Prison Breaking - Episode 1 - Pilot Paul: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the first episode of Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. I'm Paul. Sarah: And I'm Sarah. And we're friends. We are Paul: not like, we're not best friends kind of thing. We're adults. We don't have best friends, but we're good friends. You don't have a bestie? I mean, I have a friend that I've been friends with for about three, but I'm not going to, I don't know. It seems weird. Um, we're just regular, let's just say we're good friends and we became friends doing a television program called Prison Sarah: Break. And that's what we're going to rewatch here today. And going forward with you find people because, I mean, because all silliness aside, because it meant something to us. It meant something to a Paul: lot of people. It was a, it had a, it kind of was a bit of a rocket ship that show. [00:01:00] Sarah: Mm hmm. And things change, right? When you look back at them, I think, we've been talking about how, uh, re watching it feels like watching different people than we are now. Paul: Yep. And a different time. A different time in the country and a different time on television. Television is so different now. And, uh, it's been really fun to go back and thought it would be fun to kind of include the audience in on that. So here's what we'll do. Every week, every episode, we will watch the show together. We'll record our reactions as we talk about the show, and then we will play the reaction clips for the audience to talk about each one of those moments. Sarah: And sometimes we'll have some guests on to talk about the show, creators, actors, directors, crew, maybe even some fans of the show. Paul: And then we'll start off, uh, right before we jump in with our version of Harper's Index. Sarah, tell them what Harper's Index is. Sarah: Uh, so Harper's Index, for those of you who read Harper's [00:02:00] Magazine, there's this wonderful page of statistics that tell a story. Random Paul: statistics about the culture, about geographical things, about all sorts of minutia that are, is fascinating. And we'll be doing that about each episode that we Sarah: present. Which we are going to call the Kallistein Index. Uh, which is a Paul: combination of our names that Sarah came up with, the Aidleys, the Aidleys, Sarah: the Aidleys, Paul: the Wainelstein, Wainelstein, it doesn't, none of it's, Sarah: the Aidleys by the way sounds like something for which you need antibiotics. Correct. So, um. And we're going to give you facts and locate you a little bit in pop culture so that we have some sense of what the world was like when this show was airing pre streaming. Paul: All those years Sarah: ago. All those years ago before Paul and I had children. This is our rewind. That's our flashback. That's our flashback. Okay. So here. The very first. [00:03:00] Palestine Index. Title, Pilot. Writer, Paul T. Schering. Director, Brett Ratner. More on that later. The pilot premiered August 29th, 2005 at 8pm. Remember, this is all before streaming existed or anything like that. Quick plot refresher, Michael Schofield is imprisoned in Fox River State Penitentiary. He finds his brother, Lincoln Burroughs, who is a death row prisoner. And tells him that he is going to break them both out of prison. Paul: Competition in this time slot included NFL preseason football on ABC Rams versus lions, a rerun of king of Queens on CBS and a rerun of fear factor on NBC ratings wise overnight ratings clocked in at. 10. 51 million viewers. Wow. Fox's highest summertime Monday rating since 1998 with Ally McBeal and Melrose [00:04:00] Place. And I do believe that we were at 8 p. m. and that 24 was at 9 p. m. Sarah: That's how it. would be, but this, um, so we premiered the first two episodes actually, um, back to back. Yeah. So the pilot was at 8 p. m. and 9 p. m. was, uh, the episode called Alan. Yeah. Um, Okay. So we're continuing our, our calistide index here. We are locating you a little bit in a little bit of history and pop culture. So August 25th, 2005 was also the day hurricane Katrina made landfall on the Gulf coast, becoming one of the deadliest and most destructive natural disasters in us history. Uh, on that same day, Lance Armstrong retired from cycling after winning his seventh consecutive tour de France, which was a record, and he has remained an unproblematic figure in sports ever since. And beloved. With an unblemished [00:05:00] reputation. Paul: Yes, correct. Uh. Uh, in the, in the large, in the culture at large, the 40 year old Virgin was in theaters, major breakout comedy hit. Good morning. Mariah Carey's song, We Belong Together, was topping the charts. Sarah: Paul, can you sing any of We Belong Together? I don't Paul: know it at all. Okay, fair. I thought of this yesterday. I do not know that song. Sarah: I don't either. And it's probably a copyright infringement, even if we were to try and sing it. Right, Paul: right, right, right. Or at least I could quote a bunch of shit from 40 year old Virgin, but this is a different podcast. Okay, Sarah: so moving on. That's the Kallistein Index, and here is the rewatch. Or some highlights from. Three, two, one. Paul: Play. Did you audition for Sarah, or was it an offer? Sarah: Offer? I'd never done anything. Paul: Oh, so that's, yeah. You know what I auditioned for originally? Tell me it was Lincoln. It was Lincoln, and this was the audition scene.