PB-E10 DISCUSS 031824-mast ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Okay, everyone. Well, fishes, my fishes, welcome back to Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. I'm Sarah. And I'm Paul. And we, uh, are recording our first episode back from the holiday break. Um, refreshed. So grateful for a rest. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but 2023. Rang me

Paul Adelstein: out. Yep. Same, same, same.

Ready for 2024 though. Feeling refreshed and grateful as they say. Today's episode is called Sleight of Hand. We have new characters introduced. We have a double delicious plot twist. One of my favorite plot twists. We have a broken finger. The broken finger. Uh, is, oh, is [00:01:00] that part of the. Double entendre of sleight of hand, do you think?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't know. But I wrote that in our script, and you sold that very well. It's a very stupid thing to say.

Paul Adelstein: I wonder if it was part of the

Sarah Wayne Callies: It might be. Your hand is slightly broken. Uh, we will find out as we discuss the episode, but first, um, our Calestine Index. This episode first aired, uh, November 7th of 2005, which is now 19 years ago since it's 2024.

Um, it was written really, really well by Nick Santora, directed beautifully by Dwight Little. This, honestly, this episode impressed me so much. Uh, the rating was 8. 06 million viewers. Um, our lead in this week turned out to be Arrested Development, which is unusual, I believe. And a bit of a gear change. Uh, competition in the time slot were our usual suspects, Monday Night Football on ABC, Colts [00:02:00] Patriots, final score was 40 to 21.

And as somebody who knows nothing about football, that still sounds terrible to me. Ass kicking, yeah. Um, sorry, Pats. Two and a half men was on CBS and Las Vegas was on NBC.

Paul Adelstein: The episode In brief, Michael and Sarah get closer after he saves her inmate. Franklin works in the guard room repairs and finds the escape hole.

That's c note. Michael tells Ace's boss how he found the witness. Fell zone goes to kill the witness. However, it's a false address. Michael and I, Bruce, we were working together to have Falzone and his man arrested. That's the big twist. Michael returns to work in the guardroom, now forced to include C Note, and Vice President Reynolds informs Agent Kellerman that the company has sent its own operative, Quinn, to take over their work.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And to orient us in pop culture, in November of 2005, the movie version of of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire premiered on November 6th. That's the first book in the series [00:03:00] and the movie. Um, it went on to make 896 million dollars, which I suppose is not surprising.

Paul Adelstein: No. I did love those books. It could've, it could've failed.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I suppose it could've failed. Uh, and I believe that was directed by Christopher Columbus.

Paul Adelstein: It was in fact directed by Christopher Columbus.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Do you know, I have it on VHS. Wow. It's that long ago. I know. Um, all right, November 8th that week, this was a big week, George R. R. Martin's fourth book in his series, A Song of Ice and Fire, was released in the U.

S., uh, the book was titled Feast of Crows. It reached the New York Times bestseller list, which actually made it, and I, this was interesting as I was doing my research. only the third fantasy writer ever to achieve that. Wow, that's surprising. One of the others was Neil Gaiman. That book would become the basis for the fifth season of HBO's Game of Thrones.

And the next day in this giant week, on November 9th, [00:04:00] Madonna, a little known pop artist, released her 10th studio album, the disco slash electro pop influenced Confessions of a Dance Floor, and if I'm perfectly honest, my confession, it is not my favorite Madonna

Paul Adelstein: album. Okay. In global events, on November 6, Saddam Hussein's defense lawyer is assassinated a day after he predicted he would be murdered.

Well, that's dark. On November 7th, China closed Beijing poultry markets and seized chickens and ducks from private homes as the government wrapped up its fight against the bird flu there. And in good news, Sierra Leone eradicated polio in the country thanks to a successful immunization campaign there.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And on that bright spot in global health, um, yay eradicating global diseases. This is our re watch. You guys ready?

Paul Adelstein: I would like to point out Wentworth's [00:05:00] awesome

Sarah Wayne Callies: widow's peak. He's got a really good hairline.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, it's just great hair all around. I feel like we're kind of similar characters. Quinn and

Sarah Wayne Callies: Kellerman. Yeah, there's a lot of overlap in the way they're sort of articulated, isn't there? And yet, it doesn't feel that

Paul Adelstein: way.

That's why I was like, huh, I wonder if this guy's going to take my job.

Sarah Wayne Callies: There's another twist. Oh, I forgot all about this. That word bulls was Rob Nepper's only line in that entire episode. I'll tell you a story about it in the podcast. We had a conversation about it. Thank you for that rewatch folks. And we will be right back to talk about the episode.

Paul Adelstein: We are back folks. Um, okay. Some additional topics that we want to discuss in this episode of our podcast stage direction. And how actors respond to stage directions, which is the [00:06:00] kind of, uh, stuff around, in the script that's not the dialogue. Um, sometimes there's very little stage directions. Sometimes there's a lot.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, right. I wanted to talk to you about this because I actually went through my script, um, for this episode and, uh, uh, I noticed in your scene with Quinn, and we, we have a lot to talk about with this scene with Quinn, but you have a line. Um, that you say to Hale before Quan arrives. You say, I hear you talk like that again, I'm gonna put a bullet between your eyes.

