PB-E14 DISCUSS 052824 ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Hi, Prison Breakers. We're back. Hi, Paul.

Paul Adelstein: Hello, Sarah. You were

Sarah Wayne Callies: right. Always right. About what am I right about?

Paul Adelstein: Oh, uh, the last episode, End of the Tunnel, was in fact the mid season finale, as we call it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Ah, yeah, I wondered.

Paul Adelstein: And this episode, The Rat, didn't air until March of 2006. End of the Tunnel aired in November of 2005, so March.

The show kept fans waiting for four good long months.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's a serious tease. I wonder what was going on in that time.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, in the world or, um.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wonder why, was it like football that preempted us? Was it?

Paul Adelstein: No, because football ends in Oh, right, with the Super Bowl in like February. Yeah, yeah, and we were on Monday.[00:01:00]

Yeah, no, it wouldn't have been football. I think they just, oh, I mean, yeah, I wonder what they put on. But I'll bet they, I'll bet before they came back, and I think I do remember this from season one, they played the entire first 13.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Paul Adelstein: To get people caught up. I mean, even maybe in the time slot.

I don't, that part, I don't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's really interesting.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, yeah. Big tease. Big, big, big tease. Um, okay. Because there was no, sorry, right. I'm fuzzing into my head on this one. They had to play it again because there was no DVD back then. There was no streaming to catch up on. No on

Paul Adelstein: demand, no Apple TV.

This was all

Sarah Wayne Callies: apartment TV. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Yeah. If you, if you wanted to get caught up on this show, you had to wait for them to show it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's a

Paul Adelstein: good, that's a good point. Crazy. Crazy.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, what do you think, calisthenics?

Paul Adelstein: Yes please, start us off.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. This week's episode is The Rat, written by Matt Olmsted, directed by Kevin Hooks, who would go on to direct many episodes of the show.

Yes, he'd be our producing

Paul Adelstein: director.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our [00:02:00] producing director, um, uh, it debuted, as Paul just said, March 20th, 2006, to 9. 28 million viewers. It faced off against Wife Swap on ABC, it's new, King of Queens on CBS. And now I just saw

Paul Adelstein: an ad that there is a deal or no deal island show, yeah, I don't, I don't even know what that means.

I don't know what that means either. It's like some survivor, deal or no deal combo, I don't know, it looks super intense and competitive and like people bleeding. The recap from imdb. com reads, with the pipe to the infirmary replaced and Lincoln's life hanging in the balance, Michael must rethink his plan to escape.

And save his brother's life. A fellow inmate may hold the key to preventing Lincoln's execution.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Some of the things going on in the world that week, uh, March 15th, the United Nations established the UN Human Rights Council to address human rights abuses [00:03:00] globally. I wonder if one of those human rights abuses includes the death penalty.

On March 28th, the Supreme Court of the United States heard arguments in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which asserted that the Bush administration's use of military tribunals to try detainees at Guantanamo Bay violated the Geneva Convention international law. And on March 26th, Scotland, became the first part of the United Kingdom to ban smoking.

In smoking, that was, in enclosed public spaces and workplaces.

Paul Adelstein: In cultural news, March 12th saw the premiere of the final season of the show that changed it all, The Sopranos, on HBO. And on March 21st, 2006, Twitter creator Jack Dorsey Launched the social media app with his tweet just setting up my Twitter.

Twitter spelled T W T R. He was really saving those 140 characters. That is quite a week and I'm glad there's no more human rights violations in the world. [00:04:00] That obviously worked.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yep.

Paul Adelstein: And Guantanamo has been shut down.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And Twitter was net good for humanity.

Paul Adelstein: Yep.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Everything's

Paul Adelstein: great.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I feel like, didn't that first tweet, didn't an NFT of that first tweet sell for like 100, 000 or something?

I

Paul Adelstein: mean, that tracks, I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Here's what I really hope. I really hope that five years from now, someone finds this podcast and is listening and goes, what's an NFT? And that they've gone away. And we never have to hear,

Paul Adelstein: I may be wrong, but it doesn't feel like that kind of already happened.

Am I wrong? Or is it just called something else? Now? Is it just, I don't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The NFT thing is bonkers to me. Okay. Let's, uh, let's play folks. Our little edited version, our rewatch

Paul Adelstein: of The Rat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so the people that didn't watch with us, this is, you're gonna hear some of our reactions to watching The Rat.

