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Transcript for The importance of data | Recommendations for Change: a series about the IICSA final report - episode 2

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PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of

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PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

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SPEAKER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child

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SPEAKER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where

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SPEAKER: institutions failed to protect children in their

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SPEAKER: care.

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SPEAKER: The inquiry's final report, published in October

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SPEAKER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations

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SPEAKER: to address past failings and protect future

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SPEAKER: generations of children from abuse.

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SPEAKER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part

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SPEAKER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning examining

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SPEAKER: why these recommendations are needed, how

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SPEAKER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact

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SPEAKER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual

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SPEAKER: abuse.

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SPEAKER: Episode two: the Importance of

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SPEAKER: Data.

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PRODUCER: Gathering and analysing data plays a key role

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PRODUCER: in understanding the extent of child sexual

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PRODUCER: abuse and exploitation.

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PRODUCER: The IICSA final report suggests one of the

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PRODUCER: reasons that the true scale of child sexual

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PRODUCER: abuse in the UK is not fully understood is poor

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PRODUCER: data collection.

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PRODUCER: The report describes the available data as

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PRODUCER: presenting a, quote, "confused and

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PRODUCER: confusing picture".

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PRODUCER: There is "no consistent approach to the

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PRODUCER: recording of data, including by key statutory

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PRODUCER: agencies such as the police and local

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PRODUCER: authorities" And without this clear data,

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PRODUCER: it is hard to effectively prevent and respond

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PRODUCER: to abuse.

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PRODUCER: The final IICSA recommendations seek to remedy

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PRODUCER: these shortcomings by suggesting the creation

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PRODUCER: of a single core data set, and it's this

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PRODUCER: recommendation that we'll be exploring in more

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PRODUCER: detail in this podcast.

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PRODUCER: To begin, it's important to consider what the

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PRODUCER: existing data and evidence is telling us about

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PRODUCER: the scale of child sexual abuse in the UK.

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PRODUCER: I put this question to Lisa McCrindle,

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PRODUCER: Assistant Director for Policy, Communications

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PRODUCER: and Strategic Influence at the Centre of

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PRODUCER: Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, the CSA

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PRODUCER: Centre.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: The headline statement to remember is

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that far more children are sexually

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LISA MCCRINDLE: abused than we're currently identifying.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So we estimate from survey data — and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: it's a range of different robust survey

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LISA MCCRINDLE: data — that indicates to us that more

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LISA MCCRINDLE: than 1 in 10 children will be sexually

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LISA MCCRINDLE: abused by the age of 16.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: That percentage is much higher for girls

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LISA MCCRINDLE: than boys, so 15% of girls and 5% of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: boys. There is likely to be some

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LISA MCCRINDLE: underreporting within the boys there, but

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LISA MCCRINDLE: also likely to be overall more abuse

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LISA MCCRINDLE: of girls in that context. But, as a

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LISA MCCRINDLE: general, kind of, headline: more than 1

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LISA MCCRINDLE: in 10 children by the age of 16 would

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LISA MCCRINDLE: experience some form of sexual abuse.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So that's really important to remember.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: What's really important to remember is

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that the vast majority of those children,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: their harm won't be identified in

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LISA MCCRINDLE: childhood and they won't necessarily be

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LISA MCCRINDLE: able to tell anybody.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: We need to move away from this

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LISA MCCRINDLE: expectation that children will tell us

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LISA MCCRINDLE: and will be able to tell us — there are

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LISA MCCRINDLE: so many barriers that prevent them from

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LISA MCCRINDLE: doing that — and we as professionals

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LISA MCCRINDLE: across a whole range of sectors need to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: be more proactive in identifying our

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LISA MCCRINDLE: concerns and responding to them.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So what we do see from the data available

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LISA MCCRINDLE: to us is that pretty much every year

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LISA MCCRINDLE: around half a million children will be

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LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused in England and Wales.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So it's a huge number of children that

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LISA MCCRINDLE: are experiencing this harm each year.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And what we're identifying is a

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LISA MCCRINDLE: really small proportion; we refer to it

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LISA MCCRINDLE: as the tip of the iceberg in terms of the

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LISA MCCRINDLE: children that come to the attention of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: services.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Of that half a million children, around

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LISA MCCRINDLE: 2,700 children will end up

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LISA MCCRINDLE: on a child protection plan for sexual

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LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse in England and Wales.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: In England, about 50,000 children will be

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LISA MCCRINDLE: assessed as at risk of sexual abuse.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And then in England and Wales, about

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LISA MCCRINDLE: 100,000 children...

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LISA MCCRINDLE: well offences will be recorded that are

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LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse offences.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So really, across all the measures, we're

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LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying far less than that that is

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LISA MCCRINDLE: actually happening.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Although far more children are being

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LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused than we're identifying,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: we do know that sexual abuse is just as

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LISA MCCRINDLE: common as other forms of childhood abuse.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So the survey, again, survey data shows

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LISA MCCRINDLE: us that we have really similar levels of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: child abuse across emotional abuse,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: physical abuse and sexual abuse.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And yet in terms of identifying that and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: responding to it through plans and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments, sexual abuse is really,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: really low in comparison to that.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And we need to ask ourselves why is that?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: What we do know is it's not because

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LISA MCCRINDLE: there's less of it, it's because we're

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LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying less of it. And what are the

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LISA MCCRINDLE: barriers that are preventing

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LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals from doing that?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: In the last year's data, we did start to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: see a slight increase in the number of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments of children being at risk,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: for child sexual abuse. So perhaps we're

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LISA MCCRINDLE: seeing, I guess what we might see is kind

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LISA MCCRINDLE: of green shoots from all the efforts to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: continually talk about child sexual abuse

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LISA MCCRINDLE: and focus on child sexual abuse, starting

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LISA MCCRINDLE: to see that come through in more

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LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments. So there are indications

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that we can make that progress.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And what we see from other areas is that

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LISA MCCRINDLE: where professionals feel confident, where

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LISA MCCRINDLE: they have the training, where they

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LISA MCCRINDLE: recognise that their locality expects

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LISA MCCRINDLE: these numbers to go up and recognises

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that we should be finding more of these

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LISA MCCRINDLE: children, and responding to more sexual

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LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse, And where we

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LISA MCCRINDLE: know that there are services available to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: support those children and their families,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: we do see an increase in identification

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LISA MCCRINDLE: of concerns. So what we do know is that

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LISA MCCRINDLE: talking about this, supporting

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LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals, providing services, means

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that we are getting— we can get better at

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LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and responding to children

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that have been sexually abused.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: I think the other really key thing to say

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LISA MCCRINDLE: about what do we know about the scale of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse is it varies in terms

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LISA MCCRINDLE: of our response. So, our response varies

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LISA MCCRINDLE: massively across the country.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So, where you live really does matter

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LISA MCCRINDLE: in terms of whether your locality,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: whether that's children services or

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LISA MCCRINDLE: whether it's criminal justice, is likely

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LISA MCCRINDLE: to be identifying and responding to child

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LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse. So again, that consistency

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LISA MCCRINDLE: of experiences is really important, and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: what we need to look at as services is

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LISA MCCRINDLE: how do we get better consistency in

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LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and responding to child

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LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse.

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PRODUCER: You've highlighted there the level of insights

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PRODUCER: that we can already get from the data.

