Erin Hynes: In spring of 2022, New York City's Tourism Board launched

a Halal Travel Guide to New York.

The 11 page P D F highlights major sites in each of the city's five boroughs,

as well as halal dining options, Muslim friendly hotels, and places for prayer,

along with recommendations from locals who are part of the city's Islamic community.

Cultural specific guides are important in tourism.

They acknowledge how different cultural backgrounds can shape people's travel

experiences, and they help attract people from specific communities by showing

that a destination caters toward them.

There's financial incentive too.

By 2028, it's expected that Muslim travelers will spend 225 billion US

dollars on travel led in large part by Gen Zs, millennials, and women.

Halal travel is definitely having a moment.

So what is halal travel, and how inclusive is the tourism industry really

when it comes to Muslim travelers?

What barriers are Muslim travelers facing when they explore the world, and how

can the tourism industry address them?

We are unpacking these questions than more with Sumaya Hamdi.

Sumaya has taken the industry of Muslim travel into her own hands

with her organization called Halal Travel Guide, not affiliated with

the city of New York's P D F guide.

This is where she curates trips designed with Muslim travelers in mind.

Kattie Laur: Okay, so this is your reminder that if you aren't already

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info is in the show notes.

Okay, Erin, so I sent you this link to an article on D h Canada.

It is a list of the most disappointing Canadian cities according to tourists.

And I, I just need to know your thoughts on this list.

I guess first and more foremost, I'll just lay it all out there.

Here's what's on the list as I scroll.

So, Toronto, Montreal, oh, Vancouver, Ottawa.

Yeah.

And Quebec City.

Oh right, who wrote this?

Erin Hynes: Alpaca Pals.

This is why you cannot trust the internet.

And it's an

Kattie Laur: anonymous list, Erin.

It's only written by quote, national trending staff.

I should write the editor.

Listen, I am like just shocked that Toronto's on there because not to

like be the typical Canadian who lives around Toronto slash in Toronto.

And Toronto being the center of the world.

Toronto is not like that disappointing of a city to travel to.

There is so much stuff to do in Toronto.

Yeah.

And as someone who just moved out of the city a few years ago and like

regularly makes trips back a couple of times a month, every time I go

back to Toronto, I'm so excited and everything makes me happy there.

And I will also go on a rant about this because as a Christmas gift, I gifted

my parents this Toronto experience.

It was with a Chinese food writer who took them around Chinatown and

Kensington Market and like gave them history about that neighborhood.

Took them to all these restaurants where they could try food, like some

of the best places that she knew of.

And she got, they got to learn about like the people who owned those

restaurants and their history there.

And they had like, The best time and it was a like a private tour they

went with, I booked it on Airbnb and I think two other people booked it.

They just had the best time.

Like there's so many great things and so much history in Toronto that like you

can learn about and just be a part of.

Like how dare this list Trash Talk Toronto like this, I mean

Erin Hynes: allegedly this list is according to tourists.

Kattie Laur: So why do you think tourists don't like Toronto?

Erin Hynes: So, okay, as someone who's lived in Toronto for 10 years, downtown

Toronto, the Toronto hatred is real.

I am not from Toronto originally, so I know a lot of people outside

of Toronto and I hear often about how they don't like Toronto.

And the things I hear quoted the most are traffic.

Yes.

Which like every city has it also, I'm always just like, then don't drive a car.

Ride a bike like me.

And then, yeah, I've heard people say like, there's nothing to do other than

like the popular museums and the CN Tower.

And I think the problem is that.

There are a lot of like quote unquote mainstream attractions, and these

are sort of the default that people go for when they go to Toronto.

Mm-hmm.

I think the other issue is people always stay in the downtown core, which is

very, I don't know how to describe it.

It's just like high rises.

It's very like cement.

But the number one thing I tell people visiting Toronto, even like

people visiting from nearby Ontario places, I tell them like, don't stay

in that neighborhood, branch out, go into the other neighborhoods.

There's so many incredible neighborhoods in the city, and that's where

like the real life of Toronto is.

Like last summer I had a friend come and visit me from Ottawa

and she was blown away by.

The weekend we spent in Toronto, cuz she was like, this is not how

I ever spent a weekend in Toronto.

Coming here just as a tourist without someone local to hang out with.

But that's the problem, right?

Like not everyone knows someone in Toronto who can show them a good time.

But I think the key is just to do some research and like go to

other neighborhoods like Chinatown Kensington Market is pretty touristy.

But I would say like that's definitely a good place to start.

Go west, go to like Little Italy, Korea town, all those neighborhoods

are incredible Parkdale.

I keep telling everyone to go to Parkdale, go to the Toronto Islands.

I always tell people like, take advantage of Toronto's parks.

Like so much of Toronto life is like centered around parks.

Mm-hmm.

Just go and sit in Trinity Bellwood and you'll experience a different

side of Toronto that you're not gonna experience in the entertainment district.

Kattie Laur: Okay, so this article also lists the most lackluster

touristic attraction for the city according to tourists.

What do you think that is?

Erin Hynes: I feel like most people say the sand tower, it's the zoo.

I mean, to be honest, like why would you, like I didn't travel

somewhere else to go to a zoo.

I mean, maybe if it was like a world renowned zoo.

Kattie Laur: This is what I'm wondering.

I'm like, who is

Erin Hynes: zoo I'm?

I've never been

Kattie Laur: so I, well, apparently it's lackluster, so apparently not.

Okay.

I wanna get through a couple of these other cities cuz

it's just so hilarious to me.

Ottawa, this is where you are born and raised.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts on Ottawa being lackluster?

Erin Hynes: People who know me personally know that I really don't

like Ottawa, but this is like a, a bias cuz I had a biased experience.

Right.

I grew up there and the reasons that I don't like it is because I just

didn't find the community that I want.

There.

Some people absolutely love living there and I actually fully understand

why tourists would like Ottawa.

Mm-hmm Because there's actually so much to do there and it's an interesting city.

If you like wanna learn about like politics in Canada, you

can go to Parliament Hill.

There's so much nature nearby.

I actually think it's a great city to visit and because it's the

center of government in Canada, they put a lot of money into

keeping Ottawa like really nice.

I used to have friends who visited from abroad and they would always comment on

how like clean and manicured Ottawa is.

So it, it has a different vibe than other Canadian cities and some people really

like that also has really good museums.

Kattie Laur: Yeah.

I mean if you're into museums and history then this is like

the place to be for sure.