Way more [00:05:00] emotional music than we're normally getting on this show.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, I mean, they really do take the prospect of the electrocution very seriously. Yeah, it's interesting because Bellic seems to go from a power hungry asshole to a buffoon, and now we see him like, We see his intelligence and his methodical machinations.

That was a really beautiful moment of watching Wentworth go from vulnerability to putting the mask back on.

Paul Adelstein: Holy cow. I'm

Sarah Wayne Callies: like emotionally wrung out. I've been snotty weeping for the last three. I know. I'm so sorry. I'm glad that this is an audio so that people don't see this hot mess. Okay. That was an emotional gut punch.

It like, that hurt my insides.

Paul Adelstein: There's some real, there's some, for a show that kind of stays with the tension, and with the drama, and then with the twists and turns, although there are those in this episode, it is really an emotional episode, and just in terms of, you know, [00:06:00] Family and human connection and mortality.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, and, uh, a beautiful show debut for Kevin Hooks.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, you have some intense scenes in this episode, a whole series of them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I feel like the whole episode is an intense scene. Everybody did such, such, such beautiful work.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, um, wow, yeah. And Kevin Hooks, for a first episode, that is a adult dose to bite off, right?

Mm hmm. And you got to think that everybody, I mean, I'll ask you about this, but everybody has been playing to this, you know, has been acting towards, building towards this moment. Um, Lincoln, Michael, Veronica, Sarah, you know, this has all been coming down the pike and here we are.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And here we are.

Paul Adelstein: I have lots of notes, lots of questions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Great. Well, let's get it right into it. Okay. After this.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And we're back. And better than ever. Um, you said you took notes. I took [00:07:00] notes too.

Paul Adelstein: Lots and lots of notes. Yeah. Um, I took notes. Where do we start? The first thing, the first thing I have on my notes, it just says fart. Pitch. So, let's not start with that. You made a fart joke when the, when the, when the, I did, I did.

When the guys are in the, um, uh, the maintenance room and they're hiding, I said, don't fart. Okay, but

Sarah Wayne Callies: I know. I know. What a terrible thing to do. What a way to, what a terrible way to minimize such a deeply emotional show. I think you

Paul Adelstein: were trying

Sarah Wayne Callies: to

Paul Adelstein: enlighten

Sarah Wayne Callies: them,

Paul Adelstein: which you did. I just want to go right to the scene with you and, you and Michael and Link, where Michael says, I want to see my brother.

He says, can you talk to your father? And you say. Which is just such a great insight into Sarah and her whole presence in Fox River and her life, uh, growing up and everything as you say. If I'm the one who's asking my father for clemency, he's much [00:08:00] less likely to listen to it. It's just such a great line.

It's so telling and it's delivered really beautifully. I mean, you, you're so empathetic. so empathetic with him, but there's nothing, there's nothing, um, nobody's pushing in these scenes. And the thing that I also love that they did, they do it, you mentioned it later, when Michael and Lincoln are saying goodbye, is there's not a lot of words for some of this stuff.

For instance, when you're You, he says, Michael says to you, I want to, can I talk to my brother, I want to talk to my brother, and you say, I assumed it was going to be, you know, I can't do that, then him saying please, and then you saying okay, it was just, you immediately say, I'll try, which is, says a lot about Sarah's kind of character and backbone, she knows it's outside of protocol, but she's going to do it anyway, and then you see him, In one room, you see her walk to the other room, talk to the guard, and then you see Lincoln and Michael looking at each other through this glass, these two glass panes.

You see Sarah through the glass pane, you never hear [00:09:00] anything, you just know what's going on, and you see her kind of receive the news that it's not happening. And then her come back to Michael and say, it's not happening.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Which keeps the focus where it belongs, which is on the relationship between the two brothers.

You know what I mean? Like, I love the understanding from the writers. We don't need to hear Sarah say, please, and the guards say no, and her go, no, really? And him goes, no, I'm serious. All of that is secondary to the nonverbal conversation between these two brothers. And

Paul Adelstein: I also think that it, you know, I think one of the reasons this episode is so emotional is that it, all these protocols Shaving of the head, the last meal, the diaper, even the call from the governor, which is insane.

