Erin: When we travel, we have an urge to share our experience with others.

Some of us share photos and videos to Instagram, others text back and forth

with family and friends, and some people blog about their travels or just share

travel stories through discussion.

Regardless of where we share our travels, we all have a responsibility

to share them mindfully.

This is because what we post, write, or say about the places we visit

have the power to shape perceptions, maintain unfair stereotypes,

and perpetuate colonial views.

As my online presence in the travel space has grown, I've become increasingly

aware of the language and the images.

That I use when I share my travels.

Someone I came across in my learnings about this is Vincy Ho.

She is the founder and executive director of Rise Travel Institute,

which is a nonprofit organization that has a mission to inspire

responsible, impactful, sustainable, and ethical travel through education.

Vincy has a background in linguistics, and with her ongoing work in social

justice and travel, Katie and I thought she would be the perfect person to

chat with about travel language.

Kattie: Is this the first time that you've listened to Curious Tourism,

the responsible travel podcast?

If so, make sure that you've hit the follow button right now on

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, because there

is plenty more to come this season.

Erin: If you want to get in touch with us, you can find us on

Instagram at Curious Tourism Pod.

You can DM us.

or email us anytime.

All of our contact info is in the episode description.

But before we chat with Fincy, we need to catch up with Katie because she

recently got back from a very epic trip.

Oh,

Vincie Ho: where did you go?

Kattie: Such a nice segue.

Um, okay.

So I went to Nova Scotia and had.

The best time ever, like immediately I can just tell you,

it was a solid 15 out of 10.

I'm not surprised

Vincie Ho: at

Kattie: all.

Ugh, it was so fun, so fun.

I had the best time ever.

And as you know, I took Via Rail all the way from Brantford to Halifax.

That's amazing.

It took me...

37 hours.

Erin: So it was one sleep.

It was one sleep.

Okay.

Did you sleep like a total

Kattie: baby?

Yes.

I slept so well.

Train sleeps

Erin: are like, I literally just crave them.

They're the best

Kattie: sleeps.

You were messaging me this when I was on the train.

You were like, did you sleep so well?

Like, rocks and all.

Erin: It's true, though.

I remember, like, when we were in India, we were on the night trains all the

time, and I would look forward to them.

Like, we're staying in hotels, but I would literally be, like, I'm excited

for the night train, because I would just have the best sleep of my life.

Kattie: Yeah, Mark and I stayed overnight.

We did not sleep.

sleep in economy or in business class.

We were lucky enough to have a sleeper cabin with a shower, which was epic.

I don't think I read the tickets properly when I booked them.

I didn't realize that I had booked like a bunk bed for Mark and I.

Oh, that's usually all they have.

We, so basically when we walked in the car.

all the doors are open as people are like entering their rooms.

And some people just keep their door open all the time.

And you're like, I feel like I'm invading your privacy, but like,

okay, because also there's good views.

It's for airflow.

Yeah, it is for airflow.

Yeah, we had bunk beds and we had breakfast in the dining car

and there was like a lounge car.

It was A great time.

Very chill.

Very, very chill.

Honestly, a great way to start the vacation.

Cause like, sometimes you feel like you're just in it immediately when you land.

And like, this new place is just overwhelming.

When you're on the train, you can just like, simmer into it kind of thing.

Which was gorgeous.

Beautiful.

Erin: Yeah.

It's so stress free.

Because all you got to do is just be there.

Just gotta show up.

So you got there by train.

Yes.

The trip itself.

What were your top three highlights?

Kattie: Okay.

So we've talked about this a little bit on the podcast about how I think you

and I are similar in that when we travel we want like a little bit of chill, a

little bit of like city life, and like.

Kind of an outdoor experience.

So that was kind of like what the trip was.

So we were in Halifax for like a couple of days.

And Kate, did you recommend Yaya Pizza to me?

Definitely.

Because we went there and demolished an entire margarita

pizza that was so incredible and delicious and perfectly crispy.

I left them a five star review.

Oh, this is my new thing now.

I leave, I leave reviews on Google.

on Google Maps.

I have, I am level five.

Wait,

Erin: but the important question is, did you go on the Halifax

side or in the Dartmouth side?

Kattie: So we were mostly on the Halifax side, and then we did

like a little mini drive through Dartmouth just to like check it out.

Nice.

In Halifax, the places that were like my top favorite, Mark and I

had so many just fun days there.

So we like obviously just roamed around the city just to see

what's going on everywhere.

And then we went to this really amazing cocktail bar for happy hour.

We went immediately after we went and got pizza.

We went there to get happy hour oysters.

So we got oysters and cocktails and the vibes at this place.

It was called the Highwaymen and it was The most perfect bar ever

because the music was perfect.

The cocktails were so delicious.

Like everything was just cute.

And then one night, Mark and I, we were going to go to what we were

recommended to go to, which was this place called the Lower Deck.

And they have like the go to band that plays on Sundays.

But it was like.

Orientation week.

So all the students were there and there was like a big outdoor

festival happening instead.

