Erin: When I traveled to Asia for the first time, one of the things

I looked forward to most was the chance to see elephants in the wild.

From chatting with other travelers, this desire to see wildlife is super common.

There's something really special about seeing animals that you've

never encountered before in real life.

Wildlife is a big part of tourism, but there are many different ways

that wildlife and tourism intersect.

One of those ways is zoos.

Zoos are found all over the world and, well, they're controversial.

Some people argue that animals in zoos suffer physically and

mentally by being enclosed, but on the flip side, zoos can support

conservation and they make learning about wildlife much more accessible.

Today on Curious Tourism, the Responsible Travel Podcast.

We're going to get the scoop on Zeus.

Is it ethical to visit a zoo at all?

And how do you know which zoos are worth visiting?

Here to answer our burning questions is Stacia Locke.

She is a travel blogger and wildlife tourism podcaster at Humane Nature

Podcast, where she discusses The nitty gritty of animal tourism worldwide.

Kattie: Is this the first time that you've listened to Curious Tourism,

the responsible travel podcast?

If so, make sure that you've hit the follow button right now on

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, because there

is plenty more to come this season.

Erin: If you want to get in touch with us, you can find us on

Instagram at Curious Tourism Pod.

You can DM us or email us anytime.

All of our contact info is in the episode description.

Kattie: All right, Erin, I think it's time we talk about airplanes and more than

just pilots, but the airline industry.

I was going to say,

Erin: we talked about airplanes like two

Kattie: episodes ago.

No.

Things are going down with airplanes and I am starting to question how reliable

they're going to be in the future.

So let me just give you the first part of this.

So an article recently came out and here's, here's the, the headline

because the headline just gives you everything you need to know.

So the FAA in the United States has ordered an emergency meeting

to address near collisions.

Basically, there has been, to an emergency level of an extent, planes

have nearly been crashing into each other over airports in the United States.

Almost 2, 000 collisions happened last year, which is so scary to think about.

And they're chalking this up to the fact that there are is an understaffing

of, uh, air traffic controllers.

That means a lot of air traffic controllers that exist out there

right now are also overworked, so they're too tired, and they're

getting confused and making mistakes.

So, that is one of the first issues of airplanes right now.

So what are your thoughts?

What do you think?

Were you ever scared to go on an airplane?

And are you now?

Erin: It's just like, Because logically I know, because everyone's

read the stats, like every time you get into a car, it's much more of a

risk than getting into an airplane.

I know this logically, but just planes, they feel unnatural.

It's just unnatural to go up in the air like

Kattie: that.

I usually feel pretty safe on planes, but like every flight I

take, I'm going to have at least a two minute existential crisis of

thinking like I am in a tube in the

Erin: sky.

I'm going to admit something.

It's always when I'm hungover on a plane that my brain goes to

Kattie: bad places.

It's the anxiety, man.

The anxiety, it'll take you down.

It will.

And sometimes the plane.

No kidding.

We know from Joy, we know from Joy that pilots are very, very healthy people.

Erin: Can Joy just, like, fly every plane that I ever take for the rest of my life?

Well,

Kattie: what we need is Joy also doing the air traffic control because

that is what seems to be the problem.

Erin: Okay.

Not to get, like, nitpicky about this, but I think, like, the key phrase here

is there were almost 2, 000 collisions.

Yes.

Kattie: So there weren't any.

And technically they're called runway incursions.

This is the formal term for it.

Erin: Okay.

That makes me feel better.

It didn't happen.

It almost happened.

But there

were

Kattie: 46 runway incursions in the month of July this year alone.

So, near, near

Erin: crashes.

Luckily, I don't fly in America very often.

I'm just going to assume that it's safer in Canada.

You're just

Kattie: chalking this up to U.

S.

flights.

Erin: I have too much generalized anxiety to think about this.

Kattie: It's true.

I'm so sorry to do this to you.

This is the FAA said the U.

S.

aviation system is the safest in the world, but one close call is too many.

Which?

Agree.

Agree.

Fully

Erin: agree.

Listen, it always comes down to the same thing.

Workers rights.

These workers deserve more rights they deserve.

Better working conditions.

It's all top down.

It's all top down.

Yep, I

Kattie: said it last time on the pod.

Capitalism, we'll get you every time.

This is secretly an anti capitalist podcast.

It's a secret.

I don't think it's a secret.

Okay, let me get into the other airline issues that are happening right now.

There's more.

So basically, also, we know that these massive wildfires have been

happening in, um, Hawaii recently.

And of course, locals are telling people not to show up.

But I saw a TikTok video.

That was a flight that was on its way to Hawaii and they made an announcement

over it saying that like once you arrive things are in pretty dire conditions,

like you're gonna need to find shelter, like things are pretty intense because

we're using our resources for locals, all of that stuff, and a bunch of

people got up and walked off the plane.

Hold

Erin: up.

So this was like before the flight took off.

So basically people had the choice to say, okay, like I'm going to go

anyways, or I'm going to get off the plane and like not go on my trip.

Kattie: Yes.

So they kind of gave everybody a warning.

A bunch of people got up and walked.

The guy that took the video was a guy who was staying and he was sort of

mocking all the people that were leaving, which, you know, I'm pretty sure you

and I, our firm beliefs are there.

Yeah.

Get off the plane.

Erin: I mean, listen, to be honest, you wouldn't catch me on a plane

to Hawaii anyways, because Hawaii has been asking people not to come.

At least for a year now, like, yeah.

Kattie: But then, okay, so then the other part of this is that, here's another

headline from Travel Pulse, Airlines issue travel waivers ahead of Hurricane Hillary.