Um, there is a, this sense that there's a train on the tracks moving that is beyond your control. Mm

Sarah Wayne Callies: hmm. Mm

Paul Adelstein: hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: There's an apparatus.

Paul Adelstein: There's an apparatus in, in place. Nope, you don't get to see him now, you get to see him later. Nope, not until final visitation. Nope. Like, it's [00:10:00] like, but he's standing right there.

Ah, doesn't matter. Protocol is this. It makes the inevitability. of the execution, um, that much starker.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It feels like you've got to turn a battleship in order to change it. And you know, it's also interesting because just from like a procedural perspective, it also feels like part of what it does is it removes any capability from the human beings involved to make their own decision, right?

It's a way of standing behind.

Paul Adelstein: That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's like the thing with firing squads, where there's a

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. With the blanks. There's a blank in one of the guns, or there's a blank in all of the guns except one? I think it's the other.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think it's that nobody knows, yeah, it's designed so that nobody knows if they fired the kill shot.

Yeah. I mean, you know, I think really, this episode more than any other, and I, I, part of what I've always respected about the show is it does take very seriously the premise that this man could [00:11:00] be put to death. Without that, you don't have a show. But like sometimes, you know, like it's easy to sort of play the end, which is they're going to get out and it's not that serious.

This. episode made it all feel very real and it felt very real to me partly because you go, oh people do this. People sit in rooms with their last meal and their loved ones and they say goodbye and they walk their final steps on the earth and that's

interesting.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, to say the least. I think that one of the things that I was surprised by in revisiting it is that for a show that is, you know, we talked about it, it's a graphic novel, it's slightly heightened it, it. You know, it kind of exists out of time, it's certainly not political other than politics kind of being corrupt and dangerous at times, you know, with the vice [00:12:00] president and money and oil.

And now the governor. And now the governor. Yeah, now the governor being controlled by these interests. Well, I wouldn't, while I wouldn't say it is outright anti death penalty, it's, you're right that it, it, it could have avoided, much more easily avoided if it wanted to really hitting home, innocent people get killed.

We know he didn't do it. Yep. And we know they're really trying hard to kill him. And it's not just because. You know, there's this evil conspiracy going on, I mean, Henry Pope is depicted as a good man with a conscience and he's like, he says, I believe in the process, and this is what the process says. Even the he's clearly someone

Sarah Wayne Callies: who will put people to death.

Paul Adelstein: Yes, and even the judge isn't monstrous. He says, this is all very compelling, but you're not really showing me anything. I have no, I can't stop this because that's what's been determined and I have no paratus [00:13:00] to stop it. And um, that's really chilling.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Especially on Fox. I mean, I know that Fox. It has become something different back and forth in many ways, and who knows where it is at this moment when people listen to this, but, you know, I mean, there's the Fox News emblem is on some of these microphones, uh, that the reporters are using.

And To have a show whose very premise is, an innocent man is going to be put to death by the state, um, is, is fascinating. And also like, and I, I love it. I love that they didn't,

Paul Adelstein: Oh, I do too.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Shy away from it, water it down,

Paul Adelstein: Um, But also, it also, like you, you, sorry I interrupted what you were saying.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, no, no, no.

Quill, please.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, one of the things I'm fascinated by in any kind of storytelling is when everybody knows he's not gonna die. The show's called [00:14:00] Prison Break. Right. He's not gonna die. And to create that kind of emotion and tension, even when you know he's not gonna die, is incredible. It always reminds me of Captain Phillips or another Tom Hanks movie, which I didn't see, where he lands the plane on the, it's like, you know how these things end, like you, they're real stories, you know how they end and in order, and to be able to tell a story that creates tension and you know, in this, you're like, well, any TV viewers like, well, they're not going to kill him.

It's episode 14 or whatever. I mean, I guess they could, but you're pretty sure they're not going to, but you still get. The stakes are still raised so high with them saying goodbye to one another, the scene with LJB. Wait, why couldn't LJB be there? Because he's on like a house arrest or something?

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, because he's being framed for the murder of Lisa Ricks.

So he'll be arrested. He's on the lamb. Oh, so

Paul Adelstein: he's on the run. He's he's on the lamb. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Mm-Hmm. .

Sarah Wayne Callies: And if he's, if he goes, if he [00:15:00] sets foot in the prison, they will arrest him. Sure, sure. Okay. And then of course you will have a big bell and go gong and kill him. But two things about what you just said.

