: Welcome to the Aggressive Life. 200 something episodes into this podcast, Dirt, is that what we are? Yeah, it's 218, I think. It is really interesting to see which guests have gotten the most downloads. I think most people would have expected, oh yeah, Hollywood superstar Matthew McConaughey. No, no. How about preeminent theological guru, NT Wright? Uh, no, I'm Kathleen Gifford, corn guitarist, Brian Head Welsh, former porn star, not Brian Head Welsh, the former porn star. So knowing, knowing Brian would probably have liked to have been, but, uh, former porn star Joshua Broome? Uh, no. It is this guy today. My good buddy. We've been friends for... I think literally decades now, at least two of them. My good buddy, John Burke, in less than a year, his original episode on the aggressive life entitled What Happens When We Die? He's jumped to the very top of all time downloads and did it in record setting time. Tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of people tuned in to hear this pastor, near death, experienced researcher, my friend, unpack the scientific evidence for the afterlife, or maybe. scientific evidence or would it be testimonial evidence? Either way, if you haven't heard the original conversation, we'll wait for you. Just go, don't listen to that because we're not gonna recover a bunch of that territory. So seriously, we're not going anywhere. Just stop right here and go back to that original conversation. You can find the link in the show notes or scroll back to November, 2022 to find it. Since then, John has continued to dive into this topic. He's uncovered loads of more fascinating research, especially in regards to what near-death experiences can teach us about God Himself, not just heaven. He has a new book and he's compiled this research into called Imagine the God of Heaven. It releases November 7th, but he's here today to give us a look into that book. And most importantly, to hang out with his old buddy BT over here, because you and I seem like the only time we talk with each other anymore is on a podcast. What is wrong with this world? We have. We had lunch together when I was up there. When, how long ago is that? It was a couple months ago, wasn't it? No, you were not up here a couple months ago. It was what? A year ago. It was a year ago, wasn't it? No, see, you're getting old and losing your mind. I am getting old and lose my mind. That is true, but still, we need to talk. But you're still aggressive. I am still aggressive. I'm trying to be aggressive, at least that's my brand. And before we get into your book, I'm just curious, You stepped down the senior pastor gateway. How's that going for you? I mean, good. You know, I'm remembering why I quit writing books after Imagine Heaven in 2015. It's just a lot, but it's good. It's good not trying to, you know, I mean, you know, you are a senior pastor of a large church. It's a lot. So it's good to be able to focus on this. I'm super excited about this message. I mean, it's the same thing. I think it's the hope. It's a hope for all nations. And that's what I'm hoping to help people see. How long have you been out of the senior pastor gig? May. OK. So a lot of people have this desire to be an author and to write. I remember when I was in seminary, the secret fantasy of everybody who was. a classmate of mine or secret fantasy of pastors, not just pastors, just people, is to be an author, write a book, support your life, don't answer to anybody, just you and your study and all that stuff. And the truth of the matter is it is incredibly difficult, not just difficult to write a book, but difficult to write anything that someone wants to carry and even more difficult to get people to buy it. So I'm just curious from you, just give everybody a little tutorial who has the desire to be an author. Like how hard is it out there these days to do that? What's your life look like? What's the process? Well, I mean, it's easier than ever to write a book and get it published, because self-publishing is huge now. The challenge, I think, is that anybody can self-publish. So there's all kinds of stuff out there. And here's the other thing, Brian. People think you write a book and you know, it goes big and you got it made. Well, it's not true. It's like, you're, you're one, you're one book away from being nothing and starting over again. And that happened to me, you know, this is, this is the fifth or sixth book I've written. And I quit. I, like I said, in, in 2015, I, uh, I wrote Imagine Heaven. I was like, Okay, Lord, I think I did what you wanted. You didn't call me to be an author. You called me to be a pastor. That's what I'm going to do. Because there's too much to try to do both. Yeah, right. Yeah, I could make an argument either way. I could make an argument that being a senior pastor or the head of an organization is the worst job because the demands from other people are endless. And... the budget challenges never stop and you're only as good as your last sermon. And the complaints never say, I could go, you know, I could make an argument for that or I could make an argument for you're alone in the wilderness, just you and your word processor, your computer, and just hoping it hits. I don't know. Either neither one is an easy, is an easy task, you know? So, and you, you've done both of them now. So you are just a glutton for punishment. You have the harder one. What? interviewing you, that's the harder one? No, no, no. I think leading a church is the harder one without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. Well, but I know us mega church pastors, we're just enjoying our yachts and our second homes and all the secret sins we have that are disclosed from public view. I know. That's the thing is you're... Yeah, you're guilty until proven innocent, right? Unfortunately these days. Right. So your book here, your book, it sounds very similar to your previous book. What are the, where do they intersect and where do they diverge? Or are you just trying to keep the gravy train going of keeping the same theme going to make some more money? Yeah. No, like I said, I quit writing. My plan was not to write it anymore. And I really felt like the Lord told me differently. And the difference in Imagine the God of Heaven from Imagine Heaven is it really is a book about God. It's a comprehensive book about God. So I pored over the scriptures and I have my whole life, as you know, and it's looking at the story of God told throughout history through the Jewish prophets and through Jesus, but also it's showing how these people all around the world, and I've got people on every continent, Hindus, Muslims, Jewish people, agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, every continent. they are meeting the same God, and I'm showing how this God didn't just show up in our age of near-death experience. It's the same God who was revealing Himself to Moses, who created the Jewish nation, Genesis 12, right, out of Abraham and Sarah, and he said, I'm gonna bless you to bless all the nations. And... That's exactly what He's showing us through these near-death experiences. I truly believe these are God's global