Swell AI Transcript: Frances Schefter 00:04.118 SPEAKER_01 There we go. All right. Welcome everyone to our show. I'm excited to talk with Frances Schefter. We are talking about IEPs and the law. And so first I'm gonna welcome you to the show. 00:23.051 SPEAKER_00 Thank you. A little introduction, I'm Frances Schefter. My law firm is Schefter Law PA, where we help families have a stress-free IEP experience. 00:33.508 SPEAKER_01 That is something we don't hear enough of. a stress free IEP experience because those that have listened to me know that that really is drove my passion from my personal experience. And I had the background as a special educator. And I felt that when I had to sit on that side as a parent of an IEP table, that it was stressful and overwhelming. And I thought it should not be this hard. And so here we are hopefully to share a lot of information so that parents that are listening feel like you're right. It shouldn't be this hard and they have questions and answers to questions and they know who to turn to. So thank you for joining us. Can you please tell me, Frances, about you wrote an article about the bad speller turned attorney. Can you kick us off with your story? 01:29.143 SPEAKER_00 Sure. Um, so growing up in school, I grew up a long time ago when special ed was that special ed, you know, the secret word that everybody whispered and like, you don't want your child, you know, labeled because they'll never go to college and all that stuff. Um, so a lot of us struggled and I was a horrendous speller, still am to this day. And my grammar is mediocre, but with spellcheck and grammar, you know, it doesn't matter. And I wasn't great at math. And my parents were really good at math and understood numbers. So they would get frustrated at me because I just didn't get it because my brain did it differently than them. So I grew up, you know, I didn't think I was very smart. I went into teaching. I loved it. I've always loved children and special ed. I was in early childhood for my undergrad master's degree for sorry, a master's degree in special ed. I was in the classroom seven years and then two years at an alternative middle and high school as a special ed coordinator. And something didn't just, it just didn't feel right anymore. Like it wasn't about the kids. And so one day I decided, you know, I was always interested in the law, let me just take the LSATs and see what happens. And so a friend of mine was like, oh, that's an attorney. He said, you can't take the LSATs without taking Kaplan. And I'm like, OK, fine. I'll take the prep course. And then I was studying with some of the other students. And they're like, what do you mean you're not applying to law school? If you're taking the LSAT, you have to apply to law school. I'm like, all right, fine. I'll apply to law school. And I can picture myself clearly walking in my apartment complex, reading my mail and getting the letter from Stetson saying, you've been accepted. And I'm like, I'm going to law school. Wait a minute, I'm going to law school. It was that like, oh, like it didn't like I didn't say I'm going to go to law school and set the path. It was like, oh, let me just try this. Let me just try that. And that's the way it was. And then on at law school, I made it on to law review, which for those that don't know, it's like the top I think 3% of the top of all the school, like of the school. So it's very, very elite. And I was able to write on to Law Review, which just goes to show being a bad speller and not doing well in math and even not having great grammar aren't that important sometimes if you have the other stuff. 03:53.456 SPEAKER_01 Yeah. And it's important for families to hear that and put things into perspective. And as parents are seeking support for themselves, for their kiddo, can you help us start by identifying what is the difference between an attorney and an advocate? 04:12.275 SPEAKER_00 Okay. So I get this question all the time because everybody's always confused, and everybody says an attorney they're expensive and an advocate is not expensive. That's true advocates are usually less expensive than attorneys. But the difference is, as an attorney, we have the legal training. And there's an avenue. If we make a mistake and you lose your case, there's an avenue that could come after our license. So we're a little bit more on top of the law and know it. And we're not going to give advice. We're not going to do things that is against the law, basically. Advocates, they're well-trained. I have one on my staff. A lot of times they can be just special ed teachers or parents that went through it, and that's great, and they could have gone through a training, but they don't always know all of the ins and outs of the law, and they don't always know, you know, I've read cases that advocates have done things that they got to the point that an attorney couldn't fix it. And so that's the hard part is like advocates. I know several advocates that know, wait a minute, I need to bring in the attorney and now, you know, so we both have our place. 05:32.769 SPEAKER_01 So can you give us some situations where it would make more sense for a family to reach out to an attorney versus an advocate, or should they just go straight to an attorney? 