Tom Gerken 0:00 Hello, welcome to our dads died with Tom gherkin. And Rich Spalding.

Rich 0:08 This is a fun way of doing it from now on, I think.

Tom Gerken 0:10 Yeah, it's good. I like it. This week's episode is all about care homes.

Rich 0:16 Yes care homes, care homes, care homes, the place you go to die is one way of describing them.

We interviewed the fantastic Pope Lonnegan, who is a comedian and some time care worker who has written a an incredible book, which we'll discuss a little bit more in the interview and later called our die after bingo. And we talked to him about his experiences working in care homes, particularly during the COVID pandemic, which is when this was recorded. Pope is a he's an incredible character. He is one of the most unique people I've ever met, and I love him. He's great on this, I think you'll really enjoy it. Awesome.

Tom Gerken 1:12 This episode more than any other really, I feel a duty to remind the listener that we are talking to somebody who's going to tell us some awful stuff. He's talking about the reality of life and death. Inside a care home. This means the bits you don't normally hear. And some people might find that hard to listen to, including us, as we frequently laugh when he says things that nobody should ever laugh at, laugh at. But I just wanted to say that that's not really to be disrespectful. It's just, it's really just our way of coping with with terrible things

Rich 1:45 that have a trigger warning, Pope just discuss suicide during the interview with him. And I say POTUS because we also discuss it, because that's how the discussion works. But if, if that's a trigger for you, that's something you don't want to hear, then skip forward to the outro, which is at.

Tom Gerken 2:03 So with that in mind, take it away. I started to get it mixed up.

Rich 2:15 So how, how long have you been working in care?

Pope 2:19 So I've been working in Kenya a decade now about 999 year back nine and a half years, I think it was always in the same care home is the same environment. But then I went full time in comedy at the beginning of 2019. Kind of a bad time. So soon, not soon after that, I'll back up to care. Yeah, and so yeah, that I went down when I went back to care, it's a different care home and it wasn't elderly care anymore. It was like a mixture of like, adults with dependent like adults who have like learning difficulties or, you know, sort of lots of different things. Whereas, yeah, for the bulk of my career as a, as a carer, I worked in the same the same care home,

Unknown Speaker 3:09 sort of like end of life care is that

Pope 3:13 it's not so palatable.

Yeah, so palliative care is a little bit I did work in palliative care, but we did have end of life care within the care home, but it wasn't like, you know, eventually they've got a fucking like, if they die eventually the kind of

Rich 3:34 the care home motto, isn't it? They've got to die eventually.

Pope 3:39 Sooner rather than later, please.

We've decided so yeah, they would have end of life care. But it would mean it was long term residential care. That's how we described it. Yeah. Because they were, they were usually in there for quite, you know, quite a long time. I mean, I'd say there's sort of the main kind of time period, we'd be about three to four years. But then there was a lady I cared for that was really close to get for her for nine years. She was in the care home for 15 years. And sadly, she and she died. I've really, really close to her. And she died a little walk just just before kind of the first lockdown. And I hadn't seen her for quite you know, I hadn't seen her for quite a long time because I'd quit my job there. And I sort of visited intermittently but I hadn't I hadn't seen it that much. I apparently she was kind of calling out my name right till the end. She's you know, she's still fought. I work there. Yeah, fucking that one hit me hard. That was like heartbreaking. I couldn't go I couldn't go to a funeral either because of lockdown. And yeah, that's I mean, you've you kind of love them all in their own ways, but just like we've any interpersonal relationships are some that you, you know, you become very deeply involved with, they become like an extension of your family, you become very enmeshed in their lives. But and then there's some that you're kind of like third cousins are saying you tolerate them. Not really not really for you like not not your climate people get on your nerves, but they you loved him or the he she was one that was in there for a long, long time I cared about a lot, so

Rich 5:30 and when, when you're when you're very close to somebody like that, but it's still it's your job is professional setting. But it's a very personal loss at the same time. How does that? How does that work, when you're sort of part of your job is dealing with the death of someone that essentially let you say, his family to you?

Pope 5:49 So yeah, it's really hard, this is something I've kind of brought up quite a lot, and I would bring it up a lot. And the job is that you don't get any kind of does not have my place anyway. You don't get any kind of grief counselling. And there's no because it's, you know, private equity. It's run by private companies, and they're all They're always worried about kind of just like profiteering or whatever. The moment someone dies, and they kind of, you know, they, they, they evacuate that room, they evacuate this world, and then they just bang another person in, and you don't get time to, there's no like, period of like respite, where you get time to kind of grieve that person or to have that, you know, that, that that period of? Yeah, yeah, that kind of that low in between the two things to, to to, you know, to grieve basically, you don't really get an opportunity to create grief. That's,

Speaker 1 6:51 it's really interesting what you're saying, because when my dad died, when my dad died, it was about I took a couple of weeks off work, but even even then, I felt I was sort of rushing myself slash being rushed back to work because it was the UK General Election at the time, and I had a bit of a role in it. So I kind of had to get back in there. And I felt like after reflected on it, I didn't take long enough out out of work to grieve that loss. And yet, you're saying, you know, you've got to know someone really closely. You saw them off very often. And, and then what I mean, you presumably you can't even really take time off of work for that at all, then you