[00:06:00] Sarah: We shot 23 takes. of the master for this. Went and I had dinner the night before and I was like, Oh, this guy's really lovely. And after the master, I was like, Hey, it's nice working with you. I'm gonna get fired. Paul: I think a really cool thing about this pilot, which is smart, is that there's a lot of tension, and then we're at two thirds of the way through, and then there's real violence. And with that, we'll be right back. Sarah: Alright, welcome back, Paul: everyone. Okay, shall we break that down? Let's break it Sarah: down. Break. Down. Paul: We're gonna make the jokes. We're gonna make all the prison break breaking Sarah: jokes possible? Every one them. And we're gonna ask the fans to send in their bad prison break jokes. Okay. Because, why not? Paul: Sure. And drinking games. There was a prison break drinking game, which I never played, but we should [00:07:00] certainly play it at some point. Sarah: I only remember two rules at this point. Um, you had to drink whenever somebody said either inside these walls or outside these walls. And then you had to drink whenever Dr. Tancredi took off her exam gloves. Uh. Wow. Yeah, and I remember that because there was an episode where we tried to like, work in five pairs of exam gloves in one scene. Cause you were like, let's Paul: get these, let's get these people drunk. Yeah, let's make sure the people have a good time. I have also played a doctor on television and I had real trouble with The Sarah: gloves are a trial. They're a trial. It's a thing. It's a thing. Um, yeah, you get the powder all over your hands. Oh, yeah. And then you touch Paul: your trousers. It's impossible to do. Very hard to do Sarah: looking slick. Wait, let's start with how you came to the show. Because you came to the show with a career. I did not. Paul: I mean, ish. I was older than you. I was 30. You're still older than me. Correct. 35. I think I had been a series. I had been a [00:08:00] recurring on a couple of shows. I had done a lot of theater in Chicago. I, uh, had been in some movies and I had been a series regular on one show. I, uh, had been going back and forth from Chicago to LA for years and I had worked. I had done some pilots that didn't go, et cetera. And I didn't want to live, uh, in L. A. until I had an established career, but by, you know, early 2000s, I found myself spending about six to seven months a year in L. A., and I was like, okay, it's time to move. I got rid of my apartment in Chicago, I moved to L. A., and I promptly didn't work for six months to a year or something. Which Sarah: feels super normal. Paul: I mean, it's just how it goes. And then I got prison break, which shot in Chicago. Sarah: And where did you move to when you moved? I lived Paul: with my brother, my brother and his wife and daughter. Sarah: Okay, because I feel like I saw you, we bought an apartment in Wicker Park. And I feel like I would see you running all the time. Yeah, they Paul: were right nearby. Two [00:09:00] blocks from Sarah: there. Oh yeah, that was a great neighborhood by the way. I put a pin in something you said earlier during our rewatch that you almost turned this down, or you almost didn't do it three times. Yeah. Because you started by reading for Lincoln. Paul: Well, that was, I, so I started reading, I read for Lincoln. Just bananas to me. And I was like, Oh, this would be so fun. I will just never stop lifting weights. And then they called me, they wanted me to read for Kellerman, which I did. And it was, you know, in the, like, I'm, Like, Dr. Tancredi, I mean, it's two scenes, you have no idea what it is. Yeah, none. It's two scenes, they don't tell you anything, you're like, I'm just gonna make a guy up. Yep. So I made a guy up, they liked the guy, and they made me an offer, and I don't remember the exact conflict, but I, I think I had already gotten a Bill Lawrence pilot. And there was some other stuff going on in my life. And I was like, this just doesn't seem like the right timing. And then people were like, yeah, but [00:10:00] you never know what something like this could turn into. So just do it. And they said, I had like 24 hours to think about it. And then they called and they're like, we're literally about to offer it to the other person. So, and I know who that person was, but I won't say, cause I do. Sarah: Yeah, no, you can't say. But when we get off this zoom, I'm going to find out Paul: and I went and did it and I had a great time doing it. And then, uh, when it went to series, they said, we're going to make a 10, 13 to deal with you, which means 10 episodes out of the first 13. I had the same deal. Yeah. Again, I had 36 hours to respond. I was in. I was in Mexico with almost no phone service. Oh. I had done a pilot and we didn't know if that pilot was going to get picked up or not. And they had the option. So they, until they said yes or no. Right. And I'd lost a huge job a few years earlier because of a scheduling conflict. So it was a particularly sore subject with me. I was like, I can't believe this is going to happen. This is just my life. [00:11:00] Yeah. And then I, I'm in Mexico and I had never, I had had a lawyer, people, some people in entertainment have lawyers and you're like, I don't know, what do I need a lawyer? I needed to look at one contract and that person was taking, getting 5 percent for years. And I was like, what is the value of this? And then that lawyer, who's wonderful, she called her boss, who is a very powerful. Lawyer, he's been in the business forever. The, uh, uh, the shark from Jaws is named after him. Oh, Bruce And a wonderful man he got in about 25 minutes, I'm not kidding the heads of each studio on the phone Yeah, and said kids figure it out. We have this problem that I did it and the studio goes don't tell anybody But we're not gonna pick that you up so he's free to go and just do it. Sarah: And that's that guy earned that 5%. Paul: And I was like, I was like, that was 10 years in Sarah: time. Correct? Yep. Yep. Paul: I mean, and I was like, Oh, I see what power [00:12:00] is. It was so generous. Anyway. So then, I mean, then I got to do the show and I had a great time. How did you come to, how did you come to Sarah: it? Well, so I think I was the first person cast because I had a So we shot the pilot in 2004. I had