But on our way there, we walked by this place called Pacifico that

had a funk band playing and we were like that place looks fun.

So that's our backup plan.

So we ended up going there because the lower deck was like jam packed.

And then, so we went to Pacifico, we danced, and had

cocktails, and it was so fun.

Another night we went to this brewery slash arcade, and accidentally

attended a metal show, and that was super fun, and we were still like

bopping and awake that night, so then we decided to go to karaoke, and had

the weirdest karaoke experience ever, because nobody was at this karaoke bar.

Literally just Mark and I in our own private room, and

the whole place was silent.

And we were like, well, we're in here, like, we feel like

we need to commit to it.

So we had a really good time in Halifax.

There's so many fun places to go.

It's the, it's the city to go if you want to have a nice, a nice time.

We did go to Lunenburg.

We went to Peggy's Cove.

Did

Erin: you see the

Kattie: Blue Nose?

I'm not sure, we were looking at it from afar.

Erin: Yeah, like a big ship with a big ass mast.

Kattie: They all look like big ships with big ass masts.

Vincie Ho: Well,

Kattie: the blue nose really stands out though.

I'm not a ship lover like you.

I'm like, cool,

Vincie Ho: that's a boat.

Erin: My like, relative was, was like a person on that ship.

There's a record of this.

Kattie: That's so cool.

I feel like I'm just trashing on your experience.

I've definitely told you this.

Lunenburg

Erin: is literally my home, like, like my family's from there,

Kattie: originally.

We bought so much art when we were in there, when we were there to bring home.

It was so fun to just walk around and like, look at everything.

Katie,

Erin: this is why I wear the Lunenburg

Kattie: shirt.

I've never noticed that.

My

Erin: father would be so upset if he heard this discussion.

Kattie: Well, we had a lovely time.

Erin: Did you know that it's one of the best preserved,

like, villages in Nova Scotia?

Kattie: Yes, I knew this.

I knew the historical significance of it being, like, a UNESCO World

Heritage Site and everything.

And then guess where we went after we went to Lunenburg?

For lobster.

Yes, we went and got a lobster supper at the Shore Club, and

we were so bloated afterwards.

Oh, yeah.

This is the travel information everyone needs to know.

If you're going to go travel for lobster, be prepared.

To be so gassy, because we did a lobster boil at my friend's parents place.

That's where we went, like, kind of our first night.

And Mark and I could not stop tooting all night.

I have

Erin: no regrets.

You haven't even said anything about Cape Breton.

Kattie: Cape Breton was awesome.

We stayed in a yurt in Cape Breton at this, like, hilarious resort that was

seemingly completely run by teenagers, but that's, it was just so funny.

Uh, but yeah, Cape Breton was amazing.

We went whale watching there.

We saw, like, a huge pod of pilot whales.

We went to Chetty Camp.

Erin: Did you drive the whole Cabot Trail?

Yeah, we drove the whole

Kattie: thing.

Nice.

But we only saw half of it because the other half of it was all fog.

Erin: Yeah.

I always tell people like if you're going to Cape Breton, add like double the

amount of time you think you need because if you have one bad weather day, it's

just like, it's kind of like Iceland.

Like, you just don't know what the weather will be.

And if you have like one or two bad weather days, you just won't see anything.

Uh,

Kattie: okay.

I feel like we have talked quite enough.

Erin: Wait, but I think you should summarize, like, top three highlights.

Kattie: Okay.

Number one, go to Pacifico and watch The Mellotones.

Okay.

Dance party there.

Best band, definitely in the top three.

I would also say this is in no particular order, but another top thing was lobster

supper at the Shore Club, 1000% worth it, and also the dessert was sublime.

Okay.

Erin: I'm surprised there's nothing on Cape Briton.

Kattie: Nothing is on Cape Breton because we spent the least amount of time there.

So, didn't get to know it as well as the other places.

But I would say the other top thing was when we were in Lawrence Town, which I

haven't talked about yet, we stayed four days in Seaford slash Lawrence Town, which

is the surfing capital of Nova Scotia.

And just staying there was Awesome, and I would recommend

the bunky that we stayed in.

I would recommend the area that we stayed in.

We had the best time literally staying in our bunky.

We did over 16 crossword puzzles in our bunky.

We were just chilling having a nice time.

We Rode our bikes all the way to the beach.

We got to swim in the North Atlantic.

We got to enjoy some classic Donair.

So just like staying in that area of Nova Scotia, I would just say

is a full experience in itself.

So those are my top three.

Erin: Love it.

Hi, Vinci.

Hello, Erin.

Thanks for joining us.

I'm so excited to

Vincie Ho: chat with you.

Thank you for having me on your show.

I'm very excited to be chatting with you too.

So, to

Erin: start, I'm really curious about your path to becoming the

founder of an organization that's dedicated to responsible tourism.

How did you first become interested in responsible tourism?

Was there an aha moment or a moment where it just started to become important

Vincie Ho: to you?