testimony that He is the God of all people. He cares about all people. What He did through Jesus, He did for all people. And so that's a very unique part of it. But also, you know, we're going into God's heart and character, His compassion, His mercy, His hidden justice. all these attributes of God along with the story of God, but you're seeing them illustrated through these 70 people that I personally interviewed from all around the world talking about what that's like. I think the reader will fall in love with God in a way they never knew. They'll realize, oh my gosh, like if God feels that way about me, which he does, that changes everything. Because like, I mean, Brian, we know it's like people believe in God, yeah, but they don't trust him that much. They don't think he's that good. They don't think he's fun or funny. You know, and what this book I think will do is blow the boxes. You know, we all have God in the box. We have to, we're finite. God is way more mysterious and majestic and sovereign and, you know, omniscient, all those big words, and we need to stretch on that end. But others of us need to stretch on God is way more personable than you've ever imagined. Like, He gets you and has been with you in everything. Yes. And He is actually fun and enjoyable and enjoys doing life with you and even laughs and is funny. And for some, that's like, no, that's not right. Right? And when you see both what He said throughout the centuries in Scripture, illustrated through these people from all over the globe who have clinically died, been resuscitated, and claim not only to experience heaven and hell, both accounts, as you know, but being in the presence of God. What they've said is of all the beauty and wonders of heaven, of all the incredible relational reunions, nothing compares to just being in the presence of God. And that's, that was why the subtitle of the book, he is the love you've always wanted. And I think until people realize that they're always jonesing for the next relational fix or numbing thing or, you know, and we're looking at the wrong place. We were created for God. Yeah. Okay. So this goes back to something, before I dig into all this, I want to hear about the funny and all that kind of stuff right now that God has. But let's go back to something you said earlier. You said the Hindu and the Muslim and whoever, whoever is meeting the same God. So you said you're saying all gods are the same? No, I'm saying there's only one God. And it doesn't matter what religious culture you come from. They, so I'll give you, I'll give you a couple examples in imagine the God of heaven. I don't remember last time we interviewed, did I tell you about San Tosh? manufacturing engineer and do. Dude, you're talking to somebody who's, his kids, his kids call me the goldfish because I have the memory of a goldfish. You know that. Come on. I just, I couldn't remember that you spoke across shows not too long ago. What, what are you talking about? No, I, I have no idea if I remember or not. You probably should tell me again. So, so he, he has a near death experience. He thought maybe when he dies, he'll come back as something else, but there's no life after. And yet this brilliant God of light who he says he falls in love with takes him to this place. And he describes the holy city of God just like John does in Revelation 21. He calls it this huge compound with and if you've been to India, which I have, you know, the compounds everywhere walled in, you know, places. But he said it was huge, thousands of miles and beautiful walls inside. just gorgeous grounds and mansions and buildings made of a otherworldly material. And he said, and there were 12 gates, I counted them. And he said, your eyesight is telescopic. So I counted them all. They're all close to me. And then I saw angels outside the gate nears to me. And I realized I'm looking at the kingdom of heaven. Okay, so you've got a guy like that. And then he sees God Almighty on his throne and a narrow. gate that is open to him. And the Lord says to him, Santosh, I'm sending you back. And it's a long story because he also gets a glimpse of hell and he sees his life accurately and he realizes, oh my gosh, I'm toast. But he hears the Lord speak to him and he hears tenderness and compassion and mercy in his voice and he sees this narrow gate open to him and he wants to go in because it's like he said it's the It's the goal of humanity is to be in this place. And the Lord says to him, he says, how do I go through that narrow gate when I come back? And he says, I want relationship. I wanna see how honest you can be with me. Not one day a week, because that's what he was thinking. What temple or what church or what mosque do I go to? And the Lord said, I want you to walk with me 365 days a year in complete surrender. And he said, the wages of sin is death. Surrender yourself and walk with me. And then he comes back. Two years later, and he's seeking God after that. He's like, this was not like the Hindu gods I grew up learning about. Who was this God of mercy and compassion? I knew I deserved that abyss, and yet he was so kind to me and loving. And two years later, his daughter is invited to speak. to be in the choir at a church, kind of like our churches. And he goes to hear her and the message is on the narrow gate. And how Jesus is the gate through which you must enter into the kingdom of God. He goes home, reads the Bible. He's like, this is everything I experienced. And he comes out faith in Christ. Wow. That's just one. Okay, then I interviewed a woman. And she told me the story in Farsi. She's from Tehran. Which, by the way, which, by the way, I'll say it again, if you haven't listened to previous two episodes, go do those. You'll come back to this. It'll make more sense to you. Go ahead. Keep going, John. Yeah, so she's telling me about dying in Tehran. She's a Muslim related to the prophet Muhammad. And who's coming to her in this near-death experience is. she knows this is almighty God, but honestly, he looks like what she describes like Jesus, the risen Jesus, like John or Daniel in Daniel chapter 10 or John in Revelation one saw. And he says this, I am he who is. I am he who is. I mean, that's what that's what And then she comes back and starts seeking and comes to faith in Jesus. Then you have a Rwandan imam. His mom and dad, one was Hutu, one was Tutsi. During the genocide, their family blew apart. He became a street kid. Later, he becomes an imam, and like a Muslim apologist, trying to convince Christians that they're wrong. And he dies of blood cancer. And his mom had, you know, she tried everything. And she goes to the Christians at the Anglican Church and asked them to pray and to pray to Jesus, even though she didn't know if she believed or not. And Jesus comes into this hellish experience he's in, and he sees this man, brilliant light, beard, white robe. Gold sash holds out his hands like this and he sees the nail holes. And he remembered going to, he got a free movie, this is in Rwanda, to see the Passion of the Christ and he didn't want to, but it was free, so he went. And he's like, that's who this looked like, so