Caitlin Van Mol 0:00 This episode contains descriptions of violence and some salty language. Listener discretion is advised. In 2011, JELA, Zito lived with his wife, Andrea in two sons, Dominique, and Joseph in Philadelphia. But Joe commuted to work at Lincoln Center in New York City, where he worked in the box office.

Joe 0:27 The commute sucked. I'm not gonna lie. And you know, one of the things I regret to this day is, I missed a lot of things, you know, working up in New York, but at the time financially, it was the best thing for the family.

Caitlin Van Mol 0:40 And how long was that commute?

Joe 0:41 Five hours or a trip. From the time I left my house to the time I would get to work. It was two and a half hours each way. What did you do? I would buy the Philadelphia Daily News, I'd buy the New York Post. And I would read that, you know, pretty much cover to cover.

Caitlin Van Mol 0:57 On the morning of Saturday, February 12. Joe had completed the drive to the train station, taking the New Jersey Transit train to Penn Station, and now just had to take the subway uptown. But

Joe 1:12 that day, there they were doing construction on those tracks. So everything was running Express

Caitlin Van Mol 1:18 without digging into the weeds of the Manhattan transit authorities train schedules and stops. This basically meant Joe was taking a different train than he normally would.

Joe 1:29 The three train pulled up. So I jumped on that one. And before the doors close to cops got on uniformed cops, they got on the train. Now I'm in the very front of the train.

Caitlin Van Mol 1:40 How many people were in that car? Maybe

Joe 1:43 20. It wasn't fully this was Saturday morning. So I guess she had some people that had been out from the night before. And then you had some people that were starting their weekend in New York, so maybe maybe 20 or so people were on the car with me. Where I'm sitting is basically there's me there's a Steel Wall here. And then on the other side of the wall is the guy driving the train. So I'm literally at the very front of the train. The cops get on the train, they go right into the that he's called the motorman, you go right into the motor men's compartment with the guy driving the train. Which is weird, because I've been on the train a lot with with police officers, and most of the time, they just stay in the middle, you know, they're watching what's going on, or they're going station the station. So it was a little weird, but I didn't really think much of it. But then we don't move right away. And then we start moving. And we're going very slowly. But

Caitlin Van Mol 2:34 then a man approached the door, the police officers had gone through and started banging on it.

Joe 2:40 And he says, Let me in. And the voice on the other side of the door goes, who are you, and he goes on the police. And they go, you're not the police. And with that he just turns around and he goes and sits down. Now when he sits down there was a woman that he sat next to and she got up as fat like he hadn't even hit the seat yet. And she got up and went to the other end of the car. It gets weirder, because as that guy sits down, there was a gentleman standing to my left, he bolts to the door. And he's tapping on the window looking over his shoulder and tapping on the window trying to get the cops to come out. And he looks terrified. And the first guy starts walking back up. And with that, the second guy who was tapping on the window, hightails it right back to me right next to me. And like I said, Now at this point, I'm like, What the fuck is going on? Right? So, the guy, the first guy, he's walking towards the door, he stops about three feet from the door about two feet from me. He looks down and he says you're gonna die, you're gonna die. He reaches into the back of his jacket takes out an eight inch knife and he just walked right into my face right here.

Caitlin Van Mol 3:57 This is live to tell the podcast where I talk to some of the bravest people who have been through the most horrifying things and lived to tell the tale. I'm Caitlin van mol.