So I think in some ways that gravitas of taking it super seriously, like, I mean, one mm-Hmm. This was in a pre. Game of Thrones pre Walking Dead world where you didn't kill number one on the call sheet. And so in some ways, I wonder if in an interesting way, that security for the audience of knowing we don't know how he's going to get out of here, but it's like watching Houdini.

You're not showing up to watch Houdini die. You're watching, you're showing up knowing that Houdini is going to escape, but you don't know how. But there's almost, it almost allows you, at least allows me to emotionally invest a little deeper. Because I'm not worried that the show is going to crush me at the end of the 42 minutes.

Paul Adelstein: The closer you get to the actual electric chair, you're like, oh my god, how are they going to stop this thing?

Sarah Wayne Callies: A hundred

Paul Adelstein: percent. The fact that [00:16:00] they took the time to have those emotional moments, I think a lot of shows would be like, they would do that during a montage. They would do it during, they would smash them all together because the audience doesn't have the patience.

For 90 seconds of that when they're like, we know he's not gonna die, but this somehow was really a gut punch. You really feel Michael's failure, you feel Veronica's failure, and with, and with Lincoln, you really feel the um, despair. I mean the thing where he says, just stop, I don't want to hope anymore, stop giving me hope.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Enough already. It's

Paul Adelstein: really touching. I wonder about And then the governor's call. I mean that, that was a little, I have to say that, that seemed like cruel and unusual storytelling. It really did. Almost, in a way. It really did. Like, not unusual, but like, really? They all stop, and like, she has a smile on her face, and he's just like, yeah, I reviewed it.

It's not happening.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I just called to tell you that you're still gonna die, like,

Paul Adelstein: ooooh. And the pad, and the, and the vice president reveal [00:17:00] is. Is good there. Uh, and to answer your question from a second ago, no, I don't remember how they get out of this.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't remember. Because it picks up. The next episode, if I'm not mistaken, if I remember right, picks up like right there.

Paul Adelstein: With him in the

Sarah Wayne Callies: chair. With him being strapped into the actual chair. I'm sorry, I don't, I don't know if it's the actual chair. I don't know what kind of research went into like, is this what the electric chair looks like. Um, but you know, they keep it going and. In some ways, I think, structurally, in the long view of the show, what's interesting is this is the only time you see it, because, of course, he does get out, so there isn't a second execution where you would have all these scenes.

This is kind of the shot at it.

Paul Adelstein: You're starting from this place, now the second half of the season, let's say, where we get to see this, but by the time they're, you know, the last few episodes when they're actually about to escape. This is almost a thing of the past, right? I mean, it's not, it's, it doesn't loom in the same way in my recollection.

I might be wrong

Sarah Wayne Callies: about that. No, I think you're [00:18:00] right. Um, it is also, and we talked about this briefly, the only scene I have with Veronica

Paul Adelstein: where I open a

Sarah Wayne Callies: door.

Paul Adelstein: Talk about not passing the Bechdel test.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And she's on the other side of it. Um, although I will say what was kind of funny is we were, you know, noticing this with each other.

I was like, this is it, right? This is the only time we're going to see each other this season. And we decided, uh, while we were like hanging out shooting that scene, and I think it was the first time I met Frank Grillo, um, and I do remember we were on a stage and they had built that room. And And there was no reverse.

Like, you could not look over my shoulder into the room because it was just, it was all plywood.

Paul Adelstein: Two walls, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it was, and they hadn't finished the outside of the wall. So it was like, you're just gonna stand here and open the door and that's gonna be the whole shot. But she and I started talking and we're like, you know what?

We should have a Christmas party. And there was this like, Oh my God. Because we [00:19:00] started talking about. Oh my God. Wait, you guys are on your show. Paul's on his show. I'm in this, you know, romantic drama, and then the other guys are on their show. So let's have a Christmas party. And we did. We like, made invitations and sent them to you guys, thinking like.

We went. We had a Christmas, I think it was, was it at her house?

Paul Adelstein: It was at her house, or wherever she was staying in Chicago at the time, and it was about two blocks away. From my brothers, where I was staying

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was super close to you and me.

Paul Adelstein: My girlfriend at the time, who then became my wife, who then became my ex wife As you do.