The stage direction for that line says, quote, Kellerman delivers the next line nonchalantly, comma, an empty threat between friends. And after the line it says, Kellerman rolls his neck. Hmm. So, my question is, like, how do you feel about stage directions with that kind of specificity?

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Um, I feel like stage directions, um, as [00:07:00] I've worked more and more, I feel like a lot of times, and being on the other side, a lot of times they are foreign to the network, and they should actually be removed to be given to the actors because they can be confusing sometimes to make things incredibly clear about how something is going to play.

Sometimes the writers will put things in so the network doesn't say, you Kellerman seems awfully hostile towards Hale right now. And he says, no, no, no, it's said in a nonchalant way. I'm not saying that's the case in this particular stage direction. I will say that. But they're kind of tone notes. They're kind of, that's right, that's well said.

They're kind of tone notes rather than this is how you need to act it. Although sometimes that serves the same. I think that, um, I used to take them too seriously. Some actors just cross them out. I do think it's important information. I think Kellerman delivers the next line nonchalantly, an empty threat between friends.

[00:08:00] I think nonchalantly is the thing I took from that. An empty threat, it's not an empty threat. There's an innuendo there, which you're not, and obviously the, I mean, the music cue is like, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, with the rattles. I don't know if that answers your question,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but. Yeah, kind of. I mean, listen, I think it, I remember hearing somewhere, and this could be totally apocryphal, that Chris Walken, the first thing he does when he gets a script is take a sharpie and cross out, like obliterate.

All of the um, stage directions. And I think it's interesting because I have often thought, like you just said, that it would be great once the studio and network get their drafts, they do an actor's draft where they take out, well, most of those stage directions, just because I think there are some actors who, uh, who second guess their own, um, um, their own instincts when they see the stage direction.

And my least favorite stage [00:09:00] direction that I've ever, that, that ever shows up that makes it virtually impossible to do a scene is, and then your character cries. Right? Like it's a, it's a result note that almost always makes it super hard for an actor to cry first of all. To cry. Yeah. Anyway. I just, just wanted your two cents on it as

Paul Adelstein: a, you know.

I think that also it's important, um, to any actors out there, anybody, frankly. That it's, uh, uh, funny or ironic or something that stage direction is a bit of a misnomer here. In a, in, in, in theater, a stage direction is where you go downstage left, picks up a, picks up a cup. It's act, it's literally actions.

Very rarely. Yeah. acting tone notes. Oh, that's interesting, isn't it? In film and TV, there are action lines, right? Like, you know, the [00:10:00] day is very dark and they can't see, and there's smoke in the room, and he searches for the gun.

Sarah Wayne Callies: They pull up in a car and hang it out. Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: right. And all the action stuff. And then there are stage directions, which sometimes are parentheses under a line, which says, like, warmly, or.

Uh, without anger or stuff like that, which could be helpful for what's intended. Um, but the fact that we call it stage directions, I think means that a lot of people that started on stage treat it like, um, you know, sacrosanct because that's where every single word counts in a, in a, in theater and you're supposed to honor every single thing.

As though it's Chekhov

Sarah Wayne Callies: saying, right, I need you to do this on this line or the play falls apart. That's such a good point.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. And I think that takes time to get over. Not that you want to disregard, but you have to take it into account. I mean, what I read when I say, when I see Kellerman delivers the next time, nonchalant as empty threats between friends is.[00:11:00]

It's not an overt threat, you know, it's like he's not getting in his face But it's you know that that's all I took that to mean, um, and then kellerman rolls his neck Uh, which I think if unless it was really specific to the scene that kind of physical stage direction can be frustrating for an actor Um, especially if you've been playing the character for a while That feels like a reference to the thing I did in an earlier scene where I actually cracked my neck which Was something I did after the take that they really liked and kept in.

So then it became a thing, mm. That LER started doing. And so then I think Nick just liked that. Do that thing. You do. I don't even, I don't even know if I did it, but

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. And I was watching was You didn't, but it's not like the same suffered for it and I

Paul Adelstein: kind of like shrug my shoulders or something. But I think that, yeah, what that's saying is, you know, Kellerman does a kellerman thing, which is, you know, fine.

Kellerman Kellermans. Kellerman Kellermans. We had some new characters introduced we wanted to talk about, [00:12:00] right? Michael Gassman shows up to play Quinn, we were joking about it during the rewatch, it's always scary when, if you're playing a character like Kellerman and they bring somebody in who's kind of more Kellerman y than Kellerman, you say, oh, am I getting fired?

Which is great because, not great, it's scary, but, um, it's funny because the dynamic between the characters is also the dynamic between, like, the actors, you're like, is this person here to kill me? And Kellerman is like, is this person here to kill me? You know, you're like, Oh, is this person taking my spot?

