Camden Bernatz (00:00:00) - Welcome to Brands and Campaigns, the stories and people behind clever marketing moves powered by EKR. I'm your host, Camden Bernatz, creative director and head of brand strategy at EKR. And today I'm joined in studio with Corey Ostler, one of the members of our EKR team on the creative team here at EKR. And we are going to talk about the conversation we just had with Josh Bogdan about the Baseball is Something Else Campaign for the MLB Major League Baseball.
But before we dive into that and kind of just share some thoughts and reactions from that conversation and that behind-the-scenes look, let's introduce Corey. So Corey, tell us who you are, how you got the EKR.
Corey Ostler (00:00:43) - Like you said, I'm Corey, I actually came in through the Relic side. So EKR is co-owned by another company called Relic. And so I worked with Relic for seven-ish years before hopping over to the EKR side and been doing more focus on branding specifically as well as web design and campaign development and stuff like that. So it's where I wanted to go for most of the time I was at Relic. So I'm pretty pleased with that shift and just been pumping out the good stuff that we have.
Camden Bernatz (00:01:16) - Yep, we're pleased to have you. Yeah, Corey is vital to creative and design that happens here on the EKR side and the Relic side, like you talked about the combined forces. So I wanted his perspective specifically about this campaign because it's obviously a creative campaign. It's not something that was purely PR or a rebrand, that was something he might not touch as much. But this would be something that he would definitely have worked on if he was at the agency at that time with Josh, who he talked to before.
And so to get some of his input on, what he learned from that conversation or anything that any takeaways and maybe I'll add my two cents here and there for what it's worth probably worth about two cents. So I'll add that much. So thinking about the campaign, baseball is something else and the process that he talked about, Josh was a creative director in that, in his role for that campaign. What do you think the ideal role or relationship is among the different creative teams? Like what is a creative director need to be or to, to come out with a result like this Baseball or Something Else Campaign.
Corey Ostler (00:02:23) - Yeah. In my experience, especially like a creative director if they're actually doing a good job of directing, then they're more almost like a facilitator where they have an angle and they have some insights into that, but they usually, at least in the most successful ones. They listen intently, there's usually like some kind of brainstorming that goes on. But the main quality or skill that makes them very valuable is that they can recognize when you're throwing out ideas and they say, okay, these are the nuggets, the gold nuggets, let's explore that a little deeper. And then it helps kind of sort through a myriad of ideas to like, really distill it down to like the ones that, you know are like because they usually have a little better understanding of like the personality of the client as well as at least the way we do it. Generally, they've sat with it a little bit longer than other creatives. And so, yeah, that's kind of where I've felt the most profound creative ideas have been really recognized by a creative director so you can hone in on what's the wheat from the chaff, as they say.
Camden Bernatz (00:03:32) - I feel like that's so much easier to do when I talked to Josh a bit about this. It's easier to do when you really have your strategy done upfront of why you're even approaching a campaign. If you're just like, hey, it's been a while since we done something let's just refresh our presence out there, that's very ambiguous. It doesn't mean you can't have something good come of that. But I feel like the best campaigns are we understand, why are we even doing this campaign? And what are we trying to address? So, with the Baseball is Something Else Campaign, the MLB had a few things that were happening at the same time. One, they were going to start a new baseball season. Obviously, you want to promote the fact that baseball is coming back. That's something that happens each year.
Also, the fact that there's been a consistent effort lately to kind of refresh, I guess you would say the game for younger audiences, there's been a decline in younger baseball fans and they don't want to die out and have sports disappear. Still very popular, but making sure that it's seen as fresh and exciting while still catering to your long-time and older fans. Then the third thing is in an effort to keep it fresh. There's been some changes to the rules of the game. I am not a baseball fan. I shouldn't off the top of my head recall what those are, but they've done some things like a pitch log, for example, the game has to move faster. I know that's one of them.
And so all those things were coming together. So the baseball had a very, the baseball, meaning Major League Baseball, the MLB had this objective of like we want to announce the seasons coming. We want to tap into younger audiences that build, start building new traditions while reflecting the kind of a classic, tradition, nostalgic feel of people who love the game and have been around for its history. And so, again, that's not so prescriptive that it's pushed you into one box, but they had this specific objective that led itself well to building out those ideas.
