Audioboom

Transcript for Supporting new parents through adversity – part one

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INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

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INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child

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INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the

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INTRODUCTION: organisation.

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INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

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INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all

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INTRODUCTION: work together to keep babies, children and

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INTRODUCTION: young people safe.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. Today's two-part

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): episode is all about early

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention and supporting new

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): parents through adversity, to

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): ensure the best outcomes for

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): them and their child.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): You're going to hear a conversation between

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin Smy and Ged Docherty.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin works at the NSPCC's

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start Service.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start is a

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 10-year national lottery funded

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme to transform services

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in the town and change

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): childhoods through lived experience,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): science and evidence.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Ged Docherty is a Team Manager

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at one of Blackpool Better Start's

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 40 funded services, For Baby's

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Sake. For Baby's Sake is a

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme for expectant parents

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that takes a whole family approach,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): starting in pregnancy and

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): dealing with the entire cycle

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and history of domestic abuse,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): identifying and directly

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): addressing the trauma or traumas

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that lie at the heart of the problem.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin and Ged's conversation,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): recorded in September 2023,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will cover the importance of

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the first 1001 days of a

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): child's life and how For Baby's

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Sake uses therapeutic,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): trauma-informed and strengths-based

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): approaches to support parents

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): going through adversity during

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the early years.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Whilst the discussion focuses

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on the early years, the techniques

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that Ged mentions in this podcast

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): should be useful inspiration

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): for professionals working with

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families at any stage of the

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): parental journey.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion will be interspersed

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): with clips from an interview we

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): filmed earlier this year with

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Jake and Charlotte, two parents

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): who are participating in the

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): For Baby's Sake programme.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Jake and Charlotte are parents

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to a little girl, Isabella, who

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): you may hear playing and babbling

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in the background of the recordings.

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The couple faced adversity when

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Charlotte was pregnant with Isabella — Jake

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): was in prison for domestic abuse

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): — but For Baby's Sake worked with

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): them to overcome these challenges,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): better handle complex emotions

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and form trusting relationships

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in order to best care for baby

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Isabella. As part of the

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme, Jake and Charlotte each

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): have a therapeutic practitioner,

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Owen and Karen, who you will

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): also hear talking in these

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): clips. In the first clip, Jake

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and Charlotte explain how they came

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GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to work with For Baby's Sake.

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OWEN: So Jake, what were your expectations of working with

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OWEN: For Baby's Sake?

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JAKE: Um, well, obviously,

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JAKE: as you know, at the time I was in custody when

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JAKE: the referral went in, and Isabella wasn't born yet.

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JAKE: I was struggling with building a healthy relationship

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JAKE: with, obviously, with my daughter and

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JAKE: my partner Charlotte.

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JAKE: And you know, so I was

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JAKE: just expecting for just help to try and, you

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JAKE: know, help me understand my emotions and understand

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JAKE: how to be a dad, you know, and how to make those

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JAKE: relationships work.

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OWEN: Brilliant. And how have you found the service of far

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OWEN: then?

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JAKE: Really good. I mean, as I touched on a minute ago,

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JAKE: obviously you yourself came to see me while I was in

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JAKE: custody. We did a bit of work then, and then

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JAKE: everything carried on after release as well.

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JAKE: I was expecting maybe a bit of time, like, to get

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JAKE: things sorted out, but it was seamless and then, you

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JAKE: know, I continue obviously to work together today,

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JAKE: which is great.

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KAREN: So what was the experience like for you, Charlotte?

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KAREN: We've just heard from Jake. What was the experience

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KAREN: like for you?

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CHARLOTTE: Well, it made me feel like I could speak

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CHARLOTTE: about things that were bothering me in a safe

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CHARLOTTE: space and that

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CHARLOTTE: it would teach us to be able to do that

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CHARLOTTE: on our own in the future rather than with

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CHARLOTTE: you two next to us. And it just gives us that

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CHARLOTTE: — I don't really use the word lesson — but it

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CHARLOTTE: just helps us be able to

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CHARLOTTE: learn how to do that on our own and it

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CHARLOTTE: will benefit us in the future because

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CHARLOTTE: that's something that we can use constantly

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CHARLOTTE: around Isabella or, like I said, without you

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CHARLOTTE: there.

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COLIN SMY: Welcome, everybody.

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COLIN SMY: We're here talking about supporting parents

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COLIN SMY: today. My name is Colin Smy and I'm a

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COLIN SMY: Development Manager at Blackpool Better Start.

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COLIN SMY: Blackpool Better Start is a ten-year lottery

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COLIN SMY: funded programme. We're working with families

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COLIN SMY: in deprived areas from pregnancy to age

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COLIN SMY: four and we're trying to identify the

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COLIN SMY: opportunities for them to improve their life

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COLIN SMY: chances across a range of things, including

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COLIN SMY: health, diet, nutrition, school readiness,

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COLIN SMY: social emotional wellbeing and healthy gestation

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COLIN SMY: in birth and pregnancy.

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COLIN SMY: With me today is Ged Docherty.

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COLIN SMY: Would you like to introduce yourself, Ged.

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GED DOCHERTY: Afternoon, everyone. My name's Ged Docherty

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GED DOCHERTY: and I'm the Team Manager of the Blackpool

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GED DOCHERTY: For Baby's Sake team.

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GED DOCHERTY: We are a specialist

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GED DOCHERTY: thematic team who work in

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GED DOCHERTY: a trauma-informed, empathic

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GED DOCHERTY: way with pregnant couples

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GED DOCHERTY: who are experiencing domestic violence,

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GED DOCHERTY: either currently or in the past, in

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GED DOCHERTY: their relationship.

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GED DOCHERTY: We offer a unique approach

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GED DOCHERTY: into how we work

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GED DOCHERTY: with those co-parents in that

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GED DOCHERTY: mum gets a worker and dad gets a worker.