It's actually, it's actually a mirror dynamic, which is funny. Um, the thing I want to talk about was, I guess you say, uh, and you're, and you're right, it's the first time we hear of the company and then Kellerman goes to vice president Reynolds and says, you brought these guys in, this is bad news. They're bad news.

You know, they're introducing this idea of somebody even more somebody even [00:13:00] higher up pulling the strings, um, in just in terms of Kellerman and vice president, President Reynolds. It's interesting what Prison Break does so well with all the characters is they constantly shift. Power dynamics. Yeah. So even Yeah.

Yeah. Suddenly they, they are being threatened. Right. And not just by Vice President Reynolds is saying, you're screwing this up. I'm gonna fire you. Suddenly there's someone saying, Mm-Hmm, , we're gonna kill you. And what that, which is the Fells wanna dynamic or, you know? That's right. And what you see then is like, it makes Al Aru do, and what you're gonna see with Kellerman and Hale is it makes them go, um, off the plant.

Mm. It makes them, makes them improvise, it makes them do things out of character and. Go rogue. And so that is, uh, you know, that keeps happening in Prison Break is you have A trying to get to B and there's going to be all these side, side paths that you have to take to get there. And that's [00:14:00] really fun writing.

And it's fun to watch somebody like Kellerman and Hale who have been really kind of, I mean, they've screwed up a couple of things or a couple of things have gone wrong, but like, they're kind of untouchable. Yeah. They've been ghosts. They're quite, quite

Sarah Wayne Callies: touchable. Yeah. It's true, you know, because it goes from Michael has power to nope, Bellic takes the power to nope, the Pope takes the power to nope, the governor takes the power.

That's right. You know, I mean, and it, and I think the challenge in the writing, um, and I, you know, the way they handled it with, uh, Fibonacci, Falzone, Abruzzi, and Michael, I think is very deft. The danger is you just have to keep escalating up and up and up and up and it gets ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. And so to find ways of readjusting back down of, okay, we've now eliminated Falzone.

The power is now back with the Brute C, centered back on Michael. This kind of resetting, I think is, um, is very clever. By the way, just before we [00:15:00] come off that, this is a, this is an odd thing, but it just made me think about it. This constant dance of status. I remember being told in grad school, how do you know that the person on stage is the queen?

It's not because she stands. It's because when she sits, everyone else stands. Meaning that you can't take status. Status can only be given. And I think it's true. You know, Quinn has power, not because Quinn shows up and is ferocious, but because of the way that Kellerman and Hale behave when Quinn is in the room.

And I think it's an, it's an interesting thing for actors because. I've seen actors, when they get insecure, refuse to give up status. All of a sudden you have a scene that doesn't work because you're like, buddy, you're not in charge here. This guy's in charge.

Paul Adelstein: This could be a whole nother podcast. You hear stories in, especially about movie stars, after a certain [00:16:00] period where they're like, well, I'm not doing that.

Like, I'm not getting, I'm like, I'm not getting on my knees or I'm not going to make me look weak, you know, make me look, Chris, I was on a show with somebody who will remain nameless who wouldn't wear certain color. I don't want to give anything away. Costume. Okay. Because he's, because it was, uh, not masculine.

And he said, my fan base doesn't want to see me in this. Oh, interesting.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right.

Paul Adelstein: Right. That's kind of an extreme, an extreme version of it, but also I would say the writing with Quinn is really fun and great because he does this whole, you know, he's like described as kind of his ties undone and he's sloppy and he's like kind of the opposite, opposite of the buttoned down military vibe that Kellerman and Hale have.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. When he says to Sebastian, I'm an insurance adjuster, you're like, yep.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. You buy that. That tracks. Innocuous. [00:17:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, and I do want to answer a question for those of us who are coming from the, uh, the rewatch, the watch party. Um, Michael Gaston in fact was not in Walking Dead, but he has been in approximately everything else on TV.

I just looked through his IMDB resume and I was like, Oh, you're the hardest working actor in Hollywood.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Yeah. He's. He's never stopped working. And he's fantastic. And he's fantastic. We have some great stuff coming up. Um, also we were introduced to Nika, whose intro reads from your script, camera slowly reveals a woman primping at a vanity, hashtag male gaze, something elegant in the way she puts on lipstick.

She's perhaps the hottest Eastern European woman this side of Prague. And I,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I gotta say, I read that. Yeah. I mean, first of all, the Nika of it all, I think, is brilliant. Um, Holly Valance did a wonderful job playing her. Holly Valance, [00:18:00] right, yeah. Yeah, who was like a huge pop star at the time. Really? Yeah, she had like a huge hit single in, I think, the U.

K. Um.

Paul Adelstein: Is she, this is, I'm embarrassed to ask, is she?

Sarah Wayne Callies: She is, in fact, I believe, Australian. She was doing an accent. But I've gotta say, I was going through my script and I was like, perhaps the hottest Eastern European woman this side of Prague. I was wondering what's happening on the other side of Prague that's making Niko Volek not the hottest

Paul Adelstein: woman.

