Spending time outdoors is a big part of travel and tourism.

For many of us, vacation time is when we get to be outside the most.

It's when we have time to lounge on a beach, go walking on a trail, canoeing

on a lake, or go backcountry hiking.

But the outdoors are vulnerable, and so it's important that we all know how

to enjoy them in a responsible way.

Today we're going to talk about how to do that.

We're chatting with Taryn Eichten, a Leave No Trace Master Educator

and a former member of the Board of Directors of Leave No Trace Canada.

We're chatting with her about what it actually means to Leave No Trace and we're

going to unpack gatekeeping the outdoors.

Is it good to gatekeep?

Is it bad?

Let's find out.

Hey Erin, this is our last episode of the season.

Can you believe it?

I actually can't and that's because the Curious Tourism listeners don't know

this, but we've literally been working on this season since like February.

It's

been so long.

But I'm like, Oh, man, I'm so excited.

And like, looking back at all the episodes that we did this season,

I'm so proud of all of them.

They're so good.

I know.

I feel like, like we're really, we've hit our peak.

Well, hopefully it's not our peak, but like

we're doing good.

So curious.

Spacetourism has over a hundred episodes and if you're just joining us now,

please make sure that you've hit the follow button right now on Spotify or

your favorite podcast app because there are so many great episodes to check out.

We've got episodes on topics like why wheelchairs can't roll onto planes, which

is one of my personal favorite episodes.

We've got one on spacetourism and another personal on why Canada

is so dang hard to travel around.

Uh, so just so many episodes to catch up on.

So please subscribe.

And if you want to get in touch with us, you can find all our contact info and

our social handles in the show notes.

And you can DM or even email us anytime.

So please do that.

I'm curious.

Katie?

Yeah?

What's your favorite episode from this season?

Well, I

just mentioned so many that were so good, but from this season, okay.

I mean, the first one with Nora and Zach is still like...

So, so fun for me because I just love them both so much and we had such a

passionate, passionate conversation about capitalism, basically.

Our episode with Kathy about romanticizing Scotland, that was so good.

I was literally just talking to somebody about this episode the other day.

And then our episode with uh, Stacia about Roadside Zoos was also, I think,

a long time coming for us and I was very excited that we finally got to do

that episode because I was surprised we didn't do it when Tiger King came out.

So I feel like it was long overdue and I'm so happy we did it.

I

actually was going to say the same.

Like the episode about zoos, I just learned so much.

And it definitely, like, Stacia did such a good job of, like, changing wrong opinions

I had about zoos, like, going into it.

Because definitely going into it, my stance has always been,

like, oh no, don't go to zoos.

So I feel, like, so much more informed from that.

Which I'm happy about.

Just learning

more about the accreditations that exist out there was truly eye opening for me

because I then googled all of the zoos and stuff around my neighborhood and

found out that so many are accredited.

And I was like, this is very nice.

Now I feel confident like going there with my friends and their kids.

Yeah.

I also really loved our episode with Dawn about gentrification

and tourism in Mexico.

It was so good.

I just feel like it's such like an important topic to

be talking about right now.

There was a huge, like, digital nomad movement towards Mexico,

and so I just think it was, like, a really timely episode.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

And Dawn was just, like, so well informed.

And she came in being like, I don't really know much about tourism, and

then had so much information to give us.

It's like, Dawn!

It's funny, like, I've thought about this a lot, actually.

Like, tourism touches everyone's lives in ways that they don't even

realize, which sounds so silly, and of course I would say that as, like,

a tourism obsessor, but it really

does.

I was actually thinking about this when we were driving home from our recent

little stay at a little bunky that we stayed at over the weekend and you and I

were, we briefly talked about billboards and how there's those billboards in

the middle of nowhere and that are, you're, they're like, buy an ad.

And we were like, Ooh, I wonder how much an ad would be on one of these billboards

where like Torontonians and city people drive through small, small towns.

So I was thinking in my head as we were driving, like, what would be on our

billboard, and I think I thought of something along the lines that was just

like, is tourism bad for our planet?

And then being like, subscribe to Curious Tourism to find out more.

It's like a big phrase.

Something general, because it's true, like, travel and tourism really are

so ingrained in like so many parts of our lives that we even realize.

There's my pitch for you for the uh, billboard.

I

like that.

I like using like a really hard hitting question to capture attention.

Is the travel industry ruining our planet?

That's a good one.

Stay tuned for local billboards near you.

Just drive to Muskoka and look for us.

Okay, there was something I wanted to mention on this note too, because it was

something that I read an article about recently and I wish I could find it back.

I'm looking right now, but I read this article about how Taylor Swift

drives like huge tourism revenue.

in economies.

And I had never really thought about it.

And the reason I started thinking about this was because when they released the

tour dates for Toronto, for context, everyone listening, I wouldn't say

I'm a Swifty, but I do want to go to this tour because honestly, I think

my interest in it is mostly like.

a cultural interest.

