Courtney Burnett

Thu, Jan 05, 2023 3:07PM 1:04:15 SUMMARY KEYWORDS iep, assistive technology, device, child, parent, communication, students, question, helping, teachers, school, understand, meeting, accommodation, advocate, mom, goals, feel, school district, identified

Welcome to the show, Courtney, I m excited to talk about assisted assisted technology and the IEP. So thank you for joining us. 00:59 Absolutely. I'm excited. 01:02 Can you give us a little bit about who you are kind of as it relates to the world of specialeducation and how you help support and strategize with parents as it comes to assistivetechnology and the IEP? 01:16 Absolutely, well, first and foremost, I'm a mom. And so my journey actually started with my oldest daughter, who is nonspeaking. So she was born. At her birth, we knew that there were some things going on there. And we weren't sure exactly what that would look like, you know, for her life. But I always say that she is the reason I got involved. Him even became an SLPA speech therapist assistant, and went on to do the IEP consulting and disability advocacy workthat I do, is because of my daughter, and I went on that, that personal journey. And then a little bit about my own story, I have a learning disability. And I grew up on an IEP. So from a veryearly age, I went through the school system as being identified as a struggling student, goingthrough the evaluation process, and then getting on an IEP. And I was old enough in secondgrade to kind of remember that and remember how hard school was. So it's from a very personal place. And then I went on to take additional classes and certifications to be able to do consulting and do the work that I do now, which is helping families navigate IEPs and help maketheir IEP stronger, help their child be able to self advocate and really looking big picture.Because as an adult who goes to the world, using the exact tools that I got in school, I'm verypassionate about helping students be able to feel confident about the way they learn, and knowhow to ask for the things that they need. 02:57 And you're doing such tremendous work. And I appreciate all that insight in terms of you beinga student at an IEP table, you being a parent at an IEP table and you being a professional at anIEP table, you can really then appreciate and take that knowledge to help support families. So as you have sat in different roles at the IEP table, what is your general temperature on howwe're doing as a whole? With IEP s? It's probably a pretty loaded question. 03:31 It's hard, I feel like so my husband's an educator, too. So he's a teacher. So I really know from alot of personal experience not only working in the school system for a while, as a speechassistant, I feel like that there are missed opportunities for professionals to have additional training so that they even know what's available. So a lot of times when I'm helping a familyadvocate, I'm also helping educate different school districts on better understanding whatthey're even supposed to be offering and obligated to offer. And so I feel like a lot of it is, and I've had my husband and other teachers say I had no idea this was available. We've only got taught about IEPs. And like one part of one class in my whole, you know, post secondary experience. And I even had special education teachers say we weren't even taught how to write an IEP. So they're graduating, being expected legally and everything else to go in and write IEPis that they weren't wasn't really part of their schooling. And so if I was to say one thing wecould do to help with teacher retention and satisfaction of the job and therefore helpingstudents have consistency is getting staff trained, either or in their programs or having theschool district take ownership of that and saying, Hey, look, our teachers are not prepared tobe able to write these, therefore, they're feeling, they're feeling discouraged. They're feeling like they're letting their students down. And then parents are frustrated. So that's where I see one of the biggest, you know, gaps there is in training and support for the different things thatthey're supposed to be providing under the law.

05:30 Which is a great segue for a lot of reasons. And as you're talking to so many thoughts are in my head. Part of the specialist strategist podcast is having incredible impactful and interviews withfolks like yourself, but I also do solo episodes. And then so coming up here in the next couple ofweeks of this recording, it's January, but coming up, I have a solo episode talking about justicein terms of support and training for school personnel and parents to be put into an IEP becauseyou're absolutely right, I don't think even members of that team and meaning parents, but alsomeaning professionals, don't know that they can even ask for additional training, or how to askand how to get that properly written into an IEP. And I think that's incredibly important, andempowering our parents as to, you know, reducing that fear and overwhelm as they're goingthrough this IEP process. You know, it's their baby, they're so fearful of it, and then not knowingall of the paperwork and the language that goes into it. And you're right about schooling. I know, you know, this was many months ago, but 100% What you're saying, my undergrads andregular add, and I don't really think we made we had this little they call it a blue book, and itwas like a little blip on the radar of the schooling, of what special education was, I then went onfor my master's in special education. And, and on that flipside, you do understand the law, and you get training. And now but not exactly writing IEP is, and what I've heard paid, professionalssay is that their universities said, No, we don't really want to, you know, not we're not that's nota main part of our curriculum, because every district does a different, but boy, some trainingand goal writing and what to ask for more framework? I agree. 07:26 Yeah, especially since we do know, there is federal guidelines and how how they roll that out,can look different on whatever system they're writing it in, right, whatever computer software,it's being rolled out in. But the general I think, you know, like, when I, when I have my license, Itook I take an oath, and there's a certain things that I have to adhere to. And I think that we're doing teachers a disservice when we don't help them understand what their legal obligation isboth as a gen ed teacher and a special education teacher, because how can they better selfadvocate for themselves and for their students and be a gatekeeper of, in my opinion, likesaving the district 1000s of dollars, by better understanding, oh, we shouldn't, that's violating this, this, we need to have a discussion about this, they can't do that, if they don't know thatthey're actually violating part of the federal law. And so I really see it like when I go to school districts that might, this is so important. And let's also highlight, it can save you money and lotsof legal fees, by helping your staff better understand the minimum that we have to provide,and then how can we go to from there to make it better for students? But you're so right, Imean, the staff training piece, I could, you know, say that, for all calm devices, right, thatabsolutely needed, they're not going to know how to just use this communication device. But I've had clients, we've had to do first sensory integration. So their child had this really greatsensory program, we spent a lot of time writing it, I was with the family, we're so excited. And then it got to the school year, and we're like, oh, but the paraprofessionals don't know how toidentify what sensory item she needs, or how to how much time does the child getting so theywere doing things that weren't quite right. But it really wasn't their fault because they didn'tknow anything about implementing a sensory integration plan. And so goes for like, behaviors, sensory programs. And then of course, my passion is you know, communication devices andassistive technology, but there's many things we can identify that get written into the IEP,rightfully so, we've identified the child needs it, we you know, we put it in there, but a missinglink I also see as that implementation piece and we have to support the people, boots on theground. On in the schools doing it because they're the ones you know, especially theparaprofessionals, assistants, different schools call them that job position different. But in mydaughter's program, her paraprofessionals are doing small group interventions, they arehelping her with her daily living skills, they are modeling on her communication device. So the best thing that we could do for them, is to get them trained to where they felt confident in whatthey were doing and excited because when you don't feel confident, you're not excited to do it,and you're less likely to do it. Now. They're like communicating about a story that helped mydaughter, right? And, you know, can we, what can we do for this bond. And now we have like all this buy in and team communication that every parent wants. And that came from getting themsupported to where they felt confident that they were doing it correctly, therefore, they want totalk to me about it. If you don't know if they're doing it, right. They don't want to talk to me about it. So I just see it as like a huge win for everybody. Everybody wins when everybody's supported.