More on the West side. Oh, right, it's super east of Prague.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm, I want fans to answer this question for us. I want to do a little competition. What are things happening on the other side of Prague that make Nika Volek not the hottest Eastern European woman over there? Um, send us your answers, [00:19:00] fans. Best answer wins a prison breaking merch mug.

Okay, something that I think you did really, really well. Going back to that scene, acting pain, physical pain. Of all the things that we do as actors, I sometimes find it the eggiest thing to do, meaning you feel like you have egg all over your face. Um, because I think so much of the way we behave when we're in a ton of pain is absurd and not something anybody necessarily wants to see on TV, but also we're very rarely observing it in ourselves.

You know, like there are times when you're in grief or in love or whatever, where that actor part of you is outside going, Oh, I should, I could use this. I sort of see this. But usually when at least I'm in pain, like if I get hit in the head, I just burst into tears. Um, and I thought you did a great job.

And I wondered if you had any specific feelings about, you know, the role. This is a show where you shot and beat up and yeah,

Paul Adelstein: I also have trouble playing that sometimes and not, you know, the [00:20:00] thing that they always tell an actor to do is don't play the obstacle. So you always want to play, if you're drunk, you always want to play that you're trying not to appear drunk.

Right. I mean, uh, although sometimes you just, I always, I'm so sober. Sometimes cause sometimes when you're drunk, you just want, I don't care if somebody knows you're drunk. So anyway, it depends on the scene. In this particular scene. Uh, two things I, I remember keeping in mind that were super helpful to the how people are going to know how much pain I'm in thing.

Which is one Kellerman, uh, is so trained, a Navy Seal secret service. He, uh, has probably a relationship with pain that he can Mm-Hmm. , you know, mask it, shut it off, and, yeah. Or at, you know, at least not let it out. And, and that's one And two is that while Quinn is in that room, he's not gonna show him [00:21:00] how much pain he's in.

And basically I was just like, let's see how long I can hold my breath. I mean, it was, I just, I think that's what I did. I mean, it was just like, how do you not scream? Right. I kind of put my face in the carpet and screamed a little bit. And they used the right takes to make it, you know, um, just look, I think, uh, like I was trying to keep it inside.

That was the only thing I thought about.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You know, and I don't know if this was scripted or not, I can't remember, but I love the moment where Hale takes a couple steps forward and you're like, nope.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I put my hand, yeah. Because I know, yes. Which is, I don't remember if that was scripted or not.

I don't, I mean, I think, gosh, I don't remember. Um, I love, I love when they keep stuff like that though because it, there's a whole story in that, right? Because I'm saying, let's, we gotta let this guy do his thing. [00:22:00] Like we're ceding power at that moment. Right. Totally ceding power. Yes. Lost his battle. Such, it was a very fun scene to play.

So there's a rev, there was a revision to the second Michael Cera scene, uh, in your script. The original lines, right? There was a seven, it was a Snow White and seven dwarves joke.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, so I was going through it. So in the second scene between Michael and Sarah, I think this is one of the ones that I want to say Wentworth had a few ideas on, um, I'm not sure what was and what wasn't.

So this is the production draft dated 923, and then what's in the collated green draft was 930. Meaning, um, I think we actually went back to some of the original lines. I love the, when Michael says you ought to have a little more faith in the world, and Sarah says this coming from an eight toed guy locked up in a penitentiary.

I love that. And I think we went back to that. In the green pages, [00:23:00] um, Michael says what about optimism, hope, the possibility that things might just work out. Sarah says happily ever after, look around Michael, this isn't a fairy tale. Michael Vance says. Then what are those seven dwarves doing out there in the hall?

Sarah tries to hide a smile. Michael says, that smile, it suits you. Shame you don't use it more often. Um, I just, I mean, this is all kind of minutiae, but I like that they took, I don't know. I, I like the seven dwarves joke, but I like the version that we, that we ended up shooting and using. And

Paul Adelstein: do you remember shooting the seven dwarves version too?

Or no,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no, I don't. We didn't. You don't, you didn't. Okay. I don't think we did. Um. The, something that I think a lot of actors learn early on is when they say, well, just give us a version in case we need to use it. That's always the version they'll use. So if it needs to be a conversation, make the cover, make it a conversation.

Um, [00:24:00] you know, I mean, it's interesting because I think there's only two scenes between Michael and Sarah in this episode, but it feels like they go a long way together.

Paul Adelstein: It's great because there's an arc to it. She starts pretty, there's a pretty hard stiff arm up to him at the beginning and by the end it's the rose and she says thank you for trying to get me to smile today and he says well you never know and then she does smile even though he's not there to receive it.

It's very nice. And, uh, I know that you commented that, that, um, the thing with the flower is one of the most remixed scenes of Michael and Sarah, like, used in YouTube videos and whatnot. Is that right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: That, I think that flower took on a big significance. He gives it to her, I think, again, In season four, it comes up again in season five.

