Gerry (00:03): Welcome to the Seidman Mentorship Podcast. This is your captain speaking. On this show, we navigate the voyage of life through the lens of Lakers, some who have just come aboard, and others who are well underway. We will speak with experts who will show us the ropes, help us plot a course and recount exhilarating tales of uncharted territory, all while promoting lifelong learning agility and a culture of mentorship. Today on the show, I host Dr. Diana Lawson, Dean of the Seidman College of Business. Lawson earned her PhD from Kent State University in 1993, an MBA and a Master's degree from Kent State. Also a bachelor's degree from the State University of New York College at Cortland. It was Diana Lawson who had the vision for the Seidman Mentorship Program. We discussed why she thinks mentoring is important for today's students and how they can be bold in their what if thinking about life. Dean Lawson, it's a honor and a pleasure to have you on the mentorship, your mentorship, because I blame you for, for <laugh> <laugh> authoring this latest version of the mentorship. But thanks for coming on. We really appreciate it,

Diana (01:19): And thank you for doing all of this and, and going with the flow. And I say, I have an idea,

Gerry (01:25): <laugh>, you're famous, uh, for, for having your ideas. And then, uh, for those of you who are familiar with the Pondera assessment, which some of you, uh, coming to see them will do, uh, and some of you have done, then, uh, we figure out all these styles and we figure out how to pair people together. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you and I, uh, are not exactly parallel styles, but we do work very well together 'cause of our diversity of thought. Yes.

Diana (01:47): We're like cousins <laugh>.

Gerry (01:48): I love that. So tell us a little bit about your Laker journey thus far.

Diana (01:54): So my Laker journey is only about nine years old. I've been here for nine years and I just started my 10th year as Dean of the Seidman College of Business. But I have been a dean for well over 15 years. I was prior to this, and I've got a long, crazy journey. I was in Minnesota, I was in Michigan, I was in Maine, I was in Kentucky, and I grew up in New York State, central New York. So I've been around a bit and I lived in France for a little bit.

Gerry (02:23): Can I ask what your favorite place to live was?

Diana (02:26): Hmm. That's really hard. I think in terms of state's, Maine, it is an absolutely gorgeous state. They have a lot more trees than they do cement, and that's really kind of nice. And I really enjoyed France a lot. I taught in France for a number of years, as an invited professor for short term programs. And so I was there for about 24 years on and off.

Gerry (02:50): Wow. So I mentioned it before, it's, I'm joking it's your fault, but you authored this latest version of the mentorship. At Seidman we always, I always use these nautical puns, uh, on the mentorship, and we'd have the Seidman Mentorship podcast, and I'm the captain and, and you're the admiral then? If I'm the captain or, or Commodore above, above that.

Diana (03:14): Oh, that's even better.

Gerry (03:15): Commodore, I would say, or, or supreme leader of all Allied Naval forces. Um, why now? What did you see coming and why this version of the mentorship now?

Diana (03:28): So I, I'll go back a little bit just from my own experiences. I went to one undergraduate school. I transferred to another, I went to a different school for my graduate programs. I've lived in a number of different states as well as in one country, another country besides the U.S. And every time I went somewhere, I always thought, boy, if only somebody could help me figure these things out so I don't have to figure them all out myself. And then when you add Covid on top of that, and when you add the fact that young people today, students coming into college have spent so much time independently either on tech or doing things with smaller families and not necessarily being in, in the same place where there might be larger family of relatives, it's really hard to navigate some places big as this. And so what I thought about was what can we do to help young people who come here and our strangers to just about everybody. How do, how do we help them navigate not just the university, but navigate working and living and studying with people they don't know, but that they have to do very fast? It's not like they have a year to figure this out. They hit the ground running when they're here and they're in class within a week. So that was why.