I'm just like fascinated by like all the hype around this and the people

that are like invested in her and I'm, I'm just fascinated by the whole thing.

So I just want to go and like witness what these shows are like.

So silly little old me looked at like ticket prices and how to get them and was

like, wow, this is not happening for me.

But in that research, I was stumbling across these articles that were

talking about how like the week that she is in Toronto, like all of

the hotels will be sold out, like the restaurants will be booming.

Basically, it's going to bring like tons of tourism to the city.

And I was just thinking about this because I was like, it's such a great

example of how something that you think has nothing to do with tourism.

Can and think

about originally when she had announced her tour.

She didn't announce any Canadian stops It was all in Europe and in the States

and a ton of Canadians were really really mad Because they were like what the heck

and they were about to go spend all of this money to go to the States and go

See her so like yeah, that's part of it,

right?

Yeah, because she only released Toronto dates like a basically

people across Canada are going to travel to Toronto for the show.

Like, I personally know people who've already, like, bought a ticket,

booked a hotel, booked a flight.

And those people, like, they're gonna come.

They're not gonna just come for one night and go to the Taylor Swift show.

Like, they're gonna come, stay, like, three, three nights, two week,

and they'll make a trip out of it.

That's gonna be such

an expensive trip.

Yeah.

Oh my god, going to Toronto for a few days and trying to rent or book a hotel is,

oh my god, it's It's easily a three day trip to go see Taylor Swift in Toronto.

Mm hmm.

You

gotta be really committed.

That's like what?

Two grand at least.

Easily.

Easily.

At least.

Depending on where you're flying from.

Well, actually, speaking of, uh, flying across the country, you just

came back from BC, from British Columbia, visiting your brother.

And from what I saw on Instagram, it looked like you had the best time ever.

So I don't know.

I'm going to ask you the same question that you asked me about my Halifax trip.

What were your top three things?

That was my reaction,

too.

It's a good question.

Um, okay.

Well, number one was spending time with my brother and his partner and

like quality time because my brother lives on the other side of the country.

So we don't get to see each other that often.

And it's pretty rare that we spend like a full like we were

together like a full nine days.

It's living in the same space, just spending all day together.

And it was really nice because I honestly haven't spent that much time

with him like since we like lived under the same roof as teenagers.

So that was really special.

So nice.

Yeah.

So that was definitely highlight number one.

Highlight number two is definitely just in general going to Tofino.

Because I'd never been and I just like heard all these things about it.

My sister actually used to live there and my mom went there in the 80s.

So like the family has always talked about Tofino.

And it's just one of those places in Canada that I think like a

lot of people want to go to.

And so we decided to do it.

It's about a four hour drive from where my brother lives and it's like a very intense

kind of scary drive, but it's so worth it.

And I just like barely have words to describe it.

It's just an interesting moody place.

Cause like it's so overcast and rainy, but like incredibly beautiful.

And you're right on the ocean.

And, uh, like the trees are just like, the joke is always that

like in Ontario, everything is.

smaller than in BC, like BC everything's oversized.

So like the trees in Tofino are just these like massive, massive, majestic trees.

And they just like really blew my mind.

I know it's a silly thing to say, like the trees blew my mind, but

they did because I'm just not used to seeing like massive trees.

And we just did fun things, we went to this like floating sauna dock, which

was definitely a splurge, but worth it.

We went surfing, so I surfed for the first time.

I was going to ask if you went surfing in Tofino, because that's my only

reference, is the song Surfing in Tofino.

That's actually, like, for anyone who doesn't know about Tofino, it's

basically like a small town, sort of.

So, Where I went is Vancouver Island.

My brother lives in Victoria, which is one of the cities on Vancouver Island,

and Tofino is north of Victoria, and it's a small town, and it's known mostly for

being a surfing town, especially in the winter because the surf is really nice.

Um, and there's not much there, like there's not a hospital,

there's, there's just really like a, it's just a small community.

And so yeah, there's tons of surfing and it's funny because like we were

joking, everyone who works in Tofino is from Australia or the UK, like we

never met people who were Canadian.

So we had an Australian teach us to surf and, um, it was really fun.

I actually managed to get up and like actually stand, which I'm really proud

of because I was like, I don't know if my 33 year old body can handle this.

And my brother and Luke were like really good at it.

And then, um.

The other highlight was definitely Cathedral Grove, which is a section of

like really ancient trees back to trees.

Here we are.

She loves trees.

It's a section of really ancient trees that you pass like on your way to Tofino.

And we stopped there like right, at dusk.

And so there was no one else there.

And we were just wandering through this like ancient forest

and the trees are massive.

Like I just, they're massive.

Like I've, I have no words.

So favorite thing number two and favorite thing number three,

both include massive trees.

Just being in awe of massive

trees.

Yeah.

And they're so old.

Like they're older than like, Canada, like colonial Canada.

Like, they're hundreds and hundreds of years old.

Like, some of them are a thousand years old.

And it just blows my mind to think about that.

That's like an awesome trip.

And you know what's really funny and coincidental, Erin?