I would say there were definitely quite a few of aha moments in the past, uh, 10, 15

years or so of, you know, my traveling, I became interested in responsible tourism

when I When I realized how irresponsible I once was as a traveler, so, you know,

like elephant riding, I did a few times and it is absolutely outrageous now that

I look back and I'm surprised and appalled in how As an animal lover yearning for the

connection with animals, I did not notice all the scars on their heads and you know

caused by the sharp hooks and how they are chained when they're not put in service.

So that was definitely one of those moments.

I remember back in 2010, I was working in Senegal for a refugee

non profit, and I took a few days off to travel from Dakar to St.

Louis, and on the way there, we drove past a tribal village living in tents,

and we got off our 4x4 and basically intruded or invaded the village uninvited.

And then the next thing was, you know, we were taking pictures of them and

with them, and I believe we even gave them some money, um, assuming they

were poor and probably wanted to make ourselves, you know, feel better.

And they never said they wanted our money, you know?

It was so wrong on so many levels, and at the time I just realized

something was wrong, but I couldn't quite articulate what that was.

So I had to think about it and reflect.

And then afterwards there was another, um...

Another experience too, which was also in a hot moment, when I joined a

volunteer program in Rwanda, led by a Western, uh, volunteerism organization.

It was very trendy, you know, 10, 15 years ago.

I was placed in an orphanage.

And again, it sounds terrible right now, you know, looking back.

Back then, I believed that was something everybody should be doing,

you know, like, quote, unquote, giving back while traveling.

And not until the few weeks I was there that I realized that not only

did I have nothing special to offer, the volunteerism company was making

a huge profit of white saverism.

And the whole experience was extremely voyeuristic.

And I was there taking pictures with the kids.

I still have those pictures.

Um, teaching them English and then after a few weeks they, they bonded

with me and then I had to go.

And then new volunteers came in and the cycle repeated.

You know, all the mistakes that I made were either, um, unintentional

or even with good intentions, but still it's not an excuse, right?

I realized that ignorance is not an excuse and we can all do better, um, and foster

more meaningful experiences during our travels in a much more So then when I

moved to America, I started to work with good travel and, uh, I started to learn

more about how to use travel or tourism as a force for good, like the real good,

instead of just saying that, you know, we are traveling to help the world.

And so like with her and, um.

And good travel and the team of amazing women.

I learned along the way that responsible travel or responsible tourism.

It's not just about like wanting to give back while you travel.

There's so so many nuances to what that even means.

And then I also worked with Impact Travel Alliance with Kelly

Louise, and I definitely learned a lot from the process as well.

So In the past 10 years, little by little, I kind of like made

my way into sustainable travel, the sustainable travel realm.

And I wanted to write a curriculum to kind of inspire travelers to to talk

about these things and and also reflect upon their own travels like I did,

which is which is how I started Rice Travel Institute two, three years ago.

Erin: Amazing.

Your experience is so relatable because I also in the past have done

things that like I now recognize we're not responsible in my own travels.

I actually think it's like a path that a lot of people take because a lot of

people I talk in the responsible tourism space say this, that they like it.

Yeah.

had experiences that just didn't feel right to them.

And that's when they started to sort of question the way that they were traveling

and the impact that that was having.

I love that you brought up volunteerism because I actually

like recently had a video go viral on TikTok about volunteerism.

And I was so surprised at all the comments of people below

the video saying that they had.

Participated in volunteerism, but during their experience doing it, they were

like, something feels wrong about this.

And so it's sort of like, it's marketed to you as this experience, but then when

you're on it, I think a lot of people nowadays, when they're actually having

that experience, start to recognize like, Oh, I don't know about this.

So I noticed a lot of the people that were speaking up in the comments

of that video were people who had actually participated in volunteerism,

which I find really interesting.

Vincie Ho: Absolutely.

And I think that, But that's very relatable to the topic

that we talk about today.

It's not in our intention to cause harm, but sometimes we're just not

realizing what we're doing that could have an impact on other people.

Erin: I love that we're going to talk about language today because

this is something I think about so much, like the communications aspect

of tourism, because I think like.

some of the ignorance that people have in their travel practices is because of all

this communications that's going on, um, through marketing and through other venues

that sort of make you feel like this experience is good and, and worth doing.

But I wanted to start by talking about how travel today has

been shaped by 20th century,

Most world travel was simply colonialism and I think today travel

writing, even the way that we talk about and share our travels has been

shaped by that colonial history.

So for example, the earliest travel writings came from the

field notes of colonizers.

As far back as the 13th century, who wrote about their travels.

So with your educational background and your experience in linguistics, as well

as your work in social justice, Katie and I thought you would be the perfect

person to talk with about travel language.

Could you explain why we should be cognizant of how we talk and

share the places that we travel to?

Vincie Ho: Especially Nowadays, we're in two thousand and twenty three with the

evolution of social media, everyone who travels is in a way or another, a travel

writer, and as of today, like more than one billion people worldwide are using

Instagram and even more so, um, are even, uh, using TikTok, like, you know, Aaron,

you yourself, um, are a TikTok user.

