PB-E6 Discuss 022324 v3-mast ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to Prisonyland fishes, fish, school of Listeners, I'm

Paul Adelstein: Sarah, I'm Paul, and today's episode is called Riots, Drills, and the Devil

Sarah Wayne Callies: Part 1. And fun fact about that, I was actually going through my old scripts, um, because I save everything like a hoarder, and uh, I have some of the white pages and some, a few of the blue pages collated into my shooting draft.

Paul Adelstein: No one knows what that means, that there's different colored

Sarah Wayne Callies: pages. We, I feel like we went over this earlier, but maybe somebody's

Paul Adelstein: just tuning into this episode

Sarah Wayne Callies: and it's, you know, okay, let me, okay, we'll back up. So seven, so this, the salmon pages is the final shooting draft and I collated a bunch of stuff in there.

That's seven revisions. It goes [00:01:00] white, blue, pink, canary, green, goldenrod. And salmon, which for a big episode like this, that's a lot does make some sense. Um, but what I noticed actually in the white pages was that the original title of this episode was Paul

Paul Adelstein: riots, drills, and Jesus, as

Sarah Wayne Callies: opposed to the devil.

Paul Adelstein: And it probably just got bonked, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, one imagines that somebody at Fox network was like, If we're gonna have Then Mr. Murdoch

Paul Adelstein: said, no.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mr. Murdoch's like, I have one opinion about this entire season, and it's that I don't want you to use Jesus. I don't want that. We don't know where it came from.

That's just an educated guess, or an uneducated guess. What else did

Paul Adelstein: you see when you looked through that?

Sarah Wayne Callies: So there was another little change. There's a Sarah and Michael scene that starts, uh, hottest April on record. We talked about this a little bit earlier. That's partly because we shot the pilot in November, December.

Uh, Yeah. In Chicago is very cold. [00:02:00] And these episodes like the, the salmon pages came out on August 12th. So we were shooting these episodes in the heat of a Chicago summer. Yeah. So we have a hottest, uh, hottest April on record to account for everybody being in t shirts. And originally his response was, parenthetically, genuinely happy to see her.

Sarah, how are you? By the time we got to the salmon revisions, his response to hottest April on record was a dry global warming. Um, and I would be willing to bet that that's in response to a Wentworth note because we were always trying to slow down the flirting, the kissing, the romance. There was a draft early on in the first eight episodes that had us like smooching in the infirmary very early on.

We were both like, nah, too soon, too soon. Yeah, I gotta

Paul Adelstein: stretch it out. You gotta stretch it out. Um, we have a very [00:03:00] exciting episode because we have a wonderful guest that will be joining us after the Calisthenics. Yes, we do. Index, and after a rewatch named Michael Kudlitz. Sarah, give us a little Michael Kudlitz intro for our fans.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, so Michael and I have actually been on two of the same shows together, Prison Break and Walking Dead. We have never actually been in a scene together. Have you ever worked with him? Have you guys been on the same show?

Paul Adelstein: I don't think we've ever met. Until we just said hello on

Sarah Wayne Callies: Zoom. Ah, well, consider yourself lucky.

He's a ton of fun. We've also, we've spent the most amount of time together doing, um, conventions around the U. S. And I believe in Paris. Um, Kali is a great hang. Uh, I will get to his extensive filmography when we introduce him, when we get around to, uh, introducing him.

Paul Adelstein: Alright then, should we jump in with the INE

Sarah Wayne Callies: index, please?

We'd be crazy not

Paul Adelstein: to. Okay. Uh, the INE index for riot drills in the devil part one. This episode [00:04:00] originally aired on September 26th, 2005, written by Nick Santora, another one of the writers who would continue with the show through season four. Robert Mandel directed it, and the synopsis, synopsis, this one from Wikipedia, Michael's idea to get more drilling time by provoking a lockdown backfires horribly.

It's kind of Sucre's idea, but that's, we can do that during the, um, during the rewatch. The show drew 8. 55 million viewers up from last week, again opposite Monday Night Football on ABC, in a new episode of Two and a Half Men, which must have been a relatively new show then, and Las Vegas. On NBC

Sarah Wayne Callies: in global News on this day in 2005, uh, a hundred thousand people attended an anti Iraq war rally in DC In, uh, that same week, the un warned that a avian flu outbreak could cause five to 150 million lives.[00:05:00]

Um. In slightly less terrifying news that did in fact come true, uh, rumors began this week that Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt had begun an off screen romance after they worked together in Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Have

Paul Adelstein: you watched that movie? Which, I love that movie, by the way. It's a great movie. So charming.

You're just like, those people are fucking. You're just like, God, and both, they're so beautiful and I'm, you know, I'm, I feel bad for whatever, uh, source it caused, caused in their real lives, but my God, do they have chemistry. Uh, also in pop culture, in theaters this week were Corpse Bride, directed by Tim Burton, A History of Violence by David Cronenberg.

