adelstein: And, you know, those places have a spirit to them. It definitely seeps into that show.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I remember walking into a cell block and there was In the mesh, when we built our beds, they were slightly different, but the real ones had like a mesh that the mattress sat on. And people would put photographs of loved ones under that mattress so that they were looking up at them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And some of them still had them. And I, you know, it immediately makes everything very tangible and very, you know. Personable. And something else that we've talked about a lot is the extent that Fox kind of let us get away, by us I mean you, with a certain level of, hey, this is the death penalty. And there were, I mean, there are references to God and Christ and [00:19:00] Men of the Cloth and I'm pretty sure Paul shoots a bishop in the first, like, two episodes of the pilot.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But I was sort of surprised, because I would have thought that those things, I feel like if you were pitching a show today that was like, we've got a guy on death row who's wrongfully accused, and at some point we're going to strap him to an electric chair and everyone's going to hate that. There would be a lot of nerves about politically what that could mean.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Were you guys ever given any kind of pushback or guidance or?

Matt Olmstead: No. And, and that was Shurim's thing, he liked the kind of, the religious, um, the theme of it all that ran through it. But I, I watched the first half of the, of the first season probably a couple years ago with my daughter when she was old to watch it.

Matt Olmstead: And it's one of those things you're watching, there's no way you could shoot this stuff now. I mean, beyond like, it's kind of, there was some bold storytelling. But also like through teabags, some of the racial stuff and some of the kind of innuendo stuff and it [00:20:00] was, it went unchecked because once that show launched and it really hadn't been like a successful serialized drama since kind of Lost, I think, and a lot of people have tried prior to that and Sense is very tough to pull off, but they had a hit and they liked the material and they really let us do our thing, but we would be in the room like there's no way it.

Matt Olmstead: I mean, light up

Sarah Wayne Callies: that leather donut.

Matt Olmstead: There you go. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Made it on network television. It's almost like we were doing it so early that we sort of got in before they locked things down.

Paul Adelstein: So cool. In terms of the storytelling, you're talking about writers going off and writing their scripts and upping their game.

Paul Adelstein: Um, in terms of, let's say, uh, arcing out the whole season, when you guys are, you guys are staying, you're laying track as the train is coming onto the track, pretty much, in Network, when you're doing 22 episodes. How much of the reversals, twists and turns, [00:21:00] did you, uh, spend, did you have figured out before you actually like went to script for episode 2, 3, 4?

Paul Adelstein: Because there's, for instance, back half of the season, but did you know Abruzzi was going to come back after his throat got slit? Or was that a kind of audible, uh, this is really playing, we really love writing for this guy, let's figure out a way to get him back in. There's so many things. You're, you're like, Oh, I wonder if this was planted in episode four because it came back in episode 18 or whether they figured out in episode 12, Hey, what if we went back to this thing?

Matt Olmstead: We didn't plan a lot of that out. And again, kind of chewing through story, you would look back on and we realized the show is somewhat heightened. So there's certain certain balances. The original quote unquote death of Sarah Tancredi wasn't a real death of Sarah Tancredi because she came back. And did we know Like

Sarah Wayne Callies: the first two, actually.

Matt Olmstead: Yes, I [00:22:00] do remember. There's a couple. Yeah, there were a couple. Um, but we would just kind of on the fly. Now it wasn't like we were only writing and hurrying getting pages together to the set and we were like a day in front of it all. We really had a board and we beated the stuff out. Um, so, but we would, we would like, what do we have, what, what seeds have we planted, what fuses have we lit, and intentionally that we can revisit, including the late, great Zac Estrin, when he, you were talking about season three, he's like, it's prison break, you feel like, you want to get him back in prison, and we did the Panamanian, you know.

Matt Olmstead: kind of pivot, which worked for us creatively. Um, so it was, it was, it's definitely running and gunning, but running and gunning, giving yourself a month, two months, the complete fire drill. A kind of responsible running and gunning.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Was it? I mean, because for what [00:23:00] it's worth, I have no memories of ever going, Oh my God, you guys were shooting tomorrow.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We don't have a script. Oh

Paul Adelstein: no, never.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's to your credit because there are a lot of shows, especially back then that kind of worked that way. You know, there are shows where. People were learning their lines in the makeup trailer because things came in hot off the presses and, um, we rely, I mean, look, the fact that I've got a revised full blue that's got my shooting notes in it means that we weren't shooting triple canary insane revisions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, but given that, one of the things that we've taught, you know, we had Silas on, who's phenomenal. And he was like, I auditioned for a two episode arc. And then I got to play all the way through, like what were the surprises as you guys got dailies and cuts going? Oh, we got to get more, you know, like, we can't kill a brood.

