Erin: In the beautiful state of Oaxaca in Mexico, there's a growing trend.

Snowbirds, i.

e.

people who escape from Canada and other cold climates for the winter

months, are claiming beachfront land.

They are buying into developments for properties, being promised

that these properties will be their perfect vacation home.

The problem is, the land that's being developed is not up for grabs.

It's communally owned by Indigenous and rural residents.

We're curious about this growing trend, and so today we're

chatting with Dawn Marie Paley.

Dawn is a journalist and author based in Mexico, and she wrote a piece for

Breach Media covering this issue.

We're going to unpack why this is able to happen.

Cause let's be real.

It sounds pretty colonial.

And we'll talk about how gentrification is impacting Mexico.

And of course how tourism is contributing to it.

Kattie: Is this the first time that you've listened to curious tourism,

the responsible travel podcast?

If so, make sure that you've hit the follow button right now on

Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, because there

is plenty more to come this season.

Erin: If you want to get in touch with us, you can find us on Instagram.

at Curious Tourism Pod.

You can DM us or email us anytime.

All of our contact info is in the episode description.

Kattie: Okay, Erin, um, I am so excited about this episode because it includes

one of my favorite things, which is juicy gossip about the travel industry.

And one of the things that we talk about with Dawn is the impacts of Airbnb in

Mexico City, but there is some recent travel news around Airbnb that has come

out that I wanted to talk to you about.

I really wanted to hear what you think about the recent ban on Airbnb

that came out in New York City.

So, yes.

We

Erin: need to discuss this.

Okay, there's one thing I need to say off the bat, though, that I thought was really

interesting because the New York Times did a great episode about this, about

what it means and the impact it's having.

And one point that they made is that Airbnbs actually makes up

a really small percentage of the apartments that are in New York City.

So the journalist that was covering this was saying they're not actually sure this

will have a huge impact on like housing.

Okay, that's

Kattie: very interesting because I was reading an article about this from

Wired and they kept referring to like, Airbnb listers as business owners and

my immediate reaction was, okay, if they are taking away the ability for

people to profit off of human rights, aka shelter Then I am all for it, but

then also I went on to Airbnb and was looking at just like the sheer amount

of Airbnb listings that are on there, and like, there's a pretty good amount

of listings in New York City on Airbnb, like I was planning a trip to New York

City last summer, I was fully planning on booking an Airbnb because I was

thinking it's so much cheaper than hotels.

So now I'm thinking, okay, if all of these listings are gone from Airbnb,

then I kind of hope that there's some sort of regulation in place

that makes hotels more affordable.

Because people ultimately did gravitate towards Airbnb

because it was a cheaper option.

Not that it is really anymore, but like, you know what I mean?

Erin: In my mind, what it comes down to is It's back in the glory days of

Airbnb in which I was extremely invested.

I literally was a host at that time.

This was like six, seven years ago.

In those days, Airbnb was about renting out like a spare room.

Luke and I used to rent out the spare bedroom in our apartment and we did it.

In part, because we could barely pay our bills and it was a nice way to help, but

we also did it because we loved meeting people like I'll never forget like the

couples that came and stayed with us.

There was this Brazilian couple that stayed with us for like two weeks

and they sent us emails after like thanking us for all our recommendations.

It was just like a really fun way to engage with like visitors and

share our neighborhood with them.

Those were the glory days of Airbnb because at that time, yeah.

Airbnb was cheaper because you typically were staying in someone else's house.

I remember Phil and I, when we were back packing around Scotland, we only did that.

Like we were always staying in apartments with Scottish people and

that was like part of the fun of it.

Yes, it was cheaper, but it was also fun.

But nowadays it has become like really.

Like maybe commercial is not the right word, but it has just turned into

like a business for people because now it's pretty rare that you see

Airbnb listings where like you're actually staying in someone's home

with them It's typically just like an apartment that someone has rented

or bought for the purpose of Airbnb.

I do agree Like it's it's basically just a hotel then and I don't find that it's

cheaper anymore like it usually costs around the same and then the point I

was gonna say about New York is like New York is just always going to be

expensive at this point because like those properties are in high demand.

I don't think there's a world in which like hotels are going to become cheaper,

but Airbnbs won't become cheaper either.

So in my mind like the most important thing is that like

locals can afford to live.

And I don't know this journalist from the New York Times was saying like this

ban might not make a huge difference for people like looking for apartments.

It's not going to like automatically bring down the price.

It might like inject more housing availability, which creates less

competition, I guess, for apartments.

Kattie: Okay, I have so many thoughts, because if you're in New

York City, how do you even find all the Airbnb listings on there?

Because You could go on to Airbnb and find all of the listings that exist there.

But if you're New York City and these people are making money off of their

listing, then even if you private DM them, they're not going to reply to you.

And if you try and work with Airbnb, they're not going to like,

be cooperative more than likely.

But the big factor here is that now Airbnb listings have to be registered and there

are all these different like nuanced rules around how Airbnb listers have to like

be home when people are staying over at their houses, kind of like back to the

old school couch surfing style of Airbnb.

But that also makes things tricky for the people who do have their apartment

listed on Airbnb and like might be gone for a weekend And just want to like make

I don't know a couple hundred bucks from somebody staying over at their place like

for a few days while they're not there and like not all the time because this

isn't their second home, but also Like, they live in New York City, so it might

be nice to kind of help out with the rent.

I just wonder how New York City is going to deal with relying and hoping that

people are actually going to register their Airbnbs, but also deal with all

the little nuances of how Airbnb really does help people kind of pay their

rent and, like, get by day to day by living in, like, a very expensive city.

There's just so many little factors at play here, and I am

just very interested to see where this ends up in a year from now.

