Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the skil framework.

Ian Evans: I think the other element that's important from a

business perspective, as we know, most businesses want to

run hybrid workloads. The frustrating part for most of the

businesses is they didn't feel there was a really good standard

to essentially control all these devices in the data centers.

Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

Evelyn Erlich, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute.

Some of you might remember what a SIS admin does, and others

might not. I do and I remember the hard work when I was in that

role. I was part of a giant data center consolidation many years

ago, and I was a sysadmin in the year y2k Or year 2000. Okay, I

know that dates me, but I don't really care. However, when I

hear people saying that the data center is dead, I have a very

strong reaction because it's not true. That is why I've invited

two thought leaders and founders who have architects and design

the solution, which focuses on the work in the data center. And

today, as I said, we have two leaders which have created a

very interesting solution called mattify, or a company called

mattify. We'll talk about the solution in a little bit. Let me

introduce the two gentlemen. So first one, Michael Wagner, is a

co founder and CEO of mattify. He began his career in 1995 as a

network engineer, when he joined IBM while still attending the

University of Wisconsin Madison. He worked in several senior

management positions at IBM in Boston and San Diego. Before

joining Red Hat in 2010. Michael was head of Channel Sales and

alliances for North America at Red Hat. He was one of the

creators of Red Hat hats, epics partner program for system

integrators, implementing OpenShift Kubernetes solutions

in his final role before launching mattify. The second

person is Ian Evans. He is co founder and CTO of mattify. He

began his career in 1999. As the director of IT for Quintus

resorts. He got his first taste of working in software startup

when he next joined was Zabi systems. As Director of Product

Management at wasabi, Ian was deeply involved in all aspects

of product development and strategy. In Sprott expertise in

cutting edge infrastructure technology led him to multiple

senior architect positions with some of the top technology

companies on the planet including AWS, Verizon, Lockheed

Martin, and Red Hat. Ian's final role before launching mattify

was principal architect for the global open solutions practice

of WW Ts, and welcome to Our Podcast management. My wonderful

gentleman. Thank you. I call this podcast a glimpse into two

co founders journey for the data center a sounds a little bit

like Star Trek. I am a Star Trek fan. So hopefully don't you

don't mind. It is great to have you to with us today. And I'm

excited for our audience to listen in. So we before we talk

about mattify Ian, can you share with me how you two have decided

to become co founders and create mattify? Where if you met give

us the story?

Ian Evans: Sure. Yeah. So we, I've known Mike for about a

little over four years. And the idea of what we generally

started working on a bunch of different technologies around

the data center. And you know, in our respective roles, we

really saw a lot of limitations around getting the product out

to market and doing it in a way that was kind of free of

obstacles. So of course that started the the discussion

around starting our own company, and starting to figure out how

we start to tackle the issues in the data center, but build the

product to basically facilitate what we feel need to be done as

quickly as possible. So we got our start working on all those

different technologies. You brought it all into a single

product plan. And then we started to make some

determinations on what areas of that data center we're going to

tackle first. And that really led to the creation of mattify.

And the wonderful product that we have called Mojo.

Eveline Oehrlich: So medified name and does it stand for

something? It does.

Mike Wagner: Yeah, so mattify it's a portmanteau combination

of two words so metal and simplified. So we put the first

couple letters of metal last couple of letters that simplify,

and you get

Eveline Oehrlich: mattify. Great love that. I bet that was a

variety of cycles of thinking, which ideation around the name.

That's fantastic. So, Michael, what does mattify do? What is

and what is so unique about mattify?

Mike Wagner: Yeah, so we went against the grain, we saw a need

in private cloud and data center space, in particular. And as the

sort of definition of what a data center is, was quickly

evolving, you know, the needs of system administrators, the needs

of folks that are in infrastructure and operations,

don't go away. And as that great little meme that was floating

around and still is, you know, what is the cloud, it's just

somebody else's computer. And that's, that's the reality of

it, you know. So for us, we recognize that the hyper scalars

have done a great job of automating their infrastructure.