finished graduate school in 2002, so I was Where did you go to graduate school? Brand new, I went to the National Theater Conservatory in Denver. Okay. Colorado, which has since been closed. It was the only congressionally chartered acting program, master's program in the country. But I went there because if you got in, you got a full ride plus a stipend. And that was, uh, that was in my price point. So I went and I did a few episodes on a show called Queen Supreme. That lasted very, very, uh, little time. And then I ended up doing a show called Tarzan for The WB, which is now The CW. And that lasted, uh, even less time. I think we did six or seven episodes. But for [00:13:00] some reason, Travis Fimmel. Okay. Who at the time was a giant model. He did, he was like the Calvin Klein underwear guy and has since gone on to do Vikings and all kinds of amazing things. And so I think John Papsadera who cast this show, who I really want to get on, um, our little podcast here, cause I want to talk to him about it. I think Paps had seen, had seen Tarzan and I remember him sitting in my first audition with like, came out to the waiting room and just kind of sat down in the chair next to me. He's like, how you feeling? And I was like, oh, good. I think he goes, all right, well, come on in. And he was so laid back. And like, he reminds me a little bit of the dude from the big Lebowski. Like everything is always mellow with him. And he read with me and you know, I, I, I knew nothing about how the business worked. And so then they called me back for this. studio Paul: network. Was it just him? Yeah. And like a reader or Sarah: whatever? Yeah, I think it was a pre read, right? Like, I hadn't been in the [00:14:00] business long, so they were just like, we don't even know if she can act. Right. And I'm Paul: curious, was it taped? Sarah: Yeah, I believe so. It was. I think so. I mean, you know, I'm going back a long ways here. But Um, so the, so two things happened that might be noteworthy in my callback. The first was actually, I dug out the sides. I have them here. These are my audition sides. Um, so the first thing that happened, I Paul: know that you guys can't see it, but I'm on the team and I want to see the old timey side. And I also Sarah: like to see what actions, objectives and obstacles, drama school, Paul: homework. So Sarah: misnery. So, no, not Meisner, that's Stanislavski. I never studied Meisner. Oh, maybe it's Meisner. I don't know. I never studied it. Maybe I'd be better if I had. So, okay. So, two things happen. I have to Paul: correct because I, hold on, I feel like we're going to get all sorts of angry actor emails if this show ever sees the light of day. That would be amazing. I would [00:15:00] like to clarify that of course Stanislavski started with the objectives, um, but I felt, I learned it through the Meisner technique, which was kind of a distillation of Stanislavski's thing into action words, et Sarah: cetera. Oh, yeah, again, maybe this is, maybe this is why they shut down the National Theater Conservatory. Because we Paul: didn't have that right. Maybe I should have. Yes. No, I love this can of worms. I'm sure the Congress really, I'm sure the Congress really dug into that one and was like, yeah, we can't, we cannot clearly support this misreading Stanislavski's oeuvre. I Sarah: think probably the congressional decision went something like this, wait, we have a National Theater Conservatory? Good God, get rid of that. I'm in the audition. It's the studio is there. The network is there. Brett Ratner is there. And, uh, it's the second audition scene, I think. And first of all, this [00:16:00] is an interesting difference. The second scene, there's only two scenes in the pilot, right? They'd sent me the script and gone, we'd like you to audition for Veronica. And I was like, I don't like Veronica. Uh, I like Sarah because she handles everything with humor and irony. Um, not realizing that Veronica was going to be the female lead of the show, make vastly more money. And have a better deal. I was just like, I don't know. I like her better. So sometimes ignorance is useful. So it starts with Sarah looks over Michael's charts. Can you? Yeah, of course Paul: I was gonna say that's actually you made obviously the right decision because not just because of how it turned out, but You already knew which is impressive to follow your gut for what you thought was going to be most satisfying and interesting I mean that is not that sometimes takes a long long time to figure out I certainly didn't have that clarity of mind all the time So I wouldn't call that I wouldn't quite call that call that [00:17:00] ignorance, but gone Sarah: Well, I mean for what it's worth actually to contextualize it and not to dog on the show that I you know That gave me my start, but I remember reading Tarzan and going, I don't think this is very good. And I was talked out of that by a lot of people who knew the business better than I did. And in the end, the show was canceled because it wasn't very good. And so I think looking, there was just a tiny part of me as I read this script that went to maybe just trust your gut a little bit. You know, at the end of the day, like, our taste is a big part of what we have. I mean, there was buzz around the show because of Ratner, but I, you know, everyone was like, Prison Break. I mean, the show was called the Untitled Prison Break Project because they thought that was a dumb title Paul: for a long time. Yes, I remember Jon Stewart made fun of it. Did he? Sarah: Yeah. Jon Stewart knew we were alive? I know, right? That makes me really happy. It Paul: was that year, too, it was right around. [00:18:00] Prison Break, what could that show be? It was like one of those jokes about, like Sarah: Yeah. I mean, not to mention what happens when they get out. Paul: Isn't it giving it Sarah: away? Yeah. We