Episode 13 – Kara Swisher Tammy Haddad: [00:00:00] *Crowd cheers* we all know what a great hard worker. Here she is. Saturday night, Washington A. I. Network, the biggest week of your life, and she chose to be with all of you tonight. Kara Swisher: Yeah. Tammy Haddad: Thank you, Kara. Tammy Haddad: Thank you. Thank you. Tammy Haddad: Okay. Kara Swisher: I actually forgot I said yes, that's why. Tammy Haddad: Okay. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. It's like, ah, an evening by myself. Kara Swisher: Well, you know what? Well, you may have forgotten. These folks here have been working all week on their questions. Kara Swisher: Oh, fantastic. Tammy Haddad: Ask Kara anything, but I get to ask the questions first. Tammy Haddad: Welcome to the Washington AI Network podcast. I'm Tammy Haddad, the founder of the Washington AI Network, where we bring together official Washington, D. C. insiders, and AI experts who are challenging, debating, and just trying to figure out the rules of the road for artificial intelligence. This AI revolution has been led by industry and governments [00:01:00] are running to catch up. Tammy Haddad: Okay, so you're already an Amazon bestseller. Yeah, right. You're already on all the different categories. Kara Swisher: Well, computer and technology memoirs. Uh, history for some reason. Um, and Tammy Haddad: History? What do you mean some reason? Don't you, I mean you really tell that story. Kara Swisher: Yes I do, yeah. Tammy Haddad: Right from the insider. That's good. Kara Swisher: Popular culture. Tammy Haddad: There's a documentary probably coming. You know, an HBO documentary or something. Kara Swisher: Sure, sure. Tammy Haddad: On the history. Tammy Haddad: Yeah. Tammy Haddad: Right? I mean I know you've already done Silicon Valley. Tammy Haddad: That's true. Tammy Haddad: Yeah. Who would you have playing you, by the way, if you did that? Not the documentary, but the new Silicon Valley. Tammy Haddad: Oh, Holly Hunter probably. Maybe. Tammy Haddad: Really? Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah. Tammy Haddad: Wow. But it has been a hell of a week. I don't know how many went to Sixth and I. Kara appeared here with Laurene Powell Jobs two nights ago. Tammy Haddad: And somebody, a spy, actually some of the Washington AI Network, one of our reporters was in line and they heard someone say, when did Kara become [00:02:00] Taylor Swift? They had to wait an hour. And why do you think this book has hit so hard? I mean, look, you're out there on media all the time. Kara Swisher: I am. Tammy Haddad: But, but, is this like a moment in history? Kara Swisher: No, I think, you know, the book is really late, actually. It's two years late, which, to the consternation of Simon and Schuster. But, it's actually perfectly timed, because right now we're all talking about AGI. In the interim, if it had come out two years ago, things wouldn't have happened. One, Elon lost his mind. Two, AGI started to become really important. Sort of the collapse of crypto and we're at a new inflection point. And so it's a really good time to reflect on what's come before because it really is a memoir of what came before to give us some guidance to where to go in the future. So I think it's well timed. Other thing is it's really easy to read. It really is. You'll find it super easy to read. I tried to do a history of, The internet in a, not for dummies, but it's very fast paced, and so you get a sense of how it went from one thing to the next, and how these people who are, you know, nobodies, became the richest people in [00:03:00] the world, and since I met them before they were that, um, and well, right when they started, it gives you a good sense of their journeys, each of their journeys, the different, it's not everybody, I've got a million stories not in there. Tammy Haddad: I was going to say, what got cut out? Kara Swisher: Nothing got cut out, I just forgot about it. You know, I said that in the index, like, if you're not in here, I forgot about you. I just don't know why. But, you know, a couple people I've run into on this tour, they're like, remember me? And I'm like, vaguely. Like, I'd spent a long time writing about Yahoo and Marissa Mayer and all the different CEOs that were there. There was Carol Barts, there was a whole bunch. And I did a ton of reporting on that, and I thought, I don't care anymore. I don't think readers will either. It didn't matter. Like, it's sort of So I, I, I left, I tried to keep it to themes by using the different characters to go through a theme, whether it was Travis Kalanick around gender issues because he was such a terrible person, is such a terrible person, I assume he's not gotten better. Um, and, you know, Mark represents something, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon represents a through [00:04:00] line throughout, and Steve Jobs, the various, and Jeff Bezos. Tammy Haddad: But if you could right now. Go into any of these companies, which you know better than any other reporter right now. Yeah, okay switch jobs. What company would you want to take over? Kara Swisher: Wow, that's interesting probably Meta I would do some things. Tammy Haddad: David Kara Swisher: I would do some things because it's the most important company still in Right at this moment. It doesn't mean it's going to continue to be, but, you know, they've got a lot of stuff and they have a lot of impact news flows over Facebook right now still. Instagram is enormous. You know, I like threads a lot as David knows. Uh, although it's a low bar because Twitter's gotten such to be such a toxic waste dump. But I, I probably meant it's probably the most substantive in terms of impact on a wide range of people. You know, Apple would be fun, but I'm not that person, so. Tammy Haddad: Well, what about X right now? What would you do to fix it? Kara Swisher: I [00:05:00] don't think it's fixable now, he's correct. Tammy Haddad: Close it down? Kara Swisher: Well, no, just today, they just, again, dropped the valuation, and I think they're, it's kind to call it worth 12 billion dollars. They, they've dropped it from 44 to 12 now. So it's, and that's kind because I think the revenues have dropped. Kara Swisher: It was never a big company. People forget. Twitter was a terrible Tammy Haddad: It was always complicated. Kara Swisher: It wasn't complicated. It was a bad business. Just a bad business. It was always, you know, their stock sort of bounced along the bottom at $19.00 until Elon put up that amount of money, that 54 or whatever the heck that was on a, probably after a bad night. Tammy Haddad: What do you think his exit strategy is? Kara Swisher: There isn't one. It's Tammy Haddad: you don't think Elon Musk says he doesn't think hey, maybe I'll get out of this. This is how I'll do it. Kara Swisher: Well, he's hoping that he can use AI because Twitter has so much data, right? He's got a ton of data and that's that's its strength And so any any company that has a lot of data is is in the AI situation So he's trying to use AI to bring [00:06:00] it to the next thing. Unfortunately, um, he's trying to take most of, he has, it's called XAI, I guess. He's using Twitter data and not paying Twitter shareholders the correct amount of value for it. So he's hoping to turn it into an AI company, I, I guess, that's his goal. Um, it, it makes