If you're into like exploring culture and all of that stuff.

I don't feel like it's the place to be.

Erin Hynes: I don't feel I can comment on it cuz I haven't lived

there for like 15 years now.

I think like one of the roughest parts for tourists probably is the infrastructure

there for getting around is really bad.

Yes.

Like you kind of need a car to get around Ottawa.

Kattie Laur: Lastly, I just wanna touch on Montreal because I.

I'm obsessed with Montreal.

I love Montreal so much.

Every time I go there, I'm so happy.

I love all the stuff that they have.

If you go in the summertime, you might catch the jazz festival.

There's like so many amazing places to eat and have cocktails.

If you're into a cocktail scene, there's so many places to enjoy music.

There's, it's just, and so many different kinds of music.

Like how can you hate Montreal?

Erin Hynes: I truly don't know.

I truly don't know.

I li so I lived there for five years.

When I moved to Toronto, I for like three years was like,

I'm going back to Montreal.

Like, Toronto sucks.

Yeah.

Took, it took a while for me to become a Toronto, a Toronto person.

Um, the only reason I didn't move back is cuz I didn't have friends there anymore.

And, and having community and friends is really important to me, but I

truly think it's a more livable city than Toronto because there's

so much going on all the time.

They're just doing a lot of things right in that city.

It's a

Kattie Laur: very easy city to get around.

Like, you can bike everywhere and you're not even necessarily

biking in the road too.

You can bike through tons of alleyways.

There's so many parks, so many parks where you can just go and sit.

And also, unlike Ontario, you, there's, you can have like alcohol

kind of out in the open and you can get alcohol at Depper.

Yep.

Yep.

So you can just like, everything is just very easy to, it's

easy to have fun in Montreal.

Everything's so easy and they've got the best bagels.

Yes.

So tourists did not think that the Biodome was very exciting.

Erin Hynes: Uh, I mean, I liked the Biodome.

Kattie Laur: Okay.

I've never been so,

Erin Hynes: I mean, I think it's worth going to.

It's

Kattie Laur: cool.

Well, my question to you is just given like these landmark attractions that

this article is saying like, were not very interesting, what does that kind

of tell you about like, The tourism representation of these cities.

Like I would never think of Toronto actively advertising its zoo as

the place for tourists to go.

Erin Hynes: I know.

That is interesting.

It seems weird.

Yeah, because I mean, lots of people have asked me, whenever someone

goes to Montreal from Toronto, they ask me what should I do?

And I don't think I've ever told anyone to go to the Biodome.

Like I went to the Biodome in Montreal, like in the depths of winter when

I just needed something to do on a Saturday and it was nice for that.

But like if I'm going to Montreal in the middle of summer with all the

festivals on and the good weather, it's not really where I would head first.

I think it's, I think some of these things end up on the lists

because they're good for families.

If it was a family going to Montreal, I would definitely say go to the Biodome.

So I think sometimes that has a bit of an influence of like

where people end up going.

That could be the zoo as well.

Like I know lots of families go to the zoo.

Totally.

Kattie Laur: Final question for you.

What city do you think is missing from this list?

Well,

Erin Hynes: I don't think any Canadian cities are disappointing, actually.

Maybe Calgary, maybe.

The thing is when you're in Calgary, you're really

close to Banff National Park.

I spent some time in Calgary and I definitely was like, No desire to go back.

There wasn't much to do and the weather was really bad.

Kattie Laur: I mean, this list is just rude.

I wouldn't even put Brantford on this list.

Like Braford has fun things to check out and if I had people visiting, I.

I would definitely have a whole list of things for them to check out in Brantford.

Yeah.

And that's just a matter of like consciously trying to get to know

a city better and like knowing what exists and what opportunities are there.

Because I mean, when I first moved to Brantford, before I even

moved to Brantford, like I cried knowing that I was likely going

here cuz I was like, it sucks.

Like I was so upset and then when I moved here I actively was

like, this has to be fun for me.

And so I consciously was like, okay, I need to find like where

the culture is, what people are up to, like what people really love.

And I've been like so excited to find so many cool things here.

Even though like there's a lot of boomers here who hate everything, but there's

a lot of young people here who are like trying to make this city really awesome.

Um,

Erin Hynes: but that's different cuz it's like you're living there.

I know, but I don't dunno about a tourist coming to Brantford, how they would

Kattie Laur: feel.

Well, I'll just set up a tourist list for it.

I'll, I will set you up with an itinerary.

It just has to be on a specific day.

Well, and

Erin Hynes: listen, I feel like you're getting at this anyways,

but like, like Luke and I famously always loved the cities that

people tell us we're gonna hate.

Like I always talk about Amman in Jordan, people, everyone was like, skip Amman.

Don't spend more than a day there.

We ended up loving Amman so much that we went back on the same trip.

Like we spent two days there and then at the end of the trip we made a point to go

back and spend more time in Amman, because I think this rule applies everywhere.

Cities are what you make of them.

If you put in effort like you're gonna find.

Beautiful things in every city.

Mm-hmm.

People said the same about like Mumbai and like cities in India and we loved all the

cities in India, but I think it's because like you have to put a bit more effort

into finding the good stuff in a city.

A lot of it for me is just like wandering around and like seeing,

seeing just people living their lives.

I find that interesting.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: My name is Sumaya.

I live in London and I am the founder of managing director of a

company called Hellar Travel Guide.

Essentially what we do is we curate tools, design with Muslim travelers

in mind, and what that means on a kind of practical, very simple level is,

If you kind of look at, okay, what does it mean designing a treatment?

Muslim travelers in mind?

Muslim travelers are kind of very indicated to in the general travel market,

but it's, uh, the Muslim travel market in general is actually the fastest growing

segment in global travel and tourism.

It's gonna be worth around 11% of the global travel market.

Very soon.

It's coming up to around 250 billion.

Uh, so the money is there, the statistics are there, but.

Still, it's such an underserved market and as a young Muslim traveler

myself, I've personally experienced many of the challenges that so

many of us face, which is lack of access to good quality halal food.

You know, like when you travel, one of the joys of traveling is trying out the local

food and you wanna be able to do that.

But it can be a little bit challenging as a Muslim traveler.

Um, another one is getting access to pray facilities.

Muslims pray five times a day and it can be a little bit hard to do

that if you are on the go and you're not aware of places where you can

just have a quiet minute and pray.

And also kind of activities that are kind of Muslim friendly, you

know, just, um, cookery classes, tour, little things like that.