So, Southwest Airlines has issued travel waivers for people who are getting on

flights to basically say, like, we're cool and we're not going to sue the

company if we fly through a hurricane.

So, basically, all of these things, flying into wildfires, flying into

hurricanes, it's just making me feel like airlines may no longer be the safest

form of travel and or that reliable.

So, I don't know, what are your thoughts?

Climate change, it's happening, the world is on fire, hurricanes, all of that stuff.

Okay,

Erin: there's a lot to unpack here.

Okay, I'll start by saying, first, the safety thing.

I don't think, like, an airline would fly purposefully through a hurricane.

You don't?

No, I don't think

Kattie: so.

I don't think so either.

I think they would definitely take a different route.

But those air traffic controllers, you never know, maybe there wasn't

enough people on the ground to tell them to take a different route.

You

Erin: never know.

Okay, all I'm getting at is I think like safety is like,

like, the least of our worries.

Because I actually read an article recently about this, I'd have to find

it back, but it was just commenting on how climate change really is.

going to impact flying, because as we've seen, like, this summer in North

America, like, we have had burning wildfires in Northern Canada now,

like, basically the entire summer.

And that has impacted flight patterns.

So yeah, I think like In the coming decades, like, this will just become

more and more and more of a problem and I think the biggest impact it'll have

is probably that we'll just see like flying becoming less and less reliable

because like, if you're meant to fly to BC and a forest fire begins and

they have to change the flight route or they can't land at the airport, your

flights will be delayed or canceled.

We'll probably mostly see that.

That's what this article was arguing.

Another interesting angle, though, is like, I wonder what this

means for like, travel insurance.

Like, will insurance cover, like, for trips, like, when there is some

sort of natural disaster that impacts your ability to travel somewhere?

This

Kattie: is what I'm wondering, too.

I'm like, what about cancellation fees and stuff like that.

So for this hurricane story, airlines are waiving the change

fees and fare differences for travelers who are scheduled to fly.

So obviously this means that they're being much more accommodating for

people who are like, yeah, I don't really feel like flying through

a hurricane, which I like to see.

But I'm wondering if this is going to be a thing in the future, because maybe this

is just going to be much more common.

It's sort of like fly at your own risk.

Erin: Well, and I think it actually goes beyond that because honestly,

like even so, for example, as you know, I'm going to BC this fall.

One of the reasons we decided not to go in the summer, which is like, nicer

weather is because it seemed risky because every year for the last three

years, my brother who lives out there has gone through heat domes and also fires.

And so it, I feel like there's a shift in Canada where people are saying,

okay, like summer isn't the best time to go to BC anymore because there's a

risk of these like natural disasters.

And that's literally why we were like, okay, we'll go in the fall.

Like seems like a safer bet.

I think it's going to change.

Like, people's travel patterns, honestly.

Totally.

Kattie: I'm even thinking about it for my trip to the East Coast, which at time

of recording, this episode will be out already once I've already come back.

So we will see what happens.

But, um, last year, just around September, there was a

massive hurricane on that side.

And that's when I'm going is going to be in in September.

So I've been kind of a little bit nervous about that over the last, like,

couple of months being like, man, it is.

technically hurricane season.

I don't know if it was smart for us to go, but so far I haven't heard

too much about anything happening and I'm leaving in eight days.

So, so far so good, but you know, I don't know.

It's, it's totally gonna change the way people plan their trips for sure.

Yeah.

Same with the heat wave in Europe.

There was a massive heat wave, what, two years ago,

Erin: last year?

There was one this year, and I actually saw a whole Reddit thread

in the travel subreddit about this.

This person arguing, like, summer is no longer the best time to go to Europe

because Europe can't cope with the heat.

This is the thing.

I think a lot of people, like, don't think of heat as, like,

a very disruptive or dangerous.

natural disasters.

Some people might not even think of it as a natural disaster, but like,

actually like high temperatures, like kill a lot of people.

Like it's extremely dangerous and it really will impact your trip.

Like the subreddit thread, this guy was just saying it completely ruined the trip.

Like they couldn't do things because it was too hot to safely go outside.

And this is becoming like a annual thing in Europe.

So I actually think we might see like seasonality for Some places around the

world change, like I think more and more people are starting to view September

October as the best time to go to Europe because it's still really warm, but

you don't have a risk of a heat dome.

Just like it's changing for B.

C.

Climate change.

Climate

Kattie: change, man.

Yeah.

Great time.

I've been trying to think of ways to make our, like the things we talk about

a little bit more exciting, but like...

It's difficult these days, you know, it's really difficult.

Luckily, our discussion about zoos is actually an upbeat one

and a lot of fun, and it made me really hopeful for animal tourism.

So I think we should just get into it.

Yeah, let's do it.

Erin: Stacia, tell me about your love of animals.

I'm sure that you, like many of us, fell in love with them

as a child, but you grew up.

And made a career out of it, whereas I just grew up and became a cat lady.

I mean,

Stacia: I'm also a cat lady.

He's laying right next to me, um, just chilling out and, uh, people who are

on, like, follow me on Twitter and Instagram and everything, they see

him, like, every Saturday for Caturday.

I'm like, here's my cat!

Erin: What's your cat's

Stacia: name?

His name is Loki.

He's a, he's a big boy.

So, you know, my parents had like their test baby in the form

of a puppy before I came along.

And so I grew up with a dog.

I had like different pets and everything growing up.

But when I was in, I think the sixth grade, we had an

outdoor cat who became pregnant.

And I did all this like online research as a sixth grader.