You and I were both in surf capitals of Canada this year.

but on opposite sides of the country.

I was in Lawrence Town, Nova Scotia, surf capital of the east coast, and you were

in Tofino, surf capital of the west coast.

Yep.

I don't know if people know that Canada is such a surfing destination.

It truly is.

It really is.

I mean, you know me, the entire time, all I was thinking about

was, is there a shark around me?

My, my deep seated fear of the ocean is jellyfish and sea urchins.

Because I know jellyfish just end up on shore.

They're all over the place and you can't see them.

And then they sting you and you get electrocuted or whatever it is.

And I don't want that.

The thing is, you can survive a jellyfish.

Yeah, but

I feel like you can spook a shark and it'll just swim away.

But a jellyfish doesn't know it's alive.

So it just.

Okay, so I actually know who could answer this question for us.

And it's the host of Tooth and Claw, which is a podcast I'm really obsessed with.

Ooh, okay.

And actually, I would credit this podcast with my fear of sharks.

The funny thing about it is that the goal of their show is to make

people less afraid of wildlife.

But for me, it's done the opposite.

Anyways, I really want to have them on the show.

So maybe.

Next year, we can make that happen, um, because they're all animal

biologists and they just talk about like how to be safe around

wildlife when you're in the outdoors.

I love that.

Okay, Erin.

Well, I think it's time we better get into this conversation with Taryn.

But before we do, uh, this, as we said, is our last episode of the season.

Last year, we were too busy to do our annual holiday bonus episode, but please

stay tuned because we do have a very fun bonus episode coming out in December.

So, uh, yeah, we've got a little bit more coming for the rest of the year,

but otherwise, before we get into our chat with Taryn, any last words?

Yeah,

I guess my last words would be that I hope everyone enjoyed this season and

learned some things, and I hope that while we're on break, everyone stays curious.

My name is Taryn Knighton.

I am Uh, various things.

Most of the time, what I do is write about the outdoors on

my website, happiestoutdoors.

ca, but I've also written a book, Backpacking in

Southwestern British Columbia.

I have another book coming out next year, and I've been involved with

Leave No Trace as a volunteer since 2006, I'm a master educator which is

the highest level of Leave No Trace

education.

So Leave No Trace Canada is a national non profit that advocates

for responsible outdoor activities.

The concept of Leave No Trace is something that we've mentioned

on Curious Tourism before, but we haven't ever dug into it in detail.

Could you describe what Leave No Trace

means?

Sure.

In like a nutshell, it's minimizing your impact on the environment so

that other people can enjoy it.

The sort of genesis of Leave No Trace came about in the 60s and

70s in California, Sierra Nevada mountains, where people were hiking.

In the Sierras more frequently and notice that, um, with more people there,

there were fire rings and garbage and trails braiding and they thought, like,

what are we going to do about this?

So they came up with this idea of seven principles to guide us in the outdoors.

The principles themselves have remained pretty much unchanged since then,

but the sort of like tips and tricks that go with each principle update

often as we discover new things.

Um, they're scientifically researched and backed.

Mm

hmm.

You mentioned that you're a master educator.

Yes.

How did you go about getting that education?

Like what's involved with that kind of certification?

Yeah.

So, um, Leave No Trace offers lots of different kinds of education.

Um, you can take basic quizzes online or you can go to in person workshops.

Um, and so what I did was a five day backcountry camping workshop

to get certified to teach Leave No Trace to other people and to

train people to teach Leave No

Trace.

And I'm assuming you're a big outdoors person.

So that's probably how you became interested in this.

But what was your path to working in the field of Leave No

Trace and becoming an educator

about it?

Yeah, it's something that I kind of fell into.

I have a previous life where I was a lawyer.

And when I was in law school, I worked at an outdoor store, and they offered

the opportunity to do a Leave No Trace trainer course, which is a two day course.

And I was like, Oh, you know, I've been backpacking and hiking

for a few years at that point.

I want to know more about kind of the do's and don'ts and this

sounds like a good fit for me.

So I did that two day trainer course and well, didn't really work out, but,

uh, working in the outdoors worked out.

So I've kind of.

You know, was giving workshops and teaching on social media as well.

And then later on my website, um, for years.

And then in 2019, I decided that I wanted to get the sort of like top certification.

So I went to, uh, a course that was being offered in Yellowstone National Park.

Also because, I mean, why wouldn't you go to a five day guided trip

in the back country of Yellowstone National Park, if you could.

Yeah, that sounds like a great opportunity.

I would love to do that.

Yeah.

So I mean, I think the answer to this is pretty obvious, but why would you say

it's so important that people be aware of and practice the principles of leaf no

trace?

So if you're familiar at all with the idea of like the tragedy of the commons, right?

If we all have like unlimited access to a resource, there maybe isn't a lot of.

incentive for individuals to protect the resource or to not

use it as much as they want to.

The idea with Leave No Trace is that we want to keep places

from being loved to death.