Sarah Wayne Callies: See, he's amazing. Like, we're there because it felt sometimes like a conversation between production and the writer's room. And you guys would see what we did with what you gave us.

Matt Olmstead: That's right. Actors, as you know, [00:24:00] make their own work. Or they, they hit in the ass their way off of a job, which is a fact.

Matt Olmstead: Again, no one's here to defend themselves, but there were characters or actors who were A little unhappy and made it known and they're, those characters may be, it's a prison show. Anybody can, and they did not be petulant about it or have retribution. You're just kind of like, I'm just kind of weighing what's worth it for me.

Matt Olmstead: And what's worth it for us as a staff. Um, but we always had that available to us, but then as you mentioned Silas, he was in there or even like the tweener character. It just kind of worked. And so there's plenty of track here going ahead. We've, we were going to take it as long as we could. It's funny when people look at the seasons and some people might think that maybe season four was lacking or whatever it was.

Matt Olmstead: When they ask me about it, I'm like, I was going to work on that show with my friends in the writer's room for as long as [00:25:00] they, when you Like, hey, do you want to do a two episode special final break? Yes, of course. Does that mean we can be in the blooper? Whatever you guys want. Um, but it was always a pleasant surprise to see a character on that show or any other show who really brings it and it's just the right actor at the right time with the right role and then they just make their own, their own path.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So speaking of, just picking up on something you just mentioned, came back as did Paul for season five. Without you, where were you? We missed you. Missed you. And I mean, again, you know, I like the way you put this not to say anything about, you know, people who aren't there to defend themselves. But I remember getting a script early on and it said, Sarah and Jacob sit down and have a glass of wine.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I was like, okay, so just checking, is this the beginning of a a relapse or, and they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, good point. And [00:26:00] changed it. And I was like, oh man, I would really love to have our original. writers here because there is this sense that we very much co created this story. And I'm, I apologize if that feels like I'm taking more, uh, credit than deserved, but it felt to me like we, like there was a sort of partnership between, you know, what you guys were doing and what we were trying to translate.

Sarah Wayne Callies: With our shattering teeth in the condemned prison, but so what happened to you in season five? And we can we can cut this if you don't want to talk about

Matt Olmstead: it But I was in a deal an overall deal universally work on the Chicago show So I wasn't available to to work on it because it was a project and now all the writers So

Sarah Wayne Callies: we have Dick Wolfs to blame is what you're saying.

Sarah Wayne Callies: They

Matt Olmstead: were right. Fair enough. Everybody was locked elsewhere so they couldn't go over and help.

Paul Adelstein: And uh, I'm sure you've seen that there's a, not a reboot exactly, but a continuation of the universe.

Matt Olmstead: Yes.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, is that right? And that's coming [00:27:00] soon, Hulu?

Matt Olmstead: Or are you writing? It's a reboot. And it is a reboot. Okay.

Matt Olmstead: Yeah. Uh, Don is an EP on it. Oh, oh, good. Yeah. I haven't seen anything. I had actually pitched out a season six version of it with the original characters when I was on ABC. And because ABC was tied to 20th, so then there was some little bit of, I could do that. So I went there, pitched it, priced, gained some traction, then I leave ABC to come back to Universal, and then I, there, there went that.

Matt Olmstead: So by the time everything got resurfaced or revisited, they were like, okay, well enough time has passed, maybe we'll do, um, a reboot. So a reboot is in the works. How far along it is, I don't exactly know.

Paul Adelstein: But it's the same world, they're not starting over, right? They're, it's some kind of side prequel, sidequel thing?

Paul Adelstein: It's

Sarah Wayne Callies: the story of Manche and how he gets out of Fox River having fallen, that would actually be amazing. It could be. [00:28:00] A little quick inside baseball for people who are listening who might not fully understand, part of what happened is Prison Break was made by, I believe, 20th Century Fox.

Paul Adelstein: Yep. For Fox. For Fox.