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GED DOCHERTY: And we follow a specific

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GED DOCHERTY: evidence-based programme approach

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GED DOCHERTY: to the work. We start in pregnancy

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GED DOCHERTY: around viable pregnancy time, so

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GED DOCHERTY: 15 weeks onwards, and we can

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GED DOCHERTY: remain working with that family with their

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GED DOCHERTY: consent until the child's second

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GED DOCHERTY: birthday — so the first critical 1001

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GED DOCHERTY: days of a child's life.

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COLIN SMY: That's fantastic, Ged.

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COLIN SMY: And that leads nicely into the first two areas

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COLIN SMY: we're talking about. In Better Start and the

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COLIN SMY: Centre for Early Child Development, we like to

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COLIN SMY: always talk about the 1001 days and why they're

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COLIN SMY: so critical.

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COLIN SMY: What for you — and we've spoken about this

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COLIN SMY: regularly at different times — but what for you

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COLIN SMY: is so important about those first 1001 days that

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COLIN SMY: you see in families and the challenges in

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COLIN SMY: Blackpool?

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GED DOCHERTY: We both know, because we've worked in the

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GED DOCHERTY: town for a very long time, that there are

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GED DOCHERTY: lots of complex issues which

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GED DOCHERTY: are unique to the families

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GED DOCHERTY: in our town.

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GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool is top of the list for all

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GED DOCHERTY: the right reasons and it's the top of the

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GED DOCHERTY: list for all the wrong reasons.

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GED DOCHERTY: Some of the families that we serve live in

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GED DOCHERTY: the poorest ward in England,

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GED DOCHERTY: so poverty in and of itself has a massive

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GED DOCHERTY: detrimental impact on a child

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GED DOCHERTY: and their family's outcomes without

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GED DOCHERTY: the additional complex needs associated

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GED DOCHERTY: with their parents, their parent's childhood,

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GED DOCHERTY: and their parent's past.

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GED DOCHERTY: I am a social worker by profession and I've

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GED DOCHERTY: worked with children and families for 30

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GED DOCHERTY: years, and across that spectrum of my

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GED DOCHERTY: practice, my learning has

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GED DOCHERTY: continued, grown, developed our

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GED DOCHERTY: understanding of children and babies

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GED DOCHERTY: and families functioning and their

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GED DOCHERTY: capacity has grown and developed.

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GED DOCHERTY: And the For Baby's Sake model of practice,

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GED DOCHERTY: which was developed some ten years ago,

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GED DOCHERTY: clearly tells us that the work

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GED DOCHERTY: that has been undertaken with families —

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GED DOCHERTY: targeted thematic work which takes

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GED DOCHERTY: into account intergenerational

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GED DOCHERTY: cycles of harm — that how we can support

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GED DOCHERTY: families to break those cycles and that we

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GED DOCHERTY: can potentially improve a child's

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GED DOCHERTY: healthy outcomes, emotional

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GED DOCHERTY: and social, across their lifespan.

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GED DOCHERTY: And that is significant

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GED DOCHERTY: beyond comprehension.

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COLIN SMY: Yeah, and there's a number of

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COLIN SMY: reports that we come across quite regularly, and

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COLIN SMY: it certainly made it to a parliamentary level

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COLIN SMY: now, where we've seen start for life funding

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COLIN SMY: recently looking at the first 1001 days

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COLIN SMY: and the impact on that. We talk about word gaps.

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COLIN SMY: Children and babies are quite often not exposed

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COLIN SMY: to that speech and language and the

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COLIN SMY: opportunities to learn and be able to

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COLIN SMY: communicate. And we know that the brain develops

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COLIN SMY: most rapidly at that early stage; starts out

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COLIN SMY: quite smooth and flat and all those neurones

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COLIN SMY: firing about with all the input that goes on.

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COLIN SMY: It's really important that we've got the

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COLIN SMY: opportunity for those babies to experience

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COLIN SMY: what's required for the inputs without it being

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COLIN SMY: over the top, without being negative, without

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COLIN SMY: being toxic.

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COLIN SMY: It's a bit like finding a Goldilocks zone

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COLIN SMY: sometimes, isn't it? But it doesn't have to

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COLIN SMY: quite that complicated — not astrophysics — does

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COLIN SMY: it?

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GED DOCHERTY: No. And it's really significant that you

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GED DOCHERTY: mention that, because integral to the work

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GED DOCHERTY: that we do in For Baby's Sake is that we

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GED DOCHERTY: support parents to understand via

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GED DOCHERTY: the Alberta wellness brain

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GED DOCHERTY: training — accredited training

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GED DOCHERTY: that is free for anyone — is that we support

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GED DOCHERTY: our parents in the way that parents now

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GED DOCHERTY: know the harmful impacts of

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GED DOCHERTY: smoking and alcohol during pregnancy.

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GED DOCHERTY: They now understand the impacts on their

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GED DOCHERTY: baby's developing brain of the stress

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GED DOCHERTY: hormone cortisol, which can be present

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GED DOCHERTY: if someone is a victim experiencing

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GED DOCHERTY: consistent forms of domestic violence

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GED DOCHERTY: and other associated abuse behaviours.

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GED DOCHERTY: So when we capture parents at that

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GED DOCHERTY: critical moment in time, whilst the baby's in

00:10:03,460 → 00:10:06,579

GED DOCHERTY: utero, and we develop their understanding of

00:10:06,580 → 00:10:09,219

GED DOCHERTY: the harm that can be caused, people then can

00:10:09,220 → 00:10:10,569

GED DOCHERTY: make safer choices.

00:10:10,570 → 00:10:13,239

GED DOCHERTY: In the past, the countless times that I would

00:10:13,240 → 00:10:15,039

GED DOCHERTY: have conversations with parents and they

00:10:15,040 → 00:10:16,989

GED DOCHERTY: would say, "what you on about?