I knew who it was. And he said, I died for mankind. You are among those I died for. Never deny it and tell everyone. Today, this Rwandan Imam is now an Anglican priest who's had seven hits on his life for never denying Jesus. So, and you've got these and you got to go like, what would motivate these people to make this up, right? I mean, another guy is a Hindu anesthesiologist, chief anesthesiologist, Baker Heart Hospital. thought near-death experiences were totally bogus. And he had heard them when he had put people under and they'd come out. And he thought, it's BS. And he would just give them like an anti-psychotic drug. Then he has his own. And he also has, he cries out to God in the midst of realizing that, and he had, by his own admission, had become a not a great guy. And he is experiencing more of a hellish experience and cries out to God. And he said, I was repenting. I realized how wrong I was. And then these two Christian angels take him to this place of immaculate beauty in front of this God of light and love who is personal, knows him intimately, gives him a life review. He said to show him again the things in his life that needed to change and then sends him back. And then later he has another encounter with the same God of light. And he says, who are you Lord? And out of the light, he said, stepped a man with a beard and a robe and a sash and said, I'm Jesus, your savior. Which I'm not sure why Jesus would wear that. Why wouldn't he wear camo or something? You know, bad ass like that. I don't know. You know, it's funny. No, you know, it's funny. There is one of Jesus. appearing to an atheist, this, this hardcore businessman guy, just storming it, killing it. But he's an atheist and Jesus appears to him in a business suit. And he asked him what, why are you wearing this? And he said, would you listen to me? You know, if I showed up in a robe. Wow. And all these people, they're documented. There's the names out there. You're not just making these things up, so it sounds like a good story. There's research, and you can trace the thread. Oh, yeah. I mean, these are credible people. They're college professors. They're anesthesiologists. They're spine surgeons. I mean, nurses, doctors. Why in the world? This only hurts them. It doesn't help them. Yes. But the truth is, And many of them have documented evidence of how long they had no brainwaves, no heartbeat. You know, like, like one guy who was a CEO and executive with the fastest growing pharmaceutical company in the world. And he died of, uh, aneurysms and he has 30 minutes, his brain, no heartbeat, no brainwaves, and yet he came back and he came back to speak of, you know, the wonders of Jesus. Right, so when you're saying these folks from all different walks of life, all corners of the globe, all different spiritual, religious persuasions that it's all the same God, you're not talking about the old illustration of everybody feeling an elephant. And one person's got their hand on the side of the elephant, so, oh, this elephants are like walls. Another person is. feeling the long tail and these are all blind people, by the way. You're really screwing this story up. Uh, I am not screwing up. You shut your yap. You let somebody else talk for a second. I communicate for a living. I'm not screwing this up. There's an elephant. You forgot to start with four blind men come on an elephant one day and they're trying to describe them. Okay. Why don't you tell a story then I'll give the punch line. Go ahead. Give the, go ahead, John. Since you're the mighty John, you can't preach anymore. You can't, you can't do that. You're not good enough for that. You're rusty for that. So now you think you just, you're God's gift to communication. No, all you do is you tap a keyboard. I actually talk to real people for a living. See, I know how to get the aggressive right out of the blind. Three decades. I know you will. No, you're right. So thank you. You're, you're right. So yeah, blind people come up and, and so the idea is these all represent different religions. You know, one person, Oh, God is. the elephant's flat, the person feels the tails, oh no, elephants have, are long and spindly, and that person feels the trunk, no, they're thick and whatever they are, right? And of course, the people who tell that story and use it as a parable to describe how no religion is, is the owner of all truth, how no religion really knows God. The ironic thing is that people tell that story, what they're saying is, but I know what's happening. because I can see and I sit back and I see all these stupid Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Jews who really they're deluded, but I, I understand it. It's so, it's so prideful and arrogant for anyone to tell that story. So you're not talking about that. You're just, you're just saying people come from different religions and backgrounds and they encounter the one true God and this one true God. is referenced really accurately in the Bible, whatever religion they come from. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And even that parable, if you think about the parable, none of those blind people are correct. An elephant is nothing like a hose. It's a hose, a wall, a tree, whatever. That's not an elephant at all. And so just hearing all of us blah, blah about what we think God is like. doesn't matter. What we need is someone who's actually seen, who can tell us what God's like. And, you know, and honestly, not even near-death experiencers. Jesus claims He can tell us what God is like because He revealed Him in a form we can understand. And, you know, and I go into that in the book, how He proved that. He gave evidence, you know, in history that this was true. And it was before, this is the other thing that people don't realize, God started revealing who he was before any of the sacred scriptures of any of the world's religions were formed. Because he alone cares for all people of all nations. Now, when I'm saying that they see God, I think it's an important thing to realize that near death experiences are not a crossover into eternity. I think we talked about this last time, but it's worth saying again, a lot of one of the commonalities of near-death experiences, is that they know there's a border or a boundary, they can't cross over from on the other side, they can't cross over and still come back to earth. And in this new book, I even have Jesus telling some of them, you have to go back, you haven't died yet. And yet clearly they had clinically died. So we can't know from near-death experiences what someone's eternity holds. You need to go to scripture for that. Near-death experiences, it's a peak, it's a glimpse into the reality of what's to come. If I went and visited Buckingham Palace, you know, I can see it, great, but that doesn't mean the royal family is adopting me to move in permanently. Yeah, right. Near-death experiences are just a visit. They're not yet a permanent move in, whether they see hell or heaven, they still come back and they still have a free will and they can either seek God, and find him and follow him or not. Well, to your point you shared earlier, or the