: Hey, before we get started today, gotta ask this question. Have you signed up for Man Camp yet? You haven't? What is your problem? Come on, man, get your rear in gear. October 20th to 22nd, thousands of men are gathering in Southeast Ohio for a two-day off-the-grid camping experience. It's not just a life-changing weekend, it's a lot of freaking fun. No experience is necessary. This man camp is shaping up to be our biggest yet. Maybe our best yet. And I really don't want you to miss out. Many of us just wait to the last minute. And that's fine. You've waited the last minute. You're waiting the last minute. That's fine. The time to move is now. Men are to be aggressive. We're not to wait for things to happen to us. We are to push things forward. We're to push our life forward. This is one of the ways I'm convinced you can actually push your life forward. Don't wait. for God to get a potential hold of your life. Don't wait for things to make sense in your life. Don't wait to just get over your bruises and pains. Get someplace where those things are in high likelihood to be addressed and happen. It happens for thousands of dudes, thousands and thousands and thousands of guys. So I would love to see you there. Get your tickets at ManCamp US before registrations close on September 4th. That is mancamp.us. before September 4th. I'll see you out there. Welcome to the Aggressive Life. This is five marks of summer. It's a series we're doing the entire month of August. I am really looking forward to what we're doing here over the next several weeks. Each week, we're going to dive into one of the five marks for man, dissecting the content, and featuring guests hand-chosen by moi, or dirt, as well, to push you forward, whether you're a male or a female, familiar with the marks or not. this is for you, I think you're gonna get pushed in a really healthy way, I think you're gonna like it a lot. I like it a lot. When my son was born, I knew I needed a way to help him raise him from a boy into a man. He was born, they put him on the changing table coming right out of my wife's womb. He set a stream of urine up in the sky that hit my elbow and rolled down my forearm and I thought, man, this is an omen of things to come. If this guy treats me the way I treated my dad, he's going to piss all over me. And so I realized I got to do something different for him to try to help him than, um, that my dad didn't know to do. And so I've kind of been in a lifelong quest to understand manhood. What is it? The boys need, what is it that men need? What makes a boy from a man? What is the differences? I don't want to really talk about the differences between men and women. I like the differences between boys and men, and they're not anatomy things. They're character things. And today we're going to begin with this, Mark, that men take a minority position. I'm excited about the content today. And I'm excited, Dirk. We've actually got, we got somebody actually in the studio today. Live in the flesh here. Live in the flesh. You know, the aggressive life as it's grown and people have been listening to it more and more, we've kind of popped on the radar screen with a bunch of places where we're endlessly getting contacted by publicists who want us to have their guests on who's published this or done that or whatever, which is fine. We, we actually get some good ones. Sometime we actually turn down a good number of requests that are really well known, famous people, but we don't think the fits the path of the aggressive life. Today is really cool because we weren't contacted by a publicist. It's not that somebody pitched this up. homegrown actually in the studio here is a friend of mine that I've known for, how long have we known each other now for? Oh my gosh, it's got to be north of 20 years. Yeah, a long, long time. Otis Williams, welcome to the aggressive life. Thank you. First time I met Otis is he probably doesn't even remember it. I had a buddy of mine who said, who's this world renowned speaker, won Toastmasters International. He beat 10,000 other opponents to claim the Toastmasters World Champion of Public Speaking title. He says, he's going to be at the local convention center. I bought you a ticket. Do you want to come? I said, yeah, sure. I went, and there you were. I was, that was, yeah, that was 20s, that was over 20 years ago. and saw you and was inspired by you. One of the things you said, it's almost become cliche since then. People have heard it, but I'd never heard it before then. You said, if you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space. I love that. If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space. You were there. Yeah, I was there. Heck yeah, I've heard other people say that since. in a different way, but you're the first person to put it that way. I was like, wow, that is aggressive. That is just utterly phenomenal. So what's going on with you then in the speaking gig? Is that your thing right now? It's not, it isn't right? Or is that still what you're doing? Tell us about that. It's a little bit of what I'm doing. It's more coaching now than anything and still the speaking opportunities come up workshops and seminars and things of that nature. So that's where I'm playing in the sandbox right now. And are you making money at it? Yeah. It's some money's coming in. Lights are staying on. Wife is happy. So what does that look like? If you want to be a motivational speaker, which you are, if you want to be a speaker, if you're fully in that gig, are you just sending out emails to whoever, hey, do you want me to come speak to you? Are you hiring publicists? Do you like, what are you doing to get that going? Yeah, well, a lot of it right now has shifted because I've been in the game for, man, since 1993. So man, wow, 30 years. And it used to be that. And there was this. thing called magnetic marketing, Dan Kennedy, where you actually attract, you know, the opportunities coming to you now. But now it's more social media and things of that nature. So that's what's happening around. The field is huge, right? Everybody's saying, hey, you've got a story to tell, somebody will pay you for your story. So it's a really crowded field right now. And so the cream rises to the top. And so if you actually have something to say and you say it well, and it helps to transform people's lives. people hear about you and then they request you. Okay. So you're not getting much requests right now? Or? You said cream rise the top. Or it's that you're black and cream is white. So you can't. It's like coffee. So it's not a lot of requests right now. Cause that's, I haven't turned that switch yet. So I am. So there's a concept, a lot of times people don't move forward because they don't know what to do. Right, Brian? And so the question is not, what do I do? The question is, who can do it for me? So it's not a question of what. Because some people, I don't know what to do. Well, you don't have to know what to do. Hire somebody. Who can do what you need to be done? So I'm in the process of looking for somebody who's really good at social media and can take what I'm doing and, boom, make it happen. It's a hard gig. I tried to do some of that corporate speaking stuff. a few years ago, like hired a publicist. And I just thought, gosh, it'd be great to have some extra income on the side and all that stuff. And COVID hit. And I got like zero, zero takers. So I don't know if it was COVID or just no one wanted the pastor thing. Or you've got some stripes that I don't have, like Army Ranger. And you're definitely a better speaker than me. So I've kind of made my piece that I'll go and speak with someone if they want it. But it's a. It's a tough gig, isn't it? It is. It's a hard way to make an easy living. Where you went to the next level with me, Otis is part of the church that is my day job. And I don't know, we had breakfast a couple times early on when he was coming to Crossroads. And then I hadn't seen you for a long time. You were around, I assume, it's the big church, hasn't seen you in a long time. And then coming into man camp. I like to get a heckle heckler's corner. I call it. And so everyone's walking in and I just crack on guys