00:10:16,990 → 00:10:19,449

GED DOCHERTY: The kids were upstairs," or "well, the baby's

00:10:19,450 → 00:10:22,599

GED DOCHERTY: inside. What harm is it coming to?

00:10:22,600 → 00:10:24,369

GED DOCHERTY: I never touched her." But they have no

00:10:24,370 → 00:10:27,639

GED DOCHERTY: concept of the harm that was physically

00:10:27,640 → 00:10:30,189

GED DOCHERTY: taking place because that baby's mother was

00:10:30,190 → 00:10:33,669

GED DOCHERTY: stressed. So that is a significant

00:10:33,670 → 00:10:36,639

GED DOCHERTY: piece of learning that we undertake with

00:10:36,640 → 00:10:39,999

GED DOCHERTY: parents at that critical moment in time.

00:10:40,000 → 00:10:43,119

GED DOCHERTY: And then when we've established that

00:10:43,120 → 00:10:46,149

GED DOCHERTY: groundwork, understanding, that

00:10:46,150 → 00:10:47,989

GED DOCHERTY: then forms the basis.

00:10:47,990 → 00:10:50,019

GED DOCHERTY: That's like our foundation.

00:10:50,020 → 00:10:53,259

GED DOCHERTY: And then we begin to build upon and build

00:10:53,260 → 00:10:56,139

GED DOCHERTY: upon and bring all of the other learning in

00:10:56,140 → 00:10:59,499

GED DOCHERTY: too; about people's capacity to learn

00:10:59,500 → 00:11:02,799

GED DOCHERTY: how to self-soothe, self-regulate, make safer

00:11:02,800 → 00:11:05,829

GED DOCHERTY: choices, function in a different way,

00:11:05,830 → 00:11:08,919

GED DOCHERTY: understand their past and the impact that

00:11:08,920 → 00:11:11,559

GED DOCHERTY: their parents' past and the grandparents'

00:11:11,560 → 00:11:14,529

GED DOCHERTY: past has had on their functioning

00:11:14,530 → 00:11:17,319

GED DOCHERTY: and how they deal with situations.

00:11:17,320 → 00:11:20,109

COLIN SMY: Yeah, and I think what's interesting is how

00:11:20,110 → 00:11:22,929

COLIN SMY: we're able to move through the pillars of what

00:11:22,930 → 00:11:25,119

COLIN SMY: Better Start's looking at there and introduce it

00:11:25,120 → 00:11:27,039

COLIN SMY: around speech, language and communication and

00:11:27,040 → 00:11:29,199

COLIN SMY: being able to verbalise emotions.

00:11:29,200 → 00:11:30,819

COLIN SMY: And actually what you're able to talk about

00:11:30,820 → 00:11:32,889

COLIN SMY: there, moving into is the social and emotional

00:11:32,890 → 00:11:34,449

COLIN SMY: development we're looking at, and that's the

00:11:34,450 → 00:11:36,189

COLIN SMY: critical— one of the other critical elements of

00:11:36,190 → 00:11:39,189

COLIN SMY: that first 1001 days: that babies

00:11:39,190 → 00:11:41,649

COLIN SMY: learn about how to regulate emotion, how to

00:11:41,650 → 00:11:44,259

COLIN SMY: build relationships with caregivers.

00:11:44,260 → 00:11:47,169

COLIN SMY: And I'm not going to try and be clever and list

00:11:47,170 → 00:11:49,685

COLIN SMY: all the chemicals off, cortisol and oxytocin

00:11:50,920 → 00:11:53,619

COLIN SMY: and the other ones, but they're all firing and

00:11:53,620 → 00:11:55,809

COLIN SMY: going away about how they manage those

00:11:55,810 → 00:11:57,489

COLIN SMY: relationships. And it's interesting when you say

00:11:57,490 → 00:12:00,489

COLIN SMY: about self-soothing as well, as adults how

00:12:00,490 → 00:12:02,409

COLIN SMY: we do it, but it's understanding that as

00:12:02,410 → 00:12:04,635

COLIN SMY: children and as babies, when we're a caregiver,

00:12:04,636 → 00:12:06,999

COLIN SMY: and we can see the difference between those

00:12:07,000 → 00:12:09,219

COLIN SMY: children, can't we, that we work with in the

00:12:09,220 → 00:12:12,369

COLIN SMY: families who are overfamiliar,

00:12:12,370 → 00:12:13,659

COLIN SMY: underfamiliar...

00:12:13,660 → 00:12:15,549

COLIN SMY: The behaviours around different people are

00:12:15,550 → 00:12:18,579

COLIN SMY: different because they might come to— when we

00:12:18,580 → 00:12:21,069

COLIN SMY: talk about self-soothing and crying sometimes

00:12:21,070 → 00:12:23,019

COLIN SMY: actually it's understanding what that baby's

00:12:23,020 → 00:12:25,029

COLIN SMY: telling you by crying.

00:12:25,030 → 00:12:27,759

COLIN SMY: They're not using words and our language, but

00:12:27,760 → 00:12:29,469

COLIN SMY: they're using the language that's open to them

00:12:29,470 → 00:12:31,299

COLIN SMY: to try to get attention, to try to get

00:12:31,300 → 00:12:33,219

COLIN SMY: affection, to try to get the love, and

00:12:33,220 → 00:12:35,709

COLIN SMY: understanding that actually it's okay for babies

00:12:35,710 → 00:12:39,279

COLIN SMY: to cry. And you responding

00:12:39,280 → 00:12:41,891

COLIN SMY: to them isn't spoiling them.

