Camden Bernatz (00:00:00) - Welcome to Brands and Campaigns, the stories and people behind clever marketing moves powered by EKR. I'm your host, Camden Bernatz, creative director and head of brand strategy at EKR. And today I want to talk about something that is a recent campaign, maybe you've seen before and if not, you should definitely check it out. Blockbuster, you've heard about it before, maybe you didn't know it was around anymore, but there actually is still a Blockbuster location located in Bend Oregon, the last of the brand and still holding strong out there. And there was a campaign that came out recently in response to a move by Netflix actually. So Netflix, of course, a lot larger company nowadays than Blockbuster is anymore and kind of played a role in the ending of the Blockbuster brand as the way we knew it. But Netflix on September 29th, I believe it was, ended their DVD program. I don't know if you knew that, but they actually used a still, they sent DVDs out in the mail and they were still doing that up until this last month. But now no more. If you didn't know that you missed the boat, you can't get DVDs from Netflix anymore. But in response to that this last Blockbuster location put out a campaign, a little clever and funny campaign in response to still having, to the move on Netflix and the fact that they still have DVDs.
And so joining the podcast today is AO Baker who played a pivotal role in putting together that Blockbuster campaign. And I want to get insights from him on how that came to be and just kind of the, the behind the scenes. So welcome to the show AO. Thank you for being here.
AO Baker (00:01:34) - Thank you for having me. Thank you for the introduction. I'm honored to be asked to talk a little bit about the Blockbuster campaign. It was very fun to work on, a very fun brand and it's been fun. It's been a good time, but thank you for having me for sure.
Camden Bernatz (00:01:47) - Yeah. Yeah. Thank you and, and tell us a little about yourself and, and your role and how this project kind of landed on your desk.
AO Baker (00:01:53) - Sure. So I am a copywriter. I work at Atlantic New York. It's the name of the advertising agency. Previous to this campaign, we did a campaign earlier this year right around the Super Bowl for Blockbuster. So this was my second campaign that I was able to work on for the brand. But yeah, like, this was something that Netflix kind of announced, I don't remember exactly when I know right over the summer, May, June we started talking about, like, really going and getting briefed on exactly what we wanted to do and then just kind of brainstorming and kind of putting those first pieces of ideas and thoughts down on Docs. But, yeah, so I wrote, I'm a copywriter that wrote the lines and the headlines and the captions and all the fun stuff for this last campaign.
Camden Bernatz (00:02:38) - Yeah, I want to, of course, this is a podcast. So those who are listening, I encourage you to check out the visuals of this later. But I have it pulled up here on like on the Instagram account and some of the articles like some of the lines you wrote are, “We still have DVDs and Humans, Blockbuster till the bitter end.” There's another one you should go check out on their Instagram where it's got the little bouncing DVD symbol which people haven't probably seen in a long time unless you've been watching DVDs and it says, “Screensaver and Chill, not only a Blockbuster,” and then there's also, yeah, kind of a fun little call out to Netflix itself. “Yes, Netflix we're still watching.”
So a unique campaign, not only because of the humor in it. But Blockbuster is a unique situation in which it's a well-known national brand that's no longer a national company, right? Usually you don't have that situation where everyone knows who it is, but no one really goes and uses them anymore. So I'm curious, was the team at Blockbuster, did they come to you and your team and asked to be prepared for this or were you already thinking proactively and having worked with them before you were proactively pitching this opportunity to them?
AO Baker (00:03:40) - A little bit of both, a little bit of both because like we knew that that date was coming up. But this is like you mentioned, this is a very small company. Like you mentioned earlier, this is really an international brand. There were Blockbusters all around the world that had spent millions and millions of marketing dollars back in the ‘80s and ‘90s and it became a lot of people keep Blockbuster close as far as something that they remember from their childhood is like that nostalgic thing.
But seeing how we had a really good response to that Super Bowl campaign early in the year. So it was a very organic conversation being that we knew we wanted to do something else with Blockbuster pretty soon not only to capitalize on the momentum that we built during the Super Bowl, but also to just kind of poke a little fun and have some fun with this Netflix news that was coming out.