sense, it does, it makes sense. Um, he's just sued OpenAI because he's... Tammy Haddad: What's the goal with that? Just to mix it up? Kara Swisher: No, he's just a jerk. Tammy Haddad: This is the second suit, right? Kara Swisher: No, he had Tammy Haddad: I mean, it's business purposes. Kara Swisher: No, no, it's not business purposes. He's just really hurt that he's not the cool kid anymore. He's not the cool kid. Sam is. Tammy Haddad: By the way, Sam's interviewing you. Kara Swisher: He is, on, when? Thursday? Thursday. Tammy Haddad: You can't go. It's sold out. Kara Swisher: It's sold out. What I did as a tour is that people in the book are, are Interviewing me, which I think is more fun, um, and interesting, and more interesting conversations, but, you know, he's trying to make Tammy Haddad: More interesting than this one? Kara Swisher: Ha, ha, ha, ha. Tammy Haddad: More interesting than the questions these folks Kara Swisher: I'm, I'm excited Tammy Haddad: You're going to walk over there. I don't know who's first, but that's where we want you to [00:07:00] walk to. Go ahead. Kara Swisher: Um, so, I think, you know, he, it's, it's, read the lawsuit. It's ridiculous. It's, it's all about someone's personal, uh, mental challenges because they weren't, because they didn't win. Kara Swisher: He was zeroed out of there because he, he wanted to take control and they declined that kind offer of taking control. And, um, so now he's claiming there was a contract in place. There's no, go talk to any lawyer. There's no contract here. And, and it's a litany of, of grievance, really. That's what he's doing now, grievance. But he's the richest man in the world, so it doesn't matter. And he's got SpaceX coming up. Um, although I suspect, um, the Defense Department is quite worried about his, him. Tammy Haddad: Are there any official investigations? Kara Swisher: Lots of them. Lots of them. There's all kinds of investigations. But, you know, like Trump, he gets out of a lot of them. Um, and, you know, he's rich. Like, there's no reason. It's like owning a yacht. Like, even if you have a ridiculous Tammy Haddad: Super yacht? Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yes, it is. Tammy Haddad: Just checking. Yeah. Kara Swisher: But it's not, it's, um, [00:08:00] you know, it's like owning a yacht. He's just decided to spend money on this because his ego and his need for attention and his desperate need for attention. You know, all of his mental issues are playing out there. All of his, and, you know, obviously you read the journal, the drug use is not insubstantial, I think. Um, and the, Tammy Haddad: Well, you've been talking about that for a long time. Kara Swisher: Years. I was glad someone finally wrote about it. Tammy Haddad: And why do you think all the people that are partying with him at various places aren't coming forward? Kara Swisher: The board? You mean the board of Tesla? Tammy Haddad: Well, that's, that was reported in the Wall Street Journal. Kara Swisher: That was a great story, because, well, why? They're made hundreds of millions of dollars if this, you know, it's sort of like hanging around Howard Hughes, right? That's I think what it's akin to. You don't care if he's going crazy if you can walk away with a hundred million dollars. You don't want it. It's not in your interest to get him how much needed help. Tammy Haddad: So you're an incredibly powerful person. You're very powerful. Kara Swisher: No, I'm not. Tammy Haddad: Well, you are. Kara Swisher: Okay, sure. Tammy Haddad: And you, no, but all the people you wrote about, or [00:09:00] maybe even if you talked to half of them, but if you went to them and you said, listen, this is a moment you can all do better. Kara Swisher: Mmmmm. Tammy Haddad: Do you think anyone would listen to that? Kara Swisher: I have been doing that for 30 years. Tammy Haddad: But I'm talking about today. Kara Swisher: No. Tammy Haddad: You could call all of them. You could call Bob. Kara Swisher: No. Tammy Haddad: You could call Brian. Kara Swisher: No. No. I mean, no. Tammy Haddad: So you're saying there's nothing anything can do unless the government steps in. Kara Swisher: That's correct. I don't have subpoena power. I don't have an ability to write regulation. I think we have abrogated, I think our regulators and our public officials have for all kinds of reasons. Um, and there's, look, there's no rules, I mean, there's regular rules for them, but not, every company, every industry has specific rules that apply to them, and I, I've been using this week the example of the door blowing off that Alaska Airlines thing, and there are 750 planes were grounded, investigations, firings, people got fired for that, [00:10:00] right, people in charge of various things, and there's going to be legislation, I'm certain, you know, to deal with how, uh, how things are done, there'll be lawsuits, Um, tons of lawsuits. And that's how our system works. And it's not a bad thing. Um, when you make mistakes and you're sloppy, which these, looks like that's the case here. Um, we'll see what happens. You pay for, for mistakes. And I think internet companies and tech companies should be, uh, be under liability, which they are largely not. Now, I'm not talking about if there's an HR thing or something like that. Everybody is under the same rules. But I'm talking about specific legislation around privacy, around algorithmic transparency, on anti hacking disclosure. I could name twenty, a couple of years ago I wrote the Internet Bill of Rights. Here's ten bills I would pass. I think Ro Khanna was It's trying to get that done with Nancy Pelosi, but it never got done, so it doesn't matter. Tammy Haddad: So if someone from the White House or the Pentagon called you today, or maybe they're here in this room, and they said, Kara, what [00:11:00] should we do? Is there any specific thing you would say other than regulate? Kara Swisher: I think the private, I, I, I'm a, the first line of the book is, so it was capitalism after all. I think private companies having so much power or as critical infrastructure, including national security, is problematic. I'm sorry, it just doesn't make any sense. And I get that big companies have long been part of the government's, you know, they, they, but they don't run everything. These people are making decisions. The government's abrogated real research money into AI. It's all controlled by four companies right now, um, who, who, who are, you know, who are now getting some pushback from copyright. Um, which is a very, which we have very strong copyright laws, but it's like pushing back the ocean with these people, and so, um, you know, it can work, look, music has, music looked like it was on the ropes with Napster, and then they sued them out of existence, essentially, but they eventually worked it out, they worked out, this is our content, this is what you're going to pay for it, this is what you're [00:12:00] Tammy Haddad: Come on in, Symone. Kara Swisher: Hi, Symone. Tammy Haddad: Symone and Crystal, ladies and gentlemen, come on in. We've got a seat there. Is there some seats there? There you go. Simone, you're here just in time. Do you have a question for Kara? Symone Sanders: I do, actually. I saw Cara on the news. Kara Swisher: On the news. Symone Sanders: Congratulations. Kara Swisher: Thank you, Simone. Symone Sanders: Cara, look, the people, are you concerned that. First of all you're You're saying the quiet part out loud. I think the things that Everybody thought, but you know for sure. Kara Swisher: Yeah. Symone Sanders: Are you concerned about backlash? Are you concerned that, um, any of the criticism? Kara Swisher: Um, against me? Symone Sanders: Yeah. Kara Swisher: What backlash would there be? That they're mad at me? Symone Sanders: Any backlash, yeah. Kara Swisher: I don't care. I don't care. And also, Roberta Kaplan's my lawyer, so, Um, that's good. She volunteered to be my lawyer in case Elon sued me. She's like, absolutely. Um, she's actually in a case that's just ridiculous. [00:13:00] That they're suing the CHCD. It's a group of people that basically used public Twitter information about hate speech on Twitter. And he's sued them, he's trying to silence them, because he loves that First Amendment. Um, free speech. So, no, he couldn't, I mean, that's, that, that would be the, probably the person, because he's so unstable, to do that just because he's rich. But no, I don't expect a backlash. I think really smart people. I've gotten a lot of actual, like, this was good, this was good, this, you know. I don't know. Tammy Haddad: I'm trying to move her to the next level, though, so I'm trying to move her to getting these guys together. Kara Swisher: I can't. Tammy Haddad: And doing something. Why not? Kara Swisher: Because I don't have that power. I know you think I do, but I don't. I can just suggest things and talk about them, like issues, like a lot of different things that are going on, and that we should pay attention, because, you know, artificial general intelligence is the next big, Landscape and computing. This is not cryptocurrency. This is big. This is a huge thing. It's going to change jobs all over the world, really. Tammy Haddad: And speaking of that, our first question is from [00:14:00] the great Miriam Vogel. You guys know her, the head of Equal AI. And she's been working on AI for five years. Miriam, go ahead with your question. Miriam Vogel: Thank you, tammy. Uh, Kara, my question is, in, in following you and, and listening to you on Pivot, et cetera, I think it's fair to call that a semi religious experience. Kara Swisher: Oh, thank you. Miriam Vogel: Hearing your sermon from there twice a week from a rabbi, Kara. Good show. And, and, yeah, Scott. We can hear some optimism. We can hear some tech optimism, certainly from Scott and certainly from you. But as we read in your books, I think the technical term you called these guys were assholes. Some of them. Kara Swisher: Yeah. Miriam Vogel: And, and, so, I think the predominant message that we're hearing in our audiences across the country, and the world, on AI is fear. Kara Swisher: Fear. Miriam Vogel: People are afraid of being replaced, losing their job, bias, discrimination, all totally reasonable. Kara Swisher: Lots of issues. Miriam Vogel: National security. Kara Swisher: You left out killer robots, but go ahead. Miriam Vogel: Absolutely. [00:15:00] So, but you remain optimistic. Kara Swisher: I do, partially. Miriam Vogel: Share with us how we can embrace that. I share your optimism, but how do you respond to that? Kara Swisher: There's, okay, there's a lot of people that are either, I was just, I'm not dropping names, but Sam and I are going to talk so we just talked before this a little bit about what we're going to, that's my son, one of my kids. Um, hey, hush you! Um, I did it, I did it, um, I think that what's really interesting to think about is there's two groups of people right now. The techno optimists Techno Optics slash Accelerationists, AI Accelerationists, and the Decelerationists. I think they're both full of shit, right? You know what I mean? Because there can't be I had one person who was on the board of OpenAI who was like, If Sam Altman doesn't stop, humanity is doomed. And I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Like, this is ridiculous. It's a larger, bigger playing field. At the same time, you have someone like Marc Andreessen with his nonsense of, you're either for us or against us. How ridiculous. to be concerned about safety issues, and also interested in the positive parts. And I'll [00:16:00] start with the positive parts. You know, um stuff around cancer research, stuff around figuring out, uh, waste, there's a lot of waste in this world, how to figure that out, how to figure out answers to things that, there's so much data and pulling out really good answers and having really good, and I'm not talking about the weirdnesses that happen, that'll work itself out, it really will, but, you know, there's all kinds of answers in that data that we could really help us, especially around healthcare, especially around, Things like hunger, climate change tech, there's all kinds of possibilities here. There's so much great information, so much data, weather data, you know, all kinds of stuff. It also can relieve us of a lot of stuff that we do that's rote, right? You can think of that. At the same time, and a lot of prominent AI scientists like Dr. Fei Fei Lee, who I really love. Um, Jeff Hinton are worried because of, they're not worried about the A. I., they're worried about people using the A. I. as is appropriate. And so I really [00:17:00] worry that, like one of the stories in the book was when the Google fellas the twins were, Trying to take over Yahoo. They would have had 97 percent of the market share, which I thought was a lot. And it was a monopoly. Like if they did that, of course they didn't think that way because it was efficient, et cetera. And I didn't think they should have control over pricing of all of digital advertising. That's what would have meant so many different things to search at that time. Now it's less so now because it's spread out a little bit more, but, um, But they would have had unlimited power in that area. And, one, I wrote a piece that I said, um, this is just ridiculous that they could have them, and the Obama administration was bear hugging them. Let me just say, I wasn't, it isn't Democratic or Republican, the Obama people really dropped the ball. Tammy Haddad: She was there. Kara Swisher: Sorry, they did. Tammy Haddad: Not in that role. Kara Swisher: They dropped the ball, they dropped the ball. Um, in, in order to do something smart about it, before we got all this partisanship, now it's impossible. But, so I said to the, I wrote a piece and I said, one of the lines that really bugged them was this [00:18:00] line that says, At least Microsoft knew they were thugs. Like, Microsoft knew what they were like. Like, at the time, this is under Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer. Such is a different, uh, cat, essentially. And they called me. One of them called me and said, I'm not a thug. Why are you calling me a thug? He was all hurt. Like, I don't, can't believe it. I was like, what do you care what I think of you? Get yourself a dog, if you really want someone to love you. It's stupid. And I said, I'm not worried about you. This is something I talk about a lot. I'm not worried about you. You're, you are a nice, kind of nice person, right? I don't find you malevolent or villainous. But, and I quoted Yates with, you know, slouching towards Bethlehem, waiting to be born to them. And I said, there's someone coming, and