Earlier this year I traveled to the west coast of Ireland.

It's one of my favorite regions of Ireland, and I'm super lucky to have a

close friend who has lived there for years as my personal guide whenever I visit.

Before I headed there this year, I of course did some reading and something

I noticed is the words that are used to describe this part of Ireland.

You see lots of cliches, like wild and remote appear in articles,

blog posts, and social media posts.

These descriptions are commonly applied to places that are considered rural.

I actually see these descriptions applied to my own province, Ontario all the time.

They might seem harmless.

But often these descriptions can play into misconceptions about places that we

ourselves don't live in or know very well.

Today I am chatting with Cassie.

Cassie lives in Glasgow, Scotland.

She hosts the Travel Podcast Wild for Scotland, and she writes the

blog, watch Me See, Cassie is Tired of the language that's used to

describe some regions of Scotland.

And so today we're going to unpack that and talk about the importance

of centering local voices and narratives in travel content.

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Erin, you actually just got back from Ireland as you mentioned.

Please tell me all

about it.

Oh my gosh, it was amazing.

I've been to Ireland a couple times.

It's one of those places that I just keep going back to, and a big reason

for that is that a close friend of mine, Megan, lag grandeur, lives in Ireland,

has lived there for almost a decade.

She's a super talented musician and has like, An amazing music

career going on in Ireland.

And so whenever I go and visit her, it's just so amazing because she just brings me

to all these beautiful spaces where people are playing traditional Irish music.

And I just, I love it so much.

Ugh.

Ugh.

It looked like such a fun trip.

It really was.

So I have to tell you that something special that happened.

So Megan and I always joke about how.

I have Irish heritage.

It's like such a Canadian thing all 'cause like so many Canadians have

Irish heritage and as most people know, like my mom is like very Dutch,

but my dad's side, you are like the

most Dutch person to me.

So I think because I grew up in a family where our Dutch heritage

like took up so much space.

My dad, like whenever he could get it in, he would be like, but remember

kids like we also have Irish heritage.

But so a little fact, when Irish people were immigrating to Canada, a

lot of the time when you arrived in Canada, they would ask you to remove

the O on the front of your name.

So my last name, which is Hines, I.

It originally would've been O Hines, and this was just one

of those immigration things.

When you really think about it, it's really shitty 'cause they're just

trying to get people to like conform to like Canadian norms at the time.

Um, so we had to drop the o I bring this up because.

The Hines clan in Ireland is a thing and has a lot of history, and there is a

castle that would've belonged to my clan.

Um, oh my God, that's amazing.

Did you go visit it?

I

did go visit the castle.

It was actually my second time visiting the castle.

I had to do it for my dad.

My dad needed that photo of me in front of the Hines castle.

It's actually called Dungu Castle, and it's in Canvera.

Okay.

That is so cool.

Is it empty though?

So like no one lives there, obviously.

Okay, so

then that means you have squatters rights there and can just claim it as your castle

technically, right, because it's fair.

It's a family heirloom.

I

would not be against that.

I don't know how comfortable it would be to like live in this castle because.

It was built in 1520.

I don't think it has great heating, but it's actually now been restored.

And they do, they do medieval banquets there.

So what would you say are the highlights of your trip then?

And also like would you suggest people travel there in general?

I mean, there's a reason I keep going back.

It's not just 'cause my friend is there.

I mean, that's a big reason.

Also, obviously my Irish heritage.

Mm-hmm.

I have to go back and your own

homestead there at this point.

But I do genuinely love everything about Ireland.

I think like an interesting observation from this past trip is that the struggles

that we are seeing here in Canada with inflation and the housing crisis are

very paralleled in Ireland right now.

I've very much noticed how much more expensive it is to travel there.

Now, when I stayed there in, I think it was 2016, I literally looked up

the receipt for my hostile dorm.

In hostile world, I had paid 15 euro for a bed in a dorm.

This time I paid almost a hundred euro.

Oh, that hurts my soul for bed in a dorm in Dublin.

So expensive.

So, That's like less than a decade that the price has like more

than quadrupled, which is wild.

And yeah, in talking with Megan, who you know has lived through this

inflation, she was just saying like, it's happening all over the country.

What I found interesting is I.

You would expect Dublin to be expensive.

Most cities like that, like the central cities, they tend to be more expensive.

Um, that's true here in Ontario.

But what was interesting is even after leaving Dublin and going out

to the smaller cities and towns, it was equally expensive there.

Like everything, everything from like a beer to a meal.

Was shockingly expensive, and I actually found that a lot of things were even

more expensive than they are here in Toronto, which is pretty nuts because

like Toronto's one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in.

Mm-hmm.

Actually, on that note, sorry, this might be a bit of a random question, but like

how does, how did the pricing compare?

To your trip to um, Iceland.

'cause we know that that's notoriously expensive.

