Rich 0:00 Hello, welcome to our dad's died with me, Tom and me rich and welcome to one of the first episodes that wasn't recorded 100,000 years ago. This episode was recorded a couple weeks ago, we caught up with Michelle brasier. Tom Joyner, explain Michelle brasier to our lovely listeners.

Tom Gerken 0:16 She's an Australian comedian, she you've probably seen her tour around, if you get a envir. Often, you might have seen her there. If you watch a lot of YouTube, and you're familiar of Auntie Donna, then you've seen her pop up on there as well as on their Netflix show. And she's based in Edinburgh to throughout the month of August. So if you are there, do see it. But we'll talk about that more at the end.

Rich 0:40 Before that, let's let's get into it. Let's let's start this episode. And this episode actually starts with Michelle scolding us for our very British drinking habits. So here we go. This is our

Speaker 3 1:11 what is that? Is that an alcoholic beverage in the morning? Is it your morning? Yeah, I

Rich 1:16 suppose midday drinking. But it's so traditional how this whole podcast started was that we used to go to the pub and talk about our dads. Yeah. And so we thought when we do the podcast, it's sort tradition that we have a beer while we do it.

Unknown Speaker 1:30 That's great. Well, I've had a whiskey. Oh, perfect. So I've had to drink.

Rich 1:39 Right. I've still got the taste of toothpaste in my mind.

Unknown Speaker 1:41 A lovely mix of different.

Rich 1:43 Yeah, yeah, it's quite a minty beer that I'm going for. But

Speaker 2 1:46 yeah, I'm sort of on four different drinks at the moment. So it's, it's really what's going to pop up next at this point. But yes, anyway,

Unknown Speaker 1:54 that's great. It's an exciting time.

Rich 1:57 It is mid morning for different alcoholic beverages. Oh,

Speaker 2 2:00 to clarify just one Thank you. The thing about this podcast is that we do kind of laugh a lot. Even when sometimes the topic does is not a topic where you would normally laugh. That's that's the point of the podcast really is that me rich used to meet up in a pub and talk about things and then start laughing when you shouldn't laugh at that thing. So I like to preface before we talk to guests, the site's sort of say, just so you know, if you say something miserably sad, and I start laughing, that's simply because I never learned how to deal with emotions.

Speaker 3 2:35 It's fine. I've met men. Yeah. But also like, you know, I've basically built a career on funny sad.

Rich 2:44 Yeah, yes. And I mean, it's, there's, there's quite a lot of source material there from from what I understand. Yes. And absurd. Um, yeah,

Speaker 2 2:53 we we, we sort of all I think we're all roughly the same age, or at least in the same kind of ballpark, we all kind of graduated and that kind of 2010 ish kind of area. So I feel like our generation is the one which kind of we graduated and then the world kind of went, Yes, but the economy is ruined. Good luck getting a job. Hahaha. However, welcome to adulthood, however, my understanding is that you're welcome to adulthood was like you had that but also a little bit shit to also

Speaker 3 3:23 a little bit more. Yes, my welcome to adulthood was like, guess what bit everything's going wrong. Because I I mean, I had like, such a lovely adolescence, like, I loved being a teenager, I went to school happy if I was sick, I was like, I'm still gonna go because I want to hang out with my friends. I like I really loved school. And I loved my life. And we we weren't rich. But I didn't know that I thought that we were like this rich family. Because I went to a very poor school and I was probably one of the registers. Like, I had no perspective, I had no understanding of like, what the world was. I didn't know like, until I moved to Melbourne, because I grew up in Wagga Wagga, which is the teen teen pregnancy capital of Australia. Oh, congratulations. Thank you so much. We did it. I didn't know that you could have a pool. Like I didn't. That's crazy. Like I didn't know you could have your own pool. That's madness. Until I moved to Melbourne and I went to I got into this really fancy art school that I thought that it would take me years and years to get into. But it didn't and I got in when I was very young and I went there and everyone was very rich and I was very confused and very fish out of water. But I was still you know really happy and grateful and then just life hit me in the face. I don't know should I go into it? Should I should we should I go into it right now.

Rich 4:43 Let's get stuck in Yeah. So we've, we've got the premise has been set up. Michelle had a lovely childhood. What could possibly go wrong?

Speaker 3 4:52 I had a lovely childhood. Yes. And I was in first year acting school at this fancy acting school. And I'm a very strong singer in that I think that's where I got in so young. And I remember them saying to me, at the end of first year, they were like, you've just got no life experience. Like you've got no like, sadness to draw on. You've got you're just kind of just happy to be here. And I was like, yep. I don't know what you want me to do about that now, like, just take a year off and go live. And I was like, okay, so I took a year off and I booked a trip to Europe, I was actually meant to fly into Glasgow, because I was obsessed with Scotland like, I think I was, I wasn't very cool in terms of I was very horny for Doctor Who. So I wanted to like, I think I thought if I went to Glasgow, then I would somehow have sex with David Tennant in some way, I think that was like the plan. And I was also really interested in the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama. So I was like, I want to go over there when I like, auditioned for that school. And I want to like see Scotland and I'm very interested in it. Anyway. And then a month before I was meant to go, I was standing next to a heater, which I'm sure you're familiar with being in the UK, standing next to a heater. And it was one of those bar heaters do you know the ones that are like red? They kind of go red? Yeah, but that it's a big fucking literal warning sign that you shouldn't go near it. But I was very close to it. And I caught on fire. And I had to learn to walk again.

Speaker 2 6:21 I mean, this is just you can't just anyway, let's just skip over this bit. What was he talking about?

Rich 6:27 When you say you caught on fire? Like the flame?

Speaker 3 6:31 Yeah, you know, a candle. So? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 6:36 Obviously we think about a candle. Yeah.

Rich 6:39 Yeah, I mean, yeah.

Speaker 3 6:41 But yeah, I caught on fire and I was like running up and down the hallway trying to not be on fire. My one of my housemates risked her life, like, you know, Burton herself, throwing me into the shower, turning on the water. I went to the hospital, I got skin grafts. I had to learn to walk again. I was 18 years old. I had to learn to walk again. And you know, I was like, what? Yeah, it was quite quite mad. And when I got out of the hospital, I had to have hospital at home care for about a year where someone would come and shower me, which is more humiliating, but yeah, they can I got out and I found out that I was like, where's Dad? Like, my parents are still together. I was like, Where's where's Dad? And mom's like, Dad's not well, and then. Yeah, we got a call that he was he'd been diagnosed with cancer, which was a real surprise was real shock. And it was pancreatic cancer. Stage four, which is often when pancreatic cancer will get diagnosed is like quite late in the game. And he he died, like seven days later. He just got away.

Rich 7:44 Yeah, so I was that fast. Just found out a week later really fast.

