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Jen (00:00:04) - Welcome to Myrtle Moms with Margaritas. The show where we sip cool drinks, talk about hot topics and certainly don't take ourselves too seriously. Grab your favorite beverage, give your kids the iPad and take a break because this episode we're getting some mental health from my cousin. I'm Jen, Colton and Nolan's mom. Shannon (00:00:21) - I'm Shannon Gabriel and Grayson's mom. And we're really excited about our guests today. Jen (00:00:27) - Yeah, I get to bring in a family member. I'm so excited. Shannon (00:00:29) - Well, Jen, do you want to introduce your cousin, or would you like for me to introduce your cousin? Jen (00:00:34) - I'll do it. I'll do it. (All right, I'm set.) Please welcome to the show, Devin Dyal Stockton. She is a licensed professional therapist with over 20 years of experience working with school-aged children in the school setting, as well as providing general therapy in her private practice with people of all ages. She was named Colonial School District's inaugural Behavioral Health Professional of the Year in 2022-23 and is very passionate about working closely with Colonial School District equity initiatives, creating and providing professional development for staff and teachers around racial equality and identity. Jen (00:01:11) - She is a boy mom to Cash and Carter (Cash is ten, Carter five) and wife to Stephan. The Stocktons love going to Delaware beaches, hanging out at their community pool and all things sports. She is also a Phillies fan and Eagles fan, so it runs in the family, guys. Shannon (00:01:28) - I just say she's definitely related to you! Jen (00:01:31) - So let's welcome to the show, Devin (Devin!) Yeah! How are the boys? Devin (00:01:36) - The boys are good. The boys are home all the time. <laughing> (So, that's right. Because you're in the school system.) So, yeah, they're not really; like my son, Cash. He's ten. He's around (All the time.) But our little guy, Carter, he's about to be five. And I'll tell you, if you ever want to feel like you're never, ever right about anything, let a ten-year-old boy follow you around. Shannon (00:01:28) - My oldest will be nine next month, and I completely understand. (Yeah) Especially the first child. Devin (00:02:17) - Yes, that one. And then the second one is like a feral midget dictator. Like, they just control and rule everything. And for some reason they make them cute enough to do it. Shannon (00:02:24) - That is hilarious. Devin (00:02:25) - How are you adjusting to life with two? Jen (00:02:28) - Pretty well. Pretty well. Mr. Nolan is just — he easily fits into our family and sometimes I'm like, “Oh my gosh,” I feel like I haven't spent any time with him or helped raise him because he's just — he's there and he just comes along and does everything that we do. (Exactly.) It's not as stressful as having the first one where you're like, “Am I feeding him improperly? Am I changing him at the right times? Is he sleeping enough?” Devin (00:02:51) - All of that goes out the window. Jen (00:02:53) - Is Carter going to start kindergarten? Devin (00:02:55) - He is. He's starting kindergarten. So, this coming school year will be the only year that the boys are at the same school. So that's kind cool (Yeah!) It’s going to be fun. Carter will be in K and Cash will be in 5th grade. Shannon (00:03:08) - Is Cash looking forward to that or is he like, “No, I don't want this”? Devin (00:03:11) - I don't think he cares. Like, he goes to school with a bunch of kids that have a bunch of siblings. So I think it'll be a natural sort of thing for him. (Got it.) I don't think he’ll care. Shannon (00:03:21) - Now, do you work at their school? Devin (00:03:23) - I don't. I work in the district in which they work in; so I actually work in the feeder. So, that's the K-5 neighborhood school for where — not where I live, but where we work, in Newcastle. And then I work at the middle school. So I work with 6th, 7th, and 8th graders that come up from Wilmington Manor. Shannon (00:03:40) - Oh, see, you're busy. Devin (00:03:42) - Yeah. Middle school was an interesting beast. Very interesting. I've been doing it for ten years and don't think I would ever not do it. Shannon (00:03:50) - It takes a special person. Devin (00:03:51) - There's a distinct difference between the elementary mindset in that you're just not over the physical and hormonal side to eighth grade yet. And having that mindset of sort of being pushed to high school and like really having to have focus; the relationships, the social media drama — it is just very, very intense in 7th grade. Jen (00:04:13) - And are you finding that kids in middle school are getting wrapped up in the social media? Devin (00:04:19) - Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm actually fortunate because our principal is a leader in the state around ways to make sure that our cell phones aren't able to be used in (Oh, that's good.) the schools. And we can't not let you bring your cell phone, but what we have been implementing is the use of Yondr Pouches. So, like if you were to go to a concert and you weren't allowed to have your phone out, they give you a little pouch and you have to lock it and then they unlock it for you at the end. Shannon (00:04:47) - I've never heard of that. Devin (00:04:48) - Yeah. So it's