Hello and welcome to Eyewitness Beauty, the podcast where we talk about the biggest stories in the beauty industry each week. I'm Nick Axel Rodwellk, joined by Annie Diamond, Kriegbaum. - Hello, hi. - And this episode could be called Waiting for Calloway, like Waiting for Godot, because we were going to have Caroline Calloway on this episode, she confirmed yesterday and yet. - We're making her, I don't like how, I feel like we're spinning this to make her look bad. I will say it was just a - - We had, oh, we wanted her to come on Because we love her Leave it leave us hanging if that's what says you today Yeah, and honestly, that's sort of the name of the game. That's what I signed up for I'm when I asked her to be on it, you know, I really championed her No, I feel like I've been a woman's woman on this one. I Love her remember when she cracked to do about what a memoir was you're like well It's interesting because you're so young to write a memoir like what what would even be in your issues like a memoir is only a period of time it's not meant to be inclusive of somebody's whole entire life experience oh right i was like ooh i didn't know that i'm gonna write a memoir i didn't know that either i thought i had to be like in my 70s yeah i thought so too but i still do i there are things Mm -hmm. Speaking of death. Yeah, you know what was really made me sad this week or last week was Morgan Spurlock dying Why he was the director of what did you see supersize me the documentary when I was like a baby When it came out. Oh my god. Well, I'm a little bit older than you I saw it at the Angelica theater. I think in New York City, And I just thought he was like a really good documentarian. I love documentary film. Like when it's like capturing the Freedmen's, which is a truly insane soul -shaking movie. But it's Andrew Durekki who also ended up went on to direct the Jinx. Anyway, that's one of my favorite documentaries. Errol Morris, "The Thin Blue Line." I love documentary. Anyway, Morgan Spurlock I thought I thought was quite good. SuperSizeMe was quite, like it was entertaining, but also I feel like changed the conversation, which I appreciate a cultural conversation. And Speak of the Devil, Miss Caroline Callaway. First things first, you're in Florida right now? Yes, I'm in Florida. And I don't know if you guys have a visual component to the podcast. If you do, yeah, I'm in the junk room of my new. I mean, really, when you're Caroline Calloway, it's like, aren't all the rooms junk rooms, but the junk room of my new condo in Florida. You won't believe this, Nick, with the success of scammer. Andy and I were talking about this on the phone the other day, she already knows, but I was actually able to put down a down payment on property, property. Do you know how poor I was last time we did this podcast? Like I'm pretty sure I had like $100 in my bank account. I mean, now that it's all gone into real estate, real estate, I mean, I kind of do, I'm like liquid cash for, but like, but she's building, but it's just, it's very smart. - I always shame you for having cash in your account. They're like, why do you have that much money in your account? - Where are they? I need to hang out with Bet. Who's shaming you for that? Send them my number. - So, okay. Since we last saw you, you self -published Scammer, which some people thought would never happen and happened and got written up in every important publication. - Yeah, I know. - And with overwhelmingly positive reviews. - I know, I know, incredible. It's just, yeah, it's so funny when you're like, where some people would never happen. I'm like, with some people being every listener of this podcast. But surprise, here we are. - How did you bring it over the finish line? As someone who procrastinates, and I Writing is, I, the reason I left writing was because I hated the process. Literally, it just like was soul crushing. How did you get it over? How did you like, when you're self publishing, there's no deadline. How did you finally do it? Yes. And it was actually such a problem for me. And the true answer to that question is anger. And I think sometimes anger can be a really destructive emotion. emotion, anger at Natalie. She was coming out with her first book. And it just made me really angry. And like, you know, leading up to the publication of her book, I have a lot of friends who work in publishing and work in media. And so, you know, anytime they saw something that was involved with me, they would be like, like I knew, for example, that part of the rollout for her book was she was going to be using a photo of me as a cover photo and writing a follow -up essay for the cut. And, you know, and the title of the essay was going to be like, you know, Natalie Beach revisits the Caroline Calloway essay. And, you know, to be fair to her, Maybe the person I should have been mad at as her publicist at her publishing house But you know, I think most authors don't have control of Their publishing house only in the sense of like harsh of veto power Like if they really hate a cover they can ask them to like do another draft And I think if she really hated this publicity plan, she could have said something but it just made me so angry that She was gonna come out with a book before me that she was gonna like Yeah, it was like get your own life story, bitch. Like I got it. So so her publishing date became your deadline And I said over my goddamn dead body Well, she published a book before me like I want forever to be able to say that I came out with my book first and Yeah, and that just became the deadline and that's the really honest answer I feel like getting all the good press and a bunch of those like really good reviews, some of the best ones even like the New Yorker and the Washington Post ended up reviewing our books side by side. I know. Yeah. And they were like, they like were not kind to Natalie. At one point, the New Yorker, I don't know, at this time last year, I could have quoted them more, but a year, a year onwards. It'll be almost one year in June since it happened. A year onward, the only thing that stands, that stays with me is a, is the part when the New Yorker called her prose quote unquote good enough. It was incredible. Yeah. I mean, I get it. That would be so annoying to have somebody just writing your coattails your entire life. And, But at the same time, it's like kind of-- - It's kind of both of your stories, and then it's also kind of your story. And it's, but part of what has made your story bigger is the existence of her story and the sort of way in which that was a major play. If you thought about this all as like a movie, right? - Yeah. - Like fiction. It's a major plot point. - If I can finish my thought, Nick, thank you. - I was gonna say Caroline is her own entity, whereas Natalie doesn't exist without Caroline, right? But I think Caroline's story is so much more than Natalie. And I think Nick and I, whenever we met, like doing the first episode of the podcast was really when I first met you. - Years ago. - But it's been cool just to like see how you've dealt with everything. Nick and I kind of dealt with something on like a much smaller scale, but with somebody purportedly writing a story about parts of our lives and making us characters in her book where it was totally that Marissa Meltzer Glossier book. Oh my god, no way. And like you said, you don't know who to get mad at like the writer or the publishing house. And I felt kind of the same way because it's like when we realized a huge realization for me is there's not a lot it seems that a publishing house will do to ensure that the facts are right. The veracity of the story. And the public perception is if it's in a book, then it must be true, you know? And so it was really eye -opening that whole process to see like, oh, no, this is just, it's on par with like what they would put in like a daily mail story. Like it's not, it's just fictional. Wait. And so that was really interesting to find out. So I feel for you, you're dealing with it in such a huge way. No, I'm not glad that this happened to you. Honestly, I wouldn't wish Natalie on Natalie. Like, to be, to feel like the host to like some sort of like creative parasite is a situation I would not wish on my worst enemy. But have you talked about this? Have the glossy situation on the pod. I'm so fascinated, but I don't want to. Okay, I don't want to rehash it. No, I mean, we talked about it. Actually, it's not not relevant now, because I think that the paperback just came out. So peek behind the curtain, Marissa, we had talked about. Did you know? Yeah, of course. So how long did you know? Well, in my case, she personally, no, Personally, no, personally, no. She had asked to interview me years and years ago about this about as like a expert on the beauty industry. She said she was writing a book about the modern beauty industry and wanted to like talk to me about it. I spent an hour and a half with her. She did not indicate that the book was about Glossier or Emily or anything and then we had a follow -up interview scheduled like the day after the press release for Glossier the book came out and I when I spoke to like so I kept the interview and I was like hey number one like I've never uh I've never been interviewed for a story about Glossier and Emily and I never would and so had I known that this was like what the book was about, I never would have participated. And number two, and I said, I want this off the record, but I hope that you really think about how what you believe in what you don't and how you're portraying Emily, because I think there's no one way to become like to build a $2 billion company. And I'm not sure how anyone