And they did such a great job that, you know, companies all

around the world decided, well, let's just get rid of this

problem, when we're starting off. While the data centers in

most of the Fortune 1000, companies really didn't change

all that much. If you look at historical spend, data center,

data centers have grown, as far as server spend, and as well as

total megawatts, even in the private data centers have grown

consistently, every year. And that hasn't changed. Now, cloud

and hyper scalars have grown much faster. But the fact that

the data centers are still out there is a testament to the fact

that you know, fortune 1000 companies, companies that reach

a certain size, the economies of having their own hardware makes

sense. So it's that kind of question about do I rent? Or do

I buy? And at some point, it certainly makes sense to buy. So

yeah, so what we did was we wanted to make that incredibly

simple. We wanted to create it so that you know, the hard work

that say Googles and Amazons have done to make public cloud,

incredibly consumable, super easy to spin up a server, and

get the exact hardware profile that you want. We wanted to make

that as easy as possible for private organizations to do

behind their firewall. And also, you know, there was a big switch

going on, that really was the impetus for launching things in

where we got our first use case was right on the edge. So of

course, the development of 5g and the need to move, compute

and storage closer to the customer themselves, really led

to us, you know, creating a couple of different use cases

for our product. And I think that's helped to drive growth

overall. So bottom line is we just wanted to make accessing

the hardware, discovering it, provisioning it, and maintaining

it, as simple as possible treat it as a first class citizen, if

you will, all the investment had really gone AppStack, you know,

into applications and application frameworks and

DevOps, you know, and in general, like OpenShift, and

Kubernetes, and Docker. That's where all the interest was. But

the fact that, you know, everyone was still toiling down

at the server level, and at the chip level, to get these things

to talk and get them organized that way they need to with the

right access, and governance, compliance, all those things

still existed. It's just somebody else's computer and

call it a cloud. But at the end of the day, it's a bunch of

servers.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, I understand when you said that

you went exactly the opposite to where everybody else's has been

going. And particularly during the pandemic, people were

thinking, Oh, we got to move to the cloud. And they took those

two years or whatever how many months it has, and they did it.

But there's still a whole bunch of and I wish we could quantify

it. How much is still out there. I'm sure Gartner has some data,

in terms of how many data centers are still out there.

Alright, great. So where are you going with the vision for

mattify? What is what's the short term? And are whatever

short term means short term to me mean sometimes a day? But I

don't mean tomorrow, but you know, in six months from now, in

a year from now, what's your vision forward?

Mike Wagner: Yeah, so we have an established channel program. So

that's a big part of what we do. We've got incredible business

partners that we work with. But from a vision perspective, it's

really taking the product to a broader audience. We currently

our installation process is something that we're working on

right now, because we want to make it push button, you know,

immediately deployable from our site. So that's a big step for

us. But overall, it's just a matter of, you know, continuing

to do what we're doing and make more customers aware of it. The

footprint that we have right now really covers most sectors. So

we've had a great opportunity to work with folks in financial

services as well as media and entertainment, banking,

insurance, you name it, we've kind of had Uh, we're working

with those customers. So that's a, that's a great thing. So you

know, from an execution perspective, we want to make

sure that we're doing the things that we want it to do really

well, which is the discovery, provisioning and maintaining of

servers themselves. And then expanding that out as we grow

into really all of the edge use cases and IoT sensors. And the

best part about where we're headed is, it's defined already,

for us, essentially, we leverage open standards. And so the open

source communities, and the open standards, communities that made

our product possible, are really defining directionally where we

go. And from a r&d perspective, that's something I learned from

Red Hat, there's really no beating the open source research

and development model, there's no beating the open source

software development model, because your r&d is essentially

handled for you by the community, you know, and as the

community demands something, it gets rolled into the open

standard. And then we make it almost instantly accessible

inside of our product after we test it and make sure that it

works across different hardware profiles. So that's, that's one

of the great benefits of having a redhead background is that

it's, it showed me the power of open source, and the power of

open communities overall, to really help drive product change

and making sure that you're not heading down technical rabbit

holes that aren't gonna lead anything, you know, these are

all community driven. And so whenever you're taking your

marching orders from people demanding features, you know

that there's going to be an audience for it.