Joe 4:14 So now we're into it. So now he goes back again, he brings his arm back to come back down. And when he does that, I shoot in for his his legs. But obviously at this point, I'm just trying to get him down and instead of hitting him in the legs, I kind of went in too high and I ended up wrapping my arms around his waist, almost like a football tackle. I did get him down. But while I was taking them down, he kind of had to hold my whole head. And that's where he kind of slice me and stabbed me in the head here, here and here. If I basically knew that I could die I mean, I'm going hand to hand combat and he has a knife and I have nothing. But if I don't do anything, he's going to murder me. And then I'm never going to see my family again. And that wasn't enough. option if I was gonna die, I was gonna die fighting. So I'm on top of them. And he it's not even facing like he's so he's so high that he I don't even think he blinked like he's not a he's just like a robot at this point. Now he still has the knife throughout this whole thing he never let go with a knife. So he's on his back. And he's like flailing up with his hand. He's he's right handed. So as he's trying to stab me, I'm trying to catch with my left hand, and he tried twice, both times, I missed the first time he slaps me in my thumb in the webbing here. The second time, he got me into tricep. And finally, third time I was able to grab his arrest, I slammed it down on the thing, he dropped the knife, so I'm on top of him. Then I get the tap on the shoulder from the police, who at some point finally decided to make their way out. So I get to tap on the shoulder, you can get up now we got him. And I'm just like, okay, because now I've lost some blood. And I know they have to cops come out. So they got him and I get up and I just go and sit on the subway seat. And the male officer turns out well, he's bigger than I am. And he's having a hard time trying to restrain this guy. He can't control this guy's arms. And the female cop Tamara Taylor couldn't have been more useless. She's just standing there, and she won't get down. And she's like, should I make them? Should I make them? And how will says no, if you made some, it's gonna stay in the car. You there's no, there's no ventilation. So finally, a man named Alfred Douglas, who is my hero. He's a construction worker. And he goes over and he helps control this guy, so they can restrain him. At some point during the melee, someone pulls the emergency brake. So we stopped moving. But now we're in the middle of the tunnel. We're in between Penn Station, and 42nd Street in the tunnel. And we're not moving. So I'm sitting down, and I'm having my head down. And the blood is just pouring from both sides of me. And what I always tell people is if you want to know what that was like, next time you take a shower, turn your back to the showerhead had have the water hit yet in the in the where your neck meets your shoulders, and the water that flows down. That's basically what the blood was doing me that. So I'm starting to get nervous. All of a sudden, I look to my right, and there's cops coming from the back of the subway. Now there's maybe eight to 10 cops that are on there, and they're all going towards this guy.

Caitlin Van Mol 7:51 Not only is the train not moving, but no one, including the police is paying Joe any attention. All of the passengers have moved to the other end of the car. And Joe is just sitting there by himself bleeding.

Joe 8:11 And a cop walks by. And like, I don't even lift up my head, but I kind of grabbed their sleeve. And I'm like, You got to get me off this train. You know, I said, um, you know, I say you married and they said yeah, I said I'm married to. I said I want to see my wife. You got you got to get me off this train. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry. Don't worry. We're working on it. Don't worry. Okay. So now a couple more minutes go by still sitting there. Still, nobody's paying any attention to me. Contrast walked by grab. Hey, do you have kids? Yeah, I have kids. I'm like, I have two little boys. I said, I can't die on this train. You know, I'm basically beside myself. And they go, did you see how we all came from the back of the train? And I said, yes, they go the paramedics are on their way. That's how they're going to come. So keep an eye out for the paramedic. So in my head in my head, I'm like, alright, well, I'm getting some some you know, assistance. Right? And what are the cops do it? I don't know. Like at this point Gelman is apprehended couldn't go anywhere if he wanted to. They're just all hanging out by him. So the person that I mentioned Alfred Douglas, the guy who helped the cops corral him. He comes over and he starts basically yelling at the other passengers who are just looking at you guys aren't helping this guy you're ready to watch this guy die in front of you. How come nobody's helping right and he went out for did was he took his hat barehand and he put it up on my deepest wound which is back here. This this wound was so deep that I saw a picture of it. And you could see part of my skull. Alfred doesn't know me from anything. All he knows is he sees a guy that's possibly going to die. And he tried to help me. And then a woman came and gave him some napkins, which, of course, was a nice gesture on her part, but they're gonna get soaked right away before he probably even put it down. And then he's standing there, and he's trying to keep me calm. And finally the train starts moving.