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PRODUCER: How can this data be used by professionals to

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PRODUCER: improve the response to child sexual abuse?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: When we're talking about this to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: strategic leaders in localities, to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: managers and to frontline service

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LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals, is what this data should

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LISA MCCRINDLE: help us to do is to ask questions of our

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LISA MCCRINDLE: services. It should help us to ask

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LISA MCCRINDLE: questions around, well, would we expect

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LISA MCCRINDLE: this number to be higher or lower?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Has this number increased or decreased?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And why do we think that has happened?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Did we do something or stop doing

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LISA MCCRINDLE: something? So have we got better at our

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LISA MCCRINDLE: training and are we seeing that result in

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LISA MCCRINDLE: better identification?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Have we stopped delivering a service and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that's meant that we're not in contact

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LISA MCCRINDLE: with particular groups of children?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Are we seeing some children identified

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LISA MCCRINDLE: more than other children?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And therefore, do we need to look at what

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LISA MCCRINDLE: our training is telling us about

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LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and meeting the needs of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: particular groups of children?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So really, I think the data is so

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LISA MCCRINDLE: important because it gives us a sense of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: how well are we identifying and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: responding to children that have been

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LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused. But then it should be

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LISA MCCRINDLE: pushing us to ask more questions.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So what do we and don't we know as a

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LISA MCCRINDLE: result of this data and where could we

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LISA MCCRINDLE: find more information out?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: At the CSA Centre we publish every year a

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LISA MCCRINDLE: trends in data update. So, we look at the

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LISA MCCRINDLE: latest data and what those trends are

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LISA MCCRINDLE: telling us. That's the available public

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LISA MCCRINDLE: data that's available nationally.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Local areas and local agencies can dig

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LISA MCCRINDLE: into their own data and do much more

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LISA MCCRINDLE: analysis and and really unpick.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: They could do a data audit and they could

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LISA MCCRINDLE: do a snapshot and pull out some files and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: really start to unpick and understand

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LISA MCCRINDLE: their data. So while it might sound a

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LISA MCCRINDLE: little dry, it's incredibly important to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: helping us understand the experience of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: victims and survivors. Survey data tells

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LISA MCCRINDLE: us about who is being harmed, what

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LISA MCCRINDLE: context is that harm happening in,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: at what age are children being harmed and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: whether they had a response or not to

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LISA MCCRINDLE: that? But then, service response data

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LISA MCCRINDLE: is telling us about how are we actively

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LISA MCCRINDLE: picking up and responding to this.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: And so I think data is incredibly

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LISA MCCRINDLE: important in helping us understand and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: respond to child sexual abuse and it

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LISA MCCRINDLE: should be driving us to ask questions and

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LISA MCCRINDLE: make better decisions.

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PRODUCER: And thinking about services for victims and

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PRODUCER: survivors. The IICSA report says "public

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PRODUCER: agencies rely on accurate and detailed data

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PRODUCER: to make the best strategic and operational

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PRODUCER: responses for the protection of children." What

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PRODUCER: does the current landscape of support services

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PRODUCER: look like in the UK, and how can we use data

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PRODUCER: to improve the availability of these services?

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LISA MCCRINDLE: The response that we provide to child

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LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse, it doesn't fall within one

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LISA MCCRINDLE: particular service's responsibility or

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LISA MCCRINDLE: one particular agency.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: It's not just the responsibility of

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LISA MCCRINDLE: criminal justice. It's not just the

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LISA MCCRINDLE: responsibility of social work or health.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: Victims of child sexual abuse need help

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LISA MCCRINDLE: from a whole range of different places,

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LISA MCCRINDLE: and that help will change that they need.

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LISA MCCRINDLE: So, the support that victims and

00:09:08,660 → 00:09:10,669

LISA MCCRINDLE: survivors might need, and their families

00:09:10,670 → 00:09:12,769

LISA MCCRINDLE: might need, if they've been sexually

00:09:12,770 → 00:09:15,019

LISA MCCRINDLE: abused will be dependent on what's going

00:09:15,020 → 00:09:17,059

LISA MCCRINDLE: on for them at the time, how old are

00:09:17,060 → 00:09:19,289

LISA MCCRINDLE: they, what the arrangements are around,

00:09:19,290 → 00:09:20,569

LISA MCCRINDLE: you know, if they're children, if they're being

00:09:20,570 → 00:09:22,729

LISA MCCRINDLE: removed from the family or if they're

00:09:22,730 → 00:09:24,199

LISA MCCRINDLE: able to stay with family members.

00:09:24,200 → 00:09:26,569

LISA MCCRINDLE: But what impact is all of this happening?

00:09:26,570 → 00:09:28,099

LISA MCCRINDLE: Are they going through criminal justice

00:09:28,100 → 00:09:30,019

LISA MCCRINDLE: processes that will require a different

00:09:30,020 → 00:09:32,989

LISA MCCRINDLE: support service to maybe if they,

00:09:32,990 → 00:09:35,959

LISA MCCRINDLE: you know, are perhaps moving forward

00:09:35,960 → 00:09:37,849

LISA MCCRINDLE: and getting older and maybe experiencing

00:09:37,850 → 00:09:40,609

LISA MCCRINDLE: adolescence or their first relationships

00:09:40,610 → 00:09:42,529

LISA MCCRINDLE: or moving into adulthood, perhaps having

00:09:42,530 → 00:09:44,689

LISA MCCRINDLE: their first personal relationships or

00:09:44,690 → 00:09:46,519

LISA MCCRINDLE: serious relationships, maybe even going

00:09:46,520 → 00:09:48,049

LISA MCCRINDLE: on to have their own children.

00:09:48,050 → 00:09:49,369

LISA MCCRINDLE: All of these things will present

00:09:49,370 → 00:09:51,349

LISA MCCRINDLE: different needs at different times during

00:09:51,350 → 00:09:53,839

LISA MCCRINDLE: the lifetime of somebody that has

00:09:53,840 → 00:09:56,449

LISA MCCRINDLE: experienced and been sexually abused.

00:09:56,450 → 00:09:57,919

LISA MCCRINDLE: It's really important that we understand

00:09:57,920 → 00:10:00,289

LISA MCCRINDLE: that services aren't a single thing.

00:10:00,290 → 00:10:02,179

LISA MCCRINDLE: There isn't one service that one agency

00:10:02,180 → 00:10:04,369

LISA MCCRINDLE: can commission that is going to solve the

00:10:04,370 → 00:10:07,609

LISA MCCRINDLE: response that victims and survivors need.

00:10:07,610 → 00:10:08,929

LISA MCCRINDLE: So I think that's a really important

00:10:08,930 → 00:10:10,459

LISA MCCRINDLE: thing for us to understand: that services

00:10:10,460 → 00:10:12,229

LISA MCCRINDLE: aren't homogenous, and our need for

00:10:12,230 → 00:10:14,869

LISA MCCRINDLE: services will vary and differ over a

00:10:14,870 → 00:10:17,239

LISA MCCRINDLE: victim and survivors' lifetime.

00:10:17,240 → 00:10:18,799

LISA MCCRINDLE: In terms of the current landscape, what's

00:10:18,800 → 00:10:21,079

LISA MCCRINDLE: been really difficult is that all these

00:10:21,080 → 00:10:22,669

LISA MCCRINDLE: services will need to be delivered by

00:10:22,670 → 00:10:25,249

LISA MCCRINDLE: different agencies — so criminal justice

00:10:25,250 → 00:10:27,739

LISA MCCRINDLE: agencies might fund and commission

00:10:27,740 → 00:10:30,589

LISA MCCRINDLE: independent, sexual violence advisors

00:10:30,590 → 00:10:32,689

LISA MCCRINDLE: or victim support services for criminal

00:10:32,690 → 00:10:35,179

LISA MCCRINDLE: justice processes. We also need really

00:10:35,180 → 00:10:36,625

LISA MCCRINDLE: good mental health support for children

00:10:36,626 → 00:10:37,999

LISA MCCRINDLE: and that would be commissioned by the

00:10:38,000 → 00:10:40,549

LISA MCCRINDLE: health teams. And we also need social

00:10:40,550 → 00:10:42,529

LISA MCCRINDLE: workers that are trained and responsive

00:10:42,530 → 00:10:44,629

LISA MCCRINDLE: and understand the different context of

00:10:44,630 → 00:10:46,069

LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse.