But now at this point, everything seems expensive.

So,

yeah.

It's funny you bring that up because I actually told people after being in

Iceland that I didn't find Iceland.

That expensive.

Yeah,

I remember you told me the price of a beer was like kind of ridiculous.

Yeah.

But it was pretty close to what you play here in Toronto.

And I would actually say it was like on, like the prices are on

par between Iceland and Ireland.

Almost Iceland might be a Tadd more expensive, but I think

beers in Iceland were 10 or $11.

You like easily pay that for beer in Toronto and easily in Ireland as well.

So it's kind of interesting seeing this disruption in like.

These prices that like have historically been quite different.

But yeah, if you're going to Ireland, I guess this is a warning.

Just be warned, it will be expensive.

Just save up.

The best thing to do is to book in advance and book, especially your

accommodations far in advance.

Traveling in the off season is also better.

I also found.

'cause I was in Dublin twice on this trip, and the first time I was in Dublin,

I was there in the middle of the week.

And then the second time I was in Dublin.

I was there on the weekend and the price for accommodation was like very different.

So I think if you're flying into Dublin, going like in the middle of the

week, we'll save you a bit of money on accommodation and yeah, leave Dublin.

Just leave Dublin and see more of Ireland.

The West Coast is incredible.

This time I went to Dolan Cave, which I had never done before,

um, which is part of the Buren region, and it was mind blowing.

You climb like 125 steps down, which doesn't sound like a lot, but when

you're climbing down at, you're like, oh, we're going real deep.

Oh, yeah.

Oh yeah.

And they have Europe's largest stalactite.

Ooh, still lac.

I don't know how you say that word.

Stalactite.

It was cool though.

Okay.

The last thing I need to say is that if you go to the west coast

of Ireland, you need to go to one of the islands in Galway Bay.

Okay.

In Ashmore.

It is just, it was my second time on Inish More just amazing.

You take a ferry across, get yourself a bike if you wanna be bougie, do

what we did and get an electric bike.

It's really life changing and just cycle around this island.

Ugh.

I want to go back now.

Hi, Kathy.

Welcome to a pack of my bags.

Hi there.

Thank you so much

for having me.

Could

you start by sharing a bit about yourself and your work?

I moved to Scotland about 10 years ago.

I'm originally from Austria, from Vienna, and that's where I grew

up and lived most of my life.

And then I moved to Glasgow for university for my master's degree and.

I was only supposed to stay for a year and I'm still here.

I kind of just fell in love with the country and the people and the

landscapes and just life here in general, and found a way to make it work.

And over the years, Started exploring Scotland really in depth

and really turning my passion for travel into what is now my career.

I run a Scotland Travel blog and a podcast, and I also plan itineraries for

people who come and visit Scotland some for the first time or just wanting to

see something a little bit different.

Yeah, so I've made sharing my passion for Scotland into my job, and it's.

Been an amazing journey despite Covid, despite the pandemic.

It's been a fantastic journey over the last few years.

I traveled Scotland a couple years ago with a friend of mine who

coincidentally on that trip said to me, I think I need to move to the uk.

I.

And a year later he did.

And he hasn't come back.

It's been five years.

Shout out to Philip.

Um, so I guess you're not the only one who's been sucked into

the uk, Scotland, Ireland area.

'cause I know someone also who ended up living in Ireland.

She's been there for 10 years and is becoming a citizen.

There's something.

About this part of the world, and I get it.

'cause I have been many times and I'm obsessed, but I wish I'd known about

your blog when I was there because I feel like I missed a whole bunch of good

things when I was reading your blog.

There's always that return trip there.

That's never a bad idea.

I'm all about the return trips and I love that you're based in Glasgow.

I actually started my trip in Scotland, in Glasgow, and I remember people saying,

oh, why are you gonna go to Glasgow?

Because a lot of people skip it.

And my friend and I, who I was with, we both really loved the city.

We felt like it was such a great place to start the trip.

I was shocked that people don't like

it.

It's got a reputation that isn't always the best and.

That is rooted very deeply in history and kind of specifically the 20th century.

But it's a lovely place.

It's, there's so many cultures coming together.

There's a great music scene, great art scene, and you're

so close to the Highlands.

You know, when I go up onto my local hill, uh, on the edge of the city,

I can see the highlands and, uh, not entirely, but almost the ocean.

It's not too far.

So you're kind of in a perfect spot to, to explore from here.

Yeah.

So much of your work is focused around writing and podcasting about Scotland.

In your experience, what image would you say tourists coming to Scotland

have of the country before they arrive?

I guess like what are some common stereotypes about Scotland?

I.

It's funny because it's the exact opposite of what you might find in Glasgow.

You know?

You know it's kilt, it's bagpipes, it's haggis, it's highland cows.

Wherever you look, a lot of people have misconceptions about the food and

that it might be a bit boring or bland.

People might imagine.