Sarah Wayne Callies: 20th was then sold to Disney. And for a long time, I remember there being a bit of a turf war over who owns the rights to Prison Break. Um, and so for a while, you know, I, I imagine you know this, Matt, but most of us in the cast who are on social media, probably half of my feed is people going, when do we get more episodes of this show?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't know. It's, it's, it's extraordinary from all over the world.

Matt Olmstead: Yep.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And there are times. In the past where I've wanted to say, you guys, there is such, like, I felt like Prison Break was the dog in the divorce. Everyone's like, I don't know what house it's gonna live in. I don't know how to take care of this thing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And so, for a long time I was like, this just isn't feasible from a Anyway, so that's, you know, as you're talking about working for ABC, which allows you to do something with 20th, which is why you could reboot it. And then of course, there's, [00:29:00] you know, I think Wentworth understandably saying, I'm done playing straight characters.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. Um, which could be a remarkable reveal

Paul Adelstein: where

Sarah Wayne Callies: Michael and Sarah turn out to be besties who

Paul Adelstein: There you go.

Sarah Wayne Callies: move on to other relationships. But, um, um, do you want to tell this story? How you met your wife on our show? Because. We had divorces on our show, but as far as I know, you were Oh, no, you were not the only marriage.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Didn't Silas meet his wife on our show, too?

Paul Adelstein: Yes, Silas and

Sarah Wayne Callies: KK. Silas and KK met on the show, but, you know,

Matt Olmstead: I remember I was going through a separation divorce, fairly, you know, recent, told a few people. And it's funny, when you go through divorce and your married friends are like, Okay. Be single for two years and tell us everything.

Matt Olmstead: We'll do. Yeah. I told my then agent, he's like, you know, Dawn's going through one and we'd worked together, but never like socialized or. [00:30:00] Talked to her about it, oh shit, and then even though we were together for like a year, smarts, why not, dinner, which turns into dinner, you know how it works. So I had the full intention, or my friends had the full intention that I'd be single.

Matt Olmstead: Carousing, I was single for 12 hours, less than they anticipated. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: mean, she's an extraordinary woman. She's an amazing human

Matt Olmstead: being.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I remember, because you know, you guys were, this was all happening away from set. And I remember thinking there was a typo on the call sheet. And I was like, you guys, it's Matt Olmsted and Don Peruse.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And they were like, funny story. And I was like, wait, serious? I was like, the great, the great on set romance that always happens in season one was between our head writer and our executive producers. It wasn't actors for a minute. I know, the

Paul Adelstein: actors, the actors felt, uh, like, wait, this is, this is what we're supposed to be doing.

Paul Adelstein: Supposed to be our territory. This is set, this is location shit. Yeah. This is LA shit.

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:31:00] So funny.

Paul Adelstein: So did you guys get married between seasons one and two?

Matt Olmstead: We

Paul Adelstein: got

Matt Olmstead: married right before the, like, the weekend before the last writer's strike, which was, I mean, whatever, how long ago it was. 2007.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That was the year my first kid was born.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yep.

Paul Adelstein: So I think season three then. I was already in private practice.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, anything. As you look back on it, and again, this is not a gotcha question, but is there anything that you'd do differently? I ask partly because Paul and I, as we're rewatching, I feel like I'm watching a different person. I have almost no attachment to this, what a 26 year old, brand new, barely have ever done TV human being that I'm watching.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So not in a sort of actually actor neurotic way, but I look at it and I go, Oh, there are certain choices I would make differently now because I've been doing it longer. This obviously wasn't early in your career, but And when you think about it and you look back on it, are there things, you know, you [00:32:00] mentioned there's certain jokes that you wouldn't be able to tell now and certain things you couldn't get away with.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And by the way, in a minute, we are going to get back to how the hell you got the name teabag past the network. Um,

Paul Adelstein: we've been asking

Sarah Wayne Callies: this question of each other. We've been making

Paul Adelstein: up stories about it the whole time about how this happened. But anyway, go on. Go on with your questions. Yeah. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: mean, is there anything that you would

Matt Olmstead: do differently?

Matt Olmstead: Story wise or, or, yeah, story wise. I can go back and you told me I got to, to re experience every second as it played out. I would go back and re experience every second. But I tell you, it was an across the board, low scale, glorious experience. I go back to the writers, and not only did we become friends and I admired their talent and they helped me, we tabled everything.