00:10:46,070 → 00:10:47,959

LISA MCCRINDLE: So all of these different services come

00:10:47,960 → 00:10:49,339

LISA MCCRINDLE: from different places. So it's really

00:10:49,340 → 00:10:50,929

LISA MCCRINDLE: difficult for us to look at, well, where

00:10:50,930 → 00:10:53,479

LISA MCCRINDLE: all these services and what's available?

00:10:53,480 → 00:10:54,829

LISA MCCRINDLE: And obviously all of those are

00:10:54,830 → 00:10:56,359

LISA MCCRINDLE: commissioned differently across the

00:10:56,360 → 00:10:58,279

LISA MCCRINDLE: country. That sounds like you're letting

00:10:58,280 → 00:10:59,549

LISA MCCRINDLE: it off and it's just really difficult and

00:10:59,550 → 00:11:01,589

LISA MCCRINDLE: hard to do, but, that doesn't mean that

00:11:01,590 → 00:11:02,939

LISA MCCRINDLE: that needs to be the case. And I think there

00:11:02,940 → 00:11:04,799

LISA MCCRINDLE: are organisations and there are

00:11:04,800 → 00:11:06,869

LISA MCCRINDLE: individuals who have responsibility for

00:11:06,870 → 00:11:08,399

LISA MCCRINDLE: making sure that these services are

00:11:08,400 → 00:11:10,433

LISA MCCRINDLE: available and what we really need to see

00:11:10,434 → 00:11:13,649

LISA MCCRINDLE: — and there are opportunities to do this

00:11:13,650 → 00:11:16,379

LISA MCCRINDLE: in upcoming legislation — is how do we

00:11:16,380 → 00:11:19,079

LISA MCCRINDLE: build in those expectations and duties to

00:11:19,080 → 00:11:20,849

LISA MCCRINDLE: deliver services and make sure that there

00:11:20,850 → 00:11:23,129

LISA MCCRINDLE: is the breadth of service available, but

00:11:23,130 → 00:11:24,779

LISA MCCRINDLE: also, how do we make sure that we hold

00:11:24,780 → 00:11:26,729

LISA MCCRINDLE: people to account on those duties?

00:11:26,730 → 00:11:29,159

LISA MCCRINDLE: So there are key strategic leaders and

00:11:29,160 → 00:11:30,719

LISA MCCRINDLE: strategic organisations that have

00:11:30,720 → 00:11:32,189

LISA MCCRINDLE: responsibility for commissioning those

00:11:32,190 → 00:11:34,619

LISA MCCRINDLE: core services, whether that's through

00:11:34,620 → 00:11:36,569

LISA MCCRINDLE: integrated care boards or through police

00:11:36,570 → 00:11:37,889

LISA MCCRINDLE: and crime commissioners.

00:11:37,890 → 00:11:39,839

LISA MCCRINDLE: But how are we setting expectations that

00:11:39,840 → 00:11:42,389

LISA MCCRINDLE: a locality will ensure there is a breadth

00:11:42,390 → 00:11:43,949

LISA MCCRINDLE: of services that meets the needs of

00:11:43,950 → 00:11:45,959

LISA MCCRINDLE: victims and survivors in their locality,

00:11:45,960 → 00:11:47,339

LISA MCCRINDLE: and that those services are being

00:11:47,340 → 00:11:49,289

LISA MCCRINDLE: delivered and are accessible to those

00:11:49,290 → 00:11:50,759

LISA MCCRINDLE: children and their families.

00:11:50,760 → 00:11:53,219

LISA MCCRINDLE: So there's key bits to that — it's a big

00:11:53,220 → 00:11:54,659

LISA MCCRINDLE: question really — like what are the

00:11:54,660 → 00:11:56,069

LISA MCCRINDLE: services we need? Well, actually they're

00:11:56,070 → 00:11:57,419

LISA MCCRINDLE: wide and varied.

00:11:57,420 → 00:11:59,349

LISA MCCRINDLE: They need to meet the needs of children, they

00:11:59,350 → 00:12:00,629

LISA MCCRINDLE: need to meet the needs of adults, and

00:12:00,630 → 00:12:02,009

LISA MCCRINDLE: they need to meet the needs of the families

00:12:02,010 → 00:12:03,569

LISA MCCRINDLE: of children as well, because we know that

00:12:03,570 → 00:12:05,189

LISA MCCRINDLE: supporting families is one of the key

00:12:05,190 → 00:12:07,109

LISA MCCRINDLE: things we can do to best support children

00:12:07,110 → 00:12:08,789

LISA MCCRINDLE: that have been sexually abused.

00:12:08,790 → 00:12:10,379

LISA MCCRINDLE: But then we need to make sure those services

00:12:10,380 → 00:12:12,269

LISA MCCRINDLE: are there and we need to make sure that

00:12:12,270 → 00:12:13,859

LISA MCCRINDLE: there is accountability on delivering

00:12:13,860 → 00:12:15,209

LISA MCCRINDLE: those services.

00:12:15,210 → 00:12:17,189

LISA MCCRINDLE: So, more broadly, thinking about the

00:12:17,190 → 00:12:18,839

LISA MCCRINDLE: current landscape, some work was done a

00:12:18,840 → 00:12:20,639

LISA MCCRINDLE: number of years ago to try and map what

00:12:20,640 → 00:12:23,399

LISA MCCRINDLE: the current landscape of services was.

00:12:23,400 → 00:12:25,439

LISA MCCRINDLE: Recently, the CSA Centre has been

00:12:25,440 → 00:12:27,509

LISA MCCRINDLE: undertaking an update of that work, so

00:12:27,510 → 00:12:29,339

LISA MCCRINDLE: we've been working to to map what we do

00:12:29,340 → 00:12:31,919

LISA MCCRINDLE: know about services. And in coming months

00:12:31,920 → 00:12:33,299

LISA MCCRINDLE: we'll be publishing that work, which I

00:12:33,300 → 00:12:35,039

LISA MCCRINDLE: think will be incredibly valuable,

00:12:35,040 → 00:12:36,749

LISA MCCRINDLE: valuable to us in terms of what do we

00:12:36,750 → 00:12:38,849

LISA MCCRINDLE: know about the current service provision,

00:12:38,850 → 00:12:40,679

LISA MCCRINDLE: be really valuable to commissioners in

00:12:40,680 → 00:12:43,049

LISA MCCRINDLE: terms of understanding where there is

00:12:43,050 → 00:12:45,029

LISA MCCRINDLE: maybe more service offer and where there

00:12:45,030 → 00:12:47,099

LISA MCCRINDLE: is less service offer, what types of

00:12:47,100 → 00:12:48,599

LISA MCCRINDLE: services are we delivering more of in

00:12:48,600 → 00:12:50,219

LISA MCCRINDLE: which we're delivering less of?

00:12:50,220 → 00:12:52,859

PRODUCER: And that piece of research is available on the

00:12:52,860 → 00:12:55,499

PRODUCER: CSA Centre's website, and we'll put a link in

00:12:55,500 → 00:12:57,059

PRODUCER: the podcast show notes.

