Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Dan Schawbel: During COVID, there was a 300% or more

increase in digital scales. Why? Because with people working

remote, you needed those digital skills in order to continue to

work. With these new ways of working, it impacts what skills

are more or less important and things are changing really fast.

Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

Eveline Oehrlich, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute. Our

podcast title today is "Tips from an Expert: Essential

Reasons for Upskilling. Upskilling, reskilling,

continuous learning, training, are really really hot topics and

we at DevOps Institute have done some significant work in this

topic area for the last five years. And while I am knee deep,

or actually I should say neck deep in the research for the

upcoming 2023 upskilling it report. I am thrilled to have

with me an expert, then Chevelle. Hey, Dan, how are you?

Dan Schawbel: So happy to be here with you.

Eveline Oehrlich: Excited, I'm thrilled looking at your bio.

I'm really honored to be with you on this podcast because I

know you talk to a lot of famous people. So let me give our

listeners a little bit of a review or an overview who Dan

is. So he is a New York Best Times bestselling author and the

managing partner of Workplace Intelligence, which is an award

winning thought leadership and research agency focused on the

world of work. He is the Best Selling Author of Speaker Your

Books Back to Human, Promote Yourself, and Me to That Oh, I

love that title. Through his company. Dan has led over 60

research studies with major brands including Amazon, Oracle

to Lloyd, American Express, and We Work. He is also hosting

himself a podcast he calls it it's The Five Questions Podcast,

where he interviews world class humans like Natalie Portman,

Richard Branson, Condoleezza Rice, Reed Hastings, again,

thank you so much for being with us. His Workplace Intelligence

Weekly, LinkedIn Newsletter is one of the most read in his

industry, with over 380,000 subscribers. And over 180,000

students have taken his LinkedIn learning course on leadership,

management and hybrid working, then, I just suggested to both

of my daughters to take one of your courses in LinkedIn. So

hopefully, they will follow my advice. Again, welcome for being

with us today.

Dan Schawbel: So happy to be here, and what a really

important relevant topic.

Eveline Oehrlich: So let's drive, dive into it right away.

And just to share with you, Dan, our listeners are folks in IT,

such as DevOps folks, developers, IT operations, site

reliability engineers, security, folks, technologists, and

practice practitioners. But we also have leaders. And we might

have in sometimes do get some C level folks on our call on our

podcast. And I think we also sometimes get folks outside of

business, in it in the other areas of an organization. And

just again, our recent, as I mentioned earlier, upskilling. I

team Sherway. So showed us a variety of challenges around

skill gaps, which continue. And we found that the biggest skill

gaps actually using the roles of the developer in IT operations,

and in a leadership, and again, for those who are listening in

look for the upcoming report. But then I would love to hear

your thoughts on the skill gap topic, we read it everywhere.

Are we ever going to see a better balance between what

skilled individuals we have? And what do we need?

Dan Schawbel: I think the top three biggest workplace trends

right now are the skills gap and labor shortage. Both of them are

intertwined course because if you can't find people with the

right skills, you can't fill jobs, and therefore it stunts

the corporate growth while being in remote slash hybrid work,

right? And everything is very intertwined. So for instance,

during COVID, there was a 300% or more increase in digital

skills. Why? Because with people working remote, you needed those

digital skills in order to continue to work right. So I

think that with these new ways of working it impacts what

skills are more or less important and things are

changing really fast. Over the years. I've looked at kind of

the skills gaps, what skills are more in demand less in demand

from a heart and soul upskill standpoint, which we're going to

be talking about, but one of the things that's really been

interesting recently, even with kind of the economic downturn is

there's still 11 million unfilled jobs just in America.

So we still have the skills gap, despite, you know, over 100,000,

you know, tech workers being laid off. And if you go into

those numbers, which is really interesting, about 60% of tech

workers don't even work in the tech industry. So it's very

interesting economic climate. And regardless of, you know, all

the layoffs that are happening, there are still positions that

companies, you know, can still can't fail, because they can't

find the available talent with these skills. And one of the

ways that companies are augmenting this and filling

these gaps is not even by hiring humans, sometimes it's by using

automation, right. And so I think, whether it's today or in

the future, more and more every single year, jobs are being

augmented by artificial intelligence, right, like look

at chat GPT, like more and more people are using that were using

chat GPT, along with human voice to better create content now in

a more efficient way. And so think about these new AI

technologies, we'll talk more about this as well, are kind of

offsetting some of the skills gap and augmenting positions.

And therefore, potentially, when we talk about skills, we're

talking about a revolutionary change, whether you're an hourly

worker or a salaried worker, these new technologies are going

to reshape how you work and live and do your job. So I think that

that is something that, you know, we have to take seriously,

because if a company can't find humans to fill roles, then

they're starting to look to technology. And over the past

three years during those pandemic conditions, with that

labor shortage that continues till today, the investment in

this type of technology, multiplied more so than that, I

think what what's really fascinating about the skills gap

is that companies are now relying more on certifications,

you know, even though they're still relying on degrees and

degrees are important, you know, because they need to expand

their talent pool in order to recruit their jaw. A lot of

these companies are dropping the four year degree requirements.