Erin: Well, in Toronto, it hasn't made much of a difference.

We didn't have Airbnb banned, but they did introduce, like, way

stricter legislation around it.

So, like, now in Toronto, you have to own the property, you can't be

renting a place, and you have to apply to the city for a permit for

short term rentals, and Airbnb.

So they really tightened it up here in Toronto, but, like, I don't know.

I haven't noticed any difference.

Apartments definitely aren't getting cheaper.

No,

Kattie: that is very true.

You are never leaving your apartment ever.

But yeah, it's, it's an interesting idea.

I'm very excited to see some sort of crackdown on landlords.

But again, we will see where this sits in a year from now, I guess.

Okay, so also there was some travel news that you wanted

to talk about, so lay it on

Erin: me.

Yeah, so I recently read in the news that Egypt is going to be changing

the entry requirements for Canadians.

Okay.

So.

It used to be an e visa, which means before you arrive in Egypt, like

within three months ahead of your arrival, you can apply for this e visa.

It's an online form, you submit it, usually within 48 hours you receive

your visa, and then when you arrive at the airport you just show this

like QR code and you're good to go.

Lots of countries do this and Canadians with our passport privilege are very

used to e visas because it's, you know, we have passport privilege so most

countries will let us apply that way.

Egypt has changed the rules now as of October 1st, Canadians will

not be able to use an e visa.

You'll have to apply directly through a consulate for a visa to

go to Egypt, which is much more work and much more complicated.

And I saw on Reddit, the most interesting like thread of essentially just like

Canadians Complaining about this and I just thought it was so interesting

because I was like, this is the reality of like most people in the world

Having access to e visas and having our passport privilege like makes

travel so much easier for us It's just interesting to see how upset people

are when that, like, privilege is taken

Kattie: away.

I mean, it is funny because in you telling me this, my immediate reaction

was like, okay, how is this news though?

Well,

Erin: it's in the news because they're definitely going to have Canadians

showing up without a visa now.

I know,

Kattie: that's why it's so funny because like, I don't think a lot of

people think about how convenient and easy it is for like Canadians to just

be romping around all over the place.

Erin: Well, no, like applying for visas has always been a thing.

Like my mom, when she tells me about when she was traveling in the 80s, she was

like, you always had to go to a consulate.

Like e visas are a pretty new thing, but I think a lot of people of our

generation are just so used to it.

to like showing up and like, have you ever had to apply for

a visa before going to country?

Kattie: No, I have never applied for a visa.

Erin: Exactly.

Most people haven't done it.

And I've actually only done it a couple times.

Because like for Canadians, we just have like so much

privilege behind our passport.

It's like so easy.

You literally just have to show up or submit a form online.

So it was just interesting seeing, I guess like there was an air of entitlement in

the discussion I was seeing around this.

And like, is it annoying?

Yes, I do intend to go to Egypt, like probably in the next year.

And it's a bit annoying, but like, you know what, most Most people

have to do this when they travel so I'm gonna do it and I'm not

gonna complain about it because like it's just a reality of travel.

An interesting commentary I saw in the thread too was like Egyptians

saying back to Canadians commenting in the thread, do you know how hard

it is for us to come to your country?

So part of me is like, maybe this is Egypt being like, F you for making it so hard.

We're going to do it back to you.

Kattie: Honestly, I'm all for that.

I am down with all of us who have passport privilege being

humbled every once in a while.

Wait, okay, I have more questions about this then.

Because if you're like country hopping, do you have to go to the

consulate in that country to then get your e visa like mid trip?

Like what are you expected to do then?

There's, like, there's no easier way to just, like, do it online?

No.

Like, what if there's no consulate in the country that you're in?

Like, you have to leave the whole ass country to, like, go to a different

country to go to that consulate to get a visa for a different

country that you're going to?

Wait,

Erin: what?

Oh, yeah, like, it's a nightmare.

You should hear my mom talking about it.

She's like, every time we switched country, she was like, in my day,

you had to slow travel because it took, like, two weeks just to get

your visa to the next country.

Kattie: If only we actually had that much vacation time to go to consulates

and wait, like, weeks on end for visas.

So yeah, that's just a little bit of the interesting travel

news that has come out recently.

There's quite a few other interesting stories out there.

But if you find something very interesting that you would like Erin

and I to talk about more, please

Erin: send it to us.

Send us stuff that you find interesting because I'm always curious.

I'm very much involved in the travel Reddit

Kattie: Reddit?

I had no idea.

Erin: That's where I get a lot of these sensational travel news bits, but yeah.

Kattie: I still can't figure out Reddit, but I'm there with you in spirit.

All

Erin: right, well, shall we start chatting with Dawn?

Yep,

Kattie: let's do it.

Erin: Well, hi Dawn.

I loved your article in The Breach.

I learned a lot.

It sent me down like a rabbit hole of reading about land agreements in Mexico.

You are an investigative journalist based in Mexico.

A lot of your work is focused on understanding how the war on drugs

has impacted daily life there.

and how it relates to state power, but you've also covered issues,

uh, related to gentrification in Mexico, which is how we found you.

So the article that I just mentioned was published earlier this year, and

it covers how Canadian developers are gentrifying beaches in Oaxaca.

So I was hoping you could share your path to covering these issues and any personal

connection you might have to them.

Dawn Marie Paley: Thanks for having me.

It's great to be here.

I started working as a journalist in my early twenties and Being a Canadian

mining was just starting to become something that folks are becoming

more aware of is a really problematic aspect of a Canadian foreign policy.

And so the first sort of international work that I did was

about Canadian mining companies.

And in Argentina, and I did some work in Ecuador on a film called Under Rich Earth,

which is about a community resisting a copper mine owned by a Canadian company.