00:12:58,230 → 00:13:00,539

PRODUCER: Let's turn our attention now to the data

00:13:00,540 → 00:13:03,239

PRODUCER: recommendation proposed by IICSA.

00:13:03,240 → 00:13:05,879

PRODUCER: Recommendation one of the IICSA final report

00:13:05,880 → 00:13:08,879

PRODUCER: proposes the creation of a single core data set

00:13:08,880 → 00:13:11,729

PRODUCER: covering both England and Wales to improve

00:13:11,730 → 00:13:14,249

PRODUCER: data being collected by children's social care

00:13:14,250 → 00:13:17,219

PRODUCER: and criminal justice agencies concerning child

00:13:17,220 → 00:13:20,459

PRODUCER: sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation.

00:13:20,460 → 00:13:23,459

PRODUCER: The recommendation suggests that these agencies

00:13:23,460 → 00:13:26,399

PRODUCER: produce consistent and compatible data, which

00:13:26,400 → 00:13:28,829

PRODUCER: includes the characteristics of victims and

00:13:28,830 → 00:13:31,919

PRODUCER: alleged abusers such as age, sex and

00:13:31,920 → 00:13:34,859

PRODUCER: ethnicity, and factors that make victims

00:13:34,860 → 00:13:37,949

PRODUCER: more vulnerable to abuse or exploitation.

00:13:37,950 → 00:13:40,409

PRODUCER: It should also say where the child sexual abuse

00:13:40,410 → 00:13:43,229

PRODUCER: and exploitation happened and the context in

00:13:43,230 → 00:13:44,699

PRODUCER: which it happened.

00:13:44,700 → 00:13:47,369

PRODUCER: To learn more about how IICSA's recommendation

00:13:47,370 → 00:13:49,799

PRODUCER: would improve public agencies' approach to data

00:13:49,800 → 00:13:52,829

PRODUCER: collection, I spoke to Kelly Agudelo.

00:13:52,830 → 00:13:54,299

KELLY AGUDELO: Hello, I'm Kelly Agudelo.

00:13:54,300 → 00:13:56,219

KELLY AGUDELO: I am Head of Analysis within the

00:13:56,220 → 00:13:57,969

KELLY AGUDELO: Vulnerability Knowledge Practice Program,

00:13:57,970 → 00:13:58,970

KELLY AGUDELO: VKPP.

00:13:59,970 → 00:14:02,994

KELLY AGUDELO: The VKPP are a body or organisation which

00:14:04,500 → 00:14:06,359

KELLY AGUDELO: tries to improve the policing response of

00:14:06,360 → 00:14:09,119

KELLY AGUDELO: vulnerability. We also have responsibility

00:14:09,120 → 00:14:11,909

KELLY AGUDELO: for national analysis of child sexual

00:14:11,910 → 00:14:13,499

KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation.

00:14:13,500 → 00:14:16,049

PRODUCER: I began by asking Kelly how data collection

00:14:16,050 → 00:14:18,809

PRODUCER: currently works within the police force.

00:14:18,810 → 00:14:21,779

KELLY AGUDELO: So since 2015, policing

00:14:21,780 → 00:14:24,719

KELLY AGUDELO: has had a network of regional child sexual

00:14:24,720 → 00:14:27,719

KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation analysts, and

00:14:27,720 → 00:14:30,359

KELLY AGUDELO: this comprises of one analyst per policing

00:14:30,360 → 00:14:33,059

KELLY AGUDELO: region and we have ten policing regions

00:14:33,060 → 00:14:35,219

KELLY AGUDELO: across England and Wales.

00:14:35,220 → 00:14:38,609

KELLY AGUDELO: And the role of that network is to provide

00:14:38,610 → 00:14:40,409

KELLY AGUDELO: the analysis on child sexual abuse and

00:14:40,410 → 00:14:42,629

KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation on a regional level, which

00:14:42,630 → 00:14:44,669

KELLY AGUDELO: then feeds into a national picture so that

00:14:44,670 → 00:14:46,649

KELLY AGUDELO: we can understand actually what is going

00:14:46,650 → 00:14:49,619

KELLY AGUDELO: on within CSA/E across England

00:14:49,620 → 00:14:51,599

KELLY AGUDELO: and Wales. So that's actually been in

00:14:51,600 → 00:14:53,130

KELLY AGUDELO: existence for eight years now.

00:14:54,240 → 00:14:57,539

KELLY AGUDELO: Over the past few years we've been working

00:14:57,540 → 00:15:00,569

KELLY AGUDELO: towards achieving that single core data

00:15:00,570 → 00:15:03,089

KELLY AGUDELO: set or what we call the 'totality of

00:15:03,090 → 00:15:05,699

KELLY AGUDELO: police recorded child sexual abuse and

00:15:05,700 → 00:15:07,650

KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation crimes'.

00:15:08,690 → 00:15:12,019

KELLY AGUDELO: We produce on a quarterly basis, an

00:15:12,020 → 00:15:14,899

KELLY AGUDELO: analytical document looking at the scale

00:15:14,900 → 00:15:17,779

KELLY AGUDELO: and nature of police recorded child

00:15:17,780 → 00:15:20,269

KELLY AGUDELO: sexual abuse and exploitation across

00:15:20,270 → 00:15:22,039

KELLY AGUDELO: England and Wales.

00:15:22,040 → 00:15:24,709

KELLY AGUDELO: And that allows us to identify, as I say,

00:15:24,710 → 00:15:26,779

KELLY AGUDELO: the scale of child sexual abuse that's

00:15:26,780 → 00:15:29,629

KELLY AGUDELO: being reported and the nature of it.

00:15:29,630 → 00:15:32,659

KELLY AGUDELO: So breaking things down, like, the type

00:15:32,660 → 00:15:35,569

KELLY AGUDELO: of child sexual abuse and exploitation,

00:15:35,570 → 00:15:38,029

KELLY AGUDELO: who our victim survivors are, who the

00:15:38,030 → 00:15:41,569

KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators are, and also

00:15:41,570 → 00:15:44,569

KELLY AGUDELO: looking at things like how recent the

00:15:44,570 → 00:15:47,269

KELLY AGUDELO: offending has taken place and how quickly

00:15:47,270 → 00:15:49,849

KELLY AGUDELO: victims are to report or not so how recent

00:15:49,850 → 00:15:53,059

KELLY AGUDELO: the offending is, and breaking down

00:15:53,060 → 00:15:54,619

KELLY AGUDELO: the demographics of victims and

00:15:54,620 → 00:15:57,349

KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators across different types of

00:15:57,350 → 00:15:58,909

KELLY AGUDELO: child sexual abuse and exploitation

00:15:58,910 → 00:16:00,350

KELLY AGUDELO: because it does differ slightly.

00:16:01,520 → 00:16:03,919

KELLY AGUDELO: So that is the kind of data that we

00:16:03,920 → 00:16:05,269

KELLY AGUDELO: collect.

00:16:05,270 → 00:16:08,029

PRODUCER: How might we be able to use that data to

00:16:08,030 → 00:16:09,859

PRODUCER: respond to CSA?