Dramatic mountain ranges and you know, quaint, medieval towns, everything

kind of like, like it used to be hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

But not modern cities.

Not cities like Glasgow for example, where there's a lot of glass office

towers and you know, modern life.

Normal, modern life.

They might imagine small villages but not towns or, you know, ugly towns.

You know, we have ugly towns like everywhere else in the world.

It's a very kind of, Stereotypical way of looking at Scotland as a,

as a country of the his of history.

And of course it is.

There are, there's lots of history here and lots of historic sites and

beautiful medieval towns and villages, but there is also another site to it.

And I think that's sometimes that gets a bit lost, particularly thinking about how.

Instagram influences how we envision or picture other countries.

Scotland in particularly, I think is just seen or shown as this wild

place with dramatic nature, which again, it has, but it lacks that

nuance of what else is out there.

I.

It's interesting

you say that because I actually, as I was thinking about this episode,

I was thinking there's actually a lot of parallels between the way

that Canada is represented and the way that Scotland is represented.

'cause we're, this country is also often just highlighted

as being like wild nature and.

Wildlife and, but yeah, so countries having tourism identities is something

that we've talked about before on alpac.

My bags, um, I don't know if this is really a term, it's

kind of one I just made up.

I should Google and see if like other people are talking

about this as being a thing.

Um, but what I mean when I say tourism identity is the way that

media, whether it's that country's own tourism board, their dmo.

Bloggers and even social media influencers describe and frame a destination.

So, for example, last season we talked a bit about the

identity of Canadian tourism.

So when people promote Canada as a tourist destination, the focus is often, like

I mentioned, on nature and wildlife, um, as well as some quirky things

like poutine and Nanaimo bars, and of course the famous Canadian politeness.

But of course this isn't very accurate when you're thinking

about representing actual Canada.

So all of this said, I'm curious if you have thoughts on how and why

the tourism identity of Scotland is what it is, how it's become

that way, and what's contributed.

I.

It's so fascinating and I think that term is perfect.

So if no one else is using it, definitely claim that term about tourism identity.

I think it's, it just encapsulates that absolutely brilliantly.

I listened to that episode you did about the Canadian tourism identity, and it

did make me think back to my own trips to Canada and draw even some parallels

between, like you say, Scotland, Canada, in terms of what they're famous for,

what they're known for, but also.

Some of the issues around that.

Scotland has a lot of issues of exceptionalism and I think

in that way it might have some parallels with Canada as well.

You know, having a very dominant neighbor, um, that is dominating the

narrative of the region, has its negative connotations in that way as well to,

to make it easier maybe for a country like Scotland or Canada to brush over

some of these things in Scotland.

A lot of this comes.

From hundreds of years ago, you know, it has historic roots in the

Victorian area era particularly.

Um, going back to things like the jacobite risings collude and Battle

the Highland clearances times when being Scottish became a thing of.

Shame, uh, became a thing of oppression.

Scottish culture wasn't appreciated.

Scottish culture was oppressed and forbidden in many ways.

You know, speaking Gaelic, wearing clan tartan, wearing kilts, all these

things were oppressed by the English Union, by the, in the English crown.

And people were driven from their land and, and they had to move.

The coun away from the country.

They had to either leave Scotland entirely or they had to move

from the countryside to cities.

And I think those kinds of stereotypes really.

Come from that time where the actual cultural identity was

stripped away from people.

The ironic thing is that within a hundred years it came back, but in

a romanticized way through romantic novels, sir Walter Scott is a big

literary name that that promoted Scottish culture in the 19th century.

Uh, queen Victoria was obsessed with the Highlands and the beauty of the

Highlands and, and things like that.

So it became this.

Shell of itself almost through history and I think.

Even though a lot of it has been reclaimed and there are people who lean into it

with pride and a lot of these elements, whether it's tartan or whiskey or kilts

or Gaelic, are coming back in a very authentic and and national proud way.

There's still this element of, well, this is what people want and this is

what people expect, so we have to give that to them, and that's why there's

your tour guides in a kilt stepping off the bus and things like that.

I really resonate with what you just said because I'm thinking now about like a lot

of the quirky, sort of like funny aspects of Canada that people talk about, and I

wonder like if it's also a bit of this.

This drive to like wanna differentiate from the us It's like, oh, these are

these little things that we can say are different about Canadians, even

though like, realistically like Canada and the us like aren't that different?

I mean we are, but culturally we, there's a lot of similarities, but

it's like we're looking for these, these ways to differentiate ourselves

and often like they're just these sort of silly stereotypes, like the

poutine thing and the politeness thing.

But I'm curious how you and Scottish people, if you, if you can speak to

the experience of, of other people that you know, feel about this description.

It's weird and, and interesting for me to comment on this

because I'm not Scottish, right?

So I'm, I'm not from here.