And so when she started to give birth, I was, like, with her, and she had

a baby that was, like, stillborn and breached, and she couldn't pass on her

own, and because I had done all this, like, online research, I was, like,

oh, I know what to do, and I was, like, I wrote, like, I don't know, sixth

grade, but I helped guide this, like, stillborn kitten out, um, to help my cat.

And I was so proud of myself, and I went in to school the next day and

told everybody what I did, and they were like, Stacia, that's the most

disgusting thing I've ever heard.

And they were like, you should be a vet, and I was like, well, okay.

I worked with animals all through high school, uh, I was, like, the head, like,

caretaker for the animals at, like, a local pet, like, family owned pet

store, and I worked in a horse stables in high school, and I worked at a zoo

for a while, uh, and then I got my Bye.

job as a vet tech down in, um, Florida, where I was going to school, and I

was originally going to go to vet school, but ultimately, uh, decided to

leave vet med because I just decided it wasn't really for me anymore, but

I kind of transitioned into what I'm doing now, which is educating people

on animal and wildlife tourism, PETA.

vibe to things that aren't really scientifically

accurate or any of that stuff.

Erin: That's amazing.

What a, what an awesome pass into the work you're doing now.

I love vet techs.

Whenever I go to the vet with my cat, I just like have the best time with them

because they're always the sweetest people and they treat like my cat so well.

It's They all know her name.

Yeah, Tex are some of

Stacia: the best people I've ever met.

They really are.

Erin: So I know you had a life changing veterinary internship

in Chiang Mai in Thailand.

Could you tell us a bit about that trip and what made it

have such a big impact on you?

Stacia: Yeah.

So, uh, in college, my...

So my school was very weird.

We actually didn't have class all through January and every student had to do an

independent study project all through January rather than going to class.

And that was just kind of how the college was set up.

So I think it was my Sophomore or junior year of college, I decided

for my independent study project, I was going to go abroad and do this

veterinary internship in Chiang Mai, working with, it was a week with dogs

in like a, it was like a shelter where they took dogs off the street because

there's a really big problem with that, give them medical care, spay, neuter,

and try to adopt them out, or they would live there for the rest of their

lives, and then a week on an elephant.

Rescue, working with not just elephants, but they had like dogs,

cats, water buffalo, there was a goat, some like mini horses and stuff,

but mostly with the elephants there.

It was a cool place.

When I got there, they really Hammerton on educating their visitors on why

we don't ride elephants, why we don't go to circuses and shows that

have elephants performing, and why.

Like the big reason was why, like how this impacts them biologically, like the way

that Their backs are shaped, for example, for elephant riding, or conservationally,

or all this other stuff, how the tourism factor is impacting elephants, especially

in Thailand, because that's where a lot of them live, and that's where elephant

tourism is really, really big, but Around the rest of the world as well.

And this was at the Elephant Nature Park, who's run by a Incredible woman named

Lek Chailert, which I actually did a kind of wildlife warrior segment on her

in my own podcast she is Trailblazing and completely changing elephant tourism

and educating people all over Thailand and the rest of Southeast Asia so after

that That was really my first big trip abroad, too, so one, I fell in love with

travel, and two, I really fell in love with the idea of educating people in a

scientific way on how to treat animals better within the tourism vector rather

than, like, going to vet school, so I kind of started to lean away from that

and more towards the tourism aspect of

Erin: it.

That's awesome.

I, people often ask, especially because we bring this topic up a lot on our

platforms, they'll ask like, where's a good place to go to see elephants?

Because of course, like anyone traveling in Southeast Asia

wants to have this experience.

And Elephant Nature Park is the one I always tell people because that's like

definitely the most tried and true one that I've, I've read about personally.

One thing that I actually was reading about recently is about how I think it's

like half of elephants in Thailand now are domesticated and there's only a couple

thousand left that are wild in Thailand.

Do you know if there's any, um, experiences in Thailand where you can

go and like observe wild elephants?

I don't remember coming across this when I was traveling there.

Stacia: There are there.

I don't remember the names of them, but there are some like national parks where

there are like they're kind of protected areas for wild elephants, kind of like

when you go on African safaris and stuff.

And there are wild elephants there, but it is very difficult to see.

An elephant in the wild, shockingly, like they are massive, but like they

are so good at hiding and navigating through the forest to the point

where we never really see them.

Yeah.

And they also are so smart.

They always know where the people like to hang out.

And so they tend to avoid those areas.

So it's very difficult to see wild elephant, but I do kind of want to point

out real quick that, um, Just because an elephant is in captivity doesn't

mean it's domesticated, so domestication happens over like thousands of years,

how we get dogs and cats, but these are, so like training and domestication are

different, so an elephant who has been trained to perform or has been living

with people for its entire life isn't is still technically a wild animal.

So even though it is in captivity, so

Erin: yeah, because domestication is more so that the animal has become

like part of human life, like in the way that dogs and cats have.

Stacia: Yeah.

Domestication occurs through selective breeding over like multiple generations.

And there are, I think I read a study that they Are in the beginning stages

of domestication for some elephants because they have been in captivity

for so long and then they get bred and then their babies stay in the

same family and then their babies could say the same in the same family.

It just hasn't been long enough and domestication like like dogs and wolves.

There is a distinct difference between The domesticated animal and then

their wild counterpart and they just haven't reached that yet with the with

the elephants in the process of that.

Yeah, but sorry, it's just a little tangent.

Erin: No, that was a great tangent and really important point.

Um, now I just need to tangent about how when I was in Munnar, India,

which is a hill station in southern India, I had the rare experience of

seeing wild elephants like actually in the wild and it was incredible.

Stacia: Oh, that's amazing.