Uh, Flight Plan, starring Jodie Foster, which kind of had Prison Break vibes, in a way. You're on, you're in a thing, you have the plans, you have to crawl through the guts of the thing. On the TV side, Desperate Housewives, The Office were becoming giant hits. And on the music end of things, around this time, Death Cab for Cutie dropped.

The album plans and the number one [00:06:00] song in the billboard charts in america was gold digger By rabbi kanye west featuring jamie foxx and that is the calestine index so, please Join us now as we re watch riot drills and the devil Part one. You ready to watch

Sarah Wayne Callies: it, sir? I am. So this is one of the things that happens as an actor is you discover your backstory as you read.

Yes, correct. I wonder when Nepper read that, he's like, Oh, copy that. By and large, when someone says there's nothing to worry about on prison break, Yep. One should start to worry. Correct. Immediately. It's a drill. We have riots. Check. Drills. Check. And the devil. Check. Oh,

Paul Adelstein: drills. I always thought of it as drills like running a drill.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh no, I think they're drilling. Oh, shoot.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, is that their cell?

Sarah Wayne Callies: This is their cell.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, this is how Bagwell

Sarah Wayne Callies: gets involved in the whole thing. That's so great. This is how Bagwell gets involved. Well,

Michael Cudlitz: well, well. [00:07:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh my gosh, that was to be continued. Wow.

Paul Adelstein: That's all we get. How should we get out of this one?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh.

Very upsetting. We will be right back to talk about the episode.

Paul Adelstein: Okay, welcome back. Lots to talk about there. Wow. Yes. And let's talk about it. Let's bring in our special

Sarah Wayne Callies: guest, Sarah. Um, for those of you who don't know, Michael Kudlitz played C. O. Bob on Prison Break, an ill fated, short lived, very pivotal role, um, with an insane amount of sexual violence. We'll talk about that in a moment.

Before that, he was in Band of Brothers. Um, brilliantly, 24, Beverly Hills 90210, among other shows. After his itty bitty little stint with us, um, he went to, which is like, talk about catastrophically underusing an actor, but he went on to play Officer Cooper in this critical hit, Southland, and [00:08:00] then Abraham and the Walking Dead.

I also directed a few episodes of that show. After that, he starred in a show that I'm so mad was canceled. I loved The Kids Are Alright. Fucking love that show. Um, and he can currently be seen playing Lex Luthor on Superman and Lois. He's also the father of twins. Which I feel like deserves an award in and of itself.

Um, Michael Kovlitz,

Michael Cudlitz: welcome! Hey guys, nice to see

Paul Adelstein: you. We have um, we have a funny connection. I realized reading your very impressive, uh, biography. I was in a theater I got my Start acting in a theater company called New Crime in Chicago that was founded by John Cusack, but that also was, uh, kind of co-run by Steve Pink.

And you played Bob Stefano in Gross point

Michael Cudlitz: blank, right? Point blank. Yeah. Had a, had a great time with those guys. Yeah. That was

Paul Adelstein: basically that entire crew of people. I mean, two new crime guys wrote it and John was a star. And many funny

Michael Cudlitz: story [00:09:00] about that too is, um, Jenna Elman and myself were the only two people in that, in the main cast that were not part of their core group.

Yeah. Oh, wow. And, and we were cast. I think, um, uh, the, the, the, there was a movie that was not done filming and there was someone who was supposed to play my role and they brought me in last minute and they were very upfront about it. They were like, this, John's buddy was going to be doing this, but he can't.

So we're recasting. And when we got on set, myself and Jenna, we met and, uh, we, same situation for her. Um, so we brought in, uh. Always

Paul Adelstein: fun. Always fun to know that.

Michael Cudlitz: No, I actually appreciate it and um, for me it was sort of like, cause you're not like the other choice. You're not like, you know, you were never in consideration.

Somebody fell out and you're, and you're brought in. I'm, I'm more than fine with that, but we didn't know any of those guys at all and had a great, great time. Oh yeah. It's such a good movie. Gross

Paul Adelstein: point blank. Everyone should check that movie out. [00:10:00] Sarah, bring us to Prison

Sarah Wayne Callies: Break. Well, here's so, okay, so I want to, we'll start at the beginning.

A couple of the other folks that we've interviewed. Uh, or head on as guests, including Paul, who's not a guest. Skip this. Anyway, auditioned for multiple roles before ending up playing the one that they played. Is C. O. Bob the one role you auditioned for on the show, or did you read for anybody

Michael Cudlitz: else? My story with that is a little bit different.

I knew, uh, uh, I was good friends with Mike Pavone. Um, back in the beginning, beginning of it, um, even further back than that, I was actually shooting a movie in Prague called Running Scared. And I saw, I don't know if you, you guys probably covered this early on, but, um, the, the original script was a six episode limited series.

Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I was in Prague and my buddy Johnny Messner was sent the script, [00:11:00] uh, just to see what he thought, you know, interest or gauge interest or whatever, it was way before they did it. Um, Fox loved it so much. They were like, we don't want to do just six and end it. We want to.

Expand this. So that's, that's what news to us. So, so I think that, uh, season one was really based on, on those first six, which was the entire show. And that is why I think they went, they went somewhere else on the next season because it was just, the idea had played out, um, really played out in six and was incredibly dense.

It was, and it was incredible. Um, not that the show isn't, but just the six were so dense. So that intensity. Yeah. And it was, uh, it was, it was, you know, fantastic at that time. I had nothing to do with it. Um, when it did come to getting produced, um, they were looking at me for the, um, forget his name. Uh, the main [00:12:00] Wade.

Oh, we're looking at Bellic early on and I was not available. Before that, it was, it was Mike just wanted to know if I wanted to do it. And I knew, uh, Michael Watkins as well, who I didn't see till I got there. And Michael was, I love Michael. Um, really creative, wonderful director. Um, very. Um, very in the moment and very, uh, spontaneous and really had been doing it and has been doing it so long, uh, as a director, is not afraid of anything or anyone.

Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: so, so Possibly born not afraid of anyone. Yes. Mike Watkins.

Paul Adelstein: Or the army, or the army taught him that. Yes, exactly.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh no, he's not army. He's not army. Did he ever not? Show you the No, he's, um, he's a marine. Oh,

Michael Cudlitz: sorry, Maureen. This strange question, did, [00:13:00] was there ever a chicken on set?

Paul Adelstein: I don't know. I mean, I was not.

Not that I remember. Why? The first season. Why? I'll bite. Why? He does this thing where he

Michael Cudlitz: shows you how you can literally, like, you, you take a chicken and you, you do something with it and you put it on the ground and you draw a line on the dirt. And the chicken, the chicken will literally just like, Freeze here and freeze at the wall.

It's the

Paul Adelstein: most amazing like hip you can hypnotize a chicken. Jesus I wish we could get him on with the chicken. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, we're gonna have to do a live video episode Yeah, Mike and a chicken

Paul Adelstein: when you came in. Did you was was riot drills your first? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Michael Cudlitz: So you, it's

Paul Adelstein: basically the arc of C. O. Bob, right?

Cause it's going south. Yeah. Yes. And did you come to Chicago and stay for the duration? It was like a two, two episode

Michael Cudlitz: gig. Yep. Yep. I came in and they were like, [00:14:00] Hey, we're doing this thing. You know, we want to bring you out. Uh, it's two episodes in and out. It's like, great. Um, didn't really know what it was till I got there.

Um, But I, I trusted everyone involved and at that point it was, I was doing a lot of guest spots, uh, in my career and having a great time traveling around and, um, I had a really great time on the show, actually. I was treated really well, uh, everybody was very welcoming. Um, that's where I met Dominic, I'm, I'm still, you know, loosely in touch with Dominic.

Nice. Um, who at the time was, uh, even more intense. Yeah. If that's possible.

Sarah Wayne Callies: He started at peak intensity. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. He has not burned much jet fuel

Michael Cudlitz: off. He's still going. No, he's an intense dude. And, and honestly, um, I get along great with him. Yeah. And, uh, he, he's remembered me through my career and, you know, like Sarah was saying, I was, I was really in and out, [00:15:00] but, um, especially for him, uh, I think only two scenes with him.

And, uh, he remembered me and had the next time I saw him was like three, four years later. You, you did, uh, the cop, the young guy. And it was like, yeah. And then, so he, he's been, he, he's been great through my career and, uh, it's been nice sort of seeing him at conventions as well and seeing what, what he's up to in his life and, you know, we're all just, you know,

Sarah Wayne Callies: moving through it.

Wait, I want to back up for a second because you just mentioned somebody, my, arguably my first friend in the business was Johnny Messner. Really? We did. We did, uh, Tarzan together. Oh my gosh. Um, and this was when Johnny was like, he had just done Anacondas. He was in the, the Bruce, uh, posse and like his life was Bruce and Cole and all these guys.

Um. And he was the person who kind of like a little bit took me by the hand and was [00:16:00] like, here are some of the ropes of Hollywood. Not, not, not a ton, but you know, I'd never been to LA and he was this like really lovely big brother.

Michael Cudlitz: Another really intense dude, but really just a huge, huge heart. Just a really sweet guy.

Well,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and then years later I did this like celebrity fashion show with Katherine Morris. And she was like, you're a friend of Johnny Messner's, right? And I was like, yeah. She goes, I like, just started dating him. Is he a good guy or should I run the other direction? Yes. And I was like, yes and yes. Totally. I was like, yes and yes.

Paul Adelstein: And are they married with children

Sarah Wayne Callies: now or is that, is this? They're married with twins. And it's so beautiful. I mean, Johnny and I lost touch because I left LA and I'm just, I'm never there. But like, I have so much gratitude in my heart for. the kindness that he showed me as somebody who was brand new did not know a goddamn thing.