11:09 1,000%, can you define what 80 is assistive technology and AAC and how that relates to anIEP? 11:20 Absolutely. So assistive technology that we love acronyms and special education, probablybecause there's so many words, they're so long, but assistive technology is that that at and sothat's really an umbrella, I tell parents, like look at it as like a big umbrella. And there's several things that fall under that. And one of the things that falls under that is AAC, augmentative, andalternative communication. And that can really be anything from a communication board thathas like pictures, it could be the picture exchange cards we see sometimes. And then can computer devices that come on like iPads that have different apps that are downloaded. And there's a lot of variety. That's why not, you know, to go back to the training piece you can knowabout, maybe you really no touch chat, this one application of one of the many communicationdevices out there, you might feel really good about that. And you know, the layout, and then a child comes in. And they have a totally different system that they have lamps word for life, andthat has different icons as different layouts. Now all of a sudden, the teachers like, I don't know how to use lamp, I'm really good at touch chat, or maybe your child's speech therapist went toa couple trainings and they feel really confident about this one application, but then they're notreally that familiar with the other ones. And that's why there's a lot of variety. And there's different reasons for having different types of communication devices. And so that's why that training piece is so important. So if we go back to assistive technology, that can be anythingfrom the names misleading, because we think it has to be like all high tech and fancy, but itcan be a slant board, it could be a pencil grip, it could be a magnifying something thatmagnifies the screen, talk to Tech's a student who may be I really like to look at it for studentswho have been in occupational therapy for handwriting for a really long time, maybe we're notmaking much progress, and nobody can still really read their handwriting. And that's like myred flag saying, Okay, let's move on to we type a lot, we communicate by phone by text byemail, maybe it's time, we can still work on the fine motor skills and making sure that theyhave the dexterity and everything. But if it's like legibility, and we've really given an are all onlegibility, I say, let's move towards helping the child be able to type efficiently, being able toturn on turn off their device and get to their application, because that's a life skill that they cantake into beyond school and into their career and other life skills that they need. And that's the purpose of an IEP is to help prepare them for that. So we're doing our students and our ownkids a disservice if we're not looking at assistive technology because we live in a time where weare blessed to have assistive technology that is changing every day. And there's so many things that can help your child live independently. And with more confidence in themselves. If they can do some of these things with knowing how to turn it on and get it set up. Then they can do it. They're like I can do this. I can write a paper now. You know, I mean, yeah,