We want to make sure that nature belongs to all of us and that we can all enjoy it,

um, and so that places, you know, stay in the state that we want to visit them in.

Mm hmm.

We talk a lot on Curious Tourism about over tourism, but we often talk about

it more in the context of urban spaces.

And I feel like Leave No Trace is sort of like an over tourism counter action,

but more for like the outdoor space.

Yeah, it definitely is.

Like where I live, so I live in Squamish, British Columbia, which

is a mountain town in between Whistler and Vancouver in Canada.

And there's a real, huge influx of people to our corridor every

summer of people who are coming.

It's beautiful here to hike and mountain bike and rock climb.

And there's been a lot of backlash around the impact that.

this kind of outdoor over tourism has had.

So there's been lots of attempts anyway, at education campaigns

for people who are coming.

Um, and that's something that I think is reflected in tons of

places around the world where people are coming to do outdoor tourism.

Definitely.

I actually have a friend who lives in Squamish, so I've spent some

time there rock climbing and hiking.

What is the name of the main, uh, hike that everyone does there, the Overlook?

Um, so the Overlook hike, it's called the Stawamish Chief.

It's the world's second largest granite monolith after Half Dome in Yosemite.

Um, it's this like big huge granite blob mountain, um, that people will climb

up the front because it's very steep.

Um, or you can hike a trail up the back that's mostly stairs.

Yeah.

So my friend who lives there, so I've hiked it twice with her and, and she

and I talk often about that hike because we've done it on a busy day where it's

like completely packed in the summer, but we've also done it like on a

rainy fall day when no one was there.

And like the stark difference was very intense.

And the amount of people on the trails, but something that she's told me, like

in later years, like since the time that I've been there is that the, I don't know

what it's called, but the lines that, cause there's a cable car that goes up.

So the cable line allegedly was cut by some people overnight.

And she was telling me that people in Squamish think that it may have been

like backlash for the amount of tourism that's been coming into the area.

And this is something I've just like been curious about a lot because it seemed

like a very extreme action to take.

But, and I guess it's like not conclusive, but yeah, I was always curious about

that story.

Yeah.

So there's like a tourist cable car gondola next to the Stoamish

Chief that goes up to like an overlook kind of above it.

It's beautiful up there.

It's an area that When the development was proposed about 10 years ago,

locals were like, this is terrible.

It's going to commercialize the nature.

It's going to take land out of a provincial park.

And now that it's there, locals are like, Oh, I have a year

round locals pass at a discount.

And I go up every week and I like to take my kids for hot chocolate.

And I like to take my grandma to look at the view.

So I think that, yeah, like developments like that have certainly.

added to tourism in Squamish, but locals are much more upset about things like

people illegally camping on logging roads that are next to neighbourhoods

and pooping everywhere and lighting fires when fires aren't banned and things like

that than they are about businesses that bring dollars and jobs to our community.

Makes sense.

So that's a good segue.

What would you say are some practical tips for people who maybe are hearing

about this concept for the first time and want to get started the next time

they are out enjoying the outdoors?

I think the first

thing you can do is read the seven principles of Leave No Trace.

You can read them on leavenotrace.

ca in English and French or on lnt.

org in English and maybe they also have Spanish.

I'm not sure.

That's the American version.

But I think it's important to know.

A lot of people think like, oh, leave no trace.

I know what that means.

I just don't leave any trash.

I'm cool.

I don't need to read any more about this.

I know what I'm doing.

And I promise you, even if you are a very experienced outdoors person,

you will learn something so you can read up on the principles that you

are the most interested in or most relevant to the things that you do.

So like there are principles that cover things like campfires and wildlife

interaction, campsite selection.

The seventh principle is to be considerate of other users.

So, thinking about those unspoken etiquette rules that,

uh, you might not be aware of.

One

that I found surprising that I learned not that long ago that I tell people

often too is about organic waste, that you should be packing out your organic waste.

I think a lot of people think like, Oh, like this is organic.

I can just like throw it into the woods, like it'll decompose.

Yeah.

There's lots of, there's lots of myths like that to bust.

The one that I like to say about organic waste is, uh, if it doesn't

grow here, it doesn't go here.

So it is, yeah, you're introducing possibly invasive species, you're

also maybe creating food for animals that's not natural, and it looks

like garbage for a long time.

So something like an orange peel or banana peel can take months or in some

cases two or three years to decompose, and in the meantime it looks gross.

We don't want to look at that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So something else that you made me think of is how I'm starting to

see, especially in like very like outdoors focused tourism regions of

the world, pledges popping up, which are basically riffs on Leave No Trace.

Um, so for example, when I was in Iceland, I noticed this in a lot

of bathrooms, like public washrooms on the backs of the doors, they

would have the Icelandic pledge.

So I think that's really cool to see.

That's something recent, like post pandemic, I would say that

I've noticed tourism boards are starting to, to really promote.

And those pledges are a really good starting point, I think, for sort of

understanding Leave No Trace principles.

Although they bring in, like, other principles related to tourism, a lot

of them touch on outdoor practices as

well.