Pope 7:32 know, no guideline, it's, it really is part of the job, like you become you become you become kind of very, it kind of desensitised to it and a bit a bit kind of a bit jaded by about a lot of these things that you kind of witnessed within the care home like, and some of it I think it's, it's, it's good because it allows you to develop a certain amount of tolerance sight stuff like but like the kind of body horror like grotesque, like medical grotesque, like medical stuff, that would usually people would find quite squeamish and off putting. AND, OR, and then when they find that kind of stuff, quite squeamish and off putting, they tend to look away when they tend to look away that leads to the like neglect and deprivation. Whereas, as Kara has been able to confront that head on, and sort of recognise the universality of, of these, like biological degradation and the very corporeal parts of ageing, that there's a benefit to that, but it is hard when Yeah, when it's when it's kind of when it's def you're dealing with and there's not really any there's not any really a period for kind of reflection. There's not really it is just one out one in it's and then as I said, Yeah, we never got any kind of grew grief counselling or and you know, I've seen so many people dead as well that's the thing like die. I've seen people die in front of my very eyes. One lady died holding my hand. And that actually ended up turning up into a it was I could I'll get onto that. Like they ended up turning into a bit of a Weekend at Bernie's. Okay, okay, I'll do that clearly. Right. So this lady she, she, she, she sadly died holding her hand. She's looking a little bit rough in the morning. So I was monitoring, keeping an eye on her but like she was on death's door. Anyway, she was just a little bit quiet a bit reserved. And I was in the lounge and I just had a moment to there's never really any moment to just kind of sit and be with the residents. So you have to kind of carve out that time yourself. And I just kind of sat with her and was holding her hand in a lounge and to my right there was like a little girl about eight years old, a visiting family member and she was kind of chatting away and I was talking to her and then like kind of looked at this poor lady and realised She's literally dead. Like I realised she died, I sort of was, you know, like, checking on her and so I could press the emergency buzzer is supposed to like the way other people, the carers and stuff rushed in. And there's this little girl right here and we will talk and go like, we don't know what kind of like exposure, this little girl was had to death. We don't want to corrupt her innocence, you know. So we've got these two really two responsibilities that we're kind of trying to balance and and so yeah, but also like we needed to remove this lady from the lounge where there is other people about you know, as just as a health and safety and also to kind of preserve our dignity we don't want to just kind of sitting in there's got to be the the Undertaker and stuff come in and the doctors now. So yeah, we had to end up like getting getting her into a wheelchair and light sort of signs. The little girl little girl has gotten worse. What's wrong with her wife? What's wrong with her? What's happening with that she's so tired. Oh my god, she is she's so tired. She's in a very, very, very, very deep sleep. Why? No, she's fine. She's just so tired, she's tired. And we end up getting her out and kind of like kind of like, and not like, you know, kind of prying or open.

Like, like, she'd sort of stiffened up. Right? Like she's like getting on the bed like she had flat pack furniture.

Which I should do I apologise to the audience. I know that's gonna sound very alienating to people, but it is the sign it for comic effect. But we did do it in the most respectful way possible. I'm a very religious person. So I believe in like the sanctity of death and stuff like that. So yeah, yeah, I mean, we we've got on the bed and did and then do the usual stuff we have to do, which is, you obviously when you die, everything inside you has to come out. And so we have to kind of clean clean the residents up and kind of prepare the dead. And yeah, do what we can so that we can preserve that dignity.

Rich 12:20 So when you see everything inside you have to come out. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Expanding,

Pope 12:26 but so but bodily fluids. So bodily fluids. So they is. I mean, I always think that people realise this in the same way that like, you know, when someone's giving birth, they can shake themselves but then it's surprising the amount of times people go oh, I I had no idea. So yeah, they kind of went some passes away now evacuate their bowels. They'll soiled themselves. And we have to clean them up. Get them changed, but it's very weird is like, like just the when you're like, Yeah, I the thing is I still like even when I'm doing the usual moving and handling. Even though I know they're deceased. I still talk them through it as if I would a resident who's alive lock arms you know, just so they're not so they've not confused or they don't feel violated or whatever or even though like they we've made they would I've looked after him so much that there was like a real trust like they knew me very well and we were like, you know very close to that but they're still talking you know, it's kind of weird like yeah talk talk him through it and it when when the lights go out like it is yeah, like the lights really go out like there's there's just nothing there. It's kind of like a lump and mass of of material. It's really strange.

Rich 13:54 I wanted to ask you about that because so I think this always stuck with me from Have you ever read enduring love the Ian McEwan book?

Pope 14:02 Shit? No, no, I've seen I've seen the film. I bought the book. I never got around to reading it. But it's sort of our I know that there's always like a famous opening theme with the hot air balloon, the high air

Rich 14:15 balloon. Yeah. And someone someone falls from the hot air balloon and the narrator sort of runs over. And I it would be great if I could remember the phrasing of it now. But the way that he talked about suddenly being with this person, but also being alone because that he's dead. I always found a very, he actually played a part when my dad died, I got I wasn't there. I was living away and I came back and was given the opportunity to see his body. And I decided not to because I thought I don't want to be in a room with my dad and also be alone. And you can't unsee it. And so is it is it very different. I've never I've still never seen a dead body. It feels very different.