00:16:09,860 → 00:16:12,469

KELLY AGUDELO: Data is a really important and valuable

00:16:12,470 → 00:16:14,749

KELLY AGUDELO: asset in terms of prevention and

00:16:14,750 → 00:16:17,449

KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement, and I think it's really

00:16:17,450 → 00:16:19,729

KELLY AGUDELO: important for all statutory organisations,

00:16:19,730 → 00:16:21,799

KELLY AGUDELO: and also non-statutory organisations, to

00:16:21,800 → 00:16:23,389

KELLY AGUDELO: understand the value of the information

00:16:23,390 → 00:16:25,099

KELLY AGUDELO: that they may hold when, actually, when

00:16:25,100 → 00:16:26,779

KELLY AGUDELO: you put it all together, it gives us a

00:16:26,780 → 00:16:29,779

KELLY AGUDELO: really good picture of what the problem

00:16:29,780 → 00:16:31,969

KELLY AGUDELO: is. And this is the case for all types of

00:16:31,970 → 00:16:36,289

KELLY AGUDELO: crime, but never more so than for CSA.

00:16:36,290 → 00:16:38,299

KELLY AGUDELO: And we can use that data as analysts to

00:16:38,300 → 00:16:41,179

KELLY AGUDELO: understand actually where is offending

00:16:41,180 → 00:16:43,489

KELLY AGUDELO: taking place that's potentially being

00:16:43,490 → 00:16:46,039

KELLY AGUDELO: reported or if we get information from

00:16:46,040 → 00:16:47,809

KELLY AGUDELO: partners that doesn't relate to a crime

00:16:47,810 → 00:16:50,719

KELLY AGUDELO: where there is indication that there

00:16:50,720 → 00:16:52,129

KELLY AGUDELO: might be offending taking place in a

00:16:52,130 → 00:16:55,549

KELLY AGUDELO: particular location, which gives policing

00:16:55,550 → 00:16:57,529

KELLY AGUDELO: the opportunity to maybe target that

00:16:57,530 → 00:16:59,989

KELLY AGUDELO: location and prevent offending.

00:16:59,990 → 00:17:02,479

KELLY AGUDELO: We ask for information around who our

00:17:02,480 → 00:17:04,399

KELLY AGUDELO: victim and survivors are to identify

00:17:04,400 → 00:17:06,769

KELLY AGUDELO: repeat victims, or potentially identify

00:17:06,770 → 00:17:08,689

KELLY AGUDELO: victims who may be at risk of child sexual

00:17:08,690 → 00:17:10,789

KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation.

00:17:10,790 → 00:17:13,009

KELLY AGUDELO: We also look at perpetrator information to

00:17:13,010 → 00:17:14,899

KELLY AGUDELO: understand, actually, do we have

00:17:14,900 → 00:17:18,529

KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators that are cropping up across

00:17:18,530 → 00:17:21,409

KELLY AGUDELO: multiple locations,

00:17:21,410 → 00:17:23,719

KELLY AGUDELO: across multiple victims, so who are quite

00:17:23,720 → 00:17:25,399

KELLY AGUDELO: predatory in nature?

00:17:25,400 → 00:17:27,229

KELLY AGUDELO: We use perpetrator information to

00:17:27,230 → 00:17:30,469

KELLY AGUDELO: understand where we might have

00:17:30,470 → 00:17:33,259

KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement opportunities, or

00:17:33,260 → 00:17:34,909

KELLY AGUDELO: opportunities where we can be a bit more

00:17:34,910 → 00:17:36,709

KELLY AGUDELO: proactive around disrupting those

00:17:36,710 → 00:17:38,629

KELLY AGUDELO: offenders from a policing perspective, and

00:17:38,630 → 00:17:40,459

KELLY AGUDELO: therefore trying to remove the harm that

00:17:40,460 → 00:17:42,949

KELLY AGUDELO: they pose to our children.

00:17:42,950 → 00:17:46,189

KELLY AGUDELO: We also look at information relating

00:17:46,190 → 00:17:48,499

KELLY AGUDELO: to the kinds of child sexual abuse that is

00:17:48,500 → 00:17:50,959

KELLY AGUDELO: happening. So, for example, breaking it

00:17:50,960 → 00:17:53,839

KELLY AGUDELO: down to child-on-child or familial, and so

00:17:53,840 → 00:17:55,759

KELLY AGUDELO: on, to understand, actually, is that

00:17:55,760 → 00:17:57,289

KELLY AGUDELO: threat picture changing?

00:17:57,290 → 00:17:58,639

KELLY AGUDELO: What are we seeing more of?

00:17:58,640 → 00:18:01,009

KELLY AGUDELO: Do we need to focus our activity to kind

00:18:01,010 → 00:18:03,079

KELLY AGUDELO: of reflect where those trends are

00:18:03,080 → 00:18:06,079

KELLY AGUDELO: happening? So if we know, for example —

00:18:06,080 → 00:18:08,029

KELLY AGUDELO: and this is just an example — that,

00:18:09,380 → 00:18:12,169

KELLY AGUDELO: child sexual abuse is mostly happening

00:18:12,170 → 00:18:15,439

KELLY AGUDELO: within the child-on-child context,

00:18:15,440 → 00:18:17,809

KELLY AGUDELO: actually, that's a very different

00:18:17,810 → 00:18:20,539

KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement or preventative tactic as

00:18:20,540 → 00:18:23,599

KELLY AGUDELO: opposed to if, for example, you have

00:18:23,600 → 00:18:25,880

KELLY AGUDELO: adult-on-child sexual offending.

00:18:27,260 → 00:18:28,909

KELLY AGUDELO: And from a different perspective, in terms

00:18:28,910 → 00:18:31,279

KELLY AGUDELO: of that work with partners as well, it's

00:18:31,280 → 00:18:32,779

KELLY AGUDELO: really important to use the data to

00:18:32,780 → 00:18:34,549

KELLY AGUDELO: understand, actually, are there any

00:18:34,550 → 00:18:36,589

KELLY AGUDELO: opportunities to develop bespoke

00:18:36,590 → 00:18:39,469

KELLY AGUDELO: prevention or support services which

00:18:39,470 → 00:18:41,989

KELLY AGUDELO: reflect what's going on in the communities

00:18:41,990 → 00:18:44,209

KELLY AGUDELO: locally? So from that local level as well,

00:18:44,210 → 00:18:45,889

KELLY AGUDELO: it's really important to collect the data

00:18:45,890 → 00:18:47,719

KELLY AGUDELO: and to do the analysis on the data — that

00:18:47,720 → 00:18:49,489

KELLY AGUDELO: should be driving a lot of the policing

00:18:49,490 → 00:18:50,869

KELLY AGUDELO: activity.

00:18:50,870 → 00:18:53,839

KELLY AGUDELO: So in terms of the importance of

00:18:53,840 → 00:18:57,529

KELLY AGUDELO: data capture, the data should be

00:18:57,530 → 00:18:59,719

KELLY AGUDELO: giving us — across statutory

00:18:59,720 → 00:19:02,119

KELLY AGUDELO: organisations, but specifically for me,

00:19:02,120 → 00:19:04,789

KELLY AGUDELO: from a policing perspective — that is the

00:19:04,790 → 00:19:06,739

KELLY AGUDELO: foundation on which we understand a

00:19:06,740 → 00:19:08,719

KELLY AGUDELO: problem and what is going on.

00:19:08,720 → 00:19:11,629

KELLY AGUDELO: And if we don't have the entirety

00:19:11,630 → 00:19:13,879

KELLY AGUDELO: of a dataset, if we've got patches in our

00:19:13,880 → 00:19:16,729

KELLY AGUDELO: data, we are missing parts of that

00:19:16,730 → 00:19:19,579

KELLY AGUDELO: picture and we can't therefore ensure

00:19:19,580 → 00:19:21,199

KELLY AGUDELO: that our response collectively as

00:19:21,200 → 00:19:24,169

KELLY AGUDELO: statutory organisations reflects what's

00:19:24,170 → 00:19:27,169

KELLY AGUDELO: seen in that picture accurately.

