Andy Malt 0:01 Setlist - the music business podcast from CMU. This week: The looming decision on Brixton Academy's future.

Welcome to setlist the music business podcast from CMU. I'm Andy Malt, with me is Chris Cooke. Hello, Chris.

Chris Cooke 0:20 Hello there.

Andy Malt 0:21 As ever, we're going to be taking a look back at some of the biggest and most interesting music industry news stories of the last week. A week when US collecting society ASCAP had some fun on social media posting, not particularly subtle digs at its rival BMI, in response to the reports that we spoke about on this show last week, that BMI is close to being acquired by a private equity outfit.

Chris Cooke 0:52 Yes, you may remember on last week's Setlist we discussed how last year BMI - one of the big songwriter collection societies in the US - became a for profit enterprise for the first time.

Meanwhile, more recently, there have been talks about a private equity firm buying it. And that was particularly newsworthy because a whole load of songwriter organisations in the US had sent a letter to the boss of BMI, asking some questions, understandable questions, what's going on with this profit margin you've introduced? How is it impacting on the Commission's you charge? On the royalties you process? If you sell to this private equity company who's going to get the money, the profits from that sale? What impact will it have on society?

So there was a whole lot of questions that the songwriter organisations had sent to BMI on last week's Setlist. We explained that so far, those questions hadn't been answered. Instead, BMI had issued some sort of vague reassurances. Everything's fine. It's all good for songwriters. As we record this, on the Thursday afternoon before it goes out on the Monday morning. We still don't have any answers from BMI to those questions. Although we did get a second statement, basically saying the same waffle about it's all fine. So that's where we are with the BMI story.

As I say, as we record also, no word on whether or not this private equity sale is going through. Maybe that will come through in next couple of days, we will see but yeah, BMI is biggest main rival in the US is ASCAP, which more like other collecting societies around the world like PRS in the UK, is a not for profit collecting society owned by its members. So it is not trying to get a profit margin. It's not considering selling itself to private equity. And ASCAP was trying to really get that message across on its social media platform. In the last week, posting a number of graphics making statements about how ASCAP is all for the songwriters, it's not sending out to private equity has to be said some of them were better than others, weren't they?

Andy Malt 2:56 Yeah, well, you know, you got to go ahead and hope, haven't you? There was “There is no I in ASCAPT, which I still can't work out if that works or not. I mean, there's an I in BMI. I don't know if that it makes much sense. It also said “private equity never wrote an iconic love song”. Although neither did ASCAP. So I don't know that that works either.

Chris Cooke 3:30 But given the ASCAP owners are technically songwriters, some of its owners did.

Unknown Speaker 3:37 I suppose. I suppose.

Chris Cooke 3:40 Turns out that every iconic love song that's ever been written in America was written by a BMI member. I'm assuming at least one ASCAP member has written a decent love song.

Andy Malt 3:51 I mean, maybe answering the previous question. Another one was “ASCAP writers: Who owns us? Who gets paid” You and you,” which is correct, but it's a little bit clunky and confusing. Yeah, ASCAP. We pay songwriters, not shareholders. That's pretty clear.

Chris Cooke 4:10 That's quite straightforward that one.

Andy Malt 4:12 “ASCAP, where royalties and values unite.”

Chris Cooke 4:19 I don't like that one. Not so into that one. I thought, “Creators first” - I mean, that is getting quite close to America first, isn't it? Let's ignore that - “Creators first. Not for profit. Not for sale.” I quite like that one. I think I think that's my favourite of all the ones they posted in the last week.

Andy Malt 4:39 Yeah, that's pretty clear that one and yeah, that covers everything about what's happening over at BMI. There was also, “We put our songwriters first in everything we do, always” and “Not for profit since 1914 and still going strong.”

Chris Cooke 4:58 I suppose this is in some ways one of the clearest digs at BMI because BMI are insisting that they are going for profit in order to be able to access investment to grow and enhance the organisation for the benefit of its members. So that's basically ASCAP saying we're still not for profit, we're doing fine. So that was a bit of a fun little thing that was going on in the music business in the last week, but it is not actually what we're here to talk about this week.

Andy Malt 5:27 No, later on, we'll be discussing Eminem’s battle with US presidential hopeful Vivec Ramaswamy. But first, the future of the Brixton Academy venue in London will be considered at a two day licencing hearing later this month. Councillors from Lambeth Council will consider whether live nation's Academy music group should be allowed to continue running the venue following last year's crowd crush incident in which two people died. The Night Time Industries Association has said that the upcoming meeting will be a critical moment for the venue adding that the Brixton Academy and AMG will require as much support as possible throughout this hearing.