Matt Olmstead: So I as showrunner go in there and I would get notes from them on my script, which oftentimes doesn't happen, but we were gay. But beyond that, it was the [00:33:00] last of those writers rooms that were, you could be kind of nakedly emotional. And you could volunteer personal stuff and riotously funny, but people shared shit and people would, but, and I've explained to someone once upon a time that it wasn't directed at, people weren't getting ribbed or needled, all the energy went to the center of the room, if you know what I mean, so people were volunteering at the center of the room, so you weren't targeted, but you would also volunteer, some people would be less so, but the kind of the core tops that Karen and Nick Santora and certainly Zygestron, Um, you really got to know people because, but also you give people shit and, and that doesn't exist anymore.

Matt Olmstead: I think for good reason, because there are certain people who took advantage of that or singled people out or maybe people didn't feel comfortable. So because of that, nowadays, a lot of great work's done. I'm in a writer's room nowadays. And it's as sterile [00:34:00] as an operating room that no one brings anything because you just don't want to go to HR.

Matt Olmstead: You're very careful, but that's just the way it goes. You're here to write and get good material. When I look back on those moves in terms of just like, how did we come up with that? How did we, where did that story come from? But beyond that, like seeing the talent that was going on in Chicago, then Dallas and Los Angeles.

Matt Olmstead: As you know, you've got to clear five hurdles to get a show there. You have. Ten things have to come together, and they don't sometimes, but I look back on that experience, and then we, again, the writers will communicate in group text, we'll get together and see each other. There'll never be another one like it.

Matt Olmstead: Not for me.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Can we go back to Teabag now?

Matt Olmstead: Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: please. I'm just saying. Let's Teabag. Okay, so. We have

Sarah Wayne Callies: spent so many, so many episodes going, did they not know? And what was the moment when somebody At Fox was like, you guys, I just found out what teabag means.

Matt Olmstead: Right? Like

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:35:00] tell us, well,

Matt Olmstead: I'll give you, I'll give you, so the teabag is similar to later, so I'll back up first.

Matt Olmstead: There's a character later called Avocado Balls Johnson. Yeah. Who would,

Paul Adelstein: I'm saying,

Matt Olmstead: and Paul Shering would kind of, he just kind of threw it out there. Okay. So Avocado Balls Johnson comes in and so they we're like, well, what do we call him? Well, we already called him in the room. Avocado Balls Johnson. But we can't call that.

Matt Olmstead: Like, how do we crap this? So we're like, let's do an avocado and then have a hyphenate last name on the script. B A L Z hyphen Johnson. Avocado Balls Johnson. And it went through and they did it and the Avocados Balls Johnson were like, So that was kind of informed by the cheat. Like Munch's carpets?

Matt Olmstead: Munch's carpets, yeah. We had a whole discussion about,

Paul Adelstein: why is his name Avocado? I don't think we knew, I don't think we heard his last name. I don't think you get his last name. We were like, why?

Matt Olmstead: It was Avocado and someone later says, you know, get Balls Johnson down. I can't remember how it got backed up or tucked in.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sorry, is that a thing? The guys talk about Avocado [00:36:00] Balls? No. Because if it is, I'm learning right now. But now

Paul Adelstein: I can't get it out of her. Now I can't get it out of my head. And then now, it also not, not just this, you know, not just the sexual abuse, he's, he's heaping on poor tweener. Poor tweener. The fact that tweener went at his genitals with a straight razor has a, now I can picture it even more specifically than I was

Matt Olmstead: picturing it before.

Matt Olmstead: The grass. Yes. So early on, we're talking about The tea bag character and again, the nickname comes up and someone mentions that back then there was a, it's a slang term for something that I think fraternities back then might have been somewhat, it's an act that someone does when you get tea bagged. So the name comes up.

Matt Olmstead: Don't look it up. Don't Google. Nobody Google that. And so we're calling him tea bag in the room. Then again, we're like, what's his name? Well, we've been calling him tea bag. [00:37:00] And well, we can't get that across. And then we're like, well, let's have his name, the, the Aron Spray into the nickname. I can't remember who it was who was like, what about Timothy?

Matt Olmstead: And then we tossed around, tossed around Bagwell. Timothy Bagwell, it goes by T Bag for short. So that's how, because keep in mind when standards and practices, the censors, they don't hear it, they read it. So if you see Timothy Bagwell, and then it's like T Bag under that, you can kind of sneak it in a little bit.