I want to see wild elephants so bad.

And I know it's a little easier in Africa.

You're so lucky that you got to see a wild Asian elephant.

Erin: Like we were on this track and and our guide kept like pointing out

like elephant tracks and he was like, yeah, like we're gonna see lots of

these tracks and we'll see lots of their poo, but we're not gonna see them.

And we just like completely lucked out.

Um, so back in 2019, We talked on the show with Natasha Daly, I think it's

episode 30, so it's quite a ways back now, but we chatted with her about

the industry around animal tourism.

We focused mostly in that discussion on elephant sanctuaries and we framed those

as being animal tourism experiences.

So I know you've written about how there's a distinction between

animal tourism and wildlife tourism.

Could you explain why they're different and why it's so

important to separate them?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stacia: So, The difference isn't as big as most people think.

People kind of assume that animal tourism is a negative thing and

wildlife tourism is a positive thing.

I like to kind of explain to it as it's all animal tourism.

Animal tourism is basically just tourism that involves animals in general.

People go travel somewhere in order to see animals.

So that could be bird watching in your local park, that could be going

to an African safari, that could be riding elephants in Thailand.

But wildlife tourism is a little more niche where you're going specifically

to see wildlife versus going to like a zoo or going to like an animal

cafe in Tokyo, things like that.

So, Yeah, wildlife tourism is just a little more niche where you're going to

see an animal in their natural habitat and there are both ethical and unethical

ways to do both of them, but in general, wildlife tourism does tend to be a little

bit more ethical because they are in their natural Habitats rather than in

captivity because that's when you can fall into the trap of like roadside zoos

and fake Rescues and and things like that are doing a lot of these unethical

practices that are actively harming the animals but animal tourism where they

are in captivity can be ethical as well.

Erin: Okay, that makes sense.

I've noticed, especially online, that there's growing awareness

about animal and wildlife tourism, especially in the last few years.

And like, actually, like, I've chatted with my parents about

this because they, they backpacked around the world in the 80s.

And they have told me they were like, it was completely different.

They were like, when you were in India, like riding an elephant was

a given, like everyone did that.

And no one questioned it.

Whereas today like there's lots more discussion around it.

I see like it talked about on social platforms quite a lot now,

but I'm noticing that a lot of the discussions are focused around the

harm of animal and wildlife tourism.

And I know from chatting with Natasha Daly and also with James Mwenda,

who's a conservationist in Kenya and came on the podcast, I think two

seasons ago, I can't remember now.

But anyways, chatting with both of them, they did like emphasize

that this type of tourism does have the potential to do good as well.

So I was hoping you could talk a bit about like what some of those

positive impacts are when it comes to both animal and wildlife tourism.

Stacia: Yeah, so it's kind of a fine line that you have to walk with these things.

The biggest thing is that these positive wildlife and animal tourism

experiences do bring in money.

Like, that's the biggest issue with a lot of, you know, conservation

research, all of that good stuff.

Ethical animal tourism and wildlife tourism will bring in

money to protect habitats from habitat loss or habitat loss.

breeding programs for endangered species or protecting them from

poachers like hiring people like guards and things around like the

critically endangered animals in Africa.

All that stuff is money derived basically directly from either donations or

animal tourism and most of it is from animal tourism and It also provides a

lot of it really important education.

There are a lot of animal species out there that people don't

really even think about that are really struggling to survive.

And when people participate in these experiences that involve a lot of

really good education, then they know they know that animal exists, they know

what's harming them, and they can tell other people and spread that they can.

Be more inclined to donate money and time later on.

There have been studies that show that people are much more likely

like 80 percent or something more likely to donate money or volunteer

for animal species or conservation.

If they have a direct experience with that animal in the past, so

that could be seeing them in a zoo and being educated that way,

seeing them while out as a tourist.

So.

It's very important just to get these images of the animals out there and

then to raise as much money as possible.

And a lot of these animal tourism destinations also bring in a lot of

money for the local communities as well.

And, which is very, very important, especially in these rural areas.

But you do have to walk that fine line between bringing in Just enough

tourists to bring in that money and the education and then bringing in so many

tourists that you get a lot of hotels and restaurants popping up and there's

a lot of pollution from trash, but also the increase in travel to the area.

So it's a it's a very fine line, but it can bring a lot of really good benefits.

Erin: I mean, Right now, my partner and I are researching going on

a safari in Eastern Africa, and one of the things that's come up

is, like, how expensive it is.

And we were just reading, like, the reason these experiences are expensive

is because they're trying to avoid going into, like, the harmful territories.

So, by charging a lot of money, like, it kind of controls how many people

can come, because only so many people will be willing to spend the money.

And then they can still derive, like, the benefits of funding

without having to bring.

a huge volume of people in.

Stacia: Right, and that's awesome, but that's also how a lot of

these unethical destinations pop up because they will almost like

copy the other company's website.

And charge, like, half as much to lure people in and

take their money, which sucks!

Because these places, like, charging more for these ethical experiences is

totally valid because they've got people to pay, they've got animals to protect,

and they've got habitat to protect.

But people will see the potential of earning money and stealing the

tourists away, and they've become so good with advertising and everything

that most people just don't get.

Realize that they're going to about like I've even like knowing all this stuff

and I've studied this at school And I have like a degree in it I still find

myself in some places that leave me feeling kind of gross after and I will

just try to let as many people Know as possible, but they've gotten so good at

it And you really have to know your stuff to to be able to weed through the bad.

Erin: I know okay I'm gonna just say I had an experience in Florida actually

that was like this where it was manatee viewing is like a big thing in Florida.