and make fun of their gear. And she's doing, yeah. Say inappropriate things. All of that stuff. It's rich. It's something we can't say on the podcast. Completely right. But if you come to man camp, you're going to hear it right. Cause you're not going to cancel me. If you hear it at man camp, you might cancel me here. But I saw you walk in, I was like, oh gosh, Otis, I had the bullhorn, I said, Otis, get ready, sometime this weekend, I'm gonna call you up to speak. I'd only heard you speak once, it was long, long earlier at that event that I mentioned earlier. Man, that's exactly what you said, dude. Was exactly? That's exactly what you said, yeah. And then, you know, and then there's a couple thousand guys at man camp normally, tents all over the place, it's not like I can go and. find you and say, no, here's something, here's what time it is, yada, yada. I just got up in one of the sessions and I went, okay, I talk with Otis. He's here. I just told him he was going to speak at some point. So Otis, this is your shot. Get up here. Exactly. That's exactly how it happened. You can, how long did you speak for? It wasn't, it was pretty short. It was, I think you gave me five, 10 minutes, something like that. Yeah, it was something like that. And it was freaking awesome. It was awesome. And so then the next man camp. I said, I got to just make a slot for him, a whole thing, and tell him. And so I gave you the last slot. And wow, I think that's when I really became impressed with you. You shared some things that the standard motivational speaker would not share. You had a level of vulnerability, a level of tenderness. I mean, you were hardcore in people's faces. We left there like we were b----. breathing jet fuel. But man, you talked about your brokenness. And I was like, okay, that's off script. Otis just went up into the level forest. Do you mind taking us back there and talking about what you talked about or whatever piece of it you want to? Yeah. So if, if what I'm thinking of is, I think you're talking about my gambling story. Yeah. So, so I talked about, so it was, it was really interesting, right? Brian, because the first time I told that story was at vet camp. Which is before man camp. Okay, and it was a small smaller group, but it was my brother's right and Just there's a special bond among veterans and so I was just walking the grounds before and I was asking the Lord you know, how do you want to use me what do you want me to say things of that nature and In my spirit the gambling story kept coming up and I was like really you really want me to tell the story and so I was trying to negotiate right like I don't really want to tell the story and so I ended up telling the story and it seemed to set a lot of brothers free, right? And so I said, okay, great. I'm done with the story. I told it. And the same thing happened when you said, hey, I want you to, you got your Sunday slot, whatever you want. I trust you. You did that thing. And the same thing happened. I was like, oh my gosh. Do you know how many men are here? It's different than, than bed camp, right? We're talking thousands of men now versus hundreds. You don't have the common bond of all of us serving in the military. Therefore you might be thinking these folks are more judgmental, all that stuff. Yeah. So I, so God won again, of course he's going to win, right? If you give over to him and that's part of a minority position, right? Just hearing the voice of God and then moving out and then carrying out your mission. So I told the story and do you want me to Tell the story. Do whatever you want. We've got so much to cover here in our short time. And it just dawned on me, this was an aggressive move that you made doing this, making this call. And then I also thought, gosh, gambling is only increasing. And those of us who haven't placed a bet on MGM.com or DraftKings or all those things are really in the minority. And by the way. By the way, I'm not anti-betting on football games on your app. It might be a bad idea. You might be able to talk about that. It's more, I recognize that I'm not doing that. I'm kind of like in a minority. And that's what you do as a man. Not that everyone's going to make the same decision, but you've got to be comfortable that you're not doing things that others are doing, and you're doing things that others are not doing. Yes, exactly. So I think whatever depth you want to go in the gambling story, I think would give us some. you know, encouragement of how God heals brokenness and also some sense of how life doesn't always go well and also how you've made, we had a guy I'm working with who is having some gambling problems and you gave me some aggressive counsel for him to do and he's done those things. Anything you wanna share in there, however deep or much time you wanna take, that's great. This wasn't supposed to be the agenda for the whole time, but whatever you wanna do with it. All right, so I'm gonna do it. You cut me off if it gets too much or if you wanna shift. So I attended a weekend, a man's retreat weekend, it's called the Mankind Project. And this was back in 2013. It was a three day event, sort of like ours, little different. And so on my way back, and this was in April, so April of 2013, I'm coming through. It was in Indiana, I think it is. I'm coming through Indiana where the Hollywood Casino is. And I pull over and I stop, I enter the casino. And I had been playing a little bit of poker online. It wasn't betting, it was just an app that you could play for free. And it was just, and it just got me. And so I said, I'm gonna try this out. So I placed my first bet April of 2013 at the Hollywood Casino in. in Lawrenceburg, Indiana. There we go. Lawrenceburg, Indiana. And that's the worst thing I could do for me. Absolute worst thing. Because that opened a floodgate, Brian, that just, I just got sucked in like a vortex, my man. It was horrible. I am, I went to counseling and everything after this, but. Was it first best that you win or you lose your first bet? It was both. I mean, I stayed for about an hour. And won a couple of hands. Okay, let me do this. I left losing. I won a couple of hands while I was at the table. That got me excited. I played some more money, played some more bets, but I ended up leaving with nothing. Okay. Right? And so, a little bit of this is I am in the 2%. Okay, right? I'm in the 2% who cannot gamble. Right? So here's what's interesting. I went to counseling after this and I'll tell you the story in a minute, but I went to counseling after this to work on this. And because the cost was just very painful. I lost my job. Thanks for going to this. This is uncomfortable to tell. You told this twice that I know of now. It's uncomfortable to tell. It's uncomfortable to relive. It is. So we didn't come in here. You sang. expecting me to ask you about this. So I appreciate you rolling with it. But you know what? You're a professional speaker, toast master champion. I believe you can do it. Oh, yeah. So I started gambling. I bought books. I mean, because when I go into something, I'm 100 percent. So I'm buying books. I'm at Half Price Bookstore, figuring out how to how to do this thing. How to what are the hands look like? How do I do all this stuff? So I've got. 40, 50 books on poker. I'm studying. I'm at the casino. downtown now at the casino and I'm playing and I'm losing and I'm winning and all this kind of stuff. I'm working a job Let me just be totally transparent. So I'm working as a professor at Cincinnati State one of our colleges here our community colleges and So after I ran out of my money This is where it gets painful, right? So I'm using my money to gamble. So I would, and I'm thinking I'm going to win, right? Brian and I'd win sometimes and the enemy said, Hey, you won, let's go back. Right? So then I, my next step was I was taking out loans. So I went to get a tooth. I know you're shaking your head. It's bad, dude. So I went and I got a $2,000 loan that you had to make sure you monthly payments and they sign you up on all of that kind of stuff. It was for two years, $2,000. I took the $2,000 while I took the check. road down the street, they said, you can cash it down here at this