14:53 life changing. How do we even determine what do advice or assistive technology or AAC isneeded for a child, whether it's as a school team or as a parent, what is your recommendation?Like? How do you even 15:12 go about that? Yeah. So there's one part. And it's something that kind of just my husband hassaid this to me, because he sets up a lot of meetings to he's like, What is this mean? Becausethey always say it, and then they say, not needed. And he's like, I don't understand how everykid could not need it, the phrases, assistive technology was considered and most of the timeit's followed with not needed. So one of the things that anybody watching or listening to thepodcast is going to get is I actually have a five questions to ask your next IEP meeting. It's a digital download, and I walk them through, like, how to take on that question. Because legally, they're supposed to consider it. A How did they consider it? This is the part that I see missing ata lot of meetings that I attend, is their marking considered, but it really wasn't considered atthe table at the meeting and a discussion like, Hey, this is what assistive technology is, theseare the different things that we could put on here. And we decided at the last meeting that wedidn't need that, does everyone still agree that Johnny does not need a pencil grip, talk to tax,any sort of, you know, even a little thing to help with distractions that goes up? Really, nobodyneeds it. And so that's the part that's the red flag for me is when I'm looking at their presentlevels, when I'm looking at the needs identified, and then I see assistive technology not needed, I just kind of have to laugh, because I feel like it is needed, we just didn't really break itdown for all the team members to know. Like, I didn't know that was assistive technology. I didn't know fell under that. So that's the first thing is to take on that question, because it's apart of every IEP document has to be considered. But there's not really clear direction on whatdoes considered me and so I help break down, like, considered versus a conversation. And so, you know, having the parents say, how is that considered? How did we come up with thatanswer that it's not needed, and then make a list of their concerns, the things that they'reseeing, or the progress that's not being made, and then identifying that to where they canbring that so they're gonna, you know, get brave, and they're gonna, they're gonna ask aquestion, a clarifying question. And one of the things I really work hard to help my familiesunderstand is, you're not being that parent for asking questions. If you're being in my opinion,respectful, you're asking clarifying questions, you're looking for additional information you'retrying to collaborate, that does not make you that parent and makes you a great parent who'sinvolved in the IEP who wants you know, to help see it through. And they should be able, theymean, the school team should be able to stand behind their answers. And if they can't, then allwe did was kind of fleshed out that we kind of check that box, but we didn't really have thatdiscussion. And then you can say, I would really like to talk about that. Because I do think myson needs some help with assistive technology, I do think they could benefit from that. So how to go about it, starting there. And then the other thing parents can do, that I most schooldistricts that I've attended, they're kind of surprised. They don't really know what to do with it. I don't know that that many parents ask for it. But you can have an assistive technologyevaluation, it just like a speech evaluation, occupational therapy evaluation. The hardest part,though, is currently there is no regulation on who lik e so for instance, a SLP, a licensed speechand language pathologist who has certain credentials, they do the speech evaluation, that'swho we've identified, that's who can do it. Same with occupational and physical therapy, and so on. The unique thing about assistive technology is there can be an assistive technologyspecialist, but there there's not like a special license or they have to have their certificates andthere's things that they can have. But that's one thing that's not outlined as that they have to be this one certain person. So a lot of times if they do it at all the school district and be like, oht does this part and speech might do this part and then they come together, and they puttogether the the evaluation. But just like with anything if the parent doesn't feel like wow, thatdidn't really capture my kid or I don't feel like that that kayat did it justice of what we're reallylooking for, you can then say, just like with any other one, I want an independent educationalevaluation. And then they have to outsource to try to get that a more comprehensive. One. There's a couple of different guidelines, you know, this the SAT or the wadi, and they gothrough different questions, and they look at different areas. But really, it's one of the onlyevaluations where you're really looking at reading, writing, life skills, math, differentenvironments, and you're looking at the whole day, and coming up with each one of those whatkind of tools or supports does a child need to be able to build their independence? And so Ifound that a lot of school districts have not been asked to do an assistive technologyevaluation. So when I bring it up, they're like, What exactly are you asking for? What do youwant us to do? And they don't know, because no parent has ever asked for one. They're like, I don't know. Tell me how. And so I find you know, starting with that one question, it wasconsidered and not needed. breaking that up. And then if, if from there, we can identify someat least good starting points, then move to the evaluation, and go through the process thatway?

21:32 What a tremendous nugget of knowledge for parents to have and even professionals. Can iti thl dAAC b tf504 l?

assistive technology and AAC be part of a 504 plan? 21:44 Yeah, I think it could, I mean, I feel like that most of the kids that need that also need an IEP, but I would say if a child's coming in. And, for instance, I know one of my daughter's friends,and she would be fine with me talking about it. She's in Gen Ed, she has her power wheelchair, she she has a 504. Because everything she needs, it has to do with accommodations of gettinginto the building, being able to positioning. And so she doesn't need the curriculum to be modified, she needs the accommodations of the environment and how she's sitting and accessto assistive technology. And she's on a 504. So I feel like if you come in and your child is doingwell, with their communication device, they're rocking it, and they they just need theaccommodation of having it available. Maybe they need someone helping them set it up. If they can't do that themselves, I would definitely think that that could be written into a 504. I haven't seen it too often because most of my clients also have an IEP. But it's a right that they have tobe able to communicate, to be able to access that just like they have the right to have a ramp,be able to make sure the doors open positioning, whatever they need to go throughout the day,that would still fall under that. One part of your other question I didn't quite touch on is like if aparent wants it, like outside of the school, I know that this kind of focus on IEP is in there. But a parent can get a private evaluation for a communication device, they can get that approved,and then go to the school. So let's say they've tried to get the school on board, they're like they're not budging. I really feel like my kid could benefit from this. If they went through theirprivate insurance or Medicaid, I got an evaluation, got a device, then what I would do is I wouldhave the parents bring that information that report and have a IEP meeting to consideradditional information. The additional information is your private about and the fact that yourchild was given through the insurance, the communication device, have it listed that they agreethat they need it, that's very important, because when once they agree that they need it, thatthey understand they need it, it could be provided the device could be provided by familybecause you're bringing the device. But the school is also saying if the device doesn't come orit's broken, we understand we need to provide something. This is where it should be documented. We need to prove providing something equal to that if the child doesn't haveaccess to that because we've now agreed as a team that they need access to a communicationdevice to be able to communicate and access their education. So that's that piece where you bring it. You still need to get the staff trained, you still need to have them acknowledge that itexists and that they agree that they need it. That way you can document what happens if it's broken. It's not charge something of that nature. Most schools will not put the exact device ButI tell parents, we can go into describe mode, you know, it's like add buttons they have, youknow, that can be accessed with whatever, how is your child accessing it. And they have todisclose to make a good faith effort to provide a reasonable replacement or a reasonablesubstitute, just like they would if your child needed a certain kind of chair, and that chair broke,they can just say, Oh, well, we don't have that specialty chair anymore. Your child's just going to fall out of the chair at school. So that doesn't work. It doesn't work with communication devices, either.