Yeah, I was in Haida Gwaii this summer, which is a, like, remote

island archipelago off the coast of British Columbia that is primarily

Indigenous, um, the Haida people.

And the Haida pledge, uh, incorporates Principles of leave no trace, but um,

from a very Haida perspective, like a sort of a more um, holistic way of

thinking about our relationship to nature than we do normally in the West,

I thought that was really cool to see.

So I want to shift gears a bit now to tackle a somewhat controversial issue,

and that is gatekeeping in the outdoors.

So in really basic terms for people who may not know, gatekeeping is when

information about a place in nature or a trail is limited to an inner circle.

That inner circle may gatekeep the knowledge from others.

I personally only became aware of gatekeeping in recent years, honestly.

I really started to think about it during the pandemic.

And that was because I was spending way more time online than I normally had.

And there was a big surge in people spending time

outdoors for obvious reasons.

And I started noticing arguments erupting in the comments of

videos of reels and tech talks.

So someone would share a video about a place or a hike and people in

the comments would be angry saying.

Well, now look, you've ruined it because now everyone knows about it.

So that's what I've been noticing.

That's sort of what brought my attention to the issue.

I'm curious, Taryn, how you originally became aware of the concept of

gatekeeping, how you've seen it play out yourself, and if there's anything you want

to add about what you would define it as.

Sure, yeah, I think like definitely a lot of people are more aware of gatekeeping

since the pandemic and since sort of the rise of social media, like even, you know,

mostly Instagram, even before TikTok, but I've been online and talking about the

outdoors online since the early 2000s, like forum culture and stuff like that,

and I didn't have a name for it then, but it certainly was happening there,

and I, my sense is that gatekeeping is something that's happened in the outdoor

community Always, even before things were online, people didn't want to share

information with people under this guise of protection, this idea that if we don't

tell anyone, then they can't wreck our spot, um, whether that's wrecking it

by just making it busy or wrecking it by damaging the ecosystem or graffiti

or garbage or whatever you have you.

And like, this sort of like discussion about gatekeeping

seems to kind of go in waves.

I think we're, we hit another wave of it during the pandemic, but there

was an earlier wave, I'm going to say around 2017 or 18, when social

media and Instagram, really the impact on the outdoors was huge.

There was a whole outdoors aesthetic that became popular in the mainstream

that came from hiking culture.

And, uh, a lot of people were on social media doing photo shoots on top of

mountains, setting up tents in places that were not actually a campsite, just

to have a, you know, interesting photo.

And so there was a big push at that time, um, and even, uh, petitions and stuff.

towards Leave No Trace, the organization, uh, the American arm, which is the

founding arm, to create another principle of Leave No Trace that, uh, would say

something to the effect of do not geotag on Instagram because it will wreck places.

And people got really angry about geotagging.

People were cyberbullying each other on Instagram.

It was kind of crazy, um, for a little while there.

And basically Leave No Trace came out and said, like, we're not

going to create this principle.

The principle.

Be considerate of other users covers a lot of what you're talking about.

And what we can do is provide you with some guidelines, which are, you know,

like that you should think about what you're portraying in your image rather

than not geo tagging somewhere is what you're showing an ethical practice

or the best practice for this area.

Like can you want to tell people that you didn't, you set up your tent in a

place you're not allowed to camp, or maybe don't just set up in a place tent

you're not allowed to camp if you're not allowed to camp there just for a photo.

So.

They were also encouraging people to share information in the caption of

your photo or video about how you could respect that place or that you needed a

permit or, you know, like these sorts or that it was busy on weekends and maybe

you could visit on a weekday instead.

So there's lots of ways that Leave No Trace and some social media

creators were trying to avoid.

gatekeeping.

But the, the conversation just always seems to come back around.

The geotagging part of it is interesting too, because that's like another thing

that I see people get really upset about online is when like creators will

show a place but not say where it is.

And it's like, very obviously you're just.

Mining engagement through aesthetic, and it's like not doing any favors for anyone.

The algorithm really promotes that, right?

If you don't say where it is, then all your comments are, where is this?

Then the algorithm is like, you got lots of comments, we

should show this to people.

Exactly.

So there's two sides to the gatekeeping debate, let's say two common sides.

So what would you say is the argument of gatekeepers who are in favor?

of gatekeeping.

People say if we tell everyone about this place, people will

come and it will be too busy.

It will not be like it used to be.

Whatever it used to be was, people are always afraid of things changing.

They believe that increased traffic will lead to environmental degradation, or,

you know, garbage, that kind of thing.

Gatekeepers often argue that if you are an expert or a local, you will know enough

to find out about this place on your own, and that beginners or tourists or

visitors or less experienced people do not deserve to know about these places,

um, and that you should sort of earn your way to getting to know about these places.

So it's...

They make an argument that there is a skill or experience required before

you get to learn about somewhere, so that gatekeeping is justified

because you need to sort of become

worthy.

You need to earn it.

Yeah.

