Welcome to Alumni Live: The Podcast.

These are conversations with grand valley state university film and video

graduates about the industry, the film, video, major and alumni profiles.

Today we're talking all about unions.

We got some great guests today.

We got Jim Taylor in from West Michigan.

Hi, everybody.

We got Jaz Edwards from Chicago.

Hi, how's it going?

Jaz is a prop assistant, very excited about that.

And we got Jamie Bartkowicz from LA.

Hello.

All right, so, let's talk about unions.

Let's go around and talk about, which unions you're all in as

a great starting point here.

Jamie, what is your union situation?

So I'm actually not in a union, but I do work with unions on a daily

basis with my job and have had a lot of experience working with the

different unions in Los Angeles.

I also teach on the side and a big subject that all my students also have,

similar to this podcast subject, is how to join unions because they can

be very complicated and everything.

Yeah, we're going to definitely need to dig into all that.

Jaz, what can you tell us about your experience with unions?

I'm a member of IATSE's Local Branch 476 out of Chicago and

I joined just under a year ago.

It'll be a year in March.

I'm still very new to the whole union world and still kind of learning how

things go about it, but so far it's great.

Great.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Jim, what can you tell us about your experience in unions over the years?

I guess you could call me a casual list member for IATSE 26 here in Grand

Rapids and I've been doing that for gosh, it always seems like 2 or 3 years,

but it's coming up on 10 years now.

So, finally got the seniority to where we're getting some interesting calls now.

Whereas at the beginning, those of you that don't know, you're generally

doing the pushing boxes kind of work, at least in West Michigan.

Sure.

And I, as your host Randy Strobl, I am in the IBEW in Detroit doing broadcast

work for Detroit Public Television.

Let's start with, what is a union?

What is the difference between, not a union job, a union job what does

it mean to be a part of a union?

I would say that the easiest explanation of it is that it's all started when

entertainment workers wanted to get together and make sure that their working

conditions were safe, that their pays were acceptable, that everyone was on the

same page with everything and that they were being treated right in their jobs.

Especially we know that a lot of jobs in entertainment can be dangerous.

They can be long hours, all these different things.

So, joining the union and when different jobs and locals are unionized

basically just means that these are our working conditions and our terms.

That this group of trades people want to agree on and that

productions have to comply with.

You'll hear the terms brothers and sisters a lot.

When talking about unions, and that's kind of like the camaraderie

of it is that we are brothers and sisters in a union working together.

We're all on the same page.

We're all here to support each other and fight for working rights.

Absolutely.

And Jim, you said you're more of a casual member.

What do you see from that perspective?

What does the union mean to you in Grand Rapids?

Well, it's organized.

Any of major venues and movie sets and things like that in West

Michigan are generally organized.

It's the smaller venues, live music venues and things like that that are non union.

And what I find is that, the union really guarantees a

consistent wage base to work from.

The folks that are on what we call the 100 list, which would be the folks that are

full time, union is their only gig, they can make a somewhat middle class living.

The good and the bad, as far as I can see it, the hard part is just

that the work is not always there.

In a Midwest town like Grand Rapids, you'll have several weeks where everyone's

working these crazy 90 hour weeks and then, a week or two where there's

just nothing and it seems like the schedule ends up coming out that way.

Everyone wants to do their events on the same date.

Sure.

Now Jaz, you just graduated from Grand Valley pretty recently.

You're fresh out into the working world.

How did you decide to join up in Chicago and what did your whole

transition into union life look like?

It all kind of happened just by coincidence.

It was not something I planned.

It was just, the opportunities were presented and I was like, well, I have

no reason to not take them, so I did.

But I moved out to Chicago and I started as a Health and Safety

PA, which they're not part of any union, at least here in Chicago.

I think in LA, the PAs have a union there, but in Chicago, PAs don't have a union.

So, with that, you're typically making about minimum wage and if you're

on, a full time big budget show or movie, they're kind of nice where

they guarantee you 12 hours of pay.

So, it's even if you don't work the full 12 hours, they

still give you the 12 hours.

But you don't get the benefit of unions, such as, you don't get the

health insurance that comes with that.

You don't get, like, the job security that comes with it.

Because with union projects, they say you have to hire union

people first before you can.

Hire out.

But when I got into the union, I was working on a show called Force, on

their first season, and I just was like, well, I don't wanna be a PA forever,

so let's see what else I can do.

I made friends with the people in the props department, told them I

was interested and they ended up having a spot open up and they're

like, "We don't know anyone who's free to work that's in the union.

So we'll put you on the out of work list so that you can

come work a union position."

And then after about 30 days of working my prop master, he spoke to

the people who were in charge of, the board of the union and was like, hey,

we should get her voted and sworn in.

That's really great that they took you in like that.

So in that answer, I'm hearing that there's some things you have

to go through to join the union.

In your experience, what are the ways to join?

Jim, how did you get into IATSE?

Well like I said, I'm on their casual list.

So I'm not technically a card holder and there is two levels

as far as the unions goes.

There is the folks that are card holders.

They're paying the union dues every year.

They are part of the structure.

They get to be a voting member.