Caitlin Van Mol 10:17 And how long have you been sitting there? 20

Joe 10:19 minutes, 20 minutes, maybe my life bleeding. I'm just bleeding like crazy. So we get to 42nd street, they opened the door now they had cleared the station. So there was nobody on that platform except for the paramedics. So they opened the door and they get him off the train. And then the paramedics come on, they lift me off the subway seat, put me on the stretcher. And as they put me on the stretcher, I pass out, but not unconscious, because I can still hear everything that's going on. It's kinda like you're watching television, you're starting to not often before you nod off completely, you're you're half in half out, you know, you can hear what's going on around you, but you're not completely out. Tomorrow, Taylor, the cop behind me was talking to one of the other cops. And in the conversation she called me likely, which didn't register with me at all. At that point. I didn't know what it meant. And up until this point, I hadn't felt any pain. Because I guess it was all the adrenaline there was no pain. And even when he was stabbing me, I didn't feel I felt like pressure. I was out maybe 10 seconds. When I came to that's the first time I felt pain. I guess that was the adrenaline dump. And I said it a million times. It's kind of like someone just doused my head and gasoline and lit it on fire. Like it was a pain I can't even describe. I'm on the stretcher. I'm awake. Now. I'm wide awake. The two paramedics were unbelievable. Those guys. You know, as far as I'm concerned, Alfred saved my life that day. The paramedic saved my life that day. I'm like, do you have anything for the pain yet? Anything for the pain? And I always I remember at this point, one of the guys said, well, we can't keep anything in the ambulance for pain because it'll probably get stolen. And I said, Yeah, you know, I guess that makes sense. But I just kept saying just talk to me, keep me away, because I don't know. But I just know what I see on TV. And in the movies. I don't want to go to sleep. I don't know if I wake up if I go to sleep. Luckily,

Caitlin Van Mol 12:35 the Saturday morning traffic wasn't too bad. They got to the hospital quickly, and immediately pumped him full of morphine.

Joe 12:46 And then a cop comes to the head of the bed, platform, whatever it was at this point, and he shows me a mug shot. And he says is this the guy that did this to you? And I said, Yeah. When he said, Well, you're a hero. And I said, Well, I'm not a hero. What I do, why my hero when he says well, he killed four people last night.

Caitlin Van Mol 13:07 The man who attacked Joe was Maxim Galman, a 24 year old man who lived in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. The morning before attacking Joe Galman had stabbed his stepfather Alexandra coos nets off to death over an argument about borrowing the car. Leaving his mother unharmed. Galman took the car and drove to the home. Yeah, Elena will chenko shared with her mother Maxim and your Lena never dated, but he had been fixated on her since they briefly became friendly the year prior. He Elena wasn't home, but her mother Annabelle chenko was Galman stabbed Anna to death and waited six hours for you Elena to come home. And when she did, he killed her to around 4:15pm As he was speeding away from the bull chenko home he got out, stabbed Arthur and stole his Pontiac Bonneville are they're survived. But as Galman left that scene, he hit Stephen Tannenbaum with the car, killing him. Around 12:55am Galman forced his way into Fitz Fullerton is livery cab, stabbed Fitz and stole the cab. minutes later, Gelman did the same thing to Shelton pottenger. Around 8:30am Galman was spotted on the one train going downtown from 130/7 Street. police were alerted that Galman was in the subway and we're actively searching for him, including the two officers that boarded Joe's train and ignored Gellman when he banged on the window.

Joe 14:56 And I always say that's the part of the movie where they kind of focus on my face and then fade out in slow motion because I still don't know how to react to that. At the time. I didn't, it didn't register right away, and even talking to you today, I still don't know how to react to that. Because you kind of think about your life and things that you're going to experience. You don't really ever think you're going to hear something like that. I know at one point I said to myself, well, he said, I was going to die, and he really was going to try to make it happen.

Caitlin Van Mol 15:29 While Joe's wounds were being attended to, he needed to alert his family before the attack hit the news.

Joe 15:37 And at the time, my wife was working at a health club. And on the weekend, she did their books. So she's working with money. And I've called her before while she's doing the money, and it's always the same thing. I called her and I said, Hey, and she's like, Hey, Joe, I can't say on the phone. I got all this money in front of me. I'll call you back when I'm done. I'm like, Oh, hold on, hold on. So I said there was an incident on the train. I said, I'm okay. But I'm in Bellevue Hospital right now. And she goes, come on, Joe, stop screwing around, you know, because I think I have the typical guy sense of humor, you know, and we had been together a while then, though, I don't think I'm that twisted. But I can see, like, if she's focused on the money, like she's like, come on, I don't have time for this. So then, I took the dramatic pause. And I said, Andrea, there was an incident on the train today. I am okay. But I am in Bellevue Hospital. And at that point, I felt the life just leave her body even though I couldn't see. I just could feel it through the phone. And I hate this is like talking about my conversations with my wife are the toughest part of this whole story. And I just all of a sudden, she starts screaming, and her coworker picks up the phone. And I'm like, Okay, I said, this is the reaction I expected. Andrea

Caitlin Van Mol 16:58 grabbed the boys and immediately started driving to the hospital, with his wife and kids on the way Joe could turn his focus to the doctors addressing his wounds.