In Colombia and Central America, I spent quite a bit of time in Guatemala

and eventually ended up in Mexico.

And I kind of ended up And I mean, what I, what I would do is kind of

go between secretarial work in Canada and sort of temping and that type

of thing to save up money and, you know, live with a bunch of roommates.

And then I take a few months and come down into the South and, and

report mostly for independent media.

Eventually I kind of felt like the story of bad Canadian mining

companies was a story that I just was telling over and over again.

My first book is kind of a, an effort to take a step back

and kind of get out of the.

the wheel of the bad company coming into a community and dividing that community and

polluting that community's land and into a much more structural look at sort of how

does this fit into capitalism and also how does the violence in these countries and

specifically Colombia, Central America and Mexico, what is the, what is the violence

in these societies attributed to the war on drugs have to do with extractivism?

So that's kind of how I ended up.

Working on my first book, which is Drug War Capitalism.

And then I ended up doing a PhD in Mexico in sociology, um, at a Mexican public

university in Puebla where I'm based and I've just been here ever since.

So

Erin: gentrification is something we've touched on a few times, um,

but it's always sort of in passing.

We'll just sort of mention it as being a factor in an issue that we're discussing

about, which I think is one of the things that makes it so interesting.

Gentrification, I think, is one of those issues that touches so

many different areas of life.

Um, so by basic definition, it's the process where an urban area changes

and it's typically because of wealth.

So it can cause changes in housing, create new businesses, and often the original

inhabitants of that place are displaced because the cost of living goes up.

So Don, I know gentrification isn't your primary focus in your work, but

based on your experience, even your own lived experiences living in Mexico,

would you agree with this definition or do you have anything to add to it?

I

Dawn Marie Paley: mean, I think it's a good starting point.

My reporting in Oaxaca was, uh, focused on the coast of Oaxaca,

which, which is not urban.

Um, so I would maybe expand the definition a little bit.

It, you know, this can happen in rural areas as well.

Displacement to me is really like the key, the key word there.

Gentrification can appear to be like a very sanitized process.

The kind of gentrification that's happening in Mexico City has included,

you know, entire buildings of residents who've been there for 10 or 15 or 20

years being evicted onto the streets with all of their possessions.

Erin: Yeah.

And would you say that it's always rooted in this power imbalance where it's like

wealthier communities coming in and displacing people with less wealth?

Dawn Marie Paley: I think in general, although I would hesitate to maybe

use the word communities just because There's so many factors of who's

coming in again, if we're looking at Mexico right now, certain places in

Mexico, we see that it's foreigners and you'd say people from a wealthy part

of Mexico City going to Oaxaca, etc.

So there's a mix, but certainly there's a class element to it.

Yeah,

Erin: I think like personally, I feel like more experienced, that's a weird

word to say, but like, I've seen the effect of gentrification myself, like

in my own city here in Toronto, but I'm not super familiar with the concept

of gentrification in more rural areas like beaches, would you say there's

similarities in how it's experienced?

Or are there like key differences between how it impacts like a

beach versus a more urban city?

Dawn Marie Paley: Yeah, that's, that's a good question.

I think it, you know, it would really depend from place to place.

So if we're going to go to Oaxaca a little bit, um, where I was doing this reporting,

which for folks who travel to Mexico might know is around Huatulco or Puerto

Escondido, those are the kind of two main, um, urban areas and between Huatulco

and Puerto Escondido and on either side, in fact, of, of those municipalities.

There's, um, rural farming communities that are mixed, uh,

Indigenous, Zapotec, and Black.

Majority folks who are, you know, dependent on the same lifeways that their

ancestors, um, have been involved in.

Of course, there's...

out migration and a lot of people are working in tourism, but there's

still folks who are dedicated to, you know, growing corn, beans, squash,

practicing the traditional life ways.

Those life ways are basically what's under threat.

I mean, I think the short way to understand gentrification in more rural

areas is, is pretty much land theft.

So it's not like there's an existing building where folks living in

that building are being evicted and different folks are coming

in paying twice as much in rent.

It's rather this clash of cosmologies are coming from the outside.

A Canadian looking at these beaches might say, look, they're empty.

Whereas folks, the indigenous communities who are living there are saying, in

fact, this is where we harvest, this is where we, you know, do these different

gathering activities that we've been practicing since time immemorial, or

are growing actively different crops.

That is just like colonialism and land theft, right?

And in that case, and I think the other thing, just very briefly

in the case of Oaxaca, this is actually true in much of Mexico.

Is that the land is, is communally owned, so the land title is made out to, you

know, it can be dozens in the case of Oaxaca, it's hundreds of individuals

who are actively participating in farming on that land, so they are the

owners of that land, and it should not be sold to any private individual,

especially a foreign individual.

Yeah.

Erin: Okay, we're going to get into this specific example more in depth.

But before we do that, there's one more question I wanted to touch on, which

is, like, I think I know the answer.

My gut knows the answer.

But I do see this debated sometimes, and it's, can gentrification be good, ever?

And the reason I bring this up is because in the context of tourism, I see some

people try to argue I mean, it's mostly developers that are trying to argue

this, but they're saying, Oh, like, this is going to create opportunities

for local people to grow their economy.

I personally wonder about this because I've seen so many examples of this

leading to unsustainable over tourism, and people still end up displaced from

their homes and their communities.

And I also like struggle with it because I wonder what kind of

like agency people have over that.

It's like, sure, like tourism could help grow our economy.

But what if a community doesn't want that?

Like they should be in control over that.

Dawn Marie Paley: Well, it's good for somebody.

Controversially, actually, in Mexico City at the end of last year,

the mayor announced that she was signing an agreement with Airbnb.