And then there are countless So, Facebook groups and and then there are self

identified travel writers who have blogs and vlogs and podcasts and so millions

of people Trained or untrained writers socially conscious or not Are sharing

the content sharing their own travel stories Uh, from their own perspectives

every single day, and not everyone realizes that they have an immense

power to influence their readers or followers, especially those who have

never been to those places that we, that they talked about, and that's their

first impression about these places and the people who live in those places.

in these places, right?

So, so we have this power to influence what people think and we

need to make sure that we're doing the place and the people justice,

you know, the, that we write about.

So I still remember when, um, I think it was before I started Rise, I was

a member of a few Facebook groups.

Uh, for avid travelers or people who love to travel and some groups have more

than like tens of thousands of members.

And it's not uncommon to see someone say, Oh, I absolutely hate

country X, country Y, country Z.

Oh yeah, I've seen this.

I know, I just, I found that incredibly unfair to write an entire country

of, to badmouth an entire country and entire people and discourage people

from going just because of an unpleasant personal experience while traveling.

I'm sure everyone has had, like, very unpleasant experiences back home

throughout our lives anyway, so does that mean that people should never come visit?

No.

And it's also so unfair to judge when you don't even know the historical, political,

or social context of the country you're traveling to, and the conditions people

live in, and the challenges and injustices that they're fighting every single day.

So...

When we get there as a short term tourist, observing things through our

own lens, shaped by our own worldview, um, and an unconscious bias without

understanding why things are how they are, then, then feel the entitlement to

generalize about the country or people.

That's, that's really irresponsible and unjust.

So if we're not cognizant of the language we use when, when we talk about a place

or a people, we risk misrepresenting them, and we risk perpetuating, um,

stereotypes, biases, and causing harm.

We have a huge responsibility in terms of, like, what we share on the

internet, and what we share throughout writing, or, like, our photos as well.

Erin: Absolutely.

I think it's so easy to forget, like, how powerful language really is.

Absolutely.

Especially when people see these repeated messages, these generalizations and

these biases that get like repeated through all these little messages.

It may seem like nothing, but when you combine them all, it can really

shape someone's perception of a place.

Vincie Ho: And hence change people's lives for the worse.

Erin: Absolutely.

And the frustrating thing is like these generalizations, like, they're

rooted in misunderstanding of a place.

So we've talked about why it's important to be mindful of

how we talk about our travels.

Now let's focus more on how we choose specific words.

So some words that we use in travel can convey colonial undertones.

I was hoping you could give us some examples of those words and

explain why using them can be

Vincie Ho: harmful.

So I think before We take a closer look at some examples of words and expressions

that convey colonial undertones, or even some even outright oppressive.

I just wanted to make sure that we're on the same page with our

listeners on a couple of things.

First of all, English is obviously not my native language, and I've spent 40

years So 40 something years learning it and I'm still learning every day.

But I want us, wanted to say, uh, that even for native speakers, there

are words that we didn't consider as offensive, maybe five years ago.

And now all of a sudden we're told that they're offensive and our job is

to understand why they are offensive or oppressive and the harm that

they could cause, and then just.

Learn not to use them anymore.

I recognize that this is a hard process of unlearning and from my perspective

as a linguist it is Certainly incredibly difficult Because for decades where

we've acquired The language systems that, that, you know, the, the systems

of the languages that we know and how they intersect with, uh, social

constructs that we've also internalized.

But that does not give us the excuse to continue to perpetuate harm because

all it takes for us is to be more mindful with the words that we use.

So just two decades ago, it was totally okay to use the term third world.

For example, and how it's, it's unacceptable and the term developing

countries is generally accepted because that's what the UN uses and the global

north and global south, the north south divide is, it's not entirely accurate,

but that's what we use to distinguish between historical colonial Powers

or like the present economic powers, as opposed to the rest of the world.

Is it the most ideal way of referring to countries?

Maybe not, but this is the kind of language that we're

working with right now.

And language keeps evolving.

So maybe like a few years down the road, we'll come up with better terms, more

ethical terms, uh, that will be able to, uh, represent the countries in a more.

just way.

I'm going to share a few examples of words or expressions that are either,

um, that either have colonial roots or implications that are exclusionary.

I personally have retired using most of them, but it doesn't mean that you

should never use any of them because sometimes it also depends on the context.

Uh, and in some contexts it is.

It may be okay or more neutral to use certain words.

So, the first couple of words that I think that come to mind

would be discover or explore.

Like, clearly, like, the word discovery has its colonial roots.

Columbus, like, discovered the Americas, but hey, like, indigenous peoples.

have been the inhabitants of the Americas before the arrival of European settlers

and African slaves in the 15th century.

So, so, like, people were already living here where we're talking right

now, where we're living right now.

So to use the word discover, it's almost like, hey, like, dismissing the fact

that people So the word discover has this colonial undertone and in, which

is why I usually would avoid using it.

And then there are obviously like the, the word conquer.

Hey, I conquered the summit of Mount Everest.

And then I like physically erect a flag.

My country up there.

Like, what is that about?

Seriously.

And then do a bucket list.

Yeah.

It's almost like you have a world Atlas in front of you and your.