story, the person talked about the gate, the narrow gate, but they weren't inside the gate where everything was happening. Yeah, and this is another thing that I think people are kind of like, well, if this God of light and love, and some experience him as Jesus, but some experience him as this brilliant light, brighter than the sun, love, unconditional, you know, all these credible characteristics, but it confuses him. So they're like, well, why didn't he just tell him who he is? If he's Jesus, why didn't you just say, I'm Jesus, you know, here's the gospel, go believe. But we fail to understand that that's not what he does in the Bible. Yeah. First of all, Paul, who we said before, you know, when Jesus appears to him as this God of brilliant light. and he asks, who are you? And he tells him he's Jesus. He doesn't tell him anything else. Jesus doesn't tell him the gospel. He sends Ananias to Paul later to explain the message. And then Paul still had to decide, will I open my heart to Christ? Will I repent of my sins? Will I be baptized in the name of Jesus? Yes. Right? And so the same is true with NDEs, just because what I think these are, are God. giving testimony to his reality, to his love, because he loves them. He loves everyone. It's amazing, you know? Yes. And it doesn't matter if they rejected him all the way up to the last minute. And some have. I interviewed one guy's commercial airline pilot who over overdosed. He had Guillain-Barre disease, which is horribly painful. He gets addicted to opioids sitting in his truck. He's a very wealthy man. He had. a horse farm, 19 British sports cars, his own yacht, his own airplane, he's a commercial airline pilot. He realizes he's dying. And as his head is hitting the steering wheel, he realizes, man, I never thanked God once for my life, you know, that I thought was my own doing. And he just says, Lord, forgive me. And his head hits the steering wheel. And his name's Jim. And I told him, man, You beat the thief on the cross for last He said that's who I identify with you know and yet and yet the amazing thing Brian so he also gets a peek of where he was headed and I noticed this that In these near-death experiences when someone's like last-minute crying out they get a peek of the reality of hell and heaven and Then he takes him and these angels are walking them through heaven. And what's so amazing is God's goodness to this guy who deserved nothing. You said they get the peak of hell and heaven. You're saying it's hell or heaven. It's not that somebody goes to, not that everybody goes and gets both peaks. No. Yeah, okay. But they do, some of them do. Okay, all right. And that's my point. Is these near-death experiences are not our eternal destination. They are just a peak into the reality of everything God's been telling us all along. There is a hell and there is a heaven and both are better or worse than you could ever imagine here on earth. 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Yeah, so tell us more about this light and love. This is one of the themes that is in your book. You tell the story of Dr. Ron Smotherman. Smotherman? Yeah. He's a neurologist and a psychiatrist and crazy story. I mean, he was traveling the world doing seminars. And he lets a guy stay in his house who was in bad shape. he didn't realize that he had a psychotic break. And so when Ron, when Dr. Smotherman comes back, the guy attacks him. He's beaten them with one hand with a tennis racket and stabbing him with another. And he doesn't even realize it till he looks around the walls and they're bloody. And after the 13th, and he showed me he has one scar. He said it went, and he describes all the medical terms, but it went in here and out the back of his neck. And he said, Doctors and I don't know how it didn't kill me. But right before the 14th stab, he's going for his heart. Dr. Smotherman said time froze, or that's the way he experienced it. And suddenly this brilliant god of light is there. And what he described, he said, imagine being five feet away from the point of detonation of an atomic bomb. That's what it was like. He said it was light and it was roiling like an atomic bomb. And he said, but, but it was roiling with love. And as soon as he said that he like chokes up and he said, I'm sorry, it's, it's hard to talk about. It's just the love was so overwhelming. And then he said nine qualities imprinted themselves on me instantly. And he talked about, you know, first infinite love, but also infinite knowledge. He said it. It came to me as a picture of a universe full of libraries filled with books and God wrote them all. And then he said power that was just indisputable. I mean, you've never seen power like this. He said, this is power that if it weren't coupled with so much love, you would definitely fear God. And he said, what it elicits is surrender. You want to surrender. You know, not because, because he's so good and he's so powerful that you know, you're safe in this power. And then he said, authority. He said, this is authority that you knew you had to obey. And he said, and if he told you, you know, hell for you, you'd say, you're right, because you would know he knows what's right, everything, um, kindness, purity. I love the way he talked about purity because he talked about. He said, he's so pure and innocent. And then when I started, because I was kind of confused and so I asked him more questions, I realized he's describing the word we use for holy. He said, he's like a blank slate that shows up what you're not. I realized what I'm not, I'm not that. And it was a purity and an innocence. And then he said, and humor. He said it was kind of shocking, but God is like right on the edge of, he said, laughing his ass off. That's literally what he said. And, and, and which, you know, which there are, there are a lot of these that Brian, I'll be honest. Initially, I was like, yeah, cause I was, I was a skeptical engineer for years. So I'm always, when I first hear one of Yeah, maybe kind of let's set that to the side. And I can tell you about some others that I was for years. I was like, yeah, I don't know. And then I hear account after account, after account, saying the same thing. And humor was one of those. Where do we think we got all our enjoyable traits from? The one who created us thought that up. Right. I can't remember all the way covered, but if we covered this before it's, it's fine to do it again is we're created in the image of God. No other entity is created in the image of God, whether there are or aren't animals in heaven or your specific animal in heaven is another discussion, but we're all created in the image of God. We're the only ones that laugh. You got laughing hyenas, though that's their bark. We're the only ones that can just simultaneously and communicate just to get somebody else to laugh. My dog has never told another dog a joke. No, not cat. Why is it that we all universally find farts funny? Yeah, we should stop trying to get your dog to laugh at your jokes. It's not going to do it. That's right. Would it be actually possible that God created... He could allow us to eliminate gas in our intestines