Eveline Oehrlich: They're a different culture than it was

when I started out in it, which was 90, in the 90s. I'm glad

we're here. And that's very beautiful. I keep telling my

daughters, hey, you should go into it. But maybe I had too

many ITIL books on my nightstand, and they didn't want

to do that. So there are different topics today, but so

very successful young ladies. So culture is everything. It says

on your whiteboard, Michael, in your office, little word was

telling me that. What, how does that translate in your day to

day because for us, the DevOps Institute, you know, it's just

human angle. We forget, there's a lot of talk about tech, and

all these different things. But the culture and how we work and

how people come together is essential. Otherwise, we'll

basically are machines. So tell me a little bit about how this

culture is everything translates at your day to day mattify? With

your coat with your customers, your clients and everything

else?

Mike Wagner: Yeah, so that's great. Yeah. So from a culture

perspective, we really lead with three core elements, if you

will. And I think, you know, culture evolves over time in an

organization. But as a software startup we came from large is

large enterprises in the past, and we saw a few things that we

thought, okay, if we launched our own, we know exactly what

we'd want. So that was another very cool thing of doing a

startup is you get to kind of build it to your dream, right?

And eat and I, our cultural wants, in terms of what a

company should be, we're just perfectly aligned. So

essentially, it's number one is kindness. So no egos no

pretense, no bad attitudes, right. If you're not having fun,

I always have the saying, if you're not enjoying it, you're

probably in the wrong job. And, you know, you should consider

other options, right? We enjoy a greatly coding and we love what

we're doing, we, you know, the hardware in general. And that

intersection of where hardware and software meet is just a

really cool space to be. So kindness is number one,

transparency is number two, and transparency, because that

enables trust, right, and without trust, you don't have

much, especially in a small organization. And you can boil

that down to individual teams if you're in a larger organization.

But for us the transparency, you know, we've got a small group of

folks here trying to make this dream happen. And that have made

the product an award winning product now, and you know, some

some amazing customers. So it really has to be there, from the

very beginning. And throughout the build process. So you know,

essentially being able to see what they've done, you know,

let's take a look at your code for today. Right? How did things

go? Always checking in So transparency is number two, and

number three would be consistency. And that's really,

you can view that as essentially a self discipline, right, and

the will to collectively work hard towards a common goal. And,

you know, the excitement around In our product Mojo platform,

and you know, the fact that we have some really cool customers,

and that we're working with some, some, some of the largest

global players in their respective spaces right now is

really exciting. So I think it's much easier to kind of create

the collective vision now that the product is built, and

everyone sees the potential around it. And so it's, those

are the three main ones, though kindness, transparency, and

consistency. And as long as you have those things in place, you

know, you can kind of take on the world.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I'm sure you get to read that culture is

everything when you visit Microsoft Office, anything you

want to add to that,

Ian Evans: I think might hit all the the major ones for us. I

mean, I agree with them. You Humility is a big one for me.

You know, I think that that goes a very long ways. And I think if

you get the right people in place, and they enjoy their

jobs, like he'd said, they're doing great work, you know, the,

the, the ability to manage becomes a lot easier, you know,

you don't have to engage in a lot of micromanagement and stuff

like that. So it's all about, you know, just the attitude,

this the selection of the person in the role and allowing them to

kind of spread their wings, you know, I'm allowing them to take

all the cumulative skills that they've gathered over the years

and feel that strong spirit of innovation, and push it forward

into in the product. And I think when you do that, you get the

best elements of everything, from a company perspective, a

product perspective, market readiness, all of all of those

things come together into a great package. So yeah, I

definitely agree with everything he mentioned with maybe those

those, those couple extra things from from a company management

and cultural perspective and all those things.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Great. That makes me think of one of my

former colleagues at Forrester used to say actually two of them

to steal some research, excellent research, they're at

Forrester Research. He used to say, happy employees, happy

customers. And that goes for all kinds of products, right? So if

we have happiness and enjoyment, then that translates into happy

customers, because we enjoy what we're doing. And this is in your

case, and in anybody else's case, even flying, or driving or

ordering or anything like that. So great. Okay. Yeah. And

Ian Evans: I want to add one quick thing, and that is, you

mentioned happy customers peace. And that, that that is one of

the biggest things for us is that we, we felt that the

products being introduced to the market were way too complex. And

you know, and that obviously leads into positive customer

experience, you know, we want it to be as seamless and easy to

use as possible. And that to us translates to happy customers.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yep. Ah, that makes me think of something

else. I wanted to ask you community outreach, you guys

have done something around, making sure that there is basic

access to internet and things in rural areas called something

called photon Connect. Is that correct? Can one of you

elaborate on what that is? Because I think that is

beautiful when I heard about that.