And then there's a whole ton of people generally, and this differs

in some cities, you may go 30 days and they'll invite you to join.

Some cities like New York, you might wait years before

you get an invitation to join.

In Grand Rapids, the most likely method to enter is asking the union

steward, "Hey, do you want me?"

There's a certain level of having to prove that you can make a full wage

in the union because the dues are, I don't want to say somewhat expensive.

I think around here, they're about 500 dollars a year, and it

can come out to your paycheck.

But, you would just, go to the union and say, "Hey, I'd like to

become a member" and they'll take you through the route to doing that.

Generally, it's going to a meeting and if you're well known enough, they would

give you an up and down vote as to whether or not they want you in the union.

There's very few people that don't get the vote positively, but it does happen.

We have a couple of people that are still on our casual list that have asked to

be members and they just don't want them as a voting member for whatever reason.

But for the most part in Grand Rapids, it might be a little easier than.

Say going to New York, you really have to know a lot of

folks there to get into IATSE 1.

My own experience in Detroit is when I started working for Detroit Public

Television when they hired me on the first question they asked is, " Do you want to

join and be a member of the IBEW or not?"

So Jamie, I understand California is a little bit different.

Could you talk to us about what it's like working in California where

unions are maybe a little bit stronger?

So first thing to know about unions in general, when we're

talking about this is that there's different divisions across the United

States and also across the world.

So each division might consist of multiple states and they're going to have their own

set of rules and their own jurisdiction.

So Los Angeles in our district, for IATSE, if you're a union member,

you can't work on non-union shows.

That is the agreement you can only work in union jobs within

your jurisdiction of your trade.

Not saying that people don't sneakily do it.

I have heard of people, I wouldn't advertise that.

But you're not allowed to work on non-union.

And then similarly to what Jaz was saying about getting into the union.

If you're a non-union, you can't work on a union show unless you have a permit.

And depending on your union, depending on the show, there's

multiple ways about getting that.

In general, to get a permit for the show, they have to go through everyone on the

roster for that position in the union.

And absolutely everyone has to turn it down before they'll move on to a

non-union person, which is a long list.

I would say, during the pandemic, in the thick of it, when productions

were starting back up, there was a lot of productions picking up

and there was a lot of work in Los Angeles and not enough people.

So I think a lot of people got their in on the union in certain unions, because

they were able to call the office and get on the list and then get a permit.

So a lot of people lucked out that way.

But in general, you kind of just have to know a production that's

looking for a position, kind of how Jaz was saying that they didn't

have anyone and she was right there.

So that's how she got that opportunity to come in.

That's the only way you can get on a union production is if you have a permit.

It's a weird divide and a big question I always get from my students when I teach

is, "Well, how are you supposed to get into the union if you're not allowed to

work on a union show, but they say you need 30 union days to be in the union?"

And that is the trick of unions.

And just like anything, it is a network.

Some of the perks, like you mentioned, Jamie, are that, you

are on a list to get jobs, right?

So it sounds like that's, Jim, how you're getting jobs.

Let's talk a little bit about that.

So the union of course is protective, but let's talk about

it also as away to get other jobs.

Jaz, how does the union function as a network for you?

People told me in college, "Oh, it's all about who you know," and then

I was like, well, maybe it's not.

And then I got out here and I was like, oh, it really is about who you know.

That's how I was able to get into the union working in props.

So last season, I worked on The Bear and I didn't know the prop

master through that, like, at all.

But I was recommended to the prop master because she had worked with another

prop master that I had worked with.

And he's like, "Hey, you should reach out to this person.

She's looking for on-set people."

And I was like, "Yeah, I don't have any jobs lined up.

So sure.

Why not?"

A lot of it is through word of mouth because people who often branch out and

become their own prop masters themselves are always connecting with the people

they worked with before and looking for help through people that they know.

But you do have that out of work list, which people typically go to that, but

not as often as they do looking through people they know, but it's still great

to have your name on there because then they'll look through it if they need it.

They'll be like, "Oh, this person is available to work."

When I joined up in the IBEW about a year ago I was all of

a sudden, on the list serve.

So I started getting text messages for things from people I didn't know.

All of a sudden I was getting a text message to work at an ABC game for the

University of Michigan football games.

Jim, in your experience, what does that look like for you?

Is it, who you know?

Is it getting text messages?

How are you networking with the union?

Well, I think that the union, in just probably the last five

or six years, has really started to try and take on technology.

There's an app now that's called Call Steward that shoots us all of our offers.

And I think the reason why Grand Rapids might be a little different

than some of the bigger cities is that.

It's a lot more generalized here.

You'll get riggers that work in an arena that go out and also work on

movies, if they come through town.

I'm an audio technician.

I've been in there for 35 years.

And probably the reason why I haven't been a union cardholder is just that most

of my own events and gigs have been self initiated or through my own companies,

but about eight years ago, I met up with a woman who I used to work with and she

said, "Why aren't you on the union list?

You would have a lot of seniority right now.

Even if you're not a cardholder, they still respond to seniority on the list."

And so I went in and put my name in and I worked a couple

of concerts at the local arena.

And it was fun, but I wasn't using it for much income where nowadays, it does

seem like I'm getting a lot more calls.