expects someone who is an art school graduate to learn how to build a company besides trial and error and reading books. And like I had read sort of in the synopsis in the press release that it was about like, she would like, you know, like business books and started wearing, you know, Elizabeth Holmes -esque like turtlenecks or like whatever it was, like kind of dressing the part. you're 32, and all of a sudden, you've built this company. How else would you learn how to become a manager and a CEO? What's been frustrating is that Marissa in the many, many, many interviews she's given on the book and continues to, has never acknowledged that she's been anything but unbiased, which is just... Or not even... It's not about bias, but like, just never acknowledge. - Oh no, it's completely bias. - No, I know, but she's never acknowledged that, but it's more that she's never acknowledged that she's participating in like an anti -girl culture. - The only reason she got a book deal was to take down Glossier. And so it's funny that people think that like, "Oh no, this is just how the press is spinning it." It's like, "No, that is how the publishing house is promoting the book." You know, that's the press release that went out. This is a take down the takedown on Glossier. It's funny to say, and I will say this, if I had felt that the depiction of me was accurate, and then beyond accurate, particularly positive, I would be happy as a clam. And I would say this is the best written, best researched, best reported book I have ever read on this topic. Number one, like, you were like, are mistaken about so many of the facts, like the sort of fundamental facts of the story of the building of Glossier. And also, for context, she didn't even ask me for an interview until after she wrote the book. So like, what was her research process, which I'm not like, not to get a hang on my own supply, but like, I definitely like had a strong part in building the company. I mean, you know, not to like take credit for like everything, but like, I did a lot, you know, and she definitely wrote about me and she never contact me to fact check or she, but she thanked her fact checkers in the, in the acknowledgements, which was crazy because there were no fact checkers and there was a lot of like misinformation, but it was, I think, that is so crazy, like, I look so crazy, but you're right, Annie, that's a good, it's a good enough about that book. She didn't even, she didn't even read my LinkedIn to see how long I was at the company. She like, she said that like I left after we moved to the new office, like she had so many things that were just like factually incorrect that she could have her fact checkers could have done like a quick sweep to see when I was just LinkedIn, you know, I just look at the dates, just check the dates. And my brother's a journalist. So that's the other thing. It's like part of my like group of people, his friend grew up all through college. They all worked at like the Daily Texan UT and like the Austin American Statesman. My brother's been a journalist. Now he works for Bloomberg. And it's like, I know, I know how things are done. Like I know, like, ethically speaking, and she very much like styled herself as this journalist who had access to this company in this world. And here's this tell all book that is supposed to be so well researched at the level of like this New York Times journalist. Absolutely - I feel like I'm talking about this because it worked on me. I truly thought that she was like, it's a true testament to this book that I have this many books and I'm balancing my phone on this stack of books and not one of them is glossy. But I think I leaped through the introduction at an airport, maybe like when it came out or like a, I don't know, a Barnes a noble or something. I remember reading in the introduction, there was something like she was talking about how she faced this big moral quandary as a journalist, because she had known Emily for so long and so intimately and as such true friends. And now she was faced with the question of like, do I betray this trust to get the truth to the people? That was the impression I got from She was, she was friends with one person that worked at the company who is also like a, I would say kind of a sick fan for Emily and who basically painted me as like a villain and as part of like this supposed group of enablers at the company and very thinly veiled that like, oh, I was so mean to people and such a bad manager. It's just so and also took credit for my work. I mean, people were called like the social, the genius behind Glossier social media strategy. I was like, Wow, that's crazy. You scheduled the posts. Like you scheduled the post that I came up with and wrote but that's yeah, okay, like you can take credit for that. Media can't relate could never be me. No, Natalie, Natalie literally said that she wrote my whole brand and was like, yeah, exactly, exactly. So anyway, I mean, we're making this all about us and we have like, no, no, no, are you kidding me? No, I, I didn't know this. And I'm like, I'm so glad that you're talking about it on your podcast, because people need to know, like, I mean, it is tough, because you don't want to come off as bitter and like the PR, the good PR side of me says like, rise above it, don't comment. But I just think it's like, no, why do I have to like be quiet and let people just like create this character out of me that is so untrue? I think that up through now, I feel like we've talked about it. We haven't like harped on it at all. And I think it's because ultimately, it doesn't matter. You know, it's nobody read this book. And so we're kidding ourselves if we're thinking anyone cares about us. In general, that's how I go through life is like no one cares I literally like knew who Annie was in like 2012 so I had a pretty face in my Cambridge dorm room I sent you guys the photo of this right so much has changed since we did our our first interview in both of our lives but I truly I was like starstruck and when I found out that you were behind Memphis air I was like oh my - Oh my God, what am I doing here, this is crazy. I felt like I was literally a starstruck. - Okay, well, that's very nice. But generally speaking, nobody gives a fuck about anyone else besides themselves. So that's what I mean by that. But I think to Annie's original point, like this idea that you're in the New York Times in our case or New York Magazine in Natalie's Natalie's case. All of a sudden, there's this document which does not ring true to you. The general opinion is that these are the facts. It feels diminishing, and it's also discouraging. You were able to turn it into motivation to finish the book. My question is now that your book is out, yours was reviewed much better and has been much more successful. Have you put it to bed? How do you motivate yourself moving forward? I something I asked myself for years was how do you hold on to a sense of yourself as good when the world thinks you're bad? Because like with Natalie, it wasn't just like an unflattering or inaccurate portrait. It was like, she literally took all the things I ever did high out of my mind, a 23 an Adderall, erased the Adderall addiction from the record and then presented that as like the core of my character and like who I really am. And then on top of that took credit for my brand and like sort of breezed over the three years where we fell out of touch and I like wrote my Cambridge captions alone and just sort of focused on when we were writing captions for a following of 40 and bots, and then three years later when we were working on the book proposal together. And you said that it was really diminishing and discouraging, and I also found it really above all else like dislocating, like it almost sucked with like my perception of self because it was like - Yeah, of course. It was so, it's so hard to be perceived on that scale, and also there's some, I think mixed in there that you guys might relate to since you both have writing backgrounds, is like there's something about seeing it in the written word as opposed to like, I don't know, like a bad portrayal in a documentary or like even just a bad rumor. Like there's something that just sort of pulls at the heartstrings. But yes, it felt totally dislocating and it was really tough and it is hard to find new motivation to work, there's still moments where I think of some, I don't know, be doing something totally random, and like, I don't know, running errands, walking when I told myself I was gonna be jogging. I don't fucking know. And I just think of it from some new angle that had never occurred to me, some little, little granular detail that I'd forgotten, and it'll come back to me with like a flicker of rage. But for the most part, I really feel like I won. I know people often say, "It's not like there's a winner and a loser." In my mind, there was. There was a winner and there was a loser with these books. This is the honest truth is that I feel like I won and she lost. I even asked my agents at UTA to you can see how many copies like a book is sold and I haven't checked it God and probably like six months but I was really keeping an eye on it those first few months when we were both getting a lot of press and while my book was selling you know two thousand five thousand ten thousand fifteen thousand twenty thousand copies Navoli barely broke the one thousand bookmark summer and fall. And after that, I did feel a lot of peace. So that the true is their moment. I just feel like karma one in the end. Are there things you regret in the fallout from Natalie's story and the release of both of your books in terms of like how deep you got