without there being a sound that makes everybody laugh. I mean, honestly, I think of these things and if you can't think... At least little five and six year old boys and... You and me. Yeah, and you and me, right. And if we can't at least can't consider this as a possibility, I feel sad for us because it shows that you're just too serious. You're just too much of a furrowed brow to be enjoying your life. Well, and that's part of what I think Imagine the God of Heaven does, is it helps you to see that God is a God of joy. You know, it's interesting just theologically, Brian, because I've got a lot of theological terms woven throughout this book, but I'm trying to show what they're actually like and what difference it makes to us. One, I went back and read all my seminary books and theology books and all that. You know what I noticed? No theologies. Talk about a characteristic of God being joy. No. Interesting. Well, and you think about Galatians, the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, and on it goes. And not only that, I mean, so if you look at the history of Israel, God had them put on the calendar seven parties, national throwdowns every year to come together, and it says, celebrate and enjoy with God. all the wonderful things he's done. He enjoys when we enjoy with him. It's just like me with my kids or my granddaughters, like I give them gifts, but I wanna enjoy it with them. That's part of the joy for me is enjoying the gifts I give with them, seeing them enjoy. And we just don't think of God like that. Yet Jesus, last night on earth, John 15, you know, he says the same thing, basically he said to Santosh, he said, stay connected to me, walk with me, you know, moment by moment and you'll bear much fruit. Stay connected to my love. You know, when you do what I say, you do stay connected to my love. And then he said, I've told you these things so that my joy may be in you and your joy will overflow. Yeah. But we don't connect that. And I think so many people hide from God and they run from God or they run to other things and just kind of You know, they keep God here on a Sunday shelf. Like, yeah, we'll go think about Him on Sunday. But then I want what I want, right? I'm going to get it. But we fail to see that God is the one who, I mean, the deepest desires of our hearts are going to be met in and through Him. And I don't think people get that. But I think this book will help them get it. Because you hear from people, like that commercial airline pilot. that I was talking about Jim. Which how does a commercial airline pilot have 19 British cars and racing horses? British pilot that smuggled crack into Mexico? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. He did. He had a lot of other businesses. Okay. All right. That's fine. Yeah. And he said I was good at making wealth, but he never thought, never prayed to God once, but his wife was a believer and she prayed. And it's just a wild story. But he, so, Like I said, he cries out the last moment as his head's hitting the steering wheel. First he sees a hellish experience and then cries out to God again. And these three angels come, they're taking him basically on this tour of the most spectacularly beautiful place. Not unlike earth, mountains and trees and rivers and forests and grass, they're walking on his path. But what he realized is that he deserved nothing and yet God delighted to delight him. So when he first, so this angel comes and hugs him, he realizes this angel had been his guardian angel since his conception. And when he hugs him, he smells tapioca. Tapioca was the smell of his grandmother's home where he grew up in Canada when he lost his parents. And it was like home and these little details that God put in. And then they're walking along and the angel says, Jim, touch my rope. And he does. And he takes him up and he said, I was flying above the city of God. I realized that's what it was just like Santosh saw and interestingly, like another commercial airline pilot that I interviewed Captain Dale Black also got this aerial kind of holding pattern. over the city view. And Jim said, I think God wanted to give that to me because I'm an airline pilot. He knew how much I'd appreciate it. And then he comes back down and they're walking along and they come to a split rail fence. And the angel says, Jim, look, and here come from behind these trees, these three Arabian horses that come trotting up. And he's like, And here's the thing, Brian, another person, that CEO, had the same thing happen, where Jesus shows him, first of all, he shows him his life in review, and he shows him some of the worst moments of his life. He was a little kid being bullied, he was in the hospital all the time, he was overweight and picked on, had no friends, except his little dog, Casey, he was a little terrier, and it would jump up and lick him like a lollipop. you know, and it had died. And Jesus is showing them the review of these painful times. And he goes, Why are you showing me this? And then, and then Randy said to him, Were you there? Were you there when I was going through all that? And Jesus looks at him and says, I was always there waiting for you to turn to me. And then Jesus says, Look, And here in heaven comes Casey, his little dog, jumps up on him, he holds him, he's licking him like a lollipop. It's real life. And Jesus says this, and this is the point. He says to Randy, "'See, beloved, I give you the desires of your heart.'" That's Psalm 37, four. Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. These people that you quote, you have a lot of just great confidence-inspiring titles. CEO, airline pilot, millionaire who owns whatever, neurologist. You don't have any stories of people who earn minimum wage on work at McDonald's. Do the people not come forward, or you just people don't view them as believable. There are people like that in the book. I'm pointing out the ones, because people are so cynical, they don't take time to look. Yeah. Right. And I mean, I get it, because this is weird. I mean, here's a guy who talks to dead people. That's weird, right? Yeah. Actually, I talked to him after they're not dead, but it took me 35 years to be willing to write about it, because it is kind of like, what? And it takes some, it takes some work to look into it. But, um, the reason I point out these professionals is they have no, they have no motivation to make up stories like that. But yeah, you have all of these stories, people you talk to 1500, 2000, whatever is, how do they come to you? Does everyone know? Hey, if you see a big light, just call this guy, John Burke. He couldn't be in a senior pastor any longer, but he still writes his books. Do people, do people, do you just call people up and say, hi, Jesus might've told you about me. I am John Burke. I'm kind of a big deal in heavenlies because I've chronicled this more than anybody else. I mean, how do you find these people and talk to these people? I mean, you know, Brian, honestly, between you and me, that's, uh, I've looked back and thought, you know, Lord, was this. my life story because I don't know, I kept running into them. I kept running