I researched to find the most responsible manatee viewing experience and the

things I saw happen on that tour like my alarm bells were going off the

entire time and I was so disappointed because we had paid extra money to go

with this company that like Everyone claimed was the most responsible,

and still, like, this was happening.

It's, it's so hard, like, it feels impossible sometimes.

Stacia: Yeah, something I like to say basically every episode on

my show is don't be that asshole.

Like, don't be that asshole who slams other people if they just didn't know.

If someone doesn't know that riding elephants is bad, and then they go

and do it, don't be a jerk to them.

And just.

Let them know, educate them, and then they won't do it again.

But also don't be that asshole who, when you know something is bad, and then you

do it anyway for like, the pictures, or because it's cheaper, or just to see

that animal because you don't want to be bothered to do the more difficult

research to go for a more ethical option.

So, yeah.

I was just gonna say,

Kattie: Erin, did you leave a review so people know about your bad vibes?

Because that's one thing we did learn from Natasha Daly.

Erin: Yes, I definitely left a review.

Not a mean review, just like a

Kattie: heads up.

An informative review.

Stacia: Yeah.

That's what I always suggest too, is to contact any authorities that you can

that may have a say in what's going on.

Leave reviews on every possible platform you can that's advertising this.

Experience and then word of mouth.

Just letting people know if people stop going, the hope is that they'll

go out of business and be replaced by something more ethical or they'll

change their practices and themselves become a, a better place to visit.

Erin: Okay, so Stacia, we want to have, you want to talk about

a very specific type of animal tourism, and that is zoos and.

We're not going to just talk about zoos, we're going to talk about roadside zoos.

Could you explain what a zoo is and what a roadside animal

attraction or roadside zoo is?

What are the major differences between them and is one better than the other?

I think I know what you're going to say, but let's lay it out so

everyone is on the same page.

Stacia: Yeah, so the big difference is there are AZA accredited zoos, and then

there are like roadside zoo attractions.

So the AZA stands for the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and it's

mostly in the United States, but it's kind of the governing body of

the good zoos in the country and in some other countries as well where

they have all these qualifications that they need to meet in order to

earn and keep their accreditation.

And that's not to say that every single zoo that's not AZA

accredited is a roadside zoo.

Like some of them are actively trying to be accredited.

There's a lot of them out there.

It takes like a minimum of six months to gain that accreditation.

after you have all of the qualifications and there's a very lengthy list.

It's a very prestigious thing for zoos and aquariums to earn.

And as a general rule, if a zoo has that AZA accreditation,

they're a great place to visit.

I have visited some that maybe still had a couple of exhibits that were

a little questionable, but overall they were doing really amazing work.

And I made some notes.

So.

Yeah, AZA accredited zoos, there's a huge board, the AZA board, that is

full of biologists, conservationists, veterinarians, and animal behaviorists,

animal nutritionists, all these people who are expert in their fields, and they

are constantly changing and updating what is needed for these zoos to...

Be good.

And if you look at one zoo, like 10, 15, 20 years ago, they may have been

doing things that at the time we didn't really know were wrong or unethical.

But as the AZA updates.

With all the research that they're doing, all of their zoos under the

accreditation are required to apply those updates within a few years, I believe,

so I do have a list of the things that they look for the inspectors look for

before they can be accredited, and they are also a inspected every few years in

order to maintain that accreditation.

So they can't just earn it and then like let things fall to pieces afterwards.

So they need to have proper living environments for all the animals and

enrichment for all the animals, good social groupings, updated animal health

and nutrition based on the current science, a good veterinary program within

the zoo, so not outsourcing any of it.

Involvement in conservation and research programs, a zoo education

program, up to date zoo safety and security, guest services and

facilities, and good quality zoo staff.

Which is why I have applied so many times to be a zookeeper at ACA Zoos and

haven't even gotten an interview because it's so competitive and they are so...

strict on the people that they let in.

Another big distinction between an AZA zoo and a roadside zoo is a

roadside zoo is meant to earn money.

They, that's their, their goal is to earn money while an AZA zoo is a non profit.

So the money that you pay for the tickets goes directly to paying

the zookeepers or for the concert.

Only 10 percent of the zoos in the United States at least are AZA accredited.

And a lot of them also participate in breeding programs for endangered species.

So they will do the breeding programs either to help supply other AZA zoos with

that animal or to release that animal into the wild or maybe to improve the genetic

diversity of that animal so god forbid there was like a disease outbreak they

wouldn't all be wiped out because of it.

So A lot of roadside zoos will claim that they donate money to conservation, or

they do research, or all these things, but they have no data to really back it up.

So, on AZA websites, if you...

They'll always have a tab about their conservation and outreach programs and

they will have data and very specific things like what they're doing and

why they're doing it and who's work, who they're working with and how to

get involved and be a volunteer and all that, whereas a roadside zoos.

if they have that tab at all, it'll be like, oh, we're giving money to

conservation, like tiger conservation or elephant conservation, but

they don't say where it's going.

They don't say how much they don't, there's no data to back it up.

So you can't read, you can't believe everything you read

on the internet, right?

You can't just believe them that they're donating the money.

So, uh, yeah, those are the big differences.

EZA zoos are extremely strict and Overall, really, really great places, and you know

the By paying to go there, your money is going to be going towards conservation.

And I do have a number here, too.

Only 10 percent of the zoos in the United States, at least, are AZA accredited.

Whoa.

Yeah, there are 238 accredited AZA zoos, which seems like a lot,

but there's like over 2, 000.

zoos around the country, uh, so, and some of them are actively trying to be

accredited, and they are decent places to go, but it's hard to distinguish them

between the roadside zoos if they don't have that AZA seal under their name.