it's going to be bad. Don't you understand history? There's always someone coming that's going to abuse these technologies. And you never think of them. And, and, and of course they didn't know anything I was talking about with the poem. And I was like, alright, fine, I'll try some meals. And I kept trying to like, get through to them, it's not you that I'm worried about, it's the next person who has unlimited power, and unlimited decision making, and is inept [00:19:00] to the job. Either inept, or Malicious, like worse still, but inept is just as bad in many cases. And so I was worried about that, and they just, it never, you know, it never sunk in that it was like the consequences of things they were doing would have repercussions for years to come. And the last thing, there's a quote in the book, that's the key quote in the book, which is a quote by Paul Verillio, which is, "when you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck. When you invent electricity, you invent electrocution. When you invent the plane, you invent the plane crash." I get it. Like, every technology comes with its negative side. But, can we have a lighthouse? Can we have good radar? Can we have, you know, an ability to control it? We don't have that. And that's, and they don't mind the plane crashes. They don't mind, and there's multiple ones. There's multiple shipwrecks. So, why is it crazy to say, let's put some things in place? Because it's, it's decimating industry. The media industry, decimated. I'm sorry, it's decimated. What, the repercussions of that are huge. [00:20:00] Right? Huge. Now, I don't think things shouldn't change, but it's, it's enormous. And then, but they don't care about repercussions, because they're all moving to Mars. You know, whatever. Tammy Haddad: Thank you, Miriam. And here is your special burn book glass coaster. Maryam, you're up next. Kara Swisher: What are you doing there? You're giving me this. Tammy Haddad: Come on, it's question. Oh, wait. Hold on. Matt's there. Matt, you go. Hey, Kara Swisher: Tammy always has like a swag thing. Tammy Haddad: Okay, here we go. Maryam Mujica. You don't want those. It's okay. What is your question for Kara Swisher? Maryam Mujica: So just earlier this week, I was listening to actually also one of your podcasts, a very devoted listener, and for a full disclosure, I did work for Google previously, and you had mentioned about, you know, this great concept about how a lot of these big tech companies were led by legends and that these new CEOs came on, and they made them better businesses. And you referenced, you made a passing reference about Apple and privacy. And if you were to ask a lot of people in this room, maybe those two things would come together in their minds, but it was always fascinating [00:21:00] to think, especially, maybe we were more aware of it at Google, that they have such a big operation in China. Kara Swisher: Yes, they do. Maryam Mujica: Um, and, Kara Swisher: That's like throwing mud at them with China, right? Yeah. Like, they are a privacy forward company, compared to Google. Google's an information thief, but go ahead. Maryam Mujica: But no, I, I mean, but with the operations that they have in China, it is, it It really exposes them in certain ways that other companies, like Dragonfly got closed down in terms of the China angle. And so do you think that's hypocritical in any way or misleading given the heavy, heavy, and I have to say, Microsoft also very, very heavy presence in China, but Kara Swisher: They, only Google doesn't, but they were there, they left for, because of all the hacking, but go ahead. Maryam Mujica: Well, no, so I just, it's just ironic. They're getting a pass, and also I think it's, it's fascinating how, despite that, Microsoft in many ways is running circles around other companies when it comes to regulation or government affairs. Kara Swisher: Yes, they always, Brad Smith is a very talented person. Maryam Mujica: So, how do you see that sort [00:22:00] of two sided? Kara Swisher: Well, this is China. We should not be making our phones in China. We just shouldn't. I never thought that. I've had a long argument with Apple over this. Even though there's been no proof that they're, they're, there was a big story that they were inserting all kinds of things within, uh, the things. There's never been proof. I would like proof, right? You know, that would be nice. I just think that we need to think about these things as surveillance devices. Tammy Haddad: Elizabeth Falcon's here from Warner's office. Do you wanna give her some proof after the interview? Kara Swisher: No, but there is. There is. No, not about the chip. There just isn't. They're just, I've done millions of done. Tammy Haddad: I'm just causing trouble here. I'm trying to be Kara Swisher. Okay, how am I doing? Come on now. Come on now. Kara Swisher: But you just made that up, so Yeah, that's different. That's true. I do think their exposure in China, not just for surveillance, but also their business is very, you know, they sell a lot into China, is problematic for them. That is their biggest, um, every company has a flaw. That would be theirs. That would, I would think that would be theirs, [00:23:00] um, if you had to pick it. Not on the way they could, they take care of your information. I think they're excellent on that. They really are. They really are. And, but that said, it doesn't really matter because China can come into this country. We have such an open landscape. I mean, there's a great book by Kashmir Hill called, I think it's Kashmir, was it Kashmir? I can't, no, it wasn't Kashmir. It's called, This is How They Tell Me the World Ends. And it's all about, it's on Kashmir, it's, whatchamacallit, um, uh, it's a great book because it makes you understand that we started the whole thing by creating all these tools, Stuxnet, things like that, and now the whole world, there is so much landscape for the Chinese, especially, because they're adept at it, and the Russians, not as adept. Just, they're more stealing money. That's their, that's their game, right? Chinese are really within all our environments. And at the same time, the Chinese, I, I, I wrote a column a couple of years ago saying this. When TikTok started to get popular, this was a long time ago, I said this is the best new product I've ever seen from terms of a piece of software. And so, social network, it's more [00:24:00] an entertainment network as far as I was concerned. And this is the best thing I've ever seen in years. And it's a surveillance network, and I use it on a burner phone. I got in so much trouble for saying that. I was like, what are you talking about? The Chinese Communist Party, this air balloons over Washington, of which there are many, by the way. Um, uh, we don't need a balloon. They've got, they're in 300 million phones, right? They're, they have so much data and information. So when it comes to Apple, absolutely. They have the China, the China thing. And also with Microsoft. With Google. So, they're, they have, I, they have not been an honest player around information and they have resisted every attempt to do any reasonable legislation around it. They also had a monopoly in search, just plain and simple. Now that's changed. We'll see where the Justice Department goes on that. I think it's probably too late, you know, because now Amazon does search, like, everybody does search now. So that's going to be changing. But I don't, I don't think they, I think Meta's been less, more sloppy around your [00:25:00] data than they have, but they are all sloppy because they don't have to be. Um, but you make a good point about China. Yes, they're exposed. Lots of our, but we shouldn't be making products like this in China. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Tammy Haddad: Thank you, Maryam. Okay, Matt Glassman, WRC. Matt Glassman: Hi, Cara. Kara Swisher: Hi. Matt Glassman: So you talk about media companies getting decimated, and I've seen you talk about how, um, they've been asleep at the wheel, they've lost all their advertising. Kara Swisher: Yeah. Matt Glassman: Question one is, is it too late for them? Question two is, if not, what's their path? And question three is, uh, what do you say to the companies right now that are the hot companies that have sort of taken their place so that the same thing doesn't happen to them in a couple decades? Well, you know, I, what is threads or Instagram or TikTok but entertainment? Matt Glassman: They are, and by the way, a purveyor of news now, just, not maker of news. But what happened is they came, I, I, I've said this a number of times already, I'll repeat myself, which is, when they started coming in with all their digital advertising stuff, I was very worried, I was like, wait a minute, that's the heart of it. And I was with Larry at [00:26:00] one point when he was trying to get the publishers to let him take all their books and put them in the Google system, scan the books. Then he just, he bought a library of them that were out of print to do it, but he couldn't get the new ones. And they rebuffed him initially. And then there were lawsuits when they did it just, they just did it. They just did it. It's crazy that you would do that with other people's IP. But they didn't care. And he came back and he was, I was with him and he goes, Ugh, they've all said no. And I said, of course they said no. Why would they give you their stuff? And he goes, because I'm going to make it available to everyone. I'm like, it's not yours to make available. Why would you do that? It's theirs. He's like information needs to be free. I said, well, you didn't pay for it. So sure. Yeah, that makes sense from your point of view. Because they thought the distribution wasn't a big deal, and these tech companies came in, and if you recall, uh, Facebook did this, we're gonna help you, New York Times, they did a deal, so did Google. They did all these deals, we're gonna give you money. Anyone shows up, we're gonna give you money to help you distribute our content. I turned them down, I was like, no fucking way, you're getting your hands on my shit. Like, no, I [00:27:00] can, I'll find audience myself. Um, so they came in and did that, and then, And for some reason, media companies did not think they were media companies, and they're media companies. Or... Tammy Haddad: well, they wanted to be part of the new thing. Kara Swisher: Yes, they wanted, yes, but they didn't have distribution. They didn't have, so one, they forgot to do technology themselves, but they were incapable of doing it. Steve Jobs was at a meeting of News Corp people and said, I don't care what you do, you can't beat me. He was honest about it. He's like, your, your tech people suck. All the good people work for me. They were moving into media. And for some reason, media didn't think they were. It's just a different media, right? It's different. So what's gonna happen, these are gonna have to be much smaller companies, and the costs are gonna have to meet revenue, and the revenue is declining for at least the broadcast, for sure. It's done. It's done. Tammy Haddad: So it's all nonprofits? Kara Swisher: No, you can either be owned by a rich person like a Laurene Powell Jobs or Jeff Bezos. That's one way to go, but that's I mean, very nice, Laurene is lovely, but still, you know, relying on the kindness of billionaires is [00:28:00] not something I like to do. Or you have to figure out a way to make smaller little companies, like you have Puck, you have Casey's. I did it for years. We did Vox. We did great. Well, no, Vox is a medium company. It's harder to be a medium company. But, you know, I had like, for my podcast, I happen to own all my IP. I have three employees. We make a ton of money. Like, great for me, but that's just me and four people, essentially. So they have to be a lot smaller, um, a lot more nimble. There's all kinds of stuff like that. Or you have to be quite Bigger. Like you have to be just bigger and dominant like the New York Times. But, like, which is considered the gold standard. Tammy Haddad: By the way, speaking of stealing IP, what about these AI generated Kara Swisher covers? Kara Swisher: I'll get to that in a second, but, uh, that's a good thing. It was, it's Amazon's nightmare that it was me that got stolen from. But in the case of the New York Times there revenues are $2.4 billion dollars. That's it. It's a small company. It's a small, it's a really small, and their, their profits are not that big. It's a hundred some million. That's a small [00:29:00] business. I'm sorry compared to Facebook, which I forget. David, you can tell me, was it $40 billion in net income or $40 billion in revenue in the quarter? I don't know. It's huge. I mean, it's like a, it's, it's a battleship compared to a small, New York Times is a small little boat, and that's our, that's our big winner, like problematic, and then these AI generated things. It's really interesting. So, Um, what happened, if you hadn't read about it, uh, I think the Times, I mean, the Post wrote about it. Um, Amanda, my wife, saw it. She's like, what are all these Kara Swisher books? She was searching for my book, and all these fake Kara Swisher books. AI, generated, AI generated all kinds of really ridiculous looks of me, and books about me. Tammy Haddad: Pantaloon pants. Kara Swisher: Yeah, right, pantaloon pants. Tammy Haddad: Big, giant earrings. It's beyond the looks of it. They were, they were pieces of shitty content. And what was amazing was They were selling them, and then they were pairing them, and Savannah Guthrie, for example, has written this best selling God book, um, and there was a workbook that Amazon was [00:30:00] selling with it, that was a fake work, it wasn't hers. And so I wrote Andy Jassy, I go, excuse me, my IP is being abused. Like, and you're selling it. And, you know, they're sort of like, well, we don't, we let people do things. I'm like, you're letting people steal my IP. I'm Gucci, and you're letting knock offs in my store. What are you doing? And so They were really like, oh no, of all the people, you know, it's Kara who, and it was, it was really, any, any book that's popular gets ripped off, and that's, that's a rip off of my IP, it's my brand, it's, it declines my brand, it affects them, I can probably sue them, like, what are you doing, why are you selling stuff, why are you allowing it, of course, it's out of control, because anyone can put books on Amazon, you can self publish on Amazon, So who, it's probably, I'm guessing it's from like Myanmar or the Philippines, people are just pushing the button and creating Kara Swisher books. And then they'll do it for everybody on the bestseller list. Tammy Haddad: Okay, Ellen, Ellen Ginsberg. Ellen Ginsberg: Hi, hi everybody. I was just wondering, obviously you have a pretty amazing [00:31:00] list of people you've interviewed. If there's somebody who's on your Wish list or your dream interview and also maybe who your favorite interview has been. Kara Swisher: You know, it has to be Jobs. They were so interesting. He's so smart and he was really challenging and he pushed back in a really good way. I, those were really, and of course he died, like, right? So, you know, that last interview when he died, before he died, was really something. He was so vibrant and so interesting and it's just, you never knew what he was gonna say and he was, like, in that interview he's like, look, this thing is gonna be big. This is 50, 000. 