00:12:41,892 → 00:12:45,009

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah. It's okay for parents to

00:12:45,010 → 00:12:48,459

GED DOCHERTY: say, "my baby crying is stressing

00:12:48,460 → 00:12:51,009

GED DOCHERTY: me out." We know, because we talk all the

00:12:51,010 → 00:12:53,709

GED DOCHERTY: time about working with especially the dads

00:12:53,710 → 00:12:56,409

GED DOCHERTY: in our town — and I don't mean to generalise

00:12:56,410 → 00:12:59,799

GED DOCHERTY: or make it gender specific — but we know

00:12:59,800 → 00:13:03,129

GED DOCHERTY: that there are dads in our town whose

00:13:03,130 → 00:13:06,399

GED DOCHERTY: capacity to know how to be the best parent

00:13:06,400 → 00:13:09,609

GED DOCHERTY: possible is limited, and that's

00:13:09,610 → 00:13:13,239

GED DOCHERTY: because of structural inequalities

00:13:13,240 → 00:13:16,034

GED DOCHERTY: within the service provision in our town.

00:13:16,035 → 00:13:18,459

GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool is making huge strides forward in

00:13:18,460 → 00:13:21,249

GED DOCHERTY: all of the new services and training

00:13:21,250 → 00:13:23,581

GED DOCHERTY: opportunities for parents, run by parents,

00:13:23,582 → 00:13:26,169

GED DOCHERTY: run by professionals, that everyone can

00:13:26,170 → 00:13:29,829

GED DOCHERTY: access. And our dads are gaining

00:13:29,830 → 00:13:32,889

GED DOCHERTY: confidence in how they are

00:13:32,890 → 00:13:35,889

GED DOCHERTY: approaching their role as a parent and

00:13:35,890 → 00:13:39,039

GED DOCHERTY: a partner. And a partner in terms of being

00:13:39,040 → 00:13:42,069

GED DOCHERTY: a co-parent, not just a partner to

00:13:42,070 → 00:13:43,779

GED DOCHERTY: your significant other.

00:13:43,780 → 00:13:46,899

GED DOCHERTY: It's about the partnership of parenting

00:13:46,900 → 00:13:47,491

GED DOCHERTY: that baby.

00:13:47,492 → 00:13:50,739

COLIN SMY: And we saw that in the

00:13:50,740 → 00:13:54,009

COLIN SMY: recording from a couple of your parents — Jake

00:13:54,010 → 00:13:54,879

COLIN SMY: and Charlotte.

00:13:54,880 → 00:13:55,599

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah.

00:13:55,600 → 00:13:56,889

COLIN SMY: Jake talks quite a bit.

00:13:56,890 → 00:13:59,709

COLIN SMY: And it's interesting because when he's been

00:13:59,710 → 00:14:02,119

COLIN SMY: through For Baby's Sake with your team — I think

00:14:02,120 → 00:14:04,659

COLIN SMY: it's Owen he worked with wasn't it — and he's

00:14:04,660 → 00:14:07,269

COLIN SMY: actually reflected on the way he's changed and

00:14:07,270 → 00:14:09,719

COLIN SMY: the impact of his parenting before, the impact

00:14:09,720 → 00:14:11,319

COLIN SMY: of parenting afterwards, but also the impact of

00:14:11,320 → 00:14:12,699

COLIN SMY: his behaviour on his partner.

00:14:12,700 → 00:14:15,189

COLIN SMY: So he stopped thinking to himself "he's dad on

00:14:15,190 → 00:14:17,889

COLIN SMY: his own, she's mum on her own, and that's baby

00:14:17,890 → 00:14:20,019

COLIN SMY: on her own", and started thinking of themselves

00:14:20,020 → 00:14:22,599

COLIN SMY: as a family, as a triad, and all reliant on one

00:14:22,600 → 00:14:23,349

COLIN SMY: another.

00:14:23,350 → 00:14:26,739

JAKE: Me in the past, being obviously a perpetrator of

00:14:26,740 → 00:14:29,349

JAKE: domestic violence and domestic abuse, it's been,

00:14:30,400 → 00:14:33,759

JAKE: you know, my whole perception of a relationship

00:14:33,760 → 00:14:36,219

JAKE: was completely out of order and wrong.

00:14:36,220 → 00:14:39,579

JAKE: It wasn't healthy. It's never been healthy and

00:14:39,580 → 00:14:42,879

JAKE: it's kind of given me ways to change

00:14:42,880 → 00:14:46,029

JAKE: that and how to

00:14:46,030 → 00:14:48,639

JAKE: realise that, you know, things are normal.

00:14:48,640 → 00:14:51,339

JAKE: Like if Charlotte needs a bit of time to just go

00:14:51,340 → 00:14:54,339

JAKE: away, have her time, it's okay for that

00:14:54,340 → 00:14:56,409

JAKE: to happen. Instead of me being...

00:14:56,410 → 00:14:59,649

JAKE: Wanting to solve things there and then and stuff

00:14:59,650 → 00:15:02,483

JAKE: and I think that passes on. If someone's been violent

00:15:02,484 → 00:15:03,699

JAKE: towards a partner before.

00:15:04,900 → 00:15:08,019

JAKE: You know, it can easily happen to a family

00:15:08,020 → 00:15:09,202

JAKE: member, you know, a child that

00:15:11,230 → 00:15:13,929

JAKE: is there. I mean, someone who's violent and who has a

00:15:13,930 → 00:15:16,809

JAKE: violent outburst doesn't think what he's doing at the

00:15:16,810 → 00:15:18,297

JAKE: time nine times out of ten.

00:15:18,298 → 00:15:20,940

JAKE: It's just the red mist descends.

00:15:22,690 → 00:15:24,459

JAKE: The violent outburst happens. And then before you

00:15:24,460 → 00:15:27,459

JAKE: know it, you know, my child

00:15:27,460 → 00:15:28,460

JAKE: could be hurt.

00:15:29,320 → 00:15:30,320

JAKE: My partner could be hurt.