Speaker 3 7:49 Yeah, wow. And I went home, like I got to see him my friend, my best friend James, who was just a wonderful, wonderful figure in my life. And he he had taken all of this leave from he was the only person I knew in my life who had a full time job because he had really like young parents. The reason we were friends, my parents were old, his were young. And my older sister was the same age as his mother. As I said, teenage pregnancy capital of Australia. She was 16 when she had him. And so he had ended up sort of raising her like he had done all of this work to support her support his siblings, and then so immediately, as soon as we're 18, like, as soon as we were 15, he had a full time job, we left school. And when I moved to Melbourne to go to art school, he was like, Alright, I'm coming. And he just came and just moved in with me, and looked after me and had a full time job. And so he used up all his leave looking after me in the hospital, watching Tyra Banks on America's Next Top Model. And then he, in the middle of the night, I woke up one night, his dad had been diagnosed, and there was a few days, two days later, I was like, I think I should go, because they said to us, we think we'll have another Christmas. And this was in the middle of the night. They were like he should have at least until Christmas. And I was like, okay, but then two days later, I was like, Nah, something's wrong. And I woke up James, the middle of the night, and he said, I don't have any leave left. And I said, That's okay, I've got to go, can I borrow your car and he said, I quit my job. And he and I drove through the middle of the night, and we got in Australia, like, you drive a lot. That's normal. But like, I live a six hour drive from my parents. And we got halfway through, we got halfway there. And my brother called me in the middle of night, and said, Hey, we're going to book you on the next flight in the morning because he's not does not well, and I was like, I'm in Aubrey, which is an hour, two hours away. Yeah, I was like, I'm already there. I just had a feeling something's wrong. And I spent the next day with him. Say goodbye to him. And yeah, I was just we were all kind of there when he went, which was really good. But yeah, it was fuck, it was fast. It was really, really fast.

Rich 9:46 And what's what was that? Cummings a huge amount of information to sort of work huge adjustment within one week. How How was that? That one day that you've had with him? What was the experience of that like? So

Unknown Speaker 10:00 It was a strange one.

Speaker 2 10:02 I mean a hospital at the time was the at home he he was

Speaker 3 10:05 in hospital so I never I never got to see him again in in context you know he was he was this kind of sickly looking pale that that version of the dying person that you're like, that's the bit you don't really want to remember but he was he was that guy already like he had it was actually really funny it was very dark but I think appropriate for the for you guys but he had he was an overweight man like quite obese I guess if we want to use that language, but like, he was a really big guy, and he had type two diabetes, and he was supposed to be on a diet and we for ages were like he's sneaking food like there's no way but he wasn't sneaking food. He just had a fucking huge tumour. And we had been the whole time would you fucking lie, you're like a little rat, and actually been dragging his best, but he just had, it was just this huge DuBose that was quite like, sad and funny.

Speaker 2 11:00 Oh my God, my dad had the reverse of that, which is of course he was also in the tumours are sort of, you know, more hidden places. But before he was diagnosed, he was getting slimmer and slimmer and slimmer without trying. So he just sort of I don't know, he just sort of thought that like his metabolism had like, I don't know, we just become that of a 20 year old. I can eat whatever I like.

Speaker 3 11:26 Funny, yeah, it's really just like the enormous red flags that your body will put up and you're like, Oh, I think actually, this is a sign of mine.

Speaker 2 11:35 I don't need say, right now. This is fine. This is me being best.

Speaker 3 11:39 This is fine. This is normal. But yeah, so he was like, but my dog used to like sit on his stomach all the time. And the day that he died was really beautiful because that the hospital let us bring the dog in. Which apparently is really rare. And yeah, she was like quite a mad dog. She would run around. It's just little dog. You know, little dogs are kind of cats. And they kind of just run around and bark a lot. She's like that. But she was very calm and very stoic and just sat on his lap. And it was it. Yeah, she was really beautiful. But the day he I mean, I remember, he had this estranged brother, who was so annoying, and he made a big show of it. Like he came back into his life and was like, I'm back. And it was like, Who are you? Like, it's just not you're annoying. You're another thing for us to deal with

Speaker 2 12:28 your life starting to sound a little bit telenovela at this point. Yeah, well, listen,

Speaker 3 12:33 we are a Spanish. Spanish there, so we had to make it dramatic. And obviously, in keeping with the telenovela, I started a relationship with a new man. On the day my father died. Somebody call somebody call us I call her dad's.

Rich 12:54 But yeah, we got together. I did the exact same thing. You did it last night, a relationship, who days after my dad's funeral, and we got we got one pretty miserable year together. Something had

Unknown Speaker 13:06 seven miserable years.

Rich 13:10 From that relationship, yes. Oh, quite. I mean, terrible decision.

Unknown Speaker 13:16 wasn't great. It wasn't great.

Unknown Speaker 13:18 I mean, it was fine. It met your dad or

Speaker 3 13:22 he met him as he was. That was the end. So it was like the thing. It's like, I think that's why a relationship and he came to the funeral. Yes, it was like, all right. And the day we got together was the day dad died. It was like, Alright, this is official. And he was very depressed. And it was like, alright, well, obviously, it was like, Oh, this is something I can fix. Yeah, what I can say if

Speaker 2 13:42 you were like, depressed, and you were like, I've got the mental capacity to help him. That's I am in a place where I can get in bed. That's, that's what I need to focus on. Is someone else's mental health right now.

Speaker 3 13:56 Yes, that's what I did. That is exactly what I did. Which was, you know, a beautiful and a dream. And everyone was like, Okay, I guess she loved this guy. His name was Wayne as well, which is for him, but my brother was very a very big advocate against me being with him. And then my brother also died. So I mean, wasn't when I don't know, who knows, you know?

Rich 14:22 Was this while you were still with Wayne? Yes. Which is another reason I

Speaker 2 14:26 was gonna say so ways really? Yeah. Deep in the family connection at this hate.

Speaker 3 14:30 Yeah, he had like, seen a lot of it. When my brother died, it was from a similar cancer to my dad. So it's turns out to be this genetic thing that we might all have. And if you want to learn more about it in a more dramatic way, please watch average bear on paramount. But it's like, yeah, when he passed away, that was like, oh, okay, something's up. But I was actually in Edinburgh when my brother died. And I had the most amazing night so I had this show. I was doing the show called Bass tortoise, which is our show I wrote after we'd lost dad, and it's about a tortoise who wants to go to space to show her dad how tall she has gotten her. Her dad is like the first tortoise to go into space to be sent into space by Russia. And listen, we all you know, we grieve differently. I wrote a show about Taurus. So I was doing that, which is my first ever solo show in Edinburgh at 11:45pm in a 40 seater venue, because I'm a businesswoman, and had this bit in the show where I would come out and I'd be like, do you guys bring your snowglobes? And everyone would say no, obviously, because you wouldn't, it was just funny little bit. And then when no one would have a snowglobe I would say, Okay, I'll go first. And I would tell them about my site. snowglobe. But they gilded balloon, my venue, the day that my brother died. I didn't cancel my show, call the psychologist. I didn't cancel the show. And they collected enough money. Like they did a little crowd fund or whatever, from whoever's in the office. And they got snow globes for everyone in the audience. So that it was a secret so that when, yeah, when they all walked in, I didn't know. But when I got to the part where I said, who you know, who does anyone have a snow globe, everyone held a snow globe in the air and I obviously bawled my fucking eyes out. But yeah, so that was really, really special. Edinburgh has a very special place in my heart.