15 years he's dead now, something like that. He goes, this is gonna be huge. You have the pod and broadcasting. Podcasting. He named it. Like, are you kidding me? Like, I went back, I was like, this is where it was named. By this guy. Same thing with 10 or 12 things. So someone who had that kind of record. You know, it was really quite something, the stuff they made. It really, it was, that's, this is, that has been a special company in that regard. Changed the whole thing with, uh, with the, uh, with the iPhone. The iPhone [00:32:00] changed everything. Like, Uber wouldn't have done this. Airbnb like dozens, you know Instagram wouldn't exist and that's been terrific for Meta. Thank God they bought Instagram, you know, it's a real moneymaker. Um, and so, that that was for the person the person, the people I want to interview, I pretty much interviewed everybody. It's really crazy when I look at you showing them. It's really nuts how many people I've interviewed. Thousands of people, um, or hundreds and hundreds of people. Um, I want to do an interview, I think I said this at, at 6 and I, with, I want to interview Dolly Parton and Taylor Swift together. And I only, and I only want to talk about business. I, I do not care about boyfriends or Kentucky, I mean, sorry, but I don't care about Tennessee. Wherever she's from. I don't care. Whatever. Sweet Tennessee home. I don't want, I don't, I don't want to hear any little cuteness from her. I want to hear, she's very, she owns a ton of IP. She's managed her career in this astonishing way. Same thing with Taylor Swift. I'd recommend going back and seeing Miss Americana. Now that you know how it ends. She's [00:33:00] brilliant. She's a brilliant business person. So I would love to talk to them. I'm talking about songwriting, which is interesting. But their business acumen is massive. Talk about media people that really get it. And are making products. I'd love to do them, but together. Because I think that would be a really That would be my, I've, I've tried, I've tried, I've talked to Taylor's. Teresa Carlson: Well and also, Dolly, how she lived through that, very different. Kara Swisher: Very, exactly, but she owns a ton of IP, people don't realize that. Teresa Carlson: And does great things. Kara Swisher: Does great things with it. You know, I'm fine, I'm thrilled she gives away money or she supports Beyonce's country album, which is excellent. Um, but, I really want to talk about business, being entrepreneurs. That would be, you know, Taylor did that with the, with the Masters. Brilliant, brilliant what she did. She grabbed it from those, and I know them, they were assholes. that had her stuff. She took it back from them, and she's like, I'm taking the masters, and I'm gonna have a rela And the fan relationship is so interesting from her perspective. She doesn't need anybody. She doesn't need companies. And then she sold the movie. Just everything she does is [00:34:00] like, this is a really special business person, I think. Beyond the creativity. So that's what I'd like to do. But, so far, no. I've asked many times. Trooper Sanders: Hi there, Trooper Sanders. My day job, I run Benefits Data Trust. One part is we're trying to figure out, can you fix the American social safety net using AI responsibly? Big question. But my, uh, question for you is if you were the board chair of one of the big public AI companies, what would you recommend they stop? What would you recommend they start? To use AI responsibly and to keep their valuation? Kara Swisher: Right? Well, that's hard, right? You know, there's shortcuts for more money Um, I have not been asked to be on the board of open AI just so you know, but I've made suggestions to them. You know, Dr. Fei Fei Lee. I would like to have I'd like it to be a diverse group of people. But also experts, you don't want to just sort of virtue signal people, but there's, there's, I would focus in on safety being the company that's like, in the way Apple's the privacy company, I'd say that we're the [00:35:00] safety company, we're gonna responsibly copyright, buy copyright, have respect for copyright, where we get our data from, I would talk about data providence, where the data's from. I think that's critically important. I would, I would encourage Congress to pass data providence rules, so that everybody has to play that way, so that people can't just be fast and loose. I would, um, I would, I'd focus on safety. I thought the Biden administration's executive order was pretty interesting. It was, there was a lot around, um, not social justice, but bias. There was, it hit all the right notes, I think. And then also had a lot about innovation. I'd also want to really seed, I think the government should do this, seed a lot of companies, small companies, because these big companies are, because it's so, compute is so expensive. Kara Swisher: It's just impossible for small companies to live, um, in the current environment. So I would, I would have a huge government effort to, I would encourage that, but that's not in their interest. And then as evaluations. [00:36:00] You know, if you do the right thing, you're going to have a lesser valuation. It's just, it's easy. There's so many bad players. There's so many players that are taking shortcuts. And then I would protect against what's going on in China, because there are, right now, AI is in U. S. fueled, fueled. Yes, U. S. is ahead again, once again. This is our opportunity to push back. Tammy Haddad: Maybe you should be on that ad campaign. Maybe you should do it that way. We're ahead. Kara Swisher: I think we should have a federal agency about information. But then, of course, it has all those first, you know, you got Josh Hawley, but Josh Hawley will lose his small mind. Um, he's not, actually he's very smart, that's not true, but he's a terrible person. Um, uh, but, um, you know, we should probably have an agency, it's never gonna happen, but around this, around data, around this stuff, but it always runs into First Amendment thing, although they kind of, all these very loud tech people think they represent free speech, they're not. They don't have any idea. First Amendment's about the government. But there's, there's, there's, for some reason, [00:37:00] there's never going to be an information agency, but there probably should be. Tammy Haddad: Well, what about the new U. S. Safety Institute? That's a start right? Kara Swisher: Yeah, no, but, no, there needs to be like a cabinet level. You know, we have the chief information officer, my ex wife was one, but it's, it's gotta be, that's across all the agencies, and of course it has to be within them. There needs, I think there needs to be, you know, they've talked about it in Congress, but it will run right into the buzzsaw of People that thinks think it's 1984, there's just not gonna happen. Tammy Haddad: How do you use generative AI now? Kara Swisher: Me? Tammy Haddad: Yes. Kara Swisher: I use it all the time. I use, I try, I recommend everybody try it. 