00:15:30,700 → 00:15:33,689

JAKE: And, I guess, trying to turn that

00:15:33,690 → 00:15:35,639

JAKE: violence into a more

00:15:36,780 → 00:15:39,929

JAKE: better managed behaviour that deals with that emotion

00:15:39,930 → 00:15:42,869

JAKE: that you're feeling is one of the best things that

00:15:42,870 → 00:15:45,899

JAKE: will keep that child safe and

00:15:45,900 → 00:15:49,109

JAKE: stop anything happening that could harm

00:15:49,110 → 00:15:49,409

JAKE: her.

00:15:49,410 → 00:15:52,439

GED DOCHERTY: Jake had significant adversity in his

00:15:52,440 → 00:15:55,289

GED DOCHERTY: past. And when we first met him, he was

00:15:55,290 → 00:15:57,569

GED DOCHERTY: serving a prison sentence.

00:15:57,570 → 00:15:59,669

GED DOCHERTY: But we were still able to work with him

00:15:59,670 → 00:16:01,229

GED DOCHERTY: whilst he was in prison.

00:16:01,230 → 00:16:04,109

GED DOCHERTY: We had virtual contact with him.

00:16:04,110 → 00:16:05,819

GED DOCHERTY: Owen went to see him face-to-face and did

00:16:05,820 → 00:16:08,309

GED DOCHERTY: programme work in the prison with him.

00:16:08,310 → 00:16:11,099

GED DOCHERTY: And then that work seamlessly continued when

00:16:11,100 → 00:16:14,189

GED DOCHERTY: he came out back into the community and

00:16:14,190 → 00:16:16,169

GED DOCHERTY: was living in his own place.

00:16:16,170 → 00:16:18,779

GED DOCHERTY: They were living separately at that time.

00:16:18,780 → 00:16:20,789

GED DOCHERTY: The baby had been subject to a child

00:16:20,790 → 00:16:23,789

GED DOCHERTY: protection plan and the evidence that was

00:16:23,790 → 00:16:26,639

GED DOCHERTY: being generated via the work that him and his

00:16:26,640 → 00:16:29,283

GED DOCHERTY: partner Charlotte were doing — our consistent

00:16:29,284 → 00:16:32,609

GED DOCHERTY: contact and feeding it into

00:16:32,610 → 00:16:34,611

GED DOCHERTY: that statutory social work process — to

00:16:35,880 → 00:16:38,844

GED DOCHERTY: the point where I came back from leave today

00:16:38,845 → 00:16:42,149

GED DOCHERTY: and was copied into an email, and the family

00:16:42,150 → 00:16:45,239

GED DOCHERTY: have stepped down to universal

00:16:45,240 → 00:16:48,599

GED DOCHERTY: services because there is no presenting

00:16:48,600 → 00:16:51,779

GED DOCHERTY: evidence of any risk to that child

00:16:51,780 → 00:16:53,549

GED DOCHERTY: because their parents have been utterly

00:16:53,550 → 00:16:55,979

GED DOCHERTY: committed to making those changes.

00:16:55,980 → 00:16:58,949

GED DOCHERTY: But you used the word reflect when you were

00:16:58,950 → 00:17:00,839

GED DOCHERTY: talking about some of the stuff that Jake had

00:17:00,840 → 00:17:03,929

GED DOCHERTY: said. Jake and Charlotte have

00:17:03,930 → 00:17:07,799

GED DOCHERTY: embraced the concept of reflection,

00:17:07,800 → 00:17:10,799

GED DOCHERTY: and they've used that to make their

00:17:10,800 → 00:17:13,889

GED DOCHERTY: situation safer, because they are

00:17:13,890 → 00:17:16,919

GED DOCHERTY: actively thinking about decisions that

00:17:16,920 → 00:17:19,169

GED DOCHERTY: they've made in the past, decisions they're

00:17:19,170 → 00:17:20,429

GED DOCHERTY: making in the present.

00:17:20,430 → 00:17:21,989

GED DOCHERTY: What is the right thing to do?

00:17:21,990 → 00:17:23,999

GED DOCHERTY: What is the safest thing to do?

00:17:24,000 → 00:17:26,098

GED DOCHERTY: Why did we end up in this situation?

00:17:26,099 → 00:17:27,838

GED DOCHERTY: What caused that to happen?

00:17:27,839 → 00:17:29,789

GED DOCHERTY: What could have been done differently?

00:17:31,020 → 00:17:33,779

GED DOCHERTY: And it's that taking ownership of all of

00:17:33,780 → 00:17:35,579

GED DOCHERTY: those aspects of your life and your

00:17:35,580 → 00:17:38,669

GED DOCHERTY: behaviour, owning it, talking

00:17:38,670 → 00:17:41,939

GED DOCHERTY: about it, sharing it, reflecting on it,

00:17:41,940 → 00:17:45,089

GED DOCHERTY: being curious, asking questions, asking

00:17:45,090 → 00:17:48,899

GED DOCHERTY: for advice, connecting to the community.

00:17:48,900 → 00:17:51,089

GED DOCHERTY: And that's another thing that is really

00:17:51,090 → 00:17:53,227

GED DOCHERTY: integral to the success of our For Baby's

00:17:53,228 → 00:17:54,929

GED DOCHERTY: Sake families.

00:17:54,930 → 00:17:58,439

GED DOCHERTY: We as a team actively promote

00:17:58,440 → 00:18:00,959

GED DOCHERTY: connection to the community and what the

00:18:00,960 → 00:18:03,809

GED DOCHERTY: services in Blackpool have to offer.

00:18:03,810 → 00:18:06,809

GED DOCHERTY: There is a whole portfolio of

00:18:06,810 → 00:18:09,779

GED DOCHERTY: stuff out there for those families to

00:18:09,780 → 00:18:10,221

GED DOCHERTY: connect to.