into something, the things that you revealed that you were just like it was out of anger, not out of the necessity for the story? No, I stand behind everything in my book while I was making the book. I was just trying to make the best, most compelling, most arresting, powerful art possible. And that's why I stand by it. And I think sometimes the best art is not necessarily like the most moral art or the most high road art in writing about things that no one has ever talked about before. And I know if you zoom out, that can't be done because all the emotions, you know, eventually every emotion comes back to the giant emotion wheel and we've all talked about them all, but the small little details of it, like there are certain thoughts that have just like, you know, human society has just been too puritanical to ever let you express or just like people have been too ashamed and shame so powerful. And so I really like writing around those sort of things. So I stand by it all. I don't think I always took the high road. I think I'm petty as hell and that's just me. But I definitely think that a lot of my anger was very righteous and in terms of like how I'm motivating myself now, it's tough actually. I really thought that I could put out three books in one year. Like I thought I could put up these other two books afterwards because I've just never had a firm grasp on reality, I guess. And so that won't happen on a one -year mark, but I think I can put out another two books within like 18 months and What's inspiring me now because it's not anger is I'm really interested you know, I ended up going with like self -publishing only because It sort of felt like I had to like I had to pay my dues, you know, like I got a half a million book dollar book deal when I was a senior in college and I totally fucked it up and I think very rightfully so if I went back to traditional publishing they'd be like okay here's one thousand dollars don't spend it all in one place you know and like I think that'd be totally within their right. Can you talk about what was the I mean I know that when you work with a publisher you get a lot of support right and making the actual book and marketing it when you self -published your book what were book, what were some of the biggest challenges of that? Or did it give you more control and make the process easier? Yes. In fact, that's exactly where I was going with this, is that what's inspiring me now is having that control and complete creative freedom. So I basically like culled together an absolute A -team Marvel Avengers set of editors. Like every bougie school, I had my Harvard guy who was like editor of the Crimson or whatever the fuck he did for them I had my Oxford Rhodes Scholar who is like a Rhodes Scholar three times over I had this guy who is Columbia nonfiction Cambridge English undergrad Oxford creative writing Masters, and then I also had Mike Crumplar shout out to him who was truly caught more grammatical errors then those other three highly educated men. So shout out to, I'm pretty sure you went to like somewhere in DC, shout out to Crumps for that. But I sort of, I assembled my Marvel Avengers of Editors to help me with the editing. I had the most incredible graphic designer, Sam West, who has always helped me like illustrate things to like sort of bring the Teralyn Callaway world to life. She types up the book, which is like a whole adobe illustrator thing that I don't fucking know how to do. At the very beginning, it was all me, but like now I have a lot of help from my friend Mitchell Sunderland, who's a publicist, but in the beginning it was all me and I had to do it all myself, but it was all very, like all the press I mean, like, and there's just like so many ways to, like, you reach out to people. You have relationships. I mean, like you, you You were, you're, this is, you're in the media, so you know, you know people in the media and you can call in the favors you need to call in when you need to. Totally. And when I was the only publicist working, I mean, during that era, my publicist, she was doing a great job. It was me. I was doing a great job, but it was just, You're also, you're like Teflon too. It, one of the things that I was so impressed by when, because I listened to some podcast episodes that you did to promote your book and, you know, not to bring up something negative. But I felt like some of the hosts were not so kind to you in a way that I felt like was a little unfair. But you just the way that you were so like graceful through it all despite this kind of bandwagon, I don't know, like snobby, you know, she's just like a scammer, like I don't know, just very like diluted portrayal of you by these same people that are also like using you to get a bunch of like listens when they interview you. You just doubt like it, like you almost like you were unaware that they even like were saying bad things about you. And I was like, that's so genius. I don't think people realize how special you are in that way and how much, how on your game that you are has just been really, just even from like a PR like branding person, I've just been very like, wow, like I, that's what's kept me like in like team Caroline or like has made me firmly that. I'm just like, it's very impressive, very interesting. - I gotta be so real with you. It was exhausting. The first six months when my book came out because I'm also distributing it 'cause when you self -publish, Like I'm Amazon, like I have to package the work, fill the orders, print the labels, send them out. And so like calling in favors from media people. Yes, I was, I've been saving up these favors for years. I was very well positioned, but it was just, there were not enough hours in the day because I had to like schedule the interviews. I had to message about the interviews. I had to pitch the interviews, I had to show up to the interviews, I had to schedule the podcast, I had to do the podcast, I could pass the order, I could go to the host office. I could say this now, I didn't want it to get out like back in June, 'cause I thought it would just make people email the customer service line more. In the beginning, it was me. I was answering all the customer service emails myself. - But I did that for the first 10 months of Necessaire. I was the customer service person. I was going to FedEx. I even found that it helped if I just made up a white man's name. So for a while, I was, oh god, I don't even know, like Sheldon or something. Just so that people would like respect me more. But thank you so much, Annie. And I know exactly, to be honest, it was just so hard and I appreciate that so much. And I think what really helped during that time of my life is that I just really, really believed in the merit of the book. And I just thought that I'd really made something good. And I have yet to go on a podcast with someone else who's already published a book that I really love. God, watch someone like dig something up and like DM that person being like, "See, she doesn't love your book." But I cannot think of anyone right off the top of my head who has, you know, Julia Fox was writing a book when I went on Forbidden Fruits. But like, I've never been on a podcast with someone who's written a book that I really respected. And I think at the end of the day, I feel like my purpose in this world is to make books. And I just found that fact very calming and grounding. And so whenever they didn't like something about my book, I literally could just sort of be like, "Well, I don't respect your opinion." I was like, "I don't respect your opinion. I think you're wrong." At the end of the day, like, I made what the Washington Post called a masterpiece. And like, you have a podcast. What you've realized and what you've recognized and what you've, at different times, fanned, I think very much knowingly, is like the haters. - True, but I also wanted with scammer-- - Like you're selling snake oil, you're in on the joke. - Yeah, but I feel like I leaned into that more before the book was real. - Correct, yeah, yeah, I agree. - And once the book was real, I was really, as my own publicist, was really trying to like, do an about shift of like, Now the book is real, she's delivering on her promises, and it's really good, and what's so great is to this day, you're actually, there's so many people who, both publicly and privately, who have mentioned this one interview to me, and it's so funny because I actually think they came out as the single most negative interview that I did for the whole scammer press cycle, which is-- - Okay, that's good. - I really think if I had waited to do that interview after some of the positive reviews had come out, I think they would have been much more sycophantic. I wanted to also ask you too, like the idea of you being a scammer is like very interesting to me because kind of what I've kind of realized in just talking to you one -on -one and seeing how positive you are and I don't know, I just, I feel like I realize I don't know that you're necessarily a scammer. I think that that's such a shame that that kind of maybe has stuck. I know that like you said, you were kind of playing into it too, it was like strategic. But to me, it's like, are you a scammer, or are you like Dua Lipa radically optimistic? You know? 