To basically promote Mexico City as a hub for digital nomads and people, you

know, immediately started protesting and they're just immediately started to

be like a really intense conversation and a lot of anger because housing

in Mexico City and in other places in Mexico has become so much more

expensive, especially since the pandemic.

But the argument that the city is making is that if they can capture 5

percent of the digital nomads in the U.

S.

That will represent like almost 4 billion of income for Mexico City, and then

they go on to make those very familiar arguments about, you know, how that 4

billion will translate into, you know, jobs, opportunities, investment for

Mexico, which is supposed to raise the standard of living for Mexicans, right?

The question is, where are people going to live?

How advantageous is it to have foreign investment when you can no longer, you

know, when a one month of rent is, It's three times what minimum wages in a month.

And you know, the mayor has kind of since walked back a little

bit of the enthusiasm on that.

But as far as I know, that agreement with Airbnb and the city of Mexico.

is, is still there.

So one of the things that happened recently was that one of the sort

of local mayors in Mexico City made all of the small stands selling like

tortas, sandwiches, tacos, and so on.

But they often have like hand painted signs on their booth and like depicting

like the food that they're selling and they made them paint over them all and

put like an official seal on all of them.

And so it's this kind of thing where people were outraged, right?

Because it's like that, those paintings, those hand done

paintings is part of, is culture.

That is culture.

And so what is happening in the process of gentrification is also

the erasure of Mexican, of Mexico city culture in these neighborhoods.

So it's, yeah, super problematic.

And you know, why is that just to make things, everything homogenous,

to make everything accessible, to make everything look clean, like.

What is this like Scandinavia?

Come on.

And I think it's important to think about race as well, because the idea of digital

nomads is essentially gringos and people with passports and people with dollars.

And this is in a country where Central American migrants are criminalized,

imprisoned, you know, 40 migrants were burned to death in a detention center and

see that what is a couple of months ago.

So the digital nomad in Mexico City is very much racialized

as a white, wealthy traveler.

And the fact that the government is encouraging that type of travel and

that type of arrival, displacing Mexicans, while at the same time just

absolutely discriminating against Central American migrants, migrants

of African descent, Haitians, etc.

It's disgusting.

You know, it's it's, you know, it feels like a kind of a migration

apartheid system where there really is absolutely two different

classes depending on what passport

Erin: you hold.

The Mexico City example is so interesting to me because it's one that I've seen

people have very heated debates over within the digital nomad community,

because I've have said to people, like, I'm not comfortable going and

living as a digital nomad in Mexico City because I've seen the evidence

that local people don't want that.

And if that's what local people are saying, I don't think, I think you

should listen to what the people have to say and not the government.

But a common argument back is like, I had one person say, Oh, well, I'm going

to go stay in like Condesa or Roma where all the apartments are expensive anyways.

So I won't have an impact because like those.

communities are already gentrified, those neighborhoods are already wealthy

neighborhoods, it's where wealthy local people live, and so it won't

have the same impact if I stay there.

And I never know what to say to that argument, because it's just like, to

me, it's more based on what I'm hearing from local people, that's going to

be a better judge of like, whether it's acceptable to go there or not.

Yeah,

Dawn Marie Paley: I mean, Roma and Condesa are two examples of

neighborhoods that have Transformed.

It is something to think about that that kind of positioning.

I think that I think the reality is that that Roman Condesa neighborhoods,

which are sort of quite central in Mexico City are no longer going to

be affordable for digital nomads, either, like the idea of coming and

renting a place for 200 or 300 a month.

That doesn't exist in Roma Condesa anymore, not even close, right?

So it's really always very problematic when people say things like, Oh,

so cheap compared to New York city.

And it's just like, how dare you?

Um, because the, you know, the wages that people are making don't even come close

at all to what your spending power is.

So, you know, I think those types of comparisons should be avoided.

I don't know.

I have obviously like I've lived in Mexico now for 10 years.

I'm a permanent resident here.

It's very difficult to rent an apartment in Mexico.

It's, you need a lot of documents.

You need someone that is going to sign legal papers saying

that they'll pay your rent.

If you skip the country, you need.

Really a lot of proof.

So a lot of what I think the rent increase, how it's justified is

basically making it easy for these digital quote unquote digital nomads.

I don't think that we should call them that either.

But these sort of people working remotely, what they're paying for is, is avoiding

that paperwork, um, and living in these really desirable neighborhoods.

But they're paying rents that are like three, four times more expensive than,

you know, what it might have been.

a certain amount of years ago.

And again, I don't have all the numbers on this, but I mean, for sure, even

compared to other parts of Mexico, these rents in Mexico City are just

like, you know, feels like Manhattan.

I do think that local people are saying quite firmly, this

kind of development is not good.

And I guess my question is like, why, why, why do you need to live here?

If you're just here to just eat out in restaurants and live in a nice

apartment, then yeah, don't come.

Erin: Okay, so I wanted to talk more in depth about the article that you

wrote for Breach Media about how a residential project developed by two

Albertans is promising Canadians a quote, incredibly private and unique

oceanfront opportunity in Oaxaca, Mexico.

They frame this as a chance for snowbirds to buy land and trade winter for

quote, live musicians and cold beers.

But as we mentioned before the land being developed is stolen.

It's communal land that these developers do not have the right or

the permissions needed to develop.

So you had a great conversation with Rick Harp over indigena podcast about how this

land actually being stolen and developers not having permissions to build there is.

Based on some historical context, um, surrounding that land.

So I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that.

Dawn Marie Paley: Yeah, that was that was a fun podcast.

Rick is awesome.

Yeah.

And it made me think a lot too.

So Oaxaca is, uh, is a state in the south of Mexico.

Oaxaca city itself is actually also undergoing like a very

deep process of gentrification.

It's probably one of the sort of top five destinations right now.

I'm just pulling that top five.

Kind of off the top of my head, but that's the sense like I

think you're right because

Erin: I hear about a lot of

Dawn Marie Paley: people who are Mexico City, Oaxaca, San Miguel de

Allende, there's a handful of places that are basically part of a circuit

where gringos really like to go.

And Oaxaca is one of them.

Oaxaca City, in particular, you know, had a massive social uprising

in 2006, led by teachers, joined by like a broad segment of society.

Um, and that uprising was basically quashed after months and

months and months of resistance.

And what we've kind of seen since sort of the bulldozing or the attempt to sort

of bulldoze and just flatten the really radical demands Oaxaca, you know, for

labor rights, for land rights, et cetera.

And.

Really open the city up for a process of gentrification.

So the city is connected to the coast by a couple of different,

I would call them highways.

They're like twisty mountain roads.

It's a fairly long journey, but you can get from Oaxaca City to

the coast in about eight hours.

And then there's also international airports in Huatulco and Puerto Escondido.

So Huatulco, for example, in the winter has charter flights

to Vancouver and I'm not sure, like Calgary, that kind of thing.

And Huatulco was actually created through a massive expropriation in the

80s, um, a massive expropriation of common land, of communally owned land.

And it's basically like a, um, a model city or a kind of a, a city built

specifically with tourism in mind.

And now there's lands.

all along that coast that are increasingly of interest to, to

Canadians, to folks from the U.

S.

who want basically a second home, a vacation property.

There's one resort that I looked at in that article that has been built.

It's called Vivo Resorts near Puerto Escondido.

And there's a lot of issues with that one, um, also on communal land.

And then the one you mentioned, it's called Santa Maria, Maria Shadani.

So the, the developers are saying that it's Watulco, but it's

actually technically not Watulco and, you know, the developers claim

that their papers are in order.

They claim that they have all the rights to the land and so on, but the

local people say that that's not true, that it was a series of basically.

Bad agreements and and getting an inch and taking a meter type of thing just to

mix two different measurement systems, but where developers ended up moving in

and just starting to actually build on the beach on communal land with the proposal

of selling individual lots to Canadians.

That's that's the basis of the conflict.

I think Mexico is a very complex legal environment at the best of times.

Um, and then when you add, um, indigenous common land or indigenous

communal land into the equation, it just becomes so incredibly complex.

But of course, the communities have been navigating all the tribunals

that they can, because these are basically agricultural lands.

Indigenous folks in Oaxaca don't use the beaches to like lie around

in bathing suits and get sunburns.

They use the beaches for harvesting, um, food, for

harvesting plants, and for fishing.

And they're actively doing all those things, right?

And it comes back to this idea, you know, and I know in the podcast,

Rick asked me, like, do you know what terra nullius is, right?

And that is what is happening.

It's this, these people coming from outside going like, oh, this is empty.

Because there's no resorts here.

So there's no one here.

Um, instead of actually spending enough time in a place to see that actually

there is a series of uses being given to this land that have sustained life in

these territories for thousands of years.

They just can't see it or they don't want to see it.

So it's, it's a very deep conflict.

And I actually, you know, there was three different areas where, where

there's this problem that I looked at in, in that article in the breach.

One of them, it's already been built and there's people living there.

One of them is in the process of being built.

Um, that's the one that, that you mentioned, and the one that

is just outside of Huatulco.

And there's a third where they have actually managed to block the

entry of these interested parties and there's nothing built so far.

So each one is kind of in a different stage as well of

resistance and, and, and awareness.

Erin: There's just, like, so much to unpack about this.

There's also, like, so many parallels that I'm hearing between, like,

what's happening here and what's happening even here in Canada with

the way that, like, stolen land is developed with, like, no care for how

that land is, like, sustaining life.

So it's just really depressing to think about how Canadians are

just going and doing that same colonizing, but in other countries as

Dawn Marie Paley: well.

But I mean, I think the part that's not depressing is the fact that

in Canada and in Mexico, people, Indigenous folks, are resisting

always and to not lose sight of that.

Like that's something I think where we can take a lot of inspiration

and a lot of direction as well.

Erin: So there's clearly a connection between gentrification and colonialism.

Could you speak a little to that and explain how these two things

connect to each other and, and sort of like play into each other?

Dawn Marie Paley: Yeah, I mean, in the case of the, of the Oaxaca coast, to me,

it was very much like this is colonialism.

I wouldn't have thought about it as gentrification necessarily,

but when I spoke to my sources, they were using gentrification

to describe what was happening.

Especially in rural areas, it's very, it's quite clear that it's,

it is just an extension of a, of a colonial process of removal.

What's so interesting though, is that during the colonial period,

the ancestors on these territories in Oaxaca All of these generations

back, they actually had their land recognized by the colonial government.

They have titles, collective titles, that predate the

existence of the Mexican Republic.

Wow.

That were granted by the Spanish, and that's of course because they organized

to demand that their lands be recognized and that their lands not be impinged upon.

So it's worth thinking about how what's happening now in some ways is even

worse than what was happening during the colonial period when at least these

lands were demarcated and recognized.

By a government and then, you know, the slow and sometimes fast erosion of those

land rights since the Mexican Republic and then the really the acceleration

and it really traces back to Cancun in Mexico, which is, you know, one of the

biggest tourism developments in the world.