Matt Olmstead: But that's one of those, also, how we got that through, I have no idea, and it just.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It is amazing.

Paul Adelstein: It is amazing. I think the moment I keep fixating on is, okay, it goes through, and now it's three episodes have aired, five episodes have aired, and then somebody at Fox goes. Oh, shit. And then

Sarah Wayne Callies: Data Walden goes,

Paul Adelstein: get me Matt Olsted.

Paul Adelstein: And then somebody goes, are you going to tell, are you going to tell Standard of Practices that they missed this? I'm not going to tell them. Are you going to tell them? I don't know. [00:38:00] I didn't miss it. Too late. Too late. Too late. And

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, in theory, something similar, but far less raunchy happened with C Note, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: That he becomes Benjamin Franklin because he's been called C Note? Or did that start with him being Benjamin Miles Franklin and somebody?

Matt Olmstead: Yeah, that was in the original pilot, I remember Paul had read a couple kind of prison books, the real life prison books. Yeah, yeah. And there was a character named Sino in that and he liked that and I believe, so then he just kind of designed a name that would support that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Amazing. Amazing. Um, I, we do have to go soon, but I do have a couple more questions. Paul, do you have anything else you want to?

Paul Adelstein: I mean, I could go on forever, so Sarah, you hit it and I'll, I'll see what comes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, this is, since we're on names, this is itty bitty, but we just watched this episode together, like just now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And, um, when Michael comes out of the Pope's office, having subdued him and stuck him in the closet, he says to the receptionist, he's on a call with Druschel from the DOC. [00:39:00] Is that a name with any significance? Was that somebody's cat? That was

Matt Olmstead: my assistant, Jeff Kruschel. There you go. Says, there you go.

Matt Olmstead: There

Sarah Wayne Callies: you go. Okay. Always a connection. Always a connection. Because, I mean, the one about Seth cracked me up. Because, of course, we went to the same university. And I was like, oh my god, they turned this poor kid into a prison bitch. But then gave him a writing career, which is great. When, um, would you, sorry, sorry, go ahead.

Paul Adelstein: No, please. Do you remember, was it, um, so many of us ended up with our first, real first names. C. O. Mac, uh, Paul, Danny, Sarah was, Sarah was just a coincidence. Yeah. Um, was that a, who's, was that somebody's like, somebody's preference or was it, was it a, like a tongue in cheek thing that one person came up with?

Paul Adelstein: that everyone like that where did it come for

Matt Olmstead: I can't remember exactly where that came from. I think there was a little of convenience. It also might've been in the room kind of like, it's stuck. So, um, I loved it. Yeah. I loved it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You're lucky that they didn't [00:40:00] have a pet name for you, that you wouldn't like at least, you know, you became Paul and not like

Paul Adelstein: this.

Paul Adelstein: As far as I know, Some awful I have no idea. That's true. That's

Matt Olmstead: true. I was not in that writer's room. I now have an answer to your question. Is there anything I do differently very early on when I'm talking to Paul Turing? And like the tattoos, what happens when he gets out of prison? He's like, it'll always happen.

Matt Olmstead: Like, well, he's not planning on being in prison forever. What if we do, later we described that there's like a high level kind of henna that he put in there, but it's going to fade out slowly because he's planning on being out in two months.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Interesting.

Matt Olmstead: Went away. I look back and like, here we are lasering them, which is one of my favorite plot points in the show.

Matt Olmstead: I'm like, should have done the goddamn henna. Because they were

Sarah Wayne Callies: five hours on to put those tattoos on. That was brutal. From a production

Matt Olmstead: standpoint, it was, it, you know, it became a nightmare. Yeah, no, I could see that. For sure. Getting sleeved up. But [00:41:00] when, but dealing with that stuff, funny, once upon a time I read a quote on a teabag, carve your successes in stone, write your failures in the sand.

Matt Olmstead: And I look back and I remember some things I'm like, I'd forgotten about that because I, I wrote all that shit in the sand. I only remember the shit that I carve in stone, which is you guys, the staff, the accomplishment and the whole experience, getting out of a marriage that wasn't working out and meeting the love of my life.