into them. I kept finding them. I kept reading them, studying them, meeting them. I ended up in Santa Barbara working as an engineer. That happened to be the epicenter in the eighties of where research about near death experiences was happening. How did that all happen? I don't know. So you're not reading about this in the newspaper, finding their phone number and calling them up. No, I mean. I studied thousands of them over 35 years. Okay. Now I'll be honest, when I felt like the Lord was saying, you know, I want you to write again, I was like, well, like I had 35 years to research before, you got to help me out, buddy. Right. So I have had people now coming to me from all over the world because I think, yeah, you're right. It's like, you know, I have interviewed so many. that others hear about it and go, oh, you got to talk to this guy. And then they reach out to me. I saw there's a movie coming out by, uh, I've had on the podcast, Dallas Jenkins of angel studios, all that stuff. Yes. And I saw a little trailer for that and heard your voice on it. So you're involved in that project, just as a narrator or what's your role in that project? Yeah, I'm one of the experts in it. Yeah. And, um, I mean, it actually, it started when Steven, the producer, seven years ago, reached out to me. He had lost a close friend and read Imagine Heaven and said, this needs to be made into a movie. And I was in a contract with Netflix doing the same thing at the time, which that didn't pan out. But I said, you know, he really, he really wanted to get the message of Jesus out. And I was like, well, I'll help you. So I connected him to all the, you know, the people in the book. And yeah, so it took a turn. It's different. I'm not associated with it in any way other than they interviewed me. It does a great job of proving there's, I think, showing the evidence and many skeptical doctors that I'd interviewed. You hear from them of what convinced them this is real. Who wins with these stories? Is it unbelievers who may just have just a little more gumption to step over the line? Or is it people like me who, every time I talk to you, you're telling me about these, John, every time I have it in my own mind. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's what life is about. Oh, yes, I keep thinking it's about my to-do list. I keep thinking it's about. you know, keeping myself morally pure, or I keep thinking it's about enjoying this life, or I keep thinking it's about taking new territory in the name of God. And all this brings a level of not stress, at least not fulfillment, and it never ends. And then when you tell a story, oh, that's right, that's why, that's why. That's what I'm living for. That's the dream, you know? And it just gives me a reset. I just, yesterday, a lot of our listeners are man camp alum or woman camp alum, which I helped start by never been there. I don't know why that they don't invite me to woman camp. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I know. I know. Right. And we that whole ministry is really going, going off the charts in so many ways. And so we need more land, and we will need different land and they mean something has maybe a lake on it just a real beautiful serene element to it. And so I went to a piece of property yesterday and walking around it. I oftentimes walk around property before we put offers on or buy it. Now I was looking to go seven times around it, pray over it around seven times in the same way that Joshua prayed around Jericho before it went down in the book of Joshua. And there's no paths on this thing around the outside perimeter. So I got my little GPS thing. I'm just going through thorn bushes and spiderwebs getting to my face. And it was hard. It was difficult. And I just kept thinking, man, is it worth the millions of dollars it's going to take? Because I don't want them doing this. And then when I hear you talk, I'm like, yes, because that's the point. The point is not more land. The point is not figuring out how to find and raise millions of more dollars. The point is more people will get to experience God for eternity in heaven. I just find myself encouraged every time you tell me about this stuff. So thank you, man. You got a great thing God's given you. It's so good. Well, and you know, I think it does it for me too. So, you know, I just... videotaped 40 hours of a bunch of these people. And I've been going through and every time I go through the videos, I have the same thing. And Brian, I think, you know, we've got to remember we live in a fog. We really do. Um, there is a veil and there's a fog and it just closes in so fast. And, um, God is so good. And I think when you hear it, when you see it in the scriptures, but then you see it in, in living color. the same thing. It just is like, Oh, I'll give you an example. So, Randy, the guy who, you know, Jesus said, look, and shows him his little dog in heaven. In his life review, he shows him after he was a CEO, and he's at his church, and he's volunteering at his church, and he's, he's teaching Bible study. And, and Jesus is showing him this. And they're kind of laughing because he's like, Man, I'm really up. tight, aren't I? If you would just relax and trust me more, it would be so much easier." And Randy said, you know, I realized that I was doing this, but I wasn't doing it really for the Lord or for those people. I was doing it to look like I was a good teacher. And it was stressing me out. The Lord was basically saying, you don't have to live stress like that. and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy, right? I'm gentle, come learn from me. I'm gentle and humble of heart. Well, and that yoke, someone reminded me of this recently. They reminded me of it or they taught it to me. I'd forgotten it or I needed to hear it for the first time, not sure, but they talked about that yoke and how when we oftentimes read about my yoke is easy, my burden is light. Well, okay, so God gives you less than you're taking on right now. No, in the ancient world, and the world just up to 70 years ago, there was a guy whose job it was to make a yoke. And it would be this wooden thing that would go around your neck, and it would go on the oxen. And the better fit that thing was to your neck, the more dispersed the weight was around your shoulders, and the less pain, and therefore the more you can pull. Our pain points are when we put things around our neck that aren't designed for us. Our pain points are when we're doing things that are, they're not God's will for us, but that are our will. If someone tried to do the things I'm dealing with, you get choked out. You could even bench press more than me, but you get choked out because you're not created to do those things. And if I did the things that you were doing, I'd probably get choked out, but God uniquely crafts a load for each of us. It's good stuff. Yeah, and I think that requires walking with Him. You know, we've got to listen. We've got to, we've got to slow down. Um, another thing. So Randy, this CEO, you know, who's very much like, like you and me type a hard charge, I mean, you don't get, you don't become a CEO of