bank. I went to that bank, cashed it, went to the casino, lost everything in one day. Now I got a monthly payment for two years for that money that I lost in a day. At a low interest rate, probably just 2%. Oh yeah, right. Oh, you know what the interest rate is. So here's what's interesting, Brian, I did that twice. My wife didn't know about it. I did it twice, right? So then I ran out of money again. So I'm like, I got it. But I'm not, I don't have a problem, Brian, right? I'm not addicted. I don't have a problem. I'm just, you know, learning how to play this game. So then I started taking books. And once you learn how to get this game, you're gonna get that money all back once you learn how to do it. That's part of it, right? And so then I started taking books from the college and I'd sell them. And... that went on so long. Now watch this, I was in the business department. So the Dean of the college, people were saying, my books are coming up missing. And I was like, mine too. Cause I had sold mine. Right? So everybody's book, I'm taking everybody's books, right? And taking them down to this guy and selling them, taking that money and going to play poker. And so the Dean came to me one day, he said, you know what, we're going to figure this out. I want you to be in charge of getting the camera system. up here in our department so we can find out who's taking these books. Now, isn't that ironic? The guy who's doing the stealing, he's asking to... And I was like, yeah, sure. So I call everybody, I get them, I say, where are you going to place them? What's happening? Tell me how they work and stuff like this. And so he's doing all of that. And so now the cameras are up. So I have to navigate around the cameras. But I knew how to do that. Because you're in charge of the project. Because I'm in charge of the project, right? So I'm still taking some books. And so what I didn't know was they, every once in a while, they would come in and change the cameras, change the direction of the cameras. I didn't know that. So my wife and I are in Chicago. I was working on my PhD at the time. We're in Chicago. And I get a call from the dean. And they said, we need to see you in the office right now. I'm like, well, I'm in Chicago. And she's like, well, when are you getting back? I'm like, I'll be back in a couple of days. As soon as you get home, come to the college. I'm like, wow. And in my spirit, instantly I knew what it was about. And I had told my wife and stuff like that. So I go back and I go to the human resources, the dean is in there and then another gentleman is in there. And a guy I had never seen in my life, Brian, never seen him at all. He's got a computer screen that's faced to him. And the dean says, do you know why you're here? I said, I'm pretty sure I know why you're here. And so she turned it over to this guy and he says, we have some footage that looks, I said, stop. I said, you don't have to show me the footage. You don't have to tell me about it. It's me. I'm the guy on the film, still in the books. He was like, wow. And so we went through that and they said, you can, we can fire you or you can resign. I'm like, when? They were like, right now, today, like now. So I resigned and I said, well, can I go get my stuff? No, you can't go get anything from your office. And so they had, it's like in the movies, right? They had police escort me out to my car with what I had and I was off. And it was just absolutely, just horrible, man. And so I was telling my wife, we were talking about this, I don't know, a little bit the other day and she helped reframe my thinking because I was... just moving down a bad place around this. Because I was working on my doctorate, I was dissertation away, all I had to do was my dissertation. I was so involved in gambling, I didn't finish that. We almost lost our house. We almost lost our marriage. I mean, it was just, it was bad, dude. And all this time I am thinking, I don't have a problem. So I'm talking to my counselor and he was like, well, I said, I don't have a problem. I just, you know, I like it. I like the out thinking another person. And I was trying to be really rational, really logical. And he says, you know, I am a counselor who works with addicts. So what you're saying to me, I've heard several times. He says, so let me, may I share with you? And I was like, okay. He said, I'm gonna ask you a series of questions. I want you to answer them, honestly true. I said, okay. So he says, have you ever gone to the casino and said, I'm going to spend a couple of hours here? Are you, you designated the time and you stayed over that time? Yeah, I've done that. Okay. But you don't have a problem. Nope. Don't have a problem. Okay. Have you ever gone to the casino and said, you're going to spend X amount of money and spend more? Yes, I've done that, but you don't have a problem. Okay. Have you ever gone to the casino and we're winning. So your winnings were up. You thought you should leave, but you didn't and lost everything. I said, yeah. He was like, but you don't have a problem. Have you ever borrowed money? So he's taking me down this line and I, and it just was just like body blow, body blow headshot, body blow. He was like, son, you have a problem. You are one of those unfortunate few who cannot gamble. He says, most of the time what happens is people. their drug of choice they put in them, right? So if somebody's smoking weed or smoking dope, they have to take it and put it in their body. If they're shooting up, they have to take it and put it in. He says, you're in a very bad position because your drug of choice is in your head. It's dopamine, and you don't have to put it in. It's right there. Every time and he said dude, you've got a guard against this or it's gonna be a bad way for you Which that dynamic is why porn can be addictive. Yeah, it's not that you're ingesting Right, you know paper with images on it. That's me. It's it's this hit that's going your brain chemistry. Yeah Well, and you've come out of it pretty well. Oh, we are right now. Yeah, so I am at it's now it's 2016 I'm at the casino, I lose everything. I mean, like, here's what happened. I would spend, I would get paid, my money would go into my account, I would spend all of that, and then you couldn't get more money until the next day. So I'm standing at the ATM at 12 o'clock waiting for it to turn 1201. so I can get more money. Turns 1201, Brian, I withdraw all the money I can, go right back to the table and lose it all. So I'm exiting, I'm feeling guilt, shame, all those things. So I'm exiting the casino and God says, have you had enough yet? And I'm thinking, yeah, so I was past the guy who looks at you when you come in, so I'm almost at the door and God said, let's get this under control, go ban yourself. I didn't want to do that because I like gambling. So I go back to the guy, I said, excuse me, what do I need to do if I want to ban myself? He said, excuse me? I said, if I want to ban myself from the casino from gambling. He says, hold on one second. So he calls manager and all that stuff. So two guys come up, get me and take me to this room downstairs in the basement. Sit me down. I'm reading all this stuff. They're asking me all these questions. Are you sure you want to ban yourself? I was like, yeah. So how long? Do you want to do a year? Do you want to five years? Or do you want to do life? And I said, I want to do a lifetime ban. And so it's interesting because they're trying to. talk me out of a lifetime ban, right? And I get it, but I'm like, nope, I want a lifetime ban. They said, all right, so then how tall, you know, all that kind of stuff, you have any tattoos, all this kind of stuff, so if we ever see you here, you're trespassing and things of that nature. So I banned myself. And so that- And is this a law that all consumers have to abide by? Yes. It is. Well, no, if you- If you're in a certain, so there are different owners of different casinos. Okay. So whoever owns, I think it was Hard Rock at that time. So whoever owns that chain, you can't go to that casino. Okay. Even if it's a different name in a different state or something like that, I think. Right. So I did that. It's doing really