That was basically it's been created over the last 50 years, transforming super

rural fishing communities into these just.

money making bonanzas for, for wealthy elites, basically, um, because it has

to do, and I don't know if you've talked about this on other On other episodes,

but like this thing about just like going to the beach and just like lying on the

beach Like I don't know where that comes from like You know, it's just weird to

me like it's literally 40 degrees and the Sun is gonna like Singe you within five

minutes And this is not a thing, like not a use that local folks ever gave to

this land, like the beach sand land is a very sensitive ecosystem, famously in

Oaxaca you have the baby turtles, but you have all kinds of species living in this

very like little strip of sand between the crashing waves, because there's huge

waves in Oaxaca and the jungle basically.

Right.

And then there's the mountains right behind it.

But like this idea of going and lying and hanging out on the beach, that

was never a use given to that land.

And so it would be cool to do a podcast episode about like, how

does this thing about just like going and lying on the beach?

Become part of what is desirable to do on your vacation.

I

Erin: mean, I'm very curious about it too, and I have a feeling

that it like has to do with like leisurely, decadent travel and class,

but like stretching back a ways.

Like there was probably a period in time where they said, what's something we

can send like rich people to do that's like very decadent and leisurely, and

it's like sit on a beach and do nothing.

Dawn Marie Paley: It's recent, right?

It's relatively recent.

And so I have

Erin: researched this.

Yeah, it does have to do with like sort of the rise of accessible tourism.

So when like flying became more accessible to the quote unquote

average person, which was like really like the 50s, the 40s, 50s, when

people started like flying south.

to go be in beaches, but yeah, I'm really curious, like, sort of who is accountable

for this, I guess, is my question.

Like, obviously, these two Albertans hold some accountability in this, and

it's so frustrating because, like, especially being Canadian, you would

I think people are a bit more informed about like what colonization looks like,

but like how accountable are they and how accountable are the people that

are actually buying these properties?

It annoys me because there's such an obsession I find with like

Canadians and buying property in like the global South because

Dawn Marie Paley: it's cheap.

That I mean, I said before we went on the air, I was like, I don't

know too much about like tourism.

I don't really want to give people advice, but I do want to say don't buy land.

Especially communal land in a foreign country, like, just don't do it.

Like, it's not a good idea.

I think accountability, like from my point of view, should also, I mean, it's

the Mexican government needs to uphold Mexican laws, which according to the

constitution and according to agrarian law should be recognizing the titles.

Of these communities, the communal titles, which they have again,

they have these titles dating back from before the Mexican Republic.

They also have newer titles from the post revolutionary era, which

is, you know, mid 20th century from the Mexican federal government

recognizing their lands as communal.

So the fact that they're, in a sense, allowing the division and

sale of these lands is, it's also really on the Mexican government.

I mean, I wish I could say the Canadian government should do, I mean, yes,

they should do something, but we've seen how the mining companies get

away with anything they do anywhere.

Like there is.

almost no way to hold a mining company accountable.

Of course they should be.

Um, the Canadian government should be regulating and should be ensuring

that Canadian companies are not participating in land theft.

But that seems like a far cry.

Erin: So something I thought about as I read your article about this

development project is the sort of like long view, so what the long

term impacts of this would be.

I was just thinking like these initial developments could shape what tourism

grows into in the area, it could change the way people live their

lives, local people, and instead of tourism development being in the

hands of local people whose lives will ultimately be impacted the most, it's

already in the hands of foreigners.

So what do you think this means for the long term future of that region?

Dawn Marie Paley: Yeah, I mean, one thing is like thinking towards the future is

for some reason Canadians also think it's a good idea Not only to steal Indigenous

communal land, but also to build like right in front of the beach So there's

a good chance that it'll be underwater In the long term, seeing how things are

going now, not to be overly pessimistic or whatever, but it doesn't necessarily

seem like the smartest place to be building big concrete three car garage,

uh, condos at this point, like literally like a few meters from the shoreline.

I think what Tulco gives us an idea, what Tulco having, you know, had the

big expropriation, having had, you know, an international airport built.

Um, having built really from the ground up like a, a mega city, well, it's, I

wouldn't, maybe not a mega city, but sort of a, a mega large scale tourism

development, Cancun is another one.

What we see are people, local folks who can no longer access their

traditional life ways, they can no longer access their territories, um,

and are basically forced into menial labor jobs, which pay next to nothing.

Food insecurity.

It's pretty dystopian, honestly, and we can already see it like it's

not like mega tourism is is new.

It's something that folks are aware of and they're saying

that is not the future we want.

I've done some work on the Yucatan Peninsula, which is, you know, the

peninsula where where Cancun is.

And folks all over the place are saying to me, Cancun is a, is a bad model.

We don't want to be scrubbing toilets.

We want to be living in our own land for the majority.

And again, obviously some, uh, intermediaries and especially folks

that already have access to capital will do very well off of increased

development, increased tourism, increased building, et cetera.

But it's, it's for the majority.

It's, it's, it's not an attractive prospect.

I don't think.

Yeah, I

Erin: mean, even just like, this is obviously just personal experience,

but going to places myself like that, like I was recently in Puerto Vallarta,

I have like gotten the sense from local people that they don't like it.

They don't like what their city has become.

I experienced the same thing in Belize.

I was there last year and we went to this one place that had just been

like overtaken by Canadians buying property and it just, it didn't even

feel like you were in Belize anymore.

Yeah, I

Dawn Marie Paley: think there's a lot of places in Mexico like that

and I think, you know, there's just something that happens when the

economy is, is based mostly on tourism.

People end up experiencing Like a lot of racism from foreigners on their own

land and that kind of stuff, right?

Like where it just is just like, what kind of, again, it's so

dystopian and yet is sold as.

It's a place to go relax and like never lift a finger and someone will

always be talking up your beverage like at all times or whatever.