So experiencing these challenges myself has really kind of.

I think being the, the spurring, uh, the key motivation for me to try and make

it easier for other people to get access to good quality travel experiences and,

and boost, uh, people's confidence to feel like they can travel, they should

travel and not just go to kind of safe space, safe spaces, but go somewhere

completely different where you might not think actually, I, I would be

welcome here or I would find, find it easy to have an enjoyable time here.

So that's kind of at the heart of what I do.

Erin Hynes: Amazing.

I'm really excited to chat a bit more about these challenges and also

solutions that you've come up with.

But I actually wanted to chat a little bit about your

connection to travel growing up.

Before we get into it, cuz I was reading on your website that you referenced

traveling to North African destinations as a kid, and you mentioned that

your family went there because it was easier to travel as a Muslim family

Soumaya T. Hamdi: there.

Yeah.

I think it's natural for anyone, for people in general to kind of lean

towards traveling to destinations where you know, you're gonna feel

comfortable, whether it's to do with the food or the culture or the language.

And uh, my father, he's actually Algerian, so we used to visit Algeria, actually.

I used to go by myself with my brother.

Um, in the summer holidays you'd spend like the whole of the summer

holidays there, but we also used to go and visit Tunisia as well.

And it was just kind of an easy place to go to as a Muslim traveler

because back then it, there weren't really kind of any, uh, destinations

marketing to Muslim travelers.

And in fact, 20, 30 years later, that's still pretty much the case.

There's still a lack of marketing designed to sh to say to Muslim travelers, Hey,

if you come here, we, we'll be catering to you and, and we'll we'll be, you

know, giving you access to things like halal food and prayer facilities.

But that is starting to change traveling, um, experiencing these

travelers challenges as a child, I think has really kind of, Stuck with

me cuz I, I've always wanted to travel.

I love learning about history.

I was a proper history nerd.

I studied politics in history at university and I feel like, uh, one

of the best ways to be able to connect with history is by meeting people from

different backgrounds and, and different experiences, different life experiences.

So, although it was a little bit hard, I think it's only kind of, uh, encouraged

me more to travel and it encouraged me to kind of against odds, try harder to, to

access these, hard to find experiences.

And what does travel

Erin Hynes: look like for

Soumaya T. Hamdi: you today?

Yeah, so most of my travel is either, uh, going with guests.

On some of our group tours or traveling with my family, I have two young children.

Most of the time it's, it's for the company, whether it's kind of

researching a destination, I mean, before we run a tour to a place, we

kind of have to scope it out for us.

So we'll head out there, we'll meet the local people.

We'll try and get a feel for the place.

Cuz you can read a guidebook, you can read about it online, but on

the ground it can be very different.

And you also wanna get to know the people that you're gonna be working with and

get their feedback as well as to what you should include in an itinerary or

certain things that you can't find online.

And so I find it really helpful just to head out in advance

and do little research trips.

I usually do it with a friend or with a family member where we'll go

in and kind of meet local people.

And actually we have a research trip coming up to, um, Georgia

and as a write down, which will be really interesting because such an

interesting part of the world, right?

Mm-hmm.

The caucuses.

But there are hardly any Muslim friendly trips.

That go to the caucuses, which I think is such a shame.

So we are super excited to kind of be able to spearhead that hopefully and,

and work around some of the challenges and, and bring that so that people can

have something a little bit different and feel like this is accessible.

I can do this.

And I think that's the main thing about Halal travel.

It's not, it's not really complex.

It's really very simple.

It's just about Muslim travelers wanting to feel like they can go to

destinations that aren't back home visiting family or safe spaces, uh,

destinations like Muslim majority countries where they, they feel like,

yeah, I'll, I'll probably feel welcome.

They wanna be able to push the boundaries and, and go to places

where they may not feel comfortable.

And I think, sadly, some people have had negative experiences traveling where

they, they lose the confidence to do that.

And I, myself did have experiences like that growing up.

I mean, I remember one time when I was, I think around 16 years old,

this was actually in, in Tokyo, which is um, the majority country.

I remember we were.

At the beach, and this was before Burkinis were invented.

So I was wearing, I think like, I don't know, a t-shirt and

leggings or something like that.

And I remember an old elderly man just gave me a horrible look and said, you

know, like, why are you wearing that?

And it wasn't Turkish, but his, his meaning was clear.

You know, it's like the way that you are dressing is not welcome here.

It doesn't look good for the community.

It doesn't look good for the destination.

And I was just a teenager trying to have a nice time on

holiday minding my own business.

You know?

So things like that are, are common stories that you'll hear

among young Muslim travelers, especially women as well.

And it's moving past that and feeling like, yes, okay, these things happen,

but they're where there's every negative interaction has two or three

very positive interactions that can dispel that and, and give you the

confidence to keep going and keep trying.

It

Erin Hynes: sounds like a lot of it like might have to do with awareness

because even you mentioning about finding a safe place to pray five

times a day while you're abroad, that's something I never, ever have considered.

So that's news to me, and I'm sure there's lots of people around the

world who, who just don't know.

And so bringing more awareness is a big piece of this.

Yeah.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: I think it's also awareness and thinking without

having to kind of, uh, really go overboard to, um, make adjustments.

Mm.

I mean, what I'm thinking in my mind is in South Korea and Japan, what they've

done is they have multipurpose rooms where you can nurse your baby, for example.

Or, um, have a quiet prayer space and they have these in like the underground

tube stations or just like in random places dotted across the city.

So people can use them for different things.

And what they have done is repurpose them so that you can also use them for praying.

And it just has to be like a clean, clean space, a quiet space where you can

do that and then continue on your day.

So it's not a case of building mosques or building prayer horse.

It, it's really can be very simple and, and in fact, even when it comes

to praying while you're traveling, We do have, um, a little adjustment

that we can make, which is when you're traveling, you can sh uh, shorten your

prayers and you can batch them together.

So rather than praying at five separate times of the day, you can

pray at three times of the day.

Uh,

Erin Hynes: okay.

So it's not like a super strict schedule.

You can sort of morph it to work with your day.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: Yeah.

So when you're traveling, the idea is you shouldn't put yourself

under undue pressure or make life harder for you than it needs to be.

And so we have quite a few exemptions for people who are traveling.

For example, if you are traveling in the month of Raan, you don't have to fast.

Um, you can make up the fast later when you're no longer

traveling, cuz traveling is hard.