I came here with very probably stereotypical ideas myself about what

Scotland would look like or be like.

Like I said, I think there's a lot of people who really lean into.

That identity and.

Because some of it has been oppressed for so long, like the Gaelic language.

That pride of leaning into these, these elements of scottishness

is very understandable.

But I think that line between where does it become a show for the tourists is,

is getting a bit blurred over over time.

But I think there's also a lot of people, especially the ones me maybe don't, don't

work in tourism or hospitality who are maybe a little bit embarrassed by the.

Almost backwards, resonating things that are associated with being Scottish.

You know, who won't wear a kilt, who are not interested in the Gaelic

language, or where police names came from, who are just not that engaged

with their own Scottish culture and.

Some might make that decision very consciously, and for others

it might also be an internalized issue of, of not appreciating the,

the value of their own culture.

So yeah, it's, it's all a big, big mess.

And of course, like it's hard to speak for like an entire nation

of people and how they feel

about this.

Absolutely.

So there might be Scottish people listening to this and

being like, what's she on about?

Who totally

disagree.

Well, I was really excited when you mentioned your interest in

chatting about romanticization of rural and remote destinations.

Mainly because being a writer and a creator in the travel space myself, this

is a trend that I notice all the time.

In travel blogs and social media, and I notice it about Scotland,

but I also notice it about my home province, Ontario, as well as

destinations all over the world.

I'm hoping you could share some examples of the kind of language

that you are describing and how to applies in places like Scotland.

It's one of those topics I think there is a lot of awareness

or increasing awareness.

Especially among travel writers when it comes to countries of the

global south or countries with recognized indigenous cultures.

Whereas when you're talking about a country like Scotland that does have

an indigenous culture with the Gallic people, But it's not quite the same.

So this, this, this element of romanticization as travel writers

becomes a lot bit harder to grasp, I think with Scotland.

But it is there and it's there whether it's specifically about

Scotland or just the wider region.

Um, just recently I listened to an interview with an

editor of a big publication.

Let's leave it at that.

And they were talking about islands.

And how nice it is to explore islands and I love going to islands, but she said

something that really jarred with me and that was that it just is great to get that

sense of being in the middle of nowhere.

And so she wasn't talking about uninhabited islands.

And even with those, I think you have to be really, really careful.

But it's that kind of language that suggests the absence of

human impact, whether that is positive or negative impact.

You know, whether that is the history of the people who've lived

there for thousands of years.

Or the history of the people who managed to somehow run these islands into

the ground and make them uninhabited.

That kind of language that pops up in Scotland, particularly in relation to, you

know, the Highland clearances and people being driven from their lands and I.

A culture being oppressed, that that is just, you know,

you can't just ignore that.

So that, that was one of those examples where she wasn't talking about Scotland.

But the same thing happens here, particularly after the pandemic, or you

know, at the backend of the lockdowns.

Rural destinations have kind of branded themselves as this

place to escape these wide open landscapes with hardly any people.

And you can get away and you don't have to worry about the virus and

you don't have to worry about.

Getting too close to communities or having a lot of people around you,

which to an extent is all true.

And some of these Destin, you know, some of these messages came from DS and and

tourism groups themselves, but it does again, kind of reduce that existence of,

of actually local communities and the people who live in these so-called rural

escapes, where that is just regular life.

I did a great interview with.

A woman who lives on the Isle of Canna, which is a small inhabited

island off the west coast of Scotland.

Only about 16 people live there.

So it is a very, very small community.

And she said one of the big misconceptions, and it's something that

a lot of people do when they just talk about islands, is that people think

that these small com commun that living in these small communities is really

calm and quiet and there's not a lot.

Going on.

Whereas the exact opposite is the case because with a fewer people, there's

fewer people who do all the jobs that need to be done in a small com

that keep a small community running.

So this, this idea of moving to an island to hide away from reality or

from busy life, it's just not a thing.

It's just doesn't exist.

And you know, I had to check myself because you internalize

these ideas of what it's like.

When you live in a big city, I've always lived in big cities.

I don't know anything different, but you do have to remind yourself that

that is just not really reality.

I feel like it's really easy to just say these descriptive words and not think

about the nuance of, of what's behind them and what they really mean, and I

think that's what I find happening a lot.

In travel writing, people will use these words without contextualizing

them based on history and like the reality of life in a place.

And part of it, I guess, is because they're not writing

for the people that live there.

They're writing to sell a place.

And so part of it is like, we wanna use this beautiful language

because we wanna sell to the reader that they wanna go to this place.

But it, I find it problematic because you're not selling reality.

And to me what's more interesting about travel is reality.

I don't wanna go to a place and like have a romanticized experience of it.

And I know this is cliche to say, but I would rather like really

experience it and like see the reality of a place versus like have

this like romanticized experience.

Mm-hmm.

And I think the two aren't mutually exclusive.