Rich 16:26 It does sort of ruin the show, though. I mean, midway through.

Speaker 3 16:29 Yeah, I was like, so for any general public, who just kind of hearing were handed one of those. I don't know how much context you got my brother's dead. It's all right. I kind of knew he was gonna die. Anyway, I'm gonna move on with the show. Just very like, well, this is what is is.

Rich 16:50 How long after your dad died? Did your brother die?

Speaker 3 16:53 Yeah. A few years. There were some a few years in between. I am not

Rich 17:02 sure how we know it was less than seven. Wayne was still around. It was less than seven. Because when he was still in the waiting period, that's

Speaker 3 17:08 the signpost. We are deep in Wayne. We're in deep wave,

Speaker 2 17:12 which no one wants to be really objectively knowing nothing about Wait, no deep way and isn't.

Speaker 3 17:17 Listen, he wasn't he wasn't the problem. We were the problem. And I in a public way. Now, I was fine,

Speaker 2 17:28 of course. So we've got this this period of time, that's fine. But obviously, so you said your dad, it was something like seven days did you say between? What diagnosis and death sort of horribly? What about your brother?

Speaker 3 17:42 That was about eight or nine months? Okay. Yeah, he was put on a trial of this drug that was like the conditions were. If you survive this, it's free. Like if you survive for a year, it's free. And if you don't you pay, and we paid. Isn't that?

Rich 18:00 Right? It really feels like that's the wrong way round. Yeah, if you survive, you pay for it. If this doesn't work, you have to pay us. Yes. What a mental system.

Unknown Speaker 18:13 That is Black Mirror shit. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 18:18 I don't understand the reasoning. Like I don't know what it was. for him. It was like a new experimental drug. And I think it's kind of what killed him in the end. Like he he sort of lost his mind. started hallucinating and stuff like that, like he really got unwell from his system was just kind of overloaded by the medicine, which is crazy that like sometimes the dose required to keep you alive is the same as the dose that it takes to kill you. And I think that's just kind of the balance that he ended up at. And that's why he died. But he went for it. It was

Speaker 2 18:51 yeah, he went, Yeah, he gave it the best shot, which is pretty cool.

Speaker 3 18:55 Yeah, he fucking did. My brother tried so much. He didn't drink another drop of alcohol. Like he immediately was just like, all right, because he had two young boys, two young sons and a partner. And he just went Fuck this. I'm gonna fucking give everything okay. And he just, I just, it wasn't enough. But at least he tried. Because I watched him I watched my brother say about my dad that he thought that dad had sort of just given up. He's like dad's depressed. He's given up and I was like, What do you mean downs? Depressed is not depressed. No one's depressed. I mean, Wayne's depressed, but nobody else is different. What are you talking about?

Rich 19:32 So you mentioned there that like there's this hereditary thing in your family. That means you're is it more like a lot more susceptible to specific cancers or? Yeah,

Speaker 3 19:47 well, I didn't actually know exactly how it works because I can't get the testing because if I get the testing, I I might not be able to have life insurance, things like that. You It's just a big choice to go and do the tests. But the thing is that they suspected Lynch syndrome. They treat me as if I've got Lynch syndrome, which is a genetic predisposition to breast, stomach, ovarian, bowel, that kind of area. cancers. And yeah, I just I just don't know, but I think I might go and get the test. Done. Because it seems a it seems like I should just go and do it and be I've talked about it publicly enough that I think a life insurance company would just fucking come for me anyway,

Rich 20:37 to keep that a secret now, for your own peace of mind. Would would you rather know? Or?

Unknown Speaker 20:44 I think so.

Rich 20:45 I suppose the idea is you either you might find out that you don't have it, and then poof, great. Or if you know that you do have it, then I guess it, it affects the way that you're going to live the rest of your life. So it's better. Yeah,

Speaker 3 21:01 exactly. I mean, I sort of live as if I've got it, which is what my genetic counsellors think I should do, because they've said to me, like, even if you don't have it, it's it, you're still really likely to even if you don't have this particular genetic predisposition, you're still so likely to get one of these cancers because it's just ridiculous. Like, my sister has precancerous polyps in her stomach, like, it's just my grandmother had pancreatic cancer, it's just really strong. So they're like, even if you test negative for this, we're still going to be treating you but like, if you go and do this, then we can we know if we if you should have a hysterectomy, which is like a huge thing for a young woman to do, but I don't want to have kids. So I mean, do I want early modern menopause? Like, no, but do I want cancer? Also? No. So it's big. It's really big questions like that. But I mean, God, fuck it. That perspective is such a gift. Like, even though it's awful. I am much happier now than I was when I was 17. Like, I'm just happier. I'm happier having lost stuff, because I know what it is to have things now. Does that make sense? Do you guys feel like that too.

Rich 22:17 When you lose something or someone you appreciate? What you do have a little bit more. And you sort of be more aware of what you have. Sometimes I think it can be a bit paralysing, I think if you like there's that saying that you should you know when you should live each day like it's your last it's like wow, about what the absolutely exhausting. The so much pressure. If you live every day, as if it was like every time you said goodbye to someone it was as if you were never going to see them again. I think that's I mean, I

Speaker 3 22:48 will I will say I kind of do live that way. Really? I think. Yeah, yeah, I think I kind of do. Like, I'm very, you know, even if I see a stranger that like looks nice and an outfit, I'm like, Excuse me, I just want to know, you look really great today. Because like, what if they get hit by a bus? And that's the last thing they hear. I don't know. Like, I don't leave things unsaid very much.

Rich 23:10 What if they're crossing a road and you shout to them, you look great in that coat and I kill that's where they get hit.

Speaker 3 23:17 Buck. All right, well, I'll have to be really careful. I don't do maybe maybe

Rich 23:21 that's the message you should live every day like it's everyone else's last. You should treat them as if they're about to die.

Speaker 2 23:29 So on on this podcast, we like to often talk about this notion of the hierarchy of grief, people say that there isn't one. And we're going to get into that in a moment. But before we do, I want to talk about the hierarchy of friendship, because I always felt that I had the best friends like rich would probably do a lot for me. I'm a great guy. But Rich, if I were in a situation where I really need you to come round, but it would require you to quit your job.

Rich 24:00 I would love to quit my job so much.