I don't know. There's just something like something that went and I talked about a lot was the, the relationship lives in the restraint. It lives in everything that isn't said. And these, [00:25:00] these scenes are interesting because for the first time, he's trying to get more out of her than she's trying to get out of him.

Right? It's always been talk to me, tell me what's going on. Who are you? And this time it's, why are you? sad and what's, happy birthday and why are you bummed about that? Um, it also in the original script that I was 27, uh, and said, and I think we landed on 29 because we did the math on medical school residency.

Medical school at

Paul Adelstein: 16th.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Exactly. Doogie Howser is Dr. Tancredi in, um,

Paul Adelstein: I think that that's, that's an interesting dynamic you talk about is that what is switched is, uh, after he rescues her is that he's kind of warmed to her now. And she's, because she let him in a little bit, it feels like it freaked her out and she's shut that door.

And [00:26:00] now the dynamic has changed.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, and he needs her for this. Like I think in some ways what starts in these scenes. Is the dynamic of the audience going, how much of this is he needs her for the escape? Probably all of it. How bad do we feel that she's being manipulated? And as she looks back on these scenes in her life later, how is that all going to feel?

Um, because somebody who drops off a flower so that you feel better on a day when you're reminded that your father's never there for you. It's very different from somebody who is just always with an agenda trying to get something out of you.

Paul Adelstein: That's right. I mean, I feel like it doesn't, it doesn't read to me like, I mean, he is getting what he needs, which is the pug neck, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: He doesn't know what he needs is for her to leave the infirmary. That's the big, you know, I think [00:27:00] he says in whatever, episode one or two, like she's the key to this whole thing or something, you know, something like that, that like it all comes down to, we have to escape to the infirmary. Right. Interesting.

I

Paul Adelstein: forgot, and it's kind of amazing that for all the tattoos and chemicals being mixed and digging and da da da da, that it comes down to this very human, I need you to leave the door open. It's kind of great, but that's, uh, that's the Z, the A to Z, that's the Z. Like the

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sucre thing, you know, like I can plan everything except who my Sally's gonna be.

Right. You know, when they did that big, like, can we trust him?

Paul Adelstein: But this is not random. This is like his master plan, which is so incredibly intricate. Totally. Totally. He just, no pun intended, on just getting this person to leave a door open.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. Right. And you know what I think is interesting? This is getting a little carpet for the horsey, but of all the things that he never found [00:28:00] out about her, he never found out she was an addict.

It

Paul Adelstein: never comes up?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't think so. I don't, I don't think he, I don't think he ever knows. Now, of course, you know, narcotics and alcoholics anonymous are supposed to be exactly that. Um, but, you know, for someone who can figure out where Otto Fibonacci is hiding, it's interesting that he kind of had that blindside.

Um,

Paul Adelstein: Let's talk about the, um, let's talk about the, uh, Silence of the Lambs thing, which I call it that. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I have not seen the movie, so you've got to fill me in.

Paul Adelstein: Here's what happens in Silence of the Lambs. Okay. The FBI is closing in on the bad guy's door. Yeah. Right? And you see inside, the bad guy has this woman locked up, and it's a very horrible, scary thing, and the FBI is getting closer and closer to this house.

At the same time, Jodie Foster is in another town, far away, looking for some people that knew one of the victims, trying to [00:29:00] narrow this down. And it cuts between these three things, closer and closer, closer, closer, closer. Until finally, she knocks on the door, the FBI's about to bust in this guy's door, he opens it, and she's standing there.

And what you realize is that they've tricked you, they're at the, and then, and then Scott Glenn realizes the FBI's at the wrong house, and Jodie Foster's in danger. But at the same time that the audience realizes it. So it's a trick of filmmaking, and it's kind of cheating, in a way, because they keep fooling the audience.

By cutting from the FBI in this house to inside the house and it's a different house. And that's basically what they do with Fibonacci. It's the same thing, which is like, you think you're in, these people are in, in location A, actually in location B. Yeah, they keep showing Fibonacci as these guys are getting closer and closer and he's not.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You know, it is a trick. Um, yeah,

Paul Adelstein: and I think it [00:30:00] wasn't used before then and maybe I'm wrong, maybe some. Cinephile will tell me that it was used many, many times before, but I remember at the time thinking like, that's cheating. Everybody kind of was like, that was amazing, but it's kind of cheating narratively.

I think it's used all the time now. I tend

Sarah Wayne Callies: not to mind it because it's, it's a cool moment of, oh, I didn't see that coming. Also,

Paul Adelstein: I think what's effective about it is it's not just fooling the audience. It's the, like, it's also the way they fool Falzone. For sure. For sure. It's like what happens to Falzone, the same thing happens with the audience.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm hmm. And he gets his comeuppance, which we all feel like he deserves. Yes, that's right. It's, I mean, it's beautifully done. And I, like, we talked about this a little bit in the watch party, but I really, that scene where Michael and Abruzzi are talking to Falzone. I think is done really beautifully, because as I watch that scene, my first question is, Where the [00:31:00] hell did Abruzzi get a picture of Veronica?