Gerry (04:54): And this iteration of mentorship that we have here, we had a strictly professional mentorship program, which really took senior students for the most part, and then paired them with business leaders in the West Michigan community. And then your brainchild for this was, let's focus on those first years. And now we've kind of merged these so that the freshmen, sophomores are being mentored by the junior, seniors who are being mentored by the folks in the community. For more of a, I think a, a four years kind of mentorship and even beyond, because after you graduate, I'm going to reach out to you and say, "Hey, Seidman alum, we need you, to come back and talk about that." And I really think, it's a stroke of, of genius on your part. And I was, absolutely accused those people that contacted me that said, "Hey, do you want to do this?"

Gerry (05:47): Did you invent a job for me? Because I've always wanted to do this. So thank you for that opportunity to get to do this. My pleasure to return to Grand Valley, and, you know, come back, get a, a second degree from Grand Valley and then get retouch touch base. And you and I were talking just before we came on the cast about walking the, the sidewalks of your old alma mater and kind of the, the feelings that that can stir because it, it is a very difficult, vulnerable time when you leave home to go do that first, that first venture. And that's what a lot of our students are feeling. And I think you really anticipated that, for thinking. So thank you for that. So tell us a little bit about your mentors. Did you have mentors and, and if so, or if not, how were they effect, effective or how did you do it on your own?

Diana (06:40): I had a couple of mentors, but not in a formal sense. It was really faculty who influenced me, faculty who helped to guide my decisions and, and my journey of where I went and what program I decided to study. And so what I started my major as a first year student was not the major I graduated with, nor was it at the same school. It was still part of the SUNY system in New York. But I went to school not having a clue what I wanted to do. And so I took the liberal arts and sciences and general education type courses and then realized I wanted to go into a, a major that they didn't have. So I went to a different school for that major. But all along the way, there was a faculty member every single semester that helped to guide me through what I wanted to do. And that was really important. But first year students don't know to, to seek that out on their own. And I was fortunate enough to have have faculty who, who sought me out.

Gerry (07:40): So the faculty approached you mm-hmm. <affirmative> to do that. Um, and

Diana (07:44): A lot of it was because I had work study and I got to work for faculty. And so I learned from them through my working.

Gerry (07:51): I hadn't thought of that. But, uh, you know, we have student workers, uh, down in advising in our office. You have them in the dean's office. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, because we're interacting and they're in kind of a professional environment, plus they're plugged into academia, right. Because we're doing the work of the university. Um, what an interesting avenue. So those of you listening who are thinking, oh, I don't know how to do this mentorship thing, you could always get a job at the university too, make money and get an opportunity to maybe see the inner workings of that. So pretty smart. I had to bumble around and go find people like Paul Isley and say, "Hey, bail me outta trouble because this isn't working out", you know, a long time ago. Uh, and it's fun. And I mention this often and I don't, I imagine you, you have a lot of experience at different universities. Is it unusual the amount of tenure we have amongst our faculty and the fact that some of my undergraduate instructors are, are still here mm-hmm.

Diana (08:44): <affirmative>? So I, I don't think it's unusual. The universities that I have worked at have had faculty who have stayed through their whole career. And if they leave, normally they're gonna leave fairly early on. And when they leave, the majority of the time it's for something personal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they wanna get back closer to their family. They get married, and their spouse to be is going to be someplace farther away. So they have to find a place in the middle on occasion, faculty will leave for other reasons, but not very often. One thing about Grand Valley is that we do focus on the students and we focus on student success in the faculty who are here. That's what's most important to them.

Gerry (09:25): Well, I'm thankful and I was, um, frankly surprised and touched coming from the corporate world. 'cause that doesn't happen. Right? Mm. The, the kind of tenure that you see, so you come back and see some of these folks are, are still here. What do you believe the role of mentoring is in the, in business learning,

Diana (09:45): Especially when we start with first year students in mentoring. It's to help them, as I've said before, navigate, but also to start to build a network. And if you listen, whenever we've had a Secchia breakfast or some other kind of presenter here, they're always talking about network. Get to know people. That's not easy for a lot of people to do. I know for you it's really easy to do that, but for a lot of people they're, they're a little more timid and it's not easy. So a mentoring program helps to start building that network early the first year students with the, with the juniors, and then the sophomores with the seniors, and then both with the professional community and that, that gets them into the habit over four years of building these networks and being much more comfortable talking with people that they don't know that is critical to the success in their careers. And I, I think that's the biggest benefit of it, because it becomes a habit.