00:18:10,222 → 00:18:13,829

COLIN SMY: So there's a couple of things in unpicking

00:18:13,830 → 00:18:16,779

COLIN SMY: Jake and Charlotte's story from when we've

00:18:16,780 → 00:18:18,269

COLIN SMY: watched it and what you just said there.

00:18:18,270 → 00:18:20,759

COLIN SMY: And I know I've spoken already about, you know,

00:18:20,760 → 00:18:22,163

COLIN SMY: Better Start and the Centre for Early Child

00:18:22,164 → 00:18:23,849

COLIN SMY: Development. We talk about our pillars and we've

00:18:23,850 → 00:18:26,159

COLIN SMY: covered social emotional development, speech and

00:18:26,160 → 00:18:29,249

COLIN SMY: language. But there is also in there about

00:18:29,250 → 00:18:31,469

COLIN SMY: the pregnancy period and why healthy gestation

00:18:31,470 → 00:18:33,449

COLIN SMY: and birth is so vital to the baby.

00:18:33,450 → 00:18:34,503

COLIN SMY: And you've said about being in utero.

00:18:35,700 → 00:18:38,279

COLIN SMY: But in Jake and Charlotte's story, obviously

00:18:38,280 → 00:18:42,089

COLIN SMY: with Jake being incarcerated, and

00:18:42,090 → 00:18:44,219

COLIN SMY: a factor that we talk about regularly is

00:18:44,220 → 00:18:47,149

COLIN SMY: understanding what a trauma-informed approach is

00:18:47,150 → 00:18:49,259

COLIN SMY: and trauma-informed approach doesn't always just

00:18:49,260 → 00:18:52,109

COLIN SMY: have to be about the child or just about mum as

00:18:52,110 → 00:18:53,479

COLIN SMY: typically happens. In your example, we're

00:18:53,480 → 00:18:55,889

COLIN SMY: talking about dad, and I know in the video, both

00:18:55,890 → 00:18:58,439

COLIN SMY: Jake and Charlotte, but particularly Jake, talk

00:18:58,440 → 00:19:01,049

COLIN SMY: about past traumas they've experienced and how

00:19:01,050 → 00:19:04,769

COLIN SMY: that's affected their upbringing and then

00:19:04,770 → 00:19:07,169

COLIN SMY: their own parenting styles and standards.

00:19:07,170 → 00:19:10,259

KAREN: Can I ask as well, when we're talking about

00:19:10,260 → 00:19:12,599

KAREN: parenting and we do some of that reflection work,

00:19:12,600 → 00:19:15,329

KAREN: and we're talking about our childhood experiences

00:19:15,330 → 00:19:16,619

KAREN: and how we were parented.

00:19:17,940 → 00:19:21,329

KAREN: Have you found that helpful, unpicking some of that

00:19:21,330 → 00:19:23,669

KAREN: experiences about what it's like for you as

00:19:23,670 → 00:19:24,539

KAREN: children.

00:19:24,540 → 00:19:26,939

JAKE: Yeah, I found it very helpful.

00:19:26,940 → 00:19:29,939

JAKE: I mean, I've... I never realised I've been

00:19:29,940 → 00:19:32,864

JAKE: always a supporter of my parent

00:19:34,440 → 00:19:35,811

JAKE: and what my

00:19:37,530 → 00:19:38,849

JAKE: childhood was.

00:19:38,850 → 00:19:40,578

JAKE: But then when I've looked back at some of...

00:19:42,360 → 00:19:44,129

JAKE: you know, as you call it, the adverse childhood

00:19:44,130 → 00:19:47,249

JAKE: experiences, and looking back on them and thinking

00:19:47,250 → 00:19:50,309

JAKE: maybe this wasn't quite right and maybe that wasn't

00:19:50,310 → 00:19:52,919

JAKE: quite right. Where I've just justified things my

00:19:52,920 → 00:19:55,949

JAKE: whole life, I can kind of look back and think, "that

00:19:55,950 → 00:19:58,070

JAKE: wasn't right, so let's not do that this time".

00:19:59,190 → 00:20:02,279

JAKE: Because a lot of parents do take what their parent or

00:20:02,280 → 00:20:05,379

JAKE: the parents have brought into their lives and they

00:20:05,380 → 00:20:08,369

JAKE: think, "oh, because my parent brought me up, this is

00:20:08,370 → 00:20:11,519

JAKE: how I'm going to do it with my child." And that's

00:20:11,520 → 00:20:13,769

JAKE: not always the best option.

00:20:13,770 → 00:20:16,859

CHARLOTTE: I think when you've experienced something as

00:20:16,860 → 00:20:20,849

CHARLOTTE: a child, it becomes normalised,

00:20:20,850 → 00:20:23,542

CHARLOTTE: and the work that we've done with For Baby's

00:20:23,543 → 00:20:26,319

CHARLOTTE: Sake has made me realise some of the things that

00:20:26,320 → 00:20:29,099

CHARLOTTE: I may have witnessed as a child aren't normal

00:20:29,100 → 00:20:32,389

CHARLOTTE: and that has helped me to realise

00:20:32,390 → 00:20:35,329

CHARLOTTE: that that's not what I want Isabella to witness

00:20:35,330 → 00:20:36,330

CHARLOTTE: as she's growing up.

00:20:37,520 → 00:20:38,399

CHARLOTTE: Yeah.

00:20:38,400 → 00:20:41,419

JAKE: Touching on what I said earlier about my

00:20:41,420 → 00:20:42,976

JAKE: parent, my childhood, and how

00:20:46,160 → 00:20:49,189

JAKE: it made me as a person feeling like no

00:20:49,190 → 00:20:50,899

JAKE: one wanted me. You know?

00:20:50,900 → 00:20:54,049

JAKE: And with our relationship, how I'd ring constantly

00:20:54,050 → 00:20:57,829

JAKE: and need your reassurance and

00:20:57,830 → 00:20:58,830

JAKE: your attention.

