Erin: Hey pals, you've probably noticed the name of our podcast

and our logo is different today.

So before we dive into the episode, we just wanna explain why we were

contacted by a company in the US that felt our podcast name and logo

infringed on their registered trademarks.

Despite how we feel about this claim, Katie and I made the decision to move

away from our previous name, alpaca my bags, and our previous logo.

Kattie: Moving forward.

We are now Curious Tourism the Responsible Travel podcast.

Don't worry, this doesn't change anything about the content that we make.

We're still focused on making episodes about how travel can be

better for people and the planet.

So if you wanna show support for our new name and look, feel free to share us on

social media or tell a friend about us.

We're super excited to embrace this new name and we hope you are too.

Erin: For the last few years, Katie and I have been unpacking tourism to

try to understand how travel can be better for people and for the planet.

And in this time, one thing has become very clear.

There are several inconvenient truths when it comes to the travel industry.

In 2021, a documentary came out that addresses those inconvenient truths.

The last tourist.

Explores the benefits and the harms of tourism, as well as the myriad

of social issues that factor into the current tourism landscape.

Ultimately, the film argues that tourism has reached a tipping point.

Today on Curious Tourism, the Responsible Travel Podcast, we're chatting with

Tyson Sadler, the director behind the last tourist Tyson shares with

us some of the themes that come up in the film, like why we need to

address value chains and tourism.

And he also shares his thoughts on the state of tourism, what needs to

change for a better tourism future.

Kattie: Is this the first time that you've listened to Curious Tourism,

the Responsible Travel podcast?

If so, make sure that you've hit the follow button right now on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, because there is plenty more to come this

Erin: season.

If you wanna get in touch with us, you can find us on

Instagram at Curious Tourism Pod.

You can dmm us or email us anytime.

All of our contact info is in the episode description.

Okay, so.

We have some exciting news to share with all of you travel pals.

Also, is it awkward that I just like made the executive decision to

move from alpaca PAL to travel pals?

I was like, easy transition.

I think that's fine.

Okay.

Okay, Katie?

Yes.

We have an exciting announcement.

We do.

The day has finally come that you and I.

Are going to fly to another country together.

Yes.

I've been waiting for this moment for literally more than four

years now, so I'm so excited.

Kattie: We have done all the travel things so far that include Ontario.

Erin: Yes, we have road tripped a lot, but it's time for us to hit the skies.

Yes.

Okay.

And.

Travel pals, you are also infected.

Woo-hoo.

This is really exciting.

We are collaborating on a group trip with Origin Travels.

They are a locally owned group tour agency here in Toronto, and we have

had the founder of Origin on our show.

And over the years we've just like, Really enjoyed supporting them as they grow.

They've always supported us.

Um, we started out around the same time, which was really cute.

So yeah, we're excited to share that.

We're gonna be going together on one of their group trips and all

of you travel pals are invited

Kattie: to come with us.

All of you.

Every single one.

Actually there's a

Erin: cap, 10 people max.

The tour will be small groups, so like six to 10 people, and

two of those people will be us.

And just to clarify, we will not be your tour guides because Katie

and I are not qualified for that.

But we will be enthusiastically participating in the tour and I'll just

like make it my mission to find all the cute dogs and cats for us to pet.

Yes.

Well all.

Be the first to pet, just to make sure.

And

Kattie: then I'm gonna say, I'll make it my mission to tell you all to not pet it.

To ignore Erin.

Don't

Erin: do as I do.

Wait, we haven't even said where the tour.

No, we didn't.

Erin, where are we going?

We're going to Guatemala.

Woo.

Yay.

I'm really excited 'cause I've been there before and as everyone knows, I love going

back to places that I've already been.

Because it's like just double the fun when you're returning.

I'm excited to go back like a couple years later.

I'm sure I'll learn like lots of new things and it'll be your

Kattie: first experience.

I'm so excited 'cause I've been wanting to go, since I've read your

volcano blog and I was like, I need to

Erin: go.

We're gonna hike a volcano.

Like caveat, this is like an add-on.

You can add on to the tour if you want.

You can do a little volcano hike.

Obviously easy stuff for me.

I will be doing it.

You will be as well.

Katie.

You have no choice.

Um, but anyone, I'll up my inhaler up.

Anyone else who signs up can choose to do or to pass?

Totally up to you and yeah, do you wanna tell us?

About the guide for this tour group?

Kattie: Yes.

Okay, so our guide will be Nancy.

She was born and raised in Guatemala and has led all of the origin

travels, group trips to Guatemala.

So she'll be a part of every day and will be showing us her home country

and sharing her perspectives and answering all of our questions as we

Erin: travel.

Yeah, I'm super excited to meet Nancy.

And yeah, something else that I'm really excited about for this trip is that

we're gonna host a virtual or in person for anyone who is in the Toronto area.

Um, meet up before the trip.

Um, we're gonna do like a one to two hour session.

Where we will all complete together a short course by the Rise Travel Institute

that covers conscious travel in Guatemala.

So the course covers a brief history of Guatemala, current issues, cultural

dos and don'ts, and much more.

And we thought this would be a fun like pre-departure activity that we

can do altogether can help us all get to know each other before the trip,

and then we can all go into the trip with some solid knowledge of how to

be a conscious first in Guatemala.