Gerry (10:44): I think one of the major changes that we have made, based on what we've seen is the way Gerry does it is not necessarily the way anybody does it. And we've brought in a lot of folks to talk about introversion versus extroversion. I mentioned PVA, I know you're a big fan of the Pondera virtual advisor. Um, a lot of our folks on both of our alumni board for mentorship and our student advisory board for mentorship, we picked introverts on purpose. And I said, just because Jerry thinks this is the way you should do it, everybody should go to office hours. Greatest thing ever. And the introverts are sitting there like, why would I go bother a professor? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> unless I had a problem. They don't want that. So I had professor Kevin Leonard in that chair a few weeks ago, and he was begging folks to come to office hours.

Gerry (11:28): And I think especially Professor Leonard, 'cause the guy's got comic books and a turntable in his office. What's cooler than that? What's more fun and interesting to go, go see of them? And then you have this open, um, dialogue. But the interaction I think at the university has changed. And I think Covid was a part of that. Um, and I think we, we think in smaller steps than I think we did the very first year we did the program. And part of that I think is that learning to say maybe the way I do it is not the way everybody does it. There's a lot of ways to success. Mm-hmm.

Diana (12:00): <affirmative>, the diversity of thought in helping students as well as faculty to find what's comfortable for them and do things maybe not like everybody else does, is really important in building creativity and innovation, which is really necessary for, um, our companies and our industries because we become very structured. And if you look at what's what we're facing over the next five to 10 years, it's going to be very, very different than what it is today. So we need our students to be thinking outside the box.

Gerry (12:35): I know that the future is your wheelhouse. You're the oracle, uh, for us to some extent. You, you brought it up. So now I'm gonna ask. What do you see coming in the next, you know, you talked about that five year timeframe and being, it was pretty ominous. She sits very different. So-

Diana (12:51): It, it is going to be very different I think, I think for learning. They are going to need far more hands-on learning. We can't just use lectures and tests, which still universities across the country do a lot. But students are, are going to need to have more hands-on before they get out to the work into the workforce. And companies are looking at that as well. It used to be that companies would look for interns in between their junior and senior year. There are a number of fairly large companies in our region who are looking for, uh, interns in their sophomore year. They want, they want, and some even before that. So they have some, an intern in between first and second, then second and third, then third and fourth, so that they can help that student grow with the company, get to know the company, and hopefully stay with the company. But also you get different levels of creativity, innovation, thought processes when you're first or second versus a third or fourth year student. So the relationship between companies and universities is going to get a lot stronger and a lot closer. And we're going to have more students who, what we would call non-traditionally aged students. There are a number of students who will need to come back for relearning or upskilling, things like that.

Gerry (14:11): I'm one of 'em, right. <laugh>, I'm one of 'em, 20 years in corporate, have to retool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> have to come back. And you know what Grand Valley's there for you. If you want to come back, especially in our EMBA, I'll plug our EMBA and our PMBA programs, a minute for that. And I had someone today who emailed me that said, oh, I, I got a email from you saying to invite the mentorship program, but I'm an older returning learner, so maybe this program's not for me. And I'm like, it absolutely is for you, especially to learn back to academia, but also to share your experiences with our students. I think that's a, a wonderful person to mentor. Mm-hmm.

Diana (14:48): <affirmative>, one of the other things about the mentor program is when we, when students come in or when we go into any place that's new, we have preconceived ideas of what that is. So our students come in thinking, well, I wanna do business. So I have four options. They have no idea how many options there are out there. And the more they can engage with business professionals and upper division students as first year students, the broader perspective they'll have on what kinds of majors they could have in business, for example, they say, "Well, I wanna go into management." Well, there's information systems, there's human resources, there's supply chain, there's operations, there's general management. There are a number of options that most students, even when they're sophomores, don't really know the variety of options they have. So the program is really good for that.