And then you sort of think, well maybe that's lazy writing, maybe that's just a, a buy. And then there's a payoff at the end and you realize that they were performing for each other and for Falzone, and it was super effective, but that there was one crack that felt so honest when Michael says, promise me you won't hurt him.

And they cut to Abruzzi looking over at Michael with the gears turning. And then in the final scene in the jail cell, Abruzzi says to Michael, you are gonna give me Falzone. You're gonna give, uh, oh. No, I'm sorry. You are gonna give me Ibnachi. Uh huh. Right? Because he realizes Michael will actually go to great lengths to protect an innocent man.

Paul Adelstein: Right. And although they are allied in this situation. They won't be forever. They're such different people. And they're such different people. Yes. Oh, that's really smart.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And, and regardless of what happens with [00:32:00] Falzone, Abruzzi wants Fibonacci dead. And we'll always want him dead, no matter whether or not he's in or out of prison.

And so, it sets up, I can't remember specifically, but I have a feeling several episodes downstream, and this is one of the things I love about the show, several episodes downstream, there'll be a, Fish, I don't know if I trust you about this moment, which, um, which I think is really cool. And, you know, three terrific actors doing really good work.

Paul Adelstein: I also think that, um, one of the fun things about this show is sometimes the audience is ahead of the characters, sometimes they're with the characters, and sometimes they're behind the characters as they are in that, in that scene, in that dynamic. Um, it's so, it's just so much fun to realize that they've fooled the audience.

Zone and that they fooled the audience at the same time. Alright, we're gonna be right back after this and we're gonna get to fan questions. We'll be right back. Yay.[00:33:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Alright everybody, welcome back ladies, gentlemen, and phishes, um, phishes one and all. Okay. Fan questions, by the way. Thank you guys for sending these in. It's really fun for us to, uh, take a look at some of these and I know we don't get to all of them, um, and keep the faith. And these

Paul Adelstein: are from, these are from, um, our Instagram.

Hey, which is, uh, At Prison Break Podcast. Uh, and this is from Stephanie Reed 4732. Sarah, do you wish there had been more scenes between Sarah and Nika? Yes, I do. Didn't even realize they were coming up. Right. Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes, I do. No, I think I, you know, Prison Break very rarely passes the Bechdel test. Um, very, very, very

Paul Adelstein: rarely.

Tell us what the.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The Bechdel test. I'm not sure I'm going to get this totally right, but the Bechdel test was a joke. invented by [00:34:00] a woman whose last name was Bechtel. I think she might have been a television journalist. And the joke was, can a television show or a feature film, um, uh, Can or does? Yeah, does an episode or does a feature film, um, satisfy these three things?

Are, are there more than one, is there more than one female character with a name? Do they talk to each other? And do they talk about something other than a man? And, you know, the idea is it's such a low bar that any sad and funny piece of entertainment should be able to, to get over it. And it is staggering how much film and television does it.

And I, you know, for all my love for the show, um, I don't know that, There's a single scene, a single, uh, episode in season one that would pass the Bechdel test because of course when Sarah and Nika talk, they talk about Michael. [00:35:00] Um. Yes. I

Paul Adelstein: don't think there's, I mean, I think, and I can't think of any other scene that has two women in it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I mean, Sarah and Nurse Katie, but again, they're talking about Michael.

Paul Adelstein: Right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: There you go. Okay. So, you know, 2005, we've, we've come a distance. Um, but yes, I would have loved for there to be, An entire episode of Sarah and Nika sitting down at a coffee shop, just going, you know, what do you see here?

This is what I see here. Also, you know, teach me how to put on lipstick. You do because you're really good at it. Um, so yeah, there we go. That's

Paul Adelstein: that. Yep. Our next question comes from PB underscore Misa, M I S A underscore lovers. I believe that's Michael Sarah. Sarah was, was filming the Misa Rose scene. As sweet as it was on screen.

A great question. That's a great question.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm going to tell you something about filming that scene and part of where my [00:36:00] smile came from. Oh no. Sometimes as actors, we do very silly things. I picked up the rose, I looked at it, I moved it to my face, and I realized as I was moving it to my face, Sarah, you're about to smell a paper rose.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, but it seemed so natural. Moron. I didn't even think of that. I didn't even think

Sarah Wayne Callies: of Of course it doesn't smell. It's a piece of paper. It was made in prison. perfume on it. Prison perfume. Maybe he put perfume on it. Prison perfume. You, let's not think too hard about what prison perfume might be. But yes, that is part of where, that is part of where that smile came from.