I mean, I'm sure you know, right?

Yes.

It can be as romantic and exciting as it sounds or as

cool as it looks on Instagram.

When it comes down to the nitty gritty, it can be so challenging and it really helps

you to get to know yourself as a person.

If you're traveling with a friend, sometimes it can make

or break a friendship, right?

Because that's where you really get to know each other.

And I think that's such a beautiful process.

It's such a beautiful experience that more people should be

able to, to have access to.

Absolutely.

Erin Hynes: Um, so I actually wanted to say if you're listening

and you aren't familiar with Halal, it just means food that is

permissible according to Islamic law.

And commonly you'll see it applying to meat, um, which has been slaughtered

and blessed in a specific way.

Um, before we chat a bit more about this sumaya, I wanted to ask if

there's anything I'm missing there.

That's it.

Yeah.

Perfect.

So on your website, you talk about how one of your experiences growing

up was going to the beach with home cooked meals because you knew there

wouldn't be halal food available nearby along with bringing food from home.

You also talked about how you would wear makeshift modest swimmer because

Burkinis hadn't been invented yet, like you were mentioning in Turkey.

I think this anecdote is a good segue into talking about some more of the

barriers that Muslim travelers are facing.

So food isn't something we've talked about yet.

Could you talk a bit about this and how it factors into the travel

experience for Muslim travelers?

Yeah.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: So I'd say by and large Muslims, we are big foodies.

Um, a lot of us come from traditions of amazing gastronomy and, and recipes

passed down from generated to generation.

So we love food as, as a kind of social glue and as a way of.

Literally tasting other cultures and, and immersing yourself in travel experiences.

And so it can be quite upsetting to feel like you can't do that

when you're traveling because, for example, the food isn't halal.

Maybe it has, it might have fish in, for example.

Fish doesn't have to be sorted in a certain way, but if there's alcohol in

the dish, then that's not permissible because we don't drink alcohol.

So little small things like this that people may not be aware of.

And I think there is a growing awareness now of what it means to serve halal food.

These are small challenges that can be overcome much in the same way that

you now have, uh, more establishments acknowledging things like veganism

and, and catering to veganism or simple dietary requirements like lack

of nuts or all allergies to nuts.

So it's just about a kind of raising awareness.

And one of the best ways I think that's happened is because the

halal food industry itself is another billion dollar market.

It's.

Rapidly growing.

I mean, I, I can see myself in the last 10 years or so that I've lived

in Wembley where before there was only like a handful of halal food places.

Now there are loads and, you know, really nice kind of gourmet restaurants.

And this is a growing trend that we are seeing, uh, in, in lots of destinations.

I say in many of the major cities in the uk.

But also if you're looking really further afield, places like South

Korea for example, has done an excellent job of learning and

understanding what Muslim travelers are looking for and catering to that.

And so they've been holding for a few years now.

Uh, it's an annual festival.

It's called the Halal Restaurant Week, and it actually lasts a month.

It's not a week.

During that time, you have all these kind of promotions and discount codes where

you can go and visit lots of different restaurants all over the capital.

Seoul, I think primarily in Seoul.

That will be serving halal food.

And some of those dec uh, some of those restaurants might not be serving halal

food on a regular basis, but it's a good way for them to kind of see, well, how

much interest is there in this service and how difficult is it for me on a practical

level to be able to offer this service?

So not only is it a great way to raise awareness for restaurateurs and, and

people in involved in the tourism industry, but it's also a great way to

show with some travelers that, Hey, we are really interested in attracting you

and we understand what you want and we are taking note and hey, we've organized

Halal Restaurant Week so that you can come and enjoy authentic Korean beef bulgogi

or ramen and all of those cool dishes that you see on KDRs or on Instagram.

So these kind of initiatives are starting to pop up.

I'd say Hong Kong as well is another tourism board.

The Hong Kong Tourism Board itself actually in recent years has even got a

microsite dedicated to Muslim travelers, and it has a big image of two women

wearing a headscarf kind of again, just.

Small things like that show acknowledging the representation can have such a huge

impact on the way that Muslims feel, uh, when they're choosing a travel destination

and inclining them to visit that destination more over another destination.

Yeah.

I'd

Erin Hynes: love to ask a bit more about representation, because this

is something we've talked about often on the show about just how

representation in tourism media has just been so, like white and male mm-hmm.

For so long.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

Like how have you seen it evolve just in your lifetime?

Yeah.

I mean,

Soumaya T. Hamdi: it's funny because if we're being honest,

mu Muslim media representation in general is very negative.

It does have a kind of a psychological impact, I think, whether it's conscious

or subconscious on the way that Muslims, especially young Muslims, you

know, growing up it can be quite hard the way that we perceive ourselves.

And if you kind of think of any travel magazine.

Across the board, any of those famous names, I'm not gonna name any, cuz

you know, they're quite well known, but any of them that pop up in your

mind, how many times could you say you've actually seen a visibly Muslim

traveler featured in the magazine?

In any of, uh, the articles.

Few and far between, if any.

And most of the time if you did see a visibly Muslim traveler in an image,

it's going to be in a service position.

For example, you might see a Moroccan woman wearing a headscarf pouring

tea, or, or a Moroccan man in, in a headdress where pouring tea.

So it's usually the other way around where you're seeing

people visiting that destination.

And you know, Muslims are very well known for being very hospitable.

Some of the most hospitable countries in the world like Moroccos, Saudi Arabia,

Jordan, Turkey, these are based on Islamic cultures and Islamic values.

So it's a big issue.

But I think we are certainly at Halal travel guide.

We're trying to fill in that gap by just creating our own content and

creating our own narrative and, and giving people confidence to, despite

not seeing themselves in countries like South Korea or Hong Kong or, or

Japan, which are destinations that most of us really would not have

considered visiting even a few years ago.

That's changing and it can change with something as small as an an Instagram

photo in a caption or a blog article, and bit by bit, I think when you kind of take

hold of that narrative yourself and you don't allow what general media portrays

it, it's one step further towards taking control of the decisions that you make

when you're choosing how to travel and how it can enrich your life experiences

and build on your identity as well.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

So obviously these barriers, like lack of representation and um, challenges

in finding halal food make travel more challenging from a practical

perspective for Muslim travelers.

But I'm curious about how these barriers might impact you

and other Muslim travelers in terms of your Islamic identity.

Do you feel that there isn't enough accommodation for Muslim

travels in the tourism industry?

And how does that impact you, like mentally?