Pope 14:59 So what you Yeah, that's what you said about being alone that that yeah that that is the strangest part of it when you're with someone else you're you're with someone else there's like another another presence but when you are alone in the room with with a corpse is it it's kind of a you know, I mean I'm kind of in a theory list rather than a materialist so I do believe in like the continuation of some kind of some kind of cognizance or something I don't know what I believe in life after death basically. But what it does not exist in that capsule that is left there on the bed, it does not exist in that kind of Cara pace. That is the you know, that is left on the bed of the of the body, the body that is there is no longer got spirit inside it wherever. It's, yeah, it really kind of weird and like, I felt I write about it in, in the book about why I just just one occasion I remember of, I've been alone, kind of in a room with a resident who had died, everyone else is kind of late in the evening as well. Just one kind of dimly lit like pens, and a light bulb or kind of eerie atmosphere. And just being aware of like the silence for not just the kind of oral silence, it's like a, like a kind of cosmic silence or something is is really kind of heavy. And because my usual response as a comedian is to kind of undermine solemnity, or to like catheterized experience and temporarily to temporarily draining off his misery or whatever, because I was feeling this really heavy emotion, didn't really know what to do with it, sort of standing there. And then I just went to the courts, I just went, You're fat

I just really my head like, boisterous, inconvenient, like, inappropriate, I mean, inappropriate thing I could do in this moment. And in that moment, just by saying that it kind of felt like that I was kind of reviving, like reviving the relationship, but not that I ever called this person fat or anything like that. But I don't know why it was it was it was irrational. That was the point. Yeah, and irrational. For whatever reason, I haven't excavated it too much. I just felt I had to just say something. And I decided to just say, you're fat. I think it's because I think it's because I've often seen them and like, you know, they're, you know, she's a lady had a bit of weight on her like, that's part of getting older as well. It's nothing, you know, full, and I must have just fought it at some point. You must never say that to a person. Because, you know, it's not very nice to say those sorts of things. And then that was my final opportunity to get that off my chest.

Rich 17:56 If you're going to tell someone that fat, it's right to wait until just after they've died. Although you've got to hope.

Pope 18:02 Oh, I'm a very moral person, you say exactly what I want you to do they die.

Rich 18:08 But you were saying about the like the consciousness leaving the body. You still gotta hope that's true. Because imagine if you just died, and then someone went, by the way you're fat you're but I feel like I've just give me a rough day as

Unknown Speaker 18:24 my life well.

Pope 18:29 This is the worst thing that's happened to me. Let

Speaker 1 18:34 down. It's a bit much I suppose. It is funny, though. You know, it's what really sticks out to me. And it's like what you said earlier about our surface feels a bit inappropriate. But I think all the listeners to this podcast will know by now is what me and rich are about is have been very uncomfortable talking about death and grief, and struggling our way through that by laughing and laughing in places where it's not appropriate to laugh. It is let's be fair, not appropriate to call someone fat after they've died. But that helps you get through that moment, doesn't it?

Pope 19:10 Yeah, exactly. That was it. Like for what I Christ knows why I chose that particular method of kind of alleviating wherever, you know, wherever I was feeling the profundity of feeling I was experiencing, you know, that was inside me at that moment. But yeah, that's exactly it. That is there is a there is a word I'm looking for there is a Yeah, I know it's a word that's thrown around a lot, but it is quite cathartic to do that kind of stuff. But sometimes it can be inappropriate like, alright, like, I remember when my nan died and I told my mom I was going to use her as a toboggan my dead like

the problem was

I love my nanny, I loved him. I loved the debates, but it is just there is that that inside of me unfortunately, which my mum actually probably understands quite well we've both got quite a dark comics and

Tom Gerken 20:15 it triggered a bizarre memory in me from when I was about eight when

Speaker 1 20:21 my granddad had just died. And my dad my mum had obviously said to my dad something along the lines of take the kids out to go feed for ducks in the park, you know, sort of out the house, for whatever reason, as they did, and we were messing about a bit and and, and we bought a loaf of bread and said, right, that certainly took the life of bread and he threw it in the bin. So we're just going home. So went home. It was his mum who it sorry, his dad who just died so his dad had died. Right. So you know, I know what he felt.

Tom Gerken 20:48 Anyway, so we got back to the house, and it was there. And she was like, oh, what's wrong? Brendan Vincent, Ariana went. First granddad dies. And now this

Unknown Speaker 21:07 like, you're like,

Unknown Speaker 21:10 you believe it?

Unknown Speaker 21:12 The same day?

Rich 21:15 equally awful things.

Pope 21:17 Yeah. In fact, it's just getting worse. Granddad died which is bad enough. But then the fucking brain

Tom Gerken 21:28 tells you story about why this is how I deal with grief because that was her daddy died as well my arm. And you know, she loves I can remember picture laughing at that, you know, it's what stuck in my mind. So obviously, they trained me at an early age to laugh at when people die.

Pope 21:45 Yeah, I think you've got a lot I really, I say, is a recurring trope in my stand up there. Like, there is something I don't know what it is. I just, there's something about death that I couldn't really Yeah, like, this is why I was really excited to do this podcast. So obviously both of you exactly the same. There is like a lot of comic potential in DEF. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know why and but it's some people can be really confined. It's really off putting and inappropriate, which is I understand that's pre a more natural light sign response, really, but But yeah, there is there is part of me that just thinks like, Oh, come on, like, like, yeah, I don't know what else you're going to do with death. Like there's only so like, obviously, you should be able to grieve in the way you want to grieve And take as much time as possible in that grieving process. And I'd never deprive someone of them, or like tell them how to how to grieve. But I it to me, it feels it does feel healthy, to at least find room for, you know, a bit of a bit of levity in your response within your response to death. I think so anyway, yeah, I might be wrong.