We talk about that night all the time because it was kind of, she was in town, we, first of all, there was like 19 feet of snow on the ground, I don't know if you remember that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh. We were like, we

Paul Adelstein: remember like sliding through the snow, probably on the way home, sliding through the snow and having a snowball fight on the way back to my brothers.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um,

Paul Adelstein: but yeah, I remember that party being the first time everybody was kind of really [00:20:00] together.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm hmm. I also remember it being a little like, oh, hey, have you met so and so? Like, hey, have you met when we, and we'll talk about this later, but when we did get to the private room at the House of Blues celebrating the Golden Globes nomination, but that felt like old friends and celebration and woo woo.

And this was like,

Paul Adelstein: Nice to meet you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I wouldn't say church social, but there was a, like, There

Paul Adelstein: was, I just, I remember that too. I don't know

Sarah Wayne Callies: all these people. There's

Paul Adelstein: also a thing in Chicago, it also felt like a very adult, it felt very adult. Mm hmm. Like, and it's also, you know, it's freezing outside, it's hot inside, everyone's wearing sweaters and standing around, like, It had a very much, it had a very Christmas party vibe.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was not the, it felt like an office Christmas party. It was, I will say this. It was not the most successful party I have ever thrown. And I remember being like, huh, okay.

Paul Adelstein: You threw it? Oh, you and, you and Robin threw it at Robin's.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Robin and I decided to, yeah, to like, have, you know, I just, like, I remember my friend, [00:21:00] In New York, it just started this business making, like, handmade greeting cards.

And I was like, oh, I'll order a dozen of these and give them to the cat. You know, like, it had this, and I remember the impulse of, what if we all got together and became friends and could really, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, everyone gets together and you're like, there's a lot of us.

Paul Adelstein: That's a lot. A lot of people.

A lot of dynamics. A lot of

Sarah Wayne Callies: people to become a, like, you know, kind of family, you know, not many girls. Okay, what else do you have written down, because I have something very silly and stupid written down.

Paul Adelstein: I have rat written down, which is the name of the episode, but I wanted to talk about, you know, they tell you not to work with children and animals, and they tell you really not to work with rats.

Oh god, I can't. I'm glad, so glad I don't, wouldn't have to act with a rat.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, God.

Paul Adelstein: You know, this is. Do Wentworth not like rats?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Does anyone like rats?

Paul Adelstein: There are people that like rats.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Actually, that's true. Um, you know, my very first thing I ever did on camera when we were in grad school, they farmed [00:22:00] us out to do PSAs for various Denver area things.

And mine was, uh, the butterfly pavilion. And I had to open my hands. And there would be three different shots of three different creatures in there. Would say, it's at the butterfly pavilion. And one of them was a Mexican hissing cockroach. And one of them was a tarantula. No. And so I'm 20 maybe. getting paid zero dollars.

And they're like, okay, we're going to put the tarantula in your hand. Remain calm. And I was like, you've like defanged it and de venomed it, right? And they're like, yeah, that's not a thing. And I was like, sorry? They're like, we've got like, you know, we can handle this if it happens, but you can't like de venom a tarantula.

And I was like, Oh my goodness. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So I'm just standing there. With a tarantula in my hands, which, by the way, they're very soft. It felt like somebody put a pile of, um, [00:23:00] Q tips in my hand. It was very well behaved. I was not bitten.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, man. Oh, man. Okay. Okay. Moving on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

What was the little silly thing you wanted to talk about?

Sarah Wayne Callies: So, there's this purse.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, yeah. This

Sarah Wayne Callies: is the way that I had a real sense of what was happening with the show outside of Chicago in our little bubble. So there's this purse that I'm wearing in the scene with, uh, the governor. I think it's the first time you see Your father.

Yeah. Asking for clemency for Lincoln, just, you know, please just take a look at this file. I think in some ways it's the first time you see Sarah's really hopping on board on Team Lincoln. And, um, I've got this purse over my shoulder and I thought it was kind of cool. I wore it in, uh, every episode for the rest of the season that you saw me outside because I had a big thing about Sarah shouldn't have a big giant wardrobe, right?

She doesn't have a ton of money. A few episodes with that bag aired and a friend of mine was like, Hey, that purse is really [00:24:00] cute. You can pick me one up and I was like, okay, so I went to someplace in Chicago and I tried to find it and they were like, Oh, we don't have any. And I was like, all right, I was going down to New York the next weekend.