Putting pushpins.

Now, I mean, we all do that.

Like I did that before as well.

But now I feel that maybe we should stop doing that because countries are

not objects, you know, we don't put them on the bucket list just because

we there are places that we want to go to and that we want to do a country

and when people say doing a country like that also It's of course like

You know, we, we do, we all have our preferences of where we want to go, and

I acknowledge that, and some places or countries or regions do fascinate us more

than others, and we do have some Bye.

I don't know, like likings for some cultures over others that

we may not even know, right?

So, I mean, I understand that, but like making a list of, of, of

countries or places and like calling that, calling that your bucket list

and like, hey, this is the next step.

It's almost like, okay, where to invade next, right?

Erin: Yeah, I actually like on bucket list because I find that such an interesting

one because it's used so, so often.

Um, I feel like it almost gamifies travel.

Like you were saying, it turns it into this like.

activity of collection, which does, when you think about it, have a bit

of a colonial feel to it as well.

And it makes me think a lot about country counting as well, because

Vincie Ho: I know

Erin: a lot of people, like I see it in people's bios all the

time, like 60 plus countries.

And it always makes me think about, to go back to your point about doing a

country, I always think to myself, like, No one can really do a country, like I

could go, I could go to India 80 times and still not really have seen India.

Even my own country, like I've lived here my whole life and I don't think

I'll ever fully know Canada in the way that I probably should because it's just

impossible to really get to know a place in its entirety and in the kind of depth

and nuance that like would really mean.

You've done it.

I mean, it's kind of interesting to think about, like, what does

that really mean to do a country?

Vincie Ho: Also, and also the way of saying it, right.

It almost like feels like objectifying.

You're absolutely right.

When we, when we travel, even.

Even if we do make it to the places on our bucket list, when we talk

about travel, like leisure travels, it's usually referred to short term

travel or travel or visits, right?

And how even the most superficial understanding of a country.

You won't be able to get, like, even just 5 percent or 1 percent of that,

like, within a few days, right?

And, and then people feel that they have the authority to write about these places.

And, and to be an authoritative voice, like, oh, I've traveled there, so now I

have the right to say something about it.

I mean, there are certainly like very good and very ethical travel writers out there.

However, like again, back to the social media culture that I talked

about, everybody would be sharing something about the places they

visit, um, they recently visited.

And then it's just that entitlement, you know, about how right it feels

for us to Just talk about other people's homes and comment and

give our opinions on those places.

It's just, yeah, I mean, we have a lot of work to do and we all need to,

I mean, it's a long road of learning again and an improvement that we all

need to be aware of and on board.

Erin: Yeah, like I'm curious what you would say, because I'm sure you have the

struggle as well, like, I'll get invited to do interviews, and people will ask

me, how many countries have you been to?

And it feels sometimes like I'm forced to give into these terms that like,

I know, I don't want to, because I'll never even give people a straight answer.

I'll just be like, Oh, something like this many.

I'll always try to avoid it, but I never know if it's like appropriate

to counter it and say, actually, I don't want to talk about that.

I don't know.

What's your take

Vincie Ho: on that?

Uh, well, first of all, I have a confession to make

that I used to do that too.

I used to have that in my bio because the thing is, let's say

when you first start your career in tourism, you kind of want to.

Erin: It signals authority, in a

Vincie Ho: sense.

It signals authority, and you want people...

To like that gives you credibility as well because you are really well traveled.

Otherwise, like why would people listen to you, right?

However, it's not about the number of countries that you've been to

is about how much reflection we have like on our past travels It

could be just a one time journey.

Like it could be like a one month long journey in one country, but you may

like you may get A lot more out of your trip because you reflect upon it and

you try to learn and you do research, you know, and you try to connect with

the people or try to understand even after your trip, continue to continue

to read about the country and like learn more about the culture as opposed

to a person who's traveled a lot.

To 60, 70, 80 countries, but you know, it doesn't mean anything.

It's like a lot of people love quoting Mark Twain's travel is a what?

Travel is fatal to bigotry, to prejudice.

No!

Travel itself is not fatal to bigotry.

It's the reflection upon your own travels and your willingness to

learn and research that will help you grow from from prejudice and so on.

One of the things that I wanted to point out maybe later in this

discussion is some of the words are problematic and in themselves, but

then they're so widely used that you're kind of forced to use them too.

Within this industry, you, you have to, so the, the word destination, for example.

Erin: Yeah, it's, I, I struggle with that one so much.

Vincie Ho: Yeah.

So the word destination, because as soon as you talk about, you use the

word destination, you're viewing a country as a product of tourism.

Yeah.

When we talk about.

Our destinations immediately.

We're looking at countries or places from the perspective of a tourist destiny.

Our destinations are other people's homes.

And that's, you know, that we are Many of us know nowadays and all aware of that and

it's still like we cannot really retire this work because the entire country,

sorry, the entire industry, the entire world is using has been using this term.

So when you don't use this term, people don't even know what you're talking about.

Almost right.

So, so it is, it is very tricky.