So the general gist and the idea was knowing that this was coming out, knowing that Netflix started their DVD business after Blockbuster was around and obviously we all know the effect of that, but people have been writing Blockbuster off forever. It's dying, it's dead, it's dying, it's dead. But like you mentioned, there's this one store that's still there. It's still in Bend, Oregon. And now it's turned into a bit of like a place. Almost people have to make a pilgrimage, like a nostalgic pilgrimage to go. They make a lot of their money now is off of merchandising where people are buying like little souvenirs, T-shirts and hats and cups along with their, they still actually do sell the movies, but a lot of people just want to go because they either remember it or they heard about it if they happen to skew on the younger side.
So we just knew that it was coming up and it would be a good opportunity to poke a little fun. This is almost, Blockbuster is a challenger brand now, like they're a challenger brand as long, even though they've been around for so long, the roles are reversed and now they're challenging all of these streaming giants for and everybody's competing with them for attention in general. But they're this brand that people remember from movies, but now this is the place that you can go if you're collecting DVDs or you like the way the DVDs look compared to digital or if there are movies that are only on DVD, that might not be on streaming. So just to service those people and to kind of galvanize the people and the fans of Blockbuster and again, like, just take advantage of what was going on in the news around Netflix.
Camden Bernatz (00:06:02) - Yeah, clearly, you and your team have had a good understanding of the opportunity, right? It's not just like we're trying to drive video rental sales. Like that's first of all, you only can have so many people who are in that location to do that but understanding that the nature of what the brand is and is trying to accomplish has shifted over time. I'm curious what they are like as a client? Is there motivation to do some of this wide scale like Super Bowl commercials and this campaign because they're still trying to make sure that that merchandise and stuff can get sold or what's their motivation for maintaining such a wide awareness, I guess when they do have that one location?
AO Baker (00:06:36) - Yeah. So the merchandise, I don't remember the exact number, the percentage, but it makes up quite a large bit of their income. It's very important to keep the brand out there. Like if they were just selling DVDs or renting DVDs, they really would have been gone a long time ago. So the awareness is again to tie in a little bit of nostalgia and create these fun moments that you can turn into a piece of merchandise or even just awareness to drive people to the website to order or even to travel there.
So that's really the motivation because like, it's not as though Blockbuster is in a position to say, all right, we're going to gear back up to launch this new thing and go after Netflix for real or go after any of these other streaming services or that's just not the position that they're in. But they're in a very unique position to really connect on an emotional level with people that are familiar with the brand. It's just important to, -- if there's news that's relevant, like organically relevant to what Blockbuster means as a brand, it's a perfect time or an opportunity to take advantage of that.
Camden Bernatz (00:07:45) - Exactly. Yeah, perfect opportunity with this Netflix situation and being able to kind of capitalize on a bigger company's headlines and being able to slip into that conversation and in a way that's kind of endearing, right? People like to, oh, I get Blockbuster.
AO Baker (00:07:59) - Absolutely. And then even just like to poke fun at things that people know about Netflix. Like for example, we still have DVDs and Humans line. It's like, yeah, because even just thinking about the streaming service, that's all that Netflix has right now. You can't ask somebody on the other end of that button what's the last movie that you saw or what movie do you recommend or what's coming in later this week or just have a conversation that has nothing to do with movies. I grew up, about less than a mile from a Blockbuster that was in -- I'm from Roosevelt, New York, but there was one in Freeport, New York that was less than a mile away. And one of the cool things is that every once in a while you bump into somebody that you knew personally that's also there just renting a movie or doing whatever in Blockbuster.
There's that human to human thing that's very unique to a brain that everybody's familiar with that you don't get from a streaming service. So it was also just to the motivation just to -- there's an opportunity here to have fun to poke and laugh and not take ourselves too seriously, speaking for Blockbuster and also not do anything that's malicious or to kind of be disrespectful towards the brand of Netflix, but also just to poke a little bit of fun. We still have humans and you can come and talk to us kind of vibe.
Camden Bernatz (00:09:15) - Excellent. Were you involved in that, that line until the bitter end? Do you know how that came about? Can you give us a little behind the scenes and where that line, how that developed?
AO Baker (00:09:24) - Sure. That was the Super Bowl campaign, I'm not sure if anybody saw the commercial. So the general idea behind the line first, until the bitter end is like we mentioned earlier, people have been writing Blockbuster off for years, like they've been writing the obituary for the brand Blockbuster for a long time, but they're still here. So there was a joke in there that by the time the apocalypse happens and everything on earth is burned down, there are only going to be two things left. You haven't been able to kill Blockbuster and you also haven't been able to kill cockroaches. Hundreds of years from now, thousands of years from now, there's only going to be cockroaches and Blockbuster left and this Blockbuster is still going to be serving until the bitter end.