And I mean, there's, there's, there's always a ton of ways to approach this.

And there are folks who set up small businesses, I don't know, doing surf

school or some kind of tour and folks who are able to kind of make a go

and, and have an interesting career and, and, you know, do okay locally

when there's this amount of tourism.

Um, but.

I think generally just increases the cost of living like wherever there's

dollars circulating in the economy, the cost of living is a lot more expensive.

It just makes day to day life a lot more difficult for, for folks.

And you know, the.

The history is just so, I was in Cabo San Lucas a few years ago and in one of the

restaurants they had a picture of what Cabo San Lucas looked like, it was like

in the 70s, it was like a shack, it was a fishing shack, and now if you look at

it, it's just like so many hotels, so much wealth concentrated in this little

tiny area, and then just like a ton of informal housing, a ton of Like not up to

scale housing, like housing where people get flooded out every year when it rains,

where folks are just dealing with like, they're really exposed to the climate.

Really long commutes, really expensive commutes to get to the,

to get to the tourist centers.

And it's just such a radical, like, if you go now, you'd assume it had

been like that for so long, right?

It just seems so permanent.

But in fact, these developments, Cancun is almost the same kind

of, just a much bigger scale.

These were, these were little tiny, tiny Indigenous villages

50, 60, 70 years ago, right?

Erin: Yeah, it's something, you know, we've talked about on this

show before, like tourism gets so concentrated and this is how we end

up with like examples of it over tourism, literally all over the world.

And it's so frustrating because it would be such a better model to spread it out

and so then you don't have these like thick concentrations of people just

completely changing the face of a place and then those tourism dollars that people

claim are so helpful get spread out as well if there's more focus on spreading

that tourism across a region instead of just like concentrated in one spot.

So something we've been talking about but haven't addressed

is how this is all Canadians.

doing this?

I know that was the focus on your article and it makes sense given you're

from Canada yourself, but would you say this is like a Canadian problem

or are Americans doing this as well?

Is it just a North American thing?

Dawn Marie Paley: It's, it's Canadians and folks from the U.

S.

primarily.

Um, and that's just geography, right?

It's just way closer for, for us to, to come down South than it is for Europeans.

I mean, there's like a neighborhood in San Jose del Cabo called Gringo Hill.

Like, of course it's a beautiful neighborhood that overlooks.

The turquoise water.

Of course it is.

And you can meet pockets of, of gringos that have been living in

Mexico for like 10, 20, 30 plus years who don't speak Spanish, who have

made no effort to integrate, and yet are still welcomed to an extent.

And again, this is just, has a lot to do with, with white supremacy

and, and the way that the way that dollars talk, right, and the way

that the passport privilege works.

It's

Erin: interesting you bring up like that it's just geography because I was recently

traveling in Morocco and one of I had been there before but almost 10 years prior.

So this was my second time.

And one of the things I noticed about this time was suddenly all

the hotels or not all but a lot of the hotels were owned by Europeans.

And I usually try to like book places that are low owned by people

local to like a city or a country.

And I was finding it really hard because so much has been bought up by Europeans.

And I guess it's that same thing where it's like, okay, it's

like South and it's cheaper.

So I'm going to go down there and take their property.

Yeah.

Dawn Marie Paley: And they can take like a 1 Ryanair flight or something, right?

Erin: Yeah, so this is obviously a complex issue and I, I doubt that

there is a concrete answer to it, but what would you like to see changing?

Um, we've talked a bit about government, so we can delve into that a bit more,

but if there's anyone else at fault for this gentrification in Mexico, and

maybe like, if you think tourism is playing a role in this as well, what

can be done to make things better?

Dawn Marie Paley: Yeah, I mean, it's always, it's always a great question.

I think the problem is global.

I think the problem of gentrification is not just a Mexican problem.

And I think the problem is capitalism, no more, no less.

So, you know, there's obviously things that can be done in the meantime, as

we struggle together to end capitalism, like regulating housing, protecting

renters, ensuring, you know, that rent increases have to be very minimum amount

or that there be non market housing.

I think a lot of the same things that we talk about in Canada.

Could be applied in Mexico.

There's all kinds of things that I think we're seeing, especially European cities

do to ensure that there's enough housing stock for people to live in those cities.

I think Canada is failing to protect low income Canadians and working class

Canadians and, and, and non Canadians, but residents of Canada, it's maybe

it's not a, maybe it's not a problem everywhere, but it's like every.

country, every region has these sort of hotspots that are dealing with

this, with the very same issues, right?

Because a lot

Erin: of this is so, um, reminiscent of what's happening in Toronto.

And like, I was in Dublin earlier this year and had this exact same conversation

with people there about how like rent was so high that if you earn minimum wage,

you can't afford to live in the city.

Dawn Marie Paley: I mean, I was in San Francisco recently and people were saying

that you are considered low income.

Even if you're making over 100, 000, like I think the cutoff is over

100, 000 for a family for a year.

I mean, most of my friends in Vancouver are living paycheck to paycheck,

no matter what they're working at.

So I do think like it's a global problem.

The issue is capitalism.

The issue is the concentration of wealth.

I mean, Mexico has extremely wealthy billionaires and then, you know,

a ma a majority of the population struggling with, with food security,

with housing security, with being able to access healthcare, with

being able to access education.

So, you know, all of these struggles, I think, are, are really important.

And again, land defense and Indigenous communities that are so active all over

Mexico and throughout the Americas, in fact, and, and beyond, and land

defense really has to do with just saying no to the system and finding,

finding ways to continue to practice the traditions immemorial, right?

Which in the face of this behemoth.