So I love that you guys were in Prague together when you were [00:17:00] like first exposed to this. Because they must have wanted him for Link.

Michael Cudlitz: I don't even know. Um, I don't even know. He's like, you gotta check the script out. I read it. It's one of the best things I've ever read. Um, you know, uh, I'm gonna give it to you.

I was in my trailer reading it in between. Um, I think I, I We were like trading like what stuff to read and I think I recommended Game of Thrones to him at the time so it was like on two or three. Um, just again, just trading stuff back and forth and he was like, yeah, there's a ton of ton of stuff in here, you know, a lot of a lot of guards and inmates and, you know, this is, you know, Yeah.

Check it out.

Paul Adelstein: Did you have, you had a lot of physical stuff in, uh, this Prison Break

Sarah Wayne Callies: episode. I'm sorry. We're like down memory lane. Paul's like, bring it back. No,

Paul Adelstein: I'm gonna, that's our job.

Michael Cudlitz: No, I got a great Nepper story about that, the dragon. Yeah, I was gonna say,

Paul Adelstein: so you'd, you had already You'd already [00:18:00] had a career at that point, I mean, you'd done a lot of stuff, you'd done, you'd done Band of Brothers, you'd done physical, you'd done fights, you'd done blood, you've gotten, you'd done all that stuff, how did that, how did Prison Break, sometimes it's different on TV, I mean, Band of Brothers was TV, but it had probably a film pace, um, sometimes it's different on TV because it's rushed, and it can get, it can get hairy, did you feel, was it cool, was everything

Michael Cudlitz: okay?

Everything was great. Uh, I dig the pace of TV, personally. Oh yeah, I do too. I think it just makes all the bullshit fall away. Like, if you're not in the moment, in the truth, I take three. Moving on. If you get three, you know, I mean, there's no The guest star. Yes. And it's like, you know, you gotta, honestly, the guest stars are sort of the unsung heroes of the television universe because you, you don't get to have a bad day.

Paul Adelstein: We just talked about that recently. I think that the guest star, uh, especially a principal guest star on an hour long drama is [00:19:00] the hardest, maybe the hardest job on film. Yeah. You have the heaviest lifting emotionally, the least amount of time. And it's not about you. About when you shoot last. Yes.

Everybody else is more important, both in wardrobe, hair, to the directors, to the producers, and you just have to land it to make the main characters cry. You have a story that's really about them. You got a

Sarah Wayne Callies: two page

Paul Adelstein: monologue. So can you do the, can you do the cancer monologue again? We forgot to pick up this one thing.

You better be

Michael Cudlitz: in it when they cut to

Paul Adelstein: you. That's right. That's right. Totally.

Sarah Wayne Callies: For the 10 frames. Yeah, we, um,

Michael Cudlitz: but the physical stuff, yeah, we had a, there was a, the one thing I remembered was the, or that sticks out is a really funny story with me and Neppert, and he's, he's doing this thing where he has to drag me down those metal, that whole metal staircase and the catwalk.

Dude. Brutal. And he's got to drag me around. They're bringing the cranes coming up and following us down the catwalk. Cause they're shooting it from all down on the ground. And, uh, you know, we go through this whole thing where he's walking. I [00:20:00] go, look, Robert, like this is all, all these sharp edges and everything here.

It's like, I am going to get fucked up. Um, you know, it got me padded out and we've done it. We've walked through it. I said. Don't stop. Like I will be the one who stops if something goes wrong. If something goes wrong and you're like, just keep playing through it. Just let, let's see when we get there. So we get to the end all the way down where I, and then I kick him and then he does this thing where he punches me.

So we go through the first take and he's drug me and I'm thinking, I'm thinking, Oh shit. My internal monologue is like, I'm just getting my ass beat on these metal stairs. And we get all the way down to the thing and it's all in one shot and he comes down and. Boom. And he punches me right, literally hits me right in the forehead and it goes,

Paul Adelstein: Oh, oh shit.

I'm so sorry. I'm so

Michael Cudlitz: sorry. And I go, dude, what did I say? No, we got to fucking do it again.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, that's right.

Michael Cudlitz: Like, yeah, you punched me and that's, and I get it. You're sorry. Of course you didn't mean

Paul Adelstein: to, but right now we got to do it again. [00:21:00] Oh my God.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wow. I mean, your head must have been against a metal, those metal stairs, right?

Like that'll ring your bell.

Michael Cudlitz: I think I kicked him and I looked up and I, and I went to get up and he hits me and I go down. So it wasn't like, boom, boom. But it was, it was the, it was the flat of his knuckles, right? Right in the center of my forehead. And now we gotta do it again. Yeah, yeah. And, and again, you know, like, it, it, that stuff happens all the time by accident.