25:39 How do we include our students in this process? As a whole of you know, what works? Whatdoesn't work? What do they need, you know, what choices can a student make?

25:53 I think that's a great question. Depending on the ability of your child to be able to communicatewith you, I would start by walking them through, like, for instance, if I go back to me havinglearned disability, and if my mom was to come to me and say, hey, you know, I was learningabout these different things, you can have access to a school, we don't currently have that onyour IEP, what sorts of things do you think would help you during the day? So I know we did talkabout like, having a note taker, this is back in the 80s is a little different, but I one of myaccommodations was I had a note taker, so I couldn't take notes. And listen, I would be missing half the lecture and half my notes would be missing as well. So I had an accommodation of like a note taker, or a recorder, I could have recorded the lecture or so going through andidentifying what are still some struggles your child's having, what things do they want to learnhow to talk to tax would that be helpful? Maybe they want Grammarly could be downloadedonto like a Chromebook. You know, there's only so much that we can do to try to teach kidsthese rules and if they're if they're not able to learn the rule, then we should be able to bring ina tool that helps them be a competent writer and to be able to write a good paper or to turn inand something at work because helping them use some an app or a download a resource likeGrammarly is going to help them it highlights all your errors. That's one thing that Grammarlydoes, it gives you suggestions of different words, and I know being having a learning disability,oftentimes, I would just stick to words I knew how to spell. So it didn't necessarily highlight myvocabulary or some of my knowledge because I might stick with a more simple word because Iknew how to spell it and I knew I had the right meaning. So Grammarly can help them. It says, hey, you've used this word a lot. What about these other two words tha t mean similar thing. So I really feel like helping them see what's available, and then what things they would need andgetting their feedback is really helpful. Because as I started to understand my own IEP, I couldthen say to my teacher, I know I'm allowed to go to a quiet testing location. And I'm asking that and then if they denied me, I learned how to say, you actually can't do that. This is this is protected. So I'm leaving, and I'm going over there. And I had I remember a science teacher very, he did not like that I got to go to a different testing location, he didn't care for it. So I had to stand up for myself. And then you know, finally my mom got involved because at the time Iwas a high school student and I was one of those students, I did not disrespect my teachers, Idid not want to get my name written on the board or anything. And finally, my mom said she's being respectful. She's telling him, You know, I have the right and he's denying her. And youknow, basically my mom said, that's illegal, you need to step in and protect her right to go to adifferent testing location. So as a child understands, I have the right to have access to this, andhow do I communicate with my teachers? To me, that's a really important life skill. If we think about employment down the road, how can your child respectfully go to their boss and say,Hey, I need a stool available at my station because I can't stand for this long because of thesethings. And this is an accommodation that I know I can have. And that's a life skill of being able to self advocate. So bringing them in and helping them understand how their brain works, howthey learn what they need best. It's just going to help them feel more confident in themselvesand have better self esteem too. Because when we understand I learned differently, but it doesn't make me less. That was something that was really hard for me as a kid because I wanted battle fast.

29:59 Sorry to interrupt Jeremiah loves that.