Mm-hmm.

And,

Kattie: uh, rise is also Vin Ho's company who will be joining us later

this season, which I'm so excited for because that conversation is so

Erin: good.

Yeah, she's great.

The trip is gonna be November 18 to 24, and if you wanna join us,

you can go to the link in our episode notes to learn more about

the trip and to reserve your spot.

Anyways.

What are you most excited for in

Kattie: Guatemala?

Well, I mentioned the volcano, but I also mentioned to you before

we started recording that I also had to take a puff of my inhaler.

So I'm a bit nervous.

I just need to like work on my lung capacity, I think, before we get there.

And also, is there like altitude sickness when you go up the volcano?

Is that something to worry about?

I don't think

Erin: we're gonna do the, the one I did that is like the really intense

one, we'll probably do Pecha, which is.

A shorter, shorter volcano.

Kattie: Less tall volcano.

Less tall volcano, less altitude.

Erin: Yes.

Um, but we can definitely come prepared with some medication

to take before, just in case.

'cause to be honest, like everyone's really different and you never

know how it'll impact you.

Like I was kind of surprised at how quickly I felt the

impact of altitude sickness.

And there's one we can do 'cause the touros go to lake added land, which is.

A gorgeous region of, uh, Guatemala, and there's a really fun sunrise hike you

can do there that is like tough because you're doing it at four in the morning

in the dark, but you don't go to a really high altitude and you are rewarded with

the most beautiful sunrise and like fresh tea, coffee Oh, on the top of a mountain.

So we're definitely doing that.

And I think that one's pretty, like, I would say it's pretty entry level like.

You just gotta gear up for 30 minutes of difficultness, and once

you get through it, you're okay.

Wear

Kattie: comfortable shoes, you'll be good.

Mm-hmm.

It'll all be worth it in the end.

I'm very excited for that because I love a sunrise and I love a sunset.

Like I am that annoying person.

Literally, I think probably every single night.

When there is a sunset at home, I'm like, mark, look at

the beautiful sunset outside.

He's like, yeah, yeah.

What?

At the beautiful sunset?

He is like, there was one last night too.

I'm like, I don't care.

It's gorgeous.

I love a sunset and I love a sunrise.

I am all about this.

I

Erin: would argue that sunrises hit different because you have to

force yourself to wake up for them, so they're more of a treat 'cause

you don't see them all the time.

Yes, yes,

Kattie: totally.

I'm so pumped and I hate

Erin: getting up, like really early in the morning, so, um, I'll be miserable,

Kattie: but it'll be worth it.

We'll be grumpy together because I used to think that I was a morning person.

This is not true.

It's, we'll all

Erin: do our best.

We'll see what happens.

'cause sometimes when I travel, like.

I don't know what it is.

Like when we were in Belize last fall, I was waking up at 6:00

AM like naturally every day.

Like I literally went and watched the sunrise every day.

'cause for some reason I just like woke up early.

I think it might be because like during the day, unlike at home,

you're outside, you're in the sun, like you're doing things all day.

So Luke and I were always like in bed by like nine o'clock,

which is unusual for me at home.

But when I'm traveling, I'm just so pooped by the end of the day.

So it's easier to like, Get to sleep early and wake up

Kattie: with the sun.

Yeah.

I also think that like when you're traveling, you're just less stressed

out than you normally are, and so like your sleep feels like you're

more well rested and you're excited to wake up the next morning.

You're not like tired or maybe you're a little tired or maybe even a little

hungover, but you're still down.

To wake up.

Yeah.

And you're like excited for the next day, which is tough.

You know, capitalism sucks.

So I, you know, we all, we all do our best, but I think in travel it'll be easy

because also we'll be with a group too.

So we'll all be like encouraging each other to just get up

really early and just do it.

Yeah.

Erin: Okay.

There's one fear I have.

What about going back to Guatemala, specifically to lake added land, because

as you know, I was bitten by a cat there and I just like, you know, the lifespan

of cats, like it could very much still be alive and I know exactly where it will

be and I know exactly what it looks like.

You cat, like, I have photos of this cat and I'm worried that I'm gonna

see this cat and it's gonna be like it's you and come after me again.

Kattie: How many years has it been like

Erin: this was 2018, that this cat and I first had a bad encounter?

It'll be older.

Kattie: Yeah.

Maybe it's gonna be senile too.

Erin: No, I was hoping like the cats get less vicious in their old age.

Kattie: Oh no.

I guess we're gonna find out, but this

Erin: cat like lives in this restaurant, so I just know like

if we go to this restaurant, it's going to be there and it's

Kattie: gonna bite you again.

I dunno.

Because if you don't pet it, you might avoid that.

Yeah.

Erin: Yeah.

So yeah, excited and I hope that some of you travel pals will come and join us.

Yes.

It can be really fun.

Kattie: Yes.

And if you have any questions about the tour as well, like definitely

reach out to Origin Travels and they can answer them for you.

We want you to be there more than anything, so ask

all the questions you need.

Yeah.

Alright, Aaron, should we talk to Tyson?

Erin: Yeah, let's do it.

Super excited to be connecting with you.

Tyson, big fan of the film and was really excited.