Mike Wagner: Yeah. So a few years ago, when COVID hit, Ian

lives in the, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. And

that might be one of the most challenging places to get

broadband signals into that I've ever seen personally, I'm in

Madison, Wisconsin, and comparatively, you know, it's

farm pastures out here. It's pretty simple. But we still have

a lot of rural broadband challenges as well. It's

surprising when you discovered just how, how widespread the

problem is across North America still. But when COVID hit there

was some teachers in particular that were having trouble

connecting and being able to have their classes you know,

delivered in a way that was actually usable for the kids. So

we identified a few of those teachers and reached out to the

school board and we're able to get them hooked up at no charge

to an Ian actually developed an amazing product that we've gone

on to work with commercially and have some some really cool

customers that we're working with on the come martial side

now, commercial enterprise side. And yeah, it's a it's called

photon router. And it's a it's a highly tuned customer premise

piece of equipment that takes care of all of the streaming

difficulties that you would discover it most people face

with much even higher bandwidth coming into the home. So yeah,

that was that was the key, we established our own ISP, and

essentially got these teachers online, so they could teach the

classes with some degree of performance and actually be able

to interact with the kids and use the the Zoom classes, and

the features that that the the school board was using. The

district was using to try and enable the remote learning that

was in place during COVID.

Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful, very noble, great, great idea.

All right, cloud repatriation, we've seen it we're hearing it

to to, you know, some fin ops or cost observability organizations

are repatriating out of the cloud. Not all not everything.

But we've, we've seen it in DevOps Institute and talked to

all ambassadors and they see it as well. So in what are some use

cases, you've seen what Cloud repatriation makes sense? And,

and I like you, too, I know you are. I'm gonna call you a nerd.

But I mean it as a compliment, not as derogative at

Ian Evans: all. That's okay. I get called that a lot.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, Miko calls you on the road all the

time. Okay. But instead of looking at it from the technical

perspective, I'd like to like you to focus a little bit on the

business value perspective, in terms of cloud repatriation,

what are some use cases you've seen?

Ian Evans: So I think the dynamics have changed a bit. You

know, one of the things that I've noticed immediately is,

you're starting to see miniaturization in terms of

hardware footprint, right? So things that when notoriously

kind of take, you know, three rows, or more, you know, for

large workloads, as an example, those are things that you're

consolidating down into one or two racks, or even less now,

because of the core counts and the efficiencies that are

brought forth with new server technologies. So, you know, when

it comes to a real estate perspective, looking at it from

a spanned, it becomes a much easier scenario for a lot of

companies, because they can look at that as footprint reduction,

less building size, less cooling infrastructure, so forth, all

these translate into lower costs. So what was a major

obstacle before in that regard is is now been, you know,

largely fixed with the efficiencies and the

consolidation of hardware. So that's one major driver there.

And it makes it possible for people to put very powerful

workloads into smaller spaces, so they don't need huge data

centers to do that. I think the other element that's important

from a business perspective is we know most businesses want to

run hybrid workloads. The frustrating part for most of the

businesses is they didn't feel there was really a really good

standard to essentially control all these devices in the data

center. So the MTF redfish standard is a great example of

an improvement in that area, and that it basically creates a set

of extensible schemas and purposes, it reaches into

servers and storage and other elements in the data center. And

really, the overall goal is to bring things into a standard

unified API that's easy to understand, easy to consume. And

above all else, is accessible through a multitude of different

OEMs. So customer puts in a command to power on a server,

that would be the same command across a Dell HP super micro

platform, and so forth. That's the overall goal. So with those

pieces coming in, from a business perspective, the

elements of automation are more achievable, as long as you have

a toolset that accommodates that. And that's really where

Mojo came in is we wanted to build that platform to use that

standard. So people can orchestrate automate hardware in

an in a very agnostic way. So that those those drivers really

help out quite a bit. And I think also there's kind of the

shock with Cloud spend as well, and it's relatively hard to

control. And you know, a lot of customers, they put workloads in

there and they have certain expectations and some of those

costs been out of control. And next thing, you know, you're

locked into specific technologies, maybe this public

cloud provider has and the spends very high so customers

are looking at ways with the things I mentioned earlier,

using those things, bringing it all together and bringing

workloads back into you know, kind of like a smaller on prem

type of footprint.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, makes sense. scuze me, I am doing some

research or we at the DevOps Institute have done five years

of research now on it upskilling or we call it upskilling at

2023. We just have a report public session we share a lot of

the findings there the top two domain skills or capabilities,

which are must have a process skills, you know, be it ITIL it

for it DevOps, agile scrum, you know, name them, and technical

skills. Those are the two top most important skill domains.