should probably back up into the small origin of the show. It was designed, I think Paul Schering told me once, it was designed to be a season, a one season, maybe a two season. Oh, I thought it Paul: was a two season idea. Sarah: Oh, right. I thought it was. Season one is the breakout, season two is. Season two is the exoneration. Paul: Like on the run and exoneration. Right. Sarah: Alright, so hold on. This does seem to just be par for the course. Paul: Okay. So, you go in to read for Sarah Tancredi, because you didn't want to read for Veronica. And Paps Adair comes out and sits down next to you and goes, How you doing? And you go, Sarah: He's super sweet. We do the thing. A little while later, they bring me back. I go into the room. It's on Fox Studios, which, if you remember, is harder to get into and out of than a maximum security prison. [00:19:00] My Paul: joke at Fox Studios was, if you can get to the audition, you should get Sarah: the job. I mean, for real. Um, P. S. once when we were working there during season four, the guy at the guard shack who saw me three, four times a week, I forgot my ID and he sent me home to get it. And I was like, I don't want to be a jerk. I'm not saying don't, do you know who I am, but you do know who I am because you see me every day and you know that I'm not here to steal the original film stock of the sound of music or something. Anyway. So I get through, which is already amazing. I park. in the, uh, parking garage. I closed the door and I realized my keys are in the car. I've left the keys in the ignition there. Oh, but I'm like, Oh mother of God, I have closed the door of my, whatever it was, I think it was a very old Subaru with my keys in there. And I just sort of went, I can't think about this right now. Right. [00:20:00] So I go in and I audition. So Paul: wait, when did you realize they were in the car? Like as soon as you shut it? closed Sarah: the door. Oh, I didn't realize. And tried the handle and discovered it was locked. And Paul: then you had a 15 minute walk ahead of you to get from your car through security to the Because it's Fox. Sarah: Because it's like It's, you know, like a half a mile away. And I was like, I just can't I just can't think about this. Yeah. So I walk in the room. It's Ratner. It's the studios. Executives. It's the network executives. Uh, Papsidera must have been there. It's actually a relatively small room. I've done some of these, you know, studio network tests in giant cavernous halls that are very intimidating. It was relatively intimate. Um, first thing that's an interesting difference is the first lines of the scene too. Sarah says, you went to Georgetown. Michael says, it says that there you've been checking up on me. Sarah says, I like to know my patients. I went to Trinity, graduated two years after you, they changed those later, um, to Northwestern and something else, which I thought was sort of interesting. That is very small fan fact, but, [00:21:00] uh, between the audition and filming the pilot. They shifted us to Midwestern schools, so I guess he never left, is the thing. So it goes on, maybe we met somewhere, you know, drunk out at a bar, Sarah says, I would have remembered. Michael says, is that a compliment? And for some reason. With no career, in the middle of a callback, I decide to change the line. Yeah. He says, Is that a compliment? And I just said, No. And What was the line? Uh, I just don't forget faces. And Ratner's head snaps up. He looks at me. As I'm doing this, and Papsadera kind of like cocks his head at me for a second. Oh boy. And I realize Paul Shearing is also sitting there. And I was like, well, that was a really dumb move, but I've already got my keys locked in my car. So how much worse could it get? I finished the audition. I go [00:22:00] outside on a bench and I call AAA and they were like, look, it's going to take us like two hours to get through Fox. So just stay where you are. Where are you? I tell them the name of the building and they're like, just stay right there. We'll find you. We'll call you in your car. When we can come to your car and Paul: you're like, I would, but all these executives and directors are about to file out of this one of Sarah: them. And I had to sit there like, I don't know, maybe 45 minutes later, they finish all their callbacks and they all Paul: see other women. Did you see other women go in for the role? Not that I Sarah: remember, actually. Um, there may have been. I just, I, I, I had so many other things in my brain at the time. Uh, yeah, so they all walked by and I remember one of them, one of the executives looking at me with this like abject pity. Like, oh my god, this poor girl is so desperate. That she's stalking us. So yeah, that's my, um, that was, that was how I got there. Oh. [00:23:00] Um, yeah, that was great. Wait, I had a question. Paul: Yes. You said no. Did you say no, I'm, I just never, no, I just am good with faces? Or did you say no? Sarah: I said no. I saw Ratner's head snap up, and then I finished the line. I just don't forget faces. And I think actually, if I remember right, I think, I think Paul on the day, he was like, you can put that no back in there. And I was like, I'm really sorry, I'm not trying to tell you how to write. He's like, no, I don't hate it. I was like, all right. Um, there was something else. He gave Paul: me a little slap down once too, but. Ratner did? Uh, no, Paul. Oh, really? Paul Schur. It wasn't a slap, no, I shouldn't say slapped on, it was actually very kind, but he said something like, oh, you keep this up, I'm gonna have to make you an executive producer or something, or like give you a raise or something. I could save the story for that episode, probably. Okay. Sarah: Yeah. You guys are just gonna have to wait on that one. Yeah, Paul: yeah. Well, we'll cut this out, but yes. Sarah: Um, Paul was