Matt Olmstead: These are all the things I've carved in the sand or rather carved in stone. I'm pretty sure. It's

Sarah Wayne Callies: amazing. I'm gonna, like. I might get that tattooed. Carve your successes in stone, write your failures in sand. That's bloody beautiful. That's a great place to stop. And great

Paul Adelstein: advice I could take. We're going to take a very quick break, and then we're going to wrap up, but also we have some fan questions from Instagram for Matt.

Paul Adelstein: So we'll be right back. Okay, welcome back everyone. We have a few questions [00:42:00] from fans who wrote in on At Prison Break podcast on Instagram.

Paul Adelstein: Simon, at Simon Podcasts, asks, Was it always known from early on that Michael and Link would be revealed as half

Matt Olmstead: brothers? It's funny, when I came on the show, it was one of my first questions to Paul Sheeran. Like, why do they have different last names? He's like, I don't know. It's so different. I'm like,

Paul Adelstein: People are gonna ask.

Matt Olmstead: Mm

Paul Adelstein: hmm. Yeah, yeah. But I'm like, okay. I love a writer that doesn't have the, I love a writer that's like, because it's cool, and then somebody else has to figure it out. That was the, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But also if they had the same name, they would never be put in the same prison.

Matt Olmstead: There you go. So it was, what, same dad, different moms, the dad was out, the mom's out, we figured it out.

Matt Olmstead: We figured it out. But that was addressed very early on. Yeah. To

Paul Adelstein: that. At Caitlyn underscore XM asks, is there a favorite line you can remember writing yourself coming out of your fingernails, the prison break that you would be like? Like, did you write, we're not [00:43:00] breaking out of a Jamba Juice, gentlemen?

Paul Adelstein: Which is, I think, my all time favorite line

Sarah Wayne Callies: from the show. That was That might be Zach.

Paul Adelstein: That's

Sarah Wayne Callies: Zach. That's Zach. We're not breaking out of a

Paul Adelstein: Jamba

Sarah Wayne Callies: Juice, gentlemen.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. So is there a favorite line that you remember you, Matt Olmstead, wrote? I

Matt Olmstead: don't. I remember, I remember other lines from other writers who I was, you know, enamored with and over by.

Matt Olmstead: That being one of them.

Paul Adelstein: Can you give us, can you give us a few written in stone lines that, if you just say, someone says, Prison Break favorite lines to you, is there anything that, that Pops out to you. And if not, that's okay too.

Matt Olmstead: Yeah, I can't think of any. There's a couple of teabags lines. I didn't want to say out loud.

Matt Olmstead: Yeah, yeah. I know. I will say that his introductory scene in the bleachers were you're first seeing it written by Paul Turing. Again, it's one of those things where like, you could not do that nowadays. But also at the same time, you're like. This is real prison shit. Yeah. So this goes on. But I was like listening to a couple of the things that he says to try to woo Michael and it's directed, its animus is directed towards.[00:44:00]

Matt Olmstead: You know, the black prisoners who are working out across the way, I'm like, whoa, I forgot, like he went for it. So I don't admire the line because they make me happy. I admire like the fact that there was a kind of a bravery it took to like, they're going to talk like prisoners talk.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, we do have to wrap it up there, but we, and we want to thank everyone for listening.

Paul Adelstein: And here's the call in question of the week, man. We have a call in line 4 0 1 3. P break is our telephone number. Just the letter

Sarah Wayne Callies: P. Yeah, just the letter P.

Paul Adelstein: 4013 P break. Should we do last meals, Sarah? Should we just ask people? Yeah, we'll do that. Call in and say, what would you, if you were on death row, what would your last meal be?

Paul Adelstein: And Matt, that is our, that's one of our wrap up questions for you. So that's

Sarah Wayne Callies: the, uh, we do have, we've got a couple of wrap up questions we do for our guests here. Um, if you would be good enough to answer them. Uh, so if you were on death row, what would your last meal be?

Matt Olmstead: I've recently entertained this, talked to my daughters about the last meal, [00:45:00] um, I would go for a seafood platter, but I'm too tiered.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Olmstead: Um, a little plate of spaghetti, cold beer, and I would finish with a good chocolate chip cookie and I'm good.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Outstanding.