Soumaya T. Hamdi: Yeah, I mean, the a hundred percent there isn't enough.

And part of it is to do with the fact that 10 or 15 years ago, there wasn't

really a market for this kind of leisure tourism, uh, in the Muslim travel market.

It, it was kind of small, but growing and, and, and not particularly recorded,

I don't think even, to be honest, because Muslim travelers have always traveled

to visit certain places, but it's, it's never really been kind of on the map.

It's only in the last.

10 or 15 years or so that people have started to notice that you've

got a really high proportion of high income young Muslims.

I mean, about 70% of the global Muslim market is aged under 40.

Around 60% is aged under 30.

And so you can just see kind of from a demographics perspective, you've got

millions of people, in fact, you know billions who are coming into their

most financially productive years, they're starting to marry much later,

so they're having children later.

And so they've got the time and the money to travel and explore the world.

And especially with globalization and the social media, they want to be

able to access new travel experiences.

So not being able to see that offered in the mainstream travel market.

Is no longer being a barrier anymore because people are realizing, well, I can

actually find a way to do this myself.

You know, for example, in the last couple of years we've been

invited to sit with tourism boards.

Like New York, for example.

I think is is a great example where you wouldn't imagine, I mean, certainly

we wouldn't have imagined a few years ago that New York would be interested

in attracting Muslim travelers because why would they establish tourism

destination and they have a brand.

But they have come forward and said, actually we recognize

that this is a valuable market.

It's a growing market, and it's very underserved.

We don't have any idea about how we can access Muslim travelers.

What do we need to do to be able to, to change that and, and access

this market and and services market.

So I think money makes a big difference in terms of encouraging

tourism board's, destinations, um, to recognize that there is value to

be had in investing in this market.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's like coming from an altruistic.

Uh, perspective.

I mean, you know, it's, it's business ultimately, but because of the kind

of challenges that we have faced, kind of growing up with negative Muslim

perceptions in the media, particularly over the last 20 years or so, I think

this has a profound impact on the way that Muslims make their travel decisions.

And that's why exploring Islamic heritage can be such a motivator, because naturally

any human being wants to be able to seek out stories that are related to

them about their heritage, about their identity, about their, their ancestors.

Just like any human would like to, and they want to find stories that

are actually inspiring and positive.

And there are so many of those that are not known even in the Muslim community.

For example, in Uzbekistan, it was home to.

So many, uh, uh, scientific achievements and scientific discoveries

and, and things like naming a lot of the stars that we have today.

You know, there's some, a lot of the names of stars, if you just kind of look

at a star map, they come from Arabic words or they were from Arabic words

and they were from Muslim scholars located in places like Uzbekistan and,

and in Iraq who took the time to create instruments that would enable them

to map the solar system and, and map the planets and this kind of thing.

So little things like this can make a difference towards helping, especially

young Muslims, feel like actually I have a heritage to be proud of

that identity, to be proud of and feel confident in without feeling

like I have to kind of hide myself.

And so, So things like that can make a big difference.

But ultimately, I think just like anyone traveling Muslim

travelers want to feel welcome.

And so it doesn't necessarily mean, uh, exploring Islamic heritage.

It can mean just going to Korea, learning about Korean heritage, or going to

Japan and learning Japanese customs by trying on a kimono and doing a tea

ceremony or visiting a Samurai show.

I mean, these are all things that Muslim travelers love to

do, just like travelers anywhere.

Erin Hynes: I've actually read, like there's a long history of travel and

exploration in Muslim history as well.

Like Muslim people were paving the way for travel like hundreds of years

ago and there's really interesting history about this that I've been

reading that like gets overlooked a lot.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of from a philoso philosophical

perspective, We believe, and we've been taught that you are in this world as a

traveler, so don't get too attached to it.

Don't get too attached to things and worldly achievements.

You should care a little bit more about things that are bigger than that.

So our whole philosophy is based on that.

But in the Koran as well, there are a lot of references to travel.

Like, uh, God advises us in the Koran to travel and observe and, and see how,

how the world is, how landscapes are, observe, how people are, and how you

have different tribes and different cultures and different ethnicities.

The point being that you can learn so much from this experience and also

comes to the realization that we share so much more than we are different.

Erin Hynes: To lean into that a little bit more actually, I'm curious

about how you're able to predict whether or not a destination will be

accommodating for Muslim travelers.

So what kind of research do you do and what kind of things are you looking for?

Soumaya T. Hamdi: So, I mean, now that it's very easy to plan trips online,

it's so much easier now than it was like 10 years ago to just kind of.

Do some searches to see if people have compiled lists, for example,

best halal restaurants to try, I don't know, in London or Paris or, so that's

a really good starting point, and I think most people probably start their

search with food is their availability of halal food, because if there

isn't, it's not the end of the world.

It's just you kind of need, you know, what to expect, um, and, and

what kind of food you'll be eating and whether that's something that

is, is gonna be appealing to you.

So it usually starts off with that.

And if you can find readily available information online, then certainly for the

destination, that's a big boon because you are much more likely as a Muslim traveler

to visit if you know that there is some sort of availability of halal food.

Even better if it's halal food that's in the style of the local cuisine.

Like I mentioned earlier, you know, you're just kind of generic what you

might expect or what someone might think in Muslim eat because Muslims come

from all and, you know, all sorts of cultures and, and foodie backgrounds.

And so there's no kind of one set rule about what Muslims like to eat.

So that is kind of the biggest green flag that you, you might look out for.

I'd say a red flag is probably, um, in the way that a destination is known

for treating Muslim women because we are obviously the most, uh, visible

members of the Muslim community and where you hear reports of women being

told they can't wear a bikini, for example, or being told that they're

not welcome to wear their heads scarfs at institutions or in workplaces.

That's a big red flag and it can put people off choosing to visit to that

destination whether they wear a headscarf or not, because it's a good indicator.

For how welcome you're likely to feel and how welcome you are.

Yeah,

Erin Hynes: well like why would you wanna travel somewhere where you know

that there's going to be discrimination?

Yeah,

Soumaya T. Hamdi: I mean sadly so people still do because we had

such a low expectation we as, as to what we should expect as Muslim

travelers, especially if you'd be living in Europe or the US or Canada.

We kind of got used to it, you know, cuz a lot, some of these experiences happen

in your own communities where you live, you know, you kind of get used to this

type of treatment and so you kind of think, well if, if it happens abroad,

it's just much more of the same at home.