well. I don't know, a couple years later, I had to itch, right? And so I'm thinking, I can do it. I can do it. So I go back and this one wasn't long, right? I go back losing again. And then I remember, right, Brian, I'm at the table. I lose, you know, I push all in, I lose. So I'm going to go get some money. So I'm standing at the ATM and just as clear as I'm talking to you, I hear, go home, just go home. And I had my ATM card in my hand, getting ready to put it in. It's like, just call it, go home. And I took my card, put it in my wallet, and I left, and I've never been back. Good for you. Never been back. And I told my wife. And she is just, she's amazing, right? I mean, she had every right to leave or whatever, because I was on the verge of just destroying everything. Right? Yeah. But she stuck with me and that's been great. And here's what's beautiful, man. It's a little bit of choked up, is I am now back in charge of our finances. She trusts me that much. Sweet. All of it, right? And I thank her periodically for that. And she gets nervous periodically. This is funny. My CCW Concealed Carry permit. expired. I did everything online and then you have a downtown appointment. And so if you know, the sheriff's office or the justice center is right next to the casino. Oh, right. Yeah, they're right close right. So she's like, you're going downtown? I was like, Yeah, I'm going to test. She's like, She's like, don't do anything stupid. Don't go to the bad place. I'm like, sweetheart, I got... And so I go down, I text her, you know, all that kind of stuff, let her know. Then I come right back and she was okay, but she was nervous. She says, I was just, I was so nervous. I was so nervous, because the pool, right? But she's been amazing. Just, she's everything, right? She's everything that God called for me, right? She's wonderful, man. When our spouses have a level of pain or difficulty, it puts a level of trauma on your spouse that is really hard to categorize. Because they're kind of the innocent bystander, but they're dealing with it. And that's interesting because I would argue with her sometimes when I was still fighting this thing. I was like, I'm the one with the addiction. And she says, yeah, but I'm catching the fallout. Yeah. I'm in this thing just like you. I haven't left. I'm staying right here, but I'm catching the fallout, Otis. I'm catching it too. It's impacting me. Maybe not the same as you, but it's impacting me. Well, what I'm impressed with you in this story and why I think it fits into the general thing we were trying to do today, which is minority position, is a boy, one of the differences between boys and men is boys have to be in the majority. Boys have to be constantly affirmed that they're where the smart people are. Boys, they don't want to step out. They need the masses, right? And that also means that we probably can't be vulnerable, because if we're going to be vulnerable, not a lot of people are vulnerable. You never get dinged for vulnerability. But on the front end, before you've actually become vulnerable, everything inside you says, no, don't do this. No one else is talking about this stuff. No one else is doing it. You talking about this with such a minority move, I find it inspire, it inspires me on a similar note with gambling, I like to gamble. I don't gamble very often. Cincinnati, I just know most of people in Cincinnati's casino shouldn't be there. They can't afford to lose a couple hundred bucks, right? Go to Vegas, people with conventions, they can afford to lose some money. I went up in Vegas for something. I stopped and I played some blackjack. So I'm not anti gambling, but I was just thinking about this last Super Bowl who I was watching the game with. Every guy had their draft Kings, their app open, making bets on, you know, making bets on is gonna be a punt this possession, which I always thought the bets were just who wins or loses. It's ongoing endless, which I didn't know. How many... Possessions without a score. What's his possession going to be? A first down, a punt, a field, you know, and it was on nonstop. So I was like, I want to be in the fun. So I jumped in, tried to get the app and it just, whatever it was, I couldn't figure it out. And I thought, boy, a small way, I'm kind of like taking a minority position here. Not that I'm taking a stand morally against this, but I'm kind of the odd guy out because I'm not placing bets. And that just doesn't feel good, you know? You want to be like everybody else. Do you feel extra pressure now with with how over the last two years in the NFL, just the, it's just skyrocketed the level of gambling. Yeah. So here's the weird thing. And I talked to my counselor about this. My, my, my drug of choice for my addiction is poker. Period. Okay. It's not lottery tickets. It's not apps. I don't have an app on my phone. That's never bothered me. Blackjack roulette. None of that has bothered me. It's one thing and it's poker. Um, so I don't have any, now I'm not, is that's not to say if I started playing blackjack or something like that, that it wouldn't kick, but I've played a few times, doesn't interest me roulette. Will it's just poker. So I can be around people who are gambling and using their apps and stuff like that doesn't bother me at all. Doesn't bother me at all. Interesting. How much is your, your training from the army Rangers? I hope you with this is a totally separate or the mentality of being a ranger, which is one of those higher physical caliber discipline kind of sectors of the military. Did that mindset cause you to be more prone to this addiction or that mindset cause you to be more prone to being able to kick this addiction and do the hardcore things or not really at all? So I draw on all of that stuff to fight. Right. And so the stuff you go through is an airborne and all that kind of stuff, airborne paratrooper ranger, all that stuff. You, it's, it's not what normal people do. So you have to have a certain mindset. You have to push yourself beyond different things. And so that is part of what's helped me get through it. And I was like, man, if I could jump out of perfect good airplanes, I can get this thing under control. Now, let me be really clear, not, by the strength of my own power, not by Otis Williams, right? So that's that other stuff that people preach and teach. But with God and the Holy Spirit, I can do it, right? I can't do it by myself. I can't do it in and of myself. I have to have help. And that's a minority position, right? Because as a man, sometimes I don't need any help. I've jumped out of planes, I've done this and all that kind of stuff. I can do this, I can kick this by myself. Well, I can't. Right? And so I am thankful to God. I'm thankful for Jesus, what he did at the cross, because what happens is, what happens with people when they are stuck, they're either stuck in the past or thinking about the future. So the past has to deal with guilt and shame, the future has to do with doubt, anxiety, and fear. And people get stuck right in that middle. And unless they understand the power of God, they just don't move, or they don't move effectively. Right? And so I had Because I thought, if I start sharing my story, people that know me are going to think less of me. That's one of the big things, right, Brian, one of the tapes that started playing in my head. And I never thought about the opposite, that it would be freeing for me to do that. And people would say, oh my gosh, you gave voice to what's going on inside of me. There's hope for me, right? Because a lot of times, what the enemy tries to do is to isolate you. He tries to make you think you're the only one with the problem that you have. Don't tell anybody, keep it a secret and we'll deal with it ourselves. Well, secrets kill, right? So the moment when I did that first one at vet camp, the brothers that came up loved on me, surrounded me, that was great. But then there were brothers who came up and said, man, I thank God for your story, because now I know I'm not alone. I was like, wow. And the same thing happened. You saw it. The same thing happened at man camp. And I was like, okay. It's not about me. So I can, God can use anything, anybody, no