Um, okay, I'm going to go to a Paul question. Okay. Um, I am Awkward Aaron asked Paul, how was it filming yours and Daniel Hale's first scene with Michael Gaston? I feel like we actually sort of answered that one. I feel like we covered that. Because it was great. So, Awkward Aaron, I hope you feel, you know, that, um,

Paul Adelstein: That we got to that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Uh, yeah. Um, [00:37:00] but I like this one from, uh, at Sarah and Callie's Appreciation. Can you two watch Prison Break for what it is? Or do you still quote unquote, know too much and remember all the unseen stuff behind the camera. And if you were watching it as a viewer, what would your thoughts on the characters be yourselves and each other?

I'm curious, like, we're now, you know, almost halfway through season one. Are you able to watch it for what it is? Or do you feel encumbered by the past?

Paul Adelstein: I think that it's, uh, I think that it's easier to see now than it was at the time, even though you saw it at the time. But I will also say, That, um, it's like going to, uh, if you're a little older, you go to your first college reunion at five years, and then at ten years if you go, part of the memories that you're experiencing are the memories of the reunion, and then you go to your 20th and you talk about your 10th reunion and your 5th reunion and college.

So it just kind of comes layer and layer. So when I watch [00:38:00] Prison Break now, I'm seeing the show, I'm also seeing, oh, I remember watching this the first time it was on, I remember what that reaction was, I remember that feeling, I don't have that feeling anymore, I do have that feeling anymore. I think though, to answer your question a little, uh, more directly, Sarah Wayne Kelly's Appreciation, is that, no wait, that's not, that's not who asked that question, I'm sorry.

Yeah, it is.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, sorry. Yes. Um, is that? Yeah, it's easier to see with, with some distance because I think, you know, it was one of the first things I did a lot of episodes of. I think it was the second thing I was a series regular on that it's, you, you, you're so caught up in. Yeah. Yeah. You know, whether you're doing your job, um, well, and, and how you can get better that that, that, that sometimes you have to get out of actor mode and time certainly helps with that.

But I also will say, I remember enjoying the show itself so much at the time, um, you [00:39:00] know, I don't think I knew when we were shooting it, how stylized and cool looking and cool sounding it would be. So it was really, was kind of always fun to see it, Put together every week and

Sarah Wayne Callies: especially like this one. I mean, I know we talked about this during the rewatch, but like I, I think Dwight Little shot the living daylights out of this.

Yeah. What about you? Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm watching a different

Paul Adelstein: person. , like, so does that allow you to see the show as a whole? Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. The dis the distance is, the distance is beautiful for me to just be like, oh, I, I mean, once we get to a certain point, I will be watching it for the first time, but, um, uh, uh, I feel like I'm watching it for the first time because, because I'm seeing what's there.

Not, oh, I wish they'd used this take, or, ooh, I really wish I'd done that differently. Like, I'm just, I'm just kind of taking in, for the most part, [00:40:00] what's there. I don't, you know, lines that have changed, scenes that have cut, I don't even remember them.

Paul Adelstein: Mm

Sarah Wayne Callies: hmm. Mm hmm. Which is pretty cool. Which brings us, in some ways, I think, to At Weston Perspectives question.

Paul, how did you like being the bad guy in season one and two compared to your eventual redemption

Paul Adelstein: arc? I loved it. I didn't often get to play bad guys and, um, what was really fun about this particular bad guy, I liked, um, being able to figure out how, you know, to make this person empathetic to me. Not to the audience.

Um, how, you know, to get in this guy's head, which is that he believes he's doing the right thing. He's, he's not, he's not a sadist, maybe a little bit, but a sadist with a cause. Um, I really believed he was a, a, um, patriot and that he was doing the right thing even if he was kind of going outside the [00:41:00] law to do it.

I really enjoyed exploring that. And then just from a purely do the doings as an actual teacher of mine used to say, the things that Kellerman gets to do are so fun because in almost every scene, and this is what's different about the scene with Quinn in this episode, is he gets what he wants in almost every scene that he's in.

He wins almost every scene that he's in.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, there is a scene with an iron in season two.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Okay. Thanks. Ciao. Let's take it easy. Uh, No, that's going to be fun to watch. Um, and I normally played characters that were super, um, they were either very emotional or they were damaged in some way that made them kind of hyper reactive, which was the assignment.

And in this case, I felt like It was almost the opposite of that. It was like, [00:42:00] how steady could this person remain in the face of any obstacle? And that was so much fun to do. That's

Sarah Wayne Callies: really cool. You

Paul Adelstein: did it really well. I really enjoyed it. And there's something about, you know, when I, one of the reasons I wanted to be an actor is because as a little kid I loved playing cops and robbers.

It's like you get to play cops and robbers.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And in some ways you got to be both.

Paul Adelstein: That's right. And run around with a badge, you know. And run around with a badge. It was, it

Sarah Wayne Callies: was fun. Okay, I think that brings us to the wrap up. Um, but before we get there, um, Remember that you can Get the Watch Party episodes, and hear all of these, uh, podcast episodes by subscribing to our show on Patreon.