But now that destinations, like I mentioned earlier in far East

Asia, like South Korea and Japan are actively trying to show that we

want to welcome you as you are and we are happy to have you as you are.

Muslim travelers are becoming much more discerning and they recognize

that they have a value and they.

Want to be able to choose destinations that will value

Erin Hynes: them.

Yeah.

If it's a choice between the two, you're of course going to go with the destination

that is actively putting effort towards like giving you a positive experience.

Yeah.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: And I should say actually, like, this isn't different

if it's a, a Muslim majority country.

So there's something called the oic, you might have heard of it.

It's called the Organization of Islamic Countries.

I believe it's the second largest organization in the world after the un.

And essentially it's, uh, organization of Muslim majority countries.

And you might assume that all of those destinations will be places where Muslim

travelers are welcome, but you only have to look on social media to see women in

particular, again, Muslim women reporting where they've been to, uh, a hotel

in places like Morocco or in Tunisia.

Uh, where they've been told they're not allowed to wear a bikini,

any bikinis or swimsuits allowed.

Hmm.

But, and that's, even if it's a bikini that's, you know, completely compliant

and, and made of the right type of material and X, y, z, it's, you know,

in those circumstances it's very clear that it's just, we're not welcome there.

And so it's, it's a huge challenge.

It's very upsetting.

But like I said, because other destinations are recognizing the

value of having Muslim travelers visiting and they are putting that

message out there, Muslim travelers are becoming much more discerning and

they are showing that with their feet.

Erin Hynes: Ugh.

Hearing that, it's just so frustrating cuz it's just like women just have to

be criticized for like, Everything.

Like you just, just let us wear what we wanna wear.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: It's always down to the clothing, isn't it?

It's

Erin Hynes: always about clothes.

It always is.

And I guess it all boils down to a person's like personal boundaries as well.

Cuz like with food even, yes, I know.

Like I have food allergies and I sometimes find like I'm just not in the mood to try

to talk to someone about what I can't eat.

And so like it'll shape the way my day goes.

And I'm sure some of it boils down to that for Muslim traveler as well.

Like how much do they want?

Have to talk about it, or do they want an easy trip where you can just walk

into a restaurant where it says on right on the door, like halal food offered.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: Yeah.

Honestly, that's another thing as well.

It's that social anxiety.

Yeah.

I can really relate to that because growing up I really did not wanna have

that conversation with a waiter, so I would just automatically be like,

okay, just gimme a margarita pizza.

Yeah.

Job done.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

Yeah.

Pick your battles sometimes, honestly.

Yes.

So I wanted to chat a bit more about Halal Travel Guide, um, which

runs trips for Muslim travelers to destinations all over the world.

I noticed that many of the trips have a special focus on exploring Islamic

history, and your website says that the goal of this is to help Muslim

travelers own their own narrative.

I'm sure for some travelers on your tours, part of the experience is

learning heritage that might be very close or relevant to them.

Why is it important for you that Muslim travelers have the

chance to learn these histories?

I mean, the main

Soumaya T. Hamdi: reason is because narratives are often dictated to us, and

you internalize them and you feed that into your identity and therefore your

life choices and what you think you can or can't do based on the narrative that.

You have heard all your life, and it can have such a huge impact

on the way you live your life.

And growing up kind of in a hostile climate, it naturally puts you off travel.

I mean, I could give you an example, traveling to Switzerland a few years

ago with my husband and my daughter, I think she was four years old at the time.

We went through passport control and uh, there was, I think a

French family in front of us.

And the officer at Passport Control was very friendly and very welcoming.

And then when we went for our turn, he was quite abrupt and, and

cold, and we didn't say anything.

But my daughter, who's only four years old, noticed, and she

asked, she said, mommy, why does he not look happy to see us?

Why did he seem, you know, unhappy?

And, and it could be anything, but you start to tell yourself a narrative,

which is, it's because I'm Muslim and he doesn't want me here, because

that's a narrative that you've heard so often and so frequently.

And so trying to combat this with.

Narratives that kind of nullify that completely is so important.

And I think Bosnia is a really great example of that because, uh, Sarajevo,

the capital of Bosnia is, is also known as the Jerusalem of Europe.

Because for centuries you would be able to hear the sound of church

bales and the sound of the, from the mosque at the same time you'd have

synagogues and churches and mosques all within walking distance of each other.

People lived together harmoniously, they intermarried.

And it was literally the Jerusalem of Europe.

And so this idea that we can't live together, you know, in in a way that's,

uh, helpful to society or beneficial society, is just a complete myth.

And it's something that we kind of have to teach ourselves.

And one of the best ways to do that is through travel.

Because you can't find these stories in a lot of the history books that we

pick up at school or in the libraries.

You just won't find them.

And so the best way that I found to do this is just literally speaking with

local people and having local guides.

And that's one of the reasons why we really emphasize.

Centering the local guide on our tours.

Cause it's really important for us that we are not telling their stories.

They are telling their stories and they are sharing their life experiences

and their oral histories and their perspectives so that you can really

gain access to something that's really unique, something that's not

available online and something that empowers you as a Muslim, for example.

When you hear that in, uh, in Sarava for centuries, uh, it was, it was very

safe and very normal to be close friends with your Orthodox Jewish neighbor

or your, your Catholic neighbor.

And, um, you were able to get along very well.

That's a really important thing to know, especially when you hear

about the war that took place in the 1990s, which was pretty much based on

religious and ethnic, uh, divisions.

And so people don't know these stories.

People know about the war, um, and they know about the motivations

behind the war, but they don't know, well, actually that was.

Something that happened over a short period of time, but for a long time before

that, people lived together really well.

So it's, it's really important to have that balance and I think, um,

working with local guides and, and learning more about the history of each

destination that we're working in has.

Has really helped a lot of our guests to feel like they've come back with a,

a fresher perspective on how they see themselves as Muslims, how they see

the wider Muslim community coming from all sorts of different backgrounds,

different life experiences, different skin colors, different languages, but,

you know, united by faith and shared

Erin Hynes: values.

Mm-hmm.

I really love that you brought up the example of Bosnia because

that I, I've actually talked about it recently on the show.

That's a place that I've traveled to that left such an intense impression

on me that was completely unexpected.

I actually traveled there sort of by accident.

I was headed to another place and my flight got canceled and so I was like,

I'm gonna just fly somewhere random.