When we think about this topic of moving workloads, and or data

back to on premise on the skills in a data center, that's one

thing, I think that's one challenge, I can see already.

When we everybody wants to have clouds skills, and has cloud

skills and container skills and all of that wonderful stuff. The

second one political considerations if I'm the CTO,

and I decided two years ago, five years ago, we're gonna go

all cloud. And I'm still around. And now I have to say, I'm

sorry, but I think we need to move certain things back. That

could be carried over. Maybe. Those are just two aspects of

cloud repatriation conversations I've had with clients and and

others, Michael, to you. Have you had conversations with your

clients on Cloud repatriation, and hearing other things? And if

not other, maybe comment on skills versus cost and political

savviness?

Mike Wagner: Yeah, okay. So, couple good threads there. So

I'll start with the discussion around skills. And that was

really one of the core reasons why we developed the product.

You know, we saw Ian saw a need, and we've both had the

opportunity to go to data centers of some of the top

companies globally, and you see the way they're running things.

And you recognize that there's a few people that really hold the

keys to the castle. And they're from a hardware perspective,

which is, that's an exposure. And then being able to knowledge

transfer, how things are done internally is also a very

difficult thing. So we wanted to create really a first class

citizen, if you will, a first class application that makes

that intersection of people and hardware as simple as possible.

And that's where Mojo platform really came in. And Ian has a

navy background he worked in with some Navy contractors and

the KISS principle that keep it simple, stupid principle around,

alright, what can we do to build a tool that's just very easy to

use very intuitive, and handles all of this sort of manually

heavy, and very error prone activity that's often left to

individuals. And in particular, we're talking BIOS upgrades,

firmware upgrades, remote provisioning of operating

systems, remote booting of operating systems wiping of hard

drives. So you know, this, this low level, ability to do what

you need to do from a server maintenance perspective, just

was a glaring problem and having lived through it, you know, he

just wanted to create sort of the dream tool, if you will. So

handling that skills gap, and being able to allow companies to

take those resources and repurpose them into more

valuable roles, is, was an important consideration for us.

And one of the core reasons we built motion platform. So you

know, we want to make it so that anybody can come in with minimal

training on that tool, and be able to build private clouds

build, you know, the the pools that are necessary, provide the

infrastructure controls, the governance, the are back, all

the things that are required to have a well maintained

infrastructure that provides what your developers need, at

with just a few clicks. And that, that we've managed to do.

So we're excited about having sort of that phase one of the

project if you will, phase one of our, our software proven and,

and really loved by our customers. And the next piece of

it, the use cases, or the use cases really came to us again,

because you know, open standards. We have Major League

Baseball is a big customer of ours. And as an example, you

know, they're a hybrid company. They have stadiums all over

North America, and data centers, you know, the overall definition

of even what a data center is, is just stretching and changing

as we speak. And that's, you know, as we get closer to the

edge and as the demands of what compute and storage need to do,

because the optimization of the architecture itself requires it.

We just wherever the workload needs to be, we're fine with it.