Like I watched the film not realizing it was like made by Canadians, so

that was a really pleasant surprise.

Tyson: Yeah.

Well thanks for having me today.

I am really happy to sit down with

Erin: you and also just need to plug.

It was really fun to see our friend show up in the credits role.

Katie, did you catch that Emily Scott?

Is in the credits.

I did not

Kattie: catch that.

Erin: That's amazing.

Yeah.

Emily, she is a friend of ours and she has come on our podcast twice,

so that was like, oh, amazing.

Really exciting to see.

To start, I'm curious about how you became invested in talking about

how and why tourism needs to change.

Was there an aha moment for you that made you look at travel more responsibly?

Tyson: Yeah.

Well, the creation of this film didn't happen all at once.

I've worked in the travel sector for the last 20 years and I've also worked

as a journalist, you know, traveling to some very remote, isolated and

fragile parts of the world, and in I.

The winter of 2018, our executive producer approached myself, you know, to direct

a, a film somewhere, you know, in the space of, of responsible tourism and in

seeing, you know, how we as travelers interact with the world around us.

How we interact with, you know, other communities and how we

interact with wildlife and how we interact with the environment.

You know, through our conversations, um, with our executive producer,

you know, it kind of became.

Evident that, you know, the right course of action if we were gonna embark

on a film like this, was to create a film which served as an inconvenient

truth for the travel industry.

You know, something that tackled a lot of the difficult questions

and, you know, difficult ethical concerns within the industry.

Pulled back the curtains and, you know, kind of allowed us as travelers to

realize the full impact of our decisions.

And, um, you know, so what began in, you know, in January of 2018 actually,

you know, was the initial steps of a four year journey, which took us around

the world to 17 different countries.

Um, you know, in, in conversations with, you know, some of the world's

foremost experts in travel and also some.

You know, many, many people on the ground level, you know, who

were working in tourism, who, you know, were exploited by tourism.

And also people who were leveraging tourism, you know, as a way to, um,

improve, you know, situations in their impoverished communities and also

build a better life for themselves.

Um, also, um, enact, you know, and change, you know, positive change on

the environment and also wildlife.

Erin: I'm curious, like as someone who's worked in this space for so long, sort

of like challenging the way that we travel, what's your take on like how, I

hate the word mainstream, but like how common knowledge would you say it is?

Because like for Katie and I watching your film, a lot of these issues were

ones we're familiar with because we talk about them on the show, but it's

sometimes hard in our own little bubble to know like what maybe the general

public like knows about these issues.

So I'm curious if you have a take on that as.

Someone who writes about responsible tourism and has now made this film,

Tyson: it's fascinating because a lot of these themes aren't necessarily new.

You know, you, you mentioned that you, you know, you're kind of in a bubble, and

I believe that I'm in that same bubble because some of these conversations

have been had in certain circles for.

You know, for decades, 10, 20, 30 years.

Um, and people are still trying to enact some meaningful change.

You know, there, there's a movement, you know, in the right direction.

But I don't, it, it's, it's just not there yet.

But it's, it's amazing to me, you know, when we screen this

film for people who aren't.

You know, part of this community, you know, part of this bubble of people who

have these conversations about social responsibility and environmentalism,

you know, on a regular basis, many of these themes, people are still

discovering them for the first time.

And surprisingly, the vast majority of people are not thinking about the ethical.

Impacts of our, of our travel choices, you know, and often when we travel

and I'll, I'll use a collective, we, but often when we travel, you know,

it's like we suspend our values.

You know, we have a certain way that we act in our communities at

home, and we have a certain way that we act among our friends and, you

know, and we have a certain social and environmental responsibility

in our, in our own communities.

But it's, it's amazing, you know, when somebody books, they're all

inclusive down to Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, um, how a lot of those.

Just very normal ethical parts of our lives, you know, and just in terms of

recycling and how we interact with our neighbors can just be put on a shelf

and forgotten about for that week.

I.

In actuality, the impact of our choices have much greater consequences when we

travel abroad, because abroad, you know it specifically in developing countries,

they don't have the infrastructure to handle, um, poor decisions like we

would in Canada or the US or in the uk.

Poor choices have a much greater impact and a more negative

impact on host communities, on the environment and on wildlife.

Erin: Yeah, there's so much to unpack there.

I mean, we talk all the time on this podcast about how like even people

who have like quite a lot of awareness of social responsibility and travel

will still travel in a sort of like a mind frame of, it's just for leisure.

I think it's like really easy to separate, like travel from

social responsibility because we associate it so much with leisure.

And then like that just brings me to, okay, well we live in a capitalist.

Society.

So like when you have two weeks vacation, of course you're gonna view those two

weeks as leisure and not want to have to engage with like social responsibility and

like just face the reality of your impact, um, when you're just trying to recover

from like the weight of capitalism.

Tyson: I mean, and to, you know, to piggyback on that, you know,

when, when the ultimate goal, you know, in, in tourism is profits.

Those profits have a cost, and often the cost is the most fragile, you

know, in in, in terms of, you know, the poorest people, endangered wildlife,

you know, fragile environments.

Erin: And I really appreciated, like, I think the film does such

a great job of showing you that.