I'm really angry about that.

We're gonna come back to it though and ask, what do people

who are against gatekeeping argue?

Well, I would argue that the internet is vast, and that if one person gatekeeps

something, there's enough on the internet that you're going to find out about

it somewhere else, so it's useless.

It's also, I think, gatekeeping really doesn't provide people with the

information they need to visit a place.

So, if we know that gatekeeping probably doesn't work, and the people who want

to go are going to find out about it a different way, Wouldn't it be

helpful if we gave them the tips that they needed to go there responsibly?

About what gear they needed to bring, about how to keep themselves safe,

you know, about what it was going to be like when they were there, if

they had the fitness and skills for them to evaluate themselves, if it's

a responsible place for them to be.

The other thing that I think is sometimes not talked about enough about

gatekeeping is that gatekeeping almost...

Purposely excludes people who are already excluded from the outdoors.

So the outdoors is traditionally male, white, privileged, people

who have the money and the time to spend in the outdoors.

And so by gatekeeping, it doesn't allow women, people of color, Um, people

who are less fit or athletic, LGBTQ folks, people who are traditionally

excluded from outdoor spaces.

It doesn't allow them an easy way to come in.

Yeah.

So I think you've outed yourself as a non gatekeeper officially.

We kind of like talked about this over email and I was laughing

because you were like, I think you know what my position is.

And I was like, I think you know what mine is, but yeah, outing both

of us really as against gatekeeping.

So yeah, you've already touched on.

a few of the red flags that come with gatekeeping.

And I want to dig into them in a bit more detail.

Um, the first one I wanted to talk about, you've already touched on, but

yeah, it has to do with accessibility and representation in the outdoors.

This is something that we've talked about on curious.

tourism before back in season three, I think it was episode 54.

Um, we talked with traveler Mario Rigby about how people of color and

low income people have historically been excluded from outdoor spaces.

And since the community does continue to be overwhelmingly white, I think

gatekeeping is definitely contributing as a barrier to people who've not had.

Equitable access to the outdoors.

You've said already that you think it's a red flag, um, about

gatekeeping, this aspect of it.

What do you think we need to do to communicate this to people that, that

still want to justify their gatekeeping as being protection of the outdoors?

I

mean, I, this happens to me a lot.

I run a pretty big hiking Facebook group for the, for BC.

And one of our rules is no gatekeeping, um, and that you

have to share your location.

If you don't want to share your location, you can't share it in the group.

Uh, so we run into this fairly often in the group.

And people, when you are able to speak to them, sort of one on one and explain

things to them, do seem to kind of come around sometimes to the point that...

It might be helpful if you provided information about a place in a way that

encouraged people to go in a responsible way and you can also do things like say,

I went here, here's how responsible, a responsible way to go here, but here

are some other places that are like this place that are easier to get to or, you

know, like have a safer or shorter trail.

Like, so you can provide alternatives for people and say, like, here's

more places that are like this.

Here's an adventure you can have that is

like mine.

Yeah, because that's like another thing that I've I've seen people argue is like

people will see these places posted online and think like it's a walk in the park to

get to that location and then they go out and do it and they're not prepared and

it can lead to like really bad outcomes.

But I do think like you've made a really good point about how all of this is about

like contextualizing what you're posting and sharing like the relevant information.

So making sure that if you're sharing a location that is for a more

experienced hiker or trekker explaining that so that the reader knows.

And I love the idea of giving alternatives because then people can

still have like a similar experience without putting themselves at risk.

And there are some interesting creators making Instagram rules, reels, and Tik

Toks in a like humorous way about like you know, how hard hiking is, right?

Like, they make fun of themselves about huffing and puffing or climbing

over rocks and things like that.

And it's, it's, it's funny, but it's also true, right?

Like, what they're doing is a pretty common experience for a

lot of people tackling that trail.

It is hard.

Like, you know, it's not just that beautiful shiny haired selfie at the top.

There is like, lots of sweat grunting on the way there.

And the thing is, like, things can go wrong when you're in the outdoors,

like, especially when you're far away from, from resources that can help

you, like medical resources and such.

And these are all things that people need to keep in mind.

It's, it's part of, like, the responsibility of spending

time outdoors, I would say.

Because anytime something does go wrong, then you're relying on, on

resources and people to, to rescue you.

Another factor I wanted to touch on This is something I've also seen people debate.

And the debate has been that in some scenarios gatekeeping is, is acceptable.

And the example that I've seen given is related to Indigenous land, and people

sometimes argue that it is fair that Indigenous people gatekeep parts of their

land for the sake of keeping it protected.

And there are scenarios where land is sacred and they want to keep

it protected for their community.

Um, in the indigenous context, I'm curious your thoughts on this.

If this is something that's being discussed in the Leave No Trace community.

I think

that the term gatekeeping can be defined in a few different ways.

And I wouldn't define an indigenous group keeping parts of their land for

themselves as gatekeeping, just as like, I wouldn't say that a park who has decided

some area is too ecologically vulnerable to have anyone visit is gatekeeping or.