Joe 17:09 So the one the one doctor who was going to put me back together again, he goes, Listen, because I know you've been through a lot this morning. And he goes, but I have to numb your head and he goes, this is going to suck, because they had to basically inject it into the wound. So we would numb it. He wasn't lying. It sucked. The flipside of that is after it was numb, they could hit me with a sledgehammer. I wouldn't have felt it. Because Have you ever had staples? And I said, No, because it goes, you're gonna have just so you know, your wounds on your head that you're going to need stitches and staples. I didn't think I had any negotiation. Any negotiating power on my side? Like, no, no, no, I'll just leave it. Yeah, just leave it open. We'll just use gorilla glue on there. We'll we'll glue it together. But then it was an interesting dynamic when the staples go in. Because if anyone's ever used a staple gun, you hear like, didn't come to me. And that's basically what it felt like. And it actually didn't feel like anything. Like I felt the pressure. And it was the sound more than anything.

Caitlin Van Mol 18:14 Right. Just being aware of what it is. Yeah. Listen,

Joe 18:19 I think, you know, it was. I don't want to say it was cool. But I'm glad I was awake for it. Because it was just interesting. Like, I'm hope I hope I never have to go through it again. The ones who was enough? How

Caitlin Van Mol 18:31 do you get staples out?

Joe 18:36 There's a little utensil, sort of, I'm sure it's a little more advanced than a staple remover. You know, like the thing staple? How you would take out staples, like if you stapled a poster to your wall as a kid. And now you needed to take the staple out of the wall, you have the staple remover, you click it and you pull it out. So that's exactly how you take out staples. Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, and the good part is at that point, it's, it's healed about as much as it's going to heal. So it's not like even really feel it. You feel them coming out, but it's not painful.

Caitlin Van Mol 19:12 A lot of Joe's family lived on Long Island, and they started streaming in. But the people Joe wanted to see the most are Andrea and his boys. Obviously

Joe 19:23 they're coming from Philadelphia. And so they're the last ones that get there. And I think part of the reason why I get emotional is because my wife will tell you how she dealt with it and how she was able to drive up not knowing what she's going into is that my sons who were 10 and seven at the time, were basically the ones calming her down. So So for me as a dad, like I I'm so proud of them. Like with everything. I can't imagine what I would have done I'm at that age if I was 10, or if I was seven, and my mother was in that situation, because you don't know. So finally, I heard them before they opened the curtain. And thankfully, when you see my face, the only thing you really saw was this, I was all busted up, like, I had the stitches here, and my eye was blue, and yellow, and red and all that stuff. But everything else was pretty much behind or on other parts of my body. So when they when they opened the curtain, and I just saw their faces, and I just I lost it. I did I lost it. So, you know, they come over, they give you the big hug, you know, and then everything was fine.

Caitlin Van Mol 20:41 Among the many relatives that showed up for Joe that day was his sister, Angela, and NYPD cop.

Joe 20:49 And she's like, what, you know, like, what the hell? What the fuck happened? Right? So I'm telling her and then I go, Oh, I said, Hey, I heard the cops say something that I don't know what it meant. She was while and I go, I heard her call me likely. The color just drained from her face. And she never calls me Joseph. He called me Joe. Everyone calls me Joe. She was Joseph, what did you say? And I said, yeah, she's talking to another cop. And she's called, she said, I was likely. And she goes, Oh, likely means likely to die. And I was like, okay, so I think it was at that point where I put two and two together. Like I said, there really wasn't much concern for me on the train. I'm so grateful for someone like Alfred, because it shouldn't have been Alfred that came over to try to render any sort of medical assistance, thankful I'm forever grateful that he was there. And that her calling me likely is where I definitely knew that they had prioritized me as a very low priority, because he had already killed four people if he kills five, but they arrested him. Don't cares. Like, I care, my family cares. But from their point of view, they just arrested a guy that was terrorizing Brooklyn for the last 28 hours.