05:45.155 SPEAKER_00 So what I like to say is, if you're debating and there's an issue already, you need to go straight to the attorney. Because while an advocate might be less expensive and might be knowing, a lot of times they, you know, some might just go to an IEP meeting and not know the law. And the difference is that the school system pays attention when an attorney is there. The school system has somebody from central office and or their attorneys. And that makes a huge difference because they're taking you more seriously because the higher ups are there. And a lot of times the school themselves don't know all of the law and we don't expect them to. And they don't know all the options. And again, we don't expect them to. They're great at what they do and they can't know everything. So bringing in somebody from central office and bringing in their attorney helps keep us within the confines of the law and make sure they give us different options a lot of times. 06:51.949 SPEAKER_01 Would you say that you feel like it makes it more contentious when the school system hears that there's a attorney coming? Or how could you, I guess what I'm trying to say is how can we better set a more positive collaborative stage when an attorney is present? 07:14.201 SPEAKER_00 So with myself and my associate, both of us are former special ed teachers. So yes, as soon as the school system hears we're bringing an attorney, the school system, you know, the schools freak out, especially if they don't know me or my associate yet, because they're like, oh, this is going to be a fight. But the difference with us is that we were there. you know, my associate also, we were special ed teachers, so we know the language. We are not coming in to fight with the school. We are coming in to focus on the child's needs and get the child what supports they need. And there's often been times that kind of off the record after the meeting, teachers will say to me, thank you so much. Because, you know, the teachers know what needs to be done. But if their principal or the higher ups are like, can't do this, can't do that, they don't, you know, they don't really have one way to go. 08:04.408 SPEAKER_01 Yeah, I feel like sometimes they feel like their hands are tied. And so having that conversation with somebody that is very in tuned and trained in the law can help better navigate that. And having a background like you do, Francis, really then puts it makes it a little more robust in the sense that you've been in the classroom, so you know what you're asking is something that's in line with what makes sense for a classroom setting versus somebody that has never been in the classroom. 08:41.349 SPEAKER_00 Right, exactly. 08:43.670 SPEAKER_01 What should parents consider when they're contacting an attorney? 08:51.013 SPEAKER_00 I mean, looking at the attorney's website, looking at their education, at their background, talking to other parents. But one of the most important things that I find is that making sure the attorney is the right fit. Like there's some attorneys out there that they're like, I can get your child into non-public, no problem, all the time, that's it, I'll get your child into non-public. Which is great for those kids that need non-public. But if your child doesn't need non-public, that might not be the best attorney for you. I also recommend checking them out. We don't offer free consultations, but we offer what we call a strategy session that we talk through the issues. and tell you what the plan would be. And so if it doesn't feel right, go check another attorney. I don't feel bad. I'm fine. Sometimes you fit, sometimes you don't. Make sure you fit with your attorney. Make sure your attorney is communicating with you, understands your needs, can repeat it back. Those are the main things I think of. And then with education, they need to know the education side of it as well. 10:06.492 SPEAKER_01 kind of back to the beginning real quick, what in your mind creates that stress-free IEP? 10:15.794 SPEAKER_00 For me, well, it came about because trust me, I've been in enough IEP meetings as teacher, special ed teacher, LEA, mom, attorney, you know, and they're stressful. They're all stressful. And when you are in an IEP meeting as a parent, you are in your emotions. Even I do that, you know, it's hard to be not to be in your emotions. This is your child. And what we do is we're there for you so that you can be in your emotions and not stress and worry that you're going to not hear something you're going to say the wrong thing or mess things up. We often tell our clients say whatever you want during the IEP meeting. At any point, what we can do without a problem is say what my client is trying to say and put it in the words that the school needs to hear. So we try to take that stress out. I'll give an example of a somewhat recent client that it got very, very contentious and very stressful. And I could tell my client was just not in a good place. And he said, you know what? can we caucus, like we need to step out. And so it was on Zoom. So they put us in a breakout room and we were able to talk and get focused on what our goal is and not to make decisions in her emotions. I was able to say, this is what we've been fighting for. And this is what we want. Because if we go there, that's not, I know that's not what you want. And she was able to, because I was firm with her and saying like, this is what we want. I was able to get her to the point that we got an IEP for the child and the child's doing amazing. 