'Cause I feel like - - So what's gonna be like, she's both, go girl, give us nothing. - No, but you know what I mean? No, no, no, I feel like you, And I also think that that's a hilarious name for her album, but I do think that like, that's what's gotten you in trouble is like you, you know, bite off more than you can chew. You have like these big ideas and you want to like see them to fruition, but like sometimes it's like not possible, you know, and like it falls short or, you know. The term scammer implies a knowing, like knowing that you're not gonna make good on the thing you're delivering. And I feel like your whole like the Caroline Callaway brand is sort of like that hapless optimist, right, who is like, can't get out from under their debt, but like, what I'm really curious about is I feel like we're dwelling in the past and what I want to know. Now that you've written scammer, it's out, it's a masterpiece. What happens next? Washington Post said it, not me. So I'm actually going to. It is a paper of record for this podcast, podcast, Washington Post, all of our readers know that. Yeah, I love it so much. Why? Because it has a really an ironclad paywall. Mm hmm. So I've actually never I've actually never been able to read a full article in Washington. I never know whether or not the review was good or not. Well, never know. But but I got There's just so much I want to say to what Annie was saying as well, but next so I'm working on a zine. I since I have my own printing press. So my long term plan is like over the next five years to put out a bunch more more titles with my own little imprint because originally I was just going to do maybe like the first three books or even just the first one with my with like self publishing because distribution is such a goddamn bitch, but it's actually so lucrative, but I think I'm going to do it for like another five years and then close down my little printing press, which I like calling it a printing press, but that does make it sound like I have some giant like newspaper, old -timey. - Imprint, like your ink. - I'm rolling the ink. Yeah, imprint is what I should be saying. Imprint, I'm just gonna close it down and like bundle all of my titles together and just sort of like sell the Caroline Calloway estate to a publisher. Sort of like selling shares and soft services, which by the way, I am so sad that I do not have a connect to get that new banana buffering bar. Or it's how like Justin Bieber sells like the public, his like people, artists are all selling their publishing, which is like - Exactly, exactly. And Annie, I love what you're saying about how you don't find me to be a scammer because I really don't, I think I'm actually like honest and naive and like warm to a fault. Like I think that it would, but I also think that there are things about me that are very contradictory of me. Like I openly say that I want more money and that I want power, and that I want to be great, that I want to be remembered after my death. I think people find that very unappealing coming from a woman's life. - From a girl. - Right, from a girl, they do not enjoy it. Let me save you some time. They do not find it palatable at all. And on top of that, I'm very openly messy. Like I'm just like, like chaos is part of my brand. And I think there are very few people with a parasocial relationship online that... Julia Fox does it well. She does it so well. She does it better than I do, to be honest. Well, because I think she's not trying to be a... She wrote a book, but like you're a writer and there's like a different internal and external life with that she wants to be an entertainer. So I feel like... Yeah, and I do think that her chaos is like something that's so brilliant about it and why she does do it better than me, is that she's found a way to like, polish being unpolished. Do you know what I mean? Like, she has a stylist and she's like wearing, I don't know, like a rubber chicken bra or whatever the fuck she, like, it's chaotic, but it's like, too perfect. - It's intentional. - It's hair done, it's nails, it's full beat, it's paparazzi, but for me, my chaos is like, we're in the junk room and like, it looks like little TV house behind me. Like it's not like no stylist helped me do this, you know, like sort of vibe. And I think that is just like very, I think I'm just fundamentally a messy person and people who are usually this messy just don't share it online. But um, but you know, I'm, yeah, I like that about myself, but I had to learn to like those things about myself through absolute fire and brimstone PR help. Very, you wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me sort of vibes. Like, it was really, really, really hard. - No, and I know that struggle too of wanting to like, oh, they're calling me, like for me, for example, like throughout my career, I've managed so many people. I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of people and I have great relationships with most of them and you know I think I'm very well respected for amongst the people that like actually have worked with me and then there's people that you know like this glossy book that want to like say like I'm a you know bitch or whatever shouldn't use that word but you know want to paint me as this like I don't know what like a bitch um that like I don't even know what their perception is of me like what I actually do for work and if they find any married and that, but part of me working through that, I mean, that really causes a lot of pain for me because I don't think I'm a bitch. I think that I'm like, I try my hardest to be like kind of people. And so dealing with this part of me is like, okay, fine, I'll just own it. Like, I'll be a hard ass. And then I realized, no, I can actually be like, I don't have to accept that, I can actually reject that. And that, and I'm realizing that feels better than just kind of like embracing this. Oh, well, that must be true of like this person said it and this person said it. And this person had a bad experience with me or whatever. And maybe I should just own it and it'll feel better. I should just be honest with myself. And so that was like a huge struggle for me is like, am I a bitch or am I not a bitch? Am I like a sweet girl, the sweetest girl, you know, or am I like, you know, and so I'm at this point where it seems like you're also at this point where you're rejecting this idea of like, I'm not a scammer, actually, this is, you know, well, - You know something really, oh my God, I, it is not every day for me that I feel like my specific life path is of use to someone that I care about. Like my friends are getting married and having kids and I'm like, if you get canceled, call me. But like, and you need to know, you need to know that rejecting them does not mean correcting them. Like absolutely reject their idea but where you need to make a distinction is you cannot I reject the perception of me as this like really self -centered erratic vindictive frivolous vapid nothing nothing behind the eyes sort of mean girl that Natalie made me out to be and I rejected that personally. But where you will lose the battle is correcting them. Like you reject them, but don't correct them. Like, I called my first book scammer. And I just sort of, I did it for SEO, I did it for my own sanity to take back the word. But I let my art speak for itself. And like, I also didn't try to waste too much time on like trying to do press that was like, actually, I'm a really nice person, you know, I think what you have to do is just absolutely internally reject it and just instead of correcting them, just go make things that speak for itself. And I also thought about telling you this earlier when we were talking about glossy stuff, which I find so fascinating your experience with it. I think you did exactly the right. my PR publicist me, like putting on my publicist hat, I think you did exactly the right thing, ignoring it at the time. It's funny because you guys were the host and she was the parasite, but at the same time, the host was like so much bigger than you. It wasn't like the Annie Craybomb, like brand or the name of the actor. - No, yeah. And I wasn't even mentioned in the book, so it is funny that it's affecting me so much 'cause I'm like a - Well, no, that's the joke is we're like a tiny part of like a big narrative. - You were a tiny part of the whole thing. And so like, if you had been the whole host, I would have said, you need to lean into it. You need to just like, I have this part in Scammer where I talk about an approach to going viral in a bad way that I really do. Just like everything in the book really to stand by. My advice for surviving going viral in a negative way is pretty similar to any sort of the Coast Guard standard advice for surviving a riptide. Like what you don't want to do is struggle. Like you'll expend all your energy too soon, too quick, you'll drown, you have to swim into the current and like just let it see where it takes you and only when it's subsided can you like make your way back to land. But that advice only applies to like, if you are the one going viral in a negative way, like your experience was very much glossy, it was going viral in a negative way. And you got sort of like a inside eye of the hurricane viewpoint to it all, which is so fascinating. And I'm just, I relate so much to everything you said. But if it had been you and your names going viral, I would have said lean into the press, like, don't try to, don't try to fight it, just go with it, don't stay silent or else it'll just like, you know, it'll be the only narrative and you can't try to like ride this wave to your advantage. You did the right thing, not talking about it at the time, but now that her like whole press cycle has totally run its course, like not a goddamn person is writing an article about this book a year later. Now, I would say say your piece because it won't add to anything that she's doing press wise. And all it will do to serve is to like, let people see what it was like for you and to just hear your side of the experience. Can I say two things as