A place can be hauntingly beautiful.

And haunting at the same time.

Yeah, you can, you can describe how beautiful a location is or, or a

view, or a village or a landscape, while at the same time acknowledging

how it got to be the way it is.

One of my favorite places in the world is Glencoe.

The Highlands and one of the best known historic events at

Glenco is a terrible massacre.

And the two coexist, it's beautiful, but you, you have

to know what has happened there

as well.

Yeah.

I wanted to bring up a term that I've been thinking about a lot lately, and

I actually got in some fights with people on TikTok about this term.

It's the phrase undiscovered and hidden gem, and I just.

I find it really hard to explain to people like what I find problematic about it.

I guess what it is, is it seems harmless, but I really feel this like colonial

undertone in that kind of language.

Because the reality is if you're a tourist, if you're standing in

a place, the likelihood that you are the first person to discover

it or be there is incredibly low.

And I feel like there's a bit of erasure.

In using that phrase of like local people and especially indigenous communities

who have probably existed and known about this so-called Hidden Gem forever.

Mm-hmm.

Well,

I'm definitely guilty of using Hidden Gem, probably overusing it, but I

have, I have other terms that, and.

With discovering, discovering an area.

I'm, I'm with you 100%.

I try and avoid that as much as I can, or, you know, bring the context

in and say, I discovered something that was new to me or that you

might have not heard about before.

Mm-hmm.

Knowing who I speak to, but I

like that angle because that that is true.

Yeah.

And I think it, it, it acknowledges your position as the writer.

It doesn't pretend that.

It's a universal experience for everybody.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And you know, I should really go back and look at my blog 'cause I'm sure I've used

these words like I'm curious now because, you know, like I'm always learning and

when I first started blogging, I know that my travel writing was not good.

I relied on a lot of horrible cliches.

So yeah.

Now I'm curious and I wanna go back and look.

I think

we've, I think we've all been there.

Yeah,

but the re Should we make a whole episode about this, Erin, that's

just throwbacks to you reading blurbs

from your blog?

I mean, I'm hoping that I've gotten rid of them all by now.

That sounds terrifying.

Um, because I have a lot of anxiety about these things.

Um,

as long as you don't see your conquering a mountain, I think you're fine.

Okay.

But where I was going with this is I know that part of the reason we see this kind

of language is as a travel blogger we know for SS e o it's interesting because

those phrases often perform really well, um, for search, which tells me that

users like travelers are searching those terms when they plan to go somewhere.

Then I also see these terms used like sort of in clickbait ways on social

media, so clearly like people respond to this kind of language, which is

bringing me to my next question.

Why do you think people are so inclined to romanticize a

destination using this language?

Not just the authors of content, but the consumers of

content?

That's a really good question.

I'm probably one again, I can't answer for absolutely everybody, but when

you were talking there, I immediately thought there's probably a lot of

people who click on these things only to hate on them because they

know they're, you know, not good.

Yeah.

But I think there is an innocent sight to it as well, and I think it's about,

you know, that this kind of language isn't the most appropriate to use.

But, you know, loads of people are Googling it.

Loads of people use that language to, to find the information

that they're looking for.

I think the only way we can get them to where you and I are knowing that

this isn't appropriate is by meeting them where they are, which means

using that phrase to then hopefully explain to them or make them think,

just give them a, a seed of thought.

Why that isn't the best language to use.

So use it in your, you know, use it in your, uh, ss e o title and,

and in your keywords and whatnot.

But then use the space that you have to try and challenge people on it.

I believe in the good of people.

The majority of people have probably never thought about it before.

Just like, and I'm, I'm same as you.

I, I would probably cringe if I go back to all of my earliest blog posts and

I have revised many of them now that I've spent much longer in Scotland

because I didn't know any better.

It took years to kind of develop that kind of thinking and that kind

of critical thinking about how we.

Experience the world as travelers, as people who've moved to a

different country and lived there.

It's okay to be at that stage as long as you're willing to go and question that.

I love that strategy because it's one that I also use.

For example, I recently wrote a blog post about what not to do in Iceland,

and obviously I did competitor research.

I saw what other people were saying not to do in Iceland, and a lot of

it was sort of like basic things like don't take out cash because

you can pay for everything by card.

But then I made sure that my post was mainly about like responsible tourism

concepts, so like being good to nature.

Yeah, just sort of all the things that the other posts had missed.

And so I found a way in the blog to sort of like share this message of like, learn

some history, like be good to nature, do your research, and all those good things.

Katie, I think you have something you wanna say.

Thanks for teeing me up Erin.

I feel out of context now, but I was saying also, uh, isn't using the word.

Undiscovered in your SS e o then lead to it being kind of ironic that people are

searching for undiscovered locations.

Yes,

I love it.

I know the irony of promoting a hidden gem on the internet.

So we've talked a bit about stereotypes that people associate with Scotland,

but I'd like to squash them now.