I've qualified.

They have a list of skills and you have to qualify either through testing or through

self knowledge and things like that.

Suddenly I can do slightly better rate jobs.

And so I always tell students, no matter what you do, go and get on their casual

list, even if you're not a card holder.

Get some seniority going because in 2 or 3 years, you're going to get regular

calls where you may not get calls today.

And the other word of advice that I generally have for students is that

go and work everything because West Michigan is so small compared to LA,

or Chicago, or New York, that, you're going to meet everyone that is in the

field that you're trying to get into.

And mostly Grand Valley students want to get into the video side of things.

If you start working shows for the union, you're going to be talking

to everyone that owns or is a production manager for video shoots

that are going on in West Michigan.

It just makes sense, to get out there and get your name out there

and start interacting with people.

Even if you're only the junior person who doesn't know anything that's pushing

a box into the room that somebody else is then using the equipment out of.

Yeah.

and it'll make sure that you're getting a decent wage for pushing that box.

This is for students.

So let's all think back to when we were students.

Jaz, earlier, you mentioned that you had started, before you were in the

union, doing some minimum wage work.

I mean, I remember starting in and doing even less than minimum wage

work, even no wage work, right?

It seems like, when you're a student or a recent graduate, you're really

vulnerable to getting taken advantage of by producers who don't have funding

or people who realize that students are just eager and excited to work.

Sometimes, producers will think of that as payment rather than real money.

We're taking a short break to tell you about the Dirk Koning

Memorial Film and Video scholarship.

Here's Gretchen Vinnedge remembering Dirk Koning.

The Koning Scholarship enables students to get that kind of an education, to be

a good filmmaker, to be able to express their voice and to continue Dirk's dream.

For more information, and to donate to the scholarship, visit

the link in the description.

Now, back to the show.

Jamie, Jaz, Jim, can you tell us some stories about what it

was like before joining unions?

What it's like out there?

And some of the protections that you might see as a young student who's vulnerable?

I think when you're young, and it's not even just in the film and television

industry, that corporations and businesses will try to take advantage of students

who are eager to get experience because, when you want to go out and get a job that

actually pays you well, they say, "Oh, you need so many years of experience", but

it's like, well, I just graduated college.

I can't do much.

And I think that if you're going to hire even interns, experience

is great, but still, you have to pay people for their time.

Experience isn't going to pay the bills.

And working in production out in Chicago, I've always been in a position where I've

been working on big budget, television shows So I've never had to worry about

getting paid less than minimum wage.

I've always gotten paid at least the minimum wage, which is,

especially if you're a big budget show, what you should be doing.

There's cases where you're helping out your friends.

I have a friend.

She's working on her first short film and they're doing a fundraiser for it and they

didn't raise enough money to pay the cast and crew, and she was like, "Would you

still be willing to do it without pay?"

And it's like, yeah, you're my friend.

I'm going to help you out and if I ever need help, I would hope that you

would help me out with a production.

So it's things like that, where if everyone's trying to make art

with their friends and do their thing and you may not get paid, but

you're still helping your friends out, that's totally understandable.

But I think if you're working for producers who have the money to

pay their people, they should be paying their people for their time.

Jamie, the protections against students getting taken advantage

of, what do you say about that?

Yeah, I was definitely taking advantage of as a student.

So I look back on that and I'm always telling my students to know your worth.

And when you're first starting out, it's okay to work on certain things for free.

Like Jaz was saying, if it's student films or small independent films, I

definitely did that, but also, I wish I had set more boundaries with that

because I've worked on a few when I was in college or fresh out of college

that was like local independent films.

So they weren't student films but they had no budget and so I wasn't paid.

The things I was asked to do and the amount of work I was doing, I look

back and I was like, oh, I really should have been like, " No," but

because I was a student, they knew that I was just going to be like,

"Yeah, I'm here for the experience."

I have to build my resume.

I'm always saying , yes, if it's a small project or it's something that

you're really passionate about, or it has really good opportunities for

you to learn and connect, like one of them that I did work on, I got

to work close with the art director.

I was just hired on as a PA and I was always interested

in working in Art Department.

So, when I got to work with the Art Director, I felt like I learned

so much and they were allowing me to help them build things.

They were showing me their process and that was really invaluable to me that,

yeah, I walked away from that project without any money, but I learned a lot.

But I was also in a position where I was working another job.

Everyone has a different situation financially and

what they're willing to do.

I would just be cautious.

And I totally, totally agree with it, as Jaz says, if it is a big

budget production, you should be getting at least minimum wage.

No one should be shortchanging you.

And I think it's really important for students to do their

research on what rates are in their area for certain things.

Knowing what your rate is is very important.

That's a question that you're going to be asked when someone hires you.

A lot of times they'll ask you "What's your day rate?"

And I remember not knowing what my day rate is and I probably

low balled myself a lot.

And so just doing research on line and seeing what, typically,

a Production Assistant gets paid in West Michigan or Chicago.

Production Assistants aren't union, so different productions can

really pay you whatever they want.

And depending on the type of project, it will pay differently.