matter what you've done, right? So what I tell people is that any day there's not a chalk outline around your body, it's a good day. Just a good day. Right? And so, and so God can use you and he's, but that's a minority position, right? To be willing to be vulnerable and tell your story. And may that, will that turn off some people? It might. They might, I thought Otis was this. Well, okay. I'm human. Right? And so it's, it's just been interesting. It's been an interesting journey. I've had, at least from the comments that I've had, positive, loving, welcoming, supporting, encouraging, stuff like that? Any day there's not a chalk outline around my body. It's a good day, baby. That is so good. I remember when I was going 70, 80 miles an hour on a Harley without a helmet, and I split a deer in half. Just jumped out in front of me, thrown 60 yards down the center of the highway. It was a miracle that I didn't get a head injury. I got, people said, he should have been wearing a helmet. I was like, no, I should have been wearing gloves. Cause I got stitched in my left two knuckles. That's I should have been wearing. But I was beat up. I was, and I remember the next day, cause like we couldn't keep going on the trip. The next day I was on a, I needed some time to heal up. Right? I just had gotten the snot kicked out of me. So we found an outfitter there in Montana. Took us fly fishing the next day. And I've got these bandages on my arms. Cause I had like scrapes and conductions, not cuts, but my forearms and elbows had torn the leather in the jacket, so I had all these bruises. They wrapped them in gauze and everything, and I'm on this raft bobbing up and down, trying to cast, and the bandages are pulling from my scabs, and I'm sore, and I'm starting to have a pity party, and all of a sudden I went, hold, hold on, hold on. you should have a feeding tube right now. You should have, and I committed to God, I said, God, there should be no bad days for the rest of my life. As long as I don't have a feeding tube, because I deserve a feeding tube right now, this is a good day. For the most part, I've been good by that promise, but there have been days and seasons where it's just, you're just eating a crap sandwich, you know? But boy, if we could keep that perspective of It's not as bad as it could be. Yeah. That would be good. Yeah, it's not. Because boys, the majority of people and boys just love to fixate on what's wrong. Love to fixate on how somebody is doing something wrong to me. Love to fixate on how I've been mistreated. Love to fixate on how this should be this way, or he should have done that, or she should have done that. That's the majority. Exactly. Yeah. So do you think there's a link as well between you jumping out of a plane. at how high are you when you jump out of planes? So they're combat jumps, right? So they're about 1250 feet. So it's not a lot of time. Right. Yeah. It's funny because you have a spare. I mean, if your main canopy doesn't open, the spare, it's not gonna really help, right? Because you're so close to the ground. Well, and you got a lot of gear on you, right? You got a lot of gear, yeah. You got combat gear on you. How much extra weight are you carrying? With your backpack and your rifle, I'm gonna say, ours was 55, 60 pounds. That's a lot. So the kind of mentality that would choose that is probably some of the kind of mentality that wants the adrenaline hit at a poker table. Yes, it's the same thing. Yeah, well, thanks for opening up, being wise to us. I want you to be wise in a couple other ways. Biggest fear that people have, according to studies and statistics, is not snakes. It's not the economy crashing. It's public speaking. Yes. It's what gets our palms sweaty and all that stuff. You've. You've obviously been able to master that by being Toastmaster champion, which is a really big deal. Any tips for us on if we're speaking, how to do it better? Or what are the pitfalls that we fall into? What are the potholes that we step into? What are the tricks of the trade, so to speak? Or is there none of that? It's just you've got to get your reps in. Well, as Garen said, part of it is getting your reps in. The other part is controlling your thinking. Right? Because when people get up to speak, they, it's the one isolated thing that you do where everybody is looking at you. You're on stage, you're in front of an audience, and so all eyes are on you. And so then that brings up, are they judging me? Are they talking about me? So that's, a lot of times people are fearing that judgment, right? So part of the two fears that we have that are... with most people is I'm not enough. I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not thin enough, that kind of thing. And the other one is I won't be loved, right? So we all wanna be loved unconditionally and accepted as we are for who we are right now. Not saying that we can't grow or anything like that, but that's at the core, who we are and what we want. And so all of those things surface when you do public speaking and people are thinking, you know, they're going to see that I'm not as smart as I am when I'm quiet, right? Cause now I'm opening up and then the moment you start speaking, you tell the world who you are, your thoughts come out, how you process things, what you think about how you connect the dots. All those things come out when you start speaking and sharing a story about anything. So getting your reps in, but having, process of what you're looking for is really key right so when I coach people around public speaking what I'm coaching them around is if you do the steps that I'm telling you it's gonna be great so I do a process called deductive reasoning so in college and in school it's inductive right you read your main point is at the end of the paragraph well when you get presentations you reverse that or invert that where it's called deductive reasoning. The main thing comes up first and then I prove it. Right. So what I'm doing is I'm telling you my main point, then I'm telling you why this is the main point. And then I'm giving you some data to support that. And then I'm giving you a story, stories, tell, right? Facts, tell, story, sell. So I'm giving you a story. Facts, tell, story, sell. Yes. And so what happens is people you've got when In your audience, you have people who operate from the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere. The left hemisphere of the brain is logical, sequential, A, B, C, D, E, F, G. The right hemisphere is spatial. They're like, hey, let's just have some fun. So when you are giving the data, right, Brian, when you're giving the data, that's satisfying the left hemisphere of the brain. People are like, okay, I get that one plus one equals two. Got it. So they're following it logically. So you're providing the data. That doesn't help the people on the right. They want a story. They want something that's going to jazz them up. So you take the data, turn it into a story, and now you've got both groups covered. Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah. And so that's what's happening. And part of it is that I tell people that I coach the moment you stand in front of an audience, it's no longer about you. It's about them, whether that's an audience of one, 10, a hundred, whatever it is. The moment you stand in. front of an audience, it's about them, not you. People say, well, what do I do with my hands? I said, so you're thinking about yourself, right? Because if I'm asking what do I do with my hands, that's about me, right? Your hands are gonna do what your hands do. You've never had a problem with them before. They're gonna do what they do. And so I try to get people to make sure that they're focused on the audience. What's the need, right? What's the need of the audience? And then reading the room and stuff like that. And if I am Focused on me. I can't read the room. You understand what I'm saying? I can't tell if there's an energy shift So the only thing in the universe that cannot be created nor destroyed is energy We're all made up of energy. Everything's energy. So when I what I'm doing and you've seen me do it at man camp We've had some situations where you're like, okay Can you work with this Otis and then I read the energy of the of the men in the room and we get them back On track. Yeah, right. It's no longer about me. It's like God How do you want me to serve this group of men are this audience? What's going on? Tell me what's happening. Where do I need to go? And some of it is going right at what I see. I was gonna start out saying this, but obviously I wanna address this because this is what's happening right now. Am I right or wrong? And then they're like, whoa, you're absolutely right. So we have that conversation for a little bit. You're really hitting something great. It's good for me to be reminded of it is every time I get up on stage, when I'm on my game, I say to myself, I had the realization, I'm here to serve these people. That's a lot different than I'm here to do a great job. That's a lot different than I'm here to give a great talk. That's a lot different than I'm here to whatever. And if you're there to serve people who are there, all of a sudden you can be a bit rough because they sense that you're trying to serve them instead of you're trying to do a good job to give yourself an A, you know? Because if I'm there trying to do a good job, and you'll understand this because you speak a lot, I'm guarded. I'm like, oh, I wanna say that, but if I say it, they might think this of me or they may think that. So I'm guarded, which means God doesn't have full use of me. If I'm there to serve, then everything he can use, right? He can use stories, he can use gestures, he can use actions, he can use me interacting with the audience, because I'm saying, use me, God, use everything I have, my talents, my gifts, my abilities, my stories, whether I want to tell them or not, right? And so now, boom. It's wide open. And then that's when the Holy Spirit gets to move throughout the audience and people get touched and transformation happens. And it's just a beautiful thing. What minority positions are you taking right now? And you could say, well, no, I'm just trying to go the path I am. You've done plenty of minority positions, but is there something else that's fresh with you right now? Something else that's fresh with me right now is I'm in a, not a... not a battle, but I'm in a space where I'm trying to figure out how God wants to use me next step wise. And I really think, so I am doing my thing, Otis Williams Limits, but I'm also working at a Joy Outdoor Education Center. So I'm doing both. I'm their Venture Out director, which is their adult program for team and leadership. And I've been there a few years and I'm feeling this tug that God's saying, okay, that's enough of that. Let's, I got some work for you to do over here. Let's get over here. So it's interesting because I've, this is funny. I've become comfortable being at that space, right? Check comes in every two weeks, benefits, stuff like this. And so God's saying, ah, that's fine, but I got some other work for you to do. So I need you. to be willing to trust me again, trust me some more, and then move into this way. So that's where I am right now. So I am just having those conversations with myself. I know the action to take, but it's the same thing as being on the edge of the door of the plane. Okay, the way down is out. Yeah, well, and you've had some... Real success. You're talking about how to coach people to live courageously. You've done this with Sprint, Fifth Third Bank, GM. I mean, you've got some momentum going with this. So what takes you to the next level? I mean, what is the next level is I don't have two different jobs? Yeah, the next level would be to take all of my energy, time, and effort and boom. put it in OWL, Oldest Williams Limitless, and drive that thing forward at an IndyCar pace, right? 200, 200 plus miles an hour. Right, how old are you right now? 59. So you're still building and starting something new at 59 instead of doing same old, same old. Yeah, so like Friday, this Friday, I'm doing a breakthrough experience training with an organization. And I think I talked to you about this, but I may have, but we're going to do glass walking and brick breaking. Right? So we, I think you and I talked about fire walking. Fire walking. I don't know you glass. Oh, fire walking. Yeah. So it's funny because I started to bring one of my arrows here today and have both you and I break them with our throats. And I was like, he would do it. Oh yeah. I'll break shit right now. Where is it? So yeah. Yeah, you are a certified firewalker. We were talking about a man camp, bringing fire walking experience. And I don't know how we would do that for 3,000 dudes, which is probably what we're going to have this next time. But that would be really, really fun. I just have to call and bring my team in. Hey, we need to look at that for sure. But even there, I think the whole fire walking, arrow breaking, glass walking, I think all those things are designed. put you in the minority, right? Yes. It's not just breaking through your limits. It's, will I be one of the crazy ones that goes down the hot path? Yes. I was just reading this morning my time with God in James 1. Count it all, join my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. The number of people who say, hey, trials, trials of many kinds and testing, woo, I have joy now, this is great, this is wonderful. No, no one counts that as joy. We immediately count it as God's not doing his job. Because God's here to make me happy. God's here to be a God of abundance. That's even one of the spiritual proverbs in the church world is God is a God of abundance. What they almost always mean is more money, more comfort, more opportunity, more good stuff. He is a God of abundance, abundance of, you're gonna have a lot of trust and difficulties and tribulations, a lot, a lot. And we encounter joy with it if we have the attitude of, I'm doing this to become a more holistic person who reflects who Jesus is. Because the way God gets us to be more like Jesus, isn't giving us more money, or else he would have given us more money instead of giving us his son on a cross. The way he gets us to be like him is walking the path Jesus walked, which is one of difficulty, of tests, of trials. And anybody who embraces that, and I don't embrace it, because I don't want it to happen, unfortunately right now I'm in a season of God being abundance in many, many good ways. I'm in a really, really good spot right now. That's awesome. But anybody who doesn't embrace at least the philosophy that I could go for long periods in difficulty, and God is still good, and I'm still good, because I'm going to take a minority attitude. When we take that thing on, we just get a deeper spirit, a deeper character, and caliber about ourselves. You agree? I do. One of my core philosophies is everything's a test. Everything's a test. If you wake up, everything's a test. The person cutting you off when you're driving to work, that's a test. When you get to work, the person being snotty or whatever, that's a test. You get a phone call that something's happening, that's a test. Everything's a test. And what I firmly believe, it's not what happens to you, it's how you respond to what happens to you. And that is... the preparation that I believe God is doing in us through his Holy Spirit to get us to respond how Jesus will respond. Does that make sense? Makes a lot of sense. So that's why I say everything's a test. So here's what happens. Do we have a little bit of time? Yeah. Okay. I guess you can edit whatever you want. If not, we'll just cut you off. Just cut me off. Yeah. So our brain is amazing. And the Bible says, for as he thinketh in his heart, so is he, right? All that great stuff. So what happens is information enters our brain through our spinal cord. and it goes up and it goes to the limbic system. And right there is the seat of emotion. So this is where people get hijacked because the judgment and reason is in our frontal lobe. So everything's emotional before we get to that lobe. That's the work that has to be done. Because what happens is fear, doubt, and anxiety stops people from moving forward because they get hijacked in that limbic mode right there. They can't move past that. If they could