Again, easier said than done and acting like it was easy. I wasn't involved in the process myself and I know it took a lot of work, but that's something I think helped made Josh's role as creative director helpful upfront because they knew why they were even coming in the door to work with his agency to get this done. And a question I have for you on that. And something I've been thinking about personally from my own work is what are the necessary ingredients that make a campaign, a campaign? And by that, I mean, there are different executions, right? You might have a billboard, a video, a digital ad, TV commercial, whatever it might be depending on your ad spend. There's lots of different ways you can put a “Campaign” out there. What makes the different creative executions united as a campaign as opposed to just a bunch of random ads? Does that make sense?
Corey Ostler (00:06:20) - Oh, yeah totally. So that, yeah, that's, this is something they really drilled into us. I went to the, I was in the BYU ad program and it's interesting to do that as a designer because they sort of do design peripherally and like they do and like you take design classes from the actual graphic design department, but they really try to teach us the cores of like what makes marketing work in general. And so like for campaigns, they really drilled into like whatever that is, it has to have what they call a universal truth, something that is so true that it resonates with people about whatever it is that you're trying to say so that even if it's going to have something more specific to let's say baseball in this instance, but like cat, like what they did in this campaign, for example, they, it was a hard task, like you said, of taking like a Venn diagram of like overlapping the two audiences of baseball and then saying like, what is like we got to capture that magic in like a line or in some visuals.
And so the other component of that is whatever that universal truth is to articulate it in such a way that it has what's called legs, meaning no matter what format you put it in, the key concept can be communicated, it's not dependent on a specific medium. So like there's some billboards that are like specifically built for billboards where like, oh, they got like legs taken out or like, I've seen a boat through one or something and like, that's a cool billboard idea, but that's not necessarily a campaign because if you see that same thing in like a print ad or something, like, you can put a picture of a boat going through something but doesn't have quite the same impact.
So something that has, yeah, it's just legs and trying to describe what legs are meaning pretty much what I said that like it can every single medium it goes in the core idea is still shining through and no matter what you did with it, that would still be communicated. If you have one of those kind of ideas, then that's a campaign in my opinion, at least.
Camden Bernatz (00:08:16) - Because there are campaigns that do it differently. So for the baseball is something else, that line is kind of the only thing that really connects. I mean, obviously the baseball is the subject, but as far as like the music, the visuals, the artistic style, it's kind of varied. It's just that line or even the message about what makes baseball something else. There's a video that talks about like a record being broken and what led up to that moment. Talks about hot dog and ballpark food. One talks about like the fan experience. Like they're kind of all just different angles, but they're connected with that line, Baseball is Something Else. Whereas there are different campaigns that sometimes the visual style is what makes it consistent to recognizable or maybe there's not one slogan that ties them all together, but the message is directed in the same direction.
So anyways, I'm not asking you or to sit down and solve the complete perfect formula for what a campaign needs to be, but I was just thinking about that and I think your experience and your perspective there was helpful because if it has legs, I guess that's kind of what you know when you have it, right? Like if it's connected, then it's a campaign.
Corey Ostler (00:09:24) - Yeah. Well, like you said, like it can be it is what you said, like it can be other things too, like it can be like a visual style. But like whatever it is, if it's communicating that core message that you're trying to do, however you do that, if it's visual, like a little, I mean, this might be harder in some meetings. Like if you have like a specific audio clip or something, as long as all the formats meet that or you can have a line or you have like a little mark or a brand for that specific campaign, then it can really tie everything together. But it's still like no matter again where you see it, you're still getting like whatever the essence of that is.
One of my favorites, see if I get the exact wording. It was a Disney one called, it's like Dream Big Princess or something like that. I don't remember if it was like little princess or princess, but like it was just like this little word mark that they had on things and then that meant it was kind of this call to empower young girls to obviously they're tying it to their Disney characters and how they have like this hero's journey. But also like saying you can do that too with whatever that is. So they did that on things promoting stuff from like their hotels all the way to like more specific things to like –
Camden Bernatz (00:10:37) - Are adaptable.
Corey Ostler (00:10:38) - Yeah, so like it meant more than one ad, it meant like I said, just a theme, an idea.