Even Rice Travel Institute as an organization, we started, um, um,

uh, conscious travel series, like a series of short courses that

are specific to, uh, locations.

And it's like one hour course on, uh, courses on Guatemala,

on, um, New Zealand, on Bhutan.

We wanted to offer an alternative to travel guides like the traditional

or mainstream travel guides.

And we want to take our students on a deep dive into the history, culture,

political, social context of, uh, the, those countries nowadays and how, like,

how the context is affecting the most vulnerable communities, uh, in, in those.

Places and we started off by calling them destination courses, you know,

and it's still hard to move away from that because that's the language

that the entire industry uses.

So we have to go along as well.

However, internally and without students when we get a chance to talk more

deeply about these things, we want to be able to have conversations about

the nuances like when we talk about our, uh, Um, conscious travel series.

Nowadays, we would call them place based courses.

Erin: Yeah.

After emailing back and forth and you, you had mentioned the word

destination in our email thread and I started to think about it like a lot.

And in my own writing, I was like, how do I avoid using this word?

And I'm finding like the best way to avoid it is to just say it like with different

phrasing, like say the name of the place versus saying, using the word destination.

Yeah, like it's sort of just like you can omit it by just using other

neutral language is what I'm finding.

I wanted to touch on something else you mentioned which is that a lot of

these words like have to do with how tourists are viewing a place like through

their own lens and this is something I find with my own travel writing.

Sometimes I'll make a point to say Everything I'm telling you is through my

perspective as a visitor in this place.

I don't know everything about this place.

This is just what my experience was.

Um, because that's, I don't know, I personally feel like that's the best you

can do because, because we are tourists.

So we have to acknowledge that we are, but I guess what you're

saying is it's about just you.

Being more responsible about the actual words that we use

in representing our own tourist

Vincie Ho: experiences.

Absolutely, so there are words that we...

need to be mindful of, um, when we write, and also telling your readers that these

are observations through my own lens, you know, when I travel, and it should by no

mean generalize whatever phenomenon that you were trying to depict in your writing.

There's also another way of doing it, which is in your tribal writing, Or

like during your travels that you're going to write about, connect with

the locals and try to bring their voices in, into your writing as well.

You know, you can, you can include quotes.

You can have like, you know, short, not as official as interviews, but

like you can, if there's a way to record part of your conversations with

permission to share their point of views, like there's perspectives on,

on things that you observe, then that would make your travel writing a lot.

Less subjective, because sometimes like we make assumptions about how things

are in the country that we travel to.

And even like with all the news, like all the, all the news that

are going on that we read about.

I'll give you a perfect example of the, uh, of the Mayan train

in the Yucatan in Mexico.

It is a hugely controversial.

Project and from the point of view of a social justice advocate, like,

of course, I think, yeah, I know that there's gonna be like a lot of

negative impact on the local communities having such a big, like, development,

like infrastructure development project and that's gonna destroy.

a lot of cultural artifacts and things like that.

And we're going to bring over tourism to all these places, right?

However, when I got to talk to, um, one of our partners that work closely, who

work closely with indigenous communities, uh, local communities in the, in the

area, they actually say that they

Um, and I think, um, a lot of open up to the world.

And, you know, sometimes we have a lot of assumptions about what is good for the

locals and what is right for the locals.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that's how they think.

Of course, that's also the right.

Well, education also comes into play, right?

Like, how much are they actually informed about how they're

going to be negatively impacted?

But still, their voices are important.

Erin: Bringing in other perspectives, for sure.

Vincie Ho: Absolutely.

I mean, I say, I saw a ton of examples of like what worst we, we could consider

retiring, but like, I also want to be mindful of our time because that's a lot.

We, when we talk about like empower the locals, like what is exotic, what

is authentic, you know, like those are like, and also there are so many

other problematic expressions as well.

For example, in all these tourism marketing materials.

see like nature or countryside, paradise and like pristine beaches

and like as harmless as they seem, we are basically, again, like dismissing

the fact that people do live there.

And hey, if you have a pristine beach, that's most likely

because it is a privatized beach.

Which also, which means that, like, local people are barred from

being able to enjoy the natural resources that they are entitled to.

Yeah.

Using the word paradise, it's like, no, well, do you know that there are actually

people who live there and who actually?

are like fighting social injustices every day.

And because of our presence as tourists, you know, that there could be injustices

that got exacerbated because of tourism projects in those countries.

Right.

So, so we need to be cognizant of those things, um, before we

even choose to use these words.

Erin: Yeah.

Something I do myself is I always think about like for lack of a

better I'll say to myself, does this word sound like too much?

Am I Being too descriptive and a lot of the words that are really, um,

problematic and travel I find are those sort of over the top phrases

like paradise or untouched beaches.

Vincie Ho: Yeah, that's the sales and marketing language, right?

Erin: It is.

You're trying to sell and I work in marketing.

So I'm like, I know what these words are.

I'm just going to keep it neutral.

Vincie Ho: Because if it's too neutral and then all your competitors are using the

over the top words, then you're But I also

Erin: wonder sometimes because, like, I find when I read, especially travel

content that uses those kinds of words, the problematic aspect aside, sometimes

it feels like they're trying too hard.