see if I can just get coaching or have an experience that gets me out of here and moves me to my rational place, I'll understand that it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be. So we are talking about all the stuff, the extreme stuff that I do, firewalking, glasswalking and all that stuff. It's to bring you to that point and then have you manage going past that and beyond that to understand that, hey, yeah, it's some risk involved. But if we take these steps, you're going to be fine. And that creates breakthrough. So those intense emotional experiences serve as anchors when God calls us to something else even greater. Right. Now you can say, man, if I walked across raise a shrub glass or hot coals. I can do this that God's calling me to do. Is it, do I have to be on my game? Do I have to be aware and all that kind of stuff? Yes, but I'm not gonna let the fear, the anxiety or the doubt stop me, right? Cause I know where that is right now. I know what's happening to me. Abraham Maslow said, what's necessary to change a person is the first change is awareness of himself. So if I know I'm in a space where fear is, then I'm just, what I'm gonna do, Brian, is I'm gonna assess it. I'm going to assess the wrist there. That's like, okay, there's a little bit of wrist, but I'm going to go forward. I'm going to move ahead. That's a really good anatomy lesson, which I've not heard it that way before. As I think about my brain, touch my ears right now. If I go straight back, I'm at the very base of my skull, which is where the spinal cord is. So my eyes, my sense of smell, what I taste. All that goes back to the very top of my, and then goes through all the brain matter, all the way up through, feelings, and then bam, right in my forehead. That's when I actually think. So there's a lot of traveling of stimuli that would hijack me. That's fresh. Yeah, and what happens is you can't control the thoughts and the information that comes into your spinal column, your core. Here's the beautiful thing. You can control the thoughts afterwards. So that's why it's important to understand that God did not give us a spirit of fear, but a power loving of a sound mind So when I when my brain is trying to hijack me, I have to have the counter to it So when fear is there then I say to myself, right? God is not giving me the spirit of fear but a power love and a sound mind that if saying that enough until it gets in my In my cells and I'm not trying to be too metaphysical, but it literally goes into your cells And then I get to, it breaks that and then it moves on up. And then I get to my frontal lobe where I can make good rational judgments and decisions. And the majority will never do that hard work. Exactly. The majority will always do what they feel and assume that they're on the side of righteousness. I'm not, no, I'm just being righteous. I'm just being this. No, you're instantaneously being ruled by your wants, needs and desires. and not processing it spiritually. Yes. It's hard work to be the minority, isn't it? Oh, it's definitely hard work, right? Because you're taking a stand. I remember when my son, we were talking to him, and he was telling me something him and his boys were doing. And I said, let me tell you one thing and just stay with me. And he said, OK, dad, I said, you've got some good friends, right? You and your boys are tight. He was like, yeah, we're pretty tight. You do a lot together. Yeah, same kind of things. Yeah, I said, here's the deal. I said, KB, I call him KB. His name's Caleb Rice. I said, KB. There's going to come a day when your friends, your boys are going to want to do something that you know in your heart from an integrity position and a God-honoring and God-fearing position you're not supposed to do. The day you can step on the other side of the line, turn around and look at them and say, dude, I'm not doing it. That's the day you start your journey to manhood. When you can tell your boys, you know what, guys, I feel it, but I'm not doing that one. Wow. That's a hard deal. is an adolescent. Oh my gosh. Because the prefrontal cortex is not developed until you're 25. That's why our kids think they can do anything and live and make crazy decisions and stuff like that. Right? So this prefrontal cortex is huge on development and rationale and judgment and decisions and how we go about living our lives and doing what God's called us to do. It's also why the best warriors are under 25. Yeah. Stick them in there. They're young and virile and don't have as many fears or as rational thinking as the rest of us do. Yeah. But your older warriors, right? It's like new brooms sweep clean, old brooms nowhere to go. Right? So your older warriors who's been in a few battles, they can say, I appreciate you. So, all right, Caleb, come here. Now I want you to take that heel, but I want you to stay here. So they're, they're employing, employing wisdom, right? I can't, I can't fight the way you can fight anymore. I can still fight and I will, but you're going to do this and this and this. I've been thinking that a lot with myself of when I was younger. I had a lot of idealism, which was oftentimes just raw energy and passion and just big, big faith, big assumptions of how God's going to come through. Because I was just idealistic about, hey, if God's in it, it's going to come through. And if you've got to just step forward and think of faith and really. Pure hearted stuff, right? Now, as you get older, you're more in a place of wisdom, as you just mentioned. You've been through some alleys. You've taken some punches. You had some wins. You've had some failures. You just see things you didn't see when you were 30 years old. And the temptation is just to stay with that wisdom. But man, I don't want to lose that idealism. Exactly. That's what I was going to say. How do we keep the, in all of us, the idealism of youth and the wisdom of age? I don't meet many people that want both of those. Yeah. Can I tell you something? Yeah. Here's the deal. You want the, you want how you keep it? Yeah. Pick a fight. Like you and me outside here? No, no, no. You don't want to do that. Yeah, oh, I don't. You don't want to do that. No, I'm just playing. No, but Brian, we bring those together when we say, you know what, I don't have to, but I'm going to pick a fight. I'm going to pick a godly fight. And I'm going to see what's going on, right? So I get to use that testosterone, that energy, that... that raw energy from my youth and couple that with wisdom and I pick a fight. Right? And see, and let God show up, right? Because that's what I firmly believe. I just have a bent towards men and I have a bent towards men being warriors. fighting and taking ground for the kingdom of God. Yes. Right? So I don't want passive men. I want men who want to fight at all ages, right? Come and let's get you in the camp. Let's fight and let's go. I've got a series of talks I'm doing in a book we're working on right now on the six primal identities, the identities that are in you. It is who you are, you may not be acting them, but it is you. One of them is warrior. Yeah, you're talking about the archetypes, the king, the lover and all that stuff. Well, no, because the king, the lover and all those things generally are this is the season of life that you're this thing or you're this thing versus that thing. These are if you're creating the image of God, which all of us are as humans, there's things that you just always are. that David, we see him perfectly and purely do these, well, we see David do these, Jesus do these things, and warrior's one of them. And when you realize that, you don't have to... convince yourself to be a warrior, that you actually are a warrior in your DNA. Might be very rusty, covered over with dirt, might be ill-formed, but you have that in you, just like creator, we all are a creator. Now, that doesn't mean all of us are gonna finger paint, but all of us are gonna do something to create, to create a talk, rehab a Jeep, create a deck, create a family, create a... whatever it is, when you see, I have that stuff. I've seen a step into it. It's different than I've got to learn how to fight because I've never taken a class