Yeah,

Erin: and I googled this while we were chatting.

It is a U.

S.

accreditation, but in Canada we have C AZA, which is the same, the same

accreditation just for Canadian zoos.

Stacia: Yeah, and the AZA, there are a handful of AZA accredited zoos in

other countries, like outside of Canada, more like in countries that don't

have their own accreditation programs.

Like I think there's one in Belize or something, but Uh, there are

very, very, very few of them.

I think there's like between three and five, uh, in other

countries and I think most of them are in Central or Latin America.

So

Erin: I have to admit I've had like a bit of an aversion to going to

zoos like in general in life because I think it's hard because I think a

lot of people have this assumption that like all zoos are bad, like no

matter what, just like don't support.

the zoo industry.

And so it's interesting to hear that, like, there are actual positive benefits,

as long as there's a governing body making sure that those, like, positive

benefits are actually being focused

Stacia: on.

And I totally get the feeling of, like, not wanting to see animals in captivity

and all that, but we have to remember not to anthropomorphize wildlife, uh, which

means putting our own human feelings and how we would feel in certain situations.

in the minds of these animals.

So, a lot of these animals thrive in, like, a zoo setting, especially when

they're given a lot of enrichment, they're given a naturalistic place

to live, they're given the perfect Nutrition, they're given mates,

they're given everything that they want, everything that they would want

in the wild, as well as ample space that they would need to be happy.

And to me, it's no different than having like an indoor cat that you

like supply all their needs for them.

You know, they're happy.

Yeah.

And some, some species don't do well in zoos yet, because there's still some

research going on on, um, maybe why they become anxious or don't want to breed or.

You know, different things, but the vast majority, there's been so much research

into the specific behavior of these animals, um, like their psyche and the

very specific requirements that they need and what they would receive in the

wild, and then the zoos supply that.

So, just because us as humans wouldn't want to be kind of stuck

in one general area, a lot of these animals, they're natural.

area that they would live in the wild is that size or smaller than the exhibit.

So nothing has really changed other than them receiving good care

and being monitored very closely.

Erin: Yeah, sometimes my partner is like, I think Crumpet needs to go

outside and like run free and feel what it's like to run full tilt.

And I'm like, she does not.

She's like completely happy.

Like she is living her best

Stacia: life.

That's another thing I could just go on a rant about is, uh, outdoor cats.

Same.

Erin: Oh, Katie knows.

And Katie also knows I'm a hardcore, like, Not for outdoor cats like

they should just know there

Kattie: are so many outdoor cats in my neighborhood And I

Erin: am not it's and it's bad for everyone.

It's bad for the cat and it's bad for like the ecology Outdoors.

Stacia: Yeah, there have been hundreds of small mammal and bird species that have

gone extinct or are close to extinction because of outdoor cats And it's so bad.

And an outdoor domestic cat lives an average, I think, of like

eight years less than indoor cats.

And then they're usually killed very traumatically.

It's just not, I take Loki outside on like leashed walks.

So your cat can go outside.

Like you can have like a little, uh, like a cat patio where they can experience

like outside or like an enclosed area.

Uh, so they can still kind of like lay in the sun and in the grass, but they

can't like kill a bunch of birds or meat when they get back next door, you know.

Erin: So how, okay, maybe this is obvious because like I would Google it, but what

is the best way for people to find out?

If a zoo is AZA accredited or to find a list of accredited zoos because

they'd like to go and support one.

Right,

Stacia: so a zoo will have a like a seal or a banner that

says that they're AZA accredited.

Uh, if you are a little nervous about looking for that or if you

don't know what it looks like, if you go to the AZA website, they do

actually have a like a map of the country and of the United States.

I know you guys are in Canada and You can type in your zip code or you can

search state by state to find which AZA zoos are located around there.

So if you don't know if if the zoo near your city is accredited, you

can literally just look up your zip code and it'll tell you which zoos

near you are actually accredited.

Are

Erin: fake AZA zoos something?

We need to be worried about.

Stacia: I have not seen any like roadside zoos claiming to be AZA accredited.

They will use a lot of the same wording like concert like how they're conservation

based and they're donating money and but they It's, it's highly illegal to

use that AZA banner, and I'm sure it does happen, but I think they get shut

down pretty quickly by the AZA, or they get sued or something, and since

it's such a big, I don't want to call it a corporation, but a big governing

body, that I think these smaller, like, roadside zoos stay away from that,

and instead they use, like, like the kind of advertising, you And wording

to try to lure tourists in rather than

Erin: yeah, kind of like how in Asia, there will be like sanctuaries that

may not actually be sanctuaries.

Stacia: The biggest thing to look for in roadside zoos and the rescues or

rehabilitation or whatever they're calling themselves is You shouldn't be

going anywhere that allows you to touch the animal directly not being able to

feed them directly unless you're That one's a little harder because some

easy azus do allow you to feed like the giraffes and stuff While being

monitored by zookeepers and they're giving you education on the giraffe, but

it's at a very specific time each day.

It's their natural diet.

But if they just allow you to like buy food and feed them to the animals,

it's generally not a great thing.

And Uh, rescues, like, ethical rescues and rehab programs that are

under this association do not breed.

They will not breed their animals.

That is not what they're meant to do.

They're there to rescue these animals and give them homes after they've...

gone through something that keeps them from being released into the wild.

Yeah.

So zoos, um, AZA zoos do have breeding programs, but they're conservation based.