But yeah, just in case there's people listening who haven't seen the last

tourist, um, the film explores the benefits, but also the harms of tourism as

well as the myriad of social issues that factor into the current tourism landscape.

As a podcaster in this space, I know all too well how challenging it can

be to talk about responsible tourism in a way that delves into the nuance.

Of it.

Katie and I have now made almost a hundred episodes of this show and we're

still working through a long spreadsheet of topics that we need to talk about.

So given that, I'm curious how you were able to decide like which issues or which

stories were the most important to cover under the umbrella of Responsible Travel?

'cause you only have like 90 minutes with a film, so how did you decide?

Tyson: It was incredibly challenging.

The umbrella of tourism is, is just so vast.

People will watch the movie and, you know, might think like, well, why didn't

you cover, you know, certain aspects.

You know, we, we, we don't cover sex tourism, we don't cover, you know, I

mean there's, there's, there's lots of different areas that certainly deserve,

you know, like their, their own film.

And what we, what we do in this film, you know, is, is we.

We scratch the surface, we dig a little deeper.

Um, but really, you know, this film serves to spark some conversations,

you know, some difficult conversations about our relationship with travel.

Upon completion of this film, you know, what, what we realized is that,

well, the next step is a six part, you know, episodic on a streaming platform.

And so what in order to narrow down.

The themes that we wanted to cover in the film.

The, the first six months, you know, of, of this film were just, was, was

research and talking and having Zoom conversations with, you know, with experts

and, and, and, uh, tour operators and just getting a finger on the pulse of

what some of the biggest concerns were.

We wanted to make a movie that had an appeal to a mass audience.

We wanted to make a film that.

You know, that, that serve the traveler, you know, serve just people like

you and me who love to just put on a backpack and go traveling and explore.

And so this, this film isn't made for destination management organizations or,

you know, politicians or governments, although we would love them to watch it.

And we certainly think that there's a lot to gain from it.

But ultimately, you know, the, the target audience in this film, people

like myself who are travelers and backpackers who just love to go out

and explore and have intercultural ex exchanges, you know, with.

Different parts of the world.

What what we realized, you know, within that period of, of exploration is that

we, we wanted to tackle, you know, some of the, the more popular tourist

activities, you know, that had a greater, um, impact, you know, on the global, you

know, G D P, um, in terms of tourism.

And so it, we really narrowed it down to three major components.

The environment tourism's, impact on wildlife and most importantly, tourism's

impact on host communities and poverty alleviation is a big part of this.

Recognizing also that, you know, tourism is a double-edged sword.

That was the exploration that we needed to, to have.

There's a positive and a negative in all of our decisions.

The

Erin: film touches on the impact of cruise ships and resorts.

Um, it talks about distribution of wealth in tourism, the rise of all in

tourism, wildlife tourism, and much more.

But I'm curious, which of these tourism issues that you explored

had the greatest impact on you?

I know that you've worked in this, in this area for quite a while, but was there

any particular issue that you touched in the film that when you learned about

it, you just felt it just had more of an impact on you compared to the others?

What what's interesting

Tyson: about this film is that, you know, it's certainly a reflection

of my travel history and it's a reflection of my travel experience.

The negatives that we explore in the film.

You know, I, I'm, I'm the first to raise my hand and say that, you know,

at one time in my life I was guilty.

I.

Cruise ships guilty elephant riding, guilty, volunteering

in orphanages, guilty.

All of those, you know, had a, had a significant impact on me.

Um, I'm a, I'm a wildlife lover.

You know, my, my current travel choices, you know, take me around the world, you

know, in, in, in search of large wildlife and I love to photograph wildlife.

With with, with that in mind, one of the greatest aha moments that I had during

the creation of this film was looking, you know, at the elephant riding.

Tourism in, uh, in Thailand 22 years ago, I took a trip to Thailand with a friend

and we rode elephants and I had no idea at that time, you know, the, the impact that

tourism actually has on these elephants.

There's, you know, elephant tourism relies on a process called the paja, which serves

to break, you know, the spirit of the elephant, both physically and mentally.

And when we engage in.

Tourist activities like elephant riding, we need to realize that when

that elephant was a juvenile, it was likely separated from its mother and

it had its tail and legs and trunk, you know, bound, um, in a process called

the paja, which broke the spirit of this animal, which then allowed humans

to ride it for the rest of its life.

Uh, it's a devastating and cruel and, and horrible process.

It's also one that is supported by every tourist who rides an elephant.

Seeing that, you know, firsthand, um, was a real moment, you know, that, um, I.

That really had an emotional impact on

Erin: me.

I can relate to that because seven years ago I was in Cambodia and

I knew not to ride elephants.

This was becoming like commonly talked about at that time.

So I looked for a sanctuary to visit elephants, and I found one that I.

Thought was reputable and they might be, I, I really don't know.

But I went and part of the program was that you fed the elephants and you brought

them into the water and washed them.

And I've since learned like making this podcast that actually like

any form of interaction is just a no because like, Any interaction

that you have with that elephant it's been trained to have with you.

So I fully relate to this experience of just like learning as you go, and

that shaped a lot of our show as well.

Like a lot of the issues that we have tackled first are ones that I've like

grappled with myself, just through my own experiences traveling the world.