Of capitalism that we're living in is, is, you know, among the most inspiring

examples, you know, the communities in Oaxaca that are dealing with

these Canadians buying their land or they're, they're, they're getting super

organized, you know, for a long time, they told me, like, they kind of, they

weren't that active, they weren't, their assembly wasn't always meeting

and, and since they've got wind of these projects, or since these projects

have come in, they've really okay.

Um, stepped up their organizing, started doing all the work they can

legally to protect themselves and so on.

Well,

Erin: so what about people who are interested in traveling to Mexico?

What is something that you think anyone visiting should know or should take

the time to learn about before they plan a trip to anywhere in Mexico?

Dawn Marie Paley: Well, on a very practical level, definitely check

out what's happening with security.

Mexico is...

It really varies and there's parts of the country that

are, that are really not safe.

So that's just like on a super practical level, you know, I think

what you said about Staying in hotels that are owned by local folks.

I think that's that's like a good start I think there's a lot of places in Mexico

that are absolutely not touristy, but where folks are local people are trying to

set up like ecotourism or different kinds of cabins cabanas like in the mountains

or in different places even some of the beach areas and Um, I was in, uh, Nayarit

State recently and stayed in a, like, very chill, uh, locally owned cabanas.

In Oaxaca as well, there's, there's places where, where locals and

Indigenous folks are running the tourism.

They, you know, try to figure out how you can support and stay

at those types of businesses or those types of accommodations.

And then I think for folks who are planning to stay longer,

because that's really what changed, right, was with the pandemic.

People aren't coming for a week or two weeks anymore.

They're coming for a year or two years, or I'm staying forever

because they can remote work.

I think that has really been a big part of, of what's happening with, with

just like how the rents are becoming so much more expensive, especially in

these neighborhoods of Mexico City.

But it is all of Mexico City that is becoming more expensive, and for example,

places like Oaxaca or San Miguel.

So, if you're planning to stay longer, I think it does get trickier,

and I think thinking through why you want to be in Mexico and what

it is that you want to do here.

Making the choice to stay in Mexico for a longer time means like, okay,

I'm going to do a year of language school through a local university.

I'm going to, like...

I'm participating in like a painting project.

I don't know, you know, I'm learning to fish.

I mean, at least something that means that folks come down are actually

in contact and thereby accountable to the people that live around them.

I think there are ways to live in Mexico.

I, I hope that I, I, I am doing it myself that, that involve like being part of

community and being aware of the issues and, you know, speaking out about.

Things that aren't good, like Canadians buying communal land.

Again, that's something to avoid.

Don't buy communal land.

It should be something that's like very well thought out and that, and

that involves actually interacting with the people that live here.

I mean, it just sounds so obvious.

It should be so obvious.

But if your plan is like, I'm going to go live in Mexico City because my three

friends from Toronto live there and it sounds really cool, maybe rethink

that plan because you might end up not feeling that great about your impact

once you start learning about what it is.

And

Erin: on that note, is there anywhere that you would recommend

people go in Mexico right now?

That's not these super popular tourist centers.

Dawn Marie Paley: That's a good question.

One of the things I love about living in Mexico is bus travel.

Mexico has an incredible bus system, they're so comfortable,

they're fairly safe, like I would say you want to do this, you know,

plan your travels during the day.

But I think traveling over land can be very interesting and very enriching,

but I, yeah, I can't really give travel advice because there's so

many issues with security as well once you're traveling over land.

But, yeah, Mexico has a lot of really beautiful...

Cities and towns and and places.

I think maybe before you come to Mexico, maybe just get a little bit

more educated about what kind of places there are, what kind of cities

there are, um, and then just make sure you're checking the travel advisories

as well before you before you travel.

I mean, sometimes the travel advisories are obviously a little overblown.

But sometimes, you know, there's parts of Mexico where if someone

said to me casually, I mean, people do all the time I'm thinking of

like driving down to Mexico City.

It's like, well, don't go that way.

And don't go that way.

Right?

Because it's just not it's not safe.

But yeah, I mean, Baja California is is is beautiful.

The whole country is, is, is really beautiful.

I always think about Mexico as being, it's a, it's a bit of a universe.

Yeah, there's, there's a lot to see.

I wouldn't say like, don't come to Mexico, but it's something that, that

should be just like anywhere, right?

It's, it's someone's land.

Like you're going to someone's community.

You're going to someone's neighborhood.

So like figure out where you're going and, and try to make sure you're,

you're staying in a place that's like locally owned and well located.

And then they'll be able to connect you with local restaurants and

actually be able to experience.

A little bit more on that superficial level of, and if you're going

to stay for longer, try to plug

Erin: in.

Great advice.

And we say all the time, like, just remember that you are a

guest and the best way to be a guest is to be an informed guest.

Yeah.

Well, Dawn, thank you so much.

This has been so great.

I've learned a lot.

I've loved sort of bouncing these ideas off of you.

You're so knowledgeable, so I really appreciate you taking the time to join us.

And before we let you go, I was hoping I could ask you to share where

people can find you and find your work, um, and maybe follow you if

you have any of the social channels.

Sure,

Dawn Marie Paley: yeah.

I'm working on a new project right now, it's called Ojalá.

Ojalá means hope, or hopefully in Spanish, and it's actually a bilingual website.

So it's...

O j a l a, Ojala mx.

Um, so we're doing news from around Latin America and reflections,

especially around feminist movement and different kinds of organizing happening.

And we're, we're publishing in English and Spanish.

Um, and then I'm mostly just on Twitter, so it's just at dawn underscore.

If folks are interested in the, um, the story we were talking about that's at the

breach, which is, uh, breach media.ca,

Erin: and we have linked it all in the show notes.

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Curious Tourism, the Responsible Travel Podcast, is written and hosted by me,

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