That's kind of the science behind the line and yeah, like there was an opportunity to do something really clever. We did a few teasers as far as like something big is coming and there were little, the team actually flew out to the store and shot some of that at the Bend Blockbuster store. But so, yeah, like, the “until the bitter end” basically came from that idea, like, once everything is over this store is going to be able to still be here and serve because you haven't been able to get rid of us yet.
Camden Bernatz (00:10:41) - I like that. So, speaking about the team, how many people were involved in this? Can you talk about kind of some of the roles and who you worked with? Were you the only copywriter or how did that work?
AO Baker (00:10:51) - For the most recent campaign?
Camden Bernatz (00:10:52) - Yeah, sorry. The most recent one.
AO Baker (00:10:54) - Small team. So Atlantic is a small agency. At the time, the team, the core team that worked on this project was really five people. So there was myself as the copywriter. Jess, Jessica was the art director. So she was my partner on this. She actually designed all of those three pieces that you mentioned earlier and then the two co-creative executive creative officers and founders of Atlantic, Marco Pupo and João Coutinho and then our managing director who holds everything together, Suzanne Barbosa, that was the core team.
Suzie was really the point person that had a lot of the communication between the brand and specifically Sandy who was the person that's in the, we still have DVDs and humans spot, like that's her. She's the one that actually runs the store. So, Suzie had a lot of just one on one contact with her and making sure that they were on board with the ideas that we were putting together and what they wanted to do when they wanted to put certain things out into the public. But yeah, that was really the team, that was the core team. We got briefed back in, I want to say like the end of May, top of June, something like that. Then it was really Jess and myself that would go off and just spitball and come up with different things. What can we do? What's going to be funny? What's on brand? What's on brief? What's on tone? Yeah, so it was really, really small core team about five of us all together that work with Blockbuster.
Camden Bernatz (00:12:21) - Great. And that's a great example of the importance of when possible having a long runway to work with and not being like, oh wait, I think next week at Netflix and DVDs and trying to scramble like, but look ahead and be prepared and have that brief.
AO Baker (00:12:35) - Yeah, it was really important, because like, although this was by comparison, a pretty simple campaign, this wasn't like this wasn't even the Super Bowl campaign that we did for them earlier in the year. This was much simpler. But with that being said, like you still want to just put the best, most well thought out work out. So this wasn't like a rush job. Like we spent quite a bit of time. Like I have just documents and documents of lines and ideas that we'll never see the light of day because we went with what we felt were the three best, the three best pieces that we can put out and they connected.
Camden Bernatz (00:13:12) - Hey, if they want to see the light of day now, you want to give us some of those lines, we can put them out there. But on a serious note, was there any other direction maybe that got left on the table or something that was kind of a different move that was considered or was this kind of the main direction the whole time that you guys felt strongly about?
AO Baker (00:13:27) - No, we definitely like -- the good thing about this is like other than lines and just different executions that might not have made it, this was the general idea that we wanted to go in and we stayed pretty true to that. Again, like we just knew that this was an opportunity to have fun and poke a little fun. So we kind of, we didn't really veer off, off the path in that sense. We knew we wanted to do social, because like Instagram is obviously their biggest audience. There was still some momentum and people sharing from the earlier work. We also had won, the agency itself won a couple of like Cannes Lions awards for some of that work. So there was, there was a good bit of momentum that we wanted to capitalize on.
But in general, like the idea was always we wanted September 29th, we know this is going out, we know that we want to post all three of these pieces that day just to capitalize on the conversation. And there were a couple of media outlets that picked it up because of that.
Camden Bernatz (00:14:27) - Awesome. Yeah, that line “till the bitter end”, it's great for a lot of reasons, but the fact that it has legs to keep being applied in different ways, like it works as the Super Bowl commercial, right? And this is a perfect extension of that. Like again, this is happening with this company, but we're still here, still doing it. It's got lots of different iterations you can do built around that same line. I like that. Was there any like internally as you're working on this? Was there any, like, sticking points or any conflict or disagreement or was there anything that was a hurdle to get over where people like, no, we can't do this or we should do this instead or was it all pretty smooth going through?
AO Baker (00:15:05) - This was the smoothest piece of work.
Camden Bernatz (00:15:08) - We want drama AO! Just kidding.
AO Baker (00:15:11) - No, this, this was pretty easy. This was like, this was very fun because there were just so many, you know, ideas and lines that I think the hardest thing is because you're writing all day and you're just locked into the work or at least speaking for myself. For me to actually laugh out loud is something that I just wrote is like, all right, maybe we should go with that. That was like the measuring point for me was like, is this actually funny? If I don't really laugh then maybe it is a good line but not necessarily the one we should use.
But no, like this was pretty, this was pretty easy. Fortunately, like Sandy and the whole team over at Blockbuster, they're really easy to work with. They're open to suggestions. There have been horror stories, I'm sure everybody in advertising can talk about just horror stories from working with different clients where they're not willing to do much or they want to change things or at the last minute they want to change things or, yeah, this idea might have been cool, but you've kind of watered it down or legal gets involved. There's so many different ways that a really cool idea is less cool by the time it comes out. But that was not an issue whatsoever with Blockbuster.
Camden Bernatz (00:16:17) - Good, good. On your team and, and the way this came about, you talked like you were briefed and stuff before, did your team internally put that together or does the client kind of hand you a brief? What, what's that process like when working with Blockbuster?
AO Baker (00:16:34) - Yeah. Suzie, Marco and João sat down and put that together. So our two creative officers and managing director, they came up with the brief. It was simple, like we wanted to make sure like, you know, we kept the date in mind. We kept the fact that they were a challenger brand. We wanted to just have -- so the three of them really put that together and they briefed us and we sat with that for a bit. I'm pretty sure that they had conversations with Sandy like, all right, is this something that you want to do you feel comfortable with? But the three of them put that together. We've had much bigger projects where there's been strategists involved and that wasn't the case for this one. This was completely internal.
Camden Bernatz (00:17:13) - Got you. How does it work? I know this is kind of an open ended question, but like you've mentioned, you have an art director that you work with and you partnered up with. How does that with something like this when it's a big well-known brand, but one location that has places you would take like photography and things like that. How does the balance work? How does that relationship work with you and the other side of the creative when it comes to like, okay, we have the brief. Did you come up with writing a bunch of words first and then they think about how they can compare it visually or do they pitch some ideas or?
AO Baker (00:17:45) - It was both, it was totally collaborative because like for instance, the screensaver idea that has to be built off of a visual first. Like you have this idea of like, yeah, I remember the DVDs and the DVD players rather and what that used to look like. Okay, what makes sense word wise, copy wise to complement that. But then there's something like just we still have DVDs and humans. That line came first and then it was like, all right. Well, it actually makes perfect sense for that to feature Sandy because she is the human that you're going to see when you go to the store. It was a bit of both totally collaborative as far as like what would come first? Chicken or egg, copy or, or art direction.
Camden Bernatz (00:18:23) - Good. Yeah. Collaboration, that's how it should work, I think. Right? And there's sometimes I and talking to people I found there's kind of a different process. Sometimes they have a more, this person starts it, this person follows it up. But like, I think that's the best way to do it is, yeah, ideas can come from anywhere and then apply your skills in a way that makes it the best it can be. Right?
AO Baker (00:18:40) - Yeah, there've been, there've been other projects where like maybe I'll go off or we'll kind of all go off on our separate corners and concept and it's really just concept first without any thought as far as what this is going to look like first. We have to make sure like this is very thought out, it's insightful. It has like a very strong idea and then we can kind of figure out what the execution is going to be and what it's going to look like. But this one like a lot of these ideas we kind of just sat at the table together and brainstormed.
Camden Bernatz (00:19:09) - Great. I'll ask you from a high level now, sit back and look at how this campaign came to be, what happened, where it's been since? Or how it's been covered since and stuff like that looking at it from a 30,000 foot view? Is there any like insights or takeaways or maybe people who are coming up in the industry? Anything that you would point to as being a reason for its success or something maybe you thought that could be done better or any inside or takeaway you have looking back on it? And again, I know it's a very like ambiguous question. But yeah.
AO Baker (00:19:37) - No, I think the coolest thing about Blockbuster is like if you're following Blockbuster, they have about, I don't know, 80,000 or so followers on Instagram. So it's a pretty healthy amount of people. But if you're following Blockbuster, you probably relate on an emotional level to the brand because again, it's not like a brand that is built off of innovation or built on being an industry leader at this point in 2023. So I think the biggest thing to pull from this as far as like why I think it resonated with people because again, this was very simple, this was something that spoke so directly to those 80,000 people that follow the brand. If you're following it, you probably grew up with, with one like I did. Not too far from the house you remember Friday nights, you might have gone out with your family or friends. We're going to pick a couple of movies and we're going to bring them back in a couple of days. Or you rented video games. This is the first time a lot of people –
I remember what Blockbuster smells like. Like you walk in the store and there's this weird combination of popcorn candy, dust, carpet, carpet, cleaner, plastic, all kind of, this weird gumbo but it works. But it's so –
Camden Bernatz (00:20:55) - The smell of Friday night.
AO Baker (00:20:56) - Exactly. Yeah, that's about as peak as Friday Night gets right there. Right? So like, I think the people that are tuned in to Blockbuster and follow the account, they relate to it on that same level. Like I remember this, this is such a big part of my childhood is the same way people feel about like Toys ‘R Us or anything that was part of your formative years. So I think like the takeaway there is like if you people pay attention and buy things and connect to brands because of emotion and not thought, you know what I mean? Like you feel something and then that will cause you to then go and make a purchase or decide to click this link or share this post with somebody that you know because you think they're going to feel something from it also. So that's the thing, like, really tap into like an emotion and a feeling and something that resonates on a very human level with somebody. Then once you kind of have them there, you can give them some information if you want to do that or take them on whatever the ride or the story is. But if they don't feel anything, nothing is going to work. I don't care how clever the copy is or how good the art looks. None of that matters if it doesn't connect emotionally to the person on the other end of that ad.
Camden Bernatz (00:22:07) - That's some good wisdom right there. Facts. I think that's great insight. It makes me think about how the best creative comes from a well-established brand. Like if you and your team and Blockbuster, the client hadn't figured out like, what do we sound like? What's our tone? What's our personality? What do we stand on now that we're a different company than we were all that brand strategy stuff, then something like the situation with Netflix would not be as clearly identifiable what you should do. Like what do we do about this? And you don't want to sound desperate or be like, who are these guys? Why are they involved in conversation? But by understanding what the brand is and how we want to come across, then the question is, okay, so what could that sound like? What could that look like? And that's where it's still, I'm not saying it's easy to do creative, but it's easier when you have that good brand strategy in place.
AO Baker (00:22:57) - It's kind of like a buddy that you're comfortable with making jokes about each other. Like just you can loosen up and yeah, we'll throw a little jab back and forth, no harm, no foul. That's kind of like that's the spirit of what this campaign was like. Let's take some lighthearted jabs and that's where Blockbuster is. This is like a friend that you've known since the ‘80s. We've been around, we're familiar with one another. Let's have some fun. I think that was the main thing. Like people again reacted emotion or felt something on an emotional level. But also this was fun. Like you can go in and look in some of the comments, there've been people, I think every post that Blockbuster puts up there's always going to be people like, oh, are you coming back? Are you doing this? What are you doing? So there are people that are so invested in this brand and I think if they were ever to make an announcement about something, people are going to come along for that ride. There's so much equity in that brand.
Camden Bernatz (00:23:54) - Isn't that kind of funny how, like we, as a society picked Netflix over them essentially. Right. We all kind of transitioned and that's why the company had to, like, die down to what it is now. But yet we're like, don't disappear though. We still, like, love you, the nostalgic aspect. Like, people don't want to go rent DVDs physically necessarily, but they don't want it to disappear entirely. And so it's like, it's weird situation where, yeah, they don't get to be the size of the company they used to be, but they almost have more love as a from a brand perspective now than they ever did because they're the last holdout. And there's that piece of nostalgia like you mentioned and it becomes kind of the underdog story and –
AO Baker (00:24:28) - They also play like a really cool role like a lot of these small shops in general. There are people like I mentioned earlier that like the quality of what -- it's the same way that people listen to vinyl, right? There's a warmer feel or there's a texture that you're not going to get from a streaming service. There's also movies in Blockbuster's case that I'm sure you're going to be able to find in the store that aren't going to be available on a streaming service. I think it plays a role in that sense because it's kind of like a little bridge to something that you're not going to be able to get. You see all the time, like Netflix and a lot of these other streaming services, they cycle these movies on and off. So if you don't catch it within that window, you're not going to be able to see that until whenever the agreement is to put it back up, if it comes back up. Versus if they have a DVD and it's in the store and it's available, you can go in there at any time and grab it.
So I think there's still a role aside even aside from nostalgia, a very practical role that I think for specific people for that niche of either I collect or I'm looking for something that I can't find. Maybe I can find it here. There's a role that Blockbuster plays for that reason also specific to that area in Bend, Oregon too.
Camden Bernatz (00:25:47) - Yeah, that campaign probably even hit differently for that specific community because it's like that hits the store down the street and so it's even more popular for them to keep them to keep that local love. Yeah, it's a good point. One thing that I also think that you did very well with your copywriting even beyond this campaign you mentioned, like the Super Bowl and stuff is the mixing in of like a healthy amount of self-awareness. Like the fact that Blockbuster knows they're not at the peak they used to be, they know that Netflix is way bigger. They can't actually compete on a business revenue basis with Netflix, but they had that you wrote them that endearing message of like, till the better end and like we're still standing for these things like, human interaction and like the classic formats that you love and things like that and that self-awareness, different brands do that. It's taken better than people trying to come across as something that they're not, right? And so you did a good job of leaning into that.
Yeah, I'm speaking for everyone in the world. My perception is everyone seemed to have received that in a positive way where it's like, yeah, yeah, yes, you can kind of poke, it's almost poking fun at yourself a little bit, right?
AO Baker (00:26:59) - Yeah, low self-deprecating humor. Yeah, I mean I mean, just speaking very broadly to disarm somebody is to poke fun at yourself. We all have flaws and there's things that I laugh about myself every day. So you can't ever take yourself too seriously and I think with brands also, like, yeah, you want to do serious business in a sense, like you want to make sure all the T’s and I's and all of that but the brand itself, like we know we're the underdog here. So let's have fun. This is a perfect opportunity to punch up. It would look a different way if you have these behemoth corporations that then it becomes like kind of mean spirited where you're stomping out your competition kind of thing. There's a way to kind of galvanize your fan base there or the people that really believe in your brand, now they want to help to uplift you, they want to support you. They want to, hey man, like I don't want to see you go away. So yeah, let's all rally behind you and I'm going to buy a T-shirt, just my 1999 is going to go towards something that can help this brand out, this store out.
So yeah, like to not take yourself too seriously and they were very open about that or very open to that idea. It's like we know the position that we're in, we know who we are, we know what we represent. Let's have some fun.
Camden Bernatz (00:28:24) - Good advice for advertising and for life. Don't take yourself too seriously. Well, thank you again for being on. As you continue with your career, is there anything that you'd like to promote or anything that specific project we should be on the lookout for coming through you?
AO Baker (00:28:39) - Yeah, so my personal website is aobaker.com is some of the work that I've done there. Then atlantic-newyork.com is where you can find the advertising agency. We have something, I'm not sure what I can and can't talk about, but there are some things that are being worked on and a lot of fun things. So, yeah just stay tuned, we're all on all social at Atlantic New York as well. And all my socials are all at I am AO Baker. So, yeah, just stay tuned in, stay tapped in and it's going to be we're at the tail end of the year. So, there's going to be a lot of fun happening.
Camden Bernatz (00:29:15) - Oh yeah, what's the best way to get in touch with you? If anybody wants to reach out and contact you. Is it social media or that website?
AO Baker (00:29:21) - Yeah, you can either way like my DMs are open so you can hit me there. You can also like there's a Contact Form on my, on my website. So either way, definitely reach out and if anybody wants to have a conversation about whatever, hit me up. But yeah, social media is probably the best way.
Camden Bernatz (00:29:37) - Great. Well, thank you again very much for being on. Well, I'll definitely stay tuned and follow to see what you're up to. And thanks for the listeners this episode. We hope that this isn't your first one. Hopefully you like the show and if that's the case, then you can leave us a review. We appreciate that. Subscribe, so you're notified for upcoming episodes. We'll have more insights and stories and interesting people like AO to join us and thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
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