Tyson: There's a constant state of greenwashing that happens in the

travel industry, and I've learned, you know, specifically whether you're

in Cambodia or whether you're in Thailand, I've learned that a lot of

the language around sustainable tourism.

Is absolutely meaningless, you know, and for example, when, when we go to Thailand,

Cambodia, there's phrases that are used.

You know, you use the term sanctuary.

There's, you know, there's retirement home, there's elephant orphanage.

You know, there's, there's these words that, you know, that companies

use to mask the fact that, you know, they're engaging in unethical behavior.

But really ultimately, you know, it's just a change in branding.

The product is still the same, and we see that the same, you know, in, in orphanage,

you know, in human orphanage, you know, in orphanage tourism there's certain language

that's kind of become a dirty word.

You know, like orphanage has become a dirty word.

And now, you know, I mean, these purveyors of the orphanages, you know, are now

using terms like child center and, you know, other words just to mask the, the

negative connotations that have gone, you know, with these, with, with traditional.

Language in these spaces.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely.

It makes it really hard to actually figure out like what, what the right choice is.

Tyson: I completely agree.

You know, and I've, I've come to learn that there's a lot less

ethical tourism happening and a lot more branding and marketing.

Erin: So one of the other themes that comes up throughout the last tourist is

this idea of the tourism value chain.

I was really intrigued by this.

It's not something I've ever read about or heard about before.

I'm hoping you could explain what the tourism value chain

is and why it's important that travelers are informed about it.

Tyson: Basically, the more money tourists spend and the more money stays

in a region, the more value is added.

For that destination.

Uh, there's this concept called tourism leakage.

And it, it happens when an international company provides your hotel, your flight,

uh, your rental car, your excursions.

Um, it happens when you eat imported food or, you know, dine at a, you

know, at an international restaurant.

All that money leaves the country in, in the tourism value chain ourselves

as travelers being part of that chain.

We need to be mindful that.

Um, you know, there, there's never a scenario where it's possible, you know,

to a hundred percent, but if we're mindful, we can at least have a greater

impact at having ev more percentage of the every dollar that we spend in a

community that stays in that community, um, in order to, to reduce leakage.

And so that, that includes seeking out locally owned hotels, locally owned tour

operators, locally owned restaurants.

You know, there's always gonna be.

You know, a, a certain degree of leakage, a certain level of, you know,

funds that are leaving a community.

Um, but if we're mindful, we can at least help reduce the impact.

You know, if we are, you know, and I'm speaking specifically about when

we travel to international Destin destinations and, and, uh, You know,

developing countries, but we can have the greatest impact on poverty

alleviation in developing countries.

You know, when we are mindful about where our dollar's being spent and being mindful

about having that dollar actually stay in the community rather than leaving

the community through foreign ownership of hotels and restaurants and car hire.

Erin: So it's a term for describing the practice of ensuring that your tourism

dollars actually bring value to the host community rather than leaving the country.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

No, that's a great term for it.

Like I've, 'cause we've talked about this concept on the show like plenty of

times, like about how important it's.

To make sure you spend your tourism dollars in the communities

that you're visiting and making sure that those dollars actually

benefit those communities.

But I just think this term is such a great descriptor for it.

So I'm gonna use this moving forward

Tyson: and, and, and, and there's a way that we can look at our travel,

you know, like our travels in some ways can be our form of giving back.

When we are mindful about where that money is spent and where we are mindful

about keeping the, those funds within the community that we spend them, do

you

Erin: have tips for how people can assure that?

'cause I think like sometimes it can be really hard, like you're

looking at a hotel website and they might do a good job of disguising,

like who actually owns the hotel?

Tyson: Ask questions, you know, ask.

I mean, that, that's, you know, number one is travelers.

We need to ask the hard questions.

We should be able to ask a hotel or a restaurant, what's your

social responsibility like?

What are you doing for the community?

You know, how does, how does your business impact the community?

And if they have something in place, they should be able to

answer that question fairly easily.

If nothing is in place, then you know there's gonna be a stutter

and they're not gonna be able to.

You know, an answer that question, it's difficult, you know, to really know,

you know, for a hundred percent you know that, that your money is going, you

know, where people say that it's going.

Really the, you know, the best advice that I have for people is just, you

know, ask the difficult questions, have a set of checks and balances

and, you know, just try and get.

The answers that you're looking for, all we can do is our best.

Erin: Yeah.

It brings to mind an episode that we did a couple seasons back.

We interviewed a woman who has a tourism company in Mongolia, and she

was telling us that she didn't share much information on the website.

Site, um, for the company about sort of like who was running the

company and the checks and balances going on in the background.

And she said one day she got this email from someone just asking a

couple questions about like their practices and is it locally owned.

And it gave her this like realization that she should just share all of this.

Information on the site and be transparent about it.

So I thought that was like really interesting and, and now that you're

making this point, it's like maybe if more people start asking these questions,

um, more companies will see value in like sharing that information upfront.

I.

I think what

Tyson: people are gonna, you know, or tourism operator, you know, tour operators

are gonna see is that it's actually good for business when, when they are,

you know, locally owned and operated.

You know, when they, when they can prove, you know, that they're sourcing locally.