12:01.242 SPEAKER_01 And that is, I mean, isn't it nice even when you're in a doctor's appointment to have somebody with you that can have that kind of unemotional attachment to the conversation so that you can be in your feelings, but you have somebody that's able to sift through the information, ask the questions. And like you said, to be able to step out for a second and say, all right, let's refocus here. And so that the conversation can go in the way that you guys have already prepped. for it to be so. 12:32.858 SPEAKER_00 Exactly. And I've had clients come to me that they've already had the IEP meeting and they got mad and stormed off. And that's where the question comes often of like, well, but attorneys are expensive. Well, that client now just had a meeting, so took off work, however much that cost them, went to the meeting, got stressed out, then hired me in another meeting. And so now we're looking at two to three months. And while to us, two to three months might not be a big deal, For our kids, it's a huge deal because that's two to three months that your child's not getting the correct services. 13:10.618 SPEAKER_01 Absolutely, yes. Do parents need to let the IEP team know that they are bringing an attorney or contacting an attorney, but do they need to let the school know that they will be contacting an attorney or only when they are bringing that attorney? 13:28.254 SPEAKER_00 Only when bringing the attorney. Although I've told people often to say that I was talking to an attorney and see what happens, because a lot of times schools will be like, oh, oh, wait, what was it that you wanted? You know, and that changed their minds because they don't want an attorney to come. So you don't have to tell them at all. You only have to tell them when they bring, when you're bringing an attorney to the meeting, because the school system then has a right to bring their attorney. 13:57.139 SPEAKER_01 At the beginning of each IEP meeting, there are procedural safeguards. Can you tell parents what those are and how do they come into play into the IEP world? 14:07.313 SPEAKER_00 Okay, so procedural safeguards. There, you know, the 34 page, 25 page, however many pages of the laws, and in the procedural safeguards, there's a lot of what the school can do and what the school can't do. I actually have, and I'll send you the link to put in the show notes if you want, we have an abbreviation, procedural safeguards on one page that everybody's like, what? You know, it just hits the highlights. You know, when I worked in Florida, well, by law, federal law, schools have to explain the procedural safeguards to the parents. Most schools can't. In Florida, we had a cheat sheet that we would be able to read to and do, and I was a teacher, and so that's what came up with the idea of the procedural safeguards. I mean, these are the legal avenues that if the schools don't follow, that's when you have a case that you can bring due process case up against the school to fight for your rights, because they didn't do something that they were supposed to do. And as a result, they're denying your child a free and appropriate public education. 15:17.108 SPEAKER_01 So you brought up the term due process. And I think oftentimes there's confusion because families hear the term facilitated IEP due process and mediation. Can you kind of explain what the difference of those three terms are for families? 15:36.594 SPEAKER_00 Sure. So facilitated IEP is basically a neutral person comes to the IEP meeting and is kind of helps guide and make sure the IEP meeting goes the way it's legally supposed to go, basically. I don't think I've ever done a facilitated IEP meeting because I'm not sure who the people are that come. Mediation and due process are when you get to the point that you disagree with something the school has done. So they refuse to evaluate, say your child's fine and you think they should. So you'll file mediation and or due process. So You can file for, parents can file for mediation, they can file for due process, or they can file for both at the same time. It's really just a checkbox. And so mediation is when you actually go with the school system and a mediator. The mediator is a judge, but is not a judge in this position. And you try to come to an agreement. Oftentimes, the mediator will have us caucus. So they'll talk to the school, what you talk about in mediation is confidential, you cannot use it when you litigate, you cannot use it for anything else. So a caucus means they'll talk separately to each side to try and help come to a, you know, an agreement. Like, so if I tell the mediator, well, this is our bottom line, but this is what we really want. It's okay to tell the other side what we really want. We don't want them to know the bottom line yet. That's what the mediator will do. Will kind of, you know, come in between and hopefully come up with an agreement. And then due process is the actual litigation. That is when you go to a hearing in front of an administrative law judge, there you call witnesses, you have evidence. It's basically like a trial. It's a little more lax because it's administrative level. Depending on where you are, some states allow advocates to go through the due process, the entire due process thing, which I do not recommend because it is still a legal proceeding, even though you don't have to be a lawyer in some of them. And some states require that there's a lawyer that represents the family. 17:52.045 SPEAKER_01 You have a recommendation for either or both, or is it case specific? 