'cause it's not, it's in a crude form. It's like the early internet when you used it, it was like, what is it doing? It's a lot of glitches. I, I use it every day for different things. You have to figure out what it's using for, because when you use the iPhone for the first time, you didn't know what apps would be developed. Right. You didn't. So you have to use them all the time. You have to put, at the end of the book, I use it just as a joke, but, um, but it's, you can use it for all kinds of collating, I use it for history stuff, [00:38:00] and I don't rely on it, because it's, because the data is unclear. It's unclear what the data, you know, it's crap and, what is it? Garbage in, garbage out. Um, so I, I, like, I, I use it, different things. The other day, I was looking for some headlines, and I used it. Really good for that. Um, ideas, I'll put in, I'm thinking of doing this, it'll give me 200 ideas, about. 80 of them are stupid, and 20 of them are kind of interesting. I hadn't thought of it, because it has so much data. It's just not, you know, if I was a doctor, I'd be using it, you know. My brother is an anesthesiologist, and the way he uses it, he used to, if he has a difficult case, he would talk to three doctors, two of whom would not be right, right? So it doesn't really matter, and then he puts it into generative AI. He gets all kinds of stuff, then he can evaluate it. But it's also, he's always like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't thought of that. Like, drug interactions could be really, once they get really good data, that could be something. Because people die from drug interactions a lot. That doesn't have to happen when we have the good data in [00:39:00] there. You'd be surprised how many people die from drug interactions. Tammy Haddad: David Adler. David Adler: Yes. Hi, Cara. I, um, have to say I finished the entire book. Kara Swisher: Oh, okay. David Adler: Listened to it at 1. 35. Kara Swisher: Okay. David Adler: Uh, in one day, and it was fantastic. Kara Swisher: Thank you. David Adler: But it brought up the memories of what happened over your lifetime of coverage. Kara Swisher: Good. I'm glad. David Adler: And it reminded me of the entrepreneurial side of this thing. Kara Swisher: Mm hmm. David Adler: As an entrepreneur. Kara Swisher: Yeah. David Adler: I was able in 1999 to raise 4 million in the back of Zeke Brofman's Briss. Oh, cool. And then four months later. After the bubble burst, you couldn't raise any money. So I want to know, what is the runway for, for this new phase that we're in? And do we have time? Or is it... Kara Swisher: For AI? David Adler: For the whole new entrepreneurial, every angel group in America is going crazy supporting AI groups. Kara Swisher: Yes. Well, they should. It's gonna be we're gonna.... David Adler: How long will this, this, Kara Swisher: I don't know. For a while. This is really important. David Adler: This is a long one. Kara Swisher: This's a big deal. Tammy Haddad: Right, but the companies are, the big companies are so far ahead. They're well, they're just so big, so you're worried about that. David Adler: Every small company. Everybody's got an AI idea. Kara Swisher: Yeah. But there will be. That's [00:40:00] great. That's terrific. That's what's great about the US of A, I'm sorry. This is David Adler: Right. Kara Swisher: There'll be an AI of insurance and one will lead. There'll be an AI of this gene folding will be an AI of like dry cleaning. There'll be everything like you'll hit everything just the way apps did right? And there were too many... David Adler: So the a A-Bomb will not drop for a while Kara Swisher: I don't, yes, there'll be some companies that drop out. This is the way it is, you know over investment. That's a good thing It's not you know, and you know ,There's so much money sloshing around the world and crypto is kind of like been pushed off to the side I never thought that much of it. I kept arguing with the trip to people. I like I like blockchain. I get it and stuff But I was like, money is digital. Like, why are we digitizing money? Who's seen their money, ever? Do you ever see your money? Do you have a safe like Gringotts at Hogwarts? And it's there? No, no one sees their money. It doesn't exist. It does exist, but it doesn't exist. But I get why they did it. Right now it's a speculative asset. Bitcoin is. That's what it is. It's not for use for anything. So no, I think there's going to be a fallout. There's going to be an [00:41:00] overinvestment. But, like, you know, Sam's raising seven trillion dollars for a chip fab thing. He ha you need that much money. You need that NVIDIA's now the hottest stock ever, and worth it. Worth it. They were doing gaming chips, and now they were in the right place, so. John Heflin: John Heflin, Trustable AI, part of the AI wave. Um, and I mentioned this to you before the event, but, I I believe it was Chapter 10 where you talk about, you know, the homogeneity the homogeneousness of the tech bros, right? Kara Swisher: That's true, yep. John Heflin: And You know, thinking about this new wave of AI that's coming through, how do we avoid these mistakes, right? So like, you know, Gemini kind of overcorrected. Kara Swisher: Sort of. It'll, it'll sort of. John Heflin: It felt a little overcorrect. I mean, some of the images. Kara Swisher: Yes, but it was just a tempest in a tea. It was just perfect for the anti woke people. They never minded when every picture of a CEO was a white guy. They never, they never got indignant about that, but fine, whatever. John Heflin: But, but what do you think is the way we avoid these mistakes? with the new [00:42:00] generation of A. I. companies that are coming up, right? Like, what do you, what's your thought on how we avoid Kara Swisher: I don't think we do. I think there, this is a line I say in the book, which is, um, you know, they confuse merit, they say they're a meritocracy, but it's a "mirrortocracy." they like being with each other. They really do, you know, and, and they really do, you know, they, it's, you know, it's an expression there, start on third base and they think they hit a home run. They get all the money. They get all the contacts. Um, and so, you know, you either have to believe that only straight white men are the most smartest people on earth, or something's wrong, right? And I'm with the something's wrong. And I think you see it all over the place. It's just fu it's funding, it's cap tables. People aren't on the cap tables. There's not the money. Now there's some people like, uh, Olinda Gates, Lor Laurene Powell Jobs. There's a bunch of people, um, Bezos ex wife, who's doing, um, Mackenzie Scott, trying to seed a lot of things. She's more in the [00:43:00] philanthropy space, but she's investing too. So you start to see that. Um, but it's largely because people invest where they feel comfortable. I feel the reason it's unsafe, as