Gerry (15:44): How does students who are mentors and mentees in the program get the most out of their mentorship?

Diana (15:51): Do more than just the minimum. Be bold, go and ask other people, go meet other people and ask for a few minutes of their time. Even professionals. Professionals love to talk about their jobs, what they do. And, and I have not heard of any, or maybe there, I'm sure there's somebody out there that's been a professional who when a student calls said, I don't have time. But the majority of them will find the time to talk to students and help them understand what the business world is like, what their life, what their career is like, and, and kind of mentor them and give them some advice on, on options when they get outta school.

Gerry (16:33): The relationship between the West Michigan business community and Seidman has never been stronger, in my opinion. And I have interfaced with it several times. And you're absolutely right. And if a student out there gets a, I don't have time, I want the name and phone number of the person who said that. 'cause I'd like to talk to 'em. I know in the mentorship program when I have reached out and asked for things, I've heard, not right now. Can't can't at the moment. But I've never heard "No", exactly. And the community understands. I think, and this is part of the, the Bill Seedman vision is we're not just gonna study a college or university because we should have one. Uh, we don't need the Harvard of the West as as used to be the joke. But what we need is educated citizens to work in the community, make great decisions and build mm-hmm. <affirmative> a bigger, better community. And that's, I think, is that unique to the West Michigan area?

Diana (17:27): The business relationship, we, the relationship we have with the business community in West Michigan is relatively unique for the type of institution that we are. You see these in small privates, hang on,

Speaker 3 (17:42): Sorry.

Diana (17:44): You see these in small private institutions and in the elites, of course. But I, I've been, I've worked at a number of institutions. I've visited a lot of them through accreditation. I know deans at other places. The, the, the strength of our relationship with the business community is, is unique. And it, it's probably one of the strongest I've seen.

Gerry (18:08): Oh, we're certainly fortunate because of it. Yeah. And especially with the legacy companies that we have here. And it's not just the names that are on our buildings. I know because I go out there and we ask them for help and support, and they really are supportive. And it's synergistic, as you pointed out. They know that they need students from Grand Valley to fill their, uh, ranks to continue doing the work that they do. What do you wish students would do that they don't do?

Diana (18:38): Be curious. Don't just follow along what everybody else does just because somebody else is doing it. And figure out what they, what really excites them. And then pursue that. Try new things. Take risks, not major risks that make no sense, but try something different and, and reach out to people who you might not normally reach out and learn about them. It broadens your perspective and helps you to, to have a bigger, a a better goal in life in terms of where you wanna go.

Diana (19:19): So I don't know where this little frog came in my throat <laugh>, but it's here. So one of the things that, that I found in, in all of the tra all of my different experiences, because I've lived in different places, I've taken risks, I've gone to, I've traveled to many countries, is every time I do something that's different, I learn something more about myself. I learn something more about where I want to go. And if I didn't have all of the different experiences that I had coming to where I am now, I would not be as good at what I, at what I do. It makes a difference. And so I think, especially now with students in covid, have been so protected, not and, and isolated because they haven't been allowed able to go out. Going out and exploring and, and doing some of the things they didn't have a chance to do before is really important. It doesn't mean they should skip classes <laugh>, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't do their work, but there's a lot of other time for them to do those things instead of just following what everyone else does.

Gerry (20:25): I know that you're very passionate about international work, um, and international experiences. I know you just got back from, from Poland with the EMBA group. We talked a little bit about what you saw there. Is the world truly becoming a smaller place for business? Or is the world just becoming more and more diverse to where you can't depend on being an expert at one thing where you have to be kind of an expert in yourself, become that adaptable, become that vulnerable, become that bold person you described to give it a shot and go out there and do it. And I think one of the things that our, our students forget is the university is a big experiment, right? This is the place that you come to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, try to see what you wanna do, maybe even experiment with some parts of your character, your personality, whatever it is you're exploring you as much as you're exploring and, and getting a degree.