the oldest person on this chat, which I feel like Carol, I'm are you 30 32 32. Okay. I'm 40. So I have no years, which is not insignificant. Yes. But I know. But anyway, I have eight years on you. And I have two things that I it's not advice, but it's helpful things that I've been told. I remember a few years ago, I was talking to like a potential like money manager investment advisor, because it was one of the many times I thought that I was going to have a uh, liquidity moment as they like to call it in the biz, it, you know, short end of the short story, it didn't happen. But anyway, I remember talking to this guy and he had like a minimum that he, you know, for to accept you as a client, he had a minimum amount of money you had to have liquid. I did not nearly reach that number. And I was sort of like making excuses to him and he was like, listen, you're 36 or whatever I was at the time, you're 37. I'm not taking you on because of what you've done up until this point. I would be taking you on because you're not even halfway through your career and you've already co -founded three companies. And it was like a good-- Yeah. I had done the things that we're going to, like I had done the investing. I had invested, right? like I had done, I had worked the 24 hours a day, seven days a week for no money for, you know, whatever 15 years I had all my equity. And this was sort of like, and now I, now I wait. And like the good sort of like the high points of my career were behind me in a way. And I think it kind of reset my speedometer, no, not the odometer in that like actually this could be mile zero and my wealth or my success could still be like in the future and I think that is like one thing I wanted to say because you're still really young and like the thing that ultimately you know is your masterpiece may not be the thing that you know you're notable or you know like notorious I'm not trying to pro stagnation with this I want to get better no but like I'm just saying like I think that it could be daunting or sort of like overshadowing to have that early success, because then you forget that like, you're still, you know, you could be writing into your 80s, right? So like, you're one third of the way through your career, whatever it is. And like that, that's like a pretty powerful, like reset, right? Of like, okay, like, this is just the beginning. And then the other thing is like, I had to learn, and this is more for Annie, but like, It took three companies really it took the third company to realize this about myself Because I think part of like startup culture and like CEO culture is that you sort of have to like Fake it till you make it want to be good at all the things to start a company and to start a brand and After doing home court most recently I realized I'm really good in years zero through two. I do not want to manage a team, nor am I good at managing a team. Actually, when the cracks in the foundation of Nick Axelrod start to show, when it's like running a marketing, it's all the things that you need to go from years two through five, right? Or something like that. And I had so much so much shame and internalized hate because I was being judged for not being good at all the things. And that's why I had been shunned by this person or kicked out by this person or had a relationship fall apart with this person because it was something bad within me. It literally took starting my third company, you know, to realize that it's actually a skill to know what you're good at and to know what you're not good at. And like, in the future, we don't have to be good at everything. I can start a company because I am an ideas person and I can motivate people and I can connect the right people. I can assemble the right team. I can I'm comfortable with like uncertainty and I'm probably too comfortable with risk and all of those sorts of things. But like I am not the person who is going to pull five all nighters in a row to like create a deck for investors because I think that's fucking dumb and it's a waste of my time and I need to sleep to like fuel my creativity. And you have to find the people who really celebrate and are acknowledging like the things that you're good at. And it's oftentimes is someone you work with, maybe not the person you're co -founding with because that's a fraught relationship, but someone in your orbit who's seen you work and knows what you're good at. And just like, that's sort of who you have to surround yourself with, not the people, yeah, like the only people who've really gotten me are like, never my co -founders because it's such a complicated relationship. It's always been someone who's more of an observer. - The best advice that I got from a very, very successful business person. - Not this episode becoming like your most valuable episode ever, it's like, we're just going around. - I think it might be. - It's like the best advice we can, I mean, of course, mine's about cancellation. I was like, let me give you the best advice for this very specific scenario that will not important. I hear you and I raise you some advice that you that everyone can take to their deathbed. Annie go off. What is it? That's really ring true for me. It was don't get into a 5050 partnership with anyone. And it could you know, percentages whatever fuck it, but don't get into a partnership with someone where they need you more than you need them. You know, there's, it's one thing to like hire a contractor and like, you know, because they have a skill set that you don't have and you do need them, but don't give them 50 % of your business or like, don't make it, like if it's not an equal give or take relationship, don't set up, don't set it up that way. It really like helps me edit like going forward in the future, like what type of partnerships I enter and what type of skill sets really I have and I don't have and what I need and what I don't need. And I thought that was such good advice because when people start companies, they often think it's like, but Annie, like what I'm saying to you is like, and maybe this is me projecting, but like you're creative and you're an ideas person. You maybe aren't the best fucking manager and like you have a really high, you know, let me finish. And you have a really high bar that you set for Bar that you set for you and if you and if you disappoint you if you disappoint you and or you don't meet that Bar you're like very direct and I've been on the receiving end of your feedback and it's not beautiful It's not nurturing mama bird feedback. It's like This doesn't work. This was supposed to happen. It didn't happen. Whatever it is And like that, you can understand how that makes other people say, it's, it's, it's easy to say. Yeah, you're going to have people that you work better with than people that you don't. But I think the people that throughout my career, who I'm still friends with to this day and like worked with for quite a long time, like we worked great together. And like they really responded to my communication style. So I don't think it's fair just like write somebody off as like a bad like, I'm not writing any, I'm just saying about like what you want to do. I'm not a fuck what other people are saying. I'm saying like, what part of starting a brand makes Annie happy? Also, can I just say that just a little Sheldon, yes, Caroline, the fake name that I use to answer customer service emails, so people perceive me as a white man. Sheldon would never get the feedback that he was not Pop a bird enough with his right like I was told to put emojis in my emails to make people feel more comfortable What man would you told exactly a professional setting that is insane? I? I've always seen you as an artist. Do you do any art me too? Yes. Are you working on any art right now? Well, I'm writing Not being a manager is a compliment from Caroline and Nick by the way like We're literally calling you like that we're giving you the highest compliment, which is that you're No, no, no, I'm just sensitive to that because it seemed like that was the thing that like people like to say about me as I'm a which I'm like Dozens and dozens and dozens of people and like maybe like and you're gonna get a percentage of people that imagine if that was on your tombstone Andy imagine on your tombstone. No, it would be like managed dozens of people. No one is going down in history for having managed hundreds of, successfully managed hundreds of people. Like I'm just saying, like you can let that go. I think too, but I think it's a shame in, in, in business culture too, where they do, they oftentimes write off people that are creatives as like having like no strategic or operational abilities. And I just like, I think you're not acknowledging that, which you're not. Well, I think I'm actually I think the thing that I'm good at is marrying the two and so I don't know I just and so that can be frustrating is like when you're basically told no This isn't for you like you don't need to see the finances. Exactly like, you know So that you just put that in a way that I hadn't been able to which I think is like I'm not good at running a Me like a staff meeting or whatever or not a staff meeting But like I'm not good at running like a calendar, a content marketing calendar. You're also saying that you don't have any strategic value. And so it's like, I can't admit to that little thing in the world of startups. Because if I admit to that thing, then I got taken out of everything that's like operational or business. And like there are-- - Yeah, they treat you like you're this like wild card, like kooky creative that like-- - What I'm just saying is like in the eight years that I have, it's You can't control