00:20:59,300 → 00:21:02,089

JAKE: I think doing this work and you doing this work

00:21:02,090 → 00:21:05,389

JAKE: yourself and getting that self-belief

00:21:05,390 → 00:21:07,144

JAKE: and making you more

00:21:08,570 → 00:21:11,569

JAKE: confident. You know, that confidence that I probably

00:21:11,570 → 00:21:14,539

JAKE: brought down with with all the reassurance I needed.

00:21:14,540 → 00:21:17,119

JAKE: You building that back up, and me being able to build

00:21:17,120 → 00:21:19,446

JAKE: that up at the same time rather than you building it

00:21:19,447 → 00:21:22,399

JAKE: up or me breaking it down; both of our

00:21:22,400 → 00:21:25,549

JAKE: competencies rise and it kind of just—

00:21:25,550 → 00:21:28,219

JAKE: we bounce off each other and able to come up with

00:21:28,220 → 00:21:30,439

JAKE: solutions to problems, something we wouldn't have

00:21:30,440 → 00:21:31,440

JAKE: been able to do before. And making

00:21:35,150 → 00:21:38,119

JAKE: us being that way and having that self-belief

00:21:38,120 → 00:21:41,299

JAKE: in ourselves as parents and us

00:21:41,300 → 00:21:42,853

JAKE: being in a relationship is kind of just made

00:21:45,130 → 00:21:47,789

JAKE: Isabella the girl she is today, you know, happy,

00:21:47,790 → 00:21:50,829

JAKE: thriving, you know, in

00:21:50,830 → 00:21:52,239

JAKE: every minute of your life.

00:21:52,240 → 00:21:53,259

JAKE: Which is the way it should be.

00:21:55,280 → 00:21:58,039

COLIN SMY: By you guys having been aware of that and the

00:21:58,040 → 00:22:00,679

COLIN SMY: way you've worked and spoke to them, I know they

00:22:00,680 → 00:22:03,649

COLIN SMY: said they've worked with different people

00:22:03,650 → 00:22:05,749

COLIN SMY: independently, but them being able to talk about

00:22:05,750 → 00:22:07,999

COLIN SMY: their work together so that there's no secrets.

00:22:08,000 → 00:22:10,579

COLIN SMY: And it removes those issues about where they may

00:22:10,580 → 00:22:13,399

COLIN SMY: have come across either trauma in their own

00:22:13,400 → 00:22:16,189

COLIN SMY: childhood that they've experienced directly at

00:22:16,190 → 00:22:18,679

COLIN SMY: the hands of individuals, or trauma that they've

00:22:18,680 → 00:22:20,839

COLIN SMY: experienced in interacting with services as

00:22:20,840 → 00:22:23,449

COLIN SMY: well, which is just as difficult for some

00:22:23,450 → 00:22:25,939

COLIN SMY: families to come across. And then bringing that

00:22:25,940 → 00:22:29,059

COLIN SMY: all back together has helped to knit them

00:22:29,060 → 00:22:30,709

COLIN SMY: into part of the community and make them a

00:22:30,710 → 00:22:32,509

COLIN SMY: community within their own right and their own

00:22:32,510 → 00:22:35,629

COLIN SMY: family, so they're able to address those traumas

00:22:35,630 → 00:22:38,749

COLIN SMY: that they've got and not deflect that onto

00:22:38,750 → 00:22:41,599

COLIN SMY: their baby. Which I think then brings us up to

00:22:41,600 → 00:22:44,659

COLIN SMY: speed with where we might talk about how

00:22:44,660 → 00:22:47,989

COLIN SMY: does our work in that first 1001 days intervene

00:22:47,990 → 00:22:51,439

COLIN SMY: and prevent or support safeguarding

00:22:51,440 → 00:22:53,469

COLIN SMY: of children, I should say. So, where you've

00:22:53,470 → 00:22:55,369

COLIN SMY: brought us up to speed with Jake and Charlotte's

00:22:55,370 → 00:22:58,129

COLIN SMY: story, where they're up to now — without that,

00:22:58,130 → 00:22:59,779

COLIN SMY: what might we be looking at in terms of

00:22:59,780 → 00:23:02,749

COLIN SMY: safeguarding? So what's so vital about the

00:23:02,750 → 00:23:06,079

COLIN SMY: work we've done in that 1001 days early doors

00:23:06,080 → 00:23:08,459

COLIN SMY: that's safeguarded against safeguarding in the

00:23:08,460 → 00:23:10,099

COLIN SMY: long-term, if that makes sense.

00:23:10,100 → 00:23:11,419

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah, it does make sense.

00:23:11,420 → 00:23:14,119

GED DOCHERTY: And I guess we could break it down.

00:23:14,120 → 00:23:15,829

GED DOCHERTY: So thinking about the question that you've

00:23:15,830 → 00:23:18,739

GED DOCHERTY: asked me. I think all of the things that we

00:23:18,740 → 00:23:21,060

GED DOCHERTY: do — the For Baby's Sake team do — which

00:23:22,100 → 00:23:25,309

GED DOCHERTY: supports safeguarding, is

00:23:25,310 → 00:23:28,339

GED DOCHERTY: that we have the capacity to

00:23:28,340 → 00:23:31,759

GED DOCHERTY: be able to build a

00:23:31,760 → 00:23:35,269

GED DOCHERTY: trusting relationship, a sustained,

00:23:35,270 → 00:23:38,479

GED DOCHERTY: trusting relationship with our parents.