Diana (21:17): I think going out and exploring and trying new places, even in the US to start, if you don't wanna go abroad is really important. I don't think the, the world is getting smaller in terms of systems. There are common systems. Banking is not as different across different countries as it used to be. The young people all listen to the same music. The fashions cross through the entire world much faster than they used to because of technology. But the cultures are still different. And understanding the different cultures and the why behind people behave the way they do, really helps us to understand that really we're not much different, but we do things differently. And it really does broaden our horizons, our perspectives, and wants us and helps us to all work better together. We don't have to go outside the US to see that. But going outside the US certainly is, I think life changing for almost all of the students that I've taken abroad for semesters or for a couple of weeks. And, and students who've gone abroad on other trips, they come back and when they, we say, we ask them, what has been most most impactful on your whole four year career? And it's always their international experience. It changes the way you think.

Gerry (22:41): I also know from sitting on the professional side of business, when I saw resumes where people had international experience, it told me about their adaptability mm-hmm. <affirmative> to fit into an organization or a situation that may be foreign. And for a lot of these incoming students, especially our, our first year students, that's kind of like coming to a different country. When you come to university, it has its own culture. It has its own system set. And having that navigator guide is the same as, as, as, uh, Joy Gianakura put, put it best. The mentorship is that first trusted friend and advisor that you have at Grand Valley. And would you rather go abroad and figure it out yourself? Or would you rather have somebody show you around? And most people, myself included, would prefer to have somebody show me around, even as extroverted as I am. Um, because it allows me to sit back and kind of take it in and enjoy and not worry about navigating. And now it's too easy. When you went abroad, I mean, you really had to figure it out. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you really went abroad. You got on a plane and there was no texting on the plane back home. It was, I, I'll call or write when I get a chance and you go out there and you do it <laugh>.

Diana (23:49): So I I I, the, the analogy of going abroad and coming to college for the first time is really a good one. When you go abroad and say you're going for a semester or for a year, it's extremely difficult. The culture shock. And people generally want to come home and wanna be connected for their first three months, but after that, Mom and Dad want them to come home and they don't wanna come home. <laugh>, you know, they, they've adjusted. It takes about three months to adjust. But those first three months are tough. And the same is true in college. It may be four months 'cause it's usually the first semester. They're still trying to find their way, find their, their fit in what they're doing here. They go less, they go home less, once, once they've been here for a semester and then they become themselves and they start to learn more. That first semester is tough. That's why the mentor program for first year students is so important. And what we have found is that the retention of the students in the mentor program is better and their grades are better. And it's because they have people they can connect with.

Gerry (24:55): Yeah. I don't think it's any surprise when we think about, just from an example, everybody who's supported does better. When the community is together. You find that first set. And, and again, choice analogy, that's your first kind of friend and advisor. And sometimes I think when I first came in, I thought of all the great things we can do with these first years. And I had to back up. And one of the reasons that we chose our juniors and seniors is I don't know what it's like to be an undergraduate student anymore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's a long time ago. So I don't know. The questions I think they really wanna know is where's the best food on campus? What after school activity. What club should I join? What time is the pizza party at Kirkoff? How do I get to Kirkoff and how long is it gonna take me to walk from this class to this class? And um, my favorite thing to pick on on the podcast is how do I get around in Mackinac <laugh> our most complex building?

Diana (25:45): I haven't figured it out <laugh>.

Gerry (25:47): So I am, I am, um, you have given me the opportunity to instruct there in the fall. And I'll tell you just like when I was a freshman, I've already been to Allendale and I've went and I found that room and I found three different ways into that building to find that room just for my own -Oh, that's good- rehearsal. Right. And I remember doing that. Somebody told that to me as a freshman, like, get your schedule out and walk the campus and figure out where everything is. And, and that takes a little anxiety out of day one. So even now as an adult, uh, professional with so many years of experience who's traveled abroad, I still do that. I like the rehearsal

Diana (26:23): <laugh>. That way you'll be on time for class,

Gerry (26:25): There's no doubt. Yeah. <laugh>, I'll be on time for class. Um, how should students and professionals kind of plan, uh, for their lives? And does mentorship play a role in that planning?