Caitlin Van Mol 22:14 But Joe did make it out alive. And the story of this subway hero that helped stop the madman who terrorized Brooklyn was all over the news. My

Joe 22:26 wife and I are watching TV and they did like the teaser before the five o'clock news coming up at five. And they say Hear from Mayor Michael Bloomberg about the apprehension of Maxim Gellman. Of course it's a first story and the mayor gets up there and he says, thanks to the heroic action of NYPD officers Terrence Howell and Tamara Taylor and off duty police officer Marcelo razo Maxim Gelman was apprehended on uptown, number three train today. And my wife is red, red read. And like, I sort of don't know what to say, I'm like, I, I know I did something. I'm in the hospital. I said, Yeah. You know, like, I'm saying that tongue in cheek, right. I don't know anyone. But oh, man, the steam coming out of my wife's ears. Well, okay. So that was the first I heard of it. But again, it's a quick clip. It's Steve, I don't know. They didn't obviously show the whole press conference. So I don't know what is said.

Caitlin Van Mol 23:33 Joe gave the city and the NYPD the benefit of the doubt. But that went away when he was visited by a reporter from the Daily News. The Sunday

Joe 23:45 Sunday morning. The reporter from the Daily News thinks all she's coming in to get his my reaction to how heroic they the police were. So she says, could you just take me through what happened? And I said, Yeah, so I start telling her the story, like I was telling you, and I'm talking, I'm talking and she goes, Wait, hold on, excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt you. She goes, you're the one that stopped them. And I said, Yeah, she goes, Well, that's not what the police are saying. So I go, I don't know what they're saying. I said, but this is what happened. And I would say her eyes lit up. And she goes, have you spoken to anyone else yet? I said, no. You're the first one. And she goes here and she had the she had the copy of the Daily News that day, a copy of the post in the times. And they were all talking about how this guy was captured and how the cops were so heroic. And there was even an article in the Daily News about how heroic Terrence Howard was that he was able to subdue this guy and he didn't even have to unholster his gun. It was it was the tale it was the tale of two cities in terms of articles because if you read the paper on Sunday, and then you read the paper on Monday, while there were two totally different versions of what happened.

Caitlin Van Mol 25:02 Not only were the news outlets saying Howard and Taylor but mostly Howard apprehended Gelman alone, but that off duty detective Marcelo razo was also present and assisted in the arrest. And who is Raza? Oh,

Joe 25:21 well, I'm glad you asked. I, I always say more solo Raza, they must have owed him one. Because when I saw his picture, I said, Can I curse? Do we talk about this?

Caitlin Van Mol 25:34 Yeah, I mean, you already have and it's fine.

Joe 25:38 So I saw his picture. And I said, well, that motherfucker wasn't on the train. I said he was not on the train. I said, the next time I'm on a train with Marcelo Raza will be the first time I'm on the train with Marcel Raza. So I don't exactly know what's happening there. Because Alfred Douglas was the one who helped apprehend him. Joe

Caitlin Van Mol 26:00 was released from the hospital on Sunday, and jumped right into an onslaught of interviews. He also was going to testify to the grand jury the following Thursday, less than a week after the assault,

Joe 26:14 it's going to be me and how will into Mara Taylor, we're going to hold testify, I'm gonna go first. And we go in and I'm basically sitting in front of you may as well have been a million people. I don't remember how many people were there was a lot of people and da da is name was Lynn. And he's ADA Lindy. She's asking me questions, and I'm answering him and I believe there were times it probably got emotional. And I remember that they started passing the pictures around, they had taken photos of me before they stitched me up and stapled me, which I'd never seen before and have have never been made public. Thankfully, I would hate for those pictures to ever be made public because they're pretty dramatic. And they would probably they're disturbing. And like I said, the one picture you could see my skull

Caitlin Van Mol 27:01 gel watched as the jury could barely make themselves look at the photos.