So I went to New York and this place that I knew sold that brand and I went in and she was like, no, we're all sold out. And I was like, Oh, it's Tano sold completely out. It's incredible. Of that bag. And I actually still have the original in my closet as we speak.

Paul Adelstein: That's incredible.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I gotta, so one other thing that was interesting, I was noticing this, this kind of goes into the realm of us looking back at ourselves as slightly different people.

Um, and just bear with me because this is not me fishing for any kind of compliment or whatever. I always, I always do.

Paul Adelstein: Fucking prince.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, I appreciate you. So I put weight on during this season [00:25:00] because Chicago is a great place to like drink red wine and have steaks. And it's cold. And I was somebody who was not particularly self conscious about that, but I put weight on and by this episode, you can, I can see.

And I remember looking in the mirror around these episodes going, Oh God, I don't have cheekbones anymore. My face got round. And I remember it being a thing in my head. that was really present. Yeah. And I now watch it and I go, I don't actually see a difference between the pilot and it's like, it's that crazy actor brain, or maybe person brain, or whatever.

I'm not

Paul Adelstein: proud to say that I still have it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We're so hard on ourselves. I

Paul Adelstein: saw this amazing interview, It's in the Paul Newman, Joanne Woodward documentary called The Last Movie Stars, which is really worth watching.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I've heard it's great.

Paul Adelstein: Where in his, [00:26:00] he's got to be in his fifties and still the most beautiful human to ever walk the earth.

And he's talking to an acting class, maybe he's in his sixties, and they say, um, like what's your greatest fear or something. And he says. Without missing a beat, he says, that I'll wake up with brown eyes. And it's like, he had this incredible insecurity about being so beautiful.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, interesting. That there's nowhere to go but down.

Paul Adelstein: Well, no, that he felt like he wasn't, that he wasn't the acting equivalent of his peers. I mean, he studied with Shelley Winters and Carl Malden and James Dean and Brando. Like, that was the class he was in at acting school. So he always felt like he had gotten ahead with his looks more than his talents.

So he had an insecurity about it. Um, but I'm just wondering, are there people that aren't like, oof, look at my oof, I don't like the, and you know, I saw Philip Seymour Hoffman say one of the things he was most proud of, or maybe he said glad, maybe proud wasn't the word, he said that [00:27:00] very early on he decided he wasn't going to care how he looked.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I will say, you can't take your eyes off Phil Hoff.

Paul Adelstein: Correct. Correct. And I wish I had done that. And I really

Sarah Wayne Callies: do believe that vanity is the enemy of art. I agree, but I

Paul Adelstein: mean, Jesus.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But it is so hard to dismantle. And what's interesting to me is like, you know how you do interviews and they go, what would you say to your 20 year old self?

I was like, no, shoot me in the face. I can't. I don't know what to say to that. I never have like a satisfying answer. For some reason that question always annoys me. I watch this and I think I would sit her down and say no one cares. There is not going to be, and look part of it, I gotta say part of the fear was knowing there is a fandom out there watching and judging.

Paul Adelstein: Not like you are.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I guess what I would just, you know, say to that, young lady is like, it's, they're not gonna get mad at you. They're not gonna not like you. They're not gonna notice this. [00:28:00] Um, and it will only get in your way, but it's really interesting to go back in my head. I'm not watching these scenes being like, where the fuck are her cheekbones?

Paul Adelstein: I do it with myself still, but like, it's like, and then I'm like, but wait, just look at the work. And then sometimes I'm like, yeah, the work's not so good. And then sometimes I'm like, oh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But that's wrong.

Paul Adelstein: Okay, but sometimes it is. I've

Sarah Wayne Callies: been watching all of this with you. Your work's great. Okay,

Paul Adelstein: sometimes it is.

But you're going to have the same reactions. No, you're wrong. What I'm saying is, what you said is the most important part, which is not just that like vanity's bad for you, which it is. It's that it gets in the way of your work. Like, if you're sitting there like, Uh, you know, I gotta keep my, whatever, I gotta, This angle's better, I gotta put my head this way, It's, it's gonna fuck you up.