I find I don't believe what I'm reading because it just doesn't

feel like natural language.

And it

Vincie Ho: doesn't feel genuine.

Yeah,

Erin: yeah, exactly.

I don't find I respond very well to travel writing that is that over

Vincie Ho: the top.

That's right.

Yeah.

But then, however, um, most consumers, that's the kind of

language that most consumers buy.

Yeah.

And are used

Erin: to.

Yeah.

So it's pretty clear that the language we use when we write about or talk

about our travels has an impact.

I know that personally, it's been a learning curve over several years to sort

of unlearn these common words and phrases.

And it's, it's a journey that I am still on, I'm still learning

words that I should be avoiding.

And I think Over time, we'll probably find more words that we should be removing

because language is always evolving.

So, it's not easy work.

I wanted to ask, are there words that you're finding you're

struggling to retire yourself?

Vincie Ho: Uh, yeah, absolutely.

Well, first of all, as I just said, um, destination.

It also, it took me some time to stop using the word.

Explore, discover.

Because we're so used to using those words, right?

And then all of a sudden I was told not to use the word explore, and then

I stopped using it at all, like, you know, completely, while not understanding

that well, it's actually okay to use the word explore when you say,

like, you know, Explore partnership opportunities, explore, you know,

what this research topic may mean or, you know, you can, you can still use

that word, but not in the sense of exploring a place or like discovering

a place, you know, things like that.

The word empower is difficult to, to move away from because, um, it is

the language, basically, it is the language that most nonprofits use.

And when we say empower women, women empowerment, children

empowerment, refugee empowerment.

The way I understand is when you use the word empower, for example, it

almost implies a power hierarchy.

It's like, oh, you are in this position that you, you want to share that you

want to give power to some people.

But then, hey, we took away their power in the first place.

It's time to return that power.

It's very, like, it's this The white savior complex that that comes in

through this work as well that I'm trying to find a better term for that.

But it's sometimes it's hard because there is no equivalent out there.

It seems maybe in a few years we'll come up with a better term.

But right now, for definitely within power is tricky.

Erin: Yeah, I find that too.

And I also find I struggle, like you said with explore.

Yeah, it's just so commonly used.

And sometimes it's like, I can't find any synonyms to use in its place.

Or if I can, it's like I'm using, cause sometimes I'll say like travel or yeah,

there's, there's just not that many like other words that you can use.

And so it's hard because it's like, I don't want to sound repetitive by using

the same word over and over again.

And so sometimes it's so tempting to say explore because

it's a way to like change up.

What you're saying.

Yeah.

Oh, we can talk all day about this.

Cause Katie and I talk all the time about even the word responsible tourism.

Sometimes we're like, is that even the right word?

Vincie Ho: Exactly.

Which is why, which is why I'm not sure if you know about this, but RISE is

actually an acronym for Responsible, Impactful, Sustainable and Ethical.

Because like, you know, when we started, we also didn't know like,

which Words would best describe the kind of work that we do.

And there's no, there's no such word that is like all encompassing.

Uh, right now everybody believes that regenerative travel, like

the word regenerative is the term.

However, again, there's a lot of regenerative travel washing out

there as well, which is doing the, the movement of the service.

I mean, in a

Erin: perfect world, we wouldn't need to use these words, like in a perfect world.

And this is me just being so hopeful for the future, but in a

perfect world, we wouldn't have to decipher between different types

of travel and like all travel would have more of a positive impact.

So maybe that's the goal that we get to a place where we don't have

to use any of these descriptors and we can just say travel.

It's hard because I think like a lot of people don't or feel uncomfortable.

Acknowledging how unjust systems of power are reflected in tourism.

It's sort of one of those realities that people don't wanna face,

especially when tourism for them, is just their one week escape from their

hectic lives and their work lives.

It's so complicated like we find.

it all the time.

Whenever Katie and I bring up travel privilege, people are just so upset

because they don't want to associate their travels with or their vacation

with this just like dose of reality.

Vincie Ho: It's hard to even understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

Because we, we are those who have, who have the means to travel to some someone

else's homes and like, A lot of, a lot of locals may not, may never have had the

chance to travel outside of, you know, their own country and all of a sudden we

feel so entitled and we disembark like we land there and then we just look for

things that would please us, you know, that would give us a And that's a concept

that need to be deconstructed because we need to start understanding that when we

go to a place, it's not our destination, it's, it's someone else home and they are

the host and we are the visitors and we are uninvited visitors sometimes, right?

So we, we really need to understand.

Stand, what our place is in, in, in this world as we move around, as we

navigate and just try to use or leverage our power and privilege to, to do

better things, more ethical things, and in the more ethical way, I guess.

I think this is a very, very, I, I, I'm loving this conversation and this

is such an important topic and we at RISE are currently working on putting

together an ebook on decolonizing travel.

We don't want to come across as the authority but we are, we are learning

as well and we just want to compile resources for anyone who want to learn

and for anyone who whom this would resonate with and, uh, and provide them

with some resources so that they know where to look and where to dive deeper.