18:01.968 SPEAKER_00 So it's case-specific. I go back and forth. There are times that I have just filed for mediation, and we walked into mediation, and I do our little opening, and the other side has said, well, yeah, we agree. Here, we're giving you everything you want. I've also walked into mediation that they're like, nope, nope, nope, would not give us anything. The thing about some other education attorneys say that when you file for due process and mediation, lets them know you're more serious, but most importantly is it starts the timeline and it gets the timeline done faster. Because if you go to, when you go to mediation, you have to have the mediation a certain day. And if you don't agree, then you have to go back and then file for due process. And it starts the timeline. Whereas when you file for mediation and due process, it kicks in how long they have to come to the table. And then you're having your due process hearing conference, like almost right after mediation, which is where you meet with the judge of, you know, how many days we need, witnesses and so forth. So it kind of elevates things when you do that. 19:17.027 SPEAKER_01 And then if you request both and you get the family receives what they would like through mediation, are they permitted to cancel due process? 19:28.108 SPEAKER_00 Yep, you could withdraw due process at any point in time. There's been times that we've had cases that even though they were really strong cases, my clients decided not to move forward because it was too stressful. And in Maryland, parents win less than 5% of the time in due process cases, which tells you a lot. And it's scary. Even if you have a really strong case, parents have the burden of proof. And it's kind of hard for the parents to prove that the school's not doing what the school's supposed to be doing and have the evidence and hire the witnesses and so forth. So there are times we'll file for due process and go all the way up till the week before the hearing and then decide to pull out or whatever it might be. You can always cancel at any point in time. 20:21.501 SPEAKER_01 What can you recommend for parents to kind of set up a positive experience through that IEP process to help avoid due process? 20:37.072 SPEAKER_00 So schools should be sending the IEP in advance. A lot of times, I will send the school our edits before we go to the IEP meeting so that at the IEP meeting, we just hit the points we need to talk about. Schools appreciate that because it's time. They usually have back-to-back IEP meetings. And if they have to discuss every little thing, it's a long meeting. But if they just hit those points, so that's the first thing. making sure you have your data. That's the biggest point on everything. Because the school might say, well, we don't see that. And if you as a parent say, well, these are the things I've done at home, and this is what I've seen, and this is why I recommend it, this is why I think it should be in school, sometimes the school will then go, oh, OK. Because it's that fine line. A lot of times schools will say, oh, it's a home issue. The behaviors are at home. but executive functioning, if they don't have the supports in school, the parents have to do it at home, that's still a school problem. And so it's just having your data, having the conversation, talk to the teachers beforehand, see where they are, see what they're thinking. Most of the times IEPs can be fine, normal, you're all on the same page, going the right thing, but also educate yourself. Parents should make sure they know what's supposed to be in, what's not supposed to be in, how it should be written, what, you know, what is a good goal? What's a good present levels? How should that look? And educating themselves so that they speak the same language as the teacher, you know, so that it's, that teacher's like, oh, you know what you're talking about, and it's a more level conversation. 22:29.930 SPEAKER_01 So what would you wish that parents knew more of? Like if we're talking about educating them on what something looks like, what is something that you wish that they were like, almost seems like every parent should know? 22:48.267 SPEAKER_00 You do not need to do it all alone. You know, it just, It's, we're a community, it takes a community to raise a child. We all know that. What I always tell my clients is that asking for help is actually a really good role model for your child also. Because you're saying, look, I need help getting through this to get you help to get through that. And so it's showing it's okay to get help. Also, what should they know? the procedural safeguards, which, yeah. 23:20.995 SPEAKER_01 I was gonna actually go back to that and ask, in the procedural safeguards, you said you had a one pager, right? Yes. Out of that, I know it's all critical, is there one that you're like, highlights star, every parent should know? 23:41.767 SPEAKER_00 That's hard to say because it's different, but I'll hit the highlights of the ones that we hit most often is that when schools say no to an evaluation, they are, so your child's not special education or 504, you say, hey, something's going on with my child, I need an evaluation. The school can't just say, your kid's fine, they're on grade level getting grades. The school has to have what's called a child-fied meeting and send what's called a prior written notice which comes after the meeting, which is, I know, confusing, but is supposed to say, like, we find the child that we don't need to do evaluations because of X, Y, and Z, and they have to give the explanation. That's the first one we use a lot. The second one is asking for an independent educational evaluation. If you disagree with the evaluations, or if the school refuses to evaluate, you can ask for an independent educational evaluation. Schools can't just say no. There's two things that schools can do when you ask for an IEE. They can say, OK, we authorize it. A lot of times, if there's been an evaluation, the school will say, while we support and stand by our evaluation, just to make things nice, we're going to give you the IEE. So they can do that. Or they can file for due process against you, the parent, to and say no, our evaluation is good, there's no reason to have a second