very good, actually, about us [00:24:00] shifting lines around. As I remember, he, he seemed to take a sort of best idea wins approach and not be, I've worked with other writers who are not as flexible as he is. It's interesting Paul: because Paul, this is Paul T. Shearing who wrote, who created the show. Wrote Sarah: the first two episodes. Paul: He. was not a TV writer. No, Sarah: I don't think he'd ever run a show before. Paul: Or written a play. Well, he'd never run a show, but he'd, I don't even know, had he written films before? He was mostly a fiction writer. Am I making that up? Sarah: I honestly don't Paul: know. He seemed to be not, um, as invested, in a good way, well, I shouldn't say in a good way, in a healthy way, certainly for him, in And having a TV career as most people in that job, like he really, he didn't seem precious about it. Well, and Sarah: you know, it was interesting because so much of that dialogue, I do remember reading the script [00:25:00] going, this feels very specific. Like this prison writing feels very specific. And I guess he had, remember when chat rooms were a thing? He had gone. on a bunch of, uh, either prison chat rooms or like former inmates and sort of posed as one of them and Gotten that language like fish and celly and, you know, all the very specific stuff. 'cause I'm sure you had this experience too. I would meet people who had gone to prison in the course of the show that just sort of happened and they were like, yeah, there. A lot of that felt really accurate. Oh, this is a, this is an interesting, um, Dom and I actually went to a maximum security prison. Whoa. When in Chicago to prep. It was between. The [00:26:00] pilot and episode one, we went together, uh, I think we had both independently asked to get a sense of it. And they sent us to this place and it was so intense. And I remember at one point I needed to use the restroom and so the, the corrections officer who was taking us around was like, all right, I'm going to walk you through the mess hall to get to this place. And there was this man serving, he was an inmate who was serving food. He must've been on, I guess, PI or something. And as I walked by, we made eye contact and he had these beautiful blue eyes and this really open face. And he was somebody who you immediately. I immediately felt I would trust. He was sort of charismatic and friendly looking. And later, as we were leaving, I was like, Hey, that guy there. And she remembered him. And she said, yeah, I killed a family of four around their dining room table. And I actually was so [00:27:00] struck by that. I use that later in something that I wrote like aftershock or something. Um, But it completely undermined my sense of my ability to judge someone's character. Wow. Because I saw, I mean, it's not like I had a long conversation with him or stared deeply into his eyes, but every instinct I had was, that's a trustworthy human being. You just, you Paul: just, you were first Sarah: read. I did not see it. And I came home from that experience curled up on the bed. went immediately to sleep, like my entire system was like, we need to reboot, fell asleep, woke up an hour later, sobbing, just like all of the stuff that you kind of take in in a space, especially being a female in an almost exclusively male space. Um, it was. It was so intense. I was glad we did it, but I, I was like, okay, that's, that's enough research on that front. How did, Paul: speaking of which, you, I've, [00:28:00] I was on a different show than you were in season one. That's Sarah: entirely true. Until we ended up in A& E together. I don't think we Paul: really, I think that was, we did become friends during season one, but I don't even remember, like I said, meeting, but we certainly didn't have any work together. Sarah: Um. We met at like, cast dinners and stuff. Yeah, Paul: how, but speaking of being a woman in a male space. Whew. Uh, Fictionally and in reality, that's what you were doing. It was a pretty macho, I shouldn't say macho, I should say pretty male show. Also, not just the actors, but most of the directors were male, most of the writers were male. Sarah: Although We had two female writers and one female director, maybe? Right. Paul: Karen. Karen Usher. Sarah: Naviola. Karen Usher was the writer and Karen Gabriela was the director, who's now the president of the DGC, I think. Paul: And Marty Noxon was a writer, I don't know if she was there season one or not. But it was Sarah: overwhelmingly male. Paul: Can you talk about how that [00:29:00] Also, you were new to the business, did you just think that's how it was? Were you, I mean, you must've been obviously aware of it, but how did you, how did you find it? It's an Sarah: interesting question. I mean, in some ways I was siloed in my own show, which was a romantic drama. Paul: Um. I Sarah: mean, you know, we shot the pretty early on, we did the riot episodes. I think those were like five and six and those were, you know, those were pretty intense, but there was a certain point where, you know, I would work one, maybe two days an episode. So much of it was the guys in the cells in the yard and that kind of thing. So I was. I got to see the best of people in a lot of ways, you know, like a Maori was just this like ball of light that would be like, Mommy, every time he saw me and like, give me a big hug and stuff. And, um, you know, I got to know people socially a little bit, the sense of. [00:30:00] There was absolutely a sense of what it meant to walk from the trailers across the yard into the infirmary sets and not see another woman that wasn't hair and makeup. Or Jenny Lee. Oh my gosh, do you remember Jenny Lee? She was our PA. She was this Young woman, she wasn't real tall and she would shout rolling rolling. Oh, yes Would like it made us die laughing and it was so sweet, but she'd be like from across the