So yeah, we're very excited about that project.

And a lot of what we talked about today actually, um, actually is included

in the, um, in the ebook as well.

Erin: To wrap up when it comes to sharing our travels through blogs, through

social media, or even just through chatting with friends or with family,

there is more to it than just language.

We also communicate about our travels through images and

video and other mediums as well.

So I'm curious if you have tips.

for how people can share their travels in a more responsible

way, regardless of the medium.

So whether it be language, images, video, what can we do to do better?

Vincie Ho: Yeah, I definitely would love to share a little

bit about what I would do.

Um, I certainly would not call them tips.

Again, like, you know, I, I don't want to come across as like being

authoritative in this, uh, at all.

So I guess, first of all, like cultivating awareness and having a willingness

to unlearn and understand that as a journey and that it's okay to admit

our past mistakes, like, you know, what I, what I just did at the beginning

of this podcast interview, it's only.

through our mistakes that we can learn how to do better, right?

So whether you're a travel writer or an organization or a business and even

rise, there are words that we used to use and that we no longer use because

we've learned why they are offensive.

And then when we choose our language, always ask ourselves if You know, whether

it carries colonial undertones, is the word or just basically what I'm writing

in general, do the, doing the place or the people justice, um, who could be harmed

by the way I write and the words I use.

Who's voices are left out as well, and who is left out of

what the words, uh, represent.

So, so by constantly asking yourself questions and checking

out our writing, I think that would be, that would be helpful.

Uh, seek to decolonize our mindsets in general, because

Aaron, you just said that it's...

Sometimes it's not just about tourism, it's, it's about everything, our

lifestyle, the way we think, and it's the way we think that we carry

with us when we travel, right?

So it's not just about travel itself, but like really our mindset and our

understanding of the world, and that's something that we can all do better.

And then practically, rather than saying discover, you know, I...

usually simply say visit, rather than saying authentic, we could

say traditional, you know, um, rather than doing something to

help or to empower the locals.

What if we just, what if we just like, you know, completely paraphrase

that and say, just emphasize on the respect and the opportunity to learn

from the locals and see how How we can contribute to projects that they lead.

It's about level leveling the playing field.

It's about like returning the power to the locals.

It's it's about like trying to remove ourselves from the center.

And then, yeah, rather than saying Burma say Myanmar.

I made this mistakes like 12 or 15 years ago myself, not understanding

why it was such a big deal.

But it is a big deal when we think about All the systemic oppressions that happened

during the colonial era and the aftermath and the legacy You know, it's it's also

about respecting people's identity Yeah, so there are a number of ways that that

we can all do better as we Uh, document our travels through writing, through

our images and well, ethical, uh, travel photography would be a completely, you

know, it would be a separate conversation.

But yeah, when we just need to realize how much power we have when we, when we write.

Erin: Well, thank you.

That is great advice.

I really love how you phrased that.

Okay.

So Vinci, we wanted to end on a lighter note.

and get some of your personal advice about where you live.

So I know you're based in the New York area.

Um, so we'd love to hear some tips that you have about personal favorites, things

to do, where to eat, galleries, parks.

Vincie Ho: Wow.

Okay.

So I, uh, I live in New Jersey, United States.

Uh, I've been here for about 10 years now on the indigenous.

Indigenous land of Manila.

And, uh, I am originally from Hong Kong.

So I wouldn't say, well, I definitely am not a local and I wouldn't say

that I know a lot about where I live.

Um, especially when I go out, I tend to go to Manhattan, you know, hang out

Erin: with my friends.

Vincie Ho: Yeah, so, like, apart from the biggest museums, I, I

really love tenement museums.

Oh, me too!

Yes!

I tell everyone

Erin: to go to the tenement, it's so

Vincie Ho: great.

It's so great.

Like, you can really learn about the first immigrant stories

and it's just fascinating.

And then in terms of where to eat, uh, I happen to live very close

To the Korea town of New Jersey, uh, which is Palisades Park.

And there is so much grapefruit and on, on one street called the broad street,

you feel like that you in Seoul with all the Korean like signs in Korean and so on.

And there are so.

Many, like, great, delicious restaurants.

See that I avoided using the word authentic.

But yeah, like, if you, if you chance to come over to the side

of the river, um, definitely.

It's just like, you know, really feel the, the presence of this

big immigrant population here.

It's just very, it's very vibrant.

So, yeah.

I mean, I can talk for the entire day.

Erin: Well, these are great tips.

My partner and I live right on the edge of Koreatown in Toronto, and my partner

Lucas is a huge fan of Korean food.

Me too!

We haven't, he has not been to New York City, and this is something

that, it's my goal to get Lucas to New York City, because I've been a couple

times, and I just know he will love it.

So my goal is to get there, and we will go out for Korean food.

Vincie Ho: Please definitely let me know.

I would love to meet her.

Yes!

I would love to.

Yes, let's do that.

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show.

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Curious Tourism, the Responsible Travel Podcast, is written and hosted by me,

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