But roadside zoos like Tiger King, um, is probably the most famous one, do

breed their animals so that they have the cubs, and then they use the cubs to

lure in the tourists, and they allow them to bottle feed them and pose with them

for pictures, and it kind of keeps...

Stalking their, their park.

So that's just, if you see that happening, that's a place that

you want to avoid for sure.

Erin: We obviously have to talk about Tiger King.

I'm sure when this show was released, um, you had a field day online.

But just for people who may not know, at the start of the

pandemic, It was March 2020.

Everyone was at home.

Netflix dropped a show called Tiger King, and it had a literal

grip on North American viewers.

According to the measurement company Nielsen, the show had

roughly 34 million unique viewers.

who watched the series in the first 10 days of its release, which is wild.

It brought roadside animal attractions and zoos to the public eye in a massive way.

It was pretty shocking to me, actually, because like, I don't know that

I've seen roadside zoos like that.

At least personally in Canada, it seems to be like a very American,

maybe Southern American thing.

It's,

Stacia: it's very much an American thing.

They do exist, I don't know about Canada, but they are all over, uh,

Southeast Asia too, especially.

Erin: I think what it is, I actually think I've read about this before.

I think Canada has different laws and restrictions around like what,

quote unquote, exotic animals can be brought into the country.

And so maybe that's why we don't see as much of it here.

But yeah, watching the show myself, like I felt that there were some really

troubling displays of animal abuse.

Um, but interestingly, the show like doesn't focus that much on that aspect.

Like it's definitely part of the narrative, but it's not the focus.

of the show.

They focus more on these like characters Joe Exotic and his legal battles and

of course the intriguing Carole Baskin.

I do think this was a huge missed opportunity for them to talk about a

very important issue but instead they went down the road of sensationalism

because that is what makes money.

Anyways, my main takeaway from it was that these roadside zoos should be avoided.

Stacia: Yeah, 100 percent they should be avoided.

And I actually didn't watch Tiger King because I knew it

was going to make me so mad.

And I already knew the Fight between Joe Exotic and Carole Baskin because I was

living in Sarasota, Florida at the time Which is about an hour away from Carole

Baskin's Park And I yeah, one of my vet tech friends did an internship there So

she personally knew Carole Baskin and when she got yeah, I know when she got

back from that She was telling me all Everything, all the dirty details about

Joe Exotic and Carole Boston, because it was actively going on, and this was

like, a few years before Tiger King came out, so I was like, Oh my god,

so I already knew the story, or the main story, and I just knew I didn't

really want to see the rest of it, so, um, I just didn't, I didn't watch it,

but I know generally what it's about.

But, uh, side note, did you guys hear that they actually

found Carole Baskin's husband?

Yes!

I did hear this!

Kattie: He was, like, somewhere with his, like, a mistress or

Stacia: something like that.

He literally left.

He was with his mistress in Costa Rica, which is literally what Carole has

been saying from day one that he took

Erin: his, like, private plane.

People don't believe women.

I know.

How

Stacia: many times do we have to go through this?

I mean, granted, Carole Baskin just kinda, it has one of those personalities that

you just kinda question everything that

Erin: she says.

I will say, like, watching the show myself.

I think there was like an undertone of like her having better motivation

in like running her park than what you see from Joe Exotic.

Right.

Does that

Stacia: mean anything?

Yeah, her heart is definitely in the right place.

I just don't know from I can't recommend it personally unless

I've been there myself and had a because I do have I have a degree

in I don't know if I mention this.

I do have a degree in biopsychology and animal behavior.

I also did, um, a year long, uh, thesis project where I did my own independent

research on something that, like, I wasn't copying someone else's research.

I had to do my own on a topic.

And my thesis and a lot of my classes involved closely observing animal behavior

and then researching what their normal behavior should be and then Kind of

deciding like if they're under duress or not and sometimes it can be very subtle

So that's something that I always look for when I'm going new places even AZA zoos

I look for that and I have family down in Florida still so I may Give Carol basket a

visit the next time Please follow up with

us

Erin: So, I know you didn't watch the show, but I mean, I'm sure you

saw the impact online like many of us did, especially at that time

when we were all like in lockdown.

Do you have a sense of like what kind of impact the show may have

had on animal tourism in the U.

S.

or perceptions of animal tourism?

Do you think like it may have accidentally alerted people to like things to

avoid or what's your sense there?

I

Stacia: think the people who created the show did want to slip in that these

things are bad and that we shouldn't be participating in them, but because

they didn't dive deep enough into them, I think there was more of a negative

backlash against Zeus in general, which Isn't great, because again, ACA's user

are awesome, and they have saved dozens of species from the brink of extinction.

But, I think it also brought a lot of attention to, like, selfie

tourism, and there's a lot of tourism around lion and tiger cubs.

And, like, holding them and feeding them and all that stuff.

And, then just, like, the...

Weird culture in America of wealthy people collecting large exotic animals.

Like, it's a thing here, and it's very strange, and I don't understand it.

Erin: So, as we wrap up, I'd love to hear about some of your

favorite AZA accredited zoos.

I know you've written about Bush Gardens in Florida.

What is it that they're doing right, and are there any others

that you would like to shout

Stacia: out?

Yeah, so Bush Gardens is very unique because it's also a theme park, but

they, again, are a non profit, so all the money that they make goes back into

paying their employees, and they do a lot of really great conservation work,

and a lot of people don't know, and this may turn some people off, they are under

the same big company as SeaWorld, but uh, SeaWorld, so, thank you to Bush Gardens

does not have that, uh, bad history behind them and they do a lot of research

there because they are AZA accredited.

So they do that research, they do that conservation work, they have

like a stellar veterinary program.