yard she'd be like Her voice would cut glass Oh God lover she was so sweet, but it was a hugely male environment and I didn't really notice until the business changed and my career changed and I wasn't. I was no longer the one woman in the show because I, I mean, I think I had one [00:31:00] frame with Robin where like she opens the door and I'm on the other side of it. I did have some scenes with the woman who played Nurse Katie, um, who was wonderful and who's passed away. Oh. Yeah, she passed away of, like, heart trouble or something. Do you remember her name? Mm, gosh, I should. Um, Duchon, I think. Okay. Uh, she was wonderful. Super warm, another one of those Chicago locals who's just, like, a really talented actor. Um, but yeah, there was definitely a sense that we didn't have much status on the show. Especially because, look, I didn't, right? Like, I mean, my character, like you, I was given a 10 13th deal. Paul: Do you remember what number you were on the call sheet? Sarah: I don't remember my number, but I remember when they were doing the billing. I was like, can I get last billing? I was like, can I get and, or with, with the last? Because I don't want to have to fight for high numbers on the call sheet. And you don't really have anybody who would matter. So they're like, we [00:32:00] don't care. So it came out, and I got calls from all my friends in grad school. They're like, and Sarah Wayne Calley's? What has Sarah Wayne Calley's done that deserves an and? It's a significant Paul: billing. Sarah: It was what they gave me instead of money. I mean, truly, like they, it was years before I would find out how much less I was making than the rest of the cast. But that's a story for another time. Um, okay. I'm not sure if we may or may not keep this, but I'm going to ask you first, do you have any Brett Ratner stories? Uh huh. You want to tell one? Paul: Uh, I have one that I can tell and one that I wouldn't tell because it was him being mean to somebody. Um, I mean behind talking, saying something about an actor behind their back, which I was like, don't do that. Um, he was dating one of the Williams sisters. Like Sarah: Venus or Serena? Paul: Correct. [00:33:00] While we were shooting. And I remember when we were shooting that scene with the bishop, where Danny, Hale, and I go and sit down with the bishop. He was in an argument with his girlfriend. Screaming, on set, and would then be like, that's not what I said! It's not! Hold on! Rolling! Action. Hold on. One cut. That's not what I said. Let's go again. Listen, you're not listening to me. Like, he never hung up. Oh. And he was like, my word. I was like, oh, this is like a, doing, this is like a seventh grade boy with a lot of power. He, like, he, he was just like, it was a little jaw dropping. Um, so that, that was my Brett Ratner story. I'm sure that you have, Sarah: well, I mean, I have a few that I won't share, but the one. The one, as we were thinking about this, I was like, I've never told the story before. And I think Brett has it coming. So, because [00:34:00] for, again, I was new in the business and this was one of those moments that a little bit just made me go, what, what job is this? Like, what is this workplace? I had come to set a couple of days early. I always do this to watch the director direct and see what the tone of the show is and like, what's going on. And so I'm. Standing, because we shot in December of 2004, it was very cold in Chicago, as it is wont to be in summer. Um, we'd gone over a few days, uh, they were running behind, and There was a tent set up, the director's tent, in the middle of the field and I showed up after lunch and it's freezing and Wentworth was there in like 50 layers of down just trying to survive. And we just come in from lunch and I was standing there by a heater. Brett sits down in the director's chair, pulls out a, [00:35:00] I've never seen one of these actually. It was a disposable tongue scraper. Starts scraping his tongue. Paul: Oh God, what? Starts Sarah: scraping his tongue. What? I think Wentworth and I briefly looked at each other. This is not where I thought this was going. And was like, what's going on? No, I'm not telling those stories. Um, there's, there's enough of them. I Paul: just did not see tongue scraper figuring in Sarah: this. Tongue scraper. The next thing that happens is he flicks it onto the monitors. Oh! Oh! And there's now tongue scum. I don't know what you call it. All over the monitors. Tongue scum is appropriate. Tongue scum. He turns to a PA and says, Clean that shit up. Paul: Bull I mean, I almost said bullshit. I was like, I totally Sarah: believe this. The first thought in my head was, You just told me everything I need to know about you. That's one Paul: of the worst That's outrageous. I've never heard Sarah: Believe them. I was That is Paul: so Sarah: disgusting. [00:36:00] So horrified. It was, um I've never told that story, but there's a part of me that's like, You know what, dude? I'm done. You should be held accountable for behavior like that because some poor PA in very nearly freezing weather in Chicago had to go home and have their Friend or spouse or partner go, how was your day when I had to clean the tongue scum off a Paul: monitor. I mean, there's so many things that are disgusting about that story both physiologically and power and psychologically and power Sarah: power and Hollywood man Paul: and also showing off For you guys, like what is that part? Sarah: Like is that a flex? Paul: I mean, weird Sarah: one. Anyway, um, maybe on that note, we should wrap up. Paul: And with that, we'll be right back.