opinion basically. It's rare that I've had, I can't say never because I have had it happen, it's rare that schools will say no to an IEE because it's less expensive for them to pay somebody to evaluate than for them to litigate the whole situation. But I've also had, when we've asked for an IAE, they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, we'll evaluate, which we're fine with, because that's all we want. That's all the client wants is get the child evaluated. If there's nothing there, fine, but look and get the child evaluated. And those are, I'm thinking through. And then timelines is the other thing. They can't just keep putting you off. In Maryland, we do not stop timelines for breaks. So if you ask for an IEP on, you know, it's Child Find meeting on June 17th, which is the last day of school, they still have 30 days to come to the table. They can't say, oh, let's wait, let's wait and see. We'll start at the beginning of the new year. Nope, they have to follow the timelines. 26:18.303 SPEAKER_01 As in Florida, I think the I hate to say worse, but in terms of timelines, like they don't go during summer, they don't go during winter break, they don't go during hurricanes, like their clock is not continuous. 26:35.629 SPEAKER_00 Right, and I recently learned that's California also, that if it's more than 10 days that the school is closed, that the timeline stops and restarts when school comes back. in session, which to me just blows my mind because it's just, you're sitting and waiting for three months on this child, which is such a huge difference. 26:58.324 SPEAKER_01 And if you've already were waiting and seeing on a child and then it really then compounds it. So again, encouraging parents to follow their gut, ask the question, reach out to the, for the support. Can you explain what ChildFind is? 27:17.315 SPEAKER_00 Yes, so Child Find, schools, that's in your procedural safeguards, Child Find is that schools have a legal obligation to identify children that might need services. And that's for anything. So even though, and that's children birth till age 21, they have that legal obligation. So when you ask for a child fine meeting, it's that initial meeting saying you think something's wrong, the school needs to look at it. There have been several cases that we have child fine violations because there were so many indicators that a child needed special education or a different placement or something of the sort, and the school sat there and did nothing. and absolutely nothing. And just year after year went by and the child never got services and it's sad what happens. So that's it. The school has a legal obligation. So if you, you know, knowing the term, like I would like, you know, and in writing, that's very important in writing, I would like to request a child find meeting because I think my child is struggling in reading, or I think my child has executive functioning issues, whatever it might be, be specific and do it in writing. Cause that starts the timeline. 28:34.630 SPEAKER_01 And then you use the term prior written notice, which is a very confusing term. What is your best advice for parents in understanding this crucial document? 28:49.395 SPEAKER_00 So what the prior written notice is supposed to be is supposed to hit all the topics that you discussed at the meeting. After the topics, it should say why each topic was or wasn't followed wasn't used or done. So if you're at a triennial evaluation and the team decides that we don't need to evaluate we all know the child special ed we're good, then they need to say. discussed evaluations, you know, proposed action evaluations, team determined evaluations weren't needed. If there's a disagreement, so the parent wants a one-on-one and the school says no, make sure that's in the prior written notice. Like this is something, and say to the school, make sure you put it in the prior written notice. Like any disagreement in your IEP meeting, say, make sure it's in the prior written notice. That there tells the school, you know what you're talking about. And they're going to have to explain it. And here's the thing. It's a legal document that's getting uploaded into their system. So if they're doing something that they're not supposed to be doing and kind of trying to be not trying to be sneaky, but you know know that they probably shouldn't be doing it that's going to change their minds as well, because they don't want their names on that. If you get a PWN that doesn't have. that doesn't have everything. I always recommend, and I joke around calling it the shifter way, because it's my father, you know, like everything in writing, don't take no for an answer. And the school won't correct it. Then you write a letter to the school saying, dear so-and-so, I received the PWN. This was left off. This was discussed in the meeting. This is what you told me. And so there you have it sent on whatever date it was sent. the school should take that and put it in the system, they don't always, but at least you have a notice saying, like, we talked about it on this date. And it 100% matters, and this is why. Because that's the legal document. If it's not in there, it didn't happen. And so I've had at an IEP meeting, we discussed least restrictive environment, that's your placement. And 100% we discussed that the child needed a more restrictive environment. Legal was not at that meeting, so they don't know. It was in the prior written notice. And so that right there, like discussed placement, chose not to because X, Y, Z. And that right there went, oh, okay. So then the school did say placement needed more restrictive, because that was their point. And we were able to get to the next level. 