You, you plan for it. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then something happens and he was incredibly, he felt like shit about it. Like, so. No. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: mean, a lot of people got tagged. I think, I think Dom got him once. Yeah.

Michael Cudlitz: No. And it, and it did. And I, and I think I get thrown, I think Dom throws me out like everybody's was beating.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. We just watched the first, we just watched the first one and, uh, you get popped pretty good. Yeah. You're

Michael Cudlitz: pretty ragdolled. Yeah. It was great though. I mean, honestly, it's like, it was, it was, it was, uh, it was fun. I, I, I watched it, rewatched it as well, and it was, uh. [00:22:00] Um, it's, it's, it's a very intense couple episodes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It is. I mean, you know, we were just talking about this cause we just did the rewatch together and there is, it's, it's kind of, especially the first one, it's, no, both of them, they're episodes about sexual violence. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's, it's Cherry's character. It's you, it's my character. I mean, it's really interesting that.

You know, we talked earlier, the second episode of the season, there's a race riot, and they just dig right into, this is the visceral, palpable terror of being in a prison, um, and Those

Michael Cudlitz: background artists were fantastic, like, and, and, uh, and just from a performance standpoint. Yeah. It's like, you're watching, and it's, it's like, it's like, holy crap.

Yeah, no one's,

Paul Adelstein: everyone's going for it, for

Michael Cudlitz: sure. 100%, 100%.

Paul Adelstein: Sarah, when you We're [00:23:00] shooting this stuff in the infirmary when they're coming for you. How did you feel shooting it? Where did you feel with all the physical stuff? Did you feel safe? Did you feel, uh, I mean, as an actor, do you feel safe?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, what was lovely about it?

And I think what happens on the best sets is that as soon as. Anytime that's not between action and cut, those actors were doing everything to make sure that they were like, I'm not a threat. I'm not a threat. You're safe. You're safe. You're safe. You're safe. I mean, they were really lovely. And what's interesting is these guys, none of them were series regulars, right?

Um, you know, these are guys jobbed in who show up, hi, I'm so and so I'm playing pop pop. Um,

Paul Adelstein: and I'm about to start, I'm coming for you and I'm going to start scaring the shit out of you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Completely. Uh, you know, it was interesting. It was interesting. I, in some ways, the weirdest part of it all, I didn't find out until much later.

And the caveat to this is, you know, like you cut this, I love Watkins. Like, I, I think he's fantastic at what he does. [00:24:00] Um, but the place where in a weird way, gender, I think ended up playing a role was, you know, like I said, we shot that stuff really late at night. They were long days, you know, we're on a couple of forced calls.

And I remember, you know, in the wee hours of the morning at one point. Uh, we were waiting while they set up a shot and Watkins turned to me, he's like, how you doing? I was like, I'm tired. Um, and as far as I remember, that was the only part of that conversation. That was the whole conversation. And I found out seasons later that he'd said to the producers, to the writers, you can't write her big episodes because.

She gets too tired and she can't take the, she can't take the hours. And one of the writers later was like, it took us a while to figure out that that wasn't true and to start writing you up again. And I was like, Oh, interesting. And it, you know, it may have been a very off the cuff thing that he said. I never got sort [00:25:00] of his side of it, but that in some ways was the biggest expression of the gender differentials going on.

And I, you know, I haven't sort of dug into the forensics, but I, if I remember right, after these two Riot episodes, like there wasn't a whole lot going on. And it was just a sort of interesting, it's tricky because as a woman in those situations, part of me wants to be like, just leave me alone and treat me like you'd treat anybody else.

And part of me wants to be like, no, actually, some of this is actually gnarly and can bring up, you know, like, like one out of four of us, I'm a survivor of sexual assault. And so there's moments where those kind of threats can get kind of like, you know,

Paul Adelstein: You're not one of the attacker. You're also the victim in the scene.

I mean, it's, it's so it's not, there's obviously the gender difference, but there's just also the power dynamic as it would be for Cherry or for Cudlitz, [00:26:00] you know, given the person that's being. Oh, that's interesting. Terrorized needs to be protected on set.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it was a trip, but I wasn't, you know, those actors were amazing.

They were like, as soon as they were like cut, you know, Kwame was like, Are you okay? Are you okay? I was like, I'm totally fine. Thank you. You're a big dude. You didn't hurt me. All

Michael Cudlitz: is well. Which is always hard coming in as a guest. You know, um, like you're You're, especially in that situation, you are, your job is to terrorize, beat up, whatever the, the, the most important packages, product, whatever you want to call it on set, you know, the, that cast one through six, um, that the show needs to the cast members, one through six, um, being on the, I heard you guys earlier on the call sheet, um, the, the cast members, typically the one through six or one through eight will be your series regulars.

Um, and they are not necessarily from [00:27:00] a, from a, you know, a human standpoint or more important, but from a pure business standpoint, those are needed every day. So don't break those. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: And also there is a, the thing, especially, you know, in a show like that, those guest stars, those. Most of those guys that were young hadn't worked a lot.