Um, the link will be in the episode notes, and the Watch Party's here. fun, I hope, I think. You know, you hit play, we hit play, we watch the show together. It's kind of a throwback to [00:43:00] like, the DVD commentary kind of thing. Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: sometimes we're totally, uh, engrossed in the show and sometimes we're just talking, talking, talking.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Like a bunch of idiots.

Paul Adelstein: Also, don't forget we have a contest from this episode, which is send us your best answers to what is happening on the other side of Prague that makes Nika Volek only the hottest Eastern European woman on this side of Prague. Winner will be announced on our Instagram at Prison Break Podcast, and we will send you a merch mug as a prize.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, and in the meantime, this, you know, is the episode where Lincoln also gets his last meal card, and there's this really touching, uh, blueberry pancakes flashback. And after the holidays, I have a new answer to my last meal, uh, wrap up question. Um, I don't remember what I said before, but I was in French Polynesia, over the holidays.

I've never been, [00:44:00] um, to that part of the world. And they had this food called po'e. It's not poi, P O I, like we have in Hawaii, and that's pounded taro. Um, po'e is P O apostrophe E. Uh, we call it an okina in Hawaii. I don't know what they call it in Tahiti. Um, so it's just like pudding with like fruit and coconut milk and taro in this kind of like almost mochi consistency.

What's taro? Taro? It's a, um, it's a tuber. This is where you go, it's not a

Paul Adelstein: tuba, come on. What's a tuba?

Sarah Wayne Callies: A tuba, it's like, it's like a root vegetable, like a, like a potato or a, I don't know, beet, rutabaga, something. Yeah, so it, they grow them in, um, wetland taro is grown in like a, almost like a rice patty kind of a situation where it's very wet and muddy.

The leaves grow above the water and then below the rope, the water is this like, it kind of looks like a potato and you mash it, but it gets really, why are [00:45:00] you laughing so hard? , because it was

Paul Adelstein: turned, I'm imagining you in solitary writing this on a card and then

Sarah Wayne Callies: explain when I walked from my last

Paul Adelstein: meal and then, and then Phil Van Lear being like, yeah, we don't have that,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you know.

No, this is my pet.

Paul Adelstein: This is Vox River. They're never gonna execute me. You want meatloaf? Do you want meatloaf? Do you want fries and a burger? We don't have poe. Because they have

Sarah Wayne Callies: to go find someone in Tahiti who knows how to make this. Convince them to come.

Paul Adelstein: Just kill her. Just kill her. She wants coconut milk and taro.

What? I don't know. Just kill her. Let's just kill her. Look at this fucking card. Look at this card. Look at all this writing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: These are my rights, Paul. These are my death row rights. And then,

Paul Adelstein: and then they couldn't kill her for 25 years because they had to find

Sarah Wayne Callies: Exactly. You see? She extended her life. For all of you out there listening from death row, oof, that took a turn.

Never mind. Yes, sorry. Um, [00:46:00] okay, but if I'm put to death, uh, papaya and mango poi for me.

Paul Adelstein: Um Okay, I just have one more poi question. Is there savory and sweet poya, or is it more of a deserty?

Sarah Wayne Callies: There might be. I was only there for like six days, and so everyone I had was fruit based and very sweet.

Paul Adelstein: Sounds delicious.

You're a terrible person. No! That was not sarcasm. That sounds delicious. Also, how long does it take to get to French Polynesia from where you live?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, there was a direct flight from Seattle. Okay. And it was nine and a half hours long.

Paul Adelstein: And it's just over ocean the whole time. Oh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. I mean, you know, if the plane goes down, you're all going

Paul Adelstein: for a swim.

Yeah, I mean, you're all going down anyway if a plane goes down, but like, I just always think about the ocean. But like, what if there could be a landing? Like there's no landing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: There's no, there's no landing. Um, although, I mean, that Alaska Airlines flight just had a door come off in the middle of the flight.

Yeah, but

Paul Adelstein: they were only at [00:47:00] 10, 000 feet and they're only at 16, 000 feet in 10 minutes from the airport. So. All right, well. And no one was sitting in those seats. Which was a

Sarah Wayne Callies: miracle makes you rethink the aisle seats a

Paul Adelstein: makes you rethink a lot of things

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, that's it for us folks

Paul Adelstein: Uh, thank you so much for joining us um, we can't wait to get into the next episode and Remember try not to go to prison But if you do go to prison, Sarah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Ask for Poi as your last meal. Remember to ask for a very complicated last meal that will extend your life.

Paul Adelstein: Especially on your very first day.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Caliber Studio production. Your hosts have been friends, but not besties, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Edelstein. Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haber. Our head of Jailhouse Rock is Paul Edelstein. Paul Edelstein who [00:48:00] made the music for this podcast Keeping us Slim and Trim.

The Prison Yard has been sound designer and editor. The great Jeff Schmidt keeping us up to date on the outside world is production Assistant Drew Austin. Our prison artist logo and brand designer is John Zito and Little Big Brands. Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com. Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast.

Email us at prison breaking@caliberstudio.com and call us at four oh one.

Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a Calibre Studio production. Thank you for listening.