So just knowing based on your experience, but also always aiming higher because

they can always come down lower.

It's a tricky one.

I guess the short answer of all this is that when you're starting out,

you might be doing free or low pay work, but don't get stuck in that.

It's okay to do a few to make some connections, if it's good opportunities,

but don't think that it's okay to do that.

And even now, years later in my career, I had a friend 2 years ago,

who's putting on a Halloween show and they were like, "This is my budget.

It's not your rate, obviously to build a set.

Would you still be interested?"

And I was like, yeah, this is a passion project.

This is my friend starting a new company and they want to start a show.

And I'm really supportive of that.

And if this was a stranger, I would say absolutely not.

But I want to support each other, you know, artists supporting

artists in this industry.

You just have to weigh your options and also, big advice for students if they're

like, "I really don't know if I should take certain jobs," is try and reach

out to alumni or people in the industry.

Or if you have a mentor and be like, "Is this a good opportunity?"

I have students coming to me all the time being like, "This is an opportunity.

This is the pay.

Should I do it?"

And sometimes I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's fine."

Or " Absolutely not, tell them to go away."

Jim, this question of knowing your worth and wages and making sure that

you're paid for the work you do.

What is the framework, the protections, that a union affords to

know that you are going to be paid?

Does a union help you at all know what your worth is?

Well, I'll come around to that in a circular way.

As a professor and a researcher, one of the things that I looked at

was creatives and their pay rates.

And one of the most secret, obtuse things about being a student is, when you get out

in this field, very similar to things like graphic design and sometimes folks that

are in the seamstress field and things like that, you're working by yourself.

You are a gig economy worker.

You don't know, until you've got some experience under your

wings, what the right rate is.

I've got about 35 years in as an audio engineer.

And I, honestly, I can make a lot more outside of the union than I can as a

union person, but that's because I've developed reputation and people call

me for things around West Michigan.

What the union does is it basically sets out the minimum viable product.

For being a person that's in this industry and then you can go from there.

If you want to work a non-union job, depending on your union

rules and your individual union, in some cases that's possible.

You should be making a bunch more money if you're not getting the benefits

and the wages and the things that the unions guarantee, whereas the

union, they're going to guarantee that you've got a baseline, livable wage.

It's much more than minimum wage, but at the same time, in Grand Rapids, it's

probably not what it should be compared to work for the folks in Chicago.

And we make a lot more on things like Lollapalooza gigs than we do

here at the arena in Grand Rapids.

But the union at least can give you a sense of what the right rate is.

I have beginner workers that work for my company, and I always tell

them, "You're at least two or three bucks above what the union pays,"

because that's what I feel is right.

There's not a lot of companies that are that way.

They would much rather pay somebody 10 or 12 bucks an hour than go up to that

20-25 dollar an hour rate, which should be expected at the minimum for anything

that's college education related.

And if you're accepting something like 17 or 18 dollars an hour,

that's McDonald's wages now.

So if you've gone through a four year degree, and you're making that,

unless you are, like Jamie said, working on a passion project, which

is a whole different situation, you should be having some kind of minimum.

It should be 20 bucks or above because you're working as a

knowledgeable, technical worker.

Absolutely.

Sounds like our best advice that we're thinking is for students to think

about what their hourly rate is and to compare that across other industries.

The benefit of a union is what's called collective bargaining, right?

Where, lots of people together can say, "We're either going to take

this deal or not take this deal."

And so in that contract and that collective bargain, is guaranteed pay

increase for however many years you work.

That's also a great way to understand your worth, to know what's in those

contracts that unions can put together.

Outside of just the pay, let's talk a little bit about what it's like

working in a union environment.

Jamie, you had mentioned knowing some boundaries.

What are some boundaries in place?

Some guarantees where if you're on a union set or environment, you will

start to realize or be protected around.

The biggest one would be your hours that you're working.

Many people might have remembered the big IATSE strike that was impending last year.

And a lot of that had to do with what we call "Fraturdays," which are Fridays that

are late shoots that go into Saturday.

And so you're not getting your full turnaround before the Monday workday.

That was a big issue productions would kind of cheat that because

there are certain rules about what your turnaround time is.

What is a turnaround time?

Oh, yes, so turnaround time is when you end 1 workday and when the next

workday is allowed to start for you.

And that also changes based on if you're a local hire or non-local hire.

And that's a whole nother thing.

And what your contract says about, does your day end when you leave set?

Or when you get home from set if there's driving time and stuff?

So there's a lot of different things based on where you're at, what your

show is, but turnaround time in general is, you are guaranteed a certain

amount of hours based on your union

of when you have rest period between your work days and then also on weekends that

you get so many hours on the weekend to fully recharge before the next work week.

Fraturdays were an issue in that because they were Fridays, but they were

going to Saturday early mornings, so now your Saturday's cut off, but then

they'd want you there back on Monday.

So that was on the list of things that impending IATSE strike that

they were trying to argue for.

Another thing was their wages for the below the line, the lower tiered people

in positions such as the coordinators and stuff saying they deserve a higher rate.

Their job is very important.

Let's stop treating them like they are minimum wage workers.

They should be moving up on the pay scale, just like everyone else.