Speaker 2 24:05 Because I just It strikes me that James, as previously mentioned, might actually just be the best friend of all the friends, right?

Unknown Speaker 24:14 He's pretty special. He's pretty good.

Rich 24:17 Yeah, that's a quite a quite an amazing thing. And how so how that was when your dad died. How was he when your brother died? Did he quit another job? Just gonna quit my job again.

Speaker 3 24:33 I think he had more leave by then. I think his job actually kept him on. Like, I think it was like I'm leaving. And they're like, it's fine. But yeah, he was just there when my brother died. I mean, he's been there. He's been there to everything. We've been friends since we were about 10. Wow. Which is, I think quite rare. And it's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, dear friends. It's just really nice. I find a real safety and those people. People who knew you before you were doing Whatever you're doing now, you know, that's really special. And he's very special.

Rich 25:03 And how have you How did you do with sort of talking about it after it happened? Because a lot of people, and it's, it's quite a British thing. I think both Tom and I, to an extent, were like, well, that's a thing that I'll push down as far as possible. And deal with that when I'm an angry old man. But obviously, we're learning to talk about it, which is quite important thing was, is that something that came naturally to you to be able to talk to your friends about it and to sort of grieve? Kind of openly? Or was it a learning process?

Speaker 3 25:36 I think it's something that came naturally to me. I mean, I, I'm not English. And I think that helps. I mean, culturally, yeah, there is. There's not that pressure. And I'm also a girl, so I think that helps. But, yeah, my family's like Irish and Spanish. So we, we sing about our problems, you know, and that's very much who I am and who I've always been. It was immediately, like, just straight into storytelling mode and sharing stories about the people who died. And then, you know, everything's pretty I wanted to poem. So just trying to make sense and make art out of it. And writing songs and writing things and singing. I'm a big believer and just singing stuff out and laughing stuff out. And I think that, that really helped, like I sang at my brother's funeral. And I signed up my dad's as well. And I spoke at both the funerals as well, like, I was very just, I mean, I'm an actor, I've always been, I've always been that I always wanted to be that. And then I was lucky enough to do it as a job. But like, just functionally, I'm an actor, like, I could look at it and be like, what's missing from this story? Somebody who's like, stoic and strong and speaking, you know, saying small things that mean a large amount. And I was like, alright, well, I guess I'll have to do that. Like, I just sort of stepped into that role. I think it helped me. But it meant that like, later on, I needed to play the role of like, girl who lost her dad and her older brother, and like, lost all the, like, older male role models that she had, like little girl like, image that when I reached to, like, I don't know, 25 I was like, fuck, I am so sad and so alone about this, because I have I have, like, encouraged everybody to talk about it. And I've facilitated this like, let's talk about it. And let's celebrate it and let's you know, make it so that it's Isn't it beautiful? That dad was only sick for a week, because now we remember him as well. We don't have very many memories in the in the hospital. And isn't that beautiful? And, you know, my brother dying, being like, well, you know, it's great that he's gone now, because he had his, you know, he's travelled for years and years before he even settled down and had a family. Like, if anyone had to go young, it's good that he did, because he had his retirement already. He's already seen the world like that. Isn't that beautiful? Just finding the beauty in that stuff is always been my natural reaction to anything in the world. Anything sad and unhappy. It's always like, Where's the fucking poem in that? And then just my my weakness is actually just letting myself be be human. Like I literally said to my psychologist two weeks ago, oh, it's so disgusting. And he said, what I said, being a person Yark like, I'm just so disgusted at the fact that I have to be a human and like, have insecurities and just, you know, sometimes worry about like, if I'm thin enough, or if I'm going to fucking die or just like, I'm like, oh, yuck. Wouldn't it be nicer if I was like, a written person? It's so yucky that like, having to be a human. It's that it's that thing of like, you know, the horror of being truly known as the only thing that can get you to the joy of being truly loved. It's like, oh, can I just, but if you if I'm a little bit famous, and I go out on the stage, and I do my little songs, and they'll love me, they don't have to know me, like, surely I can get around this like, I don't know. But yeah, that's, that's kind of my experience. There's

Rich 29:09 no shortcut. That's the annoying

Speaker 2 29:10 thing. If I if I, if I was human, I sometimes look at my rabbits and go, Yeah, I could do that.

Rich 29:18 Oh, God, I remember that. I remember specifically from after my dad died every time I went home. And I was like, the first sort of year, year and a half. I had, like, you know, one thing we would call a break down. Quite quietly, I did it in a very British quiet way, where I just sort of sat inside a lot and was scared of everything. And I used to go home to visit my mom. And I get up in the morning and the cat would be asleep and I was like, God, I wish I was you. I wish I could just lie there and not worry about it. And I'll get up when I want and I'll shout and I'm gonna give me some food and I'll go back to bed. Sounds so much nicer than being a human and I'm to think about things.

Unknown Speaker 29:58 Yeah, I wouldn't eat it. It's an interesting feeling.

Speaker 2 30:01 I went home to my mom's. She lives in Scotland now as well. And and I sort of visited and my younger brother and sister, they're 11 years old. And my younger sister went to her room. So 11 in the morning, and the Windows was shot, and the lights were off. And she was just sitting on the edge of her bed. Just staring into the abyss. Is that normal?

Unknown Speaker 30:25 Wow.

Rich 30:27 I think your little sister is haunted. Haunted, I think she's from She sounds

Speaker 3 30:34 like she's probably an actor. In my personal opinion. That sounds like full leg. All right. I know. I've seen this scene. I know how to do this. Well, that's the

Rich 30:43 that's the thing you guys have got in common is that you're both musical families. Tom's from a musical theatre family. I don't know what was your dad a big like singer and

Speaker 2 30:54 obsessed with him? Yeah, amateur dramatics. He was always doing stuff on stage. He was in lots and lots of shows like which had like good good, like crowds of you know, a few 100 People in good venues is like, like Bournemouth of South of England. And he did Ted like generally he was like the leading man he would have ever since I was growing up, he would have these lead roles. I remember him being Max Bialystock and the producers when I was sort of 16 and he did this. Yeah, he was the whole thing you know, and it was a really good professional style production. They really did it well. And and I remember coming out of that show, thinking it was like the best thing I've ever seen. I'm saying to him like that was the bet that your that was your magnum opus, you'll never be better than that. That was an unbelievable and he got so annoyed that I said that.

Unknown Speaker 31:43 It never be better never think

Speaker 2 31:44 that you always have to be next one best course that was ultimately his best because, you know, really dwindling returns from then on.

Unknown Speaker 31:53 sucked in Yeah.