that and just fall drill down on the things that you are good at the glossy perception of You it's we're not even a year away from it. Annie. It is totally normal that you are Hurt by people thinking that you're a bitch or not a good manager. I promise you I'm more hurt by the one person that I know, like, did all the like, yeah, of course, she's like made it her whole personality. I could apparently she's been telling this story for years that like, I like that it never happened, which I didn't I didn't know about until later. And also, like, I've done a lot to help this person through their whole career. And so that that was that's the most hurtful part for me that they would be so, you know, like, I don't know. And it felt like it wasn't even vindictive. It felt like it was more strategic. so this person could take credit for things that I did. You know what I mean? To grow their own career, which I don't know if that's a better feeling or not, but anyway, not to make this all about me. - No, no, no. I don't know if you remember this last time, years ago when I came on this podcast, Nick was saying something to, and to Nick's credit, it was something like, well, you haven't written a book and like, when are you gonna, I don't even know what it was. It was something that Annie-- - I was mansplaining. - Where Annie was like, Interjected and she like literally like interjected and defended me and I just remember Appreciating it so much because whatever you were talking to me about was just really Tender at the time for me and I just felt very Flustered and sort of like backed into a corner and I just wasn't expressing myself well and Annie you're just like in two years and another two years when we do episode number three and somehow top the incredible gold that this all -time episode has been. When we do that, you will literally, you'll be so over it. Of course, if you manage a bunch of people, some people aren't gonna like it. A hundred percent of people never like everything. You know, you're just gonna be-- - Who likes their boss? I mean, it's like-- - Who likes their boss? Like these truths, You know them intellectually now, but I promise you they will sink into your bones and you will just like roll your eyes at this But I'm so sorry that it's still so fresh now, and it it's just Should be fresh. It's been less than a year. It'll take it'll take another year I'll be fine. I'll be fine. You will. Oh my god. Absolutely. But like it hurts and that's just so True and real and normal and natural when things don't feel fair. It's just like such a discomforting place to be, you know? - It just, absolutely. - My question is, you want to stick to books, but it's like, I know that people have been knocking down your door being like, how can we get the movie rights? Like what? - Do you want to hear something about gossip? - Yeah. - Okay, okay. - Always. - I've said this before on podcasts and interviews, and I say it in the book. So it's unfortunately not an eyewitness beauty exclusive. I mean there were so many outrageous things I said in the book like lying on my Cambridge application. Like that got like a whole two -week news cycle in the UK. But like this little snippet never really got, it just got overshadowed. So you know how Margaret Quali and Jack Antonoff are married. Their marriage is what broke up the whole movie deal. So Margaret and Lena knew each other through Quentin Tarantino's movie Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Yes, they were both in it. I remember those things filmed way before. They're friends from all that. Also, Margaret's sort of like writerly adjacent. I remember all those dance videos she did with Miranda July. She has a temperament part as well with writerly soul. I really like her. So-- Namely, Jack Antonoff and Lena Dunham used to date. Date for seven years. God, I should have started with that fact, but that's like so common. No, no, no, we know that, but like my mom doesn't, so I just need to-- Yeah, if you actually-- that truly is the fact that one should start with explaining this to me. Nothing else is going to make sense. I think I could have produced my first book sooner than 32, had not my Best friend like sold me out so publicly and then my father's rotting body have been found like less than 48 hours later It was a lot to heal from his suicide the betrayal the public humiliation at the time Didn't just kept having to put one foot in from the other because as soon as this her art cut article goes out She's optioning it. She signs at CAA. She's optioning it in Hollywood. optioning it in Hollywood. The day I give my father's eulogy, I have to get on a red eye to LA out of Dulles. I go back to my hometown in Virginia, straight to LA, and I have to take meetings and I personally have to find it within myself to reach deep down inside and take these back -to -back meetings and really convince these people that I'm smart, that I haven't written a book, but I could be a good writer and very eloquent and that the the real story is my life Not Natalie's she doesn't have the right to the Caroline Calloway life story yet She was getting a movie deal for your story Yeah, she's getting a movie deal and she actually she ended up selling it to Ryan Murphy and Which sucks because you know I? Feel like it was my life, but she actually - That's so crazy. I don't know if I could ever get over that. - She called me like a few days after the day my father's body was found. I posted about it because honestly, because I just sort of thought if I posted about it, that the press might cut me a fucking break. And like see me as a little bit of I mean and honestly I needed a fucking break like I I was drowning and so I post about it Natalie calls me later that day it's been like a day and a half since her article came out and she tells me that she will forgive me which is something that she so during my like recovery from Adderall I did like the AA, I didn't do all 12 of the steps, but I did do, I think it's step number four. I went to therapists that like specialized in like AA -informed addiction recovery. And step number four, one of the steps is making amends. And you make a huge catalog for every person in your life of all the ways you wronged them and harmed them during your addiction. And you offer them an apology that is not for you, but for them. So whether or not they forgive you is not the goal, it's to give them peace. And that's the whole premise of it. So I had done this with her. And in fact, in her cut article, she very smartly says, "The last time I saw Caroline, "she gave me used Glossier makeup "and a check that bounced." - Okay, and she's complaining. (laughing) - I was like, still good. But I was like, "Girl, you have to try this new brand that was started 30 seconds ago called Glossier." I didn't like 2000, I don't know, 13 or something, but she was careful to say the last time I saw Caroline and not the last time I spoke to Caroline because that would have been when I was making amends as part of the addiction recovery thing. She calls me. And I thought she was calling because she found out that my dad had died and that she was sorry. She calls me because she wants to bundle my life rights to her Ryan Murphy option. Because if he can get our life rights together, like both the Natalie Beach and the Caroline Calloway story, he'll give her $1 million. And if he only gets the Natalie Beach story, I think her option was going to be like $50 ,000. And so she was like one of the big things with the making amends was like She didn't forgive me basically and she was like I will If you do this for me now and like give me your life rights emotional blackmail or Absolutely, yes, so this is going on in the background my manager is trying to talk me out of that deal I'm flying to LA and it was only was only when I went to Harvard to go see some of-- my dad's intelligence was always the easiest part of him to love. And the most healing thing I did was go back to Harvard. But I got a call while I was there that Emma Roberts was getting attached for the Ryan Murphy thing. And I was like, well, that's great. I love that she would play me. I love Emma Roberts. And my manager, Adam, at the time, No, she'd play Natalie like this is like the Natalie Beach story like we don't know who would play you And that for me was just the turning point. I get on the plane to LA It's my job to like land a deal as big as this Ryan Murphy thing. I End up somehow getting Lena Dunham attached to write and direct Margaret quality is playing me Caitlin Deaver Smart is playing Natalie. Hold on. - Who's playing you? - Margaret Quali. - Okay, got it, got it. - Yes, and Caitlin Deaver is, she was a professional book smart, she's playing Natalie, Margaret and Caitlin are friends in real life, so it was perfect. We all had brunch, and in fact Margaret had just broken up with Pete Davidson, like literally hours ago, like I'm not even sure it was in the press yet, but she was telling us over brunch, and she had this enormous black eye and originally Lena wanted Caitlyn to play me and Margaret to play Natalie. She had this enormous black eye and I was like, I held it in like halfway through a brunch. But finally I was like, I am so sorry. But like, why do you have a black eye? Like what is going on here? Like what happened? And she was like honestly and I was like, yes, absolutely honestly. She was like, my boyfriend broke up with me and I punched myself in the face. And I believe her, like she's unhinged in the best way possible and that was them and I deadpan I didn't I didn't put it together that it was Pete Davidson And I'd never heard of Margaret before at the time So I'm like more starstruck by