31:40.635 SPEAKER_01 Why would the school refuse to do something. 31:45.564 SPEAKER_00 Um, that's a loaded question. Nobody's trying to be malicious. They're not out to get you. They're not. But unfortunately, the higher, higher, higher ups that aren't on the ground in the, you know, in the weeds with the kids. Sometimes we'll say things like we have too many kids being identified as special ed. Stop identifying kids. You know, sometimes you have principals, I say this all the time, principals make or break the special ed department and you have principals that say, nope, nope, nope. You can see it at the meetings because the teachers just sit there. and the principal does all the talking. So, you know, sometimes it's that way that the principal does it. I hate to say it's about money, but it is. There's something called FTE week, where that's when the federal government looks at the numbers in your school, and that's when budgeting is determined. And if you have a child that comes special ed after that, they're not counted in your budget. So that can be an issue. And sometimes the schools just don't know. You know, they don't know like, oh, we have to, or they're just set in their ways of like, if a child's getting straight A's and on grade level, they're not special ed, period. 33:03.031 SPEAKER_01 Yeah, they could be. And I always tell parents to look at bell to bell or bus to bus and look at beyond the cognitive, the academic, looking at, you know, well, processing memory and attention, but also social, emotional, physical, sensory, you know, movement, function, communication, look at the whole picture. It's not just all about academics. 33:29.841 SPEAKER_00 Exactly. And that's, that's the problem is it used to be, um, it used to be, if you were on grade level, you weren't considered special and they didn't look at it, but the, now they're looking at social emotional can be a reason to get an IEP. Um, especially with our kiddos on the spectrum, you know, ASD kids, they, They're fine academically, but they can't function socially. And they used to say, well, that's a social issue. That's a home issue, not a school issue. But now they're realizing if a child's not fitting in socially, they're not accessing the curriculum. They're not part of the group. They're not part of the classroom, and they need those supports. And so the schools are definitely doing that now. They're giving the supports for the social. the attention, the scatteredness sometimes, you know, the forgetting the homework, not writing it down, might not rise to the level of IEP, but you might need a 504 plan to just get some accommodations in there. 34:27.204 SPEAKER_01 So what happens if a school skips a prior written notice or one doesn't come home? That's my first question. The second is Is the timeline, is it a federal timeline or a state timeline for receiving a prior written notice for a family? 34:48.177 SPEAKER_00 So there's not a timeline on the prior written notice. It's federal law that they have to supply it. What I always say is you ask for it. If they still don't send it, I send the letter to the school saying We have not received the prior written notice. This is my account of what happened at the meeting. So again, in writing, and if you don't have an attorney involved, CC it to the director of special ed. get somebody higher up involved to say, you need to do that. From my teacher days, I say, we did things the way we thought they were supposed to be done. I don't think I ever did a prior written notice when I was special coordinator, because nobody ever did it. And so nobody ever said, you need to do one. So the teachers aren't trying to be mean, or trying to be obnoxious, or just failing to do their job. They might not even know that it's something that needs to be done. And so that's a lot of times, like, just go to the higher up. The teacher might say no, but OK, tag the principal and special education, you know, they're the central office to get to get them to know, like, oh, wait, we're not doing something legal here. 35:57.452 SPEAKER_01 What are some ways you have seen IEP teams mitigate conflict and seek resolution? 36:06.552 SPEAKER_00 I have seen it happen without litigation. Oftentimes, it's get out of the your side my side. and focus on the child. And somebody on the team, usually myself or my client, brings it back to the child. I have one client. I love it. She brings a picture of her child and puts it in the middle of the table. So everybody knows this is who we're talking about. We're not talking about this name. We're talking about this child. And I found schools relax on that a lot. You know, I've had, I've had people like, well, my experience, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, great. My experience X, Y, Z too, you know, that doesn't matter. Like here, we're talking about this kiddo and what is the best for this child, not who has the most credentials to say what's the best. As a team, what do we determine? And sometimes it's exactly what my client wants. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes and that's where I say bringing an attorney help central office has a total out of the box something that none of us even thought about. And that's the thing it's being flexible and listening to the school's data. and what they have. So, you know, for example, you're like, my kidney is non-public. And if they say, but the social aspect of being with non-public, with gen ed students, this is why it's important. Like, listen to that and see what the reasoning is because non-public is not what everybody thinks it is. 37:43.162 SPEAKER_01 Can you explain what that means? 