And I chose to fly to Sarajevo and I remember flying there and telling my

dad that I was going to Sarajevo and all he said was, oh, like, Are, is

that a destination now, like post-war?

All he knew was the war.

Yes.

And because I think that's a lot of people, especially who were born in the

nineties, like I was born in the nineties.

All I knew about Bosnia was that they had had this horrific war.

But traveling there, obviously you learn a lot about the war,

but I had the same impression.

I spoke with so many people and so much of the history that I learned

was about what happened before that war and about the harmonious way that

people were living in that country.

And it really left like such an impression on me.

I think it's a place that everyone, everyone needs to go to, cuz it I.

Yes.

It really, um, impacted me.

Absolutely.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: I mean, you know, you hit the nail on the head with your dad's

reaction because we get that reaction nearly all the time and guests will tell

us, you know, oh, when I told my colleague at work that I was going to Bosnia,

their first question was, is it safe?

Are you gonna be okay?

But wasn't there a war there recently?

I mean, it's been nearly 30 years Yeah.

Since the water place.

Yeah.

You know, and they've done a really good job of, of

Erin Hynes: rebuilding.

Yeah.

So I actually wanted to talk a bit more about that for

listeners who might not know.

The 1995 BRCA genocide occurred there, in which thousands of Bosnian

Muslim boys and men were killed.

Can you talk about the significance for Muslim travelers when

they visit sites like this?

And how do you navigate, um, bringing visitors to places that might be difficult

emotionally to come to terms with?

Mm-hmm.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: I mean, I'd say kudos to the Muslim community,

community in that a lot of them are already aware of strawberry and.

What took place.

And so sometimes that's often a motivation for why they want to visit Bosnia in

the first place, which is to pay their respects by like praying for the deceased

and just learning more about that story.

But nine times out of 10, I've noticed that they leave with an impression that

perhaps they weren't expecting to get, because, you know, visiting the site

of Bernita is, is really harrowing.

Actually learning about this story is really important.

A because it's a genocide that took place on European soil after we

said we wouldn't, you know, do what we did in World War II over again.

And, and it did take place.

But unfortunately it's, it's not really covered much in curriculums considering

we are living in the UK and Europe.

You would kind of expect that we'd have, uh, at least a little bit more

knowledge on it, but we don't oftentimes.

And so it's a important to learn.

About what happened.

But b I think perhaps more importantly, to learn about how, um,

Bosnians have rebuilt after that.

Because it's very easy to have this kind of, uh, I'd say like

it's very easy to pity people.

But actually when I've been, I've seen actually there's that

Bosnians are very resilient.

Um, they have, they're fighters.

They really are.

I mean, they have worked very hard to rebuild their communities, their

economy, their education systems, despite all of the political challenges

that they're consistently facing.

I mean, Bosnia has three presidents.

I don't think there's any country in the world that has three presidents,

let alone a country of, of that size.

Cause it's not, not a big country.

I'll give you a practical example, which is the Tunnel of Hope.

So we'll take guests to visit Joe Bonita, but then they will also visit

the Tunnel of Hope, which gives you a different aspect of a narrative.

And the Tunnel of Hope essentially is an underground tunnel that

was built and essentially kept the city of Sarajevo alive.

For years, they were underwent the longest siege in modern day history, and they were

able to put supplies, medical supplies, weapons, they were even transported people

goats through this underground tunnel.

And it was through this that they were able to eventually stave off Serbian

aggression and eventually come to some sort of conclusion of the war.

And this was despite the fact that at the very beginning, the Bosnians

didn't actually have an army at all.

And, and in the tunnel of hood you can see that the Army uniform was just

jeans and a t-shirt, jeans and a jumper.

They didn't have training, they didn't have weapons, and they

could have very easily given up.

And in fact, at the time, uh, Serbian Ethnonationalist thought that they

would have sarava within three days.

It was gonna be a walk in the park because Serbia had acquired

one of the most advanced armies at the time, Yugoslav army.

And so they not only had access to tanks and weapons, but they also had

access to the knowledge and knowhow how to, how to successfully run a war.

So, The fact that Bosnians, despite these kind of crazy odds, were able

to, they had a, the willpower to still fight and kind of fight for their own,

uh, survival and their own independence, and then do so in such a way that by

the end of the war they were powerful enough to rebuild their community.

I think it's something inspiring and it shows us that even when you face

incredible challenges, even when you face unspeakable horrors, there is a

light at the end of the tunnel and, and there is a possibility for hope.

And you see that in the bo people and how they're trying really hard to

rebuild and create a, a better future for their children because a lot of

the people that went through this experience, they're still alive and they

remember it and they know it very well.

Yeah.

Like

Erin Hynes: I recall meeting people my age on that trip and chatting

with them and just like, Having this realization about how different their

childhood had been because they were so open with sharing like how they'd

grown up like during the siege in many cases, and their parents were involved.

And I literally have no words for how intense it was to to just meet people

who had had this harrowing childhood.

Like compared to the childhood that I had had growing up here in Canada,

you literally can't go to Sarajevo and not engage with this history

and these experiences that people have had there throughout the war.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: It's, it's a valuable lesson I think that anyone

can learn from, which is yes, there are horrific things that happened,

but there are also wonderful examples of humanity and resilience.

And it's an inspiration that I think all of us can draw upon.

And one of the best ways to do that, of course, is to visit and, and to speak

with the locals and have a local guide and, and learn more about that story so

that when you come back you are not just kind of sharing the stories of, of how.

How the experience was for the locals, but also how they've rebuilt and how

there is so much hope and positivity and productivity coming out of it.

Erin Hynes: I've noticed, like obviously just in this discussion, but

also in looking at your tours, that there's a big emphasis on bridging the

gap between visitors and locals and fostering cross-cultural engagement.

I just wanted to ask like, how are you finding ways to do this

so well with your tour groups?

Soumaya T. Hamdi: Um, so definitely at the heart of it is working very

closely with the local community and getting their input and their

feedback and their guidance.

Then translating that in such a way that it's relatable to our travelers.

So we have primarily, I'd say young Muslim travelers age between 25 to

40, but we get guests from all over.

And I should say as well, we've had non-US travelers come.

I mean, non-users are welcome to come.

That's why we specifically say the trips are designed with Muslims in mind.

But they're not only for Muslims.

We want people to feel welcome and, and to feel like they can also

take part in these experiences.

And I think that's probably one of the reasons why we've been able to kind of

bridge that gap so well, which is that we are trying really hard to be respectful

of, of the local people, but also of the people joining the trips who come

from different backgrounds, different places in their lives, and they, they're

looking for something transformative.