There is a power

Michael Cudlitz: dynamic. Yeah, you know, going back to even Robert, talking about Robert, who's done it a million times, you know, and he's topped me in the head. Now you have somebody who's not doing it pretty regularly. That's right. The adrenaline gets going. Like, you, you, And to have them be aware, it's just wonderful to hear, because usually they are.

Usually everybody is aware of what they're able to do. Again, adrenaline can sometimes kick in and you're like, all right, I need to just take it about three quarters speed, you know? And that's the trick

Sarah Wayne Callies: of acting, right? Is your job is to lose yourself in the character, but not so far. That you create a dangerous circumstance for somebody else and, you know, you got to be able to do dangerous work without being dangerous to other [00:28:00] people and that, that's a tough balance to find.

Michael Cudlitz: The only way to go safe, to go emotionally deep, uh, for anyone, either the giver or receiver of, of the violence or whatever's happening is to feel safe. And when you feel safe, you can then go even deeper.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's right. Okay, so here's a question for you then, Kudlitz. I mean, now that you're on the directing side as well, I imagine, you know, this comes up in Walking Dead and stuff, right, too, is that It's a tricky situation to be in, I think, as a director, when you've got an actor going, no, no, no, make it real, hit me, hit me, hit me, and another actor going, I'm not so sure if I want to break my hand on your face.

Like, what's your approach to this kind of thing, having been on the other side of it?

Michael Cudlitz: Always safety first. Not even a question. Not even a question. So you sort of shut it down before it starts. So we'll do whatever we have to do to get you to where you need to [00:29:00] be, but hitting you is not an option. So just take that off the table.

You're not gonna, you're not gonna be hit. We're gonna pull it. You're gonna go work with the stunt director, you know, stunt coordinator and figure out how we need to do that. Or I'm gonna come off of those punches if I have to. But no, you're not punching anyone.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Hey, question. Um, we were trying to figure this out as we were rewatching.

Were you guys on a stage or were you in the prison?

Michael Cudlitz: Uh, we were

Sarah Wayne Callies: in the prison. You were in the real prison for all that. Yeah. Wow. All of it. What was that like? Walking around? I mean, because you mentioned earlier that the um, Pretty

Michael Cudlitz: crazy. It was Juliet, I believe, right? It was Juliet. That's

Paul Adelstein: right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was Juliet.

And a lot of those background performers had been incarcerated there. Like they had spent time there. Is that right? So how did that sort of feel that yeah, the energy of the place? It's

Michael Cudlitz: always as you, you both know, um, being in the space is always better. Yeah. Um, there's a, there's a coldness, there's an uncomfortableness, [00:30:00] especially in the prison.

There's a, there, there's a, there's a prison like quality. to the bridge. Whereas if you're on stage, chances are it would have been heated more. Um, it would have been warm, comfy, and there would have been sharp edges. And again, it's, it's, there's, there's just, you can, and set deck and art direction is amazing.

We have amazing people that we work with all the time, but whenever you can actually be in this space, they have to work around the space. Like I said, that's why they had to use the crane because they couldn't get up there.

Paul Adelstein: They had

Michael Cudlitz: to be on the other side of the railing to see the fight, and how do you do that, you know, we're two stories up, or a story and a half, whatever it is.

The two times

Paul Adelstein: I shot that, it was like, oh, this is just not a comfortable space, period. No. And not just because, oh, it's not that stages are so comfortable, it's like, when you walk off that set and you go and sit in your chair, you're talking to everybody, you're still in a friggin prison.

Sarah Wayne Callies: friggin prison.

Doors lock from the inside.

Paul Adelstein: The doors lock [00:31:00] from the inside. It's not comfortable. And that, there's no way that that doesn't seep into, into the DNA

Michael Cudlitz: of the thing. I would say that, that carries over to really anything. Um, you know, like when we, uh, Sarah and I did Walking Dead, you know, Georgia and Atlanta were We're absolutely a character, you know, you don't, you don't have to sort of like, uh, say, okay, you're, you're, you know, you're hot and you're miserable and it's like, showed up for work.

Yeah. It's like a big chunk of the work is, uh, here's an assist.

Paul Adelstein: Huge assist. Huge, huge, huge assist.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's a bunch less acting that you have to do. So, okay, backing up a little bit more slightly macro, I'm thinking, you know, the line from Band of Brothers to something like Prison Break, to something like Walking Dead, to something like Southland, there's an evolving masculinity there, [00:32:00] right?

Like you've been a part of some pretty red blooded shows. I didn't realize how,

for lack of a better word, what a sausage fest prison break was until I started doing other kinds of shows. And I was like, oh, there's, there's different vibes on different shows. For instance, they have women in them, directing them, writing them, whatever. Um, and in the time, you know, like you've been doing this long enough that you've been on sets as the Me Too movement starts to shift.