So what would you say is a more accurate description of Scotland's

rural destinations and why do you think it's important that people

know about this reality, especially if they're planning to travel there?

So I think there is that element of natural beauty and the wild weather and.

Dramatic landscapes.

That is all very, very true.

And, and that's all there.

But the majority of Scottish people live in cities and they live in cities

in the central belt, which is Glasgow and Edinburgh and all the towns

and, and smaller cities in between.

Um, they're modern cities.

Even Edinburgh outside of the Old town bubble is a modern city.

Scotland is really, Pioneering in terms of design has been

since the late 19th century.

Uh, there's some great design museums and art schools and just modern

stuff happening all of the time.

But when it comes to rural destinations in Scotland, I think one thing that

always strikes me is, The amount of young people who manage to make a

living in these rural communities, and I say manage very consciously because

affordable housing is hardly in existence.

Jobs are hard to come by.

There's, you know, it's tough in many ways as a young person who doesn't have.

A huge financial cushion, uh, behind them to manage, to live in the rural

countryside rather than moving to the bigger cities where it's a bit more

affordable and easier to do that.

But what I'm always so impressed by is the amount of young people

who consciously make the effort.

To either stay or return or move to rural communities and do something to make those

communities more sustainable, more whole, not just environmentally sustainable,

but stronger communities and, and really building up that community around them.

There's some great businesses I've come across over the years,

you know, and arches to make.

Beautiful art to send around the world.

Lots of tourism businesses, of course, that I get in touch with because of my

work, but also other people who just make it work and who are really interested in

being part of communities and in creating.

A strong sense of community and place as well.

And I think that's something that doesn't get talked about enough and,

and that their ideas aren't always the, oh, I'll play the fiddle and

I'll weave some tartan and, you know, I'll have a hairy cow or whatever.

But it's, you know, it's graphic designers, it's people who do

incredibly interesting whiskey or gin.

It's just people who have ideas and see the potential that.

The rural communities can offer them, whereas maybe in cities, you,

you might get lost in, in the mass of people doing similar things.

And it's, it's that, that to me is what Scotland is all about.

And I know I live in Glasgow, but that's also what kept me

here, seeing an opportunity to create something for myself.

Um, And, and being part of the community, and I may not live

in the rural communities, but I work a lot with people rurally.

I think that, to me is the essence of what Scotland is about.

That's awesome.

And actually, you talking about design, like really reminded me of all the

museums that I went to in Glasgow and that entire time I, 'cause it was the first.

Few days I was in Scotland as well.

I was just blown away by how much art there was in the city.

And yeah, it's just such a shame that more people don't go and

explore that part of Scotland.

Yeah, and Glasgow is fantastic because most of those museums are also free.

That all goes back to Glasgow being the European City of Culture in 1990 or 91.

But a lot of these museums were.

Created around that period and very consciously made accessible to anyone,

freely accessible to anyone rather than charging, you know, 15, 17, 20 pound.

Um, there are places that people can actually go and use on a regular basis.

I am such a supporter of Free Museums.

'cause you know, in Toronto it costs like $30 to go to museum.

And my partner and I were talking about this recently actually because

we popped into the rom, which is a very famous museum in the city.

Awesome museum.

It's impossible to see everything in one visit.

And we were just saying it's just so financially inaccessible, like

especially if you are a family and you have children, one trip to the museum

that's like a hundred dollars and you'll only see a small portion of it.

So to really see the museum, you would have to go multiple times, pay

your entrance fee multiple times.

I just think it takes away from the experience because there's something so

beautiful about being able to just pop in.

Every once in a while and explore maybe one little corner of the museum with no

sense of urgency because you're not trying to like consume as much of it as you can

with the like couple hours that you have.

I could rant about this forever, but I've spent a lot of time in Dublin and

the museums are just, it's the same.

It's free.

I just would always love how like it would start to rain and so I'd just

look for the closest museum and go and pop in and it was just so lovely.

Let's petition for Canadian museums to be

free a.

So stereotypes exist about every destination, and of course that

leads to preconceptions as well as misconceptions about places.

So just in general, do you have any tips for how people can become

aware of the preconceptions and misconceptions that they might have?

Being open to examining your own beliefs and standpoints and.

Knowledge to an extent as well is really important, and I think that can

sometimes be hard to do before you travel.

Sometimes it happens on your trip or afterwards.

Even.

My best kind of strategy against it is always to read up on

a destination before you go.

Especially now that I write stories for my podcast as well.

I try and read a lot more books about the places that I actually visit and.

If I don't read books, then I read articles or you know, blogs

by locals, things like that.

And just really get particularly local perspectives on things and, and a and a

wider context of the history of a place and what some of the issues might be

that are very pertinent, but maybe not as obvious to a visitor and just kind of.

Sitting with that for a little bit, even if they make me feel uncomfortable.