Chris Cooke 6:10 So as you may remember, this crowd crash incident occurred during a sold out Asake a gig at the Brixton Academy last December. And in that instant concert goer, Rebecca Ikumelo, and Gaby Hutchinson, who was part of the security team at the venue that night, both died, and a third person remains in a serious condition in hospital even now. The venue has been closed ever since that incident, with London's Metropolitan Police recommending that Lambeth Council revoke AMGs licence to operate the building.

Earlier this year, officers from the London police force criticised the live music company's response to the crime crush and its proposals for safely reopening the venue adding that as a result of all of that they have lost confidence in the premises licence holder. For its part, AMG has issued some statements countering that criticism. It has insisted that throughout this process since last December, it has cooperated fully with both the Metropolitan Police and Lambeth Council, and that it presented detailed proposals to the council and to the police, which it believes will enable the venue to reopen safely moving forward.

Andy Malt 7:20 Lambeth Council confirmed late last month that the two day hearing was now set to take place on the 11th and 12th of September, saying that a full licencing hearing must take place before any proposals to reopen the venue can be considered. So both AMG and the Metropolitan Police have submitted paperwork stating their positions as the licencing situation is considered at Brixton Academy. And those will both be considered at this meeting of Lambeth Council's licencing subcommittee. It will also be interesting to see if there's any discussion of allegations that were made in a BBC report on the crowd crush incident earlier this year. And if there's any insight as to what extent the police have been investigating those allegations.

Chris Cooke 8:09 Yeah, at the time of the crowd crush itself, last December, it was reported that problems began at the venue when people outside the Brixton Academy without tickets for the sellout show tried to force their way into the building. However, soon after the incident, other allegations did start to circulate, which claimed that there may have been some other factors that contributed to the crowd crush. And some of those allegations were the focus of a report for BBC Radio Four’s File On Four earlier this year.

In that programme, they had an interview with a security guard who worked at the Brixton Academy, who told the BBC that certain members of the Security team of which he was part would actually allow people into shows without tickets in return for payment. And the allegation was basically that some of the door staff were working with ticket touts to basically sell fake tickets to people and then allow the fake ticket holders into the building. And as a result, on occasion, some shows were actually at higher capacity than they should have been. And obviously that's going to be a bigger problem where you have a sellout show.

The anonymous whistleblower who spoke to the BBC said that some members of the team the security team, the door team at the venue would allow a couple of 100 extra people into the venue in exchange for money, adding that people were taking money and some staff were making more than £1000 in cash as a result of that scheme.

Andy Malt 9:40 That whistleblower works for AP Security and stated that the company knew what was going on and they knew the people who were doing it and they did nothing about it. AP Security declined to comment on those claims, but did issue a statement saying that it was unable to do so due to the ongoing inquiries.

Chris Cooke 10:00 Back to the latest developments on this story when commenting on the upcoming review, Lambeth Councillor Mahamed Hashi said in a statement, “Our thoughts are with the family and friends of Rebecca Ikumelo and Gaby Hutchinson, who lost their lives, as well as with the person who is still in hospital. And all of those suffering. The trauma of witnessing such distressing scenes are one of the bearers, live music venues, we are determined to use the powers we have available to us to make sure the lessons of this tragedy are learned and that we never see a traumatic incident like this again in Lambeth.”

Andy Malt 10:34 Now the Night Time Industries Association has been working with the safe are seen initiative on a campaign in support of the Brixton Academy, urging Lambeth Council to ensure that the venue does reopen. And it said as the licencing hearing was announced, we have finally received the news that the licencing review hearing will take place on the 11th and 12th of September 2023 in Lambeth Town Hall. This is a critical moment for the venue as it will determine its future and will require as much support as possible throughout this hearing. As a result, the NTIA urged as many of the venue supporters as possible to request to speak during the hearing. And the trade group stated the more voices and people attending the stronger the representation.

Chris Cooke 11:19 So yes, this should be a very interesting licencing hearing. And you won't have to go to Lambeth Town Hall to watch it, although obviously you will if you want to have a representation there, but the whole thing is also going to be streamed. So I think a lot of people will be tuning in to see what is discussed what is revealed and what the future is looking like for what is at the end of the day, a very popular South London thing.