You've raised daughters. You've moved through this, like, I'd love to hear, this isn't really a specific question as much as like, when you're starting to now, the evolution of our articulation of masculinity as storytellers and the way you embody it as a man on a set, [00:33:00] how has that started to

Michael Cudlitz: shift? It's an, it's a very interesting topic based on my body of work, actually, and a great That's a great question.

Um, I, this is going to sound very self serving. I probably have changed least of most of the people I know. Um, I've always, always been very aware of my surroundings. I've always been what I consider, um, uh, a very considerate human. Um, very aware, uh, and, and very much a caretaker, uh, in my life and on set.

Um, I've had situations where, like, like when we talk about we go all the way back to Band of Brothers. Incredible male energy on that show. Just incredible meaning, the level of it, obviously. Um, they [00:34:00] It is possibly one of the most selfless sets I've ever worked on, which is mind blowing for me because you have Saying something.

So many dudes who are, you know, alpha dudes working together, but the fact of the matter, we were rescued by the subject matter and by these men that we were representing. They became more important than us. Um, and I think that's the key to all of this is that if there's something outside of you that you're aware of, that is more important, like other humans.

Um, I think a lot of that stuff gets, uh, neutralized. There's still obviously, you know, and there's, there's men and there's women and there's that, there's a, there's a different energy to it. Um, but, uh, I've seen in, in my career on sets. a tremendous amount of change between, you know, the dynamics of men to men, men to [00:35:00] women.

Um, and it's, it's, you, you see it. I mean, if you were to put things next to each other, uh, something that you shot, you know, 10 years ago and something you shot today, there's just such a huge difference. And it all comes from, in my opinion, uh, awareness. It is nowhere near, uh, a perfect situation, but it is absolutely.

Headed in, you know, in a completely different direction. I would say the right direction

But there's still it's still there and there's traces of it there that are that are big traces it's It's

Paul Adelstein: an interesting thing. You say Michael because the band of brothers example is a great example in a positive way in That you guys were all you're all young and you're all hopped up on testosterone, but you guys were playing people that needed to be honored, but also the, I mean, the theme of that show is obviously [00:36:00] this moment in time where people by that, um, by that dramatization of it were selfless, had each other's backs, um, were willing to do anything for the bond that they had created.

And I would imagine that that bled into how people wanted to be perceived and behave on set.

Michael Cudlitz: It's, it's it, but. All, all male writers, all male DPs, all male directors. I mean, that, that, and that would not, just would not be the case now because it's just, um, aside from them going, you know, there may be some value, aside from that, it just wouldn't, just the numbers of the, the availability of amazing female directors, we'd be like, Oh my God, we have to have, you know, we have to have that person.

It's, it wouldn't even, it wouldn't even be male, female in, in, in a lot of the discussions. It would be like, you know, we have to have, you know, Michelle [00:37:00] in like, because she's a class director. I don't think I fully answered your question though. I mean, no, I mean, it's a, it's a huge question. It is a huge question.

And, and I think that, you know, that I think if, if you approach it and you approach your work and your life, like you need to do better, you're about as ahead of the game as you can get. Because you're, you're, you're, you're sorting out who you are in this world, who you are, you know, how you were raised, how you operate in, you know, in the world with other people.

There's so many things going on. And I think that if you're, if you're, if you're aware of it at some level and you are trying to do better, you will, um, generally speaking. Um.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I think maybe part of the seed of the question, not that we need to go back to it, but as I'm, as I'm thinking through my own curiosity here, you have been in a [00:38:00] lot of spaces that are almost exclusively male spaces.

And what I've learned as a woman is that the seeds of violence towards women start in spaces where we aren't. And so, If the world's going to get safer for us, it's going to get safer in those spaces and the way that men talk to each other and talk about women and, and that's what I think is really interesting as I start to see changing in Hollywood is when I'm on a set and somebody tells a joke and another guy goes.

Come on, man. We don't, we don't need to do that. Instead of me going, could you please not use my anatomy to articulate male weakness, please and thank you. That makes a huge difference. And, and I think it's, um, I don't know. I just, I see, I see hope in some of these. It's all male spaces and, and, you know, you've walked through a bunch of them.

Paul Adelstein: Let's take a quick [00:39:00] break and then we'll come back and we'll answer some fan questions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We have fan questions for you. Do you want to answer some fan questions? Yeah, answer some fan

Paul Adelstein: questions. First fan question. As being primarily in a male space throughout your career, I was like, Oh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: um, we'll just do a few of these because I know we don't have a ton, a ton of time. This one actually I'm curious about.

I think I know the answer, but I'm curious. This is from Aisha who's at PB Miso Lovers. Did playing Bob help your career in any way?

Michael Cudlitz: Uh, my career? No, I would have probably paid my mortgage. There you

Sarah Wayne Callies: go. Fair enough.