You know, I've come across places where I, where you maybe think, oh,

should I really go and visit there?

Or is my impact gonna be negative about it?

So yeah, if you can catch that before, that's great, but if you can only catch it

while you're traveling, that's also fine.

I think staying longer in a destination to really immerse yourself and, and

having different experiences, meeting different people, and being able

to speak to different people about.

Their experiences, um, is a really good strategy to kind of just understand

what you think is true and what might not be true or what might be

different in reality or what might have different, just perspectives really

from, from other people, either reading uploads or then talking to locals.

I think those two are the, the, the best strategies I would, I would advise.

Definitely agree.

And I also find, 'cause sometimes people will say to me, oh, I, I

don't know how to talk to locals.

Like, how do you meet people?

How do you get into conversation with people?

I don't know.

Luke and I tend to find that like it happens organically, especially

for like eating in a restaurant or like popping into a bar.

Those are like really easy social environments.

To meet people, but I also have found staying in hostels is really good

for that because hostels often employ local people and they're often the

same age as us, so it's just like a really easy ground to meet on.

But I was also gonna mention just hiring guides for a day.

Going on some sort of tour.

We were just in Belize and we had an incredible day with an incredible guide

who just was so happy to answer literally every single question that we had.

And he said to us, he was like, all I can tell you is like my perspective

as like one Belize, but that's still one perspective we didn't have before.

So if you're nervous to chat with people, just hire a guide.

'cause they will definitely talk to you.

Absolutely.

I think that's one of the best ways to learn about, not just a

destination, but also just the reality of living in that place.

In Scotland, it's very easy, particularly in Glasgow, just go to

the pub, you know, sit at the bar.

I know it's a stereotype that the Canadians.

Deal with as well.

But people here are incredibly friendly and they just wanna know why

you chose to come to their country.

Yeah.

They want to talk to you.

Of course, not everybody, but I've hardly ever gone to a, to a

pub in Glasgow and not had a chat with someone I didn't know before.

So,

yeah.

It's, I can confirm it's, I had those experiences as

well, especially in Glasgow.

'cause I think, like does Glasgow generally get less

tourists than Edinborough?

Much less.

Much less.

'cause I remember noticing, oh, people really wanna talk to us here.

Yeah, it's increasing now, but it's a very different vibe.

Than Edinburgh and, um, fewer tourists and people are just

surprised anyone has an interest in their, in their city, and they're

passionate to tell other people about

how amazing it is here.

Okay, so I also wanted to talk a little bit about solutions that

apply to people who might be writing about or sharing their travels.

And I say sharing their travels because obviously like bloggers and

social media influencers like we.

I would hope most of us think about the ways that we're portraying a

destination, but I think like just sort of your average tourist forgets

sometimes that even if they have like 150 followers on Instagram, when you

send out a post, you're still sending out information and perspective about a place.

And so I actually think that like these tips apply to everyone, whether

you're writing a caption or even just like an email to your family or your.

A blogger with a million followers.

So how would you say people should write about the specifically remote

destinations that they visit?

Are there like specific words that you say would say should be avoided or just

sort of like best practices to follow?

So there is a word that I absolutely loathe and I try to never ever

speak it, but I'm gonna say it now and that is the word wilderness.

Um, which is very often applied to the Scottish countryside and

the highlands and the islands and the coast, and it is just fantasy.

The highlands are not wilderness.

The highlands are very much manmade.

The fact that there are no trees covering most of Scotland is manmade.

That's not natural.

So wilderness is a word that I think if you use it, it has to be

accurate and it very often isn't.

Because people have an impact on the landscape.

Even if it's not directly growing and fell a tree, they might have drained

a swamp or built a dam, or who knows.

Um, so I think wilderness is, is.

Is a tricky word to use and I avoid like the pest.

Um, and then, you know, any language, and I'm sure this doesn't come as surprise,

any language that erases the existence of people or the impact of people.

So describing a landscape as empty or undiscovered as, uh, you

mentioned that kind of language just is really problematic.

I think when we talk about an area that.

Is inhabited or used to be inhabited, um, at the very least.

And, and so making sure that you acknowledge that in the way you talk about

landscapes, you can describe it, but.

Be, try and be accurate and try and, and, and acknowledge

people in the landscape as well.

People live here adding historical and cultural context and I know

not everybody is super into reading books or learning about dates or,

you know, famous people of the past.

I myself used to be like that.

I was not, not very interested in history, but I think when you look at history

in the broad brush strokes of humanity, That's where it gets really interesting,

where you realize the connections between you, what happened 300 years ago and what

happens today or how a landscape looks.

So try and challenge yourself and do learn a bit about the history and the cultural

context of a place and bring that into the way you talk about it or share about it.

And.

Don't just use a place as your playground basically, but really engage

with all aspects of the destination, um, in a, in a meaningful way.