Camden Bernatz (00:10:45) - A concept of theme, that makes sense. That's a good example. The crazy thing about this campaign that we're talking about is that Josh mentioned like it was all with the existing footage, they didn't go and shoot stuff after this and some of them aren't even like copywriting base. So like the hot dog one, there was like some text over the screen, but it's just a bunch of different shots put together nice stylistically with the music that is just showing different ballpark food. The one that it's called Overture, there's no audio or no voiceover. Again, it's just music playing and lining up with a bunch of different found footage of that the MLB had ready to go.
And so they couldn't have known an exact shot list that basically the creative execution didn't lead the campaign. It was that idea of baseball and Baseball is Something Else. Well, he mentioned it wasn't the first line we landed on, but where they ended up getting to, it was clearly driven by that idea. That's okay, now that we know what we're going after, how can we then do that creatively? It didn't start with creative and then figure out what is the line that connects all these things, not to say one way or better or the other but in this situation it all came after the fact.
When I asked him, what are some things or anything that you might do differently if you had this opportunity to do again? The thing he mentioned was they kind of we got so excited about the idea, which is a good thing that they would just kind of go rapid fire, give the client a bunch of just different ideas. I think he compared it to like at the arcade when you bring all your tickets to the front to try to get like your prizes and just kind of you see what I can get with this. And he said he maybe would have wanted them to be a little more condensed and organized or I'm paraphrasing of course, to not just throw so many ideas and be a little more focused to be able to sell them better. In your experience, having worked with lots of different campaign or creative projects whether it's making logos or like campaign ideas or things like that did you have any reaction to that? Do you feel like you agree with that or what's your thoughts as far as how many things should you bring to the table for a client when it's just in the ideation phase?
Corey Ostler (00:12:53) - Yeah. And that's, that's actually been something we especially, they care. Like we've been trying to hone in on and like experiment with different ways to do that because it's just human psychology. If you give people a lot of options, then if there's more than like, there's a lot of them, then there's like this weird psychological thing that tells you the problem is I know that I'm going to probably pick the wrong one if there's too many options because I can't pick between them. They're all like, they're so subtly different or the human brain can't handle that many choices. And so it's like, well, against infinite choices and what you're showing me. Like, I know in infinity there's probably something better. And so that can lead to kind of a paralysis of decision making where they're never quite satisfied with exactly what you're doing because like it's true in the ether out there, there's probably a better idea.
Camden Bernatz (00:13:42) - Show me more, show me more.
Corey Ostler (00:13:45) - One thing and really resonating with what he was saying is like, I think he sounds like they experienced a little bit of that pain where it's like we are having tons of ideas, but we're not guiding the client to be able to weigh what's better and not. So I think that's kind of where an agency would come in or like a creative director or an expert saying hey, here's a bunch of ideas, here's we're going to recommend these ones for these reasons. These are all good ideas, any of these could work, but we recommend these because of this, this and this as long as like there's a strategy behind it or there's a story behind it, like giving it meaning that I think at least what I've seen is clients really need. That they resonate with that specific thing.
Like I've experienced that myself when people try to sell me stuff. Like I don't know, like you're supposed to, you know, this stuff. I just know I need something.
Camden Bernatz (00:14:37) - Yeah, if you are listening to this whether you're at an agency or a freelancer or even in house creative team, like if you haven't considered this for yourself, I just would recommend you to consider that the challenge in finding the balance between you need to sell what you think is the best idea but also people want options, that is a hard sometimes paradoxical approach in which people say I want you to feel so confident about something come and sell it to me. But also if it's like you have one idea, well, what else? Like they want that but they don't want that.
And so if you're anybody in any role who sells creative ideas or concepts or work, I don't know the perfect formula. I'm not saying like here's the answer, ta da. But like that is something you need to help consider as you're bringing up your pitches. Like you said, show them enough that they're like, I feel like I can have some input. I have some options. I have some things to consider but have a case for why you're showing what you're showing and it's okay to have your strongest recommendation. This is the best one. Here's why. More than just like I like this I spent the most time on it. Right?
And so anyway, yeah, easier said than done. But that's something that we're learning. I'm learning. It's been a process and it kind of depends on the client a little bit too. Right? Some clients are like, give me your best, give me all in on what the best thing and we'll go from there. Some clients are like, can you give me 20 logo concepts or 20 headlines or whatever.