00:19:27,170 → 00:19:29,849

KELLY AGUDELO: So it has real consequences in terms of us

00:19:29,850 → 00:19:32,239

KELLY AGUDELO: being able to develop an accurate response

00:19:32,240 → 00:19:33,919

KELLY AGUDELO: to prevent child sexual abuse and

00:19:33,920 → 00:19:36,289

KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation. So it's really important in

00:19:36,290 → 00:19:38,119

KELLY AGUDELO: that respect as well.

00:19:38,120 → 00:19:40,369

PRODUCER: So that's why the IICSA recommendation of the

00:19:40,370 → 00:19:42,889

PRODUCER: single core dataset needs to be implemented:

00:19:42,890 → 00:19:45,069

PRODUCER: because it will ensure that picture is complete

00:19:45,070 → 00:19:47,989

PRODUCER: and strategic responses to CSA are

00:19:47,990 → 00:19:50,329

PRODUCER: being based on accurate evidence.

00:19:50,330 → 00:19:52,879

PRODUCER: Kelly, how do we make sure that data being

00:19:52,880 → 00:19:54,769

PRODUCER: gathered is accurate?

00:19:54,770 → 00:19:56,333

KELLY AGUDELO: This is a long term issue, unfortunately,

00:19:57,440 → 00:19:59,239

KELLY AGUDELO: with policing data, and I'm sure it's the

00:19:59,240 → 00:20:01,609

KELLY AGUDELO: same for other statutory organisations as

00:20:01,610 → 00:20:04,069

KELLY AGUDELO: well. So we know that we've got aspects of

00:20:04,070 → 00:20:06,769

KELLY AGUDELO: data which are much more challenging.

00:20:06,770 → 00:20:08,099

KELLY AGUDELO: I should have said at the beginning that

00:20:08,100 → 00:20:10,529

KELLY AGUDELO: we are due to have an annual, publicly

00:20:10,530 → 00:20:12,899

KELLY AGUDELO: available report on the scale and nature

00:20:12,900 → 00:20:14,399

KELLY AGUDELO: of child sexual abuse, which is due to

00:20:14,400 → 00:20:16,199

KELLY AGUDELO: come out this autumn, so that will be

00:20:16,200 → 00:20:17,639

KELLY AGUDELO: publicly available.

00:20:17,640 → 00:20:18,989

KELLY AGUDELO: There will be information within that

00:20:18,990 → 00:20:21,239

KELLY AGUDELO: report which details, actually, where we

00:20:21,240 → 00:20:23,159

KELLY AGUDELO: have patches in our data.

00:20:23,160 → 00:20:24,779

KELLY AGUDELO: But, as an example, we know we've got

00:20:24,780 → 00:20:27,839

KELLY AGUDELO: challenges in our data in relation to

00:20:27,840 → 00:20:29,669

KELLY AGUDELO: — and this is referenced in the report as

00:20:29,670 → 00:20:32,579

KELLY AGUDELO: well — the recording of gender, ethnicity

00:20:32,580 → 00:20:35,099

KELLY AGUDELO: and age. So actually us being able to

00:20:35,100 → 00:20:37,246

KELLY AGUDELO: comment on actually who are the victims

00:20:37,247 → 00:20:40,319

KELLY AGUDELO: and survivors who are potentially

00:20:40,320 → 00:20:43,379

KELLY AGUDELO: most at risk, for example, it makes

00:20:43,380 → 00:20:45,539

KELLY AGUDELO: it really hard to to comment with a degree

00:20:45,540 → 00:20:47,069

KELLY AGUDELO: of accuracy.

00:20:47,070 → 00:20:49,199

KELLY AGUDELO: In terms of perpetrators, we also have

00:20:49,200 → 00:20:51,599

KELLY AGUDELO: challenges with our data in relation to

00:20:51,600 → 00:20:54,389

KELLY AGUDELO: ethnicity, gender and age.

00:20:54,390 → 00:20:57,539

KELLY AGUDELO: So being able to accurately understand

00:20:57,540 → 00:21:00,989

KELLY AGUDELO: who perpetrators are is a challenge

00:21:00,990 → 00:21:04,019

KELLY AGUDELO: for us. We are working to

00:21:04,020 → 00:21:06,029

KELLY AGUDELO: improve our data quality, so there is lots

00:21:06,030 → 00:21:08,189

KELLY AGUDELO: of work going on within policing to make

00:21:08,190 → 00:21:10,979

KELLY AGUDELO: sure that police officers, when they are

00:21:10,980 → 00:21:12,929

KELLY AGUDELO: capturing that information, that they are

00:21:12,930 → 00:21:15,419

KELLY AGUDELO: able to do that with a degree of accuracy.

00:21:15,420 → 00:21:17,819

KELLY AGUDELO: And that includes making sure that our

00:21:17,820 → 00:21:20,010

KELLY AGUDELO: crime recording systems allow this.

00:21:21,270 → 00:21:22,739

KELLY AGUDELO: We also understand that there are

00:21:22,740 → 00:21:24,749

KELLY AGUDELO: challenges sometimes for the officers

00:21:24,750 → 00:21:27,119

KELLY AGUDELO: taking report, where they may not want to

00:21:27,120 → 00:21:29,129

KELLY AGUDELO: retraumatise the victim, or actually the

00:21:29,130 → 00:21:31,199

KELLY AGUDELO: focus is not actually on obtaining

00:21:31,200 → 00:21:32,999

KELLY AGUDELO: particular details for the victim at that

00:21:33,000 → 00:21:35,639

KELLY AGUDELO: point, but it's around ensuring that they

00:21:35,640 → 00:21:37,049

KELLY AGUDELO: get them to a place of safety and

00:21:37,050 → 00:21:38,879

KELLY AGUDELO: safeguarding that victim.

00:21:38,880 → 00:21:40,619

KELLY AGUDELO: So there are challenges in that respect in

00:21:40,620 → 00:21:43,229

KELLY AGUDELO: terms of the priorities for the officer

00:21:43,230 → 00:21:46,079

KELLY AGUDELO: taking details of the crime report.

00:21:46,080 → 00:21:49,079

KELLY AGUDELO: This all has a knock-on impact in terms

00:21:49,080 → 00:21:51,209

KELLY AGUDELO: of the ability of analysts pull that

00:21:51,210 → 00:21:52,769

KELLY AGUDELO: information and make inferences on the

00:21:52,770 → 00:21:54,959

KELLY AGUDELO: basis of that data.

00:21:54,960 → 00:21:57,539

KELLY AGUDELO: So really important in terms of making

00:21:57,540 → 00:22:00,389

KELLY AGUDELO: sure that data is accurate not only from

00:22:00,390 → 00:22:02,039

KELLY AGUDELO: the perspective of understanding that

00:22:02,040 → 00:22:04,169

KELLY AGUDELO: national picture, but actually making sure

00:22:04,170 → 00:22:07,109

KELLY AGUDELO: that victims are seen in our data in a

00:22:07,110 → 00:22:08,759

KELLY AGUDELO: way that they are represented.

00:22:08,760 → 00:22:10,589

KELLY AGUDELO: So we know, for example, that there are

00:22:10,590 → 00:22:12,269

KELLY AGUDELO: particular communities that are

00:22:12,270 → 00:22:14,759

KELLY AGUDELO: underrepresented within our data.

00:22:14,760 → 00:22:16,319

KELLY AGUDELO: And we don't want that. We want them to be

00:22:16,320 → 00:22:18,179

KELLY AGUDELO: visible. We want to understand actually

00:22:18,180 → 00:22:21,029

KELLY AGUDELO: how is CSA/E impacting victims

00:22:21,030 → 00:22:23,009

KELLY AGUDELO: of particular communities.

00:22:23,010 → 00:22:25,379

PRODUCER: And that report that Kelly mentioned in our

00:22:25,380 → 00:22:28,169

PRODUCER: conversation, the National Analysis of Police

00:22:28,170 → 00:22:30,869

PRODUCER: Recording Child Sexual Abuse and Exploitation

00:22:30,870 → 00:22:34,089

PRODUCER: Crimes report, was published in January

00:22:34,090 → 00:22:35,459

PRODUCER: 2024.

00:22:35,460 → 00:22:38,549

PRODUCER: The report uses data collected from 42

00:22:38,550 → 00:22:41,459

PRODUCER: police forces to provide insight into the scale

00:22:41,460 → 00:22:44,369

PRODUCER: and nature of CSA and CSA offending

00:22:44,370 → 00:22:47,549

PRODUCER: across England and Wales in 2022,

00:22:47,550 → 00:22:50,369

PRODUCER: including crime types where these crimes were

00:22:50,370 → 00:22:53,459

PRODUCER: committed and the profiles of both victims

00:22:53,460 → 00:22:55,139

PRODUCER: and perpetrators.

00:22:55,140 → 00:22:57,959

PRODUCER: To conclude, I asked Kelly how close we are to

00:22:57,960 → 00:23:00,779

PRODUCER: achieving the one core dataset outlined in the

00:23:00,780 → 00:23:02,339

PRODUCER: IICSA final report.

00:23:02,340 → 00:23:05,639

KELLY AGUDELO: So, within policing, we have a policing

00:23:05,640 → 00:23:08,309

KELLY AGUDELO: core dataset, which we are working towards

00:23:08,310 → 00:23:10,199

KELLY AGUDELO: and have been working on for the past few

00:23:10,200 → 00:23:12,509

KELLY AGUDELO: years. But we know that the policing

00:23:12,510 → 00:23:14,549

KELLY AGUDELO: picture is just the tip of the iceberg.

00:23:14,550 → 00:23:17,369

KELLY AGUDELO: We know that there's a large amount of

00:23:17,370 → 00:23:19,769

KELLY AGUDELO: underreporting in this area.

00:23:19,770 → 00:23:21,929

KELLY AGUDELO: So there is a lot of work to be done in

00:23:21,930 → 00:23:23,579

KELLY AGUDELO: terms of how we link in with partner

00:23:23,580 → 00:23:25,199

KELLY AGUDELO: agencies to understand what's being

00:23:25,200 → 00:23:27,119

KELLY AGUDELO: reported in to them that hasn't come in to

00:23:27,120 → 00:23:28,799

KELLY AGUDELO: policing.

00:23:28,800 → 00:23:30,659

KELLY AGUDELO: There's lots of work needed in that

00:23:30,660 → 00:23:33,749

KELLY AGUDELO: respect. I think it's really important for

00:23:33,750 → 00:23:36,839

KELLY AGUDELO: other statutory organisations, and

00:23:36,840 → 00:23:38,489

KELLY AGUDELO: other organisations generally, to

00:23:38,490 → 00:23:41,759

KELLY AGUDELO: understand the value of soft information

00:23:41,760 → 00:23:43,499

KELLY AGUDELO: — or intelligence, as we call it within

00:23:43,500 → 00:23:47,009

KELLY AGUDELO: policing. So it may not be that there is

00:23:47,010 → 00:23:48,419

KELLY AGUDELO: a tangible offence that they've

00:23:48,420 → 00:23:50,249

KELLY AGUDELO: identified, for example, but there may be

00:23:50,250 → 00:23:52,769

KELLY AGUDELO: some concerns; but actually it's really

00:23:52,770 → 00:23:54,149

KELLY AGUDELO: important for them to feed that into

00:23:54,150 → 00:23:57,299

KELLY AGUDELO: policing, within the intelligence

00:23:57,300 → 00:23:58,699

KELLY AGUDELO: routes across their local force, because

00:24:00,060 → 00:24:02,609

KELLY AGUDELO: what it does, if you get bits and pieces

00:24:02,610 → 00:24:05,339

KELLY AGUDELO: of information and intelligence, it builds

00:24:05,340 → 00:24:08,129

KELLY AGUDELO: up a picture for the analysts within that

00:24:08,130 → 00:24:10,019

KELLY AGUDELO: force to understand, actually, we've had

00:24:10,020 → 00:24:12,899

KELLY AGUDELO: information from this person about

00:24:12,900 → 00:24:14,789

KELLY AGUDELO: this person or network.

00:24:14,790 → 00:24:16,139

KELLY AGUDELO: And if you layer that with other

00:24:16,140 → 00:24:17,489

KELLY AGUDELO: information that might be coming in,

00:24:17,490 → 00:24:19,319

KELLY AGUDELO: that's really valuable. So I just want to

00:24:19,320 → 00:24:21,479

KELLY AGUDELO: stress that it's not just about reporting

00:24:21,480 → 00:24:23,309

KELLY AGUDELO: crime. Obviously, we want to make sure

00:24:23,310 → 00:24:26,789

KELLY AGUDELO: that we improve and increase, the

00:24:26,790 → 00:24:29,849

KELLY AGUDELO: way that child sexual abuse is recorded

00:24:29,850 → 00:24:31,979

KELLY AGUDELO: and reported. But actually, it's all the

00:24:31,980 → 00:24:33,969

KELLY AGUDELO: soft information that sits behind this.

00:24:33,970 → 00:24:35,510

KELLY AGUDELO: So, for example, this suspicious vehicle

00:24:35,511 → 00:24:38,520

KELLY AGUDELO: or I know that this person is using

00:24:39,750 → 00:24:43,439

KELLY AGUDELO: a particular method to groom children.

00:24:43,440 → 00:24:44,879

KELLY AGUDELO: All of that is really valuable.

00:24:44,880 → 00:24:46,679

KELLY AGUDELO: So I just would urge professionals to

00:24:46,680 → 00:24:49,409

KELLY AGUDELO: think beyond a crime report, but actually

00:24:49,410 → 00:24:50,969

KELLY AGUDELO: all of the soft intelligence that they

00:24:50,970 → 00:24:52,589

KELLY AGUDELO: might be aware of that they don't

00:24:52,590 → 00:24:55,169

KELLY AGUDELO: understand has huge value.

00:24:55,170 → 00:24:57,119

PRODUCER: In our conversation, Kelly explained the

00:24:57,120 → 00:25:00,089

PRODUCER: importance of avoiding gaps in the data.

00:25:00,090 → 00:25:02,219

PRODUCER: I asked Lisa McCrindle what data we are

00:25:02,220 → 00:25:03,959

PRODUCER: currently lacking that would improve our

00:25:03,960 → 00:25:06,479

PRODUCER: understanding of child sexual abuse.

00:25:06,480 → 00:25:08,599

LISA MCCRINDLE: What we don't have is a regular

00:25:08,600 → 00:25:10,699

LISA MCCRINDLE: prevalence survey. So we don't have a

00:25:10,700 → 00:25:12,859

LISA MCCRINDLE: regular survey that asks detailed

00:25:12,860 → 00:25:15,049

LISA MCCRINDLE: questions about the experience of sexual

00:25:15,050 → 00:25:16,669

LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse that people have experienced.