30:01 Yeah. And it's like, and I distinctly I've told teachers this before, like, I distinctly remember myresource teacher, and she looked me dead in the eyes. And she said, your brain works differently. It doesn't make you dumb. It doesn't make you stupid. Your brain literally is wired to learn differently. And so she she gave me what she called workaround strategies. I tell families, I still use, I wish I could find her. I've tried, whatever I'm looking at, I wonder, I want to, I want to go and give her a big hug. And say, like, Hey, girl, I'm still using my workaround strategies. I'm 42. And I still using my workaround strategies. That's why any teachers Listen, like, if you'relike, I don't know, should I be doing this still? Like, yes, please keep going. Because we really doneed dedicated great educators, and her workarounds, Chatterjee's stuck with me. And I thought I was a student in sixth grade. And so I just remember her speaking life into me aboutyou're smart, you're capable, you can do whatever you want to do, you just got to understandhow your brain works. And it just works different than some of your peers. And that's okay. But that was a huge thing for me to understand that. Just because I read slow didn't mean, I was dumb, I meant that my brain took longer to process those words, and to understand what I wasreading. But that's hard when your classmates are going fast, and they're finishing fast, andyou feel like, I want to be fast, I want to be a fast test taker, and I was a slow, that's one of thereasons I like to go into a different room, as I didn't have the pressure of everyone getting upand then feeling like everyone's gonna know, I'm still taking my test. And so really, for me, itwas leaving the environment to allow me to take the time I needed because if I stayed, Igenerally rush because I didn't want to be last. And so having that testing accommodation, andeven into college was really important for me, because if it was a timed test, I would generallyget a whole break lower. And when my professor extended the time, and I never used the extratime, she pointed out to me at the end of the semester, like corny never use the extra time. But I noticed when I didn't give you the extra time you got to see. And when I gave you the extra time you gotta be. And that was simply because I wasn't focusing on running out of time, I wasable to focus on the question. So sometimes these accommodations, there's a variety of different reasons. But once we know it works, then we don't need to really go any further than that. Having extra time worked for me, I allowed me to get good grades and finish things thatotherwise I think I wouldn't have because I would have gotten flustered. 32:50 So just circle back to assistive technology, if parents are uncertain about kind of what mightwork or what's available, and professionals don't always have the training. How could a parentfind out what is available? And how could they figure out? What is working? So it's kind of threepoints. Right? So how can they figure out what's working? How do they find what's available?And then how do they convey that information to the school to have the school help? 33:25 Yeah, so a lot of websites I know here in Arizona on our Department of Ed website, they breakdown like a lot of different questions and sections and things that they're legally obligated todo, right? There'll be on your department and website. So here in Arizona, if you go there, tothe state website, you'll see assistive technology and they break it down. And they even havelike a sample like a little graph of like reading struggle, what they could have. So looking at your department, it's overwhelmingly anti, it's like, not fun reading. But if you go there, you can see a little bit about that. And then I would also ask if you're getting any sort of occupationaltherapy, speech therapy outside of school, ask them like, hey, could this be used at school orlook up some of the recommendations on their home program for you, if they're recommendinghaving access to fidgets and meeting certain kinds of adaptive equipment? That should be alight bulb for you that says, If my daughter Hannah needs that for home to be able to walkaround campus, or to be rock around our neighborhood, she probably needs access to a gaittrainer at school so she could walk around campus and have a different position from only herwheelchair so she could have a different position and participate in PE if she's able to standwith the assistive technology of a gait training, assistive adaptive aid. So really looking at, like,What things are you doing at home, and if there's anything you're doing, that's a computerthing, or modifying the environment or the type of pencil your child's using. If you're ot saying that, then I would bring that to the school. And so sometimes it they should know. But just byasking a couple of key questions, then the parent could say, I would like to schedule anothermeeting, when you can bring back some of these ideas. So my job as a parent is to askquestions, and to try to help facilitate making sure that IEP is comprehensive, but it's not myjob as a parent to to know all the different ins and outs, like your occupational therapists shouldbe able to come to the meeting. And if they don't know, then you can say, well, let's table thisand come back in two weeks when you have time to research that because I really want tohave a team discussion about that. And we can't right now, because we don't have enough information. So I think that's part of the reason why I'm so passionate about the the fivequestions to ask, because I really break it down to help parents start those conversations. And then we need to, at some point, be able to pass the baton to the professional and saying, I'veasked the questions, I've identified some things my kid needs, I need you to go do the researchand come back. And so we can have a discussion about it. And if you're a professional at ameeting, and you ever don't know, I wish more people would say, this is such a great question.I've honestly never been asked this at a meeting. And I would really like the opportunity to golook into that, can we come back in a week or two weeks so that we can have a discussion about that? And feel good about that. Because as a parent, I would rather have somebody say,I've never really written something like that. That seems like a really cool idea. Let me go look into it so that we can have a good discussion about it. But what happens oftentimes is wedeflect, because we don't want to say we don't know something, because we're supposed to bethe expert in this particular role at the meeting. And so I would just encourage families to sayit's okay, if you don't know, can we come back in a week or two to discuss it after you've had achance to look into it, because this is so important to me, I want my son to be able to haveaccess to this, if that's something that can be written into his IEP. And honestly, I really not just because I do it, but I hire an advocate or a coach for my own kids. Because when I go in there,I'm um, no matter how much I tried to be Courtney, the advocate like that, they'll saysomething and, and something comes up. And as a mom, my mom have always come out first.So when I was getting my son qualified for an IEP, this last year, I hired one of my friends that Iknew could do a great job. It's what she does in her business, too. And she came with me, not because I was going to fight with the district, because I wanted a second set of ears, I wantedsomebody listening only as like neutral. And I could go in and be mom. And then she helped me remember different things that was said. So I highly recommend parents not be afraid ofbringing in an advocate or an IEP coach, because you don't have to be in high conflict to want support you. In fact, I've had a lot of clients that just have worked with me ongoing and we justwrite really great IEPs year after year, and the parents never get to high conflict, which mostparents want to avoid that anyways. So having somebody that can look at different things helpyou come up with ideas, I highly recommend reaching out and having somebody you know,come with you or at least prep for the meeting, because they're going to know a lot about this different areas that you probably just there's no way as a busy mom and dad that you couldknow every little thing about the IEP, when that's not your expertise, that's not your job. So I just recommend having someone on your team because it's worth it.