Speaker 2 31:54 Just, you know. I mean, he coasted now, all the way up until the end. He was due to be in Starlight Express. Before he had learned how to skate and everything. Diagnosis the week off. And he said I just don't feel so this guy's and I do sometimes really feel this tinge of regret about that, because I feel like I might have been able to convince him to do it. Yeah,

Rich 32:20 but if he didn't, if he didn't want to do it, one more, one last ride. Nobody wants to see a man weeping on rollerblades. That's the risk. That's true. Yeah, getting around the stage in tears.

Speaker 3 32:32 Is the risk. And I say that all the time.

Speaker 2 32:35 That's also a safety risk, of course, because the tears are clearly a slip hazard.

Rich 32:39 Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 3 32:42 Oh, that's devastating. But I wish she'd done it

Speaker 2 32:46 makes her where he was. He didn't want anything to be the last time he did something. I was wondering this. If you'd had an experience similar to this for your brother, where my dad wanted nothing to be the last time so there was there was no goodbye or anything like that. There was no, we still did things obviously you didn't stay inside. But we you know, we went to the zoo together. And it wasn't like this the last time we're going it was like it's a normal thing we're doing guys.

Speaker 3 33:11 Yeah. I mean, I think my brother sort of knew we'd watch my dad die so So recently, and my brother just was like, All right, this is it. Like when I went to Edinburgh? I didn't, I was gonna cancel the show and not go and he was like, No, you have to go. You have to go because you will keep living. And your life is important. I will not keep living. You can't stay for me. I'll be dust soon. Like he was just very, very. Yeah, but I mean, he he was kind of it was kind of magical the way he was so honest. And like, he loved travelling and he was like, I want you to go like, I want you to go and do these things and see these things. And he was just, he was like, Well, fuck, like, we've got to go and I can't go so you have to go. There was a sense of the last I mean, there was a sense of goodbye when I left to go to Edinburgh was we went to his house in which is in a different city and I went to see him and it was very much like this is where coming in case you die. Which he knew. And I think that was kind of all right. The last Christmas was like this is the last Christmas. Yeah. Which was just, you know, I don't know why, but he always seemed so wise and I always trusted him and maybe because he knew that maybe he knew that I trusted him and that I would feel safe if he said it's fine. That he just made it feel fine.

Speaker 2 34:50 We spoke about earlier about you talked about this kind of finding the beauty and the poetry in depth and he sort of referring to your parents and I sort of thinking about that about my dad and trying to think of what that was. And I suppose my version of that for my dad would be that he loved a bargain. Like this. He loves really? My dad. Oh, yeah, here we go. Now we've got some now we've got some common ground that yeah, lots of the deal was this man's life like any kind of like deal, bargain, getting something for nothing he was obsessed with, to the extent he lived and died by that to the extent that he literally only got his prostate exams, because he was able to get it for free. Oh, my God. And you can do that, by the way, we have universal healthcare here. He could have done that anyway, on the NHS. But no, this was a private this was like Bupa, he could get like, private prostate exam. Yes, please. I'll have one of those. Oh, my God, that's the kind of man this man was. Not that I imagined that. I don't really imagine that pry it whichever way you cut it, there's two fingers going up on right. I can't imagine that private versus public prostate exams,

Speaker 3 36:08 that you get to choose the fingers and that that's like a water

Speaker 2 36:11 feature. Like gentle, calming, that sounds a bit ultimately feel safe. But he was bragging about it. He was saying, yeah, no, actually, I got that on my partner's health care at work, actually. So I didn't have to pay for it. So that's funny. I'm like, he's like that for a while until obviously, he ultimately said, you know, he's like, Oh, they're sending me for another one. Yeah, lucky. Oh. By the third one, we were all a bit like. Even this is about he likes prostate exams too much. We're in trouble. And of course, subsequently, we were in deep trouble.

Rich 36:47 Were they all free, all free, all free. They'll have been happy about that. He would

Speaker 2 36:53 have loved that thing. So there is a sort of beauty in that in that the way he found out. It was if he had a way he could choose how to find out he had cancer, I'm sure that was the way in the private system for free. This way of doing it. I'd be you know, at the end, he had no really think about it. At the end, he had a hospital bed in his in his living room. So he was able to die at home, which is lovely kind of palliative care. They did. Oh, that's amazing that nessa Macmillan sort of made it all work and that kind of thing. That he didn't have to pay for that hospital bed. So I think I'm sure somewhere in there, he might have been thinking, Oh, hey, diet. Oh, got one over. So these are kind of dying for free. For free. So Rich, is there a kind of beauty or poetry in meningitis? Other than, I guess the link between illness and your dad being a doctor?

Rich 37:54 Yeah, I mean, this is not a positive good of poetry that he was ill with something to the point where he he was going to die. And he didn't realise. But

Unknown Speaker 38:06 I guess I really, I guess, yeah, it's a bit dark.

Rich 38:09 But one thing that we said at the time was, so Michelle, my dad had meningitis, but it sort of presented very suddenly. So he was he was fine. Then he was a little bit ill in the morning, and he just died. And that was it. So how do you get meningitis? Well, he was a GP. So I think he we reckon he caught it off someone who came in to see him, but it can live in your body. And then just sort of suddenly, like lots of people carry it, but have any symptoms and it never affects them and stuff.

Unknown Speaker 38:37 That's incredibly noble.

Rich 38:40 So he that's that's how he died. But the kind of dark poetry in it is that so he died and my, my brother and my mom were there and had to try and resuscitate him, but he'd gotten into cardiac arrest. So he was he was gone. And then they knew that he was gone. But as a, as a GP, he used to watch my mom used to watch Holby City, which is a British soap set in a hospital. She loved it, he hated it, because they always got it wrong. And so he would be very angry and be very angry in any film or TV series where someone had a cardiac arrest, and then got resuscitated. Because he was always like, you don't come back from a cardiac arrest. That didn't happen. You don't come back and you're fine, because someone's given you mouth to mouth or whatever. And so we were like that approach of it is that if they had successfully given him the solicitation, he would have yes, they would have proved him. So pissed off that his lifelong catchphrase if you don't come back from cardiac arrest had been proven wrong. So if anything, it was a happy ending, that he went the way that you did.

Unknown Speaker 39:50 At least you went out no believe

Rich 39:51 exactly. I like to think like Tom's dad with saving money that it was a moment where he was like, yeah, good luck with this one. See you later.

Speaker 3 40:01 So how long did did he he didn't suffer very long than

Rich 40:04 he was he fell ill the night before went to bed, woke up with a bit of a fever that morning. So took the morning off work was planning to go in in the afternoon, and then just fell into like a really deep sleep, woke up around midday, showered for help and was dead within three minutes properly. So it was very, very quick.

Unknown Speaker 40:24 are you grateful for that?