You know, like some area you know is closed for wildlife for one

month a year for hiking like I don't think that's gatekeeping.

I think that's An informed and educated land manager making a decision about

the best thing to happen in that area.

I think that if you are a keyboard warrior at home shaming other people

on the internet for what they are and aren't sharing and what is, isn't,

isn't the right activity in an area is very different than someone who has got

years of oral tradition and cultural knowledge or science backing them to

make a decision as a land manager.

Absolutely.

It's a very different context.

Okay, so we have to talk more about social media because it just plays into

to the gatekeeping argument so much.

So in recent years, social media platforms have been bringing increased attention

to parks, trails and open spaces.

You talked a little bit about how you noticed that especially starting

in 2017, there was sort of this move towards like aesthetic outdoors.

And during the pandemic, it definitely blew up a lot as well.

So visibility on social media has for sure been part of the reason

why some parks in North America are seeing huge rises in visitors.

Um, so for example, I looked it up, uh, Banff national park has

had a 26 percent increase in visitors between 2014 and 2022.

This makes sense.

I have heard.

People in Banff talk about how over tourism is becoming an issue there.

And while it's a great thing that more people want to spend time in

nature, these big increases in visitor visitors do have the potential to harm

the parks and to cause over tourism.

So I'm curious about your thoughts on sharing outdoor spaces online.

In general, in your mind, do people sharing outdoor spaces have

responsibilities when it comes to

how they share?

Yeah, I definitely think people sharing online have a responsibility.

Um, you know, like there's definitely a difference between someone who, you know,

is sharing something online in a private Instagram account for their friends, um,

versus someone with a large following.

But I think that they both have a responsibility.

Um, and it's something that I think about a lot.

So.

You know, I wrote a hiking guidebook, it came out in 2021,

and in the research phase of that book, I was really conflicted about

like, what do I put in this book?

Right?

Because I'm going to be putting 40 backpacking trips.

So 40 places you can camp in the back country, which has a much

greater impact than hiking because you're going to be sitting and

putting your tent on the ground.

You're going to be cooking, you're going to be pooping.

Um, so your impact is much greater than a day use visitor.

And I was really conflicted about what do I put in this book?

What.

is ethical to include as a destination because yes, you know, social media

is the, and the internet are big drivers of traffic to things, but

a book, you know, as traditional media still has a lot of impact.

You know, it still is saying these are the 40 places that we

think you should be visiting.

One of the things that I sort of decided for myself during that project was that

I wanted to make sure that I was sharing places that had an existing land manager.

So, sort of land management landscapes across the world.

Here in Canada, hikes are either in provincial or national parks or

they're on crown land, which is land that belongs to all the government.

And I wanted to make sure that if hikes were on crown land, that they were in

BC anyway, um, they can be a recognized trail that's registered with the

provincial government with an organization called Sites and Trails BC and is

administered usually by a volunteer club.

So if, for example, Increased traffic was to result of the result because of

my work that the land manager in place already had the legal framework to say,

like, we need to do trail maintenance.

We need to install an outhouse.

We need to make sure that there is a reservation system in place

to prevent overcrowding because if there was no protection and no lab

manager in place, the first step would be like, okay, we need to get

this place designated and protected before we can do any of this stuff.

And those processes are slow.

You know, it could take years to get the necessary permits in place to,

to do something, which is not to say that I only share things outside of

the book that have a lab manager.

I do share other things, but.

I thought very carefully about it for the book and I do think very carefully about

what I share on my social media and my website and if I'm sharing places with

no protection, I'm very clear about the fact that they have no protection and what

could happen with increased traffic and how you need to be so much more careful.

Another thing that I do is to try and advocate for the protection of

those places and include information.

If I'm sharing about like, did you like this hike?

You should write to your elected official about making this

a park or designated trail.

You should join a trail advocacy group.

You should volunteer for trail maintenance.

You can help with this problem instead of just complaining.

The trails are so busy, there's nowhere to go.

This one is a mess.

There's garbage everywhere.

Well do something about it.

Yeah.

Wow.

You just made me think of a trail that I often hike here in Ontario.

It's, it's a little north of Toronto and it's crown land and

people are always complaining that there's no garbage facilities.

So you've just made me realize I need to write in about

this because there should be.

It's a really popular place.

Like lots of people go.

It's, it's kind of strange that there are no facilities available at this point.

Okay, so we've touched on a few of the majorly debated points

when it comes to gatekeeping.

Are there any that I missed that you think everyone should know?

I think that like the main thing that we've kind of covered but I'd

really want to reinforce is like the nature is for everyone, right?

Like.

You were a beginner once, you know, no matter where you started, maybe you

had the privilege to have your parents or introduce you or a family member

introduce you to the outdoors, or you were part of a club at university,

um, or in your community, but that's not the reality for most people.

Everyone has to start somewhere.

And so why not help?

Why not help people get into the outdoors in the responsible way?

That brings me to something I was going to say about gatekeeping.