And if that's what you're thinking about before you go to work, You're not

Sarah Wayne Callies: thinking about the scene.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. It's gonna fuck you up. And you see actors, I also think that there is, I mean, we're going, we're going a little far field here, but whatever. There's a [00:29:00] lot of things when you, when you're an actor, a lot of things that are beyond your control.

In getting jobs, even when you have a job, you don't get to control how the day works. You don't get control, are they going to shoot my side or their side first? You know, you don't, you don't get control over, it's raining a little and now everyone's freaking out. Now there's horns honking out there. Um, and you know, there is only so much preparation you can do.

There is actually a point, it's a different conversation, where you're doing too much work. Do your work at work. Don't do too much homework. You know, there's all, we can talk about all those things. I think what a lot of actors end up doing is putting that energy into

Sarah Wayne Callies: appearance.

Paul Adelstein: Even exercise, let's say, or food, or sleep, or getting, uh, vitamin D infusions, whatever it is, that there's this, you know, we are our instrument, that's, that's an, an annoying thing to hear, but it is absolutely true.

No, it's true. And so I think people are like, [00:30:00] well, this I can work every day. Instead of like learning. You can exercise

Sarah Wayne Callies: control over this one thing. Correct. Instead of like,

Paul Adelstein: oh, I'm going to read more books or I'm going to learn a Shakespeare sonnet. Yeah, but I can run 10 miles a day and I can do this and I can do that and then I'll be and that can be super effective, obviously, and super healthy, but Like everything, too much of a good thing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And you know, for, for any actor out there listening, my, my personal philosophy, and listen, you take that with a grain of salt that my career is what Salt, salt will make

Paul Adelstein: you puffy though. So maybe take it with a grain

Sarah Wayne Callies: of, Take it with a grain of sodium free. Sodium

Paul Adelstein: free something. Soy sauce? Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: there

Paul Adelstein: you go.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, if you have the choice between honesty and vanity, choose honesty every time. For the love of God. Because I will say. And I, I think this is probably true of both of us. There will always be somebody cuter. There will [00:31:00] always be someone fitter. The jobs I get are the jobs that I beat other people in the audition room.

You know what I mean? Like it's I think

Paul Adelstein: that's right. I do. I think that's right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's You You I believe her audition. And

Paul Adelstein: all this, all this, I believe her audition

Sarah Wayne Callies: instead of, I feel like I'm in a soapbox. I'm getting down. No,

Paul Adelstein: I'm, I'm, I'm not proud to say that all these years into my career, I still need to hear that.

Um, all right, we could go on and on and on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, but, and we have. Yeah. But we should, um, We should go off and off and off. Okay, let's. Um, break? Fan questions? Yeah, quick

Paul Adelstein: break and then we'll be back with some fan questions. Let's do it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, welcome back everyone. Hello. Paul's got a couple of questions for us.

Paul Adelstein: These come from Instagram. Um, the first one is from Long Story Short with three Ts and an unders, what's it called? Underscore?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Underscore. Long Story Short. [00:32:00] Handle.

Paul Adelstein: Underscore. Do they actually film in Chicago when they weren't in the prison scenes? And the answer is yes. And I think to great effect. I mean, in this episode that we just watched, The Rat, um, there's a really cool tracking shot across either Michigan Avenue or Wabash, looks like in the middle of the day with lots of traffic.

And that is super impressive. And it gives.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: I think it really lends a lot to the show because it, it, it's a stark contrast between Fox River and then this bustling city. And most of the time when you're in the bustling city, you really get a sense of the power. You know, you're in the corridors of power, you're in the courtroom, you're in the governor's whatever, office.

The governor's wherever. Yeah, mansion, office. We are where

Sarah Wayne Callies: we shot that scene. Yeah, I don't

Paul Adelstein: know what building that is. It's not the state of Illinois building, but it's certainly grand.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, but the rotunda up there was absolutely spectacular. And then, in the

Paul Adelstein: courtroom scene, um, where Veronica and Nick are making their plea, I remember, for some reason I was [00:33:00] there that day, I don't know why, but that was some big grand room too.

And like you said, listen to the echo, like you can hear, echo, and so yeah, they really used Chicago well.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, next question.

Paul Adelstein: From Peppy underscore Oliver underscore Bell, did any of the character's backstory change significantly in the process of creating it? Did any of the character's backstory change significantly in the process of creating it?