And, In a sense also thinking carefully about which areas to promote.

This is something that comes up often and I think can be quite tricky to

decide because you don't wanna gate keep.

You don't wanna be a gatekeeper who, who keeps destinations to yourself or

locations to yourself or hikes hidden from people so no one else can enjoy

them or not too many people enjoy them.

So you don't wanna go that far, but.

When I think about what areas to disclose and share about on my social

media or in my podcast or my blog, I think about how accessible are they,

um, with an increased number of people negatively impact that location.

Is there enough parking?

Is there local businesses nearby that I can mention as well?

And see if you like this hike, go here.

So it's, it is really about bringing in.

That thought process of how can I make sure that if I recommend this place and

there's 10, a hundred, a thousand people who visit it in the next month, how can

that benefit the environment, but also the people who are, who live locally to

there and not just the person who visits because it needs to be beneficial for

everybody in order to be sustainable.

I totally agree, and I love your point about thinking about.

The infrastructure of a place and whether or not it can actually

support an uptick in tourism.

And I also sometimes think about like, is it safe to tell people to come here?

For example, I went to a hot spring in BC that was quite hard to get to.

It involved driving down logging roads for.

Nearly an entire day and I decided not to write or post about this online because I

thought, I don't know that people aren't gonna hop in their little hatchback

car and try to drive down this road and end up in the middle of the woods.

Without a spare tire.

But I think what bothers me is when people will post about a place, but

not geo, take it and then not share anything about it and just say like,

oh, look at this beautiful place.

But I won't tell you about like, if you're not gonna share about

it, then don't share about it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I agree with that.

And I think that's where the gatekeeping comes in and I think mm-hmm.

It, it can be quite tricky to find the right balance with.

Showing a moment of joy, but at the same time, not.

Excluding anybody consciously.

Okay.

So I can't have you on this podcast and not ask you for tips.

So we're opening it up to hear your top Scotland tips.

The floor is yours.

This is

impossible.

Um, so I think, I think my first tip just visit Glasgow.

So many people skip it and they think there's nothing

here to see because there's.

No medieval castle in the city center.

There is actually a medieval castle in Scotland, uh, in Glasgow.

You know, there's a lot of places in Glasgow that are fantastic

that aren't as well known.

Um, but even just the top attractions are just so much fun to visit and

such a diverse range of things to do.

The people are lovely.

The pubs and the food are great, fantastic life music, both traditional and.

Any other genre you can think of?

It's a very international city.

Um, Scotland isn't a particularly diverse country overall, but Glasgow is the

most diverse city in within Scotland.

And then you also have a lot of international students, so there's loads

of people from all over the world coming to together, which means great food.

You know, lots of events that, that are happening.

So yeah.

Definitely come and visit Glasgow.

I want everybody to experience it and I've hardly met anyone who didn't love it.

One of my favorite places is called the Hanoi Bike Shop.

It's a Vietnamese restaurant.

It was recently bought over, but they are saying they're gonna keep

it the same way it is, so fingers crossed it will stay the same way.

They make their own tofu and they do kind of tapa style Vietnamese food.

So it's really fun to go there with a few friends.

And share loads of dishes and, and it's just brilliant.

I love that place.

And when it comes to Scottish food, there's a lot of really good restaurants.

One of my favorite places is called Babi Tea Bower.

Which is actually more of a pub.

You know, it's pup food.

It's not super fancy, but it's good Scottish food.

And most days in the afternoon they have an open music session where locals

can come and play trap music together, and I think anyone can join in.

I don't play an instrument, so I've never tried, but it's just such a

nice atmosphere because you sit in this pub with really big windows,

really bright and airy, great food, good drinks, and you've got.

Just random people sitting around a table playing fiddles and drums

and the guitar, and it's just the most quaint experience you can have.

And you're in the middle of a big city.

So that's, that's one of my favorites.

Oh,

you're making me wanna come back to Glasgow.

I actually remember too, having really good Indian food in Glasgow.

Oh,

there's great Indian foods.

Well, Kathy, thank you so much for joining us.

It's been such a pleasure to chat with you.

Before you go, could you let everyone know where they can find you and your work?

Yeah, so you can find my podcast Wild for Scotland, anywhere

you listen to podcasts really?

And my Scotland blog is called Watch Me see.com.

Um, s e e and I use both of those handles on social media as well, although more

watch me see than my podcast social media, which I feel a bit guilty about.

But yeah, you can find me on, watch me see most days on Instagram.

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I'll packed to my bags is written and hosted.

By me, Erin Hines, and it's produced and edited by Katie

Lore in Canada's Toronto area.

Our same music is Night Stars by Wolf Saga, David r Mekel,

and the Chippewa Travelers.

If you wanna reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.

All right pals.

We'll be back in two weeks with another episode that unpacks how we

can travel in a way that is better for people and for the planet.