And I can say it now, I know it's a safe space, but it gives me

like a bit of an elitist vibe.

It like controls who like has access to it, who deserves access to it

based on like how much quote unquote experience they have in the outdoors.

And it makes me uncomfy, especially because I was never someone who like.

Like, I grew up, like, spending time outdoors, yes, but I was never a big

camper, never a big hiker with my family.

It's something that I've, like, learned on myself growing up as an adult.

And yeah, I have even noticed, like, myself, there is a sort of, like, it's

almost like a pyramid of, like, how experienced you are in the outdoors

and, like, you never feel like you're, like, climbing that pyramid because

people are always better than you.

It's really strange, especially as a woman in the community.

Yeah,

the outdoor community can be both, you know, lovely and welcoming and

also elitist and super competitive.

And it just, you look at the origins of the outdoor.

Like community and it's privileged white men climbing the Alps.

Um, like that's where it starts from, right?

And then they spread out all over the world.

And I mean, like, it's great.

It's beautiful.

There's lots of people doing it now from, you know, all over the world.

It's not just white men anymore.

Um, but that's, that's where it started from.

That's the culture.

You know, we talked about this a little bit.

We did an episode last year on Everest on the first all black team of climbers

to to get to the top of Everest.

And we talked a bit about that, about how like Everest has that history as well.

It's like literally all over the globe.

But yeah, well, thank you so much.

This has been really great.

I've learned a lot about Leave No Trace and about gatekeeping.

Before we wrap up, I wanted to ask what are some responsible ways that people

can visit your space, Squamish, and if you have any recommendations for what

people should do while they're there.

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're going to visit Squamish, the name of our town

is the name of the Indigenous people who have lived here since time immemorial,

so, um, let's be respectful of that.

Um, you can learn some of the Squamish place names.

For things and, um, some of the, like, local history of Squamish.

So, I'd actually encourage anyone visiting Squamish to, uh, visit

Whistler as well because it's just up the road and it's beautiful.

But the Squamish Lil Wat Cultural Centre is there.

Um, which is one of the best Indigenous museums in Canada that I've been to.

Um, your admission gets you a tour, um, with a Squamish or Lil Wat

person who will walk you through the exhibits and explain not just...

The culture and history of the people from sort of a general perspective,

but also how they are personally personal culture and history really

relates to the exhibits, what cultural practices they partake in.

Um, so it's a really interesting way to connect with the landscape

here because you know, like a lot of the place names and ceremonies and

stuff are grounded in the outdoors.

So if you're going to come here and come hiking or mountain biking, um,

it's great to know those things.

But yeah, as we were talking about earlier, if you're going to come to

Suwamish, uh, you should hike the Suwamish Chief, or the Chief, as we call it.

It's a beautiful hike.

It's tough.

Um, yes.

But, uh, there's lots of other, um, beautiful, short, easier hikes.

around, uh, you can take the Sea to Sky gondola up, uh, and look at the view and

go for some of the easy hikes up there.

My, uh, aging in laws enjoy doing that.

And if you've never rock climbed or mountain biked before, um,

this is a great place to try it.

And if you're too nervous to try it, I think that you should just go for

a hike and watch people doing it.

Because people are really exciting to watch here.

Mhm.

Squamish is actually where I started rock climbing because my friend out there

rock climbs and she said what you said.

I was terrified to do it and she was like, no, you have to do it.

I'm making you try this.

And I did.

And now I'm hooked.

I've been doing it for like six years now.

Okay.

So Taryn, where can people find you if they want to read

your work or get in touch

with you?

Uh, so I'm at happiestoutdoors.

ca and, uh, I'm happiestoutdoors on social.

I'm sort of not as active as I was once, uh, on social.

The algorithm is, uh, you know, volatile and discouraging.

Um, but yeah, but yeah, you can, uh, you can, you can follow me.

Uh, my, my website is the best place.

Um, and if you're interested in backpacking in BC.

My newsletter is probably the place that I'm the most active.

You can sign up for that on my website.

Awesome.

And actually this is like just another rapid fire question because I think

you're a great person to answer this.

If someone is nervous to start getting outdoors and doing these things

like trying rock climbing or trying backpacking or even just going on

their first hike, um, what advice do you have for them to get started?

Everyone was scared first, at first, so it's okay that you're scared.

You know, if you're the kind of person who doing research helps, um, do less of

research, do less of reading, it'll make you feel better and feel confident to go.

You're the kind of person who needs a group to go.

There are lots of, um, like community groups you can join,

meet up groups, Facebook groups, um, or, you know, friends.

Um, or take a course or a class.

There's lots of ways to get out there.

Well, that's it for Season 6 of Curious Tourism.

Thanks so much for joining us this season.

We're going to go on break for a while so that we can work

on some awesome new episodes.

Although we don't know exactly when those new episodes will

drop, we can promise you that.

you that they will arrive in your feed in the new year.

So stay tuned.

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Curious Tourism is written and hosted by me, Erin Hines.

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