That's a really good question for a writer. That we should have and get into at some point. I know that, um, we have an episode called Brother's Keeper coming up, which has tons of backstories in it. And one of the interesting things, I mean, Sarah, you could talk about this. I don't know how much you knew about Sarah's backstory when you started.

I certainly didn't really, I made my own backstory up for Kellerman. And then when it started, startling when it slowly started to get revealed. I, you know, that one of the writers asked me, what did you come up with? And then they said, we're thinking about this and this and this. And [00:34:00] I said, oh, that's great.

And then I would use that. But a lot of times you make up your backstory and then you find out that it's different and you just kind of adjust. How much did you know about Sarah before you started?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I mean, I think we talked about this in early episodes. I like you. I made up a bunch of stuff, shared some of it with the writers and that it ended up landing.

Um, the Brother's Keeper episode was a giant set of, oh, wow. And I think they, you know, I think it's really common in television to backfill and go, okay, wait. Like, the C Note backstory to me is one of the most fascinating because you get to know him as a very smart, somewhat conniving inmate and then you realize, uh, you know, he's got a wife and a kid who think that he's.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's really.

Paul Adelstein: But it's unlikely that Rockman knew that before he started, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think it's unlikely that Paul Scherring, before he started.

Paul Adelstein: Uh huh. [00:35:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, but yeah, great question. We will get way more into this with our guest, Greg Utanis, who directed, uh, the film. Brother's Keeper in just a couple episodes.

Paul Adelstein: Um. Um. I think we're running out of time.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, I think that does it for another episode of Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. Yes. Uh, please, uh, come follow our Instagram, at Prison Break Podcast, and that way you can be a part of some of our competitions and leave fan questions. Yeah, and

Paul Adelstein: don't forget to call into the Prison Breaking hotline at 401 3 P BREAK, 401 3 P BREAK.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's the letter P.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. It's

Sarah Wayne Callies: the letter P. Every time. Every time. Um, okay. So, I mean, I made a fart joke. I gotta end with a fart joke. Fair enough. What do we want to ask the people this week? What if it's something about, like, Bellick and his, are you pro dipping your fries?

Paul Adelstein: Oh, there you go. Okay, so call us at the Prison Breaking Hotline at 401 [00:36:00] 3 P BREAK and tell us when you're eating fries and a burger and a milkshake, do you dip the fries in the milkshake or not?

Sarah Wayne Callies: And is that regional?

Paul Adelstein: Some people are like, Oh, that's a Chicago. I was like, that's not a Chicago thing. It might be a thing, but I don't think it's specifically a Chicago thing. So call up and give us your questions, give us your comments.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Tell us about your burgers and fries questions. And if you throw in something in there about a rat, bonus.

We'll come up with something better next week, you guys. Um, okay. So, credits.

Paul Adelstein: Hit me.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Calibre Studio product. Your hosts

Paul Adelstein: have been friends but not besties, Sarah Wankelis and Paul Edelstein.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haverick. Keeping us

Paul Adelstein: slim and trim in the prison yard has been sound designer and editor Jeff Schmidt.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Keeping us up to date on the outside world is production assistant Drew Austin.

Paul Adelstein: Letting the world know what's been happening to us in prison is Social Media Manager Emma [00:37:00] Tolkien.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Tunes were written, recorded by the one and only Paul Aton.

Paul Adelstein: Our prison artist logo and brand designer is John Nun at Little Big Brands.

Check them out at www little big brands.com.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at. P. B. Podcast at caliber studio. com or call us at 401 3 P B R E A K.

Paul Adelstein: Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Caliber Studio production. Your hosts have been friends, but not besties, Sarah Wayne Callis and Paul Edelstein.

A Prison Warden has been producing this episode. Keeping us slim and trim in the prison yard has been sound designer and editor Jeff Schmidt. Keeping us up to date on the outside world is production assistant Drew Austin. Letting the world know what's been happening to us. Our music was done by Paul Edelstein.

Our prison artist, logo, and brand designer is John Nunziato and Little Big Brands. Check him out at www. littlebigbrands. com. Follow us on Instagram, Prison Break Podcast. [00:38:00] Email us at prisonbreakingatcaliberstudio. com and call us at 401 3P BREAK. Prison Breaking. with Sarah and Paul has been a Calibre Studio production.

Thank you for listening.