Michael Cudlitz: You know, I would say, you know, yeah. In the immediate, no. In the long term, of course. You meet people, you have relationships with people, they say, oh, I like that guy, I want to work with him again.

Or your name comes up in a room when you're not there, [00:40:00] which they, for all of us, they always do. And if somebody's making a decision about something, they say, you know, oh, we're thinking about, I just. Dude kicked ass on that set, you know, it was great. So sure, I mean it all, it all helps.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. Um, from at more than tea bag, um, you, uh, don't overthink it.

You are very well known for your work, for your role on The Walking Dead. Do you ever get recognized for C. O. Bob?

Michael Cudlitz: Uh. At conventions, people have come up and they're, they're prison, huge Prison Break fans, Prison Break fans, and they, they come to see me. So I don't know if anyone's ever walked by and went, hey, that was, I'm sure at the time, because the show is very popular, so I'm sure that the few weeks after it initially aired, people would recognize me for it, but it's not something that I'm approached on on a daily basis.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Fair enough. I have one more. Paul, do you have anything else you want to add? [00:41:00] I don't know if you have our fan questions. Um, this is from the Neves Company. This is, there's a bit of a run up to this, but I like the run up. So I'm going for it. There is a prison break fan fiction episode in Spanish that I love where the protagonist who is the ultimate fan of the show literally gets trapped in the story.

And knowing that everything that happens, she then prevents Bob's death. Oh my gosh. And he helps her so that everyone can escape from Fox River. I love Bob a lot, says at the Neeves Company, uh, and in the series we weren't even allowed to see much of him, so this is the question. How does it feel to be the most beloved guard in all of Prison Break?

Paul Adelstein: How

Sarah Wayne Callies: lovely. There's just something so warm and fuzzy about that I had to read it to you.

Paul Adelstein: And Mac's gonna be pissed.

Michael Cudlitz: Mac's gonna be pissed. It makes me feel like I deserve to live in a terrace. In a terrace? The Terrace. That's right. That's from part two.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, [00:42:00] we've only watched part one. Part two

Paul Adelstein: we're

Michael Cudlitz: watching next week.

It's my license and I live on, uh, you know, whatever it is, uh, Johnson Terrace. You know, he's like, oh, and T Bag's like, oh, you live on a terrace. It's a fancy living on a terrace. Oh boy. And then he talks about going and raping my daughter, so I guess it's not too, uh, too fun

Paul Adelstein: to look at. So much sexual abuse.

Very

Michael Cudlitz: rapey. Um, I love it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, and then tell them thank you, well, I guess they're watching this, thank you for saving Bob and you're not taking fan fictions the direction they usually go.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, last question, uh, if you were on death row, last meal.

Paul Adelstein: Uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: probably

Michael Cudlitz: sushi.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. If you were allowed also a cigar and a scotch, do you want to

Michael Cudlitz: add that to that?

I would definitely have a cigar and a whiskey. [00:43:00] Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sushi, cigar, and a whiskey.

Paul Adelstein: Cigar and a whiskey.

Michael Cudlitz: Not in that

Paul Adelstein: order.

Sarah Wayne Callies: These are all the things you need to know. It's just about Michael Kudlitz.

Michael Cudlitz: This is all you need in your life.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Hey man, thank you

Paul Adelstein: so much. Yes, thank you, Michael, so

Michael Cudlitz: much. I appreciate you guys.

It was nice traveling and very nice to meet you. If anybody

Sarah Wayne Callies: wants to throw more questions, um, at us or fan art, uh, featuring C. O. Bob, please keep it. Not necessarily G rated, but not X rated. Um, we are at Prison Break Podcast. Um. At Prison

Paul Adelstein: Break Podcast on Instagram. And remember those who want to watch the Watch Party experience with us, feel free to subscribe, hit play, watch this episode, next episode, all episodes with Paul and Sarah.

And Michael, this is how we do our sign off. We've started our guests, started asking our guests to fill in the following. [00:44:00] Okay, you up for it? Let's

Michael Cudlitz: do it. Let's do it. Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Okay, folks, don't go to prison. But if you do. Wear your pants.

Michael Cudlitz: There you

Paul Adelstein: go. That's it for us. Thank you. Thank you, Michael.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We'll talk to you next time.

It doesn't get better than

Michael Cudlitz: that. Thanks,

Sarah Wayne Callies: guys. Bye, everyone. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Caliber Studio production, and our hosts have been friends with our besties, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Edelstein. Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haber. Our head of Jailhouse Rock is Paul Edelstein, who made the Podcast keeping us slim and trim.

The Prison Yard has been sound designer and editor. The great Jeff Schmidt keeping us up to date on the outside world is production assistant Drew Austin. Letting the world know what's been happening to us in prison is Social Media Manager Emma Tolkien. Our prison artist logo and brand designer is John Zido and Little Big Brands.

Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com. Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at prison Breaking [00:45:00] at Caliber Studio. And call us at 401 3P B R E A K. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a Caliber Studio production. Thank you for listening.