Joe 27:07 I was there. I don't know how long it was. It wasn't very long. I mean, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, maybe if that will. So I'm done. And I go out and I sit down and then who is sitting next to me. But tomorrow Taylor. And she looked really uneasy. She I don't know what she said to me. Like, how was it? Whatever I saw was fine. You know, just, you know, basically given my recollection of the day. And okay, and then she, I go I know, hey, I remember when you call me likely. And she just looked at me and said, you remember that? And I said yeah, I remember everything. I said I remember everything. And that was it. completely shut down. Now I got the text from my sister, I were outside and I got up on my arm. Have a good day. And that was it.

Caitlin Van Mol 28:00 Maximum Gelman ended up pleading guilty to the murders and assaulting Joe. So there was no trial.

Joe 28:08 The crime against me was committed in Manhattan, everything else that he did the four murders and the two or three assaults that all happened in Brooklyn. So he was going to be sentenced sentence in Brooklyn before the Manhattan one. And I remember reading the papers the next day after after that in Brooklyn, and he was just as big a piece of shit as he possibly could be. He was you know, very disrespectful to the victim's families.

Caitlin Van Mol 28:40 In all, Gelman was sentenced to 200 years for the Brooklyn murders, assaults and robberies. He was on remorseful and at one point shouted at the victim's families. Though his sentence for the Brooklyn crimes assured that Galman was never getting out of prison. He still needed to be sentenced for attacking Joe. Joe read a victim impact statement at Galman sentencing and was fired up after reading about Calvin's behavior in Brooklyn court.

Joe 29:13 I'm not grateful that he was an asshole to them. But I'm grateful that I read the article because then I knew what to expect. So then it was sort of like, well, I know I'm smarter than him. I know I'm more clever than he is. So let's do the war of words. Because I knew the minute I said something he was going to try to come back with something but so I said, I said what I said he said what he said and we were going back and forth. And and I started feeling my adrenaline and I could feel like you kind of get like the interior shakes. And it's not it's not nerves. It's I have to control myself. And at that point, I kind of shut it down and I said, you

Caitlin Van Mol 29:56 maybe do something violent because

Joe 29:58 I walk again intellectually, I know I can't do anything but the body is going to react, the mind is going to cause the body to react a certain way. And I knew there was no chance I would get to him. And that's when I shut it down. And then I sat down and the he made a stupid comment about Kim Kardashian.

Caitlin Van Mol 30:18 Galman actually proposed to Kim Kardashian, who was not present. It was,

Joe 30:24 it was fun. I mean, don't get me wrong. It was it was fun to be there again. You know, I'm sure some people would look at it that way. But I had the opportunity to basically tell him what a coward he was, you know, you get the opportunity to say what you want to say to someone, obviously, I wish it was just, you know, a locked room with no windows, but I didn't have that option. So you work within the parameters you're given. I would do it once a week if I could? Absolutely. Yeah, I would do it. I do it once a week if I could go in there and basically belittle 100% Galman,

Caitlin Van Mol 30:59 was sentenced to 25 years for assaulting Joe, to be served consecutively to the sentence for the murders. Galman sentencing was about a year after his arrest. While Galman waded out that year in Rikers, Joe was recovering from the attack as quickly as he could. His work had told him to take all the time he needed. But Joe was itching to get back to normal. So he decided to go back three weeks after the attack.

Joe 31:29 And I remember my boss Kong, and my boss who's not just the boss, he was, he's a friend. He's one of the nicest people I've ever met. And he goes, I'm going to meet you at Penn Station and take the train with you to the job. So he goes, Just tell me what time you get to Penn Station. And I'm gonna take the subway with you. And I was like, guy, you don't have to do that. You know, you don't you know, he's like, no, no, no, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. So the first day back, he met me at Penn Station. And we were just laughing about it pretty much alternately. Pete's like, I don't know, I don't know what I'm gonna do if a guy comes at us with, you know, because, but because I just want to be here to support you. And I was like, that's great. And again, I work in a box office. I'm not building houses or anything. So it's not, I wouldn't call it manual labor. Probably about halfway through the day. I was just out of gas. And he saw, like, I didn't know he's like, You got to go home. And I was like, I don't know. Maybe I came back too soon. Then Then we I came back the following week. So I think all told, I was out for a month.