Corey Ostler (00:16:00) - 20 variations of that one logo just to make sure I was like, okay and again, that's a human psychology thing because like, it's a decision-making thing and like, there's the main thing you're fighting against is the fear of making the wrong decision. Whenever you're making a decision about something that you're not 100% like an expert in it, let's say you go to a car mechanic and he's like, all right, well, we got the medium one, we got this really big one and we got this other one that's it can work but like, it's not here and you're like… Whatever I do, I might be making the wrong decision and so what do you recommend is what I usually say at that point. And then they tell me and then they tell me why I'm okay. Let's do that.
And obviously, this is a little bit different because the client does have some more input or background or stake in it as well and like personal opinion. So there's a balance there and you got to kind of read the room and get the flavor of who you're talking with too because it's weird, it's a personality thing.
Camden Bernatz (00:16:57) - The last thought that I kind of have on the topic, let you have some more is I want to bring it back. Although this was a creative campaign talking about the creative execution process, I want to give a little plug for the importance of brand strategy as well. Now, Josh and his team didn't come up with the MLB’s brand strategy, but having been a well-established brand Major League Baseball, that so much more helpful to know how to lean into that and have a creative execution. The idea we talked about little nuances of the game, the way that like, for example, knowing about the ballpark food experience, the hot dog that everyone has some version of it to know that and to have that be a synonymous like brand touch point with the game made it an easy way to identify that as an execution. That could be a stand-alone video. That's not even the game of baseball, right? But it's the experience of baseball, major league baseball.
So that's a big, huge brand and not every brand as big as MLB. But the takeaway I have there is whether you're working on the brand for a client or you're working on a client that has their already established brand, making sure you understand that brand and it's clear who are we, what makes us distinct? What are we not also? And what are kind of our core essence, our personality? What's our traditions or things like that? Then without that you're just kind of guessing at something that might be cool or catchy or whatever the buzzwords are for good work.
Corey Ostler (00:18:33) - Well, it's like yeah, like, that's the issue with art in general is that it's not a science. So it's not like one plus one equals two. And we know that's a fact with art, it's like I have this, I think it's going to be the best idea and it will resonate with people. Like, ooh, well, I'm not sure about that. So having something to weigh your ideas against and that usually is the brief or the strategy and that's how you can know, like, is this a good idea? Is this something that's going to be on the market? Like, should we be pursuing this? And the way you do it is like, well, how does it weigh against what our goals are and what we've done research of like who the target market is and how they act? That's one huge thing in marketing that, I mean, even if you know this, it's still hard to get past because you can't get outside your own head. But like looking at a piece of thing, like I like it or I don't like it like, well, that does not matter actually, if you're not the target market. If you are the target market, then that matters. But it's not for you is something that we say sometimes like, well, that's great, but it's not for you. It's for these people and are hopeful there's some kind of research or at least insights like this does resonate with this audience and there's a reason why it's here.
So now instead of just saying, I like blue. So I like that one. You can say, oh, that hits the target of the creative strategy and that's how we know that we hit the mark.
Camden Bernatz (00:19:49) - So part of you're doing your job as a creative is helping your client give them that creative or that strategic lens to look through because they’re still the one who makes the final call, they're still the one paying for it. So you can't be like, no, it doesn't matter if you absolutely hate it. It's not for you. They're not going to want to pay for something they absolutely hate. But if you can teach them okay, it's okay. Maybe you subjectively as a person, individual don't like this one. But can you put up this lens and then look through it? Now, does it make sense? If they can see it at that point, then they can sign off on it.
So again, everything we're talking about is easier said than done. But I think that's part of doing our job is not just producing good work but helping provide the lens, so to speak from which to view it. Because then they do make a final decision. We can't just force something. Trust me, it's going to work. Now give us your money now go use it, so challenging. But that’s the game.
Corey Ostler (00:20:36) - That's why, I mean, not every client can afford this play. That's why I was like, I imagine with MLB or bigger market things, they do (Inaudible 0:20:43) like they bring in a focus group of their target market and they like show them a few ideas and they're like, what's doing it. And so now you can have something like to hang your head on. When you don't have that, then you're doing your best. But, again, taking something that's like, can be subjective and knowing what is right or not, there is a way to do that.