Rich 40:25 Yeah. I mean, we've we've talked about it a lot because we Tom and I had sort of opposite experiences. And there's there's upsides and downsides. There was no watching him deteriorate. By the time I found out he was dead. He'd been dead for six hours. But there was also there was no no goodbye. There was no sort of time and Tom had your dad was ill for two years. Yes,

Unknown Speaker 40:49 but rich. I've just realised I'm

Unknown Speaker 40:51 sure you had lots of goodbyes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:54 He was. He bluntly refused to have one. He I just realised that me and rich have had this debate repeatedly. Which is worse, rich, his dad dying quickly. My dad dying over a period of two years and watching him suffer. But Michelle Oh, you've experienced both? Oh, yeah. Yes. Holy hell. I mean, you actually might be able to, I mean, really, either settle it if it's in my favour or provide evidence to the contrary if it's enriches.

Speaker 3 41:28 Listen, I mean, it's different. My brother was younger and had more to live or my dad was like, he was retired. He, you know, off. I think if I am glad that my brother had more time and my dad had less time if it had been the reverse, I think it would have been very cruel. And that is what makes me think maybe it is better to have less time. But then I mean, I don't know. I've got two young nephews and one of my, my youngest nephew. He is so afraid that his mum will die. He is so a phrase. And he like she went into hospital because she This is the she is an incredible woman. She's a she's a nurse, and she is from Canada. She lives in Australia now. Her last partner before my brother, he died in a plane accident. And and now she's got these two kids. They're great, great boys. Both of them neurodivergent. She is autistic herself. They've got you know, they have there's a lot of high psychologist bills between them. But you know, we we're not American. So it's okay. You know, it's not the end of the world financially. But you know that it's a big, it's a lot to carry. And she's a nurse and she she most recently just got God, I've just forgotten what it is. But it's like you Okay, so you go, you're like gardening, and then you get you breathed stuff in and you get oh, Legionnaires disease. She had Legionnaires disease oh shit phase, which was just because she had been gardening without like a mask on which everybody does. And yeah, she got Legionnaires disease and she went to hospital and she was really sick. We didn't know what it was. And my nephew was just not well, like really sick about it really scared because he's seen someone go to hospital and not come back. And I think is somebody really young that's really hard to watch. I don't know, I remember after my after my dad died, I was really grateful that it was quick. I think for a parent quick is better. And I wish a quick death on my mom. I love my mom so much. And I don't want her to have to have a whole drawn out. thing I want to remember her you know, go in a golf and gossiping about the neighbours. I don't want to remember her in a hospital. Not able to go to the bathroom herself. And as someone who spent a lot of time in hospital, unable to walk, unable to move, unable to bend my knees. Even when I was young. Like that's awful. It's fucking awful. And it's humiliating. And I remember just lying there and be like, being like, what's what? Who's gonna want me now? Like, I'm so fucking useless? What would possibly go Well, for me, like the, the lack of hope is astonishing, and the lack of autonomy. And so I think I think quicker is better. But I think if it was me fuckhead one as much time as I could have I know that's a really rambling answer. But my brother lost his mind quite slowly and my dad didn't. So, you know, I didn't get to see the worst of my dad and I don't really remember him in the hospital. I remember him out. Whereas I remember my brother sick.

Tom Gerken 44:57 What you're seeing is really really, really interesting because cuz I'd only thought about this before from the perspective of physical illness seeing my dad looking unwell. But, you know, actually, it's so correct. I mean, the cancer spreads his brain like, and they had to take out parts of his brain that can affect the way your brain functions. And yeah, wasn't always clear, but certainly, and maybe it was also just the fact that he wasn't able to work anymore. And so he was watching a lot of YouTube videos and the algorithm, especially on your mail really starts going. Have you tried the pizza? Oh,

Speaker 3 45:35 yeah. Just ate meat? What if you just ate meat for a month? What do you think about that? Because meat is meat? Yeah. Yes. Do

Speaker 2 45:46 you watch one of those videos? And then your front page is just all of those videos? Yeah, not that he did. But but but I don't know. But. But certainly, by the end, when conversations took a slight political turn, because my job is sometimes words, he would occasionally just just pop up with an opinion, which really was quite sad to hear really quite sad to hear, because he was always a very smart man, very smart man, I always felt and I always I feel like a lot of what I've got, in terms of critical thinking comes from Him. And the way he taught me when I was younger, but by the end, you know, he didn't say anything along the lines of their illicit people in government. But right, yes, the concept was on the table. And I think that that was where we were starting to get to was was real conspiracy theories are starting to sneak in that that level of jet fuel can't melt steel beams. As a starting point. Yeah. He has clearly starting to open some doors, which I can't get into. Because my job. I think that was really sad to see that was really sad to see because it does affect your memory of somebody, when they when when you want to spend time you want to be around them as much as you can. There's not much time left. But the more time you're spending with them. You're not necessarily spending with the person you want to spend the time with.

Unknown Speaker 47:06 Yeah, yeah. It's really high.

Unknown Speaker 47:08 Philosophical, cool, Rich.

Rich 47:12 Is it? I was just wondering, because I obviously I didn't have this experience, but it's something that worries me you were saying about your mom, you hope that she she would go quickly? I have the same thought about my mom, I would I always feel like people whose parents develop Alzheimer's or dementia, would they? The idea that my mom would be able to remember me is very, very, sort of painful to think about. And I wonder with with your brother and with your dad, you hear people say like, oh, you know, he wasn't himself by the end? Is it? Can you separate those? Those two things? Can you sort of you have those memories of him, but are you able to go? That's not who he really was? Or is that actually that is a part of him? Just a horrible part of the end?

Speaker 3 47:59 I will for me, it's it's I was overseas when my brother lost himself and it all went downhill really quickly. Like he went home and started packing for a trip overseas and his partner cuz she's a nurse. She's so smart. She was like, Yup, and she helped him pack and then she took him to the airport. And the airport was the hospital. And that was it. Like it all. It all happened really quick. My mom saw it. My sister in law saw it, and my nephew saw it, but I didn't see it. So I was very lucky. And with my dad, you know, he held on to things for quite a long time. My nan, she she had Alzheimer's and it was really hard on my mum. Like I never knew my nan without Alzheimer's and I really watched it. chip away at my mom, how do you feel about I mean, you saw you saw your dad really lose it had? What's your response to this question?

Speaker 2 48:58 Um yeah, I didn't, I didn't like it. It really, it really sucks. To be honest. You know, because I, because the thing about dads, which I think I don't know why it's more of a thing, I have my dad, my mom, but I was always very, very, very eager to tell him when I did something good. You know? Yeah, my career is sort of the thing. I've done the best and getting this job in a prestigious newsroom and working really hard at it and writing stuff and appearing on radio and all these kinds of bits and bobs. When I would do that I would desperately quickly tell him Look at this. And he would be like, Come on, man. You're nailing it. And that was so good. By the end, when I would mention the thing I'd done at work that would sort of be a trigger for him to get into the topic of politics was often not good, unfortunately.

Unknown Speaker 49:58 And oh my gosh, That must have been awful.