I said in this book, so much is they just don't think about it. Like, what? Oh. I have one guy who finally got attacked on Twitter. And he called me, he's like, Oh my god, they're terrible to me! And I'm like, wow! Welcome to gay people, people of color, and women. This is our lives on that, you know, kind of thing. Um, and so, they were sort of like, that's not nice. I'm like, no, it's not nice. It's not nice. You know, I can't, I can't use, I used to, I was at Twitter since the very beginning, and I cannot put comments on. It's just, if I wanted to be called, see you next Tuesday, every day, I would do it. But I don't want to be, I don't use it that much anymore, so it's just, I just use it to strafe Elon, just to bother him. Um, John Heflin: So you're optimistic, is what you're saying. Kara Swisher: Um, no, I'm not. I'm not. I don't know what will change. I mean, Like, look, Sam Altman, he's gay. Okay, great. [00:44:00] Like, I was just talking to him. I was, he's like, what do you want to talk about? I'm like, let's talk about gay, let's talk about being gay. And he goes, that's a small dinner party. Because it's me and Tim Cook and him. And then the other two are Peter Thiel and Keith Raboine. We don't want to have dinner with them. So, that's it. It's just the three of us. You know, pretty much. Um, and, you know, but that's a different point of view. Right? He, of course, he's a a white man who's been privileged, so then he's got, both of them are, so there's that. So, I, I, in this case, diversity is an asset. And, and there's study after study, get away from the we should just do it for that. There's study after study after study. I would point to Mark Cuban's arguments on Twitter. He's like wading in there. He's talking about his companies and why he thinks diversity, equity and inclusion is important. And he's getting, he's fantastic. If you go back and read all his stuff, he says, here's why we do it. Here's why I didn't, and then I changed, and why my companies are better. If we have more people like that, talk about that. You don't, you have to stop arguing with these anti woke people, right? You just have to stop and say, here's the results. [00:45:00] Here's the results when we do this. Here's the product. It should be a selling point for a product, right? That it's safer, that it's, you know. I just think it's a selling point for everybody. And, you know, the famous example in the book is Mark and I arguing over anti Semitism, over, he, we'd started talking about Alex Jones as a parent. I was offended that he wasn't kicked off. Even though he broke the rules, and I kept arguing with him about that, and he shifted it to anti semitism. And he went on his free speech, whatever, which I don't think is particularly sophisticated. And I believe you can draw a straight, I don't blame him for anti semitism, let me be clear. He's not, it's not, he didn't start the fire. But it didn't help that they didn't kick off Holocaust deniers right away. Or, or limit them, or push them down, or something like that. And their commitment to What they think is free speech is commitment to dangerous speech. And they can't tell the difference. And so, you know, it took him, and then two years later he did just what I said. [00:46:00] Right? Two years of anti Semitic nonsense being, nonsense, toxic, toxic stuff being spread on that network was not a good thing. And we can't take it back. Because this stuff goes everywhere. It's like mold. It goes everywhere. Tammy Haddad: Alright, thank you so much for that question. So Kara, we want to give people time to get you to sign their, their book, right? But before we go, I have to say, you're such a fearless person. This book is truly a love story. I cried at the end. David Adler, did you cry? David cried too. Kara Swisher: No, I went for it. I went for the sentimental. Tammy Haddad: And I just want to say in front of all of these folks, how important you are to all of us, and to the industry, and it's great that you're back in Washington telling everyone what to do. Kara Swisher: No, they're not listening to me, Tammy. Tammy Haddad: They're not listening to you, but we are. Kara Swisher: Let me just say, I think this is, AI I think could be amazing for all of us. I think it really could. The gene folding, the cancer research, the climate change tech. You could think, this is, one of [00:47:00] the key parts of the book was when I talk about Star Wars versus Star Trek. And, uh, Star Wars is a very dark, dyspeptic, almost Holocaust like story. It really is. I've, I've interviewed George Lucas about it. He says it, that it's not, evil prevails all the time in that thing. Good people die in that thing constantly? Star Trek is a much more, uh, uh, open, uh, diverse look at the future. Like, that solutions can be had and it was unusual that I didn't I found it this interview with Steve that I'd forgotten about where he said I want Star Trek. Oh, I like Star Trek I don't I don't want anything but that and I think if we it's totally but I'm not being just ridiculously optimistic when you could see all if we shared among each other that it could be a lot better that very wealthy people shouldn't get everything like it's just ridiculous at this point and then they get to like You know, just of late. Like, why do we care what Elon Musk thinks about caesareans? I had one. Fuck you. Get, stop talking about it. Stop telling me [00:48:00] about big headed children. Like, get the, get the fuck off my lawn. Like, you know what I mean? Or, like, you know, Bill Ackman on diversity and inclusion. Just stick with hedge funds. I don't usually say stay in your lane, but in this case, get off this lane. Like, you have no idea what you're talking about. And, but he's rich, so everybody listens to him. You know, it's just exhausting that because you have money, you think you have expertise. And it's just not the case. The last thing I would leave with you is, guess who paid for the internet? You did. It's guess whose data fuels your data. Like, it's just, you know, honestly, this is not a favor they did for us. They rode on our rails and made all this money, and they, they back, they, they back things that are in their self interest. That's why it says, so it was capitalism after all, but it doesn't have to be capitalism that takes away from people and gives it to a small group of people. It just doesn't have, there's so many miracles here. Um, and that's why I'm, it's why it's a tech love story. I love the tech, but boy, am I tired of people [00:49:00] taking the juicy parts and leaving the shit for us. It's just that's enough of this. So that's what I would say. Tammy Haddad: That's fantastic. Thank you Kara so much and I have a special award for you. Kara Swisher: That's dangerous looking with I have toddlers. Tammy Haddad: Kara Swisher from the Washington AI Network, you are a Washington monument. Kara Swisher: Oh my gah. Tammy Haddad: Thank you for being with us. Kara Swisher: Thank you for listening to the Washington AI Network podcast. Be sure to subscribe and join the conversation. The Washington AI Network is a bipartisan forum bringing together the top leaders and industry experts to discuss the biggest opportunities and the greatest challenges around AI. The Washington AI Network podcast is produced and recorded by Haddad Media. Thanks for listening.