Rich 23:01 No, I think with as with anything, in any form of grief, you can't force people to respond that it would be bad if we were like, you have to laugh about it. But I think it's okay to say if you want to laugh about it, you should be allowed to. And that's kind of the idea of this podcast was both of us. Sort of. I mean, as a comic, you'll know sometimes things happen. And you think of something funny to say. And there's nothing more annoying than when you you can't say that because it's not appropriate at the time. And I remember I was obviously was devastated when my dad died. I was still funny, or sad, funny stuff to say. And I was like, I can't. And I'd make jokes, my friends and because they were sort of, they'd never been or anything like that. And they didn't know what to do. They react awkwardly. And then I thought I can really talk about it. Whereas sometimes you just if somebody's willing to laugh, laugh about it. You got to let them laugh. You got to give them permission to laugh and permission to cry and permission to use the noun as a toboggan if they need to. One specifically, it's a

Speaker 1 24:04 good idea to bulk running around the streets of London.

Pope 24:10 streets of St. Louis. We will toboggan in there famously no no I I don't know why. I don't know what what compelled me to say that I was young girls like 13 years old. I might just watch Cool Runnings.

Tom Gerken 24:24 I really thought you were gonna say that you were six that you were 30 This is usable. You're about to start your GCSEs

Rich 24:40 to boggling to a mock GCSE

Pope 24:42 Yeah, exactly.

I I've actually like I used to always end my set with this bit. And it was long and drawn out and then there's like a real like kind of sting at the end of like kicker at the end it always get a big response, but is basically about elderly Dev and And, like the, the elders aren't having a good season. So I've taken it out, take it out of the rotations and time being but the kind of premise of it was like the impatience of death like when, you know, I was with a woman and I thought it was going to be a real kind of cinematic nd like, like just neat filmic and, and she was like, chain stoking. Final, final breaths. And I was like, oh, shoot, she's gone. She's gone. And then she went, and I went, Oh, not yet. And that happened three times. And in my head. I was thinking like, why are you ruining your death for me?

Unknown Speaker 25:40 That's a very good.

Pope 25:42 I was I was impatient for I do remember. Like, I was like, obviously I did. You know, I didn't say out loud. It's just saying in my head, but I remember feeling a little little bit impatient that she wasn't dying properly. And she's very, you know, very ego centric rings.

Speaker 1 25:57 It's funny. You mentioned the it's funny. You mentioned this idea about the the end of life that you just mentioned there about, you know, some people feeling like they're waiting for death almost. Yeah, I remember my, my gran before she died, this was during COVID. This was her like life perspective. For the last year of her life. She was just like, I am so I'm just so done, lads. I've had enough of this. Let's just say we call you know, I mean, wrap it up, wrap it up. I'm done. My dad died. Especially she was just like, Oh, come on. I've got cataracts. I can't even watch friends anymore. Ya know? Is it worth it with your friends

Pope 26:47 friends for everything.

Bloody friend.

Tom Gerken 26:53 When you can't watch manicure anymore, you know what's what's what's really going on? It's quite an interesting perspective to take on

Pope 27:01 it, you know what that is? Really. It's quite kind of like they're the time that that's quite common in the care homes and I find it I find it actually very unlike it's really kind of good for my anxiety. It helps me in a way I find it quite sort of liberating and beautiful in its own way of like the resignation like how resigned they are to death where there's almost a cheerfulness in there. They're anticipating their death right now talk about Oh, am I dead yet? Not quite yet. But maybe hopefully maybe tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow's another day tomorrow's another day or you know hopefully not not another day it's a yeah there's quite it's quite nice when that happened when that happens because they are they have kind of like settled into into death they have settled into death which is is I mean like you know for someone who's very very old it's fine but obviously you know fucking tragic if you have you know, you have a young person speaking in that way that's not very

Tom Gerken 28:06 well I suppose. So. My dad's saying when he had a as it turned out Yeah, so we can have a couple of weeks left but we didn't know at the time

Speaker 1 28:15 I remember having to just chat to him about stuff myself you've been reading anything lately This one says books she said well there's no fucking point there's no fucking point starting a new book now is there

Speaker 4 28:31 it didn't want to get almost get to the end and then not now right finishes How would you know that you don't know how it ends

Rich 28:42 you don't want that to be your final thought do you don't want to be like halfway through Game of Thrones and then be like Oh no. Oh shit. Oh, bollocks. And then you did? Yeah.

Pope 28:51 Did did Ross and Rachel get did she get off the plane

Rich 29:03 Do you Do you feel like it's made you more or less ready because I feel like it could go one of two ways couldn't it being so close and so involved in death constantly? does it prepare you more or

Pope 29:15 the one thing that did help me is that my mom actually died while giving birth to my brother so in childbirth my mom died like in for you know her I can't remember how long she remembers it. And it was the usual thing of like seeing a white light feeling bliss kind of pure bliss and just kind of you know submitting to what was coming next and she said that's stopped her from ever feeling scared of death and I was like yeah, but imagine if you like fucking like that fit Quinn duck or like where you like set yourself on fire like you just had like a nice Blissful Death but you didn't have someone like decapitated you never

because it's like someone's cutting your swords literally like cutting your bloody head off. You can't just sit there.

Lovely. Just enter into the light while they remove my head.

Rich 30:16 I'm Mel Gibson at the end of Braveheart just peacefully slipping into another world as a man pauses beating heart out. It's not quite I mean, does it bother you at all that your mom was clearly so welcoming of the possibility of death that she was giving birth to your brother and then when you die now shouldn't Oh find around she was like, No, I was ready.