And that's been a trend for the past maybe five or so years. So

we call it the unorthodox hire. And then the other thing, the

biggest companies are doing this l&d pledge, which I've been

following. And you know, one of our clients is Deloitte. And

they just did a, a while being pledged for 1.4 billion. Another

client is Amazon 1.2 billion a centers 200 million, at&t was

actually the first to do this from my records at 1 billion.

And so there's been a huge investment in this space,

because it's not just looking at the skills of today. But the

skills of tomorrow, which are driven by advancements in

technology, and new markets that these organizations need to get

to. And because it's easier to kind of rescale and retrain and

upscale people who are current workers, rather than pay more

money to hire external workers, which also takes more time

hiring internally takes a shorter amount of time. And one

of the best examples during COVID, which I thought was

fascinating and brilliant was from Verizon. So what they did

was because of COVID, a lot of the retail stores shut down. And

therefore all those sales reps within those retail stores could

have been unemployed. But what they did was they retrain them

to be call center employees, because they were getting way

more of an uptick from the call center. So basically, they see a

ton of money by week, retraining and rescaling their current

workforce for jobs that were more in demand. At that time, of

course, things have kind of shifted back a bit with people,

you know, going back and being sales reps, but at the time

again, you know, it's a shift in labor. And the other thing too,

what I saw, which I thought was really interesting is

industries, sharing talent, meaning like a, a clothing

retail store that wasn't doing well and had too many employees,

basically helping and partnering with, you know, a pharmacy to

bring those skills and that talent over to them because they

needed that work, again, non competitive, but kind of this

new thing that I had never seen before. And then the reason why

these persist is really, because there is also a disconnect

between our education system and the needs of organizations. So

you know, it's very hard for education to kind of stay

relevant and pump out, you know, students that have the right

skills at the right time, it's hard to change that curriculum

fast enough to keep up with everything that's going on. So a

lot of people graduate, and they almost become kind of irrelevant

in that market after graduation. So they're paying all this

money, and then they're developing skills that might not

be as relevant. So more of the need is coming on companies,

companies, in my opinion, to becoming the post secondary

universities. So again, like with that investment, like I

said, you know, over a billion dollars of many of these

companies, they're taking on a lot of the slack, a lot of

teachers who have left the education system are now

becoming curriculum designers at companies. So that's a huge

shift to right burn. They're burned out in the school system.

And they're like, Well, I still want to make money make a

living. And then the demand for for more l&d within companies is

shooting up. So they're moving into organizations to be part of

l&d. And then from our study, we just did a study of 1500 hourly

workers and 1500 salaried workers in the US with Amazon.

And what we found was that 78% of employees are concerned, they

lack the skills they need, and 71% they lack education to

advance in their careers. And so this is this is an ongoing

problem that is not going to be solved this year or next. But

it's something that we have to all wrap our heads around.

Eveline Oehrlich: And the great news is that we see from our

research that sea level and leaders in organizations, and

you mentioned quite a few of them are seeing this finally,

and I want to say a hallelujah, right? Because that's really

most important to that. You've highlighted quite a few things

here, which fantastic, I would love to dive in deeper. But I

have another question, which is something I want to ask you. So

we do this research around these different skill domains, human

technical leadership skills, process and framework skills.

And as you mentioned automation, because that's a big part of

what we do in it, and I've been in it forever, I know nothing

else. But in terms of these different domains, we are seeing

a little bit of a shift from year to year, sometimes

automation becomes more important than process than

human. I think in the COVID years, human skills were really,

really important. This year, the ranking is process skills,

technical skills, then human skills. But we also found this

year that leadership skill and the domain was for the first

time the fourth highest must have skill domain. And we'll

elaborate more on that in the report. We also know from our

community, and from the work I've done as an industry analyst

that there are a variety of skill gaps at the leadership

level. So having said that, skill gaps, leadership and

leadership skills, what's your reaction to this finding?

Dan Schawbel: So I've studied most in demand skills from hard

and soft kill perspective, since I believe 2013, when I did a

study with American Express on, you know, the most in demand and

hardest to fill positions when it comes to jobs, and then

skills etc. And what I found is, it's typically, you know, you

know, and more recently, actually, management skills,

leadership skills, communication skills, customer service, and

sales skills. So, and again, these all kind of blend into

each other in a sense, right. So like, clearly, like, if you're

not a good communicator, it's pretty hard to be a good

salesperson as, as one example, customer service again,

community. So communication really cuts across everything.

So is, is typically ranked very high. I do think that a lot of

leaders over the past three years were kind of burned out, a

lot of people were in, there's a big talk with executives that

I'm speaking with a lot of, especially managers, middle

managers, kind of set up to fail, they didn't really have

the necessary training and and that's led to a lot of the

issues we have. And for the frontline employees, that's why

a lot of my courses really focus on frontline managers, because

they're underserved, from a leadership development and

management perspective, because, you know, it's not like they

went to school and learned how to manage a hybrid or remote

workforce, right? Or we're had to, you know, you know, almost

act like a therapist in the workplace, because people are

dealing with all these well being mental health type

behavioral problems. So there's all these things that managers

didn't really have to think about before that are now at the

forefront, right. Like, I always think that everything we always

have taken for granted in the workforce, kind