Camden Bernatz (00:21:02) - Well done, well said. In general, overall thinking about this campaign, and the different executions that you've looked at after we talked with Josh, any anything at all that stood out to you as a takeaway an insight, a good, a bad anything that like you drew from this experience or this campaign?
Corey Ostler (00:21:20) - Yeah, like, and it took me a while to analyze to figure out what it was that did this. But I feel like they did what at least what I'm seeing it because I actually haven't seen the brief, I heard him talk a little bit about it. But from what I'm seeing it was to capture that, the magic of baseball in like feelings or images without having to explain it or say something. I feel like they really nailed that and they were able to, like you said, with just found footage of like, what is it like to be at a game? What's the experience? Like, why do you go to a baseball game live, for example, as opposed to just watch it on TV? And like, that's what the capture like, that's where that magical found footage comes in.
It's like the TV doesn't usually zoom in on the hot dog guy. But that's there. Before the game, little festivities and all that stuff and, like, being in –
Camden Bernatz (00:22:10) - Most of the clips weren't showing baseball play. There was some of that still, but it was like, even if it was showing players it's like the warm up, them doing some stretches then, like, it was, yeah, the game that happened was not the main thing on display was the experience, right? Yeah. I have a personal like affinity or not affinity, affection is the word I'm trying to say for creative executions that can use little to no words, which is funny. I come from a copywriting background but when you have your core essence, core essence as a term, we use a lot in EKR like that, that intangible feeling or yeah, essence is the best word I can think of. That core essence of a campaign or a brand, that direction, then I love that. If it's so dialed in you can show it without having to even like explicitly say what you're showing. I love that when that happens, right? And it's like, okay, I felt I get the message even though no message was spoken, you gave me a message through creative execution.
This campaign did very well. There was a few little places that they had some different lines and overlays over the video, but for the most part, Baseball is Something Else was kind of the only copy attached with this, but the creative spoke for itself.
Corey Ostler (00:23:20) - Yeah, and this one especially is what I call it an emotional sale because that's what you're selling. Like what is the benefit of baseball? Like, well, this. This experience is the benefit. I can't tell you about it. I have to obviously being there is even better, but like in the best way that's possible with the mediums that we have, I got to show it to you. That taps into something in a person so that's deeper than words. It's like, hey, baseball games have this special cheap deal going on. You can get a season pass for this much. Yeah, like that's cool in our factual brains. Like that's nice. Like if when you tap into someone's like core essence of the person themselves and like you're speaking, like I said, that universal truth, it resonates and so they're like, okay, I get it and I want that.
Camden Bernatz (00:24:05) - Awesome. Yeah, it's like when you feel it, it's hard to scrap some hand, but it's like, oh yeah, that did that. Awesome. Well, thank you for being on today, Corey. I appreciate your insight and working with you outside of this podcast, doing the work we do together at the agency. This is the opportunity where I want to give you if you have any I don't know, you don't have to have an answer to this. But if there's anything that people should know about where to follow you or reach you at, if they're interested in doing so, do you have a place you'd like to be reached out at, or someone should go to follow you at?
Corey Ostler (00:24:34) - I have a website that's just coreyostler.com. It needs to be updated. So we need to work on that. But mostly at through EKR, some of my work is going to be posted on there. So that's probably the best place. And Facebook if you want.
Camden Bernatz (00:24:50) - Facebook, stick it out with the Facebook. Yeah. Right. Good. Okay. Well, thank you and thanks for the listeners for listening to another episode of Brands and Campaigns. We'll be back next week with another interview with another person who was behind the scenes on an exciting brand or campaign-related endeavor. Stay tuned for that. And as always, we feel like we here, we encourage you to subscribe to our podcast. You can be updated when those new episodes roll out and hey, maybe leave us a review if you're enjoying it as well, we appreciate that especially as we get started early on to help people find us and get to know this content with us. So thank you and we'll see you next time.
We recommend upgrading to the latest Chrome, Firefox, Safari, or Edge.
Please check your internet connection and refresh the page. You might also try disabling any ad blockers.
You can visit our support center if you're having problems.