Andy Malt 11:53 And finally, on this edition of Setlist, US presidential hopeful Vivek Ramaswamy has been told to stop using Eminem’s music at his political events. The rapper's decision to seek to block Ramaswamy from using his music is - I mean, we can all guess likely to be down to his political agenda, him sitting very much on the right wing side of things. Although Eminem may also have been motivated by Ramaswamy’s pretty cringy performance of lose yourself at the recent Iowa State Fair.

Chris Cooke 12:31 He may indeed. So political newcomer and entrepreneur Ramaswamy is one of many people already bidding to be the Republican candidate in the next US presidential election. And he's kind of standing out at the moment because of his efforts to pander to Donald Trump's core base. Of course, he is competing for the Republican nomination with Donald Trump himself. But of all the other candidates he probably is the most Trump like. And certainly when there was that recent debate last month with all of the people who want to be the Republican candidates, when I say all all bar Trump, but all of the others probably was Ramaswamy, who got the most attention, and a most of the commentators and pundits and journalists who were noting his performance at that debate. What they were generally noting was that he was saying the sorts of things which have, generally speaking, gone down well, with the Trump base.

Now, I'm not personally following any of this close enough to know whether or not those are good comparisons, although there was a statement from him doing the rounds, which suggested it probably is a good comparison. But what is certainly true is in the day after this debate took place, there were plenty of headlines during the round to the effect that Ramaswamy is the new Trump.

Andy Malt 13:55 Yeah, given how many artists in the past have expressed annoyance at Donald Trump making use of their music at his political events, Ramaswami already annoying Eminem is yet another connection. Even if, in this, I think Ramaswamy is actually a fan of Eminem. Whereas you never really felt that Donald Trump had much actual interest in the artists whose music he used, except the Village People weirdly, who he did seem to really like. But generally, you got the impression that he was choosing songs that would rouse the MAGA crowd, rather than them being songs that he was actually into.

Chris Cooke 14:37 Talking of rousing the MAGA crowd, I mentioned that there was a statement that Ramaswamy made at this debate. I think I'm right in saying that this is basically a statement he's been making in various different places, clearly skewed politically towards the Trump crowd. So it's along the lines of, “God is real. There are two genders” - I should stress this is Ramaswamy speaking right now. “God is real…”

Andy 15:04 So I shouldn’t cut this out and stick it on social media? “Chris Cooke says…”

Chris Cooke 15:11 “What are you thinking at the moment?” Here's… so yes, Ramaswamy said very clearly. Okay, here we go. “God is real. There are two genders. Fossil fuels are a requirement for human prosperity. Reverse racism is racism. An open border is not a border. Parents determine the education of their children. The nuclear family is the greatest form of governance known to man. Capitalism lifts us up from poverty.” So although before I said, I'm not in a position to comment on whether or not he is the new Trump, I mean, you can see where the parallels are coming from.

Andy Malt 15:51 Yeah, and it does seem like a political agenda that many musicians would want to distance themselves from. Although, as I mentioned, in Eminem’s case, there is another video doing the rounds that he may also not want to see a repeat of, which was, as I say, at the Iowa State Fair, where Ramaswamy joined Iowa's Republican Governor Kim Reynolds on stage, and he walked on to Lose Yourself. And then, I mean, not just joined in, he really threw himself into it grabbed the mic, he started rapping quite badly because he didn't know all the words, but very intensely into the faces of the front row of the crowd who’d assembled to see him. So yeah, that might be something that Emine's quite keen to not see again.

Chris Cooke 16:43 But of course, whatever the motivation of Eminem may be, whenever musicians get annoyed with politicians using their music with back as a question that we have discussed many times on setlist over the years. In fact, there's probably in addition of Setlist from 2012 that we could cut a little segment out of on this issue. The question is, can artists stop politicians from using their music at political events?

Now, of course, copyright is meant to give artists or at least artists and their business partners, their labels and publishers control over what happens to the music. So if a streaming service wants to stream some music, or if a brand wants to put music in an advert because the copyright owner in the music has control over what happens to the music, the streaming service or the brand has to come to the copyright owner, the artist or the label or the publisher, and negotiate a deal. But of course, there are also all of those scenarios where music is used. And the music industry rather than having every artist and label and publisher and writer negotiating bespoke deals, employs the good old collective licencing system where the aforementioned BMI and ASCAP get involved when we're looking at this from a US perspective.