[00:37:00] Welcome back, everybody, to Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. Sarah: Is there anything else you want to talk about? I mean, there was so much in that pilot. Including I forget that not everybody's gonna Hear the whole rewatch, including, I mean, the last moment is a pretty breathtaking film moment reveal. I Paul: agree. I think that there, there's two astounding twists in the pilot. One is that they're brothers, which is like right in the middle. That great shot against the fence. Yes. The snap. Yes. And then kind of the sub reveal is when Lincoln sees him. And then the reveal at the end that he has the plans tattooed on his body. Because there are s I think Paul, what did so well, not just episode to in within one episode, but also throughout season one in particular, is lay the groundwork for stuff that doesn't pay off till much later. It's really [00:38:00] easier said than done. It's a patient, especially in television because so many things change and the studio wants different things. The network wants different things and different actors get hired and different directors and you have to put like the fact that the first shot is him getting tattooed and you never know what it, you never know what it is until the very end. You don't know why he's going in there. You don't know what LJ is up to. You don't know all these different pieces. If you think about all the stuff that's on the wall, . Mm-Hmm. . You, uh, warden Broy Burrows, uh, burrows and, um, Muse's character. What's Muse's Character's name? Watson's character. Uh, DB Cooper d Db Cooper. He had a different name. Yeah. Charles Westmoreland, Charles West Westmoreland. Like all these things that are just, here's a bunch of clues and we're gonna stretch them out throughout the whole season. It's just so much fun. It's why people were so, it's a Sarah: addicted to it. It's ambitious. And, you know, back then too, there wasn't a lot of [00:39:00] television like that, you know, I think it's worth locating that moment in like, Paul: I really believe that it was related to 24 in that it was so intense, like so many shows were episodic, meaning Everybody uses the example of Law and Order. You can watch them out of order. It's a little, it's a 40 minute mystery and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. You can watch Friends. It's contained. It's one story. This was, if you didn't see last week. You know, you, this was talk about appointment television. You had to watch 24. It was literally 24, you know, hour long, sequential things you had to watch and people were dying for it to come out the next night or the next week, excuse me. And that was, that wasn't Sarah: kind of unusual. That was not a thing. Um, you know, the other thing too, as we were rewatching it, that I was like the, the intelligence of the show and the ambition of the show, I think is pretty, [00:40:00] uh, Not obvious, but you know, pretty clear. I was struck again by just how great their work is. You know, I mean, the vulnerability to see characters like Michael and Lincoln who are well constructed and hold their cards very close to their chest and have all kinds of wounds. Then take each other in with that kind of almost little boy. Mm-hmm, vulnerability and heartbreak, I think more than anything else. That's why you care because you see a very smart man who at his core has an Achilles heel and that's that he will do anything for his brother and his brother will do anything for him. And that's, you know, that like. We talk about this a lot when we're creating shows and stuff, but [00:41:00] none of the pyrotechnics matter if the two people talking in the room and their beating hearts don't connect in a meaningful way. And they did, they did beautiful work, um, which is really cool. It was, it was really nice to see. I'd only ever seen it. I saw it. In some agent's office or maybe John Papsidera's office right after it was picked up, but I haven't seen it in a long time and I don't think I've ever seen it with a detachment. You know, like there are things we'll get into this later, but there are things about that show that I love that I'm super grateful about. There are things about that show that also really hurt me and really took me a long time to heal from and being able to watch it now. I don't know about you, but. I don't recognize myself in it. I see some 28 year old, 20 something, 20 something year old girl named Sarah Wayne Calley is doing her thing. Yeah. [00:42:00] I almost don't even recognize you because you're such a radically different person. And that remove is interesting. Yeah, it was a Paul: long, long time ago. Mm hmm. It was a long time ago. Um, and watching yourself as an actor is One thing, and people have different relationships to it, but watching, like now, you know, I've, this is the first time or I'm getting to the point where I can actually watch things that were almost 20 years old. That's a whole different thing, because as you said, the Remove is quite different. Yeah. It's healthy. That makes it quite a different experience. Mm. Okay. No, you don't think it's Sarah: healthy. It's part of why I was interested in doing this podcast. I was like, I think I'm ready to watch this again and sort of like love it and be grateful for it and contend with it and negotiate it. What what do you. You disagree? I Paul: wanna hear why? Well, I, I, I think that I, I, I don't disagree, but I, I mean, it, it, it still comes with the challenges of watching yourself do something you're really [00:43:00] not supposed to watch yourself do. Mm. Um, and it just, it, it is easier to contextualize now. I mean, I felt like at the time or when I was getting used to watching myself or trying to get used to watching myself, it was so. I became so overwhelmingly whatever that I couldn't see other things. It almost became impossible to see the show. It almost became impossible to, Sarah: like, because you're so critical of yourself Paul: just because it took up so much room to process. Oh yeah. Just it was, Oh, it was like a sensory overload. I remember, um, one of my favorite actors, Kate Walsh said to me once, you're not supposed to see yourself from that angle. Like it's not even a mirror. You're not supposed to see yourself. It's like listening to yourself on a, on a, you know, when we were kids on a cassette recorder and be like, that's what my voice sounds like. I mean, we do all this work as actors that [00:44:00] were, you're self conscious of course, but you're trying to do. human behavior work. Yeah. And how it looks and sounds shouldn't, you know, we try to are constantly letting go of that so that we can do our work and be real people. And then you look at it and you're, you know, so that's Sarah: the poison. It can be Paul: the vanity can be poison. And then anyway, I think that it, it is now nice to watch it. in context without being, it's still painful, but overwhelmed by . That, uh, experience of trying to get used to it or it doesn't look like, I mean, it doesn't seem like me to me. Mm-Hmm. like you said. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. , you know, it's like, boy, me. But, um, , uh, I mean, I don't like some of it. Yeah, that's Sarah: okay. Yeah. Right. It's gotta Paul: be Okay. Also, I just came, I just came back from, uh, I did one of those, um, military goodwill [00:45:00] tours. Yeah. Literally just got back. We went to nine bases in Europe. And people want to talk about all sorts of different things. People wanted to talk to me about Kellerman every single place I went. Every single place. Yeah. And you're like, well, this isn't, I don't, what I think about this is, who cares? Sarah: You know, one of Paul: my favorite acting teachers. None of my business, as they said, you know, it's Sarah: none of your business. Totally. Yeah. My, this amazing acting teacher, Larry Heck, that I used to say, he's like, what you feel is irrelevant. what do they feel? That's the whole thing. Um, and it meant something to people. I did not expect it to mean to people what it has. And that's, uh, that's pretty extraordinary. Paul: I love that people in, I love that it has a thing that it was so not bingeable that it was addictive. And then now it has a life because it is so bingeable. I mean, I remember I have nieces that are in their early twenties, but when they were [00:46:00] In high school. So this is already 10 years after shows off the air, like a whole class of high school students in Minneapolis obsessed with prison making just like ran through every season of it. Yeah. Well, you know, because you could just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, either on DVD or streaming or whatever it was. Um, that's fun too, that it has that kind of life because there is something about the show. There's something about the storytelling. Even like, Oh, there's no iPhone. There's no, maybe because it's in prison or maybe it's just the kind of storytelling that it just seems a little out of time in a good way. Like it doesn't feel evergreen quality. Yeah. It doesn't feel dated in that way. It just Sarah: used to talk about it as though it was a bit of a graphic novel, you know, that there's a tone to it and a, and a, it's not. A sort of gritty slice of life, Paul: slightly elevated. It's slightly elevated visually, slightly elevated in the dialogue and the characterization. Sarah: I, you know, I'd be [00:47:00] curious. I don't think there's a way to find this out, but I remember one of my kids came home one day and was like, everybody in my class is watching your show. And I was like, not one of them will recognize me. Because it was a long time ago. You look exactly, Paul: okay, I won't do this. You look very much Sarah: the same. I appreciate that, but nobody, nobody is going to watch the Paul: Oh, it's not a compliment. laughter Sarah: You look every bit as broken. As you did. Correct. 17 years ago. Paul: Just as fucked up. But it Sarah: is interesting to me. I would be willing to, I would be curious to see if there are more people who have watched the show since it's been off the air than watched it. You know what I mean? Like look, 10. 51 million viewers is insane. Those numbers for now are bonkers. Now, not back then, not compared to like 24, but, um, Paul: That's a big number. That's a lot of people. That's Sarah: a big number. That's a lot of people. Um, okay. I want to wrap this up though, because, um, [00:48:00] because people have things to do. So I'm going to bring us to our wrap up fan finale. where we discuss fan fiction, fan art, videos, et cetera. Um, and by the way, anybody listening, you are welcome to send us yours. Uh, you can DM us on our Instagram, at Prison Break Podcast. That's all one word. And Paul: subscribers will have access to the full uncut rewatch, so you can hit play, watch at home with us. Uh, sometimes we'll say stupid things and possibly something interesting. Sarah: Um, we're grateful that you're here with us. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for prison breaking. With Paul and Sarah. See you next Paul: time. Bye. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Calibre Studio production. Your hosts have been friends, but not besties, Sarah Waincallis and Paul Edelstein. [00:49:00] Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haber. Keeping us slim and trim in the prison yard has been sound designer and editor Jeff Schmidt. Keeping us up to date on the outside world is production assistant Drew Austin. Letting the world know what's been happening to us in prison is Social Media Manager Emma Tolkien. Our music was done by Paul Adelstein. Our prison artist logo and brand designer is John Nunzio and Little Big Brands. Check him out at www little big brands.com. Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at prison breaking@caliberstudio.com and call us at four oh one three PB Break Prison. Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production. Thank you for listening.