Pope 30:43 Like mom you've got no got fuck all fighting? Because I might need to have a word for it. So like please like fight a little bit more.

A bit of a bit more fun. I want to I want a couple more years with you left yet but yeah, it's I take Yeah, I don't know. I do I do. I do actually worry about death quite a lot. I worry, I worry about my myself dying. Not, not not not because I think oh, I won't be here. And you know, all the things I could have achieved anything. I just didn't know what it would do. To my to come home my parents and I've been very I've tried killing myself twice. And I've had, you know, I've had, I've had experiences where I've like, I studied, you know, fly about four or five times now. And so yeah, I've had sort of dem kind of experiences and I know what you do to my parents. So I do. Yeah, I do. I do kind of worried about getting into that mindset again, where I'm kind of want to, you know, want to die. You know, I don't I don't at the moment. I don't want to die. I'm fine. But yeah, you just never know do Yeah.

Rich 31:53 This might be a stupid question. I'm not sure. But you were talking about your mom not being scared of death because of her previous death. So when you're in that headspace, that you've been in where you wanted to end your life, are you still scared of death? Or is it no longer a frightening thing?

Pope 32:11 There's no longer frightening. That's the failure. So I always say to people, it's when when you when the person who previously exhibited like very manic behaviour or depressive behaviour, whatever, when they suddenly seem better, and like surprised, like, you know, if there's been a drastic change in their temperament and they're fine, they're fine. Now, that's a red flag. Like that's the danger. Because you again, it's like that you're resigned yourself to death, death, and I remember I took myself to Amsterdam to try and kill myself. It's awful. It's like, a like, because it's like just lovely, kind of tranquil canals. I was like, it's almost like dying and just like slipping into like a pastoral drawing, or like, like slipping into like an oil painting. Quite nice, quite nice scenery. Even though like the way I tried to kill ourselves get a big, big gravel bag on my head and duct tape it to my fucking neck. Like it's like your peaceful, peaceful method, and then actually had to ended up buying an hour of sex workers time not to not to have sex just so that to keep safe. And we ended up watching two episodes of of the good place on Netflix. Which is ironic because I was not in a good place.

Unknown Speaker 33:33 But we yeah, we.

Pope 33:34 Yeah, that's what happened. It was quite that was quite a nice experience. Looking back on it. Yeah, yeah. Weird, weird, weird. And in the time, right the time I tried to kill myself before that. I really I can't really remember because I was sort of had there's a bit of drink in the mix as well. And we'd gone to a trip. For college. I had no friends in college apart from the tutors like like literally none. I had my friends free friends outside, or I've been friends with since I was a baby, but in college had no one as apart from the tutors, and we went on his trip away to St. Ives, and there was like this me and this other girl who I never spoke to at all, but we were both kind of loners in our own way. And yeah, I felt like on that trip. I was gonna like really, you know, like, leaving it leave an indelible mark. By far it's gonna be like a showstopper if the showing showing question was my own life. So that's what I tried to kill him myself. But then she then she saves me by it she fucking like after this happened. I was like the talking point. Not that I did it for that reason, but you know, it's one of the surprises. Yeah, it's one of the apps Yeah, exactly. Is that you gotta get get no sign sign for yourself, okay. And that was it. But then I got upstaged by girl who ended the other girl that weirdo who ended up vomiting up a fully intact autumn leaf. She bought me fat I'm really fucking weak. It was like

it was like it was like a fucking like glitch. Oh we oh, sorry we all saw it but not like none of us acknowledged it. I'm sorry she quickly scraped back into pockets is fucking right, nothing could have

Speaker 1 35:34 prepared me for that. There's so many questions because it doesn't mean that she was eating leaves. It means she was swallowing them whole

Pope 35:44 Yeah, that's the only way Exactly And the worst thing was is like so she was obviously a bit of a social pariah not not I didn't like I I was a social pariah because of forever reasons but she was so big so I tried killing myself in the funnel Yeah, she was shocking leave

Unknown Speaker 36:06 not leave fixer leaf swallow

Pope 36:10 no to exactly exactly burping up the fucking season

she was on the phone she was on the phone afterwards site with her legs up on the wall like talking to a mom really upsetting that and I could hear her talking she's going Yeah, yeah like really quiet and timid again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not nice not going too well. And then there's like a pause and she went yeah, yeah happened

why are you fucking late?

Is the problem is it like we net it net? We never follow up on it. Sorry. None of us could like confirm like what we'd seen it was yes. So weird. And like me and this other guy who always like talking about guy like, that was a fucking leaf. That was like, I'm not making it up and like that was a full fucking leaf wasn't where you

Unknown Speaker 37:11 cope. That's the funniest thing I've heard in years.

Rich 37:16 What's great about that, is that even for you, the highlight of that holiday wasn't your own suicide.

Pope 37:24 girl she fucking on stage

Rich 37:32 with the AI to make Simon in high school, this is not relevant to death at all. But he wants sneezed out a whole grape. And he swears he swears he never inhaled a grape. But fully intact. Great.

Pope 37:46 See, that shit happens. It does happen. And it always sounds like like that can't possibly be nice, but yeah, it does.

Rich 37:55 What I was gonna ask was You mentioned earlier that you're a Quaker. And how does that because I'm like me and Tom are both atheists. But one of the things I'm fascinated talking to people about is sort of what you believe either happens after you die or what your sort of take on the afterlife is and whether that changes the way you think of death your own death or other people's death.