37:46.434 SPEAKER_00 um what non-public not the non-public so non-public is a special education school it's not a private i mean it's technically a private school but it's not like your private school that you think of st andrews you know those private schools it's a special education school your child has no interaction with general education students the entire school is special education. And so while it's a more restrictive environment, better student teacher ratio, it might not be the best fit for your child because, you know, Some kids need that interaction with general education. Some kids don't because they're not going to progress either way. They need that. But it's knowing your child. And if, you know, sometimes being in that small of a school, special ed school, kids are like, I'm not going there. You know, and so it's remembering that it's a full special ed school. And that's like another recommendation for parents. Know what you're asking for. You know, I hear all the time, like, well, you know, X, Y, Z happened in the classroom, in the mommy and me groups, and somebody would be like, oh, you need to push for a non-public. And so the parent starts pushing for a non-public, not even knowing what that means. So go visit them, know what it means, know what this could be potential for. 39:08.800 SPEAKER_01 I think all this reminds me of, I did an episode in season two, two guests, Tamara Jacobson and Peggy Budd, they talked about the third voice, right? Like you have the parent voice and you have the school voice and then that collaborative middle of hearing both sides, just as you were talking, reminded me of that conversation with them and just really having the parents kind of look through everything of what that means as well for them and really kind of coming in the middle to then create the stress-free process with your guidance. 39:48.141 SPEAKER_00 And that's what I say, like if an IEP meeting gets to that point that they're not listening, parents can say, you know what? IEP meeting is over. We're going to reschedule. I need to step out and end the IEP meeting. And the school can't continue without the parent especially when the parent says, you're not allowed to continue without me. And that's it like I tell parents all the time trust your gut. Yeah, we have it for a reason. It's 99.99% right. If something's going on and your gut is telling you something's not right, this doesn't feel right, you can stop the meeting. You can then contact an attorney or an advocate or something, but at any point in time, you can stop the meeting and get it scheduled for a different date. 40:37.498 SPEAKER_01 You had mentioned that you will go through IEPs and looking at goals and present level performance. What would you suggest for parents as to standing out for a really strong present level performance and or strong IEP goal for a student? 41:02.624 SPEAKER_00 So the biggest thing is to remember that they're all supposed to be connected. So your present levels is telling the picture of your child, where your child's strengths are and where your child's weaknesses are. The goals should come directly from where your child's weaknesses are. and build on the strengths. And that's the thing I always say to parents, it's not a separate thing. If you can't understand it, and if they're not connected in any way, they're not a good goal. Oftentimes, people do goals on attendance. Well, attendance isn't the issue. So the core issue is that the child is not comfortable in the classroom. What do we need to do in the classroom to get attendance going? And don't be afraid to say, yeah, that goal doesn't work for me. My child can already do that, or that's not an important one. But know that it's all connected. Present levels, you should be able to read that and say, oh, yeah, that's my kid. straight from, a lot of times it's straight from the evaluations. And then it's, you know, where is your child struggling from that present levels? Let's go and see what accommodations and supplemental aids and services we can put in place. 42:20.637 SPEAKER_01 And also just guiding parents on their parent input statement and what that looks like. And I always tell parents, you know, yes, I want you to think ahead three months, six months, a year, but also, you know, you're that consistent voice throughout this schooling of your child, you're going to be at those IEP meetings and teachers are going to change, case managers and administrators are going to change, so where do you see your child in three years, in five years, so that you can start those conversations to link up any type of outside agencies that you may need to start getting on wait lists for, or just ensuring that their educational journey and experiences aligned with their strengths and needs as you see them and as it's impacting them throughout their school day. 43:07.514 SPEAKER_00 Right, exactly. And the parent input, it's kind of like your turn to write what you want, even though the school usually abbreviates it, but it's like, that's your point as the parent of like, this is who my child is. This is what my child can do. This is where I want my child to go. And this is what's important to me. Yeah, it's to help that the school know where you are as the parent. 43:32.816 SPEAKER_01 Can we just step back real quick in terms of that appeal process? When do you recommend parents submit an appeal or submit that moving outside of their school? I think, you know, we kind of talked about different terminology, but I didn't, I don't think we really addressed like when would a parent seek your counsel, but also say, all right, this is not working here within this school, I need to now move out of this in terms of not physically having my student move out of the school, but I need to seek higher guidance through the appeal process, whether that's due process or mediation or however, when when would a parent feel like this IEP team is not aligning with my child's needs? 