00:25:16,670 → 00:25:18,499

LISA MCCRINDLE: We get our data presently...

00:25:18,500 → 00:25:20,269

LISA MCCRINDLE: The best source of the data is from the

00:25:20,270 → 00:25:21,949

LISA MCCRINDLE: regular crime survey for England and

00:25:21,950 → 00:25:24,529

LISA MCCRINDLE: Wales updates, but inevitably that

00:25:24,530 → 00:25:26,269

LISA MCCRINDLE: suppresses some reporting because it's

00:25:26,270 → 00:25:28,939

LISA MCCRINDLE: framed as a crime and lots of people

00:25:28,940 → 00:25:31,279

LISA MCCRINDLE: won't necessarily feel confident to name

00:25:31,280 → 00:25:32,599

LISA MCCRINDLE: what happened to them necessarily as a

00:25:32,600 → 00:25:35,269

LISA MCCRINDLE: crime. The most detailed data we have and

00:25:35,270 → 00:25:38,089

LISA MCCRINDLE: that we draw on consistently is the NSPCC

00:25:38,090 → 00:25:40,729

LISA MCCRINDLE: survey that was undertaken in 2009.

00:25:40,730 → 00:25:42,349

LISA MCCRINDLE: That was a wider child maltreatment

00:25:42,350 → 00:25:44,299

LISA MCCRINDLE: survey, so it asked some questions about

00:25:44,300 → 00:25:47,359

LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse but didn't go into detail.

00:25:47,360 → 00:25:49,279

LISA MCCRINDLE: So what we really, really need, and what

00:25:49,280 → 00:25:51,259

LISA MCCRINDLE: would be a great investment in improving

00:25:51,260 → 00:25:53,599

LISA MCCRINDLE: our data, would be a regular prevalence

00:25:53,600 → 00:25:55,189

LISA MCCRINDLE: survey on child sexual abuse.

00:25:55,190 → 00:25:57,169

LISA MCCRINDLE: And when I say regular, we're not calling

00:25:57,170 → 00:25:58,756

LISA MCCRINDLE: for it every year, we're talking about

00:25:58,757 → 00:26:00,289

LISA MCCRINDLE: could it be every five years?

00:26:00,290 → 00:26:01,759

LISA MCCRINDLE: Could it be every ten years?

00:26:01,760 → 00:26:03,589

LISA MCCRINDLE: This would be a massive improvement on

00:26:03,590 → 00:26:05,599

LISA MCCRINDLE: the current data that we currently have.

00:26:05,600 → 00:26:07,249

LISA MCCRINDLE: And then in terms of service data,

00:26:07,250 → 00:26:08,479

LISA MCCRINDLE: there's lots that can be done.

00:26:08,480 → 00:26:09,979

LISA MCCRINDLE: There's huge amounts of information that's

00:26:09,980 → 00:26:11,869

LISA MCCRINDLE: collected by services that isn't

00:26:11,870 → 00:26:13,609

LISA MCCRINDLE: necessarily collected in a format that

00:26:13,610 → 00:26:15,529

LISA MCCRINDLE: can be extracted and analysed.

00:26:15,530 → 00:26:16,909

LISA MCCRINDLE: But there are things that could be done

00:26:16,910 → 00:26:19,639

LISA MCCRINDLE: to improve individual agencies' data and

00:26:19,640 → 00:26:21,799

LISA MCCRINDLE: their capacity to compare that data with

00:26:21,800 → 00:26:23,899

LISA MCCRINDLE: different agencies in their locality.

00:26:23,900 → 00:26:25,549

LISA MCCRINDLE: If there was one thing that we would put

00:26:25,550 → 00:26:28,039

LISA MCCRINDLE: on a data wishlist, if you like, it would

00:26:28,040 → 00:26:30,079

LISA MCCRINDLE: be to improve our understanding about the

00:26:30,080 → 00:26:32,989

LISA MCCRINDLE: relationship between the victim and the

00:26:32,990 → 00:26:34,759

LISA MCCRINDLE: person that has abused them.

00:26:34,760 → 00:26:36,859

LISA MCCRINDLE: So that's often missing from data.

00:26:36,860 → 00:26:38,569

LISA MCCRINDLE: If we could get that understanding about

00:26:38,570 → 00:26:40,399

LISA MCCRINDLE: the relationship between the victim and

00:26:40,400 → 00:26:42,139

LISA MCCRINDLE: the person that's abused them, that would

00:26:42,140 → 00:26:45,289

LISA MCCRINDLE: give us huge insights into the context

00:26:45,290 → 00:26:46,999

LISA MCCRINDLE: of that harm that's happening, which

00:26:47,000 → 00:26:49,069

LISA MCCRINDLE: would enable us to think about prioritisation

00:26:49,070 → 00:26:50,359

LISA MCCRINDLE: and response.

00:26:50,360 → 00:26:52,729

PRODUCER: I wanted to end with one final incredibly

00:26:52,730 → 00:26:55,098

PRODUCER: important point from Lisa.

00:26:55,099 → 00:26:56,659

LISA MCCRINDLE: Data is data, and it's really important

00:26:56,660 → 00:26:58,549

LISA MCCRINDLE: to remember that all of those numbers are

00:26:58,550 → 00:27:01,279

LISA MCCRINDLE: children. They're individual children who

00:27:01,280 → 00:27:03,499

LISA MCCRINDLE: have experienced sexual abuse, who

00:27:03,500 → 00:27:05,509

LISA MCCRINDLE: somebody has sexually harmed them.

00:27:05,510 → 00:27:07,459

LISA MCCRINDLE: And I think it's really important that

00:27:07,460 → 00:27:08,809

LISA MCCRINDLE: when we are looking at those numbers, we do

00:27:08,810 → 00:27:09,810

LISA MCCRINDLE: remember that.

00:27:13,540 → 00:27:15,825

PRODUCER: Thanks to Lisa McCrindle and Kelly Agudelo.

00:27:17,110 → 00:27:19,599

PRODUCER: You can find links to all the reports mentioned

00:27:19,600 → 00:27:22,179

PRODUCER: in this episode, including the latest edition

00:27:22,180 → 00:27:25,089

PRODUCER: of the CSA Centre's Trends in Data report,

00:27:25,090 → 00:27:26,650

PRODUCER: in the podcast show notes.

00:27:28,820 → 00:27:31,069

PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for

00:27:31,070 → 00:27:34,969

PRODUCER: Change, we'll be focusing on children in care.

00:27:34,970 → 00:27:37,219

PRODUCER: What does the IICSA final report suggest we do

00:27:37,220 → 00:27:39,289

PRODUCER: to better protect vulnerable looked after

00:27:39,290 → 00:27:40,290

PRODUCER: children?

00:27:41,780 → 00:27:43,969

PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues

00:27:43,970 → 00:27:46,429

PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to

00:27:46,430 → 00:27:49,579

PRODUCER: the NSPCC Helpline for support, call

00:27:49,580 → 00:27:50,820

PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000

00:27:52,700 → 00:27:56,300

PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.

00:27:57,350 → 00:27:59,809

PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn

00:27:59,810 → 00:28:01,369

PRODUCER: 2023.

00:28:01,370 → 00:28:03,379

PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of

00:28:03,380 → 00:28:05,869

PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is

00:28:05,870 → 00:28:06,870

PRODUCER: ever-changing.

00:28:07,250 → 00:28:10,069

PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC learning

00:28:10,070 → 00:28:11,170

PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.

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