Um, you know, if, if tourists really want this and, and tourists demand this,

then it, it'll, it'll be delivered.

And, and I think what, what research has showed as well is

that tourists are willing to pay, you know, like a premium for that.

You know, just, just to know that, you know, that their dollars

are helping the local community.

They often, um, you know, hit obstacles, you know, in, in not being able to find,

you know, enough ways to give back.

But this is a great way for us to give back.

You know, is when our hoteliers and our restaurants and you know, our tour

operators can show us as travelers that this is where the money is, is going.

You know, we have a certain percentage of locally hired employees and you know, we

source our fruits and vegetables locally.

And that's a great step forward.

And I think it's, you know, in terms of marketing, I think it's great for business

Erin: as well.

So I know through making the film, you've had the chance to talk to

people involved in tourism all over the world, and I'm curious, having had

the chance to speak with so many local people in so many diverse destinations,

I'm wondering if you've gathered a pulse or a feeling about how people in

global communities are feeling about travelers visiting their communities.

This is a great

Tyson: question and it's, it's not a one size fits all, you know, and from

from my research, you know what, what we discovered was that, you know,

tourism, ultimately it's a recreational pursuit for people like you and I who

come from Canada, but in the developing world, it's a tool to alleviate poverty.

In many circumstances, and not all communities want tourism, we need

to remember that it's their right to decide if they want to leverage

tourism as a tool for their community.

And if so, we need to allow them to define what success looks like.

And that's not something that should be imposed by outside capitalists

and outside tour operators.

And you know, that's something that needs to be done from within.

And we can't say that tourism is sustainable and responsible

unless those factors are met.

You know, the, the, it's the community themselves that have made that

decision to use tourism as a tool.

They're the ones who get to decide what success looks

Erin: like.

And I guess a lot of it has to do also with sort of the infrastructure

that's already in place and like the government policies that are in

place to protect those communities.

'cause I think, like what I've noticed sometimes is like

communities will start out enjoying.

Tourism and it'll bring lots of benefits, but then it'll spill into

like the territory of over tourism where the harm starts setting in.

And then it, like it sort of snowball effects until it's

just not a benefit anymore.

Tyson: Absolutely.

And you know, and that's why destination management is so important.

At the beginning, you know, the, on the surface level, the

promises of tourism are wonderful.

You know, and I, I would use cruise ship, uh, ports like in the Caribbean

as, as examples, you know, the, when cruise ships approach these places

in Jamaica or the Cayman Islands or Haiti, you know, the, the promise of

tourism, the promise of, you know, foreign dollars and job increase.

Um, you know, coming to their communities is, is wonderful.

But there is a threshold and.

How much is too much?

How many people are, you know, are too many people or, or you know, what types

of tourists are coming into, you know, and what demands are, are they making?

You know, I think in the news right now, um, we're seeing, um, a lot of

news from Del Carmen and Tulum, um, in terms of, you know, foreign tourists.

There, there's a large problems with the drug cartels.

In the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico right now, the drug cartels are

fighting over territory because tourists are demanding drugs when they,

you know, travel to these regions.

And so we've tourists ultimately have created another, or, you know,

a, a host of unintended consequences and unintended problems, um,

you know, which has resulted in.

I mean a lot of corruption murder in, in this area.

And I mean, that was never the intent when, you know, Mexico

decided to designate this area, you know, as a tourist region.

Um, but now we're seeing some very negative impacts

because it's just gotten out

Erin: of hand.

I.

Yeah.

And then the irony of that is like the media here in Canada tells Canadians not

to go to Mexico because it's dangerous.

Yeah.

And yet we've caused the problem.

Yeah.

I wanted to talk a bit about the look of the film 'cause it's gorgeous.

Um, the cinematography just really makes you feel a sense of amazement

at how beautiful our planet is.

Watching it really made me think of the b b C travel shows that I watched

growing up that played a big part in making me personally really interested

in seeing the world, and I think the beauty of the cinematography creates.

A sort of conflict for viewers.

That's really interesting because the film makes you want to travel and see

these places, but at the same time, you're being forced to grapple with the

impact that your travels could have there.

So yeah, I'm assuming there was purpose in this conflict, but I wanted to ask

you about it and see what you think

Tyson: we, we wanted to demonstrate at, at the same time that we're pulling

back the curtain on our, you know, on, on the impacts of our travel choices.

We never wanted to lose, you know, the, just the fact of how wonderful

and beautiful and rich travel can be.

And you know, and when, when you talk about the conflict, I think,

you know, you've hit the nail on the head right there because tourism

is a conflict for every good.

You know, there's a potential negative if we are able to do tourism, right?

You know, there's a beauty and a richness that's unmatched and you

know, we didn't want that to be lost.

In the film, which is why we chose to, you know, have some very beautiful cinematic

Erin: landscapes.

Mm-hmm.

I also think like there's a benefit to it where you might draw in some viewers,

we call them, Katie and I sometimes use the phrase casual travelers, like

people who just aren't really thinking about like the impact of travel.

They might just like accidentally click your documentary and think they're

gonna just see some beautiful landscapes and then boom, they're learning

about the impact of their travels.

Well, we also

Tyson: wanna entertain.