Boundaries that the union does protect you from do need to be reevaluated

from years to years, which is why that happened last year is that they

were reevaluating their contract.

I think you're very protected with your hours.

That's the biggest one I always see between non-union and union jobs is that

you're only allowed so many hours on set.

You have your guaranteed turnaround where, when you work in non-union, there's

really nothing protecting you from that.

You can work super long 14 hour days and then asked to be back, hours

later, which is very dangerous, especially if you're driving home.

That's like a whole thing.

When I talk to people in unions, that's always the biggest thing is your hours

that you're on set and your turnaround time, because it is a very big deal

when you're in big productions too, especially if you're not on locations

and everything is that when you're working 12 hour days in entertainment,

the last thing you want to do is have to be back at work six hours from now,

On one of my first shoots in the union, I'd been working non-union

and also working my own company for about 15 years before joining.

And so I remember it was one of our first big shoots.

I was on the set, I was excited to show what I can do and all that,

I was working, working, working.

And all of a sudden, a producer came up to me and said, "Hey,

you need to go take a lunch."

And I was like, "Oh, I'll work.

And they were like, no, no, you gotta go take a

You got to take that lunch.

"Like I will get in trouble if you don't take a lunch."

And I was like, "Really?

I get just 45 minutes off?"

Like I had never experienced that before.

Jaz, was there anything that surprised you when you joined up?

Anything that you, were like, "This is a great benefit here."

Yeah, in terms of the lunch thing, if union productions don't

break you after 6 hours from call time, they have to pay a penalty.

I believe it's every 15 to 30 minutes that they don't break you.

And when you're a PA working on the production, you don't get the extra

money that comes from penalty with that.

You're still not breaking the same time as everybody else, but you don't

get the extra little benefit of cash.

You may think, "Oh, once or twice a week, it's not that much."

But if it happens every day for a 5 to 6 day work week, which I've

been on, it actually adds up and it shows up in your paycheck.

So that's definitely a benefit of it.

But another thing with the strike that was possibly going to happen

last year, producers want to take away that sort of penalty.

So everyone would take their own half hour lunch, which would just

make things way more chaotic, especially for camera operators.

They have to be on their feet all the time, because it's not like they can

just take a rest whenever they want.

Someone has to be operating the camera.

Having that sort of penalty, it's like, "No, you have to

give us a half hour break.

You cannot work us for a full 12 hours without a break."

That's so important to have.

12 hours to a half hour break still isn't quite enough in my opinion.

Jim can you talk to us about some things that you felt protected

around on set, whether safety or breaks or, what do you see out there?

Well, honestly, that's been the role that I've taken on in the last year or two.

Now that I've got seniority, I end up taking jobs that are

what they call Head Audio.

And so I'm in charge of everybody that's on the deck of a stage, whether it's

a Broadway musical coming into Grand Rapids, or sometimes, I work at Meijer

Gardens, so it's an outdoor concert.

And that puts me in my own mind as the head of safety in that area.

I have seen in some unions the heads will kind of just sit in their chairs

and not do a lot, but I tend to be right in the mix of things I'm getting old.

So I call everybody kids, now, and they say, "Come on, kids, you gotta

get some extra people on that."

Safety really has to be the forefront because all of these productions,

whether it's live stage productions, or movies, or musicals, or anything that's

involved with mostly union production, there's going to be dangers there.

We're running temporary equipment everywhere.

There's cables on the ground, there's heavy duty electricity,

there's really heavy stuff up above our heads all the time.

And so if you're not watching the safety, you're going to run into issues.

And what I find is that the union is far better about making sure everybody walks

off the set without injury at the end of the day, than an independent will be.

Because, if you go back towards the passion projects and independent films,

the producers on those, their brains are wrapped around so much more because

they're trying to do more with less, that they're not going to pay attention

if there's a cable that's got 480 volts, and somebody is going to put it right

in the middle of a puddle or something.

They don't have the bandwidth to do that.

And so, I find that non-union, especially when we're talking about

video production, that tends to be a much less safety-oriented spot to begin.

You have to really push a lot harder to make sure safety is okay.

Whereas with the union folks, they understand it.

Especially in things like arenas or Broadway musicals and

things, if you yell, "Stop!"

The whole deck stops.

That's the way it should be because everyone has to look

up and say, "What's going on?

What's unsafe?"

There is like the stereotype that like non-union is less safe than union.

And I think what Jim says is right is why we think that.

But , I would also say that that's not the case across the board.

I don't want people to think that every time they go onto a non-union set,

they're just like doomed for death.

That is not the case.

And I know that's what Jim was getting at.

I think the layer to that of why we also say that union sets have another

step in priority for safety, not because non-union don't care about your life.

It's because when you're in an union, you're represented and you

have representation from your union.

So if anything is unsafe on your set and you're non-union, you can go to

your producer and the people in charge of that project and say, "We feel

unsafe," but there's a huge gray area.

When there is something that's unsafe on a union project, you go to your union rep.

If nothing's getting done, the union rep shuts up, shows up and

the production can get shut down.

They take it more seriously because you have that representation and

that protection from the union because you're part of that.