Tom Gerken 50:01 It was sad. It was really sad. I mean, it kind of touched on a much broader sad note, which is that once your dad dies, or at least in my case, once my dad died, I constantly wanted to tell him, or actually, he used to text me and say I read this. And that was great. Oh, sadly doesn't anymore. That's so sad, man. Yeah, Reg.

Rich 50:27 That's one of the things that you do you get used to your dad or your your brother or someone not being around. But you don't ever really get used to that thing of not been able to tell them stuff. I find it quite hard that my my dad has never met my girlfriend. And that's a thing where you like, you would have really got on you would have really liked her and she would have really liked him. And it's it's sort of a thing that when I think about it, it's like, oh, yeah, that pain still there. And it's good to know. It's good. Yeah, to have a little shot of it every now and again and go, Oh, yeah. Okay, that's it. I still feel it.

Speaker 3 51:05 My brother was my biggest supporter. And I would, you know, write songs, and he would call me in the middle of the night with his friends at a party and he'd be drunk, and he'd be playing the song for the party. Like he'd taken over the music. He was so proud of me. And he, I, a lot of my friends and colleagues now are the people that were his favourite comedians and TV stars when he was growing up. And I wish, I wish I could tell him because he, he feels like he's the person in my family who would understand like my mum. I'm on, like, every TV channel in Australia, and she can put on any TV channel and I will at some stage in the night probably pop up. And she'll be like, but she, she doesn't get, like I said, Did you see this thing? And she'll say, yes, yes, that was good. Did you get paid for that? Like, I do, like, I don't work at a shop anymore. It's been a while, like, why don't you think like people stop you in street. Of course, I got paid for that. Blood, things like that. I just, she just doesn't relate to that was my brother had so much context, right? And so much understanding. He was the only person in my family who I could turn to and be like, you know, I just worked with this person. I just, you know, like, I it's just, yeah, it's just a weird, a really weird little thing. Like, I just got a compliment from a member of Monty Python backstage and like, you understand that, because you're the reason I watched Monty Python, like things like that. Yeah, that are just like, that's what's that's the biggest absences is, is that sort of, you know, father figure or, you know, older person figure that because my brother was like, 15 years older than me, like he was a proper adult. By the time I was even sentient, but he built me so much. And I loved him so much. I admired him so much that I became exactly who, who I, he, it's like, I'm his kid, like he, he was like, these are the things that are cool. And I was like, great, I love those things. And I just became all the things that he loved. And then I started doing them for a job. But by the time they were my job, he was gone. But it's also like, part of the reason that I do them as a job is because I went to Edinburgh that year. And because I just kept going and it's part of the reason that I just keep going, and I'm not afraid of like, I'm not afraid to put my hand up and be like, Let me have a go. I'm good. I'm, I promise. And if I'm not good, I'll fix it. Like, I'll figure it out. Like, just let me figure it out. Because I don't know how much time I have. And because I'm like, I'm sort of I feel like I'm collecting experiences for someone and I feel sometimes like there for him. Like, it's like when you're amassing things and you like to pass on as a legacy to a child. But this is not, I'm not gonna have children. It's not for a child. It's from it's from my brother, who and I'm not religious, like I don't think he's watching. It's just, it's kind of just for to point to and go, thank you. And I'm doing this because you showed me you open this door. And now I own the house of this door like it's and I really am sad about that.

Rich 54:21 What he said legacy there and that does it. It does almost feel like that's what this is all your career in it to an extent is his legacy. Because yeah, you're doing it because it was what he showed you. Sort of the way off.

Speaker 3 54:34 Yeah. And he could have done it, too. He was funny, and he was great singer.

Rich 54:38 How do you find the experience of talking about your dad and your brother onstage? Because you've done a average day, the show is sort of quite prominently about that experience. Yeah. Did it take quite a long time before you were able to do that? Or was it something that was part of the grieving process? Yeah, it took a

Speaker 3 54:57 while. I think I mean, My brother died in 2015. And I did average bear in 2020 2021. Because of COVID. Yeah, so I wrote it in like 2019. And I had been, you know, writing bits and pieces, I've been telling the story like storytelling nights for like, little 10 minute versions of it. And I just noticed how much it resonated with other people. What I really noticed was like how much it helped other people who are grieving. And I really liked that, that it could be something positive, and not because you know, I'm sick. There's so many. There's so many people willing to like, stand on stage and cry. And I was like, Well, I'm not gonna stand on stage and cry, like, I'm not doing that. I don't want people to pay me so they can watch me cry, and I can complain to them about my life. I'm not doing that. There's enough Lila, they don't, I'm not doing that. I was a big believer in like, I need to be finished processing all of this, before I tell the story, I need to have a handle on this so that it is a story. And not something that just is like sitting in my chest ready to hook on to any rib that I make available. Like I was like, I need to be able to get through this in front of my family in front of people who are dying, actively fucking dying. And I have like, this needs to be ready for anyone in any circumstance before I can do it. And so that's why it took me a while. But I love it. I mean, it's such a wonderful way to share grief, through laughter and music. Like for goodness sake, if there's anything about being human, that's nice. It's that like, it's so special. It everage bear is great, because I directly deal with them. But I think every time I'm on stage, they're always just kind of there. Like, I think you can tell from watching him perform, like sometimes I'll watch a play or something, and I'll walk out and I'll go, they've never lost a fucking thing in their life. And it's just like, you see this performance. It's like, oh, this is a lovely, like, caricature of loss or love, or whatever you think this is, and you're doing your best. And it doesn't mean you're not a good actor, it just means you've never lost anything and good for you. Well done, you hold on to that. I hope you never lose anything. But when you watch somebody who has lost something, there is no like, you're not worried about trying to appeal to a certain kind of person you're not, you just don't care as much about what people think. And so you're able to be kinder and more interested in people because you're not going I'm this kind of person, just so you know, I'm this and I'm that and it's not, you know, left and right and right and wrong. It's just like, it's it's asking questions, rather than trying to come and pretend you've got answers. It's, there's something that comes from grief that I didn't know. So I've started a speech I didn't mean to do.

Rich 57:43 But no, you're right. It's It's humbling in a way, isn't it? You realise that you don't have all the answers and you don't know everything. And yes, and that's and that's the thing when you see because I've we all have them. We've seen people either act or write or produce something that's about grief. And as soon as you watch it, you're like, you don't know what you're talking about. You think you do. You're imagining what this might be like, but you have no ideas and good for you. It's lucky. Great. Oh, yeah, that's, that's fantastic. Well done. But maybe don't tread on our toes. Yes. Luck in life.

Speaker 3 58:16 It's small moments. Grief is not about the death. Grief is about like, oh, fuck, what do we do with his ties? Like, that's what grief is?