before. No, it's in you. It's in you. Yeah. Yeah, it just needs to be awakened. Right. Doudis, I think you're going to excel our final part here because I don't always want to put every guest through this because some of them, quite frankly, are in the majority and they just suck as communicators and they can't take directions. Talk about a set up. Yeah. I think you... could be a winner in the lightning round. Oh, the lightning round. Yes, I'm going to give you a topic. And you need to answer like a bolt of light, like, whew, whew. I don't want to hear long. Is that your lightning sound, dude? Yeah, it is. Was it not any good? No, that was horrible. Let me hear yours. I don't have one, but I know it's not that. Whee, whee, whee. All right, I need to have more slime in my mouth. Here, let me get a drink of water here. No, because you might spit it out, dude. All right, whatever. Here we go. Lightning round, here we go. OK, your idea? Yes. I inhaled water. Not good. Lightning round. Someone else you admire for taking minority positions? Jesus. That's always the answer. I probably should have said you can't answer Jesus. If it wasn't Jesus, someone else you admire? Dr. Martin, let me do this. If someone else I admire. Um, command sergeant major Joe Dixon, who was my command sergeant major at Fort, uh, Fort Bragg, North Carolina when I was in the military, he did not play. He took a minority position for the troops. I learned a tremendous amount about leadership and how to lead under this man. Great. Secret to mastering public speaking. Reps. The thoughts in your mind just before you jump out of an airplane with 55 pounds of dangerous gear. Is my chute gonna open? Let's stop right there. This is good. I can, I can adjust that you're doing very good, doing exactly what we should do, but sometimes I want to follow up. Most of us are not going to step out of an airplane. I know I'm not planning on it. We can do that though. I can take it. We can go together. I know. I get people who invite me and I don't know, man, I'm just not risk, risk reward for me. It's just not, not there for me. Yeah. And I also don't want to do it with to somebody else, I'm going to do it, I want to jump out and pull my chute, and then that's going to take a whole day of training, and I'd probably rather do something else anyway. But, so assuming I'm not going to do it, you just mentioned that mentality, but many of us are stepping out of planes, or need to step out of a plane. We need to step out of our comfort zone. Yes. So what's the transferable skill for those of us who are stepping out of other high places? It's... doing the thing that you fear the most. So Susan Jeffers had a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. So understanding that when I'm working with people, if I can get them to say, yes, I'm afraid, I'm going to do it scared. And then if we, because what happens is fear is the anticipation of pain. That's, I mean, if we do that, fear is the anticipation of pain. And people don't want pain. But if I can get you to ship fear is the anticipation of pain. Dude, I'm taking notes on you today. That's really good. Hey, Caleb, I will hear this stuff later. Like it's his. I've always said, first of all, who's Caleb? Oh, dirt. You mean he's dirt. He's I've always said, in fact, I've been working on a book. So dirt out here, pick a fight. That's right. Yeah. Any day you wake up and there's not a chalk outline around your body. Yeah, totally, totally. This is all coming to you at main camp 23. This is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, And then if the worst thing is anything short of death, then the answer is I can cope with it. If I can get you there mentally, then you move. And that's what people are afraid of. So we go through that and it's the emotion, right? So I'm trying to move you from your limbic system and move you to the prefrontal cortex where I can say, let's just... Let's just do this rationally. Let's think it through, right? Because they will tell you because everything hits you emotionally first. So that's why people say emotion trumps logic every single time because it gets there first. That's a good word. Yeah. All right. Last lightning question. All right. What do you do to unwind or have fun? I'm a movie nut. So I watch movies. I love movies. Movie night, movie weekend. That's cool. Yeah. Just movies. Any movies you want to recommend to me that I might not have watched? Um, you probably watched the John Wick series. I haven't seen the most recent one. Okay. Is it good? The most recent? I haven't seen it yet. That's why I gotta go see it. I feel like it's getting old. Yeah. I thought one was just amazing. Like, oh my gosh, mind blowing. Yeah. That's how, that's how I felt about the Matrix, right? Right. And then eventually they just got old. I assume four is going to be John Wick four is going to be, I don't know, stale as I assume, but. I heard it's pretty good. You did? Okay. I wanted to hear that. Cause if I could hear that it was really good, then I would go, okay, I'm in on it. What about the born series? It's an older series. Okay. They're awesome. Have you seen the most recent one? A movie air? No dude. Okay. Damn air. Yeah. It's the story of, uh, air Jordans, the story of Nike landing Michael Jordan and his mom fighting for him. And, uh, dude, it's OK. It's great. All right. Yeah, it's great. OK. All right. Hey, man, this has been a fantastic time. It has. Help us have an easy time finding you. How do we find your stuff? How do we find you? Give us an advertisement. OtisWilliams.com. There you go. Because I'm working on social media, right? Yeah, right. So the best place is OtisWilliams.com. Or just call me, right? 513-600-5691. call, text, whatever. That's an aggressive move. It's an aggressive move. I don't know. I don't know if anybody's giving out their number. That's my real number. If you call me right now, my phone will ring. We're going to find out just how few people actually listen to the aggressive line. Because right now, it looks like everything is growing on the right. If you get no calls, I'm going to go, oh, crap. No, it could be me, right? It could be the guest. No, it won't be you. Anything else you want to talk about right now? No, this has been great. I'm just honored that you invited me here. Man, I'm thankful for you giving the time to be here. I'm thankful for the investment you've made in my life. I'm thankful for how you're investing in men. Every time I hear you speak at man camp, like man, this guy actually paid to be here. We're not paying him to speak. He paid to be here. And now he's up on a stage giving people content that You would get paid a lot of money for elsewhere. Well, actually, probably not, because you're given a level of spiritual content that the corporate America doesn't want. But you're very generous and deep well. So thank you for pouring into us today, Otis. Hey, everybody. Otis did drop a lot of truth bombs on us. It wasn't just the pithy sayings. It was his level of vulnerability with going to a place of pain. insight about how our brain works, our ability to understand fear, just a lot of them. And I know this is not meant to be a cranial endeavor for you. I know this is not meant to just give you 60 minutes of interesting things to listen to. There's something here that you have to do. Be one of the very few people who does things instead of thinking things. God wants you to do things. He doesn't want you just to think. Think things, get in the minority, put your life forward, jump out of the plane, get off of the ledge, control your mind. We'll see you next time on The Aggressive Life. Thanks for joining us on this journey toward aggressive living. Find more resources, articles, past episodes and live events over at bryantome.com. Pre-orders for my new books, a repackaged edition of the Five Marks of a Man and a brand new Five Marks of a Man Tactical Guide are open right now on Amazon. If you haven't yet, leave this podcast a rating and review. It really helps. Get this show in front of new listeners. And if you want to connect, find me on Instagram at Brian Tome. The Aggressive Life is a production of Crossroads Church, Cincinnati, Ohio.