Speaker 1 38:17 Well, could you give us a quick a quick summary of what Quakers are first and then get into it?

Pope 38:24 So So yeah, quite Quakers are basically like a Christian denomination but like a lot of Christian denominations. They were at one point, heretics and they, they they believe in they don't believe in like idolatry. They don't believe in holy places. They believe that there is an innate godliness within all of us, like within all of us, so it's like a very like communitarian religion, and you can just do I am mainly picked it's like you can do at home quaking, you don't even have to go to the Quaker House. You can just start Kota. I'm quaking right now. Like, it's like a very laser bones religion. quaking? Yeah. Oh, and after life, it's always a question about the afterlife. Do you know what I've got some weird right I've got weird ideas about the afterlife. Yeah, so there's this there's this philosopher I think he's Danish I don't know how to pronounce his name. There's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of different there's a lot of argument about how to pronounce his name, but it's g ULINCX. And

Unknown Speaker 39:41 when I have a punter pronouncing it just for fun,

Pope 39:44 goo girly because our fucking GuLing Oh

he's so he's one of he's one of like that. is Samuel Beckett's kind of favourite philosophers, especially when it came to the idea of the far away non interventionist God, and that you basically had a God who, like, you know, was the catalyst for kind of cosmic expansion. And it just looks the other fucking way. So just kind of went may call this and they looked out the window and it's kind of a god that's completely insulated from all human or animal activity and yeah basically made the world and looked out the window. And I believe as a kind of weird like talisman is the right word I think when I was really little, I went to a hoarders house lady used to look after me briefly went to her house looked under the sofa, found a little bit of sweet corn. And it just for some reason, it disgusted me that it was just one singular little nugget of corn, rather than like I would have rather like a full pile but it's just one single corn nugget. Yeah, like one little nugget of call a colonel is it or whatever. And then, so yeah, that's fine. Then I went home and went back four years later, and looked under the sofa, the same little, but very dehydrated little bit. And, and I've kind of applied this idea of, of this far away Gu links Ian God, to this little bit, for some reason has been like a symbiotic connection between the two in my head of like this little corn that if I do, I'm Chinese within my prayer rituals. I've got these free orthodox saints I owe called Frank after my granddad, they're Russian Orthodox saints. I pray to them. And I also pray to this perennial corn. I called it and it's like, there's some kind of weird, like religious continuity between this little corn that existed under a mile hordes and so far. So that's my religious practice, really. And we've all we've all we've all got that we will pray to a little bit

Tom Gerken 42:18 I suppose beyond beyond praying to the Koran. I think I think the question was about whether there's an afterlife, and I think I really need to press you on an answer. Yes. on what's happening.

Pope 42:31 Okay. Yeah, I'll be I'll be succinct. Like just

Unknown Speaker 42:37 that it's quite funny.

Pope 42:40 Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:43 10 minutes on cord after like your own work.

Unknown Speaker 42:48 Yeah, yeah, quite often, it's quite

Unknown Speaker 42:51 funny. This is,

Rich 42:52 again, maybe an oversimplification. But when you were talking about praying to a God that you also believe, isn't listening. But it's sort of the little bit that you can do just on the off chance. And maybe, again, maybe it is an oversimplification, but it's almost feels like quite a nice analogy for your care work. Because you know, that what you're doing isn't going to change what's inevitable, but you're doing your little bit. In the meantime, does that make sense?

Pope 43:22 Yeah, no, that's really like a really, really great way of thinking about it absolutely. is, it's, it's always it's all it's, yeah, that's exactly what I always say it's about managing your expectations on what you can achieve. And if you can achieve, you know, like just just moments, moments of engagement so I'll give you like a for instance, I there's one lady that I cared for, for three years, and we were very close and she was she would get quite Aggie with a lot of other characters always feel very confident when they would always recognise like couldn't quite place how she knew me but recognise me and knew I was like, a comforting presence didn't know my name for three years or kept forgetting my name, but no, no, I know you I know him. I know him ventually even though you know she had frontal lobe dementia, neurodegenerative disease and had to kind of present a memory formation was very impaired, for like, present a memory, you know, new memories. But then after that three years, for some reason, she suddenly just started remembering my name. And she just I thought, I've just had an impact where we've persistence and you know, being part of the life for that amount of time. She suddenly just it just locked just locked in her head and then she remembered my name from then on. And just yeah, things like that. of just Yeah, little little moments of kind of think A judgement and connection and, and just, you know, moments of tenderness and like delicacy of feeling just like one guy who I just helped it, he had a terrible, terrible anxiety. Just very briefly for about an hour, I helped to reduce his anxiety by kicking a box of tissues around like football, like, and we just work, we're just sitting in a bedroom, so you like to be with people. So he would be with me why made the beds, and he would like, help me just, you know, take the corners, and you know, put the duvet cover on here, just follow me about and help me do that. And then now just like he, he just threw tissue box on the floor, and that sort of kicked it a little bit. And when I do go, I do go like that, and then went up to the cabinets, and was like, going like that as if like, oh, look, this is the goal. And then I just played a little bit of kickabout with him and it for like, his agitation was so extreme. And just for an hour, it like reduced it to where it was like, wasn't there, just from that little activity, and me just kind of like chatting and stuff. And things like that would happen. You know, you know, it happened a lot with different residents. But yeah, but then it was always pizza, you know, peaks and troughs, or one step forward, two steps backward. It was always that sort of thing. But it was just yeah, nice to know that a gilded moment, I'd call it like, you know, you just get a moment where they're their symptoms are reduced and feeling happy or positive for you know, wherever.