Diana (26:39): So my answer might not be what most people would expect. I would say instead of planning, think of the what ifs, the possibilities of what I could do and what that would look like, and start moving towards them knowing that you might change direction a little, but in everything that you do still. And be intentional about your coursework, about what you do in, in your classes and, and balance that with the experiential learning, the clubs, the student organizations, and the other activities where you could learn from a lot of different experiences. Try not to pigeonhole, try not to plan your life out too far in advance because you never know what opportunities will be coming down the road. And I say that because my undergraduate degree has absolutely nothing to do with what I am doing today. And I've had a number of different positions.

Diana (27:50): I've worked on a cruise line, I worked at the winter games, uh, at one of the winter games that were in the United States. I worked in business for a short time. Um, I have two master's degrees. I worked in fitness. I have a master's in exercise physiology, but it wasn't until long after my undergraduate degree that I realized higher education is where I should be. And if I didn't have all of those other experiences, I, again, they all added and, and added value to my ability to do what I have to do today for my responsibilities. So, so think broadly, think broadly, try different things, and always talk. Think about the what ifs.

Gerry (28:38): Again, our diversity of, of thought. This was the exact PVA moment. I asked a question about planning and logic and you answered with the, uh, musty possibilities -Yes, that's right- Imaginative answer, which is why we work well together, even though we drive each other crazy with our styles. That's right.

Diana (28:53): You're a pragmatist, aren't you?

Gerry (28:54): No, I'm, I'm an organizer. Oh yeah.

Diana (28:57): Oh, and I'm not Yeah,

Gerry (28:58): <laugh>. It's, yeah. Yeah. So <laugh>, we learned to work together, but not our preferred styles. Uh, but that's so important in that diversity of thought. I really appreciate the time you've spent with us today. I know the audience is excited to hear from you. It's not every day we get to talk to the dean, so thank you for spending some time with us today and thank you very much for authoring this version of the program and giving me the opportunity and our students the opportunity to do this mentoring. We've heard so much feedback both officially, but anecdotally and, in 20 years in business, I got three, I think handwritten thank you cards. Because I got the client the thing that they need. I got 'em the widget and they were, thanks for the widget. Merry Christmas, whatever, gimme another widget.

Gerry (29:47): Next week I have a stack of thank you cards from students I keep in my desk for my, what I call the feel good file. So the day when I'm not sure if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, I pull up in that drawer. I read through some of these and the comments from our students, really that echo, even though they're written to me, they're really also to you as the author of the program. We changed their lives. We helped them. We were there for them, we supported them. They feel like they have more grounded under their feet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can't buy that. And any other thing that I've done in my life. So thank you for allowing me to pursue this passion. Uh, and thank you, um, for having Grand Valley here when I came back and needed it to do a reset. And thank you for your leadership and I pursue it. We're,

Diana (30:33): We're very glad to have you here and you've, you've really been impactful on our students. And as a last comment, I have the honor of really meeting a lot of alumni who've been out for 30 plus years and all the way down to five years. And almost every single one asks about a professor or says, this professor or that professor made an impact in my life. I'm doing this because he or she helped me with this, that, or the other thing. So thank you for your role in that.

Gerry (31:03): Oh, it's, it's my honor. Thank you for sailing along on this episode of the Seidman Mentorship Podcast. For more information on the Seidman School of Business Mentorship Program at Grand Valley State University, set your heading to www.gvsu.edu/seidman. If you have a story to tell, know someone we should interview, have questions or comments, email us at go the number 2 gv biz spelled biz @gvsu.edu. Until next time, keep a weathered eye on the horizon and we wish you fair winds so long.