really not necessarily the Yondr Pouch that's working, but it's definitely the deterrent of having your phone locked away for the day and your parent having to come pick it up for you at the end of the day. But it has probably decreased our behavior referrals and just the drama that we deal with on a daily basis probably by 50% this year compared to last year. Shannon (00:05:11) - What is the age group that usually — or, that you've seen — that has the cell phones? Is that starting in sixth grade or is it even younger than that? Devin (00:05:20) - Yeah, I would say a majority of sixth graders have phones or access to phones. There's a very small pocket of kids whose parents are like, “No, you're too young to have a phone.” In middle school, it's different too, because you're staying after school and you need to get picked up and you hang out with your friends and you’re going to be walking to your friend's house. So I understand the mentality behind having the phone. I just think, for my personal feeling — and my ten-year-old does have a phone. He got it for his 10th birthday — I will check your phone at free will, all the time, if I want to. And if we have any problems, it's, “Remember, it's not yours. It's mine.” So, you know, it's an uphill battle. Jen (00:05:56) - I mean, it's a battle that our parents didn't have to deal with. Shannon (00:06:00) - Yeah, I didn't even have a cell phone. And I had a prepaid minute cell phone when I started driving and I wasn't allowed to use it unless it was an emergency. Devin (00:06:09) - Sure, it's a different age, definitely. And to watch it sort of unfold over the past ten years has been pretty incredible to see what these kids deal with around cyber bullying and having access to pictures. And it's pretty wild. And that's why the big companies are getting a lot of pushback from public institutions now to take more responsibility and accountability for providing this unlimited access and absolutely no protective netting underneath of it. “What are we supposed to do when?” And we're figuring all of that out as we go, mostly in the public school settings. Jen (00:06:46) - Yeah, exactly. Add one more thing to the public school task list. Oh gosh. Shannon (00:06:52) - Do you have any recommendations when it comes to the parental guidance on the phones? Is there like an app or? My kids don't have phones, so I don't really know that much when it comes to how you can and can't check the phones, besides taking it. Devin (00:07:03) - I don't know too much about the actual digital side of being able to check phones and all that. I've heard that LifeLock 360 is something that people use. But honestly, just being a due-diligent parent and going through the group chats and asking who the friends are and being like, “You can't name your friends emojis, I need to know who you're speaking to.” You know, it's a more intense level of relationship building with your child. And I think it also provides a great opportunity to continue to build the relationship from the ages of, like, 11 to 13, 14, when we're sort of letting the independence happen, but then not knowing when to pull back, necessarily. It provides a lot of ground for really excellent conversations around the horrors that are out there. The way that friendships work, the way that people handle things, the way that putting yourself out there on the internet can have repercussions nowadays when it's time for college applications and job applications. Devin (00:08:04) - So I think it provides a huge educational foundation for parents, but it's just about the diligence of the parent and making sure that you still maintain control over what your kid is seeing and doing. And it's not perfect, because kids are very sneaky and they have their friend does and this and that and all their ways of communicating outside of the traditional platforms that, as parents, we know on the phones. So it's just about being diligent and staying up with what's going on; reading articles, knowing what to look for. It's just like anything else. You want your kid to be good at sports, you practice with them. You want them to be a good digital citizen, you sit down with them with their phone and it's like, “Show me what you're doing.” Jen (00:08:50) - Yeah, be in their world. Be in their space. (Yeah.) One of the things that Shannon and I were talking about — prior to jumping on the call, but — what should we be looking for in our children, that is a cry for help? How do we know when we need to take our kids to talk to somebody? Devin (00:09:05) - Sure — and I think it's different for every family. Every person's different, every family has their different boundaries and limits. But I would say market changes in behavior, you know? If your kid used to like to do things and now they want to spend all their time alone in their room. Listen, I get it. There's an ease to it, there's like, “Oh, they're fine. They're up there, they're hanging out,” whatever. I would say, just noticing the change and being able to ask the tough questions and being able to say,” Listen, talking to me might not be what you need, but if you want to talk to somebody where it's private and I'm not in the room,” — just providing the option, a lot of the times. But I would say looking for major behavior changes — quitting things, changing friends frequently — there's something