They're looking for something that will enable them to go back

feeling like they've built upon their, uh, personal development

in, in some way or their identity.

Cuz these are not kind of beach holidays, which are fine, you know, but

these aren't beach holidays or package holidays or, or even kind of, uh,

tick off your bucket list type trips.

These are transformative trips where you will hear stories that

might be hard to hear, where you will meet people that have.

Been through all sorts of life experiences, but you will also have

now a friend in Uzbekistan and a friend in Jordan, and a friend in

Bosnia, and someone that you can call on or stay in contact with.

Even after the trip.

And even within the group, you'll, you'll meet people again from different life

experiences, different cha challenges, and by, uh, creating that kind of safe

space within which people are able to explore all of these different things.

It's a wonderful privilege and it's, it's a great, it's an honor to be honest, to

be able to do that and, and, and do it in such a way that it's benefiting the local

people, the local destination, and also benefiting the guests that join our trips.

What message

Erin Hynes: would you like to share with Muslim folks who may

be nervous or overwhelmed with the idea of traveling abroad?

Like what big takeaway would you like them to take away from this discussion?

I

Soumaya T. Hamdi: mean, look, it, it is daunting to travel abroad,

especially if it's your first time or if you've only ever done it

with family or in a certain way.

But I really believe that the benefits of traveling.

Both for you as a person, but for wider society at large outweigh any of these

fears or uncertainties or unknowns.

And you know, the world is a beautiful place.

It's full of incredible landscapes.

It's full of diverse cultures, uh, diverse cuisines and fascinating histories and

stories that are waiting to be told.

And you can't do that if you don't take that leap of faith and try something

that's a little bit different, that's a little bit outside of your comfort zone.

And where we are today in 2023, I'd say for Muslim travelers, we are in a really

great place where you now have access to destinations that are really trying very

hard to welcome you to come and visit.

And you also have companies and, and.

Just, uh, people in general who are trying to make it easier for you to

head out there and explore the world.

So it's a really positive experience.

You'll find that you learn a lot about yourself, and you may even

find that people are curious about your faith and, and your culture,

and they're eager to learn more.

I mean, I remember when I went to South Korea, I landed in Inchon Airport.

Um, my first thought was, why on earth am I here?

I have just flown more than like 16 or 17 hours.

It was an indirect flight.

I was completely tired and at the airport, which I thought would at least

be a little bit kind of multicultural.

All I could see was like the Sea of Koreans around me, and I just

thought, I stick out like a sore thumb.

Why am I here?

But actually, throughout the three weeks that I was in Korea, I had such

a positive experience with local people who, uh, would ask me questions about

why I'm dressed this way, but in such a way that I didn't feel disrespected.

I felt that they were genuinely interested and they wanted to know more.

And they were very polite and very eager to learn more about.

What it means to be a Muslim.

And so it can be a great starting point, to be honest.

Sometimes it can be a great icebreaker.

It can be a great way to realize actually the world is not as scary

as it can seem online or in the news or in the headlines that you see.

And it's, it's so worth exploring for your mental health, for your physical

health, but also for your spiritual health

Erin Hynes: as well.

Mm-hmm.

And I think you've tapped into something that is, is something I've always loved

about travel, which is that you can create such important cross-cultural

connections through travel and learn so much about other people and how other

people live and how other people identify.

And that's something I've also really enjoyed about traveling.

Okay, so final question.

We're going to ask about some tips for London.

I'm traveling to London shortly actually, so I'm very excited for this.

Favorite restaurants favorite things to do?

What insider tips do you have to share?

Ooh.

Okay.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: So I would say, I mean, uh, east London

actually is changing a lot.

It's become like a kind of snazzy cool place to be where

all the hip cafes are popping up.

So if East London is not on your list of places to explore, I would say

definitely spend at least half a day just kind of wandering around the streets

and you'll, you'll, you'll come across the most random and interesting cafes.

I'd say my top tip is I think London, in the UK in general is

very famous for, for afternoon tea.

Yeah.

And a lot of people come to try afternoon tea.

And actually I have a friend from Croatia who came and tried out recently

and she was bitterly disappointed.

She was like, it's just sandwiches and cake.

And so I was like, yeah, like it's, that's afternoon tea.

So I would say there is a way to have the, the quintessential British

experience without having to pay the cost of the afternoon tea or having

to go through all those sandwiches.

Cause you know, they're not for everyone.

Um, which is to have a cream tea instead.

And one of the nicest places you can have a cream tea in London is in Sketch.

They have fabulous bathrooms.

That's one of the first photos that will show up if you visit Sketch.

They have these like pod bathrooms, but they, you know, it's a nice place to, to

have afternoon to have cream tea, sorry.

Which is, is basically tea with scones and jam and cream.

Oh.

Without the sandwiches.

It's very enjoyable.

And in sketch they have.

Multiple rooms and each room is designed based on a theme and so

it's really cool place to visit.

So I would definitely recommend taking it

Erin Hynes: out.

Okay.

I'm looking this up right now because that is one of the things I wanted to do.

I'm visiting a friend and he actually lives in East London, so I'll

definitely be exploring that area.

I also need to eat a crumpet because my cat is named Rumfitt

and I've never had one in my life, so I was like, this is my chance.

I'm going to the uk.

They will have crumpets.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: You can get crumpets at most supermarkets,

get some nice butter with it.

I'd say get maybe carry gold or anchor.

They have some of the best, get salted version, a salted block of butter.

Load it on there and it'll taste really good.

Beautiful.

Erin Hynes: And thank you so much for joining us.

I guess I should ask you, where can people find you if they want to look

at your tours or learn more about you?

Yeah.

Soumaya T. Hamdi: Where on social media?

Pretty much every social media platform you can think of.

Um, if you wanna go on our website, it's.

Simple.

It's halal travel guide.net.

Um, you can get in touch there, or you can drop us a message on Instagram,

which is Halal travel guide, and we'll be very happy to have a chat with you.

Erin Hynes: Thank you for listening to the show.

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Ipac My Bags is written and hosted by me, Erin Hinz, and it's produced and edited

by Katie Lore in Canada's Toronto area.

Our theme music is Night Stars by Wolf Saga, David R Miracle,

and the Chippewa Travelers.

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All right, pals.

We'll be back in two weeks with another episode that unpacks how we

can travel in a way that is better for people and for the planet.