Caitlin and I said to her deadpan. Oh my god That's so sad. You should call your dad and talk to him about it And and she was the only one who laughed so hard. So we hit it off. We're doing the script. Margaret meets Jack Antonoff, because Lena introduces them. Lena finishes the script. Finishes the script. There's a whole Athelena Dunham script about you. I'm a very apologize story that honestly we'll probably never see the light of day. Margaret, so she had come over to my apartment. I knew that she was going through boy stuff. I had Some eligible male friends in New York that I was like willing to set her up with and overnight she goes from like wanting to be set up and like really looking for someone to being like, you know what, I don't need anyone. And I was like, oh my God, are you seeing someone? She's like, no, I'm just focusing on myself. That turned out to be Jack Antonoff and I swear to God that somewhere I thought to myself, if this motherfucker does not marry that motherfucker, I'm I'm gonna be so pissed, but they got married and I'm you know, it was true love So I think true love should win at least they got married How terrible would it have been if it wasn't true love and that the whole script just fell apart for like and they just broke up And it was just like you know and they moved on and how long had Lena and Jack been broken up at that point a long Time I think I would say like maybe around the amount of time that they dated, I think there are just, there are some loves though that just like never leave you. Like I had my - - Also the pandemic end. - They started dating after the pandemic, but yeah, she's in London, she got remarried, but I don't know, like my boyfriend from Cambridge, I know part of me is like get over it, but part of me is like my Cambridge boyfriend. If one of my friends who I was also going into business with started dating him. Like I would just be like, I'm sorry, I have other friends and I have other businesses I would like to pursue. You know, like, what have you said about the book on the podcast? I'm sure there's so many people who will be supportive and that will just be so helpful, especially when you just get like a little stalker, a little bit of a dead end. And more than anything, some of the advice I ever got about since, since this is the advice episode where we all take it the best advice ever. The best time to start marketing a book is two to three years before it comes out. I mean, I've been, I mean, I feel like I've been talking about it since like 2019, like literally right when I left glossy, it was like, everyday typing. So, so basically, like we started working, we started like, he was basically like pitch this to me, my studio, like I had to go through the whole process 'cause they were trying to develop, they were trying to develop a horror movie. And he was like, oh, I realized you should write this 'cause they had other writers like pitch for it or whatever. And then I pitched for it and it was right when the writer strike happened. And he was like, okay, we wanna move forward. And this also like sided with when I left my last company. And so I was like, this is like, this is my life plan, you know, it was all figured out. And then the writer strike happened and he was like, okay, well, it's not a good idea to like take a writing project right now for obvious reasons. Like you would be a scav. I was like, no problem. I want to like, take a break and go on vacation or whatever. But I'd been like developing it on my own and working on, you know, I had to change it to a body whore movie, when it was originally not that at all. And I was like happy with it. I was, and I love horror. I love horror. Listen, I had so much fun. - Well, that's good, that's good at least. - But I was struggling with the narrative. It got a little convoluted, and then we basically, I had to go no contact with him. But it worked out well because we, I had just gotten the contract, and so I was supposed to, we were supposed to figure it all out and do the negotiations and sign it and everything. And then, and then we, uh, yeah. God's timing is always right. Okay. I am so glad. Like you said, it's like, it's nice to go back to the original like intention of like the story and like the work. Yes. Even though, even though it was like such a cool opportunity. Annie's actually quoting me not from earlier in this episode, but between a phone call that we had. I've been playing a little bit dumb about the book because I can't use my phone to text her about how to ask behind the scenes how much she's shared with her audience and I really I will say it now with my whole chest I am so glad that this art that you are going to make is back to its original form and that you're not trying to like shape -shift it to get money or to even just like include your partner at the time. I'm so glad it will be fully you. And I really want to even just give your listeners the tiniest little taste of the fact that you're working on such a cool book that you're writing because one, I think it's great to have encouragement and I'm sure that you have a community that you've been doing eyewitness beauty for for so long. I was working on a screenplay about my mom's life. My mom has a very interesting, very interesting life story. And I've been researching that too. So I just, I basically just needed to, I need to focus. And so now I'm going to focus on my own book and hers can wait when I'm like ready. I feel like I'll have a better chance of selling her the story of her that I want to end up directing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. This first book has a built -in press cycle, whereas, like, unfortunately, like, your mom's story should, but doesn't. And so, yeah, yeah. No, that, that's definitely just, like -- She is way more interesting than me. It's like, really, it's, it's such a shame that people don't know more. It's, it's -- That's, that's honestly -- She is the craziest. Yeah. That's, that's so upsetting to me. Imagining my mom having a better life story than mine is, like, actually, like, frankly emotionally disturbing to me to me and very upsetting, but it was funny to think about like in hindsight, I was like, my mom was so cool about me like going to shows and stuff when I was younger. Like I would go to like crazy punk shows when I was in high school and I was like, I remember at the time thinking, I'm not running into a lot of friction here, you know, and then come to find out about like her whole life when she was my age, she was like hanging out with like the Grateful Dead and Waylon Jennings and Willie Nelson and like, I mean, just the craziest shit, but. Dude, you were saying earlier how you should never need someone or like you should never split 50 % with someone who needs you more than you need them. I thought that was such good advice. It's funny because I recently left my like business manager and went into business with people who could help me do like all the fulfillment, printing stuff, just like all the logistics of a customer service, and I'm giving them 50%, not permanently, not for the rest of my life, but certainly like the next year, two years as I like, learn to manage it on my own. And right now, I desperately need them, like they have other businesses and they don't like, I'm not their main source of income, but like They are the glue holding my life together so that I can make more books. But I just think that's such a good metric for when this relationship, when it's time to reset and redistribute the finances, it will literally be because I don't need them more than they need me. I think what I realize is women too are so programmed to be nice and fair and like any conversation around like finances or responsibilities or ownership gets very like, oh, like, I don't want to deal with it. Let's just make it easy. And will this like split it 50 % and like, we're not allowed to have any of those tough conversations around like, okay, what am I bringing to the table? What are you bringing to the table? What are you showing up to work doing every day? What am I showing up to work doing every day? And I get really uncomfortable taking credit for things that I did in my career. I don't know if you deal with that either or as well, but I don't think it's imposter syndrome. I don't know what it is, but it's just, I just, I don't want people to feel like mad at me or like think that I'm, and yeah, and so it kind of prevents you from doing that and just advocating for yourself is really what it's about. Just even back to what Nick said about like, when he was like talking about talking about your managerial style and was like and you didn't always say it in like the nice mama bird sort of way like I just really stuck with me that no one would ever be like you didn't say this and like a good papa bird sort of way like there's just no male equivalent for the standards by which we judge women in the workplace and I have never had a resume in my whole life I've been professionally here Caroline Howard since the day I graduated college, but so I really, I've felt it so much, and I've never even been to an office. I don't even know what "office casual" means. Oh my God. No, it's better that way. And listen, all office spaces are different, and all the rules around office politics get rewritten every half an hour, it seems. And so I feel like the whole system is just meant to terrified. The people that are hungriest and willing most willing to use others for their own self -interest are the ones that like get ahead and they're the ones that get their companies ahead and that's why the system works the way it does and that is fair quote -unquote within the