So Cloud repatriation, yes. It's happening also from just a

application perspective, or they're like, well, we we did a

lift and shift because we wanted to get rid of the optics of

having a data center and the people right, and then they

recognize holy moly, there is or I should say the cap

expenditure. And there's an incredible operating expenditure

in the cloud. And there's definitely a break even point of

when you recognize that, with the miniaturization and advances

in technology and advances in chip power and the shrinking of

storage, you can do all those things in house for a lot

cheaper. And there's, you know, myriad cases where you can look

those up online and just see all of the money that's being saved

across the board. And we ourselves, have done some really

cool work in that regard as well. So the stuff that Major

League Baseball is doing is a hybrid cloud, we partnered with

Google on it. And it's just incredible to see all that's

enabled at the edge sitting on top of Mojo's provisioned

servers, and then it bursts up into GCP 7.2 terabytes of data

per game. And they've just got an amazing amount of really cool

data that's pulled in there for all of their fans to interact

with. And see in real time, you know, how far Aaron judges home

run went when he hit his 62nd. One, you know, so it's just

amazing all the things they can track even the speed of the ball

as it spins off the pitchers hand and, you know, more data

than you can imagine, gets loaded up and, and used by fans

every game. So yeah, it's the it's the use cases themselves

that have really brought this sometimes cloud repatriation,

sometimes just natural, new build, you know, Greenfield

space where we have to change the way the solution is

architected, to really get the option, the optimal footprint to

deliver the best experience possible to our customers.

Ian Evans: Yeah, wait, I was gonna add in quick thing on

that, you know, we also understand that, in order to

have a successful product that works well in, in a hybrid

setting, or, you know, in a private data center type of

setting to automate different hardware, you really need to

make sure that people that are coming from the public cloud,

find the tool relatively familiar, you know, so from a

DevOps perspective, you know, we wanted to make sure that we

weren't introducing something that seemed foreign or you know,

monolithic, it's kind of that like, fine balance, you know, we

want to make sure that we keep it very simple. We also want to

make sure that it's also familiar, and, you know, if, if

a DevOps person is working on our system, and they prefer to

use Ansible, they can use Ansible, they want to use

TerraForm, they can certainly use TerraForm. So we want to

keep it very open in that respect, as well, you know,

bring your own tools, bring your own servers, you know, flexible

platform, you know, very much common in terms of things that

they would see, within the public cloud, a lot of the terms

are the same. So we really worked hard to make sure that

the tool is recognizable to people that are coming from

those environments, but also, you know, very, very much usable

when they're using both of those environments at the same time.

Eveline Oehrlich: Great points. Excellent learning. Super. All

right. Last question. And this has nothing to do with any of

what we've talked about. Well, maybe I'll leave it up to you,

gentlemen. What do you guys do for fun?

Mike Wagner: Oh, boy. So I guess I'll go first. I love music. I

mean, I jokingly, Ian and I always joke around that this is

all just a front for us to be able to put our album out once

our company goes public. So but we'll see. Right. So I've been

playing bass for many years. And so that's that's something a big

hobby of mine, for sure. I also play chess. And I have five

kids. So that Oh, really busy. Yeah.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yes. Excellent. And you Ian.

Ian Evans: Yeah. So we might have some similarities in terms

of things we like to do for fun. I mean, music is a big thing for

me. I've done it for a long time I play bass, I play guitar. So I

enjoy that. I also just really enjoy working within the

community. So a lot of my time my free time is spent on you

know, things we talked like photon connects Community

Improvement Project, I want to see how I can improve outcomes

for people in the community. And I'm always looking for

challenges, you know, things that have been challenges for a

very long period of time. Nobody's addressed those. I love

those types of things. So when I see them, I tried to address

them. And if my background in what I've done in my background

can help push those things forward within the community.

That's one thing I spend a lot of time for on and then the

other ones are animal welfare. I'm very much involved in the

community when it comes to wildlife and sustaining that and

ensuring that you know, there's some involvement in the

communities involved in sustaining the natural wildlife

ecosystem here as well.

Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. Gentlemen, this has been

Fantastic. You guys have enriched my life significantly

today. And I hope you've enjoyed this conversation as well. Thank

you again, for all of the learning and the sharing. And

your last part they are on what you do for fun.

Ian Evans: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Eveline Oehrlich: We've been talking to Michael Wagner, co

founder and CEO of benify. And Ian Evans, co founder and CTO of

mattify. Gentlemen, again, thank you very much for your time

joining me today on humans of DevOps podcast and have a great

mattify journey, I'll say.

Mike Wagner: Thanks very much.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, humans of DevOps podcast is produced by

DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia

pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and Brandon Lee. Shout out to those

colleagues of mine do a wonderful job also at their day,

and recording and making sure things are well. I'm humans of

DevOps podcast executive producer Evelyn earlyish. If you

would like to join us on the podcast, please contact us at

humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com. I'm

abolutely. Talk to you soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of

DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get

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