We don't want people just to turn on the film and just be bombarded with, you

know, a series of statistics, but we want to tell, you know, real life meaningful

stories of, you know, individuals, you know, who, who live in communities

that are being impacted by tourism.

And, you know, part of the story, you know, of, of these individuals

is the environment that they live in.

Erin: So there's a quote in the film where the narrator says, we

as tourists have lost the plot.

And this is a theme that connects throughout the entire movie.

Um, and there's a lot of emphasis on what individual travelers can do

to travel in a more responsible way.

So things like doing your own research and being conscious.

Of where your tourism dollars go as you're traveling.

These are all things that we talk about as well on this show, but I

do find, especially lately, that I feel a bit conflicted about these

messages just because it puts so much pressure on individual travelers.

So in your research, Into the tourism industry, did you come across any industry

level solutions that could also contribute to a more responsible tourism model?

And just to expand a little bit, I mean like putting the pressure on

individual travelers in situations where there's systemic issues at play,

that in some situations my choice to stay in an eco-friendly hotel, will

it really have impact when really it should be the entire system shifting

over to more eco-friendly practices.

Tyson: Well, solutions happen on two levels.

They happen from policies that are, that are enacted by governments and from

destination management organizations, and they also happen on a foundational

individual level with the traveler.

It's my feeling that, you know, that real change.

Will happen when we have governments and destination management on side.

It, it's, it's, it's larger sweeping policies, you know, that, that

are gonna have the real change.

You know, and if we use elephant riding in northern Thailand, for example,

if one person says, you know, if one traveler goes to Thailand, they say,

well, I'm not gonna ride an elephant.

There's a very small positive impact, you know, from, from a decision like that.

But really, you know, where the str, you know, the, if we really want to

have lasting systemic change, the change really needs to come from the

Thai government in, you know, making a blanket ban on all elephant riding or,

you know, elephant tourist activities.

There is a place for both of that.

So yes, we, pressure does need to be put on governments and

destination management organizations.

And then pressure also needs to be put on travelers.

And I think that they're also connected.

We have seen, um, you know, ground being broken, you know, because

we, we look at a company like, um, TripAdvisor, you know, who's one of

the world's largest booking websites.

Um, several years ago they, they made a blanket ban on, you know,

wildlife activities, you know, being booked through their websites.

You cannot book, you know, an elephant, um, experience.

Through TripAdvisor, and that's a really wonderful step forward.

Um, but the reason why TripAdvisor did that is because there was demands

being placed on them from travelers saying that, you know, that we demand

a more ethical social responsibility from our, our booking agents, and

that was ultimately delivered.

The message of our film is geared towards the tourists, but that doesn't.

Let you know governments and, and, uh, DMO off the hook.

You know, there's still a lot of responsibility and we still have a lot

of work to do, you know, to put pressure on them to make sweeping policy changes.

Erin: And of course like more awareness is always a good thing because like,

I guess the one power that we have is like our dollar and consumer demand.

And I know, like when we talked with Natasha Daley, who's a journalist

who has covered, um, elephants and other wildlife tourism, she had

told us like that consumer demand really did help shift things in

Thailand slightly away from riding.

So I guess there is like power in that because when tourists stop asking for

it, like it'll stop being offered.

Tyson: It starts with us.

It doesn't end with us, but it certainly starts with us.

Erin: So one criticism that I've experienced in the quote unquote

responsible tourism space is people saying, why are you traveling if you

know how bad it is for the planet?

It's a fair criticism that I've grappled with personally.

Um, it's tough though because I'm aware of the harms of travel, but I also know.

How much good can come from travel?

I think personally that it's about finding balance and trying to tip

the scales so that tourism has more of a positive impact than a bad one.

So in the documentary it's mentioned that tourism is going to continue

to grow and with tourism growing the way it is, and with travel becoming

more and more accessible to more people, do you have any concerns

about the direction that the industry is going to go in the coming years?

Do you think that we're headed in a good direction or are you concerned

that things will continue to go towards the more harmful models of tourism?

Tyson: I, I believe that both are going to happen.

I'm really excited that, you know, that responsible travel is a theme that a lot

more people are engaging in and that, you know, that the, a younger generation

and millennials are very interested in.

That's a positive sign.

Now if we put into perspective this is, you know, from my observation, it is also

a conversation that's primarily being had, you know, had in western countries.

And so, I mean, it, it's not an uncommon conversation to have in

Canada and the US and, and you know, different European nations in Australia.

I.

I, I'm not convinced that this conversation is happening

yet in a country like China.

And to put things in perspective, I mean, China is, you know, one of

the largest countries in the world.

Less than 10% of Chinese have passports.

On the flip side, I.

Over 70% of Canadians hold passports and, and can travel.

What we're seeing in China right now is, you know, a, a, a huge

growth in middle class and a large growth in people, you know, uh, of

Chinese travelers traveling abroad.

Now the amount of Chinese travelers is just eclipsing, you know, what,

what, you know, the numbers of people leaving from our country.

And so one of my fears is that, With the growing middle class in China and

with the growing amount of international travelers coming from China, it's

very important that they have these conversations about responsible tourism.

And I mean, I know that we're currently seeing some devastating effects, um,

in certain communities in Cambodia.

Where, you know, they're seeing a huge influx of Chinese travelers.