going on. There's something happening in the social world, that they’re not feeling accepted by who they used to feel accepted by. Devin (00:10:00) - Maybe they're looking for acceptance in places and maybe it's friends that you don't know or it's like, “Oh, this is my new friend. They live in Indiana.” I see that a lot. A lot of having people feel like they're in these really connected relationships with strangers. I think that's pretty scary as a parent. It's like, “What are you searching for that you're not getting here?” And again, you have to be willing to have the difficult conversations. “What is going on? Let me help you identify how you're feeling if you don't get it. Are you having problems with friends?” You have to be willing to get in the mud with them and figure out so they can get out of the mud when they're stuck in it. Jen (00:10:43) - Do you have recommendations on how to start those conversations, like, whether it's at the dinner table — or does it matter? Is it just, “Hey, this feels like a good time to have this conversation?” Devin (00:10:53) - So it's interesting. One of the best tricks is the car ride and just be like, “Hey, dude, you want to go to Target?” Like, most likely the answer's yes. And then you start it off like, “Hey, I noticed that…” “I was wondering if…” “Can you help me understand…” Sort of those sentences. That's not like, “I know you've been sad.” Not accusational. You let them have their own feelings and sort of validate themselves, be like, “Listen, time can be tough. I've noticed whatever you've been noticing. And I was just wondering, can you tell me a little bit more about how you've been feeling?” And a lot of times it's situational and it's temporary, right? Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's more of a clinical sort of thing. And that's — it's a tricky thing to diagnose it in the early teens because of the hormonal changes that are going on so frequently and people just adjust to things so much differently than others. You know, some kids are just super resilient and can bounce from one thing to the next without it — like, just letting it go. Devin (00:11:52) - And some are super sensitive and they hold all of the feelings that something can provide in. And you know, those are sensitive souls and are sensitive babies who were like, <squeaking> “Ooo!” And sometimes as a parent it's hard. Maybe you're not that sensitive and seeking that sort of connection. That's not how you grew up. When you have a sensitive child, I think that can create a lot of difficult parenting dynamics. If you're not used to being able to express your feelings and understand and know and let your feelings and your emotions always guide you. But sometimes they don't always work out and no one's helping you navigate that? Yeah, it can really steer the ship in the wrong way a lot of the times. And you have to be very mindful. You have to pay attention to your kids. Shannon (00:12:41) - You know? And it's so funny, just — or not funny, but it's just amazing how so many parents or guardians, they don't pay attention. They're just blindsided because they are so wrapped up, whether it be in their career or other things they have going on. (Yep.) But now, have you noticed just because the kids that are moving into middle school now did go through with the Covid years (Yeah.) of whether the complete virtual or the hybrid schedule, have you seen that to be an effect on some of these children when it comes to the mental…? Devin (00:13:11) - Yes. So the Covid factor has really tested the resilience, I think, for not only a lot of our kids, but a lot of our families as well. And I think that a kid's ability to rebound from the pandemic era that we were living in is probably more so a direct reflection of how their parents have been able to deal with the pandemic as well. You know, kind of like compartmentalizing and into like, “Okay, it was this thing and it happened and we dealt with it and it's time to sort of move forward. However you feel comfortable doing that.” And then we still have some parents that are still very terrified and still want to use Covid as this reason for this and that. And it's an uphill battle. Devin (00:13:52) - But I would say for the kids in general, being isolated for probably the better part of 18 months, I would say (in our district at least), is when we were home — when I guess it was probably about a full year, a full year of online virtual school only. And the return from that was so controlled because our kids were cohorted; they weren't moving around like they normally move, they were sitting at the same desk the whole day. They were wearing their masks. They weren't able to interact with each other in a physical way at all. In that sort of environment, we're able to control behavior all day. Like that's nothing. So that first coming back that next year, that 2021-22 school year was an example of what happens when 12- and 13-year-olds are isolated for a year. (Yeah.) They forget how to talk to each other. They forget. It's just interesting to see the impact that being at your home has on one, because it's so different for everyone.

Devin (00:14:56) - So kids who had stable places to do their school work and had a parent to help them or had access to an older sibling or were so much more well adjusted to kids who had zero accountability because their parents are working full time. And there's absolutely — there’s not jobs where it's like, “Oh, I need to take off because my kid has school.” No, this is like you show up and you work in the Amazon warehouse or you're not getting a paycheck and you're not paying the rent. And you might have to face the consequences that are so serious. Education became secondary for so many families because of the pandemic. And that's an effect that we see also. But really, you just see the difference between the impact of having access to adults around you during virtual learning, study pods and cohorts, and you're not falling behind and you're still talking with people and you still have to have accountability — which is, I think, the big takeaway that we're seeing still. Jen (00:15:53) - Yeah. And I think we're going to see effects of it for a long, long time to come. (Really.) (Yeah.) It was a traumatic time for everyone. Devin (00:16:02) - It was, absolutely. (Yeah.) It was very interesting. Shannon (00:16:07) - Because it seems like now, mental awareness for the most part is actually more of a topic than it seemed to be before the pandemic. And, maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like it's just everywhere I turn. Just me in particular — I'm learning more and more about mental health and trying to stay healthy, be positive, — all these different things. It's just more. I don't know, it just seems like maybe it's the news. I don't know. <laughing> But it does seem like it is more relevant 24/7 these days. Devin (00:16:38) - I think it's less stigmatized now (Yeah.) because we were forced to grieve so rapidly and so often with the constant media cycles of the deaths around it. It was a huge trigger for so much of the population, just to have to deal with grief and loss on almost a daily basis. You're just watching these body counts go up and up and up for a year. And, collectively as a country, how do you collectively grieve something like that — in the midst of a very hotly contested political arena? Something that was a tragedy then became this very political-ized explosion and it created — god, this environment where — please talk about depression and anxiety! People are going to keep committing suicide at these rates that are unprecedented because we're supposed to act ‘normal.’ There's no normal. That's not a thing. Like, we have to stop. So, I am grateful for that piece of it. I'm always an advocate for all the things I believe in and I'll talk to anybody about any mental health stuff and I have for as long as I can remember. But, it's just important. It's just like you're allowed to say, “I'm not okay.” You don't have to say it to the stranger next to you at the movies, but use the people that you know and stop faking all this happiness and all of these things that don't feel good and stop saying “yes” to everything and say “no” if you don't want to go to a party Shannon (00:18:12) - I love it! Because trust me, I'd much rather go home and put on my pajamas and do it. Devin (00:18:13) - Oh my gosh, then do it! And you know, you can't do it every time because we have to socialize our kids and, you know, turn them into people that we respect and all of that, whatever. But sometimes you just got to stay home in your jammies and pop the popcorn and watch Super Mario for the hundredth time and listen to your kids giggle and go to bed early. Like, (Yeah.) as I get older (I just turned 43, which is weird because I don't feel 43) — Jen (00:18:44) - Yeah, yeah. I can't believe any of us are going into that age bracket! <laughs> Devin (00:18:46) - But here we are. And I just find that prioritizing yourself is the best thing that you can do for your mental health. Stop thinking about what other people care about. It doesn't matter. Do what's best for your family. If it's a Tuesday and you're like, “I cannot for one more second even think about cooking dinner. I’ve done it for 200 nights in a row. I don't care if these kids eat McDonald's,” let it happen and don't feel guilty. And that's my other philosophy. Do it and let it be what it is or don't do it and don't let it be what it is. But don't do it and then feel guilty about it. Jen (00:19:18) - Yeah, we talk about mom guilt on here so much and it's such a real thing. (It is.) Everything from saying “no” to going to a birthday party and feeling like, “Oh my gosh, am I the parent that didn't have the kid go to the birthday party?” to like, you know, letting your kid eat an extra cupcake at dinnertime or whatever it might be. Shannon (00:19:39) - Or have ice cream for breakfast! Whatever it may be! <laughing> Devin (00:19:42) - Exactly. (Exactly.) It’s your family and the only people that know what's best are the people that are in it every day. And that's you and your partner and your kids. And, you know, sometimes your kids are tired, too. Like today, every day I wake up and the first question, “What are we doing today?” (“What are we doing today?”) Yeah, I'm like, “I don't know… Nothing.” <laughs> Shannon (00:20:02) - Is that okay? Nothing? Jen (00:20:04) - “Nothing.” “What? Nothing? But Mo-ooom...” Devin (00:20:06) - I'm like, “You have an Xbox, you have a Fortnite account, you have a cellular device you can FaceTime whoever you want to.” I was like, “Please stop. We just spent four days at the beach.” Like, “Leave me alone.” Shannon (00:20:17) - It is awesome to be able to say “Like, look. I don't want to do that. Just leave me alone for just a little bit,” because I know that I'm terrible with saying no. And Jen can be too. That's one thing that she and I have been really trying to do for each other. It's like — Devin (00:20:34) - Once you find that mom friend that you can say no together on that side group chat — Oh my God. You're like, “Are we doing this? Are we doing this?” (Yeah.) Is it a little manipulative? Maybe? Whatever. But is it still doing what's best for you? It is. Jen (00:20:47) - It's effective. Yeah. Devin (00:20:48) - Be that person for each other. Like, social batteries — we expect them to last forever and they don't. And some people are just so much different from the extroverted type who craves that sort of interaction. Personally, everyone is sort of surprised to learn I'm very introverted. If it's not like a very intimate conversation as a therapist, like a one-on-one, — like, I enjoy this very much — but to be in a group of people and talk about the weather and where I went to high school? I hate it so much! Jen (00:21:19) - We definitely have that in common. (Oh yeah.) I cannot stand small talk. Louis is the one who wants to be part of every conversation and make everyone feel so welcomed. And I'm like, “Louis? (Yep.) I can't.” Devin (00:21:33) - Of course. But then our society says, like, that's the good guy, right? The guy — the extrovert, (Yeah.) the guy who wants to talk to everybody. That's just not how my brain works. “What do you want me to do? I'm a nice person, I swear.” Like, “I'm very fun to be around. I just don't like strangers very much.” Shannon (00:21:49) - I have to do it for my job; to have to put on the smile, the face, talk to everybody. So on the weekends, I don't want to see or talk to anyone. I know that's shocking, but it's like — Devin (00:22:04) - I'm sure people are surprised to find that out about you. Shannon (00:22:09) - Oh, yeah. I mean, we don't barely even know our neighbors just because I'm like, I get home, I just want to go inside and chill out. I'm like you. I swear, I'm not mean. I'm very nice. But once you hit that point, you're just like, “Okay, leave me alone.” Devin (00:22:21) - I just need the comfort of silence or just knowing what to expect from inside the walls of my home. And that's fine with me. But that's self-care. That's how you protect yourself from the occasional bouts of depression and anxiety that we receive is like really just retreating back to where you need to be. Where — it sounds cliche, but whatever — feed your soul and let you recharge that battery; whether it's being home or doing something by yourself or making that Target run by yourself or being able to run to the mall or doing whatever. Going for a run. Going to the gym. I think as moms, taking that mental load off for a minute is so important because your kids will come right in and walk right past your husband and say, “Mommy, can I have a snack?” (Yep.) What point in my 43-year-old, master's-level educated, licensed therapist did I become snack bitch for the world? <laughing> Like, (I love it!) is this all I signed up for? Jen (00:23:25) - Yes. Or the finder of all things! I'm supposed to know where everything in the house is located. Everything. At all times. Devin (00:23:34) - Sometimes for dinner — “Listen, kids, we're not new to this, okay? It's going to be nuggets and mac and cheese, most likely.” Shannon (00:23:40) - Amen. That's what we had for dinner last night. Devin (00:23:44) - Because that's the only thing you guys will eat. So…. Jen (00:23:47) - Yeah. Why? Why bother making dinner when the only thing they want to eat anyways? Chicken nuggets, mac and cheese. I'm gonna throw a grilled cheese in there every once in a while. But that's the extent; “You're going to complain either way.” Devin (00:23:55) - But think it's a very ‘let's stop kidding ourselves’ mentality right? Like, why make it complicated? If your 18-year-old's not going to eat salmon and rice, it's probably not going to happen. If they are, congratu*****lations. But, I mean <laughing> It's not happening and that has to be okay. You have to be okay with it. Let it go. Move on. Let your kids eat. If the doctor says they’re healthy? Okay. (Exactly.) (Yeah.) Shannon (00:23:47) - Well, thank you so much, Devin, for being here. It’s so nice to meet you. And for all of our listeners out there, please, if you have any questions, suggestions or feedback, email us at MyrtleMomsWithMargs@VisitMyrtleBeach.com. That's MyrtleMomsWithMargs@VisitMyrtleBeach.com. We would love to hear from you. Jen (00:23:47) - Yes. And we want those five-star ratings, guys. So please log on. We've had several reviews come in recently. We would like to see more. You guys keep us going from an encouragement standpoint and seeing it in written form really motivates us. Shannon (00:24:52) - And is that kind of becoming our new margarita? Jen (00:24:53) - Yeah. (Yeah.) So give us those five stars and leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. Cheers! (Cheers!) Woman (Myrtle Beach) (00:25:06) - Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, is The Beach. Here, you're free to be your best self because Myrtle Beach is 60 miles made for you. You belong at The Beach. Woman (Beach Easy) (00:25:21) - Beach. Easy.