Caitlin Van Mol 32:32 Were you being paid while you were out? Yes.

Joe 32:36 Obviously, it was a big story. No, it was it was a global story, but especially so in New York City. So I doubt it was much of a decision. They didn't have to pay me. They didn't have to, but they did. And I'm grateful for that. I'll always be grateful for that.

Caitlin Van Mol 32:54 By this point, Joe had told his story to many news outlets. But the city's version of events hadn't really changed. Joe was Gavin's last victim and the two police officers were the ones that stopped him. There wasn't much Joe could do about that. But one day, shortly after Joe returned to work, he was approached at the Lincoln Center fountain, by someone with some pretty damning information.

Joe 33:22 I'm just kind of walking around the fountain talking to a buddy of mine. And I noticed that there's someone following me, and I'd start laughing like, like at this point, nothing fazes me anymore, right? So along, if I go, you're not gonna believe this. And he knows what I'm like, there's someone following me. And he, like, come on. I'm like, Dude, I'm walking in a circle. There's someone falling. It's like, let me call you back. So I still my pace to the point where he gets close to me, and I turn around and I'm just like, Can I help you? And he got he was started. He's like, Oh, no, no, I'm not looking for any trouble. I'm not looking for any trouble. It goes, I was on the grand jury that you testified in front of. And I said, Well, how do I know that? I said, I don't know. You could be lying. I'm How do I know that? He goes, alright. I know the pictures that they showed us were very graphic. And basically whatever he said was I knew he wasn't lying, because those were never made public. And he said, When Terrence Howell testified, he testified that when you and Gelman had first started, he was going to come out. But he thought Gelman had a gun. So he stayed inside. So it took me a second. And I'm like, I'm like sweet. He testified that he was going to come out and do something. But he thought that the other guy had a gun. So we went back inside to the locked room and left a train full of unarmed passengers to deal with this guy. And he goes, Yeah, and he goes when he said that, we're just kind of like looking at each other, like he goes, it hit us all at once. Like, did he really just say that? He said after he was done testifying, and he left the room and goes, basically the jury, the grand jury kind of surrounded the ADA, and said, Can we bring him up on charges? He goes, you know, basically, he goes, This is what our tax dollars are paying for he goes, he just admitted to leaving a train full of unarmed civilians with a spree killer. And the idea is like, no, no, no, that's not what we're here for. It's not what we're here, we got to stay focused on the task at hand, right. Part of me was happy that I finally had the confirmation. But for the most part, it was like being attacked all over again. Yeah, that's when we decided that we had to do something.

Caitlin Van Mol 35:41 That something was to sue the New York Police Department, the city filed to dismiss immediately, the lawyer Joe had been working with didn't have much hope they would win, and decided not to move forward with the case. So Joe took it on himself, and wrote a response to the dismissal.

Joe 36:01 I have my computer, and I have Google, before I would go to work in the morning, I would be on there working on it. When I would come home from work, I'd be on the computer working on it. On my days off, it was nonstop. So I'm literally looking up hundreds. And because they their whole dismissal thing was full of fluff. It was I mean, they, they had cases in there about broken fences. They had cases in there about exotic cars, there was office furniture case, like absolute garbage. So Joe

Caitlin Van Mol 36:37 writes up this whole document describing how all the cases the city cited, weren't relevant to what happened to him. And I had sent the file to Ed, the lawyer not working on the case, because he's

Joe 36:50 like, when you're done, send it to me, I want to read it over. He basically said, he goes, I'll be honest with you, this is probably as good as anyone could do. That is not a lawyer, as far as what I've read, which meant a lot to me, because he could have said, it is a piece of shit.