system but I think what we do have in common in terms of being creatives is like we're really sensitive. The worst feeling in the world is feeling mistreated and the world is operating in an unfair way and I wish I could just like accept that like that's just how things work but like that is where the most pain for me comes in like terms of like my professional career you know yeah I am and this is so fucked up the only thing that like helped to me was like I talked about earlier how like the karma of those articles felt like it was really like I felt like I won and she lost and I think I felt like that was like morally fair for how we both handled the situation and it made me it restored my face in the fact that like you can take shortcuts and you can you know push people's head under water so that you like you can get air like climb on top of them but like eventually it'll come back around but it was really really really hard in those intervening years before I like saw that balance be restored. I do believe in karma or at least, you know what, I'm not sure. Karma makes it sound too spiritual. I do believe that in the long run, just being a good person and living by your personal ethics when it comes to your career, I really believe that that work and I've seen at work. But there were years in between seeing at work where I just had to have faith and like you're in the have faith years and you just, they're hard. They're so hard. Because it just makes you feel like you're like, why do we even do it? They're like, it's so unfair. And why, you know, should I just keep like, you know, just you spiral, but just have faith and just keep trying to do to living by your morals and trying to shut out the rest of the world. But, okay, wait, before we end, because I actually have to go meet my business partners to talk about this zine. But, you know, I was thinking we could each share one more piece of really good advice, because I think if I were a listener to this podcast, and even as a participant in this podcast, usually when I go on podcasts, like I, what you get out of them is like good conversation with interesting hosts. But very rarely do you leave a podcast thinking, damn, that's some really good advice that I should like really implemented my life long term, you know. And so I feel like advice has been one of the best part of this episode for me. But maybe we could each share one or two pieces of advice that we think are really good before we go. posture. No one even thinks about it and you know I always think that someday I'm gonna fix my posture. There is no it's your every day is the ongoing Pilates course of your life like you need to like the time to build abdominal strength and shoulder strength is every day every second is an opportunity to have better posture that's a little one another one if you're ever worried about what to serve for a dinner party, you can feed a bunch of people by just getting a rotisserie chicken, two baguettes, and making a salad. If you're lucky, your local grocery store will have a hot bar, in which case get some roasted vegetables as well. But no worries if there's no hot bar, just one rotisserie chicken, a salad with a little French vinaigrette, olive oil, red wine ginger, Dijon mustard, salt and pepper, salad, rotisserie chicken, and then you must heat up the baguettes in the oven and wine and your set, and that really should take no more than the time it takes to whisk up the dressing or heat the baguettes in the oven. And then the last one I would say is some of the best advice I ever got is stop wondering what they think about you and start wondering what you think about them. And I think this can be applied to dating, but also to friends. Because I think, I mean, obviously on dates, sometimes I feel myself like participating in the date from the male gaze. And I don't think women should be ashamed when they slip into that. We're so conditioned to do that our whole lives. And the only way to stop doing it is to first acknowledge the behavior when it's happening. But yeah, just stop wondering what he's thinking of you and start wondering what you think of him. And also with friends, a new group of friends you wanna be a part of, don't wonder what they think of you. Wonder what you think of them. Okay, you go, just list off some good advice and it'll be the perfect little capstone. - Yeah, you just reminded me of one that I kind of like had to learn myself the hard way, which is I remember being like right out of high school or like my senior year and like meeting people at UT and colleges and I don't know, just I was meeting a bunch of new people who I wanted to and I wanted to enter into this like brave new world and like reinvent myself and you know, whatever you go off to college and you know when people and especially in Austin you go to a city like Austin obsessed with music and everybody wants to like talk about oh well have you heard of this band like they're playing here and like oh this band and I remember I would and it's not just with music but with so many other things I remember smiling and nodding and being like yeah yeah I love them you know and kind of like bullshitting your way to like into acceptance on these like stupid trivial factoids that you actually know nothing about or like you're talking to like somebody who's really smart and they bring up like oh they bring up an article in some magazine you never heard of yeah one day I was just like no I don't know what that is tell me and it just it made my life it just opened up whole new first of all you actually have meaningful conversations with people the worst thing that could happen the reason why people say they know something when they don't is because they want to be accepted by this person And it's like, what's the worst that could happen? This asshole is going to be like, oh, you've never heard of blah, blah, blah, blah, like, oh, Susan. And then you're just like, OK, cool. Then now I know that that person sucks. But most of the time, somebody is just going to want to tell you about it because they brought it up because they like it. Even if you get away with it, you're shooting yourself in the foot because you know that you're lying, that you're being a fraud. Even in turn, it just chips at your own self -esteem and like connection to self so like nobody's winning in that situation where you don't do. Embrace the ignorance is basically what I'm saying like know what you like not really know what you don't know but be honest about it that can help you with any part of life. That's so that's such such a good one. I also live by the I don't know who are they but I definitely put my teeth on it, not with the bands in Austin, but with like, I don't know, like philosophers in Cambridge, like people would just be like quoting things. And I'd just be like, I've actually never read the remembrance of things past or whatever that large series that Proust did. And I love that and I fully support. I'm sure there are a lot of people who listen to this podcast who look up to you. So they don't need my But it's it's here. It's here anyways. My last one that I'd say is oh bring cigarettes to parties bring cigarettes to parties. I'm really bad at parties socializing or no I'm not I need to stop being like I'm bad because this is what happens but I'm a bad manager I'm actually great at parties but sometimes I get a little socially awkward I don't know how to like break into conversation I don't know how to meet new people and even if you don't smoke if you have cigarettes and a lighter at a party or like a social event, it opens a whole new opportunity for you to like go meet new people. I'm going to start doing that one. That one's so smart. And you know, just when you were catching yourself saying, I'm bad at parties, a really useful thing to change your concept of yourself and also other perceptions of yourself. I found this when I was like going through addiction, like I was not on time to a single thing for like two to three years of my life. Like I was, I was hours late. Like I would show up hours late. Like it was like drug addict behavior. When I tried to like get back to being like a normal, responsible ish person to talk about yourself as I used to be a person who was really bad at parties. I used to always be so late to just say that to say it used to be is so good for changing your perception of yourself. AA, which I did not go to, has a phrase that's like self -esteem is built through esteemable acts, which I think can be kind of, it's not wrong by any means, but I think a more specific version of it that my therapist specifically told me is that self -esteem is built by behavior that validates your own feelings while causing the least amount of harm to those around you. And I thought that was so good because I think behavior that like validates your own internal reality be it anger or insecurity or ignorance and just embracing that with the caveat of like obviously if like you're angry you don't need to let go running down the street. I was kind of losing some amount of harm to those around you, but I love that and that really helped me. It's so true, like I honestly, when I behave in that way, I almost feel myself like speaking from lower in my chest. The posture sorts itself out, you know, I'm ready to buy those rotisserie chickens and host a dinner party. Like I've always felt like that was really good. - We are produced by Jonathan Corman and we are edited by A .J. Mosley and we are on Patreon at patreon .com /iwitnessbeauty where we post our video episodes and we respond and talk to people and have fun over there. And we will be back next week. Goodbye! Great episode! Thanks for listening!