That's why unions take their safety more seriously because they don't

want to get shut down and they know that they can be shut down.

Absolutely.

I think a lot of that protection comes from also not being able to

just be fired for any reason, right?

If you blow a whistle and you say, "Hey, this needs to stop" on some sets, it

could be totally fine for you to get fired, especially if you're a freelancer.

But if you're in the union, there has to be significant reason to fire you.

Have you seen any of those protections in place where people are protected

from getting thrown out for any reason?

I'll speak to that.

And I will say that that can go both ways.

Sometimes, some of the folks that I've seen working on various shows—I want

to say this very delicately— they can be very high on the seniority list

and still be uninformed on safety.

I think the one thing that the union has is that, technically there's

no bosses until you get to the producer level or the folks that are—

sometimes with us, it's all roadshows.

So we say the road guys are the bosses.

And that can be good and bad, but , you just have to be aware of the safety,

because not everybody is going to be as conscientious as everybody else.

That's the one good thing about the union, is if a guy is being a complete,

unsafe tornado, you can say, "Hey, they need to be not here today."

And so there is a way to remove them, maybe not get them fired,

but get them off that particular show or that particular day.

And then maybe they'll rethink their ideas to be back in a more safe

way or a more constructive way.

Certainly.

Our industry is made up of individuals and individuals have biases.

Do you see any protections for people who might be vulnerable, who are minorities?

Do you see any protections specifically for women or for different races?

I have these like, union pamphlets standing by just to reference.

So for the audio listener, she's holding up five different colored pamphlets.

I know in one of these, it's probably in the constitutions and bylaws.

I'm sure.

. When you apply for a job, they say, they legally cannot discriminate race,

gender, color, sexual orientation.

And the same goes with unions.

You're not allowed to discriminate when hiring people.

Especially living in Chicago and working there, because Chicago is such a diverse

area, when I showed up on my 1st day of production, compared to living in West

Michigan and going to Grand Valley,

I was like, "Oh my gosh."

so many other people look like me."

There's women, and there's women of color, and there's men of color, and

there's people who are non-binary.

And so to see that, and, know that the union is like, "We will not let

productions discriminate against people working for them who are not

just straight, white, cisgender."

And the same with unions, like, we will take anyone who is willing to

work, no matter what they look like.

So I think that's a great thing for them to have.

And thankfully, I've always been in a position where my friends that I see

on set are women and people of color.

Like I said, I've only been doing this for about, a year and a half.

I've been here a short time, so I haven't personally seen discrimination.

I can't say it's not happening, because not everything is going to be on the open.

There's always things that are swept under the rug, but I personally have always felt

safe here as a woman and a woman of color.

Yeah, I would say that I've had bad situations and good situations.

Jaz worded it very well, is that the union has their standards and they

are not going to discriminate and they won't stand for discrimination.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And so sometimes you're going to get some bad eggs of just

people that are really crappy.

But I would say that they don't turn a blind eye to it, at

least in my experience, and to reiterate, I am not in a union.

I work with a lot of unions.

I send out a lot of union contracts, but I am not in the union, but I would

say that it's a situation I think is getting better over the years.

There's been a lot of things like the Me Too movement and everything that's

really, have people be more outspoken, I think, newer generations of people

coming into Hollywood, specifically saying that we're not going to stand for this

and that we do want more diversity and inclusion and everything is helping.

That doesn't mean that it's all rainbows and sunshines.

An interesting topic got brought up at work, actually, that's

on the same topic of this.

When we're talking about diversity in working, there were statistics

that we saw: "How many people of color or women are hired on to

films in certain higher positions?"

Statistics are kind of low and we ask, "Well, why aren't we hiring

more women or people of color in producer roles or director roles?"

And that conversation switched back over to the unions and saying, " How many women

and people of color are in those unions?"

Because if we have to hire union workers, and this is our pool of people,

there's only so much that we can do as a company in a studio for hiring.

And I was really proud of our statistics.

We were on the higher end of those statistics, but, the discussion

was, "We can do better, but why isn't there more diversity in

those unions for us to hire from?"

Not saying that the unions are purposely not hiring those people,

but it all goes back to schooling and back to your younger age of feeling

comfortable as a woman in the film major, because I was one of the very few.

I'm sure Jaz can feel the same way, and seeing the diversity of acceptance

from that lower level, because that's going to carry on through the industry

and bring up those people in the industry, but if there's no one there

from the lower level of wanting to join the industry from the beginning

section, how are we going to have more diversity and inclusion higher up?

Because slowly people will leave the industry, or they won't

continue on that career path.

So then the pool just gets smaller and smaller.

Absolutely.

I think mentorship is something that is pretty important.

Jim, do you see any mentorship happening in and around unions?

It's interesting that you say that because I think that the union in

West Michigan for a long time was less diverse than it could be.

And just in the last few years, I've seen a lot of movement towards

diversity, which is a really good sign.

The current president of the union is a female.

There's 2 different setups in the IATSE world.

One is just a referral center.

And the other one is more of the idea of the traditional union where

you're an apprentice, and then you're a journeyman, and then a master.

And right now we're working towards being a training-based union where

there is some levels of seniority.