But it's my observation that China, you know, the people from China

are not yet having, you know, these in-depth conversations about what it

means to be a responsible traveler.

You know, it's up to us.

'cause we're all part of this global travel community, you know, to.

Not wait, you know, another 30 years before this conversation is had.

Mm-hmm.

Erin: It needs to be more of like a global goal and maybe there needs to

be more collaboration like on a global scale between like all travelers,

regardless of where they're going for this to, to actually make a difference.

Tyson: Absolutely.

And there, you know, but, and again, like there comes challenges with that, you

know, in, in terms of, you know, you know, just cultural differences and language

barriers and it's a massive challenge.

I know, I, I mean, I'm, I'm very confident and I'm optimistic about

it, but I just know that it's gonna be a large hurdle for us to overcome

within, you know, in the coming decades.

Erin: So to build on that last question, one of the reasons I think it's

not reasonable to argue that people should stop traveling is because I

know that that would never happen.

Like you say, the tourism industry's only going going to grow, and

humans have always been explorers.

We seem to have always had this drive to travel, and because of

this, I think it's just completely unrealistic that we would ever.

Just like full stop.

So I guess what I'm saying is I don't think there will ever be a last tourist.

So on that note, I wanted to ask what message you were hoping to send by

naming the documentary the Last Tourist.

Tyson: I wanna draw a distinction, you know, between a traveler and a tourist.

Uh, you know, a, a tourist is somebody who, you know, goes

abroad and is there for themselves.

You know, is, is there to be served and catered to.

Isn't being mindful of, you know, the contributions that

they're making to, to that.

To that country.

A traveler on the other hand, is somebody who's more mindful, is somebody who's

part of a, a, a community is making decisions that have neutral or positive

impacts on the environment, on wildlife and on the communities that they visit.

And so the, the idea behind naming the film the last tourist.

Is because the idea of a tourist, you know, we feel has to end, you know,

the, the, the, the idea of a tourist traveling to a destination and having

it all be about themselves and what they can gain and not thinking of,

you know, of, of, of the community or the greater good that idea has to end.

You know, we need to be more res, more mindful, responsible,

respectful travelers.

Okay,

Erin: cool.

It's funny you you say this because I actually was interviewed on a show

recently and they asked me like, do you think there's a difference

between a traveler and a tourist?

And I said, no.

I'll tell you why though.

'cause I was just saying like the way that I've heard that distinction made

like in the travel community often is, is not about this framework of

like a traveler being a more mindful.

Tourist.

It's more that, oh, a traveler travels in a specific way that's like, I don't do

resorts, I don't do this, I don't do that.

And it's sort of like a holier than thou framework that doesn't have so much

to do with like responsible tourism.

And there's sort of this like thing where people don't want to be a tourist.

And my whole argument was like, actually the terms mean the same thing.

Like when it comes down to it regardless, like you are a guest

in another person's country.

So that's how I was thinking about it.

But I do like the way you framed it, especially in the context of the film.

Tyson: Thank you.

Yeah, and I, I mean, I, I think that, well, 1, 1, 1 of the most meaningful lines

in the film, I think you, you sort of just summarized it right there, you know,

is that we need to remember always that we are guests in somebody else's home.

And, you know, we need to act, you know, when we visit other communities abroad,

we need to act in a way that, you know, reflects our respect for that place.

Just as if we'd enter the home of a friend or a family member in our own community.

Erin: Okay.

So to wrap up, we always like to ask everyone who comes on alpaca

my bags for an insider tip.

Um, I can't remember where you're based.

Are you in Vancouver?

I'm in Vancouver.

Okay.

So could you share a favorite local activity shop restaurant experience

from Vancouver that our listeners can go try out for themselves?

I

Tyson: have friends that they come to Vancouver for the first time and you know,

I kind of send them the, you know, the same list of things that I really enjoy.

But if anybody's coming to, you know, to Vancouver, my favorite activity is

to head down to Denman Street and rent a bicycle and to ride the Stanley Park

Sea Wall and Falls Creek Sea Wall.

That's one of my favorite, you know, favorite views and favorite activities

in Vancouver, you know, and it's, it's environmentally friendly and yeah, you

get to, you know, you can sample some.

Local restaurants and you can see some beautiful views of Vancouver, but that,

that's probably my favorite activity.

You know when, when friends visit from outta town?

Oh,

Erin: I love it.

I'm a big cyclist, so I'll definitely be doing that next time I'm in Vancouver.

Where can listeners find your film and learn more about

Tyson: you?

You can learn more about the film and watch the trailer, um,

uh, through our social channels.

Instagram and Twitter at the last tourist film.

You can also visit our website www.thelasttouristfilm.com.

You can find me on Instagram and Twitter.

At Tyson Sadler, um, and also at my website, tyson sadler.com.

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it with a fellow traveler.

Make sure you're following us on all your favorite podcast apps, and if you're

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change throughout the travel industry.

Curious Tourism.

The Responsible Travel Podcast is written and hosted by me, Aaron

Hines, and it's produced and edited by Katie Lohr in Canada's Toronto area.

Our theme music is called Night Stars by Wolf Saga.

David R Miracle and the Chippewa Travelers.

If you wanna reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.

I'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, stay curious.