Erin: What is responsible tourism?

Here on alpaca my bags, we've been exploring this question for years,

looking for tangible ways that we can be more responsible travelers.

Sure, we can cut down on how much we fly and book small in

independently owned hotels, but these are all individual actions.

To be totally honest, all of these individual actions

have started to weigh on me.

Sometimes I wonder if it's fair to put the pressure of these individual

actions on myself and on others when at the root, the real challenges in

responsible tourism are systemic.

Instead, I've been thinking a lot about what responsible travel would

look like if there was action as a collective, and this is a theme that

sparked the entire season ahead.

So I'm joined by my trustee, producer, as always, Kattie Laur along with

Nora Loreto and friend of the pod, Zach Schrader, to unpack the question.

Can responsible tourism really become a social movement and should

it, and what would it actually take to see systemic and structural

change within the travel sector?

Nora Loreto is a writer and activist based in Quebec City.

She's authored two books about organizing social movements and she's one of the

hosts of a podcast that is a personal favorite of mine, Sandy and Nora Talk

politics, and Zach Schrader is here.

If you've listened to Alpaca My Be Before then, you know, we try to invite him

on at every chance we get because not only is he a fellow travel lover, but he

always shares the most wonderful insights.

In this case, we knew Zach would bring a great perspective to this discussion from

his work as a psychotherapist, and he would help us to unpack the mental load

that goes into social movement organizing.

Welcome to apac, my Bags, the podcast about making travel better

for people and for the planet.

Season six is finally here and Alpaca pals, we have missed you and we can't

wait for you to listen to all the new episodes we've put together for you.

Kattie: If this is the first time that you've ever listened

to Alpaca My Bags, man, you have so many episodes to catch up on.

But make sure right now that you have hit the Follow button on your

favorite podcast app like Apple Podcast, Spotify, uh, because there

is so much more to come this season and we cannot wait for you to hear it.

Erin: If you wanna get in touch with us, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok

and Twitter at alpaca my bags pod, and

Kattie: you can also DM us anytime or email us.

All of our contact info is in the show notes.

Erin: Okay, so Kattie.

Yeah.

You know that literally for two, maybe three years, I was

begging you to watch White Lotus.

I was absolutely

Kattie: begging.

You obsessed.

So obsessed with the

Erin: show.

I love to claim that I found things before other people did.

Like this is something, this is part of my personality, I'm just gonna admit it.

It's not great, but it just is.

And I did find White Lotus before many people did.

I was actually flying home from Portugal in December, 2021.

And I remember this so perfectly because I was flying home with my friend Sheer,

and we were sitting on the plane together and we watched, we were so funny.

We were like watching Romcoms together.

So we would hit play at the same time.

Yes.

And we like watch it.

But then our flight got super delayed.

We were on this plane for like 12 hours.

I'm not kidding.

So we were running of things to watch.

So we came across this show and we were like, oh, this seems interesting.

Um, so we start to watch it and it was season one.

We were trapped on this plane for so, so long that I literally watched the

entire season one in that one sitting.

I mean, how could you not?

But I've since watched season one, I think like three times, maybe four times.

I watched it with you.

I watched it with my parents, I watched it with Lucas.

I just make everyone watch it cuz I just, I loved it so much.

Okay, so I finally got you to watch it, but I think there might be people

listening who haven't seen White Lotus.

How would you describe it?

Like what would you say the show is

Kattie: about?

It is about first and foremost tourists.

In a specific place, all of like the chaotic and hilarious and

innately human dynamics that go on within these touristy places.

And, sorry, it's not just about tourists, it's also about the people who

work behind the scenes within tourism destinations, specifically resorts.

I would say this show is takes, it takes place on a resort, and then chaos ensues.

Erin: And, okay, so people debated this a lot because this is what happened.

I mean, I'm sure people noticed, but season two really blew up and I know

a lot of people watched season two first and then went back to season

one, and so I saw a lot of debates about which season was better and I

firmly feel like season one was better.

Kattie: I totally agree.

Okay.

Not to get in too much into like movie review side of things, but

like I think season two was a little slower in the beginning and

then really revs up at the end.

And Season one is just chaotic

Erin: through and through.

Season one was a good hook, like every episode.

Season two was a slow burn and it paid off for sure cuz the

ending of season two is wild.

Ah, I just, so was the ending

Kattie: of season one.

It

Erin: was, but I'll also argue like I think that season one is more firmly

about tourism, whereas season two was just a lot of the like interesting

themes that were in season one.

I was really hopeful that they would be part of season two and they weren't,

cuz season one like had a lot of themes of like wealth and colonialism

and class and it was about privilege and ignorance and I just felt like

season one captured that so well.

But season two wasn't so much about that, it was more like about sex.

Kattie: Also, I'm just gonna ask, is there a spoiler alert in effect

for this conversation at this point?

Cuz at this point I feel like everyone in the travel industry

has, should have watched it at this

Erin: point.

I think we should not.

Spoiler.

Kattie: This is what Erin said to me.

Basically what you just said now is basically like, I need you

to watch the show, but I'm not gonna tell you anything about it.

Yeah.

Cause you can't, you can't

Erin: say anything.

It gives away too

Kattie: much.

Like if you're into this podcast and you haven't watched White

Lotus yet, this is your sign.

Erin: So season one took place in Hawaii.

Season two.

Mm-hmm.

Took place in.

Sicily and they just announced that there is going to be a season three.

And do you know where it's taking place?

No, I don't.

What's your guess?

Kattie: I'm guessing like Thailand.

Nora: Yeah.

Erin: Is it?

Yeah.

Oh my God.

Actually it makes sense that you guess that cuz they, I remember reading cuz

I was following really closely for season two cuz I was so invested in

the show and before season two came out there was a lot of talk about Thailand.

Mm-hmm.

And it just makes so much sense for it to happen in Thailand.

So I'm, it has to happen

Kattie: in Thailand and there's always.

A death in every season and you find out that there's a death at the very

beginning of the season and then at the end you find out like who it is,

how it happened and all that stuff.

So it's kind of a who done it in a kind of way, but listen, isn't it Thailand

where those, uh, big rivers are where people go rafting and get like swept away

by like jumping into big rivers and stuff

Erin: like that.

I know that from personal experience in Lao.

Yes.

I mean it probably happens in Thailand as well.

I mean, I was gonna say, there's a lot of themes you could delve

into in Thailand about sex tourism.

Oh yeah.

Which actually gets touched on in season two.

Um, but season three would be a different dynamic to talk about

that because it's like a very.

There's definitely like a problematic aspect to sex tourism in Thailand.

Mm-hmm.

So I think that could be an interesting theme to weave in.

We'll see what Mike White does.

Ugh.

We've really just like spent 10 minutes advertising Mike White and

his HBO show, so You're welcome, Mike.

You're welcome.

Hbo, do you wanna sponsor this podcast?

Kattie: Okay.

But also one of the most interesting things about White Lotus was that you

and I had talked a bunch about how it was likely gonna spark some travel trends.

Um, definitely.

So I'm thought like, what do you think Erin?

Like, has it sparked travel trends?

Are you seeing anything like this at this

Erin: point?

Yeah.

So as soon as season two was released and the hype started, like

as soon as I started seeing white lotus memes on TikTok, I was like,

Sicily, Sicily gonna be bombarded.

And I mean, just from like a simple Google search, there's already

articles saying that web searches for travel to Sicily have gone up

50% since the show was released.

Oh my gosh.

So it's the first summer since season two came out.

So I guess like, time will tell, but I think it's pretty, it's

pretty sure that like Sicily is gonna see a huge boost in tourism.

And I don't know, you know, Luke and I like have a personal connection to Sicily.

His family is from there.

We've spent a lot of time there with his family.

Sicily has a special place in our hearts and we feel a bit conflicted

about this because like, I'm sure the government was probably involved

in some way in the making of the show cuz usually there's kickbacks.

That's what I was wondering for destinations that host productions

like this, so they probably had some form of heads up.

I guess the question is like how much preparation time has there

been for like local communities in Sicily to really prepare for this

so that they can benefit from this?

Sicily can benefit from tourism.

There is a lot of poverty in Sicily and like tourism is one way to counter that.

I just worry that like, This show is gonna create such a sudden uptick

in tourism that it won't be done in a sustainable way or in a way that

like really benefits the people.

It should.

Even in the time that like I've been going to Sicily, I've seen like

Palermo change and evolve as it's become a more popular destination.

But I think it started shifting because Sicily is cheaper to travel

to than other parts of Italy and that's because the economy in the

south of Italy isn't as strong.

But yeah, people are catching onto this.

I think like in general, we're gonna see tourists like traveling further

south because of the show, but also because it's more affordable.

And also just cuz like Northern Italy is so packed now and people,

tourists don't really want that.

And going south is basically the only way to experience that.

Every time I've been in Sicily, most of the people we meet are

Italians from other parts of Italy that come south for the summer.

And it's funny because often they do it because they can't

vacation in their own communities because there's too many tourists.

So it's kind of sad because like now Sicily is probably gonna become

overwhelmed and, uh, It won't be that little escape that it used to be.

I mean, honestly, I hate using this language, but it used

to be like a bit of a secret.

Mm-hmm.

It's gonna change now

Kattie: until season three comes out and then everybody's going to Thailand.

Erin: Everyone was already going to Thailand.

So I'll start with you, Nora.

Your book and respective podcast take Back the Fight is ultimately what inspired

this episode, particularly for Katie.

So we wanted to start by asking you what got you into activism

and social movement organizing?

I

Nora: have always been an activist.

Um, I, it's just something that has been very much a part of my life.

I didn't come from a particularly political family though.

My, my, my parents did find themselves on strike when I was a kid, and so that kind

of radicalized me in a very profound way.

But I've, I've always been who I am, really.

And when you start to realize how power works within society,

then you can't turn it off.

I guess the, the radicalizing moment for me, um, was, so I grew up in a

small town in southern Ontario and there was a abandoned Y M C a camp

in the woods, which is as spooky and amazing as you could imagine it is.

And so that was my hangout.

Um, when I was a kid, we would hang out in the woods at this very

freaky camp until it was sold to developers and now it's houses.

So nothing quite radicalizes a kid of the greater Toronto, uh, region

than watching your most beloved space become, become a million houses.

Erin: I relate to this.

I grew up in Ottawa, in the suburbs.

The forest that I played in as a child became houses.

And to follow up, because we are a travel podcast, I wanted to

ask, could you tell us a bit about your relationship with travel?

Nora: Yes.

Um, well, right now I'm only traveling for work, but that does mean that I

get to see a lot of Canada, a lot.

So I'm on the road more than most people.

And I love it.

I'm, I'm very, very lucky to be able to do that kind of work.

But I, I was talking to a friend of mine who, uh, was reminiscing about

the time she went to Rome when she was in high school, and she's almost

50 and has not yet gone back to Rome.

And was just like, her face changed when she talked about

needing to go back to Europe.

And I was like, Yeah, it's so funny, like as someone that travels every

other week, basically, traveling for fun isn't at all on my radar.

Oh, it's just not.

I'm just too, um, connected to having to travel for, for work.

So I'm like an expert in airports.

I'm an expert in planes.

I'm an expert in dealing with turbulence.

My first turbulence freakout was flying Toronto to Shanghai.

I do not recommend that.

Erin: Okay, Zach, welcome back.

Yes, thanks.

Happy to have you.

Every

Zac: season, every season I'm happy to be.

Yes.

Erin: So we have a big life update to talk about.

You recently finished your studies and started practicing

as a registered therapist.

I have,

Zac: yes.

I made the pivot.

Erin: Congrats.

Thank you.

So tell us about how it's felt to start your practice.

Zac: Yeah, it, uh, it's been really amazing.

It's, it's a combination of a lot of scary decisions and a lot of work and

things are actually going really well.

I do in-person therapy here in Toronto and I can kind of

do virtual all over the place.

So I, I consider it kind of a privilege because I get to interact

with a lot of really incredible people from all over the place.

You know, navigating really tricky stuff and, and I get to help queer

people, which is really important to me.

And so, On one hand, it's really rewarding and wonderful, but on the other hand,

it's, um, kind of shown me the degree to which our really dysfunctional social

systems impact people really poorly.

And that's totally a conversation for another day too.

Erin: Okay.

And we've talked about this before, but just in case our apo pals haven't heard

you on the show before, tell us a bit about your relationship with travel.

Yeah,

Zac: I mean, I grew up in a family that was not really big on travel.

Like, you know, we faced a lot of like socioeconomic kind of barriers

that prevented us from doing a lot.

So I always looked at it as something really decadent.

I mean, I grew up close to the border, so we'd go to the US sometimes, but.

Aside from that, my first real international trip was when I

was in grade 10 and I went to Romania on a Catholic school trip.

Don't, don't ask.

It was very Catholic.

Um, uh, mission trippy, all that stuff.

Um, but it sh it shell shocked me.

Given all this, I really find it one of the most humbling experiences

we can do when we do it right.

And I find it's a really, for me, at least, a huge source of, of

understanding and acceptance and empathy.

And then later on, as I kind of sifted through a lot of my experience

with travel, it showed me how it can be really negative too.

But I, I would say, like overall in my experiences travel, it, my

relationship with travel is that it's, it has been very healing for me.

It's been my greatest educator.

It's been pra like I said, a way to practice acceptance

and, and discomfort too.

And kinda helps me decenter myself in a lot of how I see the world, I guess.

So it's, it goes pretty deep for me.

Erin: So I'll just start by saying something I've been thinking about

a lot lately is individualism.

And I wanna say Nora, this is partly because I'm obsessed with your

show and this comes up often on it.

Um, but I've been thinking about it a lot in terms of the conversations that

we have about around responsible tourism.

So if I'm totally honest, over the last few years, especially in making

alpaca my bags, I've begun to feel a little uncomfortable with the terms

responsible travel and sustainable travel.

And I think that's because I find that a lot of the focus when we use these terms

is on individuals and their individual actions and their individual choices.

I see tips about how a traveler should reduce their flying

or use zero waste products.

And to be totally fair, like I'm fully guilty of talking about these

things and doing these things myself, um, because I do think there is a

place for these tips and for these discussions about these things.

I guess my fear is that we sometimes frame, or that these suggestions

sometimes frame the responsibility a bit too much on the individual

and personal responsibility.

And I worry that this isn't the route to creating tangible change.

So yeah, I feel like the conversation needs to shift maybe towards more

government and corporate responsibility and that we should maybe be talking

more about collective action.

Zach, what's your take on the way that the terms responsible

and sustainable tourism are used?

Would you say that they conjure up what I've described as mainly actions

that individuals should apparently be taking to reduce their impact?

Or do you feel like they do point a little bit towards collective action?

I

Zac: think I've been, I think I've been on this podcast

enough that I can quote myself.

Yes, please

Erin: do.

We can pull

Zac: up the past tape.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Uh, and so I'm gonna quote myself that, uh, uh, the world

is not your frigging oyster.

Yeah.

Uh, and I, and I think, I think travel's marketed to us like, like an individual.

Uh, endeavor.

I guess logically it makes like capitalistic sense that kind of

mitigating that negative impact of travel is our responsibility too.

And I think that that's kind of sad because in both cases the, these

huge travel conglomerates win.

I was doing some research, obviously Erin, you know, I do research before we chat.

Um, I was doing some research actually, and in 21, the CEOs of the, of the

USA's, 10 largest airlines who were all white dudes, obviously banked 53

million plus in total compensation.

They went either way.

I think when we think this way, when we think super individualistically,

I think a, a rethink of why we travel in the first place is important.

Like, in my own mind, I always remind myself that when I travel, even when

it's solo, it's never actually alone.

It's actu I'm actually not just an individual doing it.

Like I I'm coming from and, and going to communities and when I travel and I only

get there with the help of the people who.

Work for the means of travel that I'm using.

It's not individual in the first place to me, and I think pretty much all

of what we do is not individual, so, so part of me wants to start there.

Like when I look at it this way, travel just is sustainable and

responsible and we're doing it wrong.

Nora: Yeah.

Like, so I'm gonna come at this as someone that lives in a tourist city.

I'm from Ontario, but I live in Quebec City.

Travel.

On a very philosophical level, it is individualistic because we are

in our heads, we're by ourselves.

Even if we're on a bus tour, like you're still like, Oh my God.

Oh my God.

This food, oh my God, the signs, oh my God.

You know, like, like your mind is being constantly blown.

So it's very hard to feel part of a community because you don't know if your

mind's blowing in the same way, but you actually are part of a class, A class.

I mean like a group of people.

You are part of a tourist class, like you are the people that show up at this town

or this city, and there are all these services that are oriented towards you.

Like they might be festivals, they might be tourist shuttles, they might

be different hotels or whatever.

And that is the group of people, the class to which you belong, even though

the people, that class represents tons of different kinds of people from

tons of different places all over the world with tons of different means

and tons of different reasons for showing up wherever you showed up.

When you look at the way that a city accommodates tourists at the expense

of accommodating the people that live in that city, then you can start to

see, oh wait, now we've, now actually we can look at these collective

things and, and you no longer are culpable in being a tourist because.

Our cities all want tourists.

They all want people to show up, spend and leave.

They all want people to fall in love with the language, fall

in love with the baguettes.

In the case of, of Quebec City.

And we live here knowing that, you know, you might come across someone

who's from anywhere, but when the pandemic shut everything down and all

of a sudden the tour buses stopped and the the festival stopped, and all the

things that attracted tourists stop.

You start going, wait a minute, like, I, as someone that lives on a principal

street here, I have to give up like clean air to accommodate the hundreds

and hundreds of tour buses that pass by my front door every single day.

You know, I have to live with tourists gawking at me shaking out my carpet as

it drives by on the double decker bus.

And so then I, then it's very interesting cuz then it's like, okay,

well then what are we demanding as citizens for our own infrastructure,

for our own access to our own city?

You know, I took my kids down to the Duffin terrace, which

is like the boardwalk, which is the, you know, the iconic upper

town boardwalk in Quebec City.

It was a beautiful toboggan run and.

I had to pay, I was like the hell.

But this is obviously for tourists.

So there's, there's kind of understanding what the local condition is.

And one of the best examples of this, I think is, is Airbnb.

You know, I live again, my next door neighbor is an Airbnb.

I hear suitcases every single night.

It drives me up the wall.

I cannot stand it, I can't meet them.

But I also know the owner of the space who lives right above can't

rent it out because it's a basement apartment and he's gonna make 80 bucks

a night versus 700 bucks a month.

I mean, I can be mad at him.

Uh, or I be mad at the city for not regulating it.

I can be mad at the province for, um, for not regulating it.

So it is about deconstructing these, the, the very natural instincts of

individualism when we're on the road, when we're in our heads, when we're

flying and we're freaking out because, you know, The atmosphere does something

to our tears and we wanna cry more and understand that Actually, no, no.

There are forces at play here that we really need to target, whether it's the

CEO of airline companies, whether it's Airbnb, whether it's Uber, or are there

tourist services that actually we all can benefit from, like public toilets, right?

Erin: And like sometimes I guess it's just easier to blame the individual in front of

you versus the actual systemic things that led that individual to be in front of you.

Okay, so on your podcast you often emphasize community over individualism

when it comes to making change.

I wanted to ask if you could share an example of how big of

an impact communities can have when they do work together.

Nora: I mean, every, everything that doesn't suck in society.

Literally every single thing that doesn't suck that we think is great,

that we love to enjoy is because people got together and demanded.

That it was there.

Nothing was given to us out of the benevolence of the heart of a

politician, they don't have them.

And, uh, or out of the, the, the heart of a, of a ceo, they

don't have them either, right?

And so, um, everything from public transit that works to good city infrastructure.

I mean, hell, like even our drinking water infrastructure in Canada,

uh, I mean, if we have it, um, but that was through public pressure.

And the places that don't have it is because there's

not enough public pressure.

There's not enough action forcing governments to, to

actually, you know, make change.

But every single thing from maternity leave to the minimum wage, to workplace

health and safety, to seat belts, to like all of this stuff was because of people

getting together and taking action.

The problem that we experienced today is that there's so little memory of that

and people don't know where to start.

And so there's a generalized desire to do something and then a lot of like.

Eh, now what?

And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that, um, that are all

out of the hands of individuals.

And I mean, and then of course, social media has also really damaged it as well.

Erin: Okay.

So Zach, what would radical organizing around responsible

tourism look like to you?

Zac: I, I might be repeating myself again, but I, I think that, I think that a lot

of the, a lot of the change we need to see in travel spaces are the changes

we need to see in the world anyways.

Radical organizing in terms of travel, I think a means connecting

with people who feel similarly and d developing that voice that Nora just

talked about, to demand the change.

It can't just happen from, like, these organizations are telling

us this experience is good for us, and that's how we kind of organize.

Uh, it ha I think it has to come from, from, you know, people who typically

are typically aren't centered in these discussions to develop communities

around that for first and foremost.

Erin: Yeah.

And to go back to what I started the segment talking about the small individual

things that people are starting to do in this quest for more responsible tourism.

I wanna think about where the place for those discussions is.

Because some people might argue that before creating a community,

people need to make an individual choice within themselves to

actually be committed to change.

And that's where I sometimes think, okay, like it is worth talking

about and being conscious of how much you fly or how you fly.

Because that can lead a person to the mindset where they think more

about their impact as a tourist and down the road that could lead to

even bigger actions like collective action or government involvement.

Nora: Yeah, I, I think that the problem is that everything is so

individualistic and so that really is the only message that people get.

You know, if you ask someone on the street, what's the biggest

polluter, they're probably gonna say travel and flying.

Right?

Whereas actually the answer is fashion fashion's the

biggest polluter in the world.

And then you say that it's fashion, and then they're like, okay, now what?

Right.

Like, like there's, there's, there's just no path to us desiring change

that, you know, affects change.

Right.

I think that we are far too in the mindset that people just aren't aware enough

of things being bad, and once they're aware of enough, they'll take action.

And it's like, that's, that's not how this works.

Actually.

If that radicalized people on its own massively oppressive

regimes would've been toppled.

Instead, people, people go into survival mode.

They, they, they focus on things they can control, obviously, and they, they don't

necessarily look to then change anything cuz things seem so impossible to change.

Too big for them to change.

They're not smart enough to change it.

They don't know the right people.

They don't know where to start.

So, I mean, I think awareness is great.

It's fine.

We can talk about awareness.

Education is super important, but there is such a deficit between, okay, so planes

pollute and how do we force the federal government to nationalize Air Canada?

You know, like the gulf between those two things is enormous.

And we also don't really have like a sensible discussion about these

things because we easily could live in a world where tourism is fine, it's

sustainable, where flying is sustainable because people aren't flying, uh,

Montreal, Toronto every week, right?

But, but people fly Montreal, Toronto all the time.

Why?

Because it's impossible to do it on the train cuz the train is unreliable and it's

expensive and it's slow, blah, blah, blah.

Right?

You know, then, then the question becomes not so much the education

piece or the, the analysis piece, but okay, so what do we do about it?

It's like, okay, so then let's talk about what pressure

points we have within society.

If we're talking about tourism, this is an industry that is largely non-unionized.

So that's one place to start.

It's an industry that is exploitative, um, that relies on minimum wage or low wage,

uh, workers that so, so if we're talking tourism, then it's like, Unionization

within a lot of these industries.

Where are you spending your money when you're, when you're traveling?

Are there any, are there any progressive groups doing kind of good work that you

can support, that you can get involved in?

You know, and, and it could be small stuff too, you know, like I, there are

people that own hostels that are cool.

Like, is that a place that you can start actually building like an interesting

tourism relationship where people, you know, you're not gonna see them every

month or every year, or even ever, ever again, but maybe it is a way that

when they get here, they know that there's certain things that they can do.

There's certain protests they can check out.

There's certain movements that they can get involved in.

If they're here for a week or here for two weeks, uh, there's certain places

they can volunteer or there's certain people that they can help clothe

and feed and do interesting stuff.

You know, there is ways to do it, but the problem is it's all been so

commercialized and if we're doing it for profit, then it's never, ever,

ever going to, to, to be, to be good.

Right.

Erin: Yeah.

It's interesting because tourism just touches so many other social issues.

Um, for example, talking about flights between Montreal and Toronto.

We recently had a discussion with Paris Marks where we talked with

them about this, and we said, this isn't just a tourism problem.

This is actually an issue of accessible transport for Canadians.

So something that Katie and I have found is that we feel worried sometimes calling

ourselves a responsible travel podcast.

So just to explain, the reason we landed on this term is because we didn't know

what else to call ourselves or how to describe what this show is about.

And part of it is like, it sucks, but it's about making the show searchable.

We want people to be able to find the show, and since responsible tourism

is something that people do search for, that's just what we landed on.

But we worry about it because A, we're imperfect, we're not authorities

in this, and we're just out here trying to learn and do better.

Um, so something we've noticed happens when we talk about responsible tourism

and related issues, particularly on social media, is that it

creates tension in communication.

For example, last season of the podcast, Katie and I mentioned how we started

to notice that when we bring up topics that highlight injustice in the travel

space, like password, privilege, and accessibility, some people have very

reactive and defensive responses.

We find this a lot when we post on Twitter and TikTok and Instagram, and

I'm sure this is a trend, um, across most issues that relate to social change.

So, Nora, could you tell us about if you've ever found this in your

own work and what you think is leading to these reactive responses?

Well,

Nora: I mean, people kind of know better than to argue with me.

I shouldn't have said that while you're drinking water.

Erin: I almost ruined my mic right now.

Nora: So, I mean, the people that disagree with me tend to be really trolling.

Like I don't tend to get into deep disagreements that are the kind of

disagreements that you have in real life.

But I think that like we have been sanitized from debate, and this is part

of what social media has done to us.

Cuz social media has created one kind of debate and it's very toxic.

Um, and it's hard to do well.

And it requires a high level of literacy.

And not just literacy, but skills that not everyone has because

not everyone has those skills.

Cause we all have different skills.

Um, and it's completely perverted how we understand our personal

interactions with one another.

And so I think that that then amplifies any disagreement we

have to then feel like it's like.

Uh, fatal disagreement or the worst thing in the world, or,

oh my God, I've been called out.

Oh my God, I'm gonna be canceled.

Right?

And it's like, I mean, I get that.

I, I get it all the time personally, but I, I think that if people are not

feeling comfortable with their choices, they'll project often, like, like they're

discomfort with like being even more pro their right to be a digital nomad.

I just saw an article today talking about how digital nomads

and the new colonizers, right.

Which is really interesting.

So it's like, so where do we have these debates and how do you have good debates?

I think that it always needs to go back to what are, what are people's

anxieties like, why do you feel like you're entitled to visit anywhere?

Right?

Or is that because you're an entitled white guy?

Is that because you just want to, and it's cool, like there's different reasons and

every reason is gonna have a different kind of reaction and discussion point.

But it's tough because you can't have these conversations online.

You literally can't because you don't know if the people criticizing

you literally profit from.

People flying everywhere.

And of course they're gonna be mad that you're like, oh, whoa,

don't use this travel agent.

And it's like, oh my God, I, I own that travel agency.

Like, so it can be really, really hard.

And so I think that if you're gonna engage in online debate, it's very

important to like, Kind of like, first of all, transcend the debate.

Who cares?

We don't know who these people are.

It doesn't affect you.

It's not gonna ruin your life.

And then try to figure out what it is that is driving people to be reluctant or

critical or, uh, skeptical of these things because maybe they have an interesting

point of view you didn't think of that you actually did think of, but you're talking

like this instead of like this, like right at each other, rather past each other.

I think it's just really ru rooted in the fact that we just don't

know how to debate anymore at all.

And then people are like, oh my God, why are you tagging me?

It's like, I'm just saying you're wrong.

Like, relax, like you think I'm wrong.

It's.

Fine.

Erin: Like, it's so frustrating because I find that the online

space can be really amazing.

We have lots of people that have like reached out to us and said,

I saw your content online and you changed my mind about something.

But then you always get those people in your comments or in

your dms that just wanna argue.

So, Zack, from your perspective as a therapist, how could we navigate

communicating about sensitive issues?

And not just in online spaces, but in our day-to-day engaging with people we

know, with friends, family, colleagues.

Let's say some friends invited me to Hawaii.

How could I explain in a gentle way that I don't feel comfortable traveling

there at this particular moment?

And just for anyone who isn't aware, I personally wouldn't choose to travel

to Hawaii right now because locals are actively asking tourists not to come.

Um, because they're currently battling a water crisis among other issues.

So yeah.

Zach, how would I approach this conversation with someone?

Zac: A lot of us have a fear of getting branded as judgmental, uh,

social justice warrior ish types.

When we point out like negative, like measurable impacts of.

These things that we do.

Right.

It's so hard because usually when we talk about mental health stuff, we need

to talk for hours about this before we can get into the meat, the meat of it.

But I, but I think, how much do you

Kattie: know about nonviolent communication?

Zac: Lots.

The way that I think might be a good idea to, to think of this is a, I think

a lot of us who have these conversations really care and are empathic at our core.

And, and I don't mean this pejoratively, but we, we can often

have people pleaser tendencies.

Some of us, I'm not saying everyone, and it's such a sub, like a double-edged sword

cuz we, while it means that we, and I'm including myself in this in a lot of ways,

um, we really care about others and big issues like this, um, it can be really

anxiety inducing to broach these topics with people who don't feel the same way.

Especially when it comes to like really personal decisions about like

where we travel, what we consume.

And so I think it's important that we kind of come up with

a strategy for how we do this.

How do we look after ourselves while we have to have these conversations?

In reality, if we look, try to look at it as objectively as possible, saying

it directly is better than dancing around it, believe it or not, right?

Like, like encouraging yourself to be okay with that.

Discomfort is okay.

Dancing around it actually draws it out and makes it harder on you.

So saying it directly is better.

And often we work really hard to avoid discomfort, which is often transient.

It's, but it's the thing we focus on, right?

It's not the end product, but it's the thing that we're so concerned about.

And so sometimes doing some mental work around that by, you can even

talk to people about it who feel the same way as you, or talk to friends

who kind of are, are a part of this community, maybe that might be helpful.

But I think those are important things to think about.

And I think too, like, uh, having evidence.

To back up what we're saying, uh, and calling people in, in

private conversations like play into your empathy a little bit.

Like for some people maybe they don't know this, and it might be helpful

to have like an honest one-on-one discussion rather than making it

kind of a spectacle or something that you would leverage shame against.

Uh, and that takes a lot of work.

That's part of the work of being like an ally for example, is, is doing that

sort of one-on-one work with people.

Then there's, I mean there's lots of different types of people, but you know,

if we kind of look at the opposite side of this, like for people who are kind

of less people-pleasing, let's say, and a little bit more direct, they can also

experience a lot of conflict and, and could often, and these are, I suspect

a lot of people we see out in, on the internet and social media, they're all

about like calling out and shaming.

And I'm not saying this to like induce any shame towards anyone,

but we say we do see this play out a lot, at least in my experience,

in the social justice space, right?

We, we see call, calling out and stuff like that.

And I think it can turn.

People off to wanting to make an effort even.

And so I think that learning about how our behaviors and habits impact the

world, it requires like cultivation.

It's not an expectation that we have to meet right away.

It's a cultivation.

So sometimes thinking in terms of metaphors is helpful.

Like this one's really basic, but thinking of this as a seed that needs

to be planted and encouraged to grow.

And it can happen quickly.

It's not like it's gonna take a whole year.

Um, rather than just setting an expectation that

somebody needs to just meet.

And then of course there's lots of layers to this, like privilege and

access to education and all of that.

But, but I think that's an important part of it too.

And at least to me, you know, and I've learned this a lot as a queer

traveler in this world, that we need to make sure we're operating from

the knowledge of the, you know, lived experiences of people who experience the

brunt of this negative impact, right?

That has to inform how we do this.

So variety of ways to go about it.

But at the end of the day, I mean, we all have to kind of do the mental

gymnastics to, to make sure that the change happens that we wanna see happen.

And

Nora: if I could just jump in, I mean, it's also like, it doesn't

have to be that conflictual.

I mean, it depends if it's your parents being like, we're getting MI

remarried in Hawaii, and you're like, gosh, like, fuck, I have to go, right?

Yeah.

Um, it goes back to this question of individualism.

So it's like, oh, did you know that there's no water there?

And that they're asking us to not go and your friend's like, yeah, I don't care.

Like, oh, cool.

Okay.

That's super weird.

Have fun.

Right?

It's not their presence that's gonna.

That's gonna destroy things like they're part of, as we talked about systems and

structures, but then there's like, oh, um, you know what's, let's go somewhere else

instead, you know, Cuba, like there's, Cuba's got a lot of great beaches.

Like there's a reason to not visit every country and there's ways to

do it properly and there's ways that you can do it very poorly.

And so you can always suggest other options.

You could always refuse and lead by example.

Um, you could suggest that this person, um, looks for ways

to support local organizing.

Even if they have no choice, they've already paid for their

flight, they're going anyway.

It isn't about necessarily about conflict.

Right.

And I think that that's where people get their backs up.

Cuz it's like, sorry you, this is the trip of my lifetime.

I've never in my life been on a beach in the Pacific Ocean and you want me to

cancel like, That is conflict, right?

But it's more, you know, like, oh, your destination wedding to

the Dominican, I'd rather cheese grater my back, um, than go to that.

But I love you guys and I'm gonna buy a bunch of hangers for your new apartment.

You know, like there's, there's, there's ways that we don't have to be

roped into other people's decisions.

And one, like one thing that I, I'll mention this, it's a bit different, but

during the pandemic, at the start of the pandemic, my friend was saying she felt

such anger at one of her friends who had decided to, uh, take a, a writing

residency in another country and break all of these different rules to go to it.

And my friend rationally knew she shouldn't have been mad, but she was so

emotionally disappointed in her friend, in, in violating all these rules and

it's not safe and blah, blah, blah.

And she's telling me this and she's like, and she's also got chronic

illnesses and she might even die.

And I'm like, Like, and she's going on a trip of a lifestyle, like, who cares?

You know, you gotta let it go.

It's not about you.

If you wanted to do the same thing, like you could do it,

she's not breaking any laws.

You wouldn't be breaking any laws, you're not gonna do it because you have

different expectations and oh, you've got a kid and she doesn't have a kid.

Maybe that's actually what's going on here is like, who doesn't wanna

get away from her kids for a bit?

But that was a really interesting moment where it was like, It was more

projection, but she recognized that this was not a, a healthy emotion and

it still made her feel so, so bad.

And maybe I'll ask her about how she kind of ended up feeling about it now that her

friend's not dead and got this amazing writing experience and the pandemic's

still here and all this kind of stuff.

Right.

Zac: Well, you know, actually that that's, I don't know if you know this, but you

actually just articulated what's a really important branch of therapy as well,

which is making sure that the rational mind and the emotional mind kind of come

together in what they call the wise mind.

And I think that's what you said happened, right?

Is we have to balance both.

And oftentimes when we feel activated in situations, it's because we're

leaning one way or the other too much.

And it's not good for us a

Nora: hundred percent.

You don't have to, you don't have every single one of your friendships

doesn't need to be a battlefield.

And that's not how you change the world.

Right.

Your friends, unless you're friends with Justin Trudeau.

Uh, you really, and if you are friends with him, like, my God, let's talk.

But you know, we're, we're talking about deeply flawed humans who are trapped in

the same shitty web that we are trapped in with the same constraints and the

same desires to just go somewhere.

So I'll give you another example.

Another good friend of mine loves cruises.

And she knows my politics.

She knows that I'm probably like, Matt Cruise, cruise, cruise.

Shut up.

They're killing the ocean.

You're killing 900 whales every time you go.

They're disgusting.

What do you wanna do on these cruises?

And I don't even need to say to her like, anything, right?

I'm just like, oh, yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Because I do know enough about her life to know that she needs a cruise or something.

I mean, she would do very well to have a much more sustainable non cruise vacation.

She does not have the mental capacity to even test the waters on that.

She's tested the water on cruises and that's where she's going, right?

This is where alternatives are really useful.

If you do know of an alternative location with a really wonderful

experience, share that information.

An amazing destination that is com that, that is like fair

and sustainable and, and cool.

Like spread the knowledge around on that.

And remember that you fighting with your best friend over, uh, over the cruise is,

is not gonna hurt the cruise industry.

It's just gonna hurt your

Erin: friendship.

Yeah, that's such a good point.

And I love your suggestion about making alternatives cuz now I'm just

thinking about it and I realize that's something I did recently with some

friends of mine who told me that they had just gone on a resort trip.

Um, I had asked them if they went off the resort or on any excursions or

anything, and they said no, that they were kind of nervous to leave the resort.

And then they talked about how they'd be scared to travel in the way that Luke and

I do, which is usually like, Not resorts.

Um, but we told them we'd be happy to help them organize a trip to

go on privately, like to a locally owned hotel in a beachy destination.

And we were just saying like, we can help you have an experience that's similar

to a resort experience, um, but instead of like paying a resort, you'd just be

paying local folks for that experience.

And yeah, it ended up being a really nice conversation and they

were genuinely interested in it.

We even talked about like, let's just do it all together like the four of us go.

So all this to say, I think you're right, A lot of progress can probably be made

just through the power of suggestion.

Okay, so we've talked about individualism and responsible tourism.

We've talked a bit about community and discussing responsible travel.

Now I'm thinking we can get into how we can organize.

So Nora, so much systemic change needs to happen in so many different

places, like we've mentioned.

So for example, the tourism industry really needs to address

accessible air travel as well as its contributions to the climate crisis.

And then there's also the issue of addressing how to ensure tourism

dollars actually stay in the communities that they're being generated in.

So with this wide range of problems when it comes to responsible travel, where

in your mind would you say is the best place for an average person to start?

What can a person do to work towards a more responsible tourism

model when there's just so many issues to address within it?

Nora: Totally.

Okay.

There's a whole bunch of different options.

If you're a person who's like really into tourism, like you, you, you

travel, you're known for how much you travel, you're really, really into it.

I don't know of any progressive groups that bring together

self-described travelers.

So maybe in Canada there needs to be some sort of forum or round table or group

that just people can know each other, share tips, share, um, really awesome

destinations that you can support them and create a community around that.

Because I mean, I'm thinking of a, uh, one of my cousins who, uh,

worked for travel agent and was, is totally like this, a total travel

lover and is also an activist.

And I think like she would totally die to be part of a group like this.

Like that would be really cool.

So that's one option.

If you are.

Really dedicated to travel now.

I think that the individual choices, I think, are most useful when we do

travel because we can't change the laws of the places that we go to.

We probably shouldn't even try, cuz it'll just come off as being probably

super weird, especially if you're white.

And so it makes, makes sure that you're making really responsible

decisions, you know, like.

Like figure out what the Airbnb market is like in this, in the town or the city

you're going in and find out if it's actually destroying rental housing and if

that's the case, then find A, b and b or find other options that you can stay in.

What does tourism look like in the location that you are in?

Is tourism, are there indigenous communities that are trying to use

tourism as a way to attract people?

Raise money, create industries, like how do we support them and

how do we support people in Canada?

Staying in Canada?

Because like the notion that the only good vacation is a beach

somewhere is very destructive.

There are great places to travel all across Canada.

There are great places to do bike tourism and, and rolling, uh,

different kinds of rolling tourism.

There's great walking trails and if we're not looking at our own backyard,

then we cannot absolutely not change anything about the rest of the world.

Mm-hmm.

Erin: I love that philosophy of looking at what's around you before

you expand and then trying to address issues that are outside your own orbit.

I

Zac: mean, I think it comes from, uh, when we address the bigger

social problems at large as well, like considering it as not a silo.

And I think, you know, it can, it can start as, as, as early as high school.

I mean, something that's coming into my mind is, I don't know if

any of you took the class travel and tourism, I think it was like grade 11.

Nora: Yeah.

Yeah.

I did not take that, but we had it.

Zac: Um, and I, and I, I just, it makes me think of how, how we are

almost conditioned with messaging around travel from a young age.

Like I know for me it was considered something decadent when I was

younger and aspirational and.

In high school, it was very much pitched as like a way to make money,

be a travel agent and make a trip where you can make money, profit, profit.

Right.

And I think that part of the issue too, I mean Nora alluded to this

earlier, right, is as long as that kind of mentality exists, not a

lot of change is gonna happen.

I think that it's more than that.

Like it's aspirational, it's transformational, it's something

that we need to teach people about.

And maybe it starts there too.

And I know for me, I mean I've, I've got, um, a couple of trips coming up and, and

I'm, I'm paying particular attention to kind of what we've been talking about

here is finding communities of people who think the same way and wanna see

the same type of change happen and make travel something that drives that change.

And I think for me, that's where, that's where the organization starts.

I don't, I don't necessarily have my hands and all those cookie jars around

like raising a lot of hell with certain people or making a lot of noise.

I'll participate of course, but um, for me, that's where it starts is on that kind

of basic level, when you start planning.

Erin: I guess sometimes I worry though with this podcast, especially that

we're in a bit of an echo chamber, like it's pretty rare that people

disagree with ideas, opinions, or topics that we talk about on the show.

And sometimes I actually want people to disagree with us because I feel

like we need that to lead to really fruitful and constructive discussions.

I guess sometimes I think we could just learn even more if we

were being challenged a bit more.

But the, the

Nora: challenge comes in organizing in the actual work of what do we

do, what does this group look like?

When you talk with like broad strokes, common sense things, no one

is gonna be able to say, but I have the right to show up in Barcelona

and, you know, set things on fire.

It's like, okay, I guess.

Right.

No, like, I think though that these perspectives are very mainstream,

that any reasonable person holds them, even if they would vote completely

different ways or have different kinds of opinions on different issues.

Uh, a lot of common sense things get passed off as

being like left wing thinking.

Um, which it's not actually, it's just, it is just common sense.

But where the struggle happens is when you put those ideas into action, and that's

where people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Like, I, I'm not sure if that makes the most sense.

And, and then you find yourself not just debating the tactics.

But you are actually then debating the broader issues too.

Because often you need, you have to be on the same page, on the

broader issues for then the more minor issues to fall into place.

And so it is in those kinds of tactical discussions that you will have those

arguments and that you have to create space to do because that's where

you're like, okay, no, we're actually gonna, we're gonna totally back.

Like for example, qpi, the union that represents flight attendants, we are gonna

actually fight against fuel leaks, right?

Cuz they're, cuz their employees inhale a lot of fuel.

Right?

Or radiation from the sun.

That's another big workplace health and safety for flight attendants.

That's where you have these discussions and um, and sadly it

is not the podcast is the candy.

And then like the medicine is the actual organizing work.

Zac: I agree with that.

And Erin, I'm, I agree with what Nora said.

Erin, I'm gonna disagree with you, but not in an echo, chambery way.

I think, and, and I'm speaking for myself here, but I've learned

so much from listening to this podcast and other podcasts as well.

It's not about, it's, it's not always about organizing.

It's about kind of setting the infrastructure to understand what

you're doing before you do that.

While it might seem like a lot of people agree, I think that people.

Do a lot of necessary learning and that's important in all of this.

Erin: So I actually wanna circle back to something that's a little bit unrelated,

but I've just been thinking about it a lot and I think it's relevant here.

So I'm going back to the individual choices thing.

I've been thinking a lot lately, and Nora, you touched on this, about putting more

research into your travels ahead of time.

So for example, instead of an Airbnb book a hotel and look into who owns it,

do you think there's the possibility for larger scale disruption for

travelers being consumers to make choices that put pressure on these

industries to service that consumer more?

Um, so I guess what I'm saying is like more resources for consumers

to easily find this information.

If people stop using Airbnb and start making other choices, maybe we'll see more

of these alternative choices coming up.

That's, I think that's a

Nora: lot of theories of social change cuz that's how it happens.

And I would say that that is not how it happens.

Really.

Really?

Okay.

No, because there's no amount of individual individuals

saying, I'm not gonna use Airbnb that's gonna sync the platform.

I mean, the platform would say that that's how it works, but

that's, that's not how it works.

Yeah.

Knowing who owns what.

I mean, I, I, I've also planned conferences in different parts of

Canada and so part of that job is to make sure that I, like, I only use

United Hotels, they're really expensive.

And so that is not an option for people, most people who are just on vacation.

Right.

But if I have a $50,000 budget and I am bringing a hundred people

from across Canada, I'm definitely going to be making the decision to.

Only use unionized hotels.

That's what we do.

And the best part of that is you get to call the workers and

say, Hey, are you unionized?

And they sometimes are not.

And think they are.

And you get to have a political conversation with the workers themselves

and say, oh, well we can't be at your hotel because blah, blah, blah.

And did you know Sal?

Like, you know, then you have a political conversation with them when you're

organizing, you know, conferences.

The, what might be interesting is, is seeking out travel agents because

they're the ones that have more contact with spaces and can suggest

these kinds of locations, right?

So people who do use travel agents, and there's a huge segment of the population

that do use travel agents, um, who are, who are the ones that care about the

ownership, who are the ones that will avoid an Airbnb, who are the ones who

after years of being a travel agent have relationships in different parts

of the world with different owners of different, let's say smaller hotels

or hostels or something like that.

They'll be able to maybe have a bit more of a market shift, but,

but our individual choices aren't gonna change, uh, all that much.

They just can't

Zac: agree.

I think that is, Almost like a platitude to make us feel like that we're feel

like we're making a change and maybe not.

And, and so I, I agree with that.

I think that it, it's, it's, it's, it's about often about solidarity, right?

Finding solidarity with people who, you know, if you were in their shoes,

how would you wanna be treated?

How would you wanna be traveled too?

Right?

And I th I think that's really important.

I know for me, and I, I, I talk about this all the time, but I, I

have problems, for example, with the discourse that you shouldn't travel

to quote unquote homophobic countries, because there's still queer, there's

still queer people there who still need support and who, especially, especially,

you know, in resort centered areas that have been particularly hit by

British colonialism, where a lot of the quite homophobic legal legacy exists.

I think that instead of saying no, which is what a lot of people would

wanna tell us, it's going there and actually making an active decision to,

for example, travel to places where queer people are safe to work, for

example, that says volumes more than.

What the discourse often is about this stuff

Nora: and solidarity and, and, and solidarity building, right?

Because then you meet people, then you talk about struggle and you learn 100%.

Yeah.

And you maintain those contacts sometimes and you go back and

they might visit you, right?

Like this.

Zac: And that's what travel to me.

That's what travel does.

That's the thi that's the, that's the conduit in a lot of ways.

Erin: Okay.

So to wrap up, let's talk a little bit about wins in social

progress and social movements.

So I actually wanted to share something that my dad said to me a few years ago.

I was going through a period in my early twenties where I was extremely cynical

about the progress around gender issues.

And I was having a really hard time feeling any sense of positivity

about the state of things.

And I'll never forget this, my dad sat me down and said, you should try

to stay positive because it's really hard to see the results of a social

movement in the moment right away.

And he made a really good point.

He explained to me by going into the history of women's movements,

how progress happened over time.

But in those early moments, Um, those women didn't know what the

future would look like and maybe in those moments they too felt

like there was no change happening.

But now in retrospect, when we look back, we can see how much progress

was made during that period.

I think this idea is relevant here because I wanna talk a bit about what the future

of responsible tourism could look like.

Do we think we're on a positive path?

What would be some big wins?

Zac: It, the, when I, when I was thinking about this, I, it was hard for me

because I'm thinking, you know, within my own experience about travel and how

it's tricky because we all put a lot of effort into travel and work really hard

to make it as rewarding as possible and to make it feel like an achievement.

So when we're talking in this context, like having a good trip could easily be

considered like progress in a lot of ways.

Like, that's easy to do.

And so I think it's important to parse through that a little bit.

And for me, in my own world, progress is, Is when things like whiteness and

cis heteronormativity and colonialism are all decentered, which they're not

in the travel space, it, it really comes down to travelers being less selfish

in the way that they travel, right?

Like the world is an oyster that you don't own it, right?

Like it's, it's, and it's something that you have to keep alive and that

you have to tend to and that you can't exploit or use for profit.

That's where we hopefully start to see a lot of change, and I think

it does kind of take root in this solidarity we're talking about.

Nora: Yeah, I mean, I see the world, uh, changing in a very significant way in

the next two decades, and I think it's going to be more unstable and travel will

be more difficult and people will not be able to go to all corners of the world.

And I do think that people from all corners of the world should be able to

go to all corners of the world, right?

Like at the end of the day when we talk about travel, uh, we're talking about

borders and we're talking about countries and fake countries, you know, that, that

cut through communities and cut through ethnic groups and cut through languages.

I would like to see, uh, an overhaul of how we deal with visas because

like, you know, any, any, anyone that does international conferences

in this country, getting visas, uh, from many different parts of the

world that are poor is impossible.

And so, uh, speakers are just blocked.

They just can't come.

Participants cannot come.

I have a hard time honestly, untangling like I.

Travel and, and refugees and the flow of refugees and the flow of,

of people trying to find safety.

Uh, sometimes they, they'll, like refugees will, will travel as tourists

to be able to find other places to live.

Uh, and our entire immigration refugee system in this country

is totally racist in garbage.

And so I, I, I really hope that we can change that.

I, I would love to see the, the cruise industry destroyed.

Obviously.

I think that that has to happen.

And again, people thought, oh, if Covid is not gonna do it, nothing will.

And it's like, well, maybe it's the, the total extinction of whales will like, you

know, that that may be, that might do it.

And, you know, people having more consciousness about this stuff, I

think is really important and great.

And I think seasoned travelers do have a better consciousness of

this than like someone that only might get a trip once in a while.

And so that also means that the ignorance might be classed.

And so how do we make sure that poor people do have access to travel and

are not taking the cheapest trips?

They're not taking the trips to on the cruises because it's just the easiest and

it fits around, uh, a very tight vacation schedule that they only have like, you

know, once every two years or whatever.

So more vacation days.

We don't have enough in Canada.

There should be mandatory four weeks of vacation for every single worker at least.

And we need vacation pay.

So we need to be paid to be able to travel, right?

So there's a lot, a lot, a lot.

And as the world destabilizes, it will not stop the flow of people.

It might make it more dangerous, but it also will mean that there will be

even more incredible experiences that people have both coming to Canada and

leaving Canada with people that they might not be able to meet because of

borders closing and, and, and global instability, pandemics and this kind of

Erin: thing.

This is something I don't often see talked about, especially

with sustainable tourism.

The practice of sustainable tourism.

I'm doing air quotes and even being able to make sustainable travel

choices is a privilege in itself because often those sustainable

choices are the more expensive ones.

If you look at eco-tourism, like an eco-tourism hotel is often gonna be

more expensive than one that isn't, um, quoting itself as eco-friendly.

And so I think that's something that a lot of people should keep in mind as well.

Totally.

And

Nora: they don't have to be, you know, like the number of people who tell me

that they pick Airbnb cuz it's cheap and it's like, do you know how many bread and

breakfast there are in my neighborhood?

Like there is a ton and they're 80 bucks a night, 90 bucks.

And Airbnb's driven down their prices.

So you might as well go to the place that's set up with clean laundry, right?

Like rather than buddy you hope, you know, is empty the

trash and they serve breakfast.

That's what the bee means.

Erin: Okay.

Before we wrap up, we wanted to ask both of you for some

of your personal travel recos.

Um, so to start, we wanna hear where you both live, and then tell us your

favorite thing about that place.

So, Zach, to start with you, give us your favorite place to eat in Toronto.

Zac: Oh my God.

My fa favorite place to eat in Toronto.

Logo's Corner in Parkdale.

It's on the corner of Queen and Close.

It's a Momo shop.

Amazing story.

They make amazing food.

It's, uh, it's amazing.

Erin: And Nora, what about Quebec City?

Nora: Quebec City is a tourist town, as I say, so there's so much stuff

set up for, for, for, for folks here.

I would say if you're eating, don't eat in the old city anywhere.

I mean, unless you wanna pay an arm and a leg, you'll, and for mediocre

food, there are some exceptions, but I would not pay for food in the old city.

It's too, it's too touristy if you're looking for.

A great meal that is maybe a little expensive, but is very local as well.

I would go to Le Hobbit, which is on, uh, Rus Jean, which is one of

the streets that, uh, goes into the old city through the gates.

Um, Le Hobbit is a total standby in this town, and tourists

and locals alike love it.

Uh, the best restaurants require reservations, which is very

confusing for tourists and me.

Frankly, it's winter right now.

And so what I would suggest people check out would be to go to the plains

of Abraham and rent a pair of skis, uh, not too expensive, and you can rent

them by the hour or for half a day.

And there's free, uh, skiing all over the plains.

Erin: Okay.

I know I've said we're wrapping up like a zillion times, but this time it's true.

I promise you.

Um, okay, I'm gonna ask you both.

Where can we find you?

Zac: Yeah, I'm on, uh, Instagram, but it's z spelled z e d, underscore eCore, s e e.

So it's spelled Zack, z a c.

And you can find me on the Work in Progress Mental Health collective website.

Nora: You can find me wherever you get your internet.

Um, I'm on Twitter, I'm not on Instagram cuz my brain is is a Twitter brain.

And you can find my work kind of all over the place.

And you can check out my ck at just ck no Loretto or my website,

which really sucks., No loretto.ca

Erin: alpaca pals.

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Alpaca My bags is written and hosted by me, Erin Hynes, and

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