00:23:38,480 → 00:23:41,449

GED DOCHERTY: The nature of social work is that people

00:23:41,450 → 00:23:43,849

GED DOCHERTY: will come and go. The nature of social work

00:23:43,850 → 00:23:47,029

GED DOCHERTY: is that a case may travel through

00:23:47,030 → 00:23:49,920

GED DOCHERTY: different teams. So there may be the team who

00:23:49,921 → 00:23:53,689

GED DOCHERTY: first meets the family, does a pre-birth

00:23:53,690 → 00:23:56,569

GED DOCHERTY: assessment, and then the assessment is

00:23:56,570 → 00:23:59,779

GED DOCHERTY: concluded. It's onto the next stage.

00:23:59,780 → 00:24:02,123

GED DOCHERTY: That social worker passes that family onto

00:24:02,124 → 00:24:05,089

GED DOCHERTY: the next social worker, who will do

00:24:05,090 → 00:24:07,069

GED DOCHERTY: their part of their process.

00:24:07,070 → 00:24:10,099

GED DOCHERTY: But we have continuously been

00:24:10,100 → 00:24:13,669

GED DOCHERTY: the golden thread through that situation.

00:24:13,670 → 00:24:16,999

GED DOCHERTY: Our practice-based approach

00:24:17,000 → 00:24:20,449

GED DOCHERTY: is something which makes parents

00:24:20,450 → 00:24:23,479

GED DOCHERTY: themselves feel safe about.

00:24:23,480 → 00:24:26,569

GED DOCHERTY: Parents will often say in meetings, "Will

00:24:26,570 → 00:24:28,669

GED DOCHERTY: you tell them? Because you know, you know

00:24:28,670 → 00:24:30,980

GED DOCHERTY: what I'm talking about." In terms of the work

00:24:30,981 → 00:24:34,219

GED DOCHERTY: you and I often in co-production,

00:24:34,220 → 00:24:36,249

GED DOCHERTY: born into care, all of that stuff —

00:24:36,250 → 00:24:39,289

GED DOCHERTY: consistently, parents will say they

00:24:39,290 → 00:24:43,069

GED DOCHERTY: are wary of telling their story

00:24:43,070 → 00:24:44,719

GED DOCHERTY: repetitively.

00:24:44,720 → 00:24:46,669

GED DOCHERTY: And some of our parents have been doing that

00:24:46,670 → 00:24:49,039

GED DOCHERTY: since they were children because they may

00:24:49,040 → 00:24:51,409

GED DOCHERTY: have been involved in the system themselves,

00:24:51,410 → 00:24:53,509

GED DOCHERTY: subject to child protection plans.

00:24:53,510 → 00:24:56,569

GED DOCHERTY: They may be care experienced and for a

00:24:56,570 → 00:24:59,569

GED DOCHERTY: significant period of time they have

00:24:59,570 → 00:25:01,729

GED DOCHERTY: been telling their story.

00:25:01,730 → 00:25:04,939

GED DOCHERTY: In our trauma-informed approach, we are very

00:25:04,940 → 00:25:06,769

GED DOCHERTY: much led by them.

00:25:06,770 → 00:25:09,709

GED DOCHERTY: It's a person-centred approach which gives

00:25:09,710 → 00:25:13,039

GED DOCHERTY: them the time and space to be able to

00:25:13,040 → 00:25:16,009

GED DOCHERTY: process their experiences. In giving

00:25:16,010 → 00:25:18,739

GED DOCHERTY: time and space and supporting that person to

00:25:18,740 → 00:25:21,949

GED DOCHERTY: process, understand, come to terms

00:25:21,950 → 00:25:25,159

GED DOCHERTY: with, that in and of itself

00:25:25,160 → 00:25:28,309

GED DOCHERTY: reduces — or can reduce —

00:25:28,310 → 00:25:30,499

GED DOCHERTY: lots of harmful behaviours.

00:25:30,500 → 00:25:33,529

GED DOCHERTY: And it starts with the parent

00:25:33,530 → 00:25:37,489

GED DOCHERTY: recognising their own harmful behaviours

00:25:37,490 → 00:25:40,909

GED DOCHERTY: and how they impact on self

00:25:40,910 → 00:25:43,939

GED DOCHERTY: and others, and that is the foundation

00:25:43,940 → 00:25:45,739

GED DOCHERTY: of your safeguarding. If you can keep

00:25:45,740 → 00:25:48,529

GED DOCHERTY: yourself and your partner safe and you have a

00:25:48,530 → 00:25:51,769

GED DOCHERTY: loving, healthy, secure

00:25:51,770 → 00:25:55,069

GED DOCHERTY: and strong attachment to your baby, you

00:25:55,070 → 00:25:56,440

GED DOCHERTY: are going to keep your baby safe.

00:26:04,090 → 00:26:05,379

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): That's the end of part one of our

00:26:05,380 → 00:26:06,969

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): discussion on supporting parents

00:26:06,970 → 00:26:08,859

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): through adversity. In part two,

00:26:08,860 → 00:26:10,449

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): available now, Colin and Ged

00:26:10,450 → 00:26:12,009

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will talk about why it's so important

00:26:12,010 → 00:26:13,449

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to involve fathers in early

00:26:13,450 → 00:26:14,450

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention.

00:26:18,860 → 00:26:21,229

CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

00:26:21,230 → 00:26:22,519

CONCLUSION: podcast.

00:26:22,520 → 00:26:25,159

CONCLUSION: At the time of recording this episode, content

00:26:25,160 → 00:26:27,589

CONCLUSION: was up to date but the world of safeguarding

00:26:27,590 → 00:26:30,169

CONCLUSION: and child protection is ever changing.

00:26:30,170 → 00:26:32,239

CONCLUSION: So, if you're looking for the most current

00:26:32,240 → 00:26:33,764

CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection training,

00:26:34,940 → 00:26:37,939

CONCLUSION: information or resources, please visit

00:26:37,940 → 00:26:40,039

CONCLUSION: our website for professionals at

00:26:40,040 → 00:26:41,040

CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.

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