bio biotech companies. And, you know, uh, executive and largest pharmaceutical in the world. You're not so, so picture this, he's there with Jesus and Jesus says, I'm going to send you back beloved. And he's like, uh-uh, no, I don't want to go back, which is a common thing. Like once they're there, they're like, oh, that's like, one guy said, it's like being put back into the sewer. That's what he said to me. Right. You know, like, uh-uh, uh-uh. You wouldn't believe how many of them argue with God, which I love because it shows how relatable. We can be ourselves. And he's okay with it. And they never win an argument against God either, because they're here. They never do. Yeah, but he says to him, well, okay, if I have to go back, then tell me why, tell me my purpose. You know, what's my purpose? And he wanted a blueprint, you know, five-year plan. Give me what, if I have to go back to accomplish my purpose, tell me what my purpose is. And Jesus says, no, I'm not gonna do that, because then you would try to get out ahead of me. I want you to depend on me moment by moment. That's how you'll accomplish your purpose. Yeah, right. Well, you know, John, a lot of us have got a real bad image of heaven because we were given a bad image of heaven. We might have talked about this a little. earlier in one of our previous two times, but it's worth revisiting again. I've got so many questions here, dude. I'd like to do a two-parter with you again, but whatever. You got a lot of people demanding you. No, no, I'm always open. Always open for you, Big B. OK, well, let's do this question and this, and then if we want to set up our timer, do more, we can. Because I got a load of stuff here that is content that Dirt generates for me, and then I take and pick as I choose. But it's really good stuff. Good. But anyway, this is it right here. Um, you know, I'm, I have this new, uh, a new version of five marks from man and a study guide coming out and some other stuff. And the aggressive life podcast is not a man podcast. I am a man. I talk like a man, but it's not a man podcast. It's aggressive life podcast, but you know, men are drawn to it and everything. And what I find with this topic is a lot of guys, and so therefore I've been getting a lot of interviews on podcasts to pump the release of the book and all that stuff. And what regular comes up in those interviews is how Christianity is doing a really, really bad job reaching and inspiring men. It just doesn't happen. The most committed Christians in America are women. There are committed. men, but it's women. We all know this, the backbone of every church is the women, even if you don't believe women should be in leadership, because they're what does stuff, they're the most committed, right? And I think part of the reason is we paint a picture of life and we paint a picture of heaven that isn't attracted to men. Like, I don't know how many times I've heard a pastor stand up for to try to get his congregation to sing more, say, you know, if you don't like singing, well. You're going to have a really awful time in heaven because that's what we're going to be doing in heaven is just singing to God. And a lot of the guys go, oh, really? Well, maybe I need to be on the highway to hell anyway, because that's a better song. I actually would sing that song. I think there's this soft, ethereal, flowery, endless choir practice in heaven with angels and harps. that to my sensibilities doesn't fit. This is not what heaven is. Just finish our time. Give us a picture, even though these people haven't been there, they've peeked in your understanding of the Bible, the people you talk with, the things you put together, different data points. Just give us a picture of what we're living for. Yeah, I mean, the thing I like to say that I've heard many of these people say is, it's life. It's a life just like we experience here, but more real. Which, what's more real? Well, we're finite. We only have three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. But just imagine living this life and all the things that you love, believe it or not, God created. I mean, we can screw them up. We can misuse them, but there's nothing you have loved or enjoyed, whether it's... the thrill of a game or a conquest or a thrilling experience. One of my favorite stories in Imagine the God of Heaven is a 16 year old girl who loves speed. She would ride bareback just speeding through the mountains and stuff. And she grew up with her father telling her, there is no God. She grew up in a Jewish atheist household. There is no God. Your life is worthless. And Jesus was the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. She grew up with this every day, but she, and it was abusive household. She believed in God and prayed to God every night and felt his comfort and like he was there helping, helping her go to sleep. 16, her horse rears back falls on her and crushes her. She's up 30 feet in the air looking down at her body. She knows she's dead. This light comes and she turns and looks and it's Jesus. And she said, I wasn't shocked. Like, what's a nice Jewish girl like me doing with Jesus? She said, no, I knew him. This was the God, the man that I had prayed to my whole life. I knew that intuitively. And then in her life review, Jesus shows her when she was a little girl praying, he was the one sitting by her bedside. He shows her all this. But here's the part. He knew, you know, he takes her hand and he gets this big grin, and they take off. And she said, flying first through this world and then out into the galaxies. And they were going, she said, I don't know, felt like fast as the speed of light. And there was a wave of light under our feet and I could feel it. I was barefoot, so I could feel it. And I'd look over at Jesus and he's just grinning ear to ear. And he says, isn't this the coolest thing ever? And she said, it was the most fun I've ever had in my entire life. And that was one of those that when Heidi first told me that, I was like, I want to believe it, but that's just too far out there. Right? Yeah. And then I hear another teenager saying the same thing. And then I have someone in our church who came to faith because their little four-year-old who had died, you know, in birth, right, had basically died and they brought him back multiple times in birth. at four kept saying to her, I wanna go run and play with Jesus in the fields again. And she's like, we don't believe in Jesus. We never taking you to church. What are you talking about? And they came to our church and came to faith, you know, because of it. God is full of life and adventure. He thought it all up. So what I would say to the person who thinks they're gonna be bored, is there's going to be work, there's going to be assignments, there are going to be, Jesus said this, there's going to be treasures that last, these don't. Live for that because those do. And what we do in this life really does matter for a life that is more fulfilling, more real, more of all the things you love and many that you've never even imagined, right? And so, you know, the thing I could say is, look, the best of this life is a gift