Speaker 2 58:29 Oh, let me tell you something. It's all about that. I think probably it's a good idea if we start to wrap things up a little bit, because we've got about two hours of your evening. Yeah, sorry. Oh, my God. Oh my god. very mindful, but it's approaching 11pm Now in Melbourne and, or Melbourne? Or how have you, Melbourne, Melbourne, but thank you very much coming on. So when when's your Edinburgh show? Run? And you know, we've probably put a little you know, like, what's the what's the how do you plug it? Oh, yeah, a little plug is it Oh,

Speaker 3 59:05 good. A long everyone's dead. Um, it's, it's on the It starts on whenever the festival starts. And it ends whenever the festival and it goes through the entire time except for I think the 16th. But the internet will hold the answers to that it's at the gilded balloon at seven or 730. And, yeah, it's a show that I wrote. It's got a live band in it. And it's about the man that scammed me the true story, man scammed me online and how I became his friend, and eventually his emergency contact at the hospital. And my partner Tim plays the scammer, which is he hates doing, but it's very, very fun. So it's really it's a wild ride. It's very fun.

Speaker 2 59:47 Brilliant. So if you're listening you know what's in it, though. You're not sure exactly when or at what time. But other than that, roughly August I

Speaker 3 59:56 think it's at 730. In August, we'll check in the guild to balloon at TV et, which is in Bristow square, which is near the meadows, which is near Marchmont

Rich 1:00:07 Look, just if you can get to the gilded balloon for let's say, 630 just to be safe. Yeah. And then you'll give yourself half an hour at least to find it. You'll be fine. Yeah.

Tom Gerken 1:00:22 Well, fortunately for Michelle, we do know what time it is and where it is the gilded balloon to be yo Teviot. Natalia to that gilded balloon Teviot August 2 to the 15th as well as 17 to 27th. So basically for a whole month at 7pm and it's an hour long as basically every show at Edinboro, it is go along have a good time. We're both gonna go we rich,

Rich 1:00:45 we're gonna go Yeah, we're gonna try and meet up and go at the same time.

Speaker 2 1:00:49 Yeah, that's the plan. Yeah, yeah, I'll be I'll be definitely your show, too. Of course.

Rich 1:00:53 Oh, yeah. Good to be should mention, if you are in Edinburgh, and you're gonna go see Michel, why not? On a different day because the times do clash? Why not come and see little Ritchie's folds. I'm doing my show. Look, you lost me at Hootenanny is at the apex at 10, past six from the sixth until the 19th. It's a work in progress. But it'll be quite good. The later in the room that you can be dicey.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:20 I understand you've written a lot of it.

Rich 1:01:23 I've written more than all of it. I love and all of it. So it's only only 45 minutes. And I've got I've got significantly more than that. Okay, so yeah, it's just working out which are the best bits and then making them better.

Speaker 2 1:01:36 The bago, you can go and see rich, and if it does feel like it's dragging on a bit is only 45. So yeah,

Rich 1:01:41 believe it or not, it's actually a short show. He won't keep you the whole hour, and you're charging how much ticket it's free, or free. You can pay your ticket with, you can pay five pounds in advance. And then you've definitely got a seat, you can turn up on the door and hope is free. But then at the end, I will ask you for money. So it would save us all a lot of indignity if you just paid in advance.

Speaker 2 1:02:04 You don't want to be in a situation where you get there and it's sold out. Well, rich does. But you love that. Yes. You don't want to be in that. You also

Rich 1:02:12 don't want to be in a situation where you show up. It isn't sold out. You sit through the show is not very good. But at the end, I stand and you have to walk past me and say you know what? I don't think that's worth paying for. Nobody wants

Speaker 2 1:02:24 that be uncomfortable that and yeah, you know, so So and you're recommending five pounds is a really reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. So if you go, bring bring your fibres. Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. All right, great. I'm

Rich 1:02:38 not I'm not going to turn away a tenner. Don't get me wrong. No, no, but

Speaker 2 1:02:42 around, you would turn away for pound 90.

Rich 1:02:45 I'd knock it out. Yawns Yeah, absolutely. Luck. Is this. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:02:49 get the hell out of it. And

Rich 1:02:52 then when, as you were picking it up, I'd say now put it in the bucket. Yeah, I'd say but technically to me. That is nothing.

Tom Gerken 1:03:00 Yeah, you owe me 10 Pence as far as you're concerned. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So Well, I agree with you. And I'll be I'll I'm one of those days, I'll be there to help smack away the cache of foolhardy individuals. You bring it up? Well, I'm, hey, listen, I'm going to be I'm going to be buying my seat ahead of time. I don't want to be missing out. Or you know, I don't want to be one of the fools who might risk missing the show.

Rich 1:03:26 I'll buy you a pint to say thanks for that. But that offer is for time only. I can't afford to buy everyone a pint because it's probably more than five hours for a pipe. So I will be losing even more money that I've already lost on this massive vanity project.

Speaker 2 1:03:42 Just out of curiosity, if anybody does give you a fiver, how many people would have to come each night for you to break even?

Rich 1:03:48 What on on just the venue cost? Actually, not that many 50 off the whole over the whole run

Unknown Speaker 1:03:57 that will pay the value of a whole shebang?

Rich 1:04:00 Oh, the whole shebang? Well, I mean, we're talking sold out every night. And then I don't know. I was

Unknown Speaker 1:04:08 told that. You wouldn't.

Rich 1:04:11 And if we're talking the amount of money that I've invested into comedy over the six years I've been doing it then. I mean, I don't think that's never coming back. I need a salaried role. You've had to take leave as well. Presumably, yeah, this is this will be the most stressful holiday I've ever had in lieu

Tom Gerken 1:04:27 of that. So it's, yeah, well, anyway, much as you should do what I do and get to get ahead of time so you don't miss out on riches. You should you should do the same thing. So that you don't miss out on Michelle, gracious show reform, which I've already got my tickets. Very excited. I sort of mentioned the podcast I saw other show in London, which was very funny kind of musical singing thing. And this is similar

Rich 1:04:53 to how she built it as well.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:56 It's a good time.

Rich 1:04:57 It's kind of musical singing thing.

Tom Gerken 1:04:59 You Yes, I don't know if it'll have quite as much grief as the last with it, but maybe it will. Maybe it was just as much grief as this episode did, which had an extraordinary amount of grief.

Rich 1:05:10 Yeah. And that's one of the good things. If you've listened to this episode and you do love grief, you can still go and see Michelle and even if she didn't directly referenced the grief, you know, it's there. You know, it's behind everything. You know, she's gone through pain, and sometimes that improves the performance. Right? I think we've probably taken up enough of your time that was quite a long episode, but we had so much we wanted to talk to Michelle about that was, it was very hard to cut it down. We had hours, but that was, it was a long episode. You've got stuff to do. You've got life to live with. We can't stop you from living it because who knows you could die tomorrow. You could die tomorrow. As we always say death comes to us all, but it comes to you first week

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