Rich 46:31 And it's it's very, it's a very human story. And I think particularly the last year and a half, there's been a lot of kind of dehumanisation of older age people. Because during the pandemic, it's there's been a lot of talk of, well, it's only old people dying. And well, there's, there's an argument of, they've had more of a life. It breeds this thought of people in care homes are not people, whereas you spend your whole life with them. And they're all human. And they all have lives and stories and personalities.

Pope 47:05 Exactly that and like I have, like, I've had to stop kind of reading certain offensive stuff on Twitter, because it can feel me a real kind of rage and anger. And I understand the the kind of utterly rational argument for a former like bureaucratic triage in hospitals where you are going to prioritise younger patients. Of course, that's the way it should be. It's, you know, it's fucking horrible that we've, we've got to that point, but that will be sort of slightly beyond it now, hopefully. But yeah, it was good. It did get to that stage. And I understand the justification for that. But we've that we've even we've recognising that as a necessity, it doesn't mean like you said, you then need to deprive these people of their humanity, or think of day life as like a protracted drawn out cessation, or death. It's, it's madness, how kind of common that that viewpoint can be. Even amongst, you know, even amongst like relatives sometimes, like, when they talked about their mom or dad wherever, like, as if they're already dead, and they're literally sitting next to them that's sitting next to them, I've had to say to relatively isolated, well, you know, we'll leave your money and we'll talk outside because mainly, I don't feel comfortable, you know, doing that I and people shouldn't think about, you know, think about these human beings as if they're already dead, whether or not Yeah, it can. Yeah, I mean, a whole lot of this stuff like the rhetoric around social care and care work and how sort of dehumanising it can be it can really, really anger me? And, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm hoping if there's one thing that I can do, like, when when the book comes out, you know, get a bit of a platform talking about those issues. I hope that is something where I can shift the needle slightly in, in, in that view of, of ageing, and of the care home life. Yeah, yeah, I think I think, but then I think, yeah, you know, there are also a lot of good people like, like yourselves, who, who, who recognise that, you know, these are people with who still have robust personalities even, you know, slight, slightly diminished, and, I don't know, even diminishers kind of changed. They're just their, their, their, their personalities and their lived, lived existence. It just kind of, it's just kind of changed and turned into something else. But yeah, yeah, sorry. I was rambling a bit there. Apollo was a

Speaker 1 49:52 great answer. Really good. We've been talking for a while now. And, and and, you know, we we weren't Have all of your time from you forever. I promise the podcast will end one day.

Tom Gerken 50:06 But one thing we like to do on the show is we like to

Speaker 1 50:12 try and give the listener a sort of guide, if you will, an idea for different ways of dealing with things, when someone close to you has died. And I was just wondering if we could get back to how you mentioned, you know, how you do deal with death. And particularly, you know, when someone you, whether it's someone who you've known for nine years, or whether it's someone you've known for a few months, what's the way that you are able to deal with that?

Pope 50:43 That's, uh, yeah, that's, I mean, it's lovely, that that's part of the podcast, that's, that's such a, will be really helpful to a lot of people. I mean, for me, I've got, I've kind of, I've obviously had to do this, you know, because I am writing a book, but even just like, besides that, just, I'm someone who's kind of kept journals and notebooks and stuff since I was seven years old. And I've wrote down some recollections of like, say, for instance, that restaurant I was telling you about, or looked after for nine years. As like, you know, there's stuff that's committed to memory, and I've tried to write it down as like a short, you know, short story template or whatever. And a lot a lot of the people really I've written about in the book have died now. And I kind of brought them it really brought them into relief as, as, as like a character, you know, characters with road idiosyncrasies, and fully well rounded personalities by just writing a scene of I suppose, yeah, just right committing it to record and like, then you then that's a way to, you know, the intelligibility and the legacy that we seek, in that I'm sure everyone wants to leave a residue on this on this on this earthly plane, it that might be just a very small way of doing it of writing down your recollections of that person, or even just one recollection, just that you think you think kind of sums them up, as you know, the role they played within your life, I think that's a nice way of doing it. Yeah, just just kind of writing down like writing, you know, committing them to the page is quite a nice way of doing our thing. I find it quite helpful to do that kind of stuff anyway.

Rich 52:36 Yeah, that's a very practical bit of advice. And I think it's sort of it gets to one of the problems with grief, at least, I've found this balancing how you think about that person, because those sorts of decisions, we sort of, there can be two approaches, which is that you think about them all the time. Or you try to not think about them at all. And I think part of dealing with grief, or just working out how much to think about them and how to think about them without that. And I guess you're writing down something that's not related to the fact that they're dead. That is just the story from their life. Again, it's a thing of humanises someone. And that's certainly one of the things that I find with my family is just talking about my dad. Not not being like, Oh, isn't it a shame that he's not around anymore? Just being like tremble when he joined the how much he used to fart? I mean, it was it's weird, the sort of the memories that you get, because he in the morning used to have a coffee, and immediately do a shit. Like in need here. Like that. Yeah, that's the thing. I've gradually started to become that person that I have to have a coffee first thing and I immediately have to do a poo. And there was a day where I was doing it was like, like, Dad. So where do I get nostalgic? Sit in there.