Matt Olmstead: Fantastic answer. Well thought out.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. So then our last question is just a fill in the blank. Um, we've answered this ourselves, all of our guests have answered it. Feel free to take your time.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You're a writer. There's no pressure, but it should be brilliant. Don't get sent to prison, but if you do go to prison, I'll give you that again. Don't get sent to prison. But if you do go to prison, and this, this came from, uh, Paul, who had heard somebody once say, don't get sent to prison, but if you do go to prison, quickly establish dominance.

Matt Olmstead: Don't go to prison.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Matt Olmstead: But if you do go to prison, do what you can through your attorney, public [00:46:00] defender, based on your own criminal background, hopefully it's minimal, to get sent to a prison like this. Joliet prison, where they sent the kind of minimal risk kind of old head prisoners, which was Evis by there were the topiary and there'd be bonsai trees and people were there just to do their time.

Paul Adelstein: You don't

Matt Olmstead: want to go to the modern pod style prison, like Stateville nearby to Joliet, where good luck. If you can get yourself to the minimal risk prison,

Paul Adelstein: you're going to be a lot This is maybe the most practical answer we've gotten.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: That is really, really great.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Fully fleshed out, as you would expect from a showrunner.

Matt Olmstead: I have, I have one of my favorite lines. Yes, what's your favorite line? The original finale where Michael is dead and it's showing all the [00:47:00] characters. Uh, where they are, before you go to the headstone. In, uh, just season four. Season four.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Matt Olmstead: And you see the quote that he established at the very beginning, be the change you want to see in the world.

Matt Olmstead: It was a great book in payoff, and we see. Your character with the boy, with his son in the market. And I'm screening that in the writer's room. We screened every cut together. We gave notes together as been established. We're all in tears. And scene where Paul's character has been elected to office. He's walking out and the widow of the former Danny's widow, you remember me and you say he was a great hero, American hero.

Matt Olmstead: And then she spits in your face and you get in the car. And I remember texting with you a couple of times on this because the [00:48:00] editor, when your character got in the limo, cranked it down and I found a song that played over it, this um, I can't remember what the name of the song was, but it really kind of fit.

Matt Olmstead: And right when the song turned, he cranked it down and a flashbulb kind of illuminated you. And I was just like, this is a magical ending of all the characters culminating in this kind of confluence of energy where they're all going to pay off. As they walk off the beach, no. Came back in another season, the whole thing.

Matt Olmstead: But at that time, it's so cathartic, and such a payoff, and so rewarding. But the idea of your character fraudulently as a politician. Yes, of course, Danny was an American hero, and he gets bit in the face, which was kind of like prison breaking body. Uh, that line comes to mind.

Paul Adelstein: That's cool.

Matt Olmstead: That was so fun to shoot, and it, you know, it was great.

Matt Olmstead: I remember, real quick, It was written, she spits on your shoes. I'm like, I can't write that she's going to spit in your face. You, [00:49:00] Rosette, have her spit in my face. I'm like, go right ahead. I love it. Absolutely. So good. God,

Paul Adelstein: I forgot about that. I remember that exchange too. I remember the whole email exchange about what, Where do you think he would be?

Paul Adelstein: It was so, and I think it's Sarah's thing about where do you think Kellerman would be now? We're thinking this, we're thinking that, do you have any thoughts? It was just so welcoming and organic. It was really, we're cool. Matt, thank you. Thank you so much. This has been just wonderful. Thank you guys. This was good

Matt Olmstead: fun.

Paul Adelstein: This was good

Matt Olmstead: fun. I'm glad, I'm glad to be doing this. I'm glad that you guys fondly remember it. Um, I didn't know if we were alone, the writers were alone, but I was like, it, you only get so many golden gigs, you really do, if you're lucky enough, y'all are to kind of be a part put out a career. That itself is a huge victory, but you only get so many golden gigs and Prison Breaking across the board was as gold as it gets.[00:50:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Calibre Studio production. Your hosts have been friends, I've had besties, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Edelstein. Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haber. We'll see Our head of Jailhouse Rock is Paul Adelstein who made the music for this podcast Keeping us Slim and Trim.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The Prison Yard has been sound designer and editor. The great Jeff Schmidt keeping us up to date on the outside world is production Assistant Drew Austin. Our prison artist logo and brand designer is John Zito and Little Big Brands. Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com. Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Email us at prison Breaking at Caliber Studio. And call us at 401 3P B R E A K. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a Caliber Studio production. Thank you for listening.