But also levels of competence involved.

It's the hardest thing to see when you get a new union member,

who's got a ton of experience, but they're very low on the list.

So they don't get the proper calls that they should get.

And so we're trying to work that to where if someone has the right

experience and can test up, that they don't necessarily have to wait till the

end of the list to get all the calls.

And I think that's been a function of the diversity and the

diversification of this union.

I think we're getting to the point where it's probably about 40 percent women.

We could definitely use some more persons of color in the union.

I think traditionally this production world has been an old

white guys last bastion of that, "Only guys can move heavy stuff,"

kind of feeling that used to exist.

But I think as we realize what diversity does for us, even the union says, "Yes,

we should be much better at that."

And it's really at the core of their principles is that equality

and egalitarian kind of concept where we all can do the job.

And if you can do the job, you should do the job.

That's beautiful.

Hey, I think we're getting pretty close to wrapping up here.

Do y'all have other things you want to say?

Anything we missed about your unions?

I think the big conversation of this whole thing has been, " Should I join a union?

Should I not join a union?"

That's a question I get a lot from students.

I have always been non union.

I've always worked non union jobs, and I think , the reason why is

because of the type of job I was doing either wasn't unionized, so

there wasn't a union for me to join, or that was just how my life took me.

There were opportunities for me to potentially join Local 44, which

is the set decorator union, But, based on my wants, my needs, my

preferences, I've worked freelance, I've worked corporate for studios.

I have chose to do non-union.

That does not mean that I am against unions by any means.

I am a full supporter of the unions.

And I think when students are debating whether they should join a union or not.

It's not a black and white answer.

I think everyone has different preferences.

There are people who go their whole careers not being union.

There are people who join unions right away.

Jim and Jaz are perfect examples of that.

It's not an easy answer.

And I know it's one that really, really eats away at students, especially

when I graduated from Grand Valley.

I didn't know anything about unions.

When I moved out to Los Angeles, all of a sudden, people were talking

about unions and I felt very lost.

And I was like, "Cool.

How do I join one?

Like, do I just put my name on a list and stuff?"

And then I learned, the processes and it seemed very confusing

and I was very overwhelmed.

Just know that it is an overwhelming thing specifically if you're in Los

Angeles or places like New York.

But, the best, thing to do is just go with your career, take the jobs that you want

to take, see where your path leads you.

If it leads to a union job, like Jaz's path.

Great.

And if that's what you want, that's perfectly fine.

If you're taking jobs and you're not interested in joining

the union, that's fine too.

There's no right or wrong.

You're not a better person.

If you're one or the other.

People have different preferences.

And I just think that's very important for students to know, because you can

kind of get caught up in the whole union thing and thinking that you have to

join to mean something in the industry.

And that's not the case.

It's just depends on where your career takes you.

I took a 6 year career shift.

I'm back in film now, but I was working for theme park design.

So I was working for Universal Studios Hollywood where I was

designing the theme park attractions.

That's not unionized.

So there was no option to be union.

And then coming out of it, I could have decided, "You know what, I want to

start going back to union and try and get on Local 44 or something like that.

So I just think it's important to not stress over it and just kind

of know that these are 2 options.

They have their pros and cons.

Everyone has a preference.

Jazz, do you have anything to say about wrapping up here?

First, I just want to say theme park design sounds amazing.

So that sounds like a great career shift.

But yeah, I joined the union maybe after about four months of working.

Well, I was voted in about four or five months after moving out

to Chicago, which is very quick.

Like, I've had people say it's taken them years to get into the union.

So I definitely feel very lucky.

And I'm glad I did join.

Like Jamie said, there is no right or wrong way because everyone

has a different lifestyle and career options that they want.

So if you like the idea of doing more freelance, where you can kind of be your

own boss and set your own schedule That's great and you can kind of do the same

with the union, but you have to agree to that collective bargaining power.

A thing that I really appreciate about the union is not necessarily just the

pay, is they have a lot of educational opportunities and they help provide

things like insurance that you don't always get when you're working on low

budget or indie productions, but they also provide educational assistance.

So, if you are going to go back to school, if you have a spouse or child

that's going to school that they can offer educational assistance.

And they also just offer classes like 476, they offer CPR certification.

They have basic construction classes.

You can get forklift certified.

So they do offer a lot of training outside of being at

work physically, which is great.

If you have some time when you're not working and you still want to

learn and improve your skills, that's always a great option that they

have those skills for you to learn.

And also just networking, because I didn't know anyone out here

really when I moved to Chicago.

I think if I hadn't joined the union, and I decided to still be a PA, I

definitely wouldn't meet the people that I work so closely with now

and have the same opportunities.

I would still just be telling people to put on masks and make sure they get

their COVID test, which, a job is a job.

No shame to that.

But I definitely am glad I did because it is providing me with more opportunities.

Yeah.

Jim final thoughts here about unions?

I would build on what both the ladies have said here.

I think that the union is a choice you can make in West Michigan.

I tell students if you want to be in production in West Michigan,

if you're not going to move out of town, at least go get your name

on what they call the casual list.

And that way you can get referrals to different union

jobs that might need your skills.