And I think at this point they also have like a TV show where

they dive into like all the animals that live there and the vet.

I think it's a show specifically about the veterinarians that work there, so

they're really great, and I did notice when I was there, I've been there a few

times, I lived like 45 minutes away from it, they keep animals that have like very

sensitive hearing and, and are scared easily away from the rides, and they're

kind of in their own separate like zoo area, but then there are some animals that

are, I don't want to say interactive with the rides, but you can see them as you're

on the rides, which is just like totally unique and super fun, like, uh, I think

there's a roller coaster there called Cheetah Run, and it's over a giant cheetah

exhibit, so, and they're like totally unbothered by it, and they just Bye.

Bye.

They're cats so they mostly sleep all day, but you're like on this giant

roller coaster and you can see the cheetahs and it's just like really

fun and I think it's a unique way to provide that much needed education

about the animals that are there.

I currently live in Seattle and the Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle

is one of the absolute best zoos that I have ever visited.

It's amazing and I highly recommend that to anybody who's out here.

There is, if you're visiting, Seattle, there is something called like the City

Pass and I know some other major cities have it where you pay like a certain

amount of money and it comes with tickets to certain attractions throughout

the city and it saves you money and um, Woodland Park Zoo is one of them.

There's also the Seattle Aquarium, um, and so the AZA is

Association of Zoos and Aquariums.

So aquariums can be accredited as well.

And that aquarium is very small, like it's a lot smaller than people think because

they kind of expect it to be this massive.

Place, but it is one of the best Aquariums again that I've ever seen

like some of the most beautiful Exhibits a lot of really great education.

They have a whole area for marine mammals Especially the ones that live naturally

in the area So there's a lot of wildlife up here in Washington State and so they

have got like the sea lions the fur seals the otters like And it's awesome.

And they really focus more on Pacific Northwest wildlife, or sea life, and, and,

um, just, they, some, like, freshwater, uh, aquatic life as well, instead of doing

a lot of, like, like, fish from around the world kind of thing, because, like, every

aquarium kind of does that, and that's, like, their most unique thing, is they

really focus on, uh, Pacific Northwest.

But if you're looking for a really big, Aquarium to visit, like a really

big, really impressive aquarium.

The Ripley's Believe It or Not Aquarium in Gatlinburg, Tennessee

is a huge tourist attraction there.

It is AZA accredited.

And it is, I think, the biggest aquarium in the country, if not the world, but it

is It's huge and it's very impressive.

Erin: Well, I did some quick googling for Canadian alpaca pals.

The Toronto Zoo is accredited and we also have a Ripley's Aquarium here

in Toronto and it is also accredited so there's two that you can hit

in Toronto that are good choices.

And

Kattie: also, if you're, if you're near me, you can go to African

Lion Safari, which is also C A Z A accredited, accredited.

Awesome.

Stacia: I double checked that too.

Yeah.

I think there's also an, an accredited zoo in, uh, Vancouver,

like just north of where I am.

So I think, I think a buddy of mine used to work there before

moving down to, down to Washington.

So, um, I heard, I've heard good things about that one, but

I haven't visited personally.

Erin: Okay, so you're the first person we're chatting with who lives in Seattle,

and so I wanted to ask if you have some Seattle tips for us because Seattle is

high on my list of places to go in the U.

S.

that I haven't been yet.

Um, so yeah, give us some insider tips.

Stacia: I love it here.

We get a lot of like negative stereotypes about the weather here

especially, but it doesn't get that cold.

Um, like we rarely get snow and when it rains, it's usually like kind

of the misty, like overcast misty.

So it's like not hard enough to even really need an umbrella or anything.

So spring and fall are absolutely stunning.

The weather is perfect as far as times to come, but Pike Place Market,

definitely worth the hype, really fun.

I would also go to visit the Salmon Ladder because salmon is like a

big part of like the culture here because it's where they go to spawn.

The Salmon Ladder is literally like this, it looks like a ladder, like

a v shaped ladder that connects two bodies of water where the salmon go

to breed and then go back out to sea.

And the salmon actually like hop up.

The ladder and climb over the ladder to reach the two different sides and it's

super cool because salmon naturally will like hop up like waterfalls and stuff to

reach the freshwater and this is just a more like controlled way of doing it so

that they can ensure more of them are able to reach there and breed because

unfortunately salmon are disappearing from overfishing for the most part.

And, uh, so it's just a way to, to help them out a little bit, but

it's really, really cool to see.

It's mostly in, like, late summer through the fall, and, um, there'll be different

species of salmon depending on, uh, which time you go, but it's very, very cool.

Erin: So, Where can people find you if they want to learn

Stacia: more?

So, uh, you can find my podcast, it's called Humane Nature.

Like, spelled like human nature, but with the E, humane,

anywhere that you get podcasts.

But I also have a blog website that you can visit.

The podcast is more diving really deep into individual animal tourism activities.

And while I have a little bit of that on my blog as well, I do more of, like,

travel, so comparing AZA zoos, roadside zoos, or like, how to navigate animal

cafes in Tokyo, um, they're just a little shorter, and if you enjoy Reading

content as well, but then I also have like just general like travel articles

and you can follow me on Twitter Facebook Instagram and tick tock at

stumble safari, which is my blog's name

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show If you enjoyed this episode,

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change throughout the travel industry.

Curious tourism, the responsible travel podcast is written and hosted by me,

Aaron Hines, and it's produced and edited by Katie lore in Canada's Toronto area.

Our theme music is called night stars by Wolf Saga.

David R.

Maracle and the Chippewa Travelers.

If you want to reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.

I'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, stay curious.