44:21.975 SPEAKER_00 So first I'll correct you on the terminology. It's not an appeal. It's filing for due process or mediation. Appeal is something totally different. Appeal is you lose that due process and then you appeal to the higher level court. And that you have to have an attorney for it because that's in the court systems. When should you file for due process and mediation? It's hard because the parents have the burden of proof. So sometimes I'll even advise parents that, you know what, you can fight this, or if you have the means and put them in private school, that might be better for your child. When do you file? When you feel that you have enough data to support. So you disagree, but I also do not recommend ever filing for mediation or due process without an attorney. because you're just wasting your time and the school's time and you're not gonna get anywhere. You know, I've seen clients do, I've seen parents do file and, you know, like they try to bring us in like, oh, well, the hearing's in three days. Well, first of all, no, I'm not jumping into it. I can't prepare for a due process hearing in three days. And sometimes it's, you don't even have the data to support it. Whereas you could go back and ask for, an IEP meeting to be like, look, this is what we think. Calling central office to bring them in. I would say, keep going up the ladder to get what you need of going like superintendent of special ed. And then if you're still not getting the answers and you still don't feel heard, then definitely talk to an attorney to see if there's even a case worth. Because even though there's a case that it's impacting your child, if there's not a remedy, you can't really file. 46:16.482 SPEAKER_01 And then since I kind of blurred all my terms together in a really long question, if the percentage is so low of parents winning, where would an appeal even fit in them? 46:34.015 SPEAKER_00 So that other 95% of parents that lose? then they would appeal to a higher court. The law says that you have to, in administrative law, you have to follow through, you have to exhaust all, sorry, all avenues in the administrative process before you can file an appeal with the courts. Although interestingly, there's a new Supreme Court case, Perez, kind of went a different way. You still have to file the administrative. In that case, they settled that part. And then they still filed for under ADA for discrimination. And the Supreme Court said, you absolutely can. They're two separate things. And so, which was a huge win for parents, because that means parents can go into federal court and say, they discriminated against my child because he was disabled, because they didn't do X, Y, and Z. And that's where you can actually get pain, and suffering, and money, and making things whole again. 47:44.036 SPEAKER_01 As we're winding down, what is something that I should have asked you that I didn't? 47:57.236 SPEAKER_00 where to find information. That's a big thing. That's a very big thing, is where to find information. So I have my YouTube channel, Schefter LaPierre. I have over 100 videos. Most of them are three-minute snippets on doing it. Do your research, and don't trust everything you read on the internet. Double-check your source, because I've seen some really bad advice. Don't always listen to the parents' groups. you know, know who's giving the advice because I've also seen very bad advice in parents groups. So know your sources and research and find the information. Like there's my website, there's Learning Disabilities of America, Decoding Dyslexia DC, like all of the sites, almost all disability has a group that has information on their website for parents to learn about. And also, I just have to say, parents, if you can, get in a support group. It's so important to talk to other parents that are going through what you're going through, because we get it. Other parents don't and never will. Until you have a child with an IEP that's quirky, special needs, no parents are going to, you can't get it. It's just, we're a different animal. 49:20.554 SPEAKER_01 Yeah. Well said. And I always ask my guests if they had advice or a tip for parents to put on a billboard, what would it be and why? 49:31.740 SPEAKER_00 You don't need to do it all alone. That's, you know, kind of became my tagline accidentally, but it's so true. It's just use the community, you know, um, it's okay to need support. It's okay. that your child's different. Your child is amazing and wonderful and fabulous, no matter what hole the school tries to stuff them in. And no matter how outside of, you know, society's normal, your child is, your child is amazing and wonderful. And remember to focus on that. 50:07.494 SPEAKER_01 Fabulous last words. How can people find you? 50:13.538 SPEAKER_00 So Schefter Log PA is pretty much my handle for everything, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and my website. And then my show podcast is Stress Free IEP and that's stress free with a hyphen. I'm all over the place. I can be found on internet. 50:34.881 SPEAKER_01 So thank you so much for joining us and giving some fantastic insights for stress-free IEP and guidance for parents as they navigate this educational journey for their kiddos. So thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. You bet.