39:11 That's right and you come across as a team player and having that coach kind of either prepyou or just be with you and have that second person there is super helpful. How can I up goals? Or how can I EP goals reflect the use of 80 and AAC? 39:29 Yeah, so one of the great ways is just having it like for a speech goal, having access to totalcommunication or actually having listed out so we've had it listed out you know the student canrespond verbally with signed or communication device so accepting and that is a protection.Sometimes I write that as a protection for the child because sometimes students who usecommunication devices are made to like let's say they can answered verbally or with a wordapproximation, and then somebody will come back and say, but say it on your device. And the students frustrated because they've already said it. So really outlining what is the objective of the goal. Because if it's to show a knowledge, whether the answer verbally signed, pointed, oruse their device, they've shown they've demonstrated the knowledge. And then if it's like, learning, sometimes our goals are, and this is where a lot of people get confused on working onthe device, the communication device and working with it. So a goal with working on it mightbe to be able to turn up or down the volume on their own to be able to turn on that device toknow where to go. So the mechanics of knowing when to turn it off, and what environment dowe need it loud and saw, that's those are like working on it, like how to use it. And then workingwith it is, you know, being able to model on the device, being able to have the child, maybethey have a identifying groups and understanding the categories and how to find things ontheir communication device. So we might have a group's goal or category goal. And that's supported with the device things or categories. So understanding categories will help themaccess their device and know how to like navigate it. And bein g able to keep those goals open ended. So we don't end up in a situation where we're drilling the child instead of working withthem on the device. Because when I hear someone say, my kid doesn't like their device, orthey just don't use it, they shove it away. That's my red flag that they've been drilled. Because when we're using it for authentic communication, and so, you know, just last week, one of myclients told me to be quiet and go home, on his device. And I laughed so hard, because I waslike, well, whether you like it or not, you just did speech, you hit some of your goals. And I was laughing, because I was just proud, I was proud that just like any other kid, he could tell me, hedidn't want to work with me the week after Christmas, and I could just go home. And so bring them to protest, teaching them to give their opinions. And a lot of times we get stuck on like requesting. And we're not teaching kids to protest, to give their opinions to express their wantsand needs in other ways, like he was telling me like to understand how to do that is reallyimportant. And then with the other, any sort of tool, either listing it out, or in the summary ofthat the child has access. So for instance, on the communication, it would say, you know, asprovided by location throughout the school day, so ways that we can say, in any locationthroughout the school day as needed. Anything that we can do to help everybody understandthat this tool, whether it be your slant board, or your Chromebook, or whatever, that there's notspecial environments that that's used in, if that's something that should go to PE or there, what are we going to do in PE if we don't want this expensive? You know, how are we going toprotect the device and p? So maybe do we do a low tech communication board? Do we do youknow, Velcro or something, but we still need to support the child's being able to communicateand PE we can't just say like, oh, well, the device could get broken, or this tool could get lost.So we're just we're just gonna lock it up, like no. So anything like that as needed throughout the day. And then in the actual goal, making sure that we're having a conversation, because aparent needs to be clear, it's really hard sometimes because as a therapist, we use words, wehave our goals that we just love. And but as a parent, you need to understand what what theend goal is for your kid and make sure that that makes sense to you. Because you're getting progress notes, you're helping monitor it. So if you don't understand how it's being tracked, orhow we achieve it, or why we're working on that, then you're you're not being fully included inthat IEP because you're being left out of I don't even know how are actually why are wemonitoring that? Why are we working on that? And so for some of our kids, there's a lot of goalswe could work on, there's a lot of things we could work on. But what one is most important tothe child to the parent to the team, and what's one is going to help them in all environmentslike being able to turn take and do that helps him at home, being able to weight being able todo you know, it's hard sometimes some of those you know, do non preferred tasks or whateverBut what what are those things? Why is it important? How is it going to be addressed, and thenmaking sure that we're still honoring the child and not really, I say forcing, like, it might not betheir time to work on that goal. And we don't want to do more harm than good by like locking inon something that is they're just not ready to, to work on, you know,