from God, but it also got screwed up. And that's really evident. Yeah, it's a bad and incomplete reflection of what heaven is going to be like. Because God is absent. Yeah. That's it. His will and ways are not always done on this earth. He's absent. And that's why Jesus taught us to pray, your will be done on earth through me as it is in heaven, because it's not on earth. And so what I would say is, yeah, you know, get connected to God, stay connected to him, trust him because he's so trustworthy. And he gets you. Like he gets you more than anybody gets you. More than you get you. That's the crazy thing. And he just wants honest relationship. And that's how we fulfill our purpose. But it's also how we prepare for the real life that's going to last. So last thought from you, John. What is the one concrete takeaway that we can do? Or even by me saying things I can do, I'm missing the point. What's the? What's the thing the there for? How is this research influencing your day-to-day life? What kind of things should I be reframing in my mind? Are there new things I should have in my to-do list? Like, what's the, other than being less stressed out with the way things are right now, other than being glad there's a great new day that's coming, which is great, like what about like the practical? Is there a practical thing we should all be doing as a result of this? Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tell you, it really has changed over the years. Understanding this has brought what the scriptures say to life in a whole new way. One of the people you probably know led a huge church in Cincinnati, had a near-death experience. I don't know if you know this. Steve Shogren? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I do. But yeah, go ahead, tell it again. Well, he's there with the Lord. And again, like you and I, he spent his life, you know, building this church that reached lots of people and, you know, was helping people follow God and all that. And in God's presence, he felt incredible love, he felt incredible acceptance, all that. But the Lord also asked him a question. He said, what are the names of your kids' best friends? Yeah. That's all he asked him. And Steve was like, oh, they've been over to my house a lot. I was friendly to them. I hadn't even taken the time to get to know their names. And what the Lord was saying to him is, what I care about is not that you build big organizations or you do this or do that for me. I care about how you love me in order to love the people I've put in your path. And that's central. That is. And it shouldn't shock us. I mean, this is what God said to Moses. It's what Jesus reiterated. You know, love God first, love your neighbor as much as you love yourself, and that's the whole Bible. And so it's really simple, you know? And I think what I would add to that, Brian, is that just be honest with God about everything. I mean, I'm brutally, I'm really honest with them. I'm like, Lord, you know that thought, man, that was not of you. You know, and you know what? I really want to keep going there because that's the truth. I'm like that honest with him. Right. And it's amazing how he, he's kind and he walks with you through and he helps you. He helps you and that's how you grow. And it's kind of like the way my little one-year-old granddaughter is learning to walk. She falls a lot. I don't step on her and go, man, you will never walk. You're worthless. She's fallen. We think God's like that. He's not like that. He's better than us. I reached down and I pick her up and said, try again. She does. One day she runs. John, tell us where to go from here. Where do we find your book? Point us to what you want us to do. Well, I mean, you know, Imagine the God of Heaven is out on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. It's going to be on Costco. It's pretty cool. If you pre-order before November 7th, my publisher is offering a free audio book that you can listen to right away. If you want to get that, go to imaginethegodofheaven.com. Just the book name, imaginethegodofheaven.com, and it'll tell you how you can get a free audio book right now. The free audio book, are you the narrator? I am. Alright, good for you, John. Yeah, you have nothing better to do. You're not a senior pastor anymore. Just sitting around. You know, it's my love language. Oh man. All right. Hey, this is a man. I love you. I really do, man. Every time I'm with you, it's, I mean, it's been what 26 years we've walked down the same path. That's a long time. Yeah, it certainly is. So I'd love to have you back again. I mean, Mike, I don't know. I can't. Continue now, but should we do a two parter? You want to do a two parter, Dirt? What do you think? I don't know. As much as you want, we can get. Well, actually, I don't even know why I'm asking. You're the most listened to person we've ever had. So it's like, Keep turning the crank. That's right. I should keep squeezing the juice, just squeezing the turnip, wringing as much out of you can't. Because you know, it's really all about me. If I get more listeners and more subscribers, I'm just gonna use my friend to build my empire. That's what I'm gonna say. Okay, we'll do another one. We will do another one. Obviously need another one. You didn't hear anything I just said. Oh man. That's true. That would be, that's right. I'm going to pay for that with Jesus. I'm not going to be going fast in a rainbow with him. He's going to be just, no, he, he gets, he, he thinks you're funny. Even if your dog doesn't. Good. Okay. Everybody. Hey, there it is. John never. There are fails to push me and enlighten me and help me and make me laugh. He's just one of the, one of the, one of my favorite people in the world. Seriously. He is. I'm gonna start crying. If I don't shift the image, shift the stuff. The man means a lot to me. He really does. And he's meant a lot to us by building into us. And, hey, he can build into you again, if you want to check out his book, Imagine the God of Heaven. Last one was Imagine Heaven. This is Imagine the God of Heaven. Thanks, John, for being on our show. We will have you again. We'll set it up. And that's all folks. Hey, again, we gave you a lot of good thoughts here, a lot, a lot, a lot of good thoughts. It's called the Aggressive Life. So I want you to do something with those thoughts. Take the yoke off you that isn't meant for you. Put the yoke on you that God has prepared for you. Just choose to think of different things than the average negative Nellie does. God loves you and he's got a lot for you. We'll see you next time on The Aggressive Life. Thanks for joining us on this journey toward aggressive living. Find more resources, articles, past episodes and live events over at bryantome.com. My new books, a repackaged edition of The Five Marks of a Man and a brand new Five Marks of a Man Tactical Guide are open right now on Amazon. If you haven't yet, leave this podcast a rating and review. It really helps get the show in front of new listeners. And if you want to connect, find me on Instagram, at Brian Tome. The Aggressive Life is a production of Crossroads Church, Cincinnati, Ohio.