Pope 53:57 I love that, that that that shitting as I can

Rich 54:00 to make me feel closer. Yeah, and

Pope 54:03 it is weirdly enough it is those kind of almost like quite kind of quotidian like memories or you know, quite quite kind of like you like the kind of the that's like the stuff of living isn't it? So it's not even like the big you know, big, elaborate events of their life. It's like these just these little details. You know, you could turn into a vignette on the page or whatever is so like, like one thing I know with my dad like he's alive obviously but when I kind of think of him is ever since I was young, he's always had kind of like deep frown lines or like deep recesses in his head and they're just a full of like frown lines is quite a strange thing and something and also the fact that my dad used to as a summon or get like a detective used to walk around the town in bare feet like a lot. Like just quiet like used to walk around like a you know, when you're on holiday and you kind of walk around with just like a towel on and flip flops. Yeah, he would do that in like South End. And so little details like that, that if you can capture them, you know, in whatever way possible. Like is yeah, that's the kind of stuff that has the most potency I think, rather than, you know, like the really the really kind of big, big events. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's great. I love that. I love that with your dad, sort of just doing a really big shit. And

this is I'm carrying it I'm pretty you pass me the torch that you pass with a torch is lovely.

Tom Gerken 55:39 Basically, we've got three ways of dealing with death here. We've got writing it out as a lovely journal, doing a poo. Or of course the classic. asked to write there. Was it a bug?

Pope 55:55 Yeah, exactly. There you go. Perfect. Perfect. There you go.

Speaker 1 56:05 The woman threw up a leaf rich.

Rich 56:09 That is astonishingly that's the headline of the whole episode, all the amazing stories, poignant moments and really funny lines from Pope. What anyone is going to come away from that episode thinking is how, how and why

Tom Gerken 56:28 the practicalities of it is something that I'm still not getting to. And this notion that she was she wasn't eating the leaves because that involves chewing. She was she was just she was somehow she was swallowing wandering leaves. She was swallowing

Rich 56:45 leaves. And that's not something you do by accident. And then less Secondly,

Unknown Speaker 56:50 you can't accidentally sort of relief and wasn't wasn't the line.

Rich 56:53 She said on the phone to a mum. It happened again.

Speaker 1 56:55 It happened again. Yes. If we assume that that's real and not just a punch line then i She's constantly following leaves. Yeah, she's not producing them from nowhere.

Rich 57:08 Yeah. Wow. What an episode.

Speaker 1 57:11 What an episode. Really funny. Really serious. Really earnest?

Rich 57:15 Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 57:16 At home quaking, I've got written down. Yeah.

Rich 57:20 Yeah, Pope is Pope is amazing. And when we recorded that he hadn't yet released his book, other bingo. The speed that we move out on this podcast means that since we recorded that interview, he's written and released a book, which has been out for quite a long time. Now I've read it, it is genuinely fantastic. And I started reading it in an airport. And I finished it. I think I'd almost finished it by the end of that plane journey. It really is that readable and and funny and moving. And just like a deeply sort of kind and caring book that I think makes you want to be a better person. Genuinely, it would made me want to be a better person reading it. So if you haven't read it, buy it out after bingo in all good bookshops. I assume. Probably actually. Not anymore.

Speaker 1 58:13 I wasn't I wouldn't have thought so any more. I mean, I was in Amazon's there. But you can do any Google. Just Google it and then you can find that. Yeah, yeah. No Samsung books, or Amazon. I'm not one to tell you where to buy stuff from buy it from Amazon. Yeah, don't all fine. Yeah. Yeah. So don't do both though. Because that's a waste of money. Unless you're gifting it. But then probably that's a waste of the planet.

Rich 58:36 Yeah, lots to think about. Get it on Kindle. Get anybody's Kindle if you enjoyed Pope's Pope's voice so you can do that right? That's got audible so I get it. Okay. Oh, genuinely All joking aside, I absolutely loved it. And I think it's brilliant and quite important book. So yeah, it what however you can get your hands, eyes or ears on it. Do it.

Speaker 1 59:04 And I'm sure if you if you live in London, you can see him you can hear him live as well.

Rich 59:10 Yeah, absolutely. He's He's rounded about right. I think before we go, we should remind our wonderful listeners of the best way to help this podcast if if you're a fan and you'd like to help it

Tom Gerken 59:24 please just go on iTunes and rate review and subscribe we've rerecord this like 10 times because I keep swearing. Can you please just go on iTunes and and and click five stars or Spotify click the five stars. That's all. Whenever you do that. You bring us just that bit closer to you know, more people listening. Yeah, so if you haven't done it yet, it's just so easy to do. What do you do just click the button

Rich 59:52 then you sounding desperate. Now listen, if you've got if you've got time, and you'd like To help us out, leave a review and a rating. Also follow follow us on social media we're putting a bit of content out now even though I hate saying that dad's died pod@gmail.com Or just

Speaker 1 1:00:13 go on social media at our dad's died on Instagram or Twitter. We've already had several people living it's lovely comments on Instagram on these videos as well as sending us messages. We do reply to our messages. So you know, do do send one and that'd be fantastic. And we'll we'll put it in the bank for when we do our episode called your dad's died, where we talked about the death of your dad's and other family members and friends

Rich 1:00:40 and friends, what a way to end. Thanks very much for listening. Once again. We'll be back next week and until then, just remember death comes to us all when it comes. We're also

Transcribed by https://otter.ai