45:24 how can I parent and even a professional collect data, when it comes to goals that arereflecting a T and a C. 45:35 So a couple of things that I've created for my own is, like I say, creating, like, you know, like agraph or something like that, that they say, Okay, we're going to collect over so many things Iwant to be collecting that it was that it was offered like it was out. So just offering it, especiallyfor our communication devices, tracking how many models other people are doing. So modeling is me going on to the device without any expectation that the child responds, but I'msaying go to the bathroom time to go. And so tracking that you model that the device is outand you modeled as a parent, that's super important to me, because I just want to make surethat it's available, it's being used, that my child had access to it. So for teams, I also think think of ways that we can track the overall, you know, was the assistive technology available? Didthe child use it? How much support did they need in using it will help you understand maybewhat's working, what's not, and maybe some things can be, you know, taken away, or maybewe needed just like, the child isn't quite ready to self advocate, so the teacher needs to be ableto offer it. So they need to say, Hey, I noticed that you you didn't open up grammerly Did youwant to use Grammarly? Did you know you could use Grammarly and then having them say Icouldn't remember where to go to get it? I couldn't I couldn't activate it on my Word document,then we might say okay, they need to work on self advocacy. So they when they need it with prompts. So figuring out like I haven't like a little I didn't print it. But it's part of one of my my80 in the IEP course I have is part of what's in there is community data, taking teamcommunication, things that I've seen them struggle with, like passwords. What happens if the child X is out of the particular vocabulary? So having like a vocabulary, what sat there on in likea little binder, so that anybody could come in and know like, Oh, Johnny got out of that he wentto a 15 set, he's actually on 60? How do we get back to 60. So having those teamcommunications, but a lot of that comes through those checklists. And I like to really, I use the word reward. I don't mean it that way. But so many schools are driven by data. And they need to show that the kids are making progress. So I always want to make sure they're getting creditfor modeling, they're getting credit for having it available. Because one of the biggestindicators in a child making progress in it is having it available and having other people modelon it. And then know that they can have it. So I always want to make sure we're tracking thatbecause that's gonna motivate the staff to be like, we're winning, just by getting this out on thetable. We're winning by modeling on it throughout the day, even if the child never touches it.Because just like when are we have children and we're talking and we're talking to them all daylong for two years. And then one day, we're rewarded with Mama or data or ball or somerandom word, we're like, where did you buy is that your first word like I gave birth to you. But our kiddos with communication device need that same kind of immersion in language. And so they're never going to independently hit that device to activate it. Unless they see other people using it. And they're modeling, go potty, go outside, and we have to be touching it andmodeling it and so they can see it and feel it and then they can do it. And so what I see a lot is we're saying oh, the kids aren't making progress. This isn't a good fit for them. When really,they never had a chance because they only got it out during speech or we only mom's using it.And no one else in the family is using it. So like my dad went Papa went to a C training. He sure did. He washed his hands every Thursday and Papa went to training. And now he tells himself i She went out of the application and I knew how to go get it from wherever it was becaus e Papawent to training. And now Papa is modeling on there. And so getting everybody involvedbecause that's what's going to make your child actually be able to use it. And one thing I didn'ttouch on that I want you is there's no requirement to be completely non speaking. There's no requirement, you have to isolate a finger like these imaginary prerequisites that people havecome out Asha than the speech organization for SLPs in the United States have said, there is noprerequisites. Starting early is great. And there's no harm in introducing your child to acommunication device or integrating assistive technology. I hate the word lazy. I have never met a student who is lazy. I met a student who's frustrated, I met students who have shut down. I've never met a lazy student. And so I really I just tell people, like, You got to be modeling it, it's got to be available. There's no harm in your three year old. Learning this because there's nothing easier than speaking. So if your child can they Well, but I've hadnumerous numerous clients explode with vocabulary after getting communication device. I one of my clients, she happens to be autistic, she's she's self taught herself how to use her deviceto problem solve. She was reading a book, she didn't know a word. And right in front of me and her mom, she went on to her device, she went to the ABCs. she typed, she copied the lettersfrom the book into her device, went up to her top bar, hit it, had it, read it to her said it did ittwo more times to cement the word. And then went on and read the rest of the book and just looked at her mom. And I said, Does the school knows she can do that. Because that was That was phenomenal, beautiful, G speaking. But if she's in a sensory overload, if she's in anenvironment, she doesn't feel comfortable, she'll immediately go to her device, or maybe shejust prefers that. She'll do it. It should be a right they have to be able to use whatever they need. Because sometimes I feel like calling my friend. Sometimes I feel like texting. And sometimes I feel like sending an email, I'm no different. i Why do I have to only talk if, youknow, I don't feel like conversating today, in that way, our children and our students have thesame autonomy of what they want to do.

52:27

52:27 Your passion is so clear, and it makes me just warm and my heart. I do have a question that wehave not addressed is the cost, right? So we have all this beautiful app all the beautiful optionsfor our students. And I hope people are taking furious notes and replaying and, you know,hitting the back button to hear again to make sure they're getting all of this great knowledge.But what about the cost? Who covers the costs? Where does that come from? 52:57 Yeah, so the if it's coming through the school, the schools come is required to cover the costs.So we know well, not everybody knows they're not actually allowed to say we can't do that,because that costs too much money. That's actually illegal to say. But so what they'll do oftentimes is say, I don't think that's quite needed. Have we tried this and they might try todownplay what they think your child needs, because in the back of their mind, they're sayingthat costs money. So I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Some of these devices, if they're adedicated device, like if they're on an iPad, you're probably looking at like 1000 to 1500. If it's a dedicated like eye gaze device, where they're using their eyes to activate the button,something of that nature, we're talking 10 to 12, maybe even $20,000, they are expensive. But being expensive, doesn't negate the school district's responsibility to provide it and there'smany things on assistive technology that have little to no cost that aren't still being provided.So if it's coming through the IEP, it would be provided to the school district now I provide mydaughter's communication device because she's on Medicaid, it was covered, and she has it soI send it to school. And I pay for you know, not really I but through her insurance, if it meansreplaced or anything like that the insurance covers it. What the school district is promising isthat if it's broken doesn't come that they're providing her with something similar to it. And then you can always try to go through your private event or Medicaid and see if they will cover it andthen have the school agree to integrate it into the IEP. I personally don't have a problem with it because we we use it all the time. I want it to be used at school but it's also part of her right toHave it falls under durable medical equipment. So just like a wheelchair, or Walker, any sort of adaptive aid LFOs. If your insurance covers it, it will most likely be under durable medical equipment. So you could always see if they cover it. Another option is to go to the devicemanufacturer who who creates the device, because oftentimes, they have somebody on staffthat specializes in funding resources and helping parents and even schools, look at lendinglibraries, look at any grants that are out there, because part of their job is getting devices infamily and kids his hands. So a lot of times, I know lamps word for life, touch chat, PRC, theyhave specialists to different regions of the country, and then they specialize it and funding andgrants and how to get it and then what things you need in order to get it and they'll helppartner with you and your 55:59 coordinate Hold on. Can you just like rewind about 30 seconds, you froze? Okay. 56:05 So the part where you can go to like PRC or lamp towards for life, they actually manufacturethe devices, and oftentimes they have funding specialists. So they'll partner with your speechor your school team, look at any lending libraries in the area, look at any grant resources, or your own insurance, and help you understand your insurance plan. And so they're motivated to provide that service. Because then you they get the device order, and they get it in your hands. So it's like a win win. They have funding specialists to help you get the device and then theysell that and then you get it. So they went through that. But they oftentimes they have thesepeople who and thereby regions of the country, so they'll know like Iowa, what what works forIowa. Okay, how does Arizona do it so that region manager will know their region and whatthings are in the area and how it works a little bit state to state. And so that's another option tolook at the lending libraries, and those actual device makers, see if they can help you withfunding.