And generally speaking with collective licencing, which usually applies when music is used in venues and at big events, generally with collective licencing. The society's issuing blanket licences that give the licensees permission to use pretty much all music I mean, in the US because there are four collecting societies representing songwriters, BMI ASCAP, SESAC, GMR, a venue just needs to get licences from all of those societies. But once they do, they can pretty much use whatever music they like. And usually with collective licencing and blanket licences, you don't have to go and get specific permission from an artist or writer or label or publisher to use any one song or recording. And usually with collective licencing, there isn't an easy way for artists and writers to opt out. So there are scenarios where politicians and political parties make use of music at events, and there's nothing artists or songwriters can do.

Andy Malt 19:03 But as we learned after a plethora of artists hit out at Donald Trump for using their music at his rallies with political events in the US, there's actually an option for writers to stop their music from being used. And Eminem is collecting society BMI has told Ramaswamy that the rapper’s music is now excluded from the licence that it has issued to his campaign.

In a letter published by The Daily Mail BMI states that having issued the Ramaswamy campaign with a licence back in May, it “has received a communication from Marshall B Mathers II, professionally known as Eminem, objecting to the Vivek Ramaswamy campaign’s use of Eminem’s musical compositions and requesting that BMI remove all Eminem works from the agreement”.

“As such”, the letter continues, “pursuant to paragraph 2(a) of the agreement, this letter serves as notice that the Eminem works are excluded from the agreement effective immediately. BMI will consider any performance of the Eminem works by the Vivek 2024 campaign from this date forward to be a material breach of the agreement for which BMI reserves all rights and remedies with respect thereto”.

Chris Cooke 20:17 So that was a stern clear statement from BMI. No more Eminem music at Ramaswamy is events and rallies and such like. Now, we said before, are we in a position to comment on just how like Trump Ramaswamy is? We're probably not, we're not a political podcast. We're not here to make comments on what's happening with American politics at the moment. However, what we can say is the Ramaswamy doesn't seem to be adopting the Trump approach to dealing with these complaints from musicians over the use of their music at political events in that as far as we can see, the Ramaswami campaign is planning on complying with Eminem’s requests and not using his music.

Andy Malt 20:59 Yeah, and unlike Donald Trump, he hasn't even issued a statement, dissing the artist and saying I never really wanted to use their music anyway. Although, I suppose if Ramaswamy is actually an Eminem fan, then doing that to Eminem, would have been a harder thing to do.

Instead, a representative from Ramaswamy, his campaign issued a statement referencing both the letter from BMI and that rapping at the Iowa State Fair, saying, “Vivek just got on the stage and cut loose. To the American people’s chagrin, we will have to leave the rapping to the real Slim Shady”. No one's thinking that no one's thinking, Oh, it's a shame to listen to Eminem rapping instead of Vivek Ramaswamy. Because that's what the American people really want.

Chris Cooke 22:01 Actually, I think contrary to that, Ramaswamy committing to never rap ‘Lose Yourself’ at a political event ever again, it's pretty much the one thing that can truly unite the entire American. We found a position that can bring left and right together. So let's see if he sticks to that.

Andy Malt 22:23 He is truly the man bring the people together that we sorely need.

Chris Cooke 22:28 So we will see if Ramaswamy in his campaign sticks to that commitment to ensure no Eminem music is played or performed at any of his political events in, er, however long it is until the presidential election in the US their campaigns run forever, don't they? Is it 10 years away? I don't know.

Andy Malt 22:48 Well, yeah, the campaigns are always just so long. So long. We are more than a year away from the next US presidential election. But by this time next year, we will at least be close to it will still be a couple of months away. But you know, we've only got to go through this for another like 14 months before Donald Trump becomes US president again.

Chris Cooke 23:15 Yeah, and assuming Donald Trump doesn't end up campaigning from prison this time around. Presumably there will be plenty more events where he uses music, plenty more artists getting pissed off. So will no doubt be coming back to this kind of thing on a future edition of Setlist. Or of course if you're a particular fan of us discussing artists getting pissed off with politicians using their music. It is party conference season coming up here in the UK. So I would presume we'll be coming back to this again in October we will see.

Andy Malt 23:47 But that's all we've got time for on this edition of Setlist. If you want to read more about anything we've discussed here, go to the show notes which are full of links to where you can read more about all these things - that's why I said that. You can find those show notes in your podcast player right now or at setlistpodcast.com.

Don't forget to subscribe to the show if you've not done that already. rate and review it because that is helpful. And if you want to tell us anything or ask us anything or send us a picture of a dolphin, email us setlist@unlimitedmedia.co.uk

Setlist is the music business podcast from CMU. It's presented by Andy Malt and Chris Cooke. And for more on CMU go to completemusicupdate.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai