Rich Weinfeld

Wed, Dec 21, 2022 12:23PM 1:03:17 SUMMARY KEYWORDS boys, parents, school, special education, student, child, challenges, special ed, advocate, disability, support, reading, question, learning, assessment, area, education, girls, individual, called

00:02 All right. Rich, thank you so much for joining us today. I appreciate your time and looking forward to our conversation. 00:16 Thank you, Andy. And I really appreciate you giving me this opportunity to speak about one ofmy favorite and favorite topics that I'm most passionate about boys. 00:27 I love that. And I, before we jump into have you introduce yourself, I was taking my oldest son,we have three boys. He's a senior in high school taking this final exam today. And I mentioned to him that I was recording with you on the podcast, and the topic was helping boys succeed inschool. And I said, Do you have any questions? And he said, Hmm, it's a pretty interesting topic.So stamp of approval from a 17 year old. Yeah, that's 00:59 good. That's good. That is that aware of it? That's great. 01:03 So can you tell us a little bit more about your experience, who you are, specifically, how youhelp folks strategize in the world of special education? 01:14 Sure. I'll try to be brief. But it's hard to be brief when, when you're finishing your 48th year in education. So that's, I was just, I was just noting that the end of this week will be the end of my 48th year. So I I worked in Montgomery County Public Schools for 30 years, which I had many

y gyy y, ywonderful experiences. I taught elementary school, work most of my career with special education students. Every disability every age group, I worked a lot with kids with emotional challenges. I ran a school learning center that was a regional program for kids with disabilitieswho couldn't be programmed for in their own neighborhood schools, finished my career inMontgomery County as the director for twice exceptional kids, also called gTLD, gifted withlearning disabilities, but really encompasses many different disabilities, not just learningdisabilities. And then retired 18 years ago, and no, no idea of forming a business or anythinglike that just thought I wanted to keep helping parents to make sure their kids were gettingwhat they needed. And let it be known that I could be hired for advocacy work, and thefloodgates quickly opened, and I had more work than I could do. And fortunately, I kept havingnew people appear to me who were interested in working with me and were very qualified. And that was the birth of the Weinfeld Education Group, commonly known as wag for initials. And we have grown to be 15, special education consultants, who are incredible experts in everyarea of disability at every age group. We work all over Virginia, DC and Maryland. And now with the advent of virtual conferencing, such as we're doing today, we're working all over the country. So it's been an incredibly rewarding second career. We're very proud of wag and very grateful for the wonderful people I'm working with. 03:40 That's fantastic. And 48 years is something to be applauded for. So thank you all for all youhave done for the community and for our special education families and supporting them toaccess services that will benefit their academic outcomes and life outcomes. So let's start off and hone in. You have a book and it's called Helping boys succeed in school. And that really is our primary focus today is helping boys succeed in school. What specific challenges are boys facing in school right now? 04:16 Yeah, so I wrote the book helping boys succeed in school over 15 years ago, and it came out oflong term concern that I had had with the over identification of boys for special educationprograms, particularly programs for kids with emotional challenges, and knowledge that boyswere just not doing as well in our schools as girls. And in researching for that book uncoveredmany important statistics about how boys are falling behind and was able to make manysuggestions about ways that we could address this. And then, over the years, I've paid attention when new books have come out. And I want to really emphasize there's a new bookthat just came out of boys and men, written by Richard Reeves from the Brookings BrookingsInstitute. And it fresh off the press 2022. It's credibly well researched, great recommendations.And and I want to say that the things that I saw 15 years ago, are still very prevalent and evenhave gotten worse in many, many cases. And the solutions that he offers are very similar to solutions that I've offered over the years. So I was very glad to see the new research supportingwhat what we had found years ago, was now glad to see that boys are still still in as much,much of a problem area as they are. 06:09 And you share some of those statistics that are out there in terms of the impact for boys. Yeah.

06:18 There, there are so many different measures that show that our boys are not keeping up inschool and making the progress that they should be. Let me start by giving a couple ofdisclaimers that are always important that I'm sure these things are popping into lots of yourviewers heads right now, first of all, this is not about boys versus girls, we we thankfully havepaid a lot of attention to our girls, and seen a lot of progress, we still have a long way to go.We're not through with helping girls and doing all the things that we know are making animpact there. So as Richard Reeves says, We can hold two thoughts in our mind at the sametime, we can still focus on our girls and also focus on our boys. The other disclaimer is, of course, all boys are not the same. All girls are not the same. There's lots of differences, lots of individual differences. The we will be talking today very much in generalities but generalitiesproven by research and statistics. So to address your question, boys are not doing as well inschool, when we look at measures of reading and writing progress. Boys are not doing as wellin school at participating in advanced classes gifted education, boys are not graduating highschool at the at the same rate as their female counterparts. They're not enrolling and got getting college with the same at the same level. They're not completing college, they're not going on to graduate degrees. They're having more mental health issues. They I was justreading in Richard Reeves book last night three to one is the statistic statistic of how manymore boys are committing suicide and girls and coming out of the pandemic. Everyone is inwhat colleague of mine called period of post traumatic stress disorder, but it's really hitting ourboys very hard. And and so I can go on and on about the statistics. And I want to say they apply to every economic group. They apply to every racial and ethnic group. And they apply across the world and to different countries. So it's this phenomenon is happening everywhere. And last thing I'll say is that although it does apply, across the board, the boys who already were havingsignificant challenges, boys in poverty, black boys, Latina boys, those are the boys that are hitthe hardest by the problems that we'll talk about today. 09:16 First, I like that you clarify, this is not a boys versus girls, that we're just specifically looking atthis population of boys and talking through their needs and how we can better support as acommunity of professionals, colleagues, parents, to better support those outcomes. Why do you think boys? Why do you think their needs are not being met? 09:43 So it's a complicated question. I'll unpack some of the ideas that I think are most important andcertainly, there are other theories out there as well. I think it starts with what with when boysenter school Ah, there, there was a time that people as old as me can certainly remembermaybe even a little bit younger, were kindergarten was the truck corner and the building blackcorner and the art corner. And it was kind of a fun. But you know, kind of let's get ready for the learning that's going to come in a future years. Kindergarten is now a serious academic grade.And it's a grade where you start to learn to read and learn to write. Many of our boys, a high number of our boys are not ready for that developmentally. So they come into school and their first experiences with school are at best difficulties. And at worst failure, seeing that they reallylearning at a very early age, that school is not for them, that it's not a place where they're going to be successful. The school doesn't play to their needs for for movement. Experientiallearning, it's very focused on the reading, writing math, that These boys are not ready for thatthat's that's part of it, then throughout their school years, there is there is now much more ofan emphasis on reading and writing. And I saw this really begin with the mandated statetesting that came about starting in the 1980s. I think the testing is a good thing, because I think schools should be accountable. And we should know how our kids are progressing and how effective our schools are. But there's such a focus on reading and writing in the testingthat schools in order to show that they're performing well have gone to extraordinary lengths tomake sure students do well with reading and writing. So what happens now is there's moretime in the day devoted to teaching reading and writing, reading and writing now become partof virtually every subject during the day. So even if you're in math class, which used to be anarea where boys could really shine, you not only have to solve the problem, but you have towrite about how did you solve the problem. So math now is one more language arts class, butthat boys may not, while they might be strong in math may not be good in in the, in the writing part. Less, less, less parts of the day that are options for movement, recess, physical education,many school systems are cutting back on the time allotted to those things. So those are thingsthat for all kids, but I think, especially for our boys are really crucial to make them available forlearning. Again, subjects like it's been called shop or industrial arts, and now it's technologyeducation is is, is what it's most often called. Again, lots of reading and writing involves not justhands on, and again, the hands on experiential are where boys can shine and really developtheir skills, but but they're finding every period of the day has something to do with withreading and writing, which which may be a difficult area for them or not a preferred area.

13:37 Which leads me nicely into my question about boys that are identified or even not identifiedexperiencing learning needs and differences. What does that world look like? For them in school? As a student with a disability? 13:54 Yeah, so um, 13:57 again, very complex question and and I'll try to give a thoughtful answer to that. So boysabsolutely need help in the language arts areas, and sometimes that can be done effectivelyjust by the general ed instruction. And for many kids, many boys that works well. For other boys, it they need more more specialized instruction, smaller classrooms, they need evidencebased interventions that we know when when they are provided with provided in a way thatthey're intended to be provided certain number of times a day, I'm sorry, certain numbers oftimes a week, certain amount of time a day, that they are effective, often that only comesthrough special education so to to access that type of instruction for some boys who have beenresistant to the typical interventions we do for reading and writing is crucial. What, what I worryabout, and what I've seen happen for a lot of boys is they're struggling with their reading andwriting. So now they're starting to, to behave badly, they're starting to act out, be the classclown, it's better to get in trouble for being the bad boy than to be the dumb boy. And they'll they'll do anything to hide the fact that they really have have struggles with reading andwriting, including including acting out or, or showing bad behavior in one way or another. And so what happens then, in terms of special ed, we might, we might only see the behavior. And we might just look at the Boys and say, well, they really need a program for students withemotional challenges. And while there's nothing inherently wrong with programs or services forstudents with emotional challenges, because that certainly is what some boys and girls need, ifwe're not really seeing the root of the problem, which may be their struggles with reading andwriting, or and also maybe their, the fact that they don't fit well into the school structure, thenwe may be wrongly identifying them for special ed program, or special ed services that reallymissed the target of their their needs, which is to be taught in different ways to be taught howto improve in their academic deficits, but not necessarily to have the focus be just on theirbehavior or primarily on their behavior.

16:53 How can we ensure that we see our boys and even all of our students as learners versus justlooking at the outward behavior and then categorizing them based on that behavior? How canwe as professionals, as educators, take a look at that behavior and do better and a sense interms of really kind of sifting through? What is a result of the behavior? And what is, in fact,possibly a learning disability? Yeah. 17:30 I think it's, it's should start with us doing some real analysis of how are we teaching our boysyou know, both in my book, helping boys succeed in school, and then Richard Reeves, newbook of boys and men, and we talk about the structure of school and how boys are just not agood fit in many ways for that structure. And I, I spoke about that in some of your other questions. But, you know, we need more, we need more movement. We need to have more hands on experiential learning. We need to have more opportunities for boys to use their visualspatial strengths, if that's a strength area for them. We need more men teaching boys that is aproblem that in the 15 years between these two books that I keep alluding to, as it has gottenworse, we don't have, we don't have enough man, teachers, enough men role models for ourboys during the school day. So So an answer to your question about, you know, looking at Boysproblems, I think the first thing is we need to step back and say, Why? Why are these thingstrending so badly? And what can we do in a more systemic way to make changes? When wethink about the individual boy, though, today in third grade class, who is struggling withreading and writing and maybe starting to act out behaviorally, we really need to cometogether as a collaborative team, meaning school staff including teachers, counselor,psychologist, possibly speech pathologist, occupational therapist, along with parents and andand their experts and together 19:31 rich in one second, can you just back up like five seconds for some reason you froze? Oh, okay.Sorry. Um, start with collaborative team.

19:40 So we need to bring together a collaborative team at the school level to really look at this oneindividual student and, and that collaborative team should include special educators, generaleducators, psychologist, on speech pathologists, occupational therapists, guidance counselors,school administrators along with the parents and their experts. And the idea must be to all work together to identify what are the student's current functioning levels? Where, where arethey strong? Where do they have challenges. And then together, look at what are the evidencebased interventions we can bring to work on the challenges, while at the same time payingattention to the strengths and continuing to nurture the strengths? And I've seen many schools,do these meetings very effectively, be inclusive of parents work with the parents, experts fromoutside the school, and really make a difference in the individual boys? So you know, an answerto your question we have, we should be working both at the systemic level, looking for changeswe can make, that are going to benefit all kids, boys and girls. But also, we have to payattention to the students right now who are struggling, who are suffering and make sure wehave a good individualized plan for those students. 21:13 And I like how we went from this macro to micro because individuals that may be listening to usmay be thinking, What can I do today? In my building for my child, what can I do? And so youmentioned that collaborative team? Can you give me a personalized example of how a studenthas been referred to that collaborative team? And how have you seen it work? Really well? 21:43 Yeah, so. 21:46 So many, so many examples to draw on. But, you know, let me let me just say I, I often, andwe, as a group, mindful education group often get called into cases where a boy is struggling.And I'd say, a majority of our cases are about boys, we certainly serve girls as well. But majorityof our cases are boys and, and we do we review their child the child's records thoroughly, wespeak to all the folks in the school and outside of the school that might be involved. But one of the most important things we do is we go into the classroom, and we observe the child. And we may be in the instance, I'm thinking we might be called to get involved because this student'sbehavior has become become challenging in the classroom. And there's going to be a teammeeting to discuss what to do for this child and possibly whether or not to identify them ashaving an emotional challenge and give them services for that emotional challenge. Well, I can think of many examples, were sitting in that classroom room, I do see that boy misbehaving.But I noticed it's when they're asked to write something, or asked to read something, and atother times in in the observation time, they're not misbehaving. So what's going on, you know,with that specific time, and then what what are the challenges in that reading and or writingarea that that are causing, possibly causing this boy to misbehave at those times? So maybewe need more assessment. So then to, to your question, going to the team. And as special education consultants are advocates at at Wagh. One of our primary primary values is collaboration. So when we go into that team, we're not trying to blame or make the school people wrong, or why haven't you done this, but let's together look at this one child, and howthey're functioning right now and think, How can we help them? And we know there's goodpeople who who are on the, quote, other side of the table, and I don't even like to use that term anymore. Because it's really, it's really one table, that we're all at it together. But we know there's good people around and we were some of those good people when we worked for theschool system. And most of the most of the experts of wag did work in the public schools at some point. So it's back to the case when I would come to the case after my observation andsay, you know, when I observed this young man, I saw that the times that he was really actingout is when he was asked to read or to write, what information do we have about how how he's doing in those areas? Let's look together at it. Okay, so we see there was some testing a fewyears ago and things looked okay at that point, but that's a few years old. So let's, let's do Do some new testing, let's make sure we're getting very good assessment to really look deeply atmaybe Maybe he knows how to decode, put the letters and sounds together and say, say thoseletters, but maybe he can't read fluently. So now that his classmates and third graders arelearning to read really fluently, he's falling behind. And he knows he read slowly. And maybesome of his buddies laughed at him the last time he did read aloud, so let, let's just look moredeeply to gather to establish what what are his real levels of functioning in all areas that mightbe affected, including not only the behavior, but the reading and writing? And then then afterwe get that information, and we do the assessment, and then come, let's come back together,look at it together, and then think about what are the interventions he needs? And are theyinterventions that are available in general ed? Or does he need specialized instruction throughspecial ed to get those interventions?

26:06 What can educators and an IEP team contribute to really address the specific challenges avoida boy's face in school? 26:15 So 26:18 the special educators probably can't make the systemic changes that we're talking about. But what they what they can do, along with parents and the other experts in the meeting, is makesure that we're using evidence based intervention to address whatever the challenges are ofthe boy in question. We also, we also look at accommodations in every IEP meeting, and also inevery 504 meeting, what are the things that every teacher can put in place that are going tohelp this boy learn, and those often are very, relatively easy things that and that any teachercan do, we don't even need a special ed teacher to do them, such as, let's let this boy sit upfront. So they're close, close to the point of instruction, let's make sure that they can move notonly whenever they want to, but let's build in some movement breaks, so that it helps them toget out some of their excess energy and then be able to focus more. Let's make sure that theycan hear the information as well as read it because we know for one reason or another reading,it is not easy for them, maybe not motivating for them. Maybe there's a disability in that area.But whatever the reason is, let's let them hear the information, it doesn't always have to be about actually reading the information. When it comes to writing. Again, accommodations could include, if writing is not the specific goal of the lesson. Let's let them demonstrate their understanding and other ways that might be in line with their strengths. My own son when he was in school, was very interested in filmmaking. He, he was able to approach his teachers andsay, instead of writing that essay, and social studies class, can I demonstrate my understandingby doing a short film, and very often teachers in montgomery county allowed him to do that,and and that helped him to thrive. So all these things are accommodations that any generaleducation teacher can do, they can become part of a 504 plan or an IEP, or they can just become court have a good best practices plan in the classroom for a kid who's not identified ashaving a disability or needing special education.

28:50 Let me ask you, you mentioned evidence based intervention or instruction. And I've had parents say to me, you know, the school says they don't have the resources or staff to reallyimplement evidence based instruction support in terms of a pullout, kind of small group. What is your response to that? 29:14 Well, my thought is that's a terrible answer. Hopefully, I don't say that. I might say it sometimes. 29:24 We are charged by the federal law, by state laws by by just good educational practices atproviding what each student needs to access instruction. So if the student needs an evidence based intervention, we must find a way to provide it. And it is true. An individual school mightnot have that they might not have the resources, they might not have the training. But then the answer is we're going to get that or we're going to make sure Your child goes to a differentschool or a different program where that is available, because that's our responsibility as aschool system to make sure that child is making progress in school, succeeding in school. So it can never be about we as school acts don't have the resources or we don't have the training orwe don't have enough funds, or, you know, we don't typically do that, or we don't do that atthis age for kids. It's about what this individual child needs. And then we have to figure out how to provide that. 30:40 Can you give parents a pro tip on that, in terms of when that said to them? What's the pro tipresponse that a parent could give to say, pretty much unacceptable? Yeah, 30:55 I would say, my understanding of special education law and requirements is that if my child hasthe need for that intervention this school district has to find a way to provide that That's the need for that intervention, this school district has to find a way to provide that. That s, that's how I respond to that. And then if the school folks at the table still seem either, like they're in disagreement with that, or don't know what to do with that statement, which mightbe the case, then I would ask for the meeting to reconvene with somebody who has theknowledge from the school district and has the ability to commit resources from the schooldistrict, one of the one of the parts of the special ed law that is often not followed and notnoticed, is there supposed to be someone at every IEP meeting with the ability to commit theresources of the school system? That doesn't happen very often if a lot of local schools meet,and then they know what they have available? And they really don't know what is available orwhat they can commit outside of their schools. So so I don't blame them for that. That's, that's just the situation they're they're in. But then the answer is bring in a supervisor of specialeducation, bring in a reading specialist, bring in someone from the central office of the schooldistrict who knows about what exists all over the school district, and has the ability to commitresources and funds.

32:36 That is a golden. 32:37 Yeah, and let me say, you know, finally, along this topic is it is hard for parents to use that protip, you know, parents in these meetings, and often it's one parent, sometimes two, and itmight be six 810 school system, folks around the table. And it's intimidating. And there's an assumption from most parents at the school system, people know what they're saying to be true. And as a parent, and I've experienced this in meetings for for one of my own sons, as aparent, you don't even trust your judgment, because you, you love your kids so much, and youwant what's best for them, but you don't know if you're over emphasizing the problem or underemphasizing the problem. So that's where it really helps a parent to have a special ed expert or advocate with them. Who knows the law knows the school district knows what they can andcan't and shouldn't shouldn't be able to commit based on any specific question or problem that comes up. 33:51 100% 100% and I always liken to is that you're walking into a crowded room or a party and allof a sudden, the music stops, the voices stop and they turn and look at you as and that's thefeeling you get when you walk as a parent, when you walk into an IEP meeting, it's, you know,even if it's on Zoom, it's all the sudden it's quiet, people are looking at you and you're like yousaid one of one or one of two. And it can be very intimidating. And as a parent, you're leading from a place of fear and love. And so, you know, it's not just this one meaning for you. This is a lifetime of building the capacity of your baby to do the to be successful in the future education,employment and independence. And so it is hard. I do love that pro tip. But even so it's beneficial to have kind of a neutral person that's totally on your side that knows how to accesswhat they what that child needs. 34:47

34:47 Well said well said and I'll just say to the very last thing you said totally on your side. We we see ourselves as advocates for the children and so out. And I think that's an important distinction. So we will, we will, we're going to be straight with parents in terms of actually whatyou're asking for, doesn't seem to be reasonable, because he is reading at such and such alevel, which is acceptable, and, you know, understand why your concern, but that's but wereally at this point don't need to be asking for an evidence based intervention in the area fromthe school. So let's keep a watch on it. Let's agree with the school, we're going to do somemonitoring, and maybe try some other strategies. So but but again, we're laser focused on what is the child need at this time. And in fact, every time a parent calls us to engage us, I do all the intakes. And I always say, No, you can't hire us to get a specific outcome you can onlyhave to us to become an expert about your child. And then if you if you want us to, we willcome to meetings to advocate for that expert opinion to become a reality. 36:05 That's right, that's right, and just helping parents kind of prioritize what makes sense for theimmediate support for six months to a year to five years to kind of help because it can be veryoverwhelming of what to ask for, and, and what am I seeing in my child, versus what the schoolis seeing? And oftentimes, we're seeing the same things, but sometimes we're not. And so how to prioritize the needs of that individual child. So it really does come down to that specific child,and how are we going to be strategic and supporting that child to be successful? 36:41 Let me say that, you know, the school and parents may have a different view of how the child isfunctioning right now. So how do we bridge that gap? It's, first of all, it's crucial to bridge thatgap, we have to come to a common understanding of how the child is functioning in reading,writing, math, social skills, social emotional well being executive functioning. So if if we're in disagreement, then we need more information. And, you know, I just came out of a meetinglast week where the parents and I believe the child should be classified as a student withautism, high functioning autism, he says he's also gifted school system doesn't, doesn't see theautism or doesn't think it is to the point where it's a disability, so that we have differingviewpoints and information. So the answer is, in this case, we need a a independenteducational evaluation, which is going to be funded by the school district to try and clarify thisdispute we're having or disagreement we're having, and get a definitive answer. So so there's always There's always more questions we can ask, there's always more information we cangather. But it's crucial that we come to a joint understanding of who the child is, what theirstrengths and challenges are. 38:09 Absolutely. And that was an excellent segue, where do assessments start to come into play for boys? 38:16

So, um, gosh, assessments are so valuable for for understanding children and what theirstrengths and challenges are. And sometimes they're crucial. So when we see a student who's not making progress, or is making minimal progress, and we come together, and we, we, weshare all of our information, but we really need to have more information about why isn't thisboy making the progress that they should be making? At that point, we must have anassessment to look into the challenges. I've had experiences with my own two boys, one whowas not reading at the level that that he should be, and, and we needed to have an assessmentand we, we will be agreed, after some up and back discussion that the school would proceedwith an assessment. And then I had another boy who was doing okay, in school doing doingaverage work, there wasn't any specific school problem. But, um, my wife and I just wanted tounderstand what were his strengths? What were his challenges? Might there be some strengththat we should be further paying attention to and developing? Might there be an area ofchallenge that we're overlooking, so we paid for that assessment and that helped us to just geta good understanding of who he was and and then advocate for then proceeding to advocatefor him appropriately. 39:55 What is your take them on? Public is assessments through the public school system versus aprivate assessment or evaluation, as parents often ask, and I know they're asked you as well,what is the difference? What is What are the pros and cons? 40:14 Yeah, so I, I have actually a presentation that I do. So I'll give you the short version, which is to say that there are pros and cons. And there's not no one definitive answer there, you might,you might expect someone to me like me to say, oh, always get a private assessment. And I would not say that there are the pros to having the school do it. First of all, it's no cost to parents. Secondly, there are a lot of very talented school psychologists who can do a verythorough and in depth and accurate assessment. Third, the school system is more likely to accept the results of their own assessment. So so there's less less likely going to be a battle tosay whether the assessment results should be utilized and used for planning. So those are those are all the benefits. And then parents have a safeguard within that process, which is, ifthis if they've decided to trust the school psychologist and proceed with that, but they disagreewith the outcomes disagree with the assessment that is finally done, they can assert their rightwhich is legal right within the special ed law, they can assert their right to have the schoolsystem pay for a private evaluation. After that public evaluation is done. School system does not have to say yes to that. They can take the parents to a mediation or even a hearing to fightthe parents or request to do that. But in my experience, if there's good reasons to do it, schoolsystems, more often agreed to do that where it's needed. So those are all the pros for thepublic side, the pros for the private side may be more obvious that they're your yourhandpicking your assessor, you can shop around for the person that you think is really the best,when it comes to assessing your child's disability or suspected disability. You can look at possibly getting things done quicker than then you would with the school. If people haveavailability, which sadly, these days, people are so inundated that they don't have availability.But but but in a more normal time, you could you could also shop for that. You You are in control of the assessment, and when it's done privately, so you can look at the results and youcan share it or not share it with the school. I almost always recommend parents share it so that we can engage in this collaborative process of looking at that and deciding what to do. But if for some reason, you are not happy with the results, don't think they're accurate. Think they're too revealing about personal information about the family. You're in control of it. So those those are some of the pros on on the private side. Can you

43:31 help with a student? Let me try to figure out how to phrase this. How do we support boys indefining their own success? So if we are saying that boys are challenged in school, and thatthere's data backing this up in terms of their success rate, and whether it's systemic or at anindividual level? How can we help boys 43:58 change their experience of that? So what I'm hearing Wendy and 44:05 correct me if I'm wrong, but it's it's you're talking about helping boys to have expectations fortheir own success that might be defined differently than parents or school system or otherother influences are saying should be the area for success today. Did they get that? Yes, 44:28 that's right. That's right. 44:30 So that's a great question. 44:33 It's a complicated one. 44:34 Yeah. I think, you know, just like your son today said, Well, that's interesting when you told himthat you were having me as a guest today. I think we need to educate boys about the challenges that boys are having. And that you know, this is not it's not just them. And and of course, it will vary from boy to boy how much they're experiencing those challenges, but butthat this is a systemic issue that we're seeing, and that there are reasons for it, you know,there are brain based reasons boys are boys brains are different than girls brains, there'sdevelopmental reasons with that, with those brain based issues, there are some just flat out different organizations of our brain that make certain learning easier for boys versus girls. That there are things in the system, you know, that I've been talking about today that are not boyfriendly, that we'd like to see changed. So given all of that, we understand why school may bemay be difficult for you, and you may not be succeeding as well as you would hope to, or yourparents would hope you would. Um, so number one, understanding that maybe it's not yourfault, that the things aren't going so well for you right now. And then in terms of expectations, which is what you asked. There's not just one route to life success, that certainly you don'thave to go to an Ivy League college, certainly, you don't have to go to college at all. Theycertainly you can go to college, and then leave college and pursue something else, you canpursue vocational training, you can pursue internships, and job experiences. So there's many different ways to achieve life success. And there's so many great examples out there, BillGates, Steven Spielberg, the list goes on and on a very successful male entrepreneurs whodidn't go the traditional route, with with education. So I think all of that would help an individualboy feel better, relax about, you know, it's not just me and I and and there is hope for me, and,and maybe I can become more of a self advocate for what works for me, and maybe I canexpress to my teachers that I do better, just like I told you about my younger son, I do betterwhen I can make a film. Instead of having to write an essay, I do better when it's hands onexperiential, I do better if I can stand at my desk in the back of the room, where I can moveinstead of sitting in this desk all day long, I do better if I can have periodic breaks to be theirown self advocates is what comes out of that kind of self awareness and changingexpectations.

47:45 Which, to me extends beyond the classroom, right. So if you're a better self advocate, youknow yourself as a learner, you know yourself as an individual, then when you go out into theworld, post secondary, whatever that looks like, and you're on the job, you have the skills to beable to advocate. So I think that's incredibly empowering for our students and for our boys. I agree 48:09 the self advocacy piece is such a huge piece. And it's developmental. So it's different kids are on different paths with developing that self advocacy. They need instruction and support to develop their self advocacy. They need to have people be receptive to their advocacy whenthey're advocating and encourage it. And too often I see schools say, Well, you should be ableto advocate for yourself, if you're a seventh grader, you're a ninth grader, whatever thenumber is, you should be able to advocate for yourself. Well, that might be true of many boysor many girls, that they should they should be at that age for this particular board. They mayneed some instruction and role playing and practice and opportunities, you know, to besuccessful with it. So we need to meet the child where they are on that journey, just like weneed to meet them on the journey of learning to read and to write. 49:15 What are some of your favorite strategies for the IEP table that are aimed at success or for or tomake sure they are doing more for boys success?

49:28 So I think are you asking what strategies to work effectively in collaboration with the IEP team?Is that Is that what Yes? 49:36 Do you have some favorite strategies for professionals that they can start to incorporate intheir work and supporting our boys and the success of boys? 49:49 Yeah, I think it comes back to some things we've already discussed, which is coming into thosemeetings. You not blaming, not adversarial, with respect for the other individuals that at thatmeeting with curiosity about their perspective and a willingness to listen to that perspective.And then with the overarching goal of we are all going to work together to understand who thisboy is, what his strengths are, what his challenges are. And then what can we do together to help him to make progress. And know that only that kind of collaborative meeting is only goingto happen when all those other steps are in place, the the respect the listening and the genuineinterest and curiosity and other people's perspectives. 51:01 If you could give parents three tips on supporting their boys in school, what would they be? 51:09 Think number one to understand the challenges that are present to our boys to have somefamiliarity with those statistics, what exists right now and in the life of boys and school?Number two, I would say is to emphasize the strengths. I think, as parents, we tend to worryabout what our kids aren't doing, you know, what, what their challenges are, you know, how'sthis gonna play out when they go out into the world? But we don't, in my experience, payenough attention to their strengths. So really, let's focus in on what is this board good at? Whatare they passionate about? What are they interested in, and I would say spend more timenurturing and developing the strength than we do remediating the weakness, because peopleare going to succeed in life because of developing their own strengths. So that's, that's number two, which maybe should have been number one. And number three, tip would be to work withprofessionals to get an objective view of where the challenges and the strengths are. And then to identify those challenges, and have a meaningful evidence based plan for addressing thosechallenges. And that's you, too, you can get that as parents through private professionals, interms of good psychological assessment through working with advocate or special edconsultant who's going to provide an objective view, and then also certainly in workingcollaboratively with the school?

53:16 Can you take that same question and frame it for professionals? If I'm a professional, whetherI'm in the school or a service provider in the community, what would be your top three tips tohelp us reframe what matters for boys? 53:37 So I think there will be along the same lines, you know, so as parents, I think professionals needto understand the challenges that boys are facing. We haven't talked much and maybe we cantalk a little about why this issue has not gotten a lot of recognition and attention and I thinkthat includes from our professional community. So to I would, I would really encourageprofessionals to, to look at the data to read one or one or both of these books or other booksthat have been written about boys issues, to really look at the the information to understandwhat the challenges are and why they exist. Number two, then TED to join and advocating forchanges that are going to benefit boys in as a as a gender the systemically and there aremany, many possible changes and have discussed some of them today and there are others,but to advocate for those wherever we can. And then number three, to go back to the microlevel and really pay attention to the individual boys. who are struggling academically, who arestruggling, emotionally, who have mental health challenges as a result of the struggles thatthat they're they have been through, and to work to bring all the resources together school,private parents, to help this individual boy to make progress to see their progress and toflourish. 55:29 So good, so good. So as we wind down our conversation, I have two final questions for you.What should I have asked that I didn't know enough to ask. 55:41 So 55:43 I think we could probably spend another hour talking. Why Why does this issue not get more,more publicity more focus more, you know, more constructive work? And what are some of theother ways that we could be working to improve the school experience systemically for boys? 56:15 Can you give us a 32nd, which is super challenging of the why. 56:21

56:21 So the why we're not paying attention to this issue. Yeah. So I think that I think that rightly,beginning in the 1960s, and 70s, we had, we began putting a great focus on girls and women'sissues. And thankfully we did. We girls were behind in almost every category and systemicallybeing held back by a variety of barriers, teaching methodologies, we now have madetremendous progress in that area, and we're not done, we need to continue to pay attentionand to, to work on those issues. Because of the climate of paying more attention to the issuesof girls and women, I have found that when I wrote a book about boys when I speak about boys,that there is a quick assumption that I might be an anti feminist, that I might not care aboutgirls issues, and I've had some people say that to me, are you are you trying to turn the clockback? Are you trying to, to go back to you know, the way it was? And you know, and hopefully,you and your viewers can can see clearly that I'm not but that is I'm just one part of this? I thinkthat it happens to anyone who brings these issues up there. I'll just finish this answer quickly.And I'm going to go on over the 30 seconds is in that there was a true there was acomprehensive study done in Great Britain in 2005, called Raising boys achievement, I thinkwas Cambridge University. It was thorough evidence based, came up with very specific recommendations. I never hear that talked about never. Maybe maybe in Great Britain,hopefully it was talked about but they still have challenges there with the same issue. But I've never heard it talked about in the United States. Again, it's politically incorrect to really focus on this and and sadly, it's impacting our boys. 58:43 I feel like we you're absolutely right, we could continue this conversation. And hopefully it'sbringing awareness to what we can do, both on that macro level and micro level to bettersupport our boys and all the students that we serve and to better advocate for them foreducational outcomes and also life outcomes as well. What would it be and why if you couldhave a billboard with one tip for parents? Final question. 59:18 One tip for parents pay attention to your boys strengths and develop them. Love it. I love it. If they could only do one thing that would make a huge difference. 59:37 It was such an honor and a pleasure to chat with you today. And I hope we are empowering folks that are listening to move forward and better. Do better with what we're what we're doingand doing the work and serving families and students as well. So thank you so much. 59:55 Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to speak about this important topic. I can love conversing with you about it. Thank you.

1:00:04 Have you bet 1:00:10 as a mom of three boys, I was excited to have this conversation with rich whinfell today talkingabout helping boys succeed in school, and specifically how do we individualize the educationthat they're receiving, addressing the needs of the child and meeting the students where theyare not only academically, but developmentally and socially. Welcome to the special ed Stratuspodcast where we strategize all things, special ed, if you are a new parent to the specialeducation. Let's try that again. If you are a new parent to special education, or a seasonedparent sitting at the IEP table, come join us as we dive deeper and how to help boys succeed inschool. I am your host Wendy Taylor. I'm a mom and special educator I have sat at both sides of the IEP table. As a parent and a professional over the last 25 plus years I have made it mypassion and mission to help parents and professionals bridge learning gaps, access specialeducation services, and build kick butt IPs. If you want more tips show us some love on social at learning essentials. If you are new to our podcast, download, give us a like and a follow andeven give us some feedback on how we're doing let's get ready to strategize Special Educationstyle. Welcome to the show. Thank you again for listening. And Thank you Rich for having this discussion with us. My three special ed strategy takeaways from our episode today. Include focus on and nurture the strength of your child specifically, this conversation was around boysand come curious, with the perspective on how can we help a student learn come curiousmeaning to that table with a conversation to be open to other people's perspective, and curiouson how to improve that student's outcomes. And last, be objective in the sense of gaining thatperspective of gaps in gains on an individual child and think thoughtfully and out of the boxhow we can do better and supporting that students and their learning outcomes. Thank you again for strategizing with us and spending your precious time listening. If you've loved what you've heard, give us a like and a follow at learning essentials. Looking for free tips head over to learning essentials edu.com. You can download free tips to prepare for an IEP IEP meeting, plus bonus questions to ask. I am your host Wendy Taylor. If you need more special educationsupport visit learning essentials where we provide an individualized and systematic approach tosupporting students with various learning needs and differences through academic coaching,educational therapy and brain camp or executive function support model. If you're a parent, I've got you covered through IEP coaching. Hope this helps make it a great day.