57:10 As we kind of wrap up our conversation today, can you give us three tips that you would sharefor parents and three tips you would share for professionals? 57:18 Absolutely. So for a parent, I would say explore assistive technology look into it. And one of the things you're getting here today is access to my free workshop about assistive technology andthe IEP. So I would highly recommend taking advantage of that and looking at it so that you arebetter informed about that. Don't be afraid or buy into any, you know, bad advice, essentially,that comes to pass down sometimes with good intention. But having your child have assistivetechnology is not going to make it easier for them, it's not going to make your child lazy, it'snot going to harm them from, you know, learning to communicate verbally. So being strongenough truth that you are going to explore that and see if it works for your child because youwant them to have access to whatever. And that was the mistake I made early on with mydaughter, I was so fixated on her speaking my daughter is 18 She has never spoken she'snever she's never said Mama. And that hurts. That's I guess, Mom, I want that. But for too many years, I focused only on that. And I really regret it was different times there was less things out there. But that's one of my regrets. Because honoring how Hannah communicateswhatever that looks like, I want that for her and not get locked into has to be you know, verbal,really asking good questions and not being afraid to ask questions at the IEP table or before themeeting, because you're an equal member of the IEP team. But you are as a disadvantagebeing that you didn't even go to school for this, you just you got put here, and this is your newlife. And this is part of your life. And so do not be afraid to ask questions. There's no dumb question. And if you're meeting them and talking respectfully and bringing your ideas, as ateam, they should be open to that. And that would lead me to my first tip for for schools isbeing willing to try to listen to what the parents saying, and then figure out okay, where's theirheart? Moms really talking about this and exploring? Can you help me understand why that'simportant to you? Because maybe they're using this word, and you're like, we can't write goalsfor that. That's not going to work. And then we shut them down. But instead, get curious what'sbehind that? What are you thinking and then saying, You know what, this is kind of what I cando at the school setting. This is all we can write that I know that it's not going to get shut down by admin. So here's what I can do to try to support that and really meeting them where they're at. I'm sending those progress notes and really just being willing to answer questions about it ifthe parent I think sometimes, unfortunately, I think there's a new movement, we're really tryingto dismantle US versus then anger on both sides. And really say I want, I want to understandwhat this parents asking I want to help this child because that the the child is what's most important. And then not being afraid to advocate for your students and talk to admin outsidethe meeting, to be able to talk to your team and say, Okay, I know, I know, we're feeling likeour hands are tied. But I know the shop needs a communication device. So what can we do to get this started? What can we do today to get one step closer, because I know, this is what mystudent needs. And so we we have to find a way to get this done. And I think that that takes a little bit of bravery. But we have to have brave educators, too, that are saying, it's not right thatthis child's not making progress for three years now. We're just stagnated and work and beingable to be able to say that's putting us at risk, the child's not making progress, and these otherthings. So being being a little bit brave. I know it's hard. But I've advocated many times with my knees shaken. And I know that it can, it can be on both sides professionally, and as aparent, but I'm just being open to doing things a little different and saying, You know what,we've been doing this way for 12 years at the school district. And I don't really like the vibe. So I'm going to try. I'm going to try it this way. Let's see what happens.

1:01:28 My final question, if you had a billboard with one tip for parents, what would it be? And why? 1:01:37 Oh, that's a hard one. So many tips. A big big tip is using your parent and put statement your statement at the IEP. So a lot of times they'll say like, what do you want for the next year? Iknow, I didn't, I didn't understand what they were really asking me back then. With Hana. So I would say like, prepare what you want to share and like come to the meeting. Like like, it's like it's a business meaning but what I mean is, take time to like, take your notes, and to take yourideas and really formulate them so that you can take this one part of the IEP that's all aboutyou and slay it because you I've changed placement with the parent input statement, I'vechanged goals versus that. Post Secondary things for kids, when we're coming into high school,do not underestimate your voice at the IEP table, I think that would be what I would sum it up isdon't underestimate your voice at the IEP table, and how you can collaborate with the team.Because I think I first too many years were like, well throw the expert. I'm a guest, I'm Hannah's mom, and I'm a guest here. And then I realized I'm not a guest. And like, I go with her to these doctor's appointments. I know what she's doing over here. And then how can I share what I see at home to help the team better understand what my daughter is capable of. And so using your voice and not being not under estimating it 1:03:09 might drop done. So good. So go ahead. I'm very thankful for your time and all of your insight.And the like I said, I said it earlier, you're just your passion is so clear. And we need more of that in the world. So how can families find you? 1:03:27 Yeah, so I'm on Instagram and Facebook. It's Courtney brunette advocate. I do a lot of advocating in my work. And also, professionally, I did a political advocating to for universal changing tables. So I just like the word advocate after it kind of sums up everything. And then changing tables. So I just like the word advocate after it kind of sums up everything. And then my website is Courtney brunette.com. And so they can connect with me there. I also have a blog that I put out information. So really like Instagram is where I'm active a lot because of thestories and different features they have that I like. But then there's a lot of resources for free to on my website so they can go there and check it out. And I

1:04:07 will all will be in the show notes. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thanks. Yeah, thank you