Caitlin Van Mol 37:08 So Joe submitted the document to the court. And

Joe 37:12 I wait, and I pray that they don't dismiss the case. And I don't know how many weeks later it was, I'm sitting, I'm at work, and my phone rings, and it's Edie. And he's I just wanted to say, I don't know if you know, but I'm, I'm really sorry, they still dismiss the case. And there was there were a lot of tears, you know, we were very upset because I wanted I wanted my opportunity. And the thing that I always said was, if I'm if I'm allowed to go to court, and I lose, I won't like it, but I'll accept it. Because then the process was true to itself. I was allowed to, to do what I had to do. And whether it was a jury or the judge, hey, you win nothing, you lose, you win $1. At least the process happened. And when I read her dismissal, it was two and a half pages. She basically for two and a half pages agreed with what I said, said my recollection rings true and is very credible. But based on precedent she couldn't she could not not dismiss the case. There

Caitlin Van Mol 38:27 is a really great episode of radio lab called no special duty that explains all the legal nitty gritty really well. But to summarize here, the police have no constitutional duty to protect citizens unless a special relationship is formed. In this case, that means that the police would have had knowledge that Joe was in danger, which it seems like they did. Joe would have had to ask the police for help, which he did not. The police would have had to agree to help him which they did not. And Joe would have had to act differently, believing the police would step in. Otherwise they have no special duty to intervene.

Joe 39:13 It's a hard lesson that I learned when cases are brought against them like mine. It's the first thing people would say it's on your cars to protect and serve it's on your cars. Well I guess after hearing that enough, they've actually changed it's not on their cars anymore. The cars now say courtesy professionalism and respect. I would

Caitlin Van Mol 39:37 be so angry all the time. How do you kind of deal with that?

Joe 39:42 I am you know, I'm angry when I have to be but I think if I let it consume me, then that could get dangerous. You know ticket dangerous for me or the people I love or people I don't love it. I think I think that could snowball very easily, but it's nothing I really have to work at and I've actually For someone who doesn't, who doesn't really focus on it, I've actually had people say, Why don't you get over it? And I'm like, Well, I don't really do anything like I, I post my tweets every morning. But that's sort of just like my routine, but I don't, I don't dwell on it. But I guess it's just how you how you view things, while Joe

Caitlin Van Mol 40:19 found the cops on the train that day lacking to say the least, he still has respect for the profession. I

Joe 40:27 think if you're in a line of work, where you don't know if you're coming home that night, I think there's a certain amount of reverence that I think should be paid to you. Now, that and that's just the way I was raised. I've always been one that has taken people individually, there are bad people in every line of work, you would hope in a in a line of work like law enforcement, that would be the percentage would be low. But it's like any other line of work. We're all human. And I was unfortunate enough to be on the train that day with two cowardly pieces of shit. And let me let me go one step further. I think when a cop does something heroic, that guy should be a court order lady should be across all the newspapers and on the news. But conversely, when they dropped the ball, they've got to be called to the carpet.

Caitlin Van Mol 41:27 And given all that Joe has gone through his life today is just about the same as it was before the attack.

Joe 41:33 What is it 435 Right now, it's Sunday. In about 90 minutes, I'm going to throw some stuff on the grill, you know, like a typical Long Island dad and have a beer or two. And that's pretty much that's it?

Caitlin Van Mol 41:48 Is there anything I missed? Anything you want to make sure isn't there that we didn't talk about?

Joe 41:51 Well, if you don't mind, can I tell people about my podcast? Oh, yes, please. We're not in direct competition with each other. Sure. Hockey's a big part of our lives. It's been a big part of my life forever. And I have my own podcast. It's about hockey fighting. So what I do is I interview fighter guys who fight in hockey, because I think it's the most noble role. It didn't really fight anymore. The game sort of gotten a little soft. But I tried to interview guys that did the job. I think it's the most selfless job you're putting you're literally putting your life on the line for your teammates for your brothers. And I feel like these guys should be acknowledged. Well Coliseum chronicles the penalty box. If you're interested in hearing some really good stories from the guys who've who've battled, definitely check it out. It's on all the platforms and you know, download, don't stream download part of the hockey Podcast Network. So every time you download, get a few more pennies there. You

Caitlin Van Mol 42:51 can find Coliseum chronicles the penalty box wherever you get your podcasts. This is live to tell. I'm Caitlin van mol. You can follow the show on Instagram and Tiktok at live to tell podcast. If you enjoy today's episode, please rate review and subscribe. It really helps the show. I'll see you in two weeks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai