Ioan (00:02): Whisper it. The 2024 might be kind of maybe promising the economic outlook seems encouraging, or at least it seems encouraging compared to the last five years. There's going to be inflation, sure, but not as much. Inflation. Wage growth might actually outgrow inflation and that means more money in people's pockets and that usually means people are more likely to give. There seems to be a cautious optimism about 2024. So I thought I'd do a little research write about that optimism and something funny happened, no one in the sector really talks about fundraising during the good times. Google fundraising during a crisis and you'll find tonnes of articles, podcasts, webinars, you'll find tips, tricks, guidance, checklists, toolkits and the rest of it. We've done a lot of that ourselves. The search for fundraising during prosperity and there's nothing, in fact it comes up with articles about recession. So the content team thought. In this podcast we prepare listeners for the years ahead. We practise optimism ourselves, hope for the best, and talk about the bright future of fundraising.

(01:07): That was the intro and I'm going to touch a tiny bit on the economy before we start. So just looking at, I think it's worth mentioning first that the future is unwritten and the economy. While there is some cautious optimism as we've seen in the last few months, it's hardly booming and it's not likely to boom. GDP growth will be minimal, probably lagging behind the US and the EU, but still growing albeit slowly. But the key point for fundraising is there's likely to be a boost disposable income of around 2.5%. According to recent analysis from Goldman Sachs and headline, inflation's going to fall quite substantially according to the OBR, which is why we saw a little bit more economic freedom in the recent budget with Jeremy Hunt giving tax breaks for the first time in a long time. So in recent months, the UK economy has also surprised us. It's actually done better than expectations in some ways, and so it's proved quite resilient. So I think the renewed optimism is there, but I think just for, it's obviously worth practising a lot of caution because it's quite precarious situation still, but hopefully 2024 be a positive. So we'll start with talking about where we're currently at and how fundraising's likely to change in the next year and then we'll look a bit forward and see what's happening in the years to come. I'll go to Josie.

Josie (02:25): So I think changes we're likely to see, or that we're starting to see now is obviously generative AI is already having a massive impact. So I think we're likely to see just more of that. So for example, in our executive panel at our digital fundraising day, we had a speaker from Alzheimer's Research UK who said they're using generative AI to simplify long pieces of research to be used in their content and social posts and helping marketing through demographic information and engagement patterns and also for fundraising, bit of pitch writing and for producing engaging internal presentations. So that's a really helpful kind of gauge on how charities might already be using it. But in that event, they also spoke about how to put things in place to make using AI ethical and making sure you work with tools you trust and being careful about how you use personally identifiable information, which obviously is very important in fundraising. Yeah, so hopefully that's what we'll see going into 2024.

(03:49): And another thing is about using social media. Hopefully I think there might be more of a shift towards building more of a committed community rather than just focusing on fundraising. So giving Tuesday in 2022 found that people are more likely to donate money as part of a broad personal commitment to charity. So as well, there was a report by Hootsuite that said that kind of advised charities to listen as well as talk. So using things like q and a features and polls and try and build that commitment from the whole audience as well as using it for fundraising. So I think those might be some changes we start to see

Ioan (04:44): On social media. Laura, do you have anything on that?

Laura (04:47): No, it wasn't what I was going to say at all, but I was going to say that it's been such a period of trial and error with a lot of crisis and a lot of firefighting that I think that it puts charities in a good stead now to be prepared for prosperity in a way because they're much more adaptable. They digital donations have obviously become much a much bigger thing since 2020, but it now means that people are familiar with those strategies. So whether it's having online events or if it's

(05:27): Donation platforms, different online donation platforms doing that in the street. I see most charity people, street fundraisers, they have the little contactless platforms, which I don't think were as common a while ago. So I think basically a lot of the work has been done and I think now it's about consolidating that groundwork to be able to move forward. So we've gone through the trial and error period of the last few years and now it's just working and working out which are the best strategies that's refining. I think we're in the refining period hopefully. And yeah, and that does mean social media. I think the building, the committed community, so doubling down on what is working and who your audiences are, not being on every platform just for the sake of it, moving away from platforms that don't align with your values or don't align with your audience as well. And choosing the specific ones, refining and building down, consolidating your good channels and getting rid of the ones that don't work. And I think there's going to be a lot more of that.

Ioan (06:29): Yeah, I think a lot of the consolidation's a really interesting point in that if there's prosperity or slightly more prosperity, then you can actually do things that you might not want to do during that time. Exactly. One thing about the crisis period that we had is it's low risk. All businesses do this as well during these, and it's probably not always the right choice to adopt low risk. They don't invest in things. It can often be the wrong choice and it almost is like a managed decline at that point. But when you do have this new economic freedom, you can make choices that you otherwise wouldn't have made. Social media is an interesting one. You mentioned the reputational risk and we talk about X, the collapse of X or Twitter or whatever it's called today. And then the meta's basic failings in recent months and just not really living up to its potential and the rise of these new authentic socials that could be really interesting in the last year, I don't think many charities are going to take that jump.

(07:27): They're not going to go, okay, I'm going to drop Twitter because I dunno what's going on with that place. I'm going to not bother with Facebook anymore and I'm going to go to BeReal and put a lot of money towards that. I think in a time of prosperity, and this is what I think is interesting about the absence of advice from the sector, is that actually these decisions are as difficult as the ones during a crisis because the stakes are potentially lower, but you can have that freedom to make those decisions and they're interesting. So I think I would say social media, I hope they move towards those programmes. I don't hope one way the other, I think they should aim to make those jumps and take those risks and accept not just manage the decline of old platforms for the sake of fear of going wrong.

(08:14): Instead, you are more likely to go right, I think. And that's the joy of that economic freedom. And similar things like generative AI, I think we mentioned earlier the EU and US were lagging slightly upon them, but economically they're doing very well, particularly US is having a good period now. So there's going to be a lot of AI investment because people do have that money. So there's going to be a lot of that across the board, across the entire economy. And charities I don't think will be any different. I think the thing that we've said over and over again is don't invest blindly and try and find actually what you're going to use it for. Because I still read almost all the time, if you read any article, my own articles, I write on AI and I struggle to tell people exactly how to use it because I personally don't know how you would beyond that basic condensing or summarising of content like Josie mentioned that Alzheimer's were doing, which is a really useful way of doing it, but there's this almost unfounded belief that it can revolutionise your workplace in some way that no one's willing to tell you.

(09:20): And I can tell you that if they can't tell you what it is, then it probably doesn't exist. So I think a clever investment in AI is really warranted, but it might not exist and it might not be the best thing for your charity.

Laura (09:33): Yeah, exactly. I think that's what I mean about laying the foundations and part of that is a digital strategy. So in your digital strategy list of tools you want to use and the purpose of them, because I think as you said, sometimes if you have a bit, we are not used to having more resources and if you end up in a situation where you have more resources, it can make you a bit more wasteful with them. I think not wasteful, that's the wrong word, but it's charities are so good at being creative on a shoestring. I think when you get a little bit of extra, it can be like, oh, it's just see how that works and invest in that. But actually you still need to do it strategically. You need to be just as strategic as you would be in non prosperous times. So yeah, I think it's good to keep in mind a lot of the stuff that we've learned in crisis and build that groundwork. If you cut corners or just spend money, then you're going to be in worse. You'll end up not in prosperity.

Ioan (10:30): Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think other things like flexible giving for example, it's interesting, we had a podcast about three months ago or something, I might not even be that long ago when we talked about trends in 2024 for fundraising. And I think things like this have changed. I still think some of the things like flexible giving will still exist because ultimately it was something that was almost reactionary to an economic crisis. So people have less money, we needed to give them away to still keep them on the books but reduce what they were able to give, which was a reactionary thing. But at the same time, it makes sense in the long term because the whole point of flexible giving is during economic prosperity they can give more and they can balance out what works for them. The problem with flexible giving as we've mentioned a few times I think, is that there just doesn't seem to be an ease with which to do it.

(11:20): And I said this from even our own perspective, it's not the platforms are particularly good, but if you shop around you'll probably find one that works for you. So do shop around.

(11:31): Should we move on to economic prosperity and how that might change fundraising? So I suppose we're going to be very optimistic ourselves here and just suggest that maybe next year's going to be a boom year and everything exceeds all our expectations and this hopefully will have advice for charities if they are experiencing some joy there. So anyone want to kick us off with ideas on how that might change fundraising, how prosperity might change fundraising? Josie, I'll go to you again.

Josie (12:01): Yeah, so I think the obvious thing would be that it's just a time, I think as you've both kind of already said, is that it's a time to take a step back and look at what you are doing and be more strategic and not be in constant reactive mode. So that includes just looking at internal processes and how they could be more efficient and build resilience for the long term. And that can include looking at where things can be automated, so including possibly AI if you are using it with the ethics in mind. And yeah, I'll also say that a really good article we've got on our website is an interview with James Elliot, who's the Head of Digital Experience at Dogs Trust, who are in the middle of a digital transformation to which is to adapt to the changing needs of service users and supporters. So yeah, that goes very in depth about how it's working for Dogs Trust and different charities could learn from it.

(13:08): And another thing I would also like to raise about digital fundraising in times of prosperity is that it could also be a time to focus on the inclusivity of your website. So in particular looking at the user journey for donations because there's a thing called the purple pound where people who have disabilities are clicking away due to user journeys being inaccessible. And obviously that's not good because people who have disabilities should be able to support the causes they care about and should be able to engage in any website including charity websites in whatever way they want to. So there's a statistic from the Purple Goat who's a specialist disability marketing agency who says only 3% of the internet is accessible to people with disabilities. And it also says businesses lose approximately 2 billion pounds a month by ignoring the needs of disabled people. I think it's the right thing to do if you have the time. And it also has a business case, which I don't like to raise that, but by not doing it, businesses and other organisations are pushing people away from donations and using your website in the ways you want them to. Hopefully there's a move towards that as well in 2024.

Ioan (14:41): I think the business case for all of this stuff, inclusion, particularly during crisis or prosperity, the business cases is there for all. Yeah,

Laura (15:00): Exactly.

Ioan (15:01): And it's so easily shoved to one side during a crisis and picked up during prosperity, but in both instances there's a business case like you said, and that shouldn't be shied away from. In fact, it should be constantly raised because unfortunately that speaks to people not just the right thing to do. Laura?

Laura (15:22): I also think that it's a really raises a really interesting point about user research because we recently did an interview as part of our digital strategy video series with Okta. We did an interview with an expert in user research and how user research should inform their digital strategy. And it was fascinating because they said the main thing is not to assume anything. So you think you know your donors but you probably don't. So it's a good time to take that moment to get to know them better and look at user journeys, look at what they need from you. And it comes back to Ioan's point earlier as well. Flexible giving was a thing to respond to a crisis, but it's also really convenient now and that will have helped your users feel good about you as well. So I think we can't underestimate the sort of intangible things reputationally and just looking out for your service users is a really good thing to do - the right thing to do.

(16:20): But also looking out for your donors as well. It is the right thing to do, but it also builds, deepens your relationship with those donors and that's going to pay dividends in times of prosperity. So I think it's about doing user research, looking at the convenience you put in place and not getting rid of that. And also there's other stuff like having donation stations. I love that phrase! At times of prosperity, people are more likely to be able to walk past that and be like, I can donate today. I do have an extra five. So make sure you in those positions at all times innovate, I think is key at this point.

Ioan (17:05): Yeah, I think that's all true. And I think it's like the end of short-termism really looking at returning to strategy. I think one thing we talked about constantly, I'm constantly comparing us with the crisis conversations we have, but it was always that everyone abandons their strategy, everyone abandons, ESG and EDI. And they did make all these decisions, which you can understand in context, but we were always kind of warning against. And I think it's easy to sell those things during economic prosperity. I mean stuff like recruiting more people. If people go well, that makes sense. Well, it made sense before as well, but it's hard to sell it to them - looking for more space for volunteers that made sense before, but it was hard to sell it to them. The big one that is a direct response from economic prosperity would be working with more corporate partnerships because you're likely to get more public funding because the public has more funds.

(18:05): But I mean that's not as simple as that, but in the long term maybe. But corporate funding, when corporations are doing well, they tend to give more because they can and they want to look good typically, but maybe they're really just lovely people. But I think on both instances it's about using that general sway of prosperity to try and form those relationships in the long term as well so that you're just generating more corporate funding. So grant funding becomes more important, corporate funding becomes more important, and all these kind of big ticket items actually become more important. So I think it's, again, streamlining different fundraising streams I think is vital. Just not thinking on that simplistic term, thinking about the other ways you can do it.

Laura (18:52): Fundraising events too are going to be, if people have more disposable income or more time they're going to give, they're going to be more willing to get into fundraising events and give back in that way. And less worried about fundraising goals as well because their families will also be able to give to them. So yeah, I think fundraising events will boom again, I think they already bounced back quite a lot from the pandemic, but we've seen different ways of doing them. Now we can have virtual events as well as and hybrid events and physical events, but I just think they're going to continue to boom. There's such a vital fundraising stream for charities that I can't imagine prosperity having a very bad, I think they'll have a very, very good effect on them.

Ioan (19:35): And I think it's with the strategy stuff that it's including all this in your strategy, obviously you're not going to do it all. Don't try and do it all that'll be able to stay. But with your strategy, I think there's four main strategies that are taken. There's low risk, and that's doing more of the same with the existing donors you have. And that's interestingly what I think's been happening the majority of the last five years really is people are trying to continue those relationships, make sure they use the same and then they deviate during covid by necessity obviously, but they found that's kind of the mid risk tactic of finding new fundraising techniques but still applying to your existing donors. Then there's a similarly mid risk strategy of an existing technique, but finding new donors and then the highest risk, which is probably the one that will occur more often in times of prosperity that hasn't occurred a lot in the last five years is adopting new techniques and approaching new donors.

(20:34): That's when we talk about stuff like gaming for good and it's had that uptick, that's what that is. They've taken a fundraising strategy that's a high risk and they've aimed at completely new people. When you do that you need to make sure you have that justified, I think. So look at your data, look at your user research because the big risk of that is that you go, you do something new, you approach new people, they don't care about the thing you're doing and they don't care about you that much. So that's the key. But I think establishing a strategy is basically the main thing to make sure you're doing.

(21:09): Cool. Let's move on. We can chat a little bit about what's new or what will be new in fundraising. So at this point I want to talk about new tech tools, new streams, new fundraising streams, new initiatives, new platforms. I mean, this is where we can go back, obviously we'll go back to generative AI and we can talk about that, but I think social platforms, if we look at Snap or BeReal threads and Blue Sky is interesting, but I think one of the things that I've practised caution around those new fundraising streams in the future is that the actual fundraising element is not, Facebook had Facebook fundraising, which was a really effective way to raise money. The others don't have as seamless operations when it comes to actually raising money. We're going to see, I mean we've seen the one thing we mentioned in a previous podcast is there's a lesson over the past few years that don't jump on the legs as fad.

(22:00): So new tech might not be the best idea. This is one that could apply to a certain degree with generative AI because we saw, for example, NFTs being ranting and raved about, we saw blockchain and blockchain had a lot of potential, a lot of merit, but at the same time it just didn't take off. And I think it's largely because people found it still quite confusing. Crypto. I mean crypto was all the rage we were telling everyone to, and I'm not sure it's really taken off in the same way though. There is still a lot of potential there. AI, I think the caution, the caution is still there. We mentioned earlier, but people essentially should just approach it with a bit more caution and before they jump right in, I think authenticity and fundraising, I think Josie mentioned this earlier, that's going to be the future will be authentic because it's a backlash against the inauthenticity of the present.

(22:55): That sounds a bit too strong, but I think in the last few years people have got a bit fed up of filters and they've got a bit fed up of the washing of reality in various ways. And I think charities played a part in that because they jump on trends and everyone does, but that's not what people are after, I don't think anymore. We might see the return of a high streets as well. I think that's a new stream that could be interesting. It's like the authenticity of a charity shop again. But one thing that we learn every year when we do Secret Santa is there is usually the really prosperous charities usually create an online shop as well, and you can get bargains there. So yeah, you should look that. Anyway. Virtual events, as Laura said, I think are going to be huge, but equally I think they're just a tag on to a certain degree, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but make your event virtual, why wouldn't you?

(23:47): And the tech is becoming so seamless now that we have people just setting up laptops and making an event virtual. And at a certain point it's a question of it's a minimal, minimal cost and all you need is someone to pop in with a laptop. I think marketing, investing in marketing, I think Google Ads is a place where you can invest a quite seamless and simple way of generating money and generating revenue if you invest in it and bringing people to your website. And they have obviously, what's the campaign? They have Google ads for charities, I forget what it's called. Ad grants. Ad grants. That's it - why I said that in your accent?! Ad grants, improving email investing. This is one of the things that I think is really important as well. Investing in loads of platforms on the things you do well already. So for example, you're sending out emails, you are doing all these, you are doing, you're producing content, invest in email marketing, invest in a better consumer. I should know, this is my content marketing content cms, what is it? Content

Laura (24:55): Management. System content management. You work with one every day,

Ioan (25:01): This is my job. And then stuff like AI, using AI for predictive analysis, donor segmentation and stuff like that. I think the joy of AI is its ability to work with huge amounts of data. So use it for that, what it's built and apply that. Yeah. Anyone got stuff to add to that?

Josie (25:24): Yeah, I would say about the fundraising events I also thought that it would be more popular during times of prosperity, but I also think as well as using the virtual opportunity of the low cost of virtual events, I also think small and local events will also come from the want for authenticity. And I also think events like that can, in the previous episode about fundraising, fundraising in 2024, you spoke about how things like lotteries can give someone something back in return for their donation. I think in-person events can be a really good opportunity for that, especially local ones for small charities. That could be a really nice way of building a community, raising money and giving people something back in return for their donation. Also about the social media in terms of, there's a lot of movement in terms of where people are going doing their social engagement. I think it will still be about understanding the context of the platform and what the conventions are. And obviously as there's a lot of change in social platforms, I think it just might involve some relearning. And when there's new platforms, I feel like the culture and conventions can be a bit changeable. So it's whether you want to jump on a new platform while that's happening and create a space for yourself or whether you want to wait. So I think that choice will be interesting for charities in the next year.

(27:09): And also using virtual reality. I'll also shout out another interview on our website with Ecological Continuity Trust, who is a small charity using VR for learning to help people understand the work they do about long-term ecological experiments, which also contributes to their fundraising. So that's something that other small charities could be doing. It's quite an interesting way to engage people in the work you're doing.

Ioan (27:49): Yeah. Amazing. Laura, do you have anything on to top VR?

Laura (27:55): No, I think that's all I, you've covered it all. A, I would say that AI, I think I've said this several times on the podcast, but there is a donation platform that is using AI to help people create their own fundraising pages. So if they sign up to an event, it helps them auto-create stuff. And I think that's a really good example of how to use AI in a way that is supporting what you're already doing. So it's not about replacing, it's about supporting. I also think that, I think the idea of charities, there was a really interesting finding in the most recent pulse report from Enthuse, I think it's the Autumn Pulse report. And it was about how many people are interested in charities as a service, as a subscription service. And I think that's a really interesting point and it's very similar to the lotteries. And so I think a lot of it's innovation that's going to come, but it's building on what we already have basically.

Ioan (28:58): Think what's carriers as a service? What is that?

Laura (29:00): I actually don't know. No, I imagine it's sort of like you get when you sponsor something.

Ioan (29:08): Like you get something back essentially more than just the impact essentially.

Laura (29:14): I looked up a lot of animal sponsorships, it's Christmas, what can I say? And the charities that run them, they send you a quarterly letter or something like that. And I think it's very similar to that. You get a little, it's almost comparable. And when you donate blood and you get your little card every time you do, it's so many times a cookie as well. Yeah, and the cookie crucially. Well

Ioan (29:37): That's also to bring up your blood sugar, but it's the only I've ever done it.

Laura (29:42): It wouldn't go am miss when I've donated to charities. I would love a cookie,

Ioan (29:46): Give me a cookie as a service. But also I think it's really important because it kind of chimes onto something that has shifted a little bit, which is what you get for your donation. And I remember blockchain, we mentioned it was kind of not much going on with blockchain, but one thing blockchain promised is, and I don't dunno whether it really succeeded here, but it used to say that it could show you everything your money

Laura (30:10): Was spent

Ioan (30:11): Complete transparency around. So if you spent 10 pounds on a charity, maybe it would show you that two pounds went to recruitment or to, sorry, overheads for the charity and six pounds went directly to service users. And the joy of that was that it was almost like you could say, actually, I don't want you spending this money on that. And so I think there's something to that and says that charities could use that to make an appeal to the donor. So to say, I'm not just asking for money, I'm asking for money in return for this transparency. Or in your example, a letter, is it a letter from the animal?

Laura (30:50): Yeah, from the dogs ideally.

Ioan (30:54): I mean there was cuddly toys famously, right? Yeah. We sponsored a gorilla. My mum sponsored like six cuddly toys now, six animals around the house. But she can go visit them if she wants to. I dunno if they thank her or...

Laura (31:11): Of course they would!

Ioan (31:13): Thank you.

Laura (31:15): But I think that's a really important point though, that it doesn't have to be something physical or a visit to see a gorilla. It could be a very meaningful Thank you, this is what your money has funded. That's because part of the donation process is feeling a reward. It's rewarding in itself, isn't it? Giving, it should be a very altruistic thing. You're donating to a charity support, but without a meaningful thank you. I think it can sometimes that you are shouting into the void or donating into the void, but actually a meaningful thank you can include a message from a beneficiary. This is how many things we've funded since you donated and that comes, and you can do that before the donation process as well. You see a lot of it at Christmas, I think being like 10 pounds gives this to a person.

Ioan (32:09): It's the Christmas meal, isn't it? Yeah,

Laura (32:11): Exactly.

Ioan (32:12): It generates huge, huge income for Crisis and Shelter and others because the play on the greed of Christmas as it were, everyone sits around has eight different meats. And then you say this and you feel like that's something that people universally deserve in a sense. For some reason, we all think that on one day of the year, everyone deserves an over the top meal. No, but I mean that's the weird thing. If you made the same ploy on mid-June and say roast with all the drummings, people wouldn't have that same reaction. So it's playing on an emotional

Laura (32:56): Yeah

Ioan (32:57): Oddity. I think

Laura (32:58): What's interesting is it also is about flexibility. So donor, the donation stations I mentioned, there's one that I know called Dona, they have it. So you can put different amounts in for different things that it would do. So it might be one roast dinner or it might be a bed, or it could be a year's worth of this, but it still gives donors that flexibility, but it gives them something tangible to know that that money has gone to. I think this is a good thing to, again, it's about consolidation, isn't it? And doing stuff like that and making things obvious to donors and what they want, just tailoring everything to what they want and then do that in crisis. But especially do that in prosperity because we're used to online experiences. We want good ones. And that extends to charities, doesn't it? Does that make sense?

Josie (33:48): I think it's about including donors in the process. I think that also comes back to the idea of building a community and people who feel really committed to what you're doing. And that can also extend beyond donations. So giving them the opportunity to volunteer, giving them in your communications, showing what's going on behind the scenes and all the different ways you are working for your course, because that just brings people in and helps people understand and become as invested in the course as you are as well.

Laura (34:17): That's such a good point.

Ioan (34:19): Yeah, it also harks back to almost everything we've said, which is very rounded and complete. And it's weird because we're coming to the end of our time, but no, I mean, it's stuff like authenticity we've been talking about throughout, and I think it's been a sort of buzzword in the last year, but we haven't seen it realised as much as you'd imagine. But you talked about ar VR, talk about AI. AI takes you somewhere else, but the authenticity of AR and VR were used for authentic means. I mean, St. Ormond Street Hospital, I believe used to give children an example of what it would be like living there, showing them how welcome they would be. And it's almost using tech in a way, whether that's social platforms or whatever you are using to show an authentic experience to show how your charity works behind the scenes like Josie just said, and show all these things so that people are involved in it. So using tech to bring them closer, whereas I feel like some tech excludes, it takes people further away from you, whereas I think it's about bringing people closer to what you're doing and demonstrating that. So that hopefully, I think will be the lesson in the years to come. Does anyone have any final points?

Laura (35:26): I think that's a really good final point. I think stick to that.

Ioan (35:29): It was Josie's point, I just reworded it.

Laura (35:32): Well, both of you are excellent.

Ioan (35:34): Thanks. It was originally also kind of your point, but let's forget that.

Laura (35:42): I'm just here for the ride.

Ioan (35:45): Laura doesn't actually work for Charity Digital, we just found her outside and invited her in.

Laura (35:51): I just heard that prosperity was on the horizon. I was like, oh, that sounds fun.

Ioan (35:54): Yeah. Alright, I think that's the end of the podcast. So thanks for joining us and thank you Laura and Josie as ever. And we will see you next time in the new year talking about something. The new year, probably the new year. But yeah. Thanks.

Josie (36:11): Thank you.

Laura (36:12): Bye. Thank you.

Ioan (36:16): We hope you enjoyed this Charity Digital podcast, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed to those of the speakers and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of Charity Digital. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Thanks for listening.