And I think the idea of training is a fantastic one as well.

The union here has gone full scale into training.

So yeah, get that Hi-Lo license, get certified as a rigger, even if

you don't intend to stand on the top of buildings and pull chains.

Do all that stuff.

I'm just about to teach an audio class for a bunch of folks in the union, because

we need more people that can at least do the basic working of audio equipment.

And I think any of those opportunities are not going to be there if you're

completely in the gig economy, and you're doing your own thing.

Which for some works, I've seen students at Grand Valley leave and do

fantastic work directly out of the gate.

But then there's a lot of folks who are like, " Not exactly sure

what I'm doing with this degree.

I know all this technical stuff now, but I can't put it to use because I just don't

know who to call to make that happen."

And in that case, you can use the union and meet some people without necessarily

getting the card and joining fully.

Not that I would say anything against that as well.

I probably get a card this year, finally, because they're pressuring me, "Hey, if

you're going to be a boss, you should probably have a card in your hand."

it's a different decision for everyone.

I went 35 years without having union backing, but I've really enjoyed

the last eight or nine of them, just learning the system of the union

and getting in and doing gigs with those folks, because there's some

fantastic people and some fantastic contacts that I've made through it.

Absolutely.

And, built a network, a structure for wages, talking about insurance

and classes and all of that works because, people come together and

fight for each other's rights.

I always like to end these podcasts with just like a really high note here.

So if we could just go around and talk about something you're really proud

of in your career, something you just did recently, a problem you solved.

Something that you tackled, put together.

Let's start with Jaz.

What is something you're really proud of recently?

I've only worked on 3 TV shows since being in the union.

Most recently The Bear came out and they're starting season two now.

I'm not working on season two, but I worked on season one, and

that was a very food heavy show, because it's about a restaurant.

The cool thing with props is you're doing so many different

things, depending on the show.

So the fact that I was working on a show, so food heavy.

I think actually taught me how to be a better cook a little bit, I guess.

I really enjoyed being on that show and I'm like, "Oh, I didn't

know you could do this with food.

I guess it's not really a career highlight, but I don't know, working

on that show definitely was like, "Oh, maybe I should try this when I'm cooking.

That might be fun."

and also the fact that it got a Golden Globe nomination.

An awesome show.

But as soon as you said it earlier, I was like, "Oh, I love that show."

Yeah, but even working on the other shows that I worked on, like with

Force, we do a lot of things with guns.

And so I knew nothing about guns before going on the show.

Going on, working on that show definitely is teaching me a lot of

things that I don't already know.

Learning how to make fake drugs, I guess, is cool too.

You just pick up a lot of different skills that I didn't know I would need in life.

Jim, what's something you're really proud of recently?

Well, 2 things , I had taught at Davenport for about 10 years in the

business department, so I am about a year and a half into teaching at Grand

Valley and teaching both the audio and some of the video classes and that's

been like a dream come true for me.

I really enjoy giving back and teaching students that the one thing I felt

like in my undergrad that I didn't have was "How do you figure out what

you want to do when you grow up?"

Just talking with the students in a direct way and saying,

"Hey, don't worry about it.

Here's some tips that maybe I didn't get as an undergrad," is really fantastic.

And then the other weird little thing was, this fall, through the Local 26

union, I got certified as a rigger, which is something I never thought I would do.

But the opportunity came up and I thought, I just want to see what it's like

for those crazy people who go up in the ceiling of these arenas, 80 feet up and

pull motor chains and things like that up.

And they're a whole different breed to be able to do that.

And it still scares the hell out of me, but it's fun to have the knowledge

and it's part of safety as well.

I can know when things are sketchy now that I wasn't aware of before.

It's been a really a new thing.

I've walked the beam a couple of times and it's scary and thrilling at the same time.

So I feel like I'm still challenging myself as an old guy, which is good.

That's so cool.

At next concert, I'll look up and maybe I'll see you up there.

Jamie, take us out of here.

I'm going to bounce off what Jim said, because 2 years ago during

the pandemic, me and a colleague started our own online school

called The Essential Art Department.

And we just celebrated 2 years.

So, very proud that it's been going strong and we've been

growing as an online school.

We teach online classes about working in the art department.

We started it as similar to what Jim said just being direct with

students of things you might not have learned in a traditional classroom.

And, how do you get your start in the art department?

And some things that you need to know?

We made it online cause it was a pandemic.

So we're reaching people all over the world, which is really cool.

So very proud of that.

Starting a business is hard.

I never thought I'd be a teacher, but here we are.

And then second one, with my current job, we just wrapped "Kingdom of the Planet of

the Apes," which was shot in Australia.

It was my biggest film that I've worked on since being at Disney and 20th Century.

It was a very complicated shoot.

I was here in Los Angeles while it was going on and the time

difference between Australia and Los Angeles is quite a challenge.

And so dealing with such a big production, but not being there physically on

set was really hard and I'm just very proud that it just recently wrapped.

Wow.

Well, hey, thanks to all three of you for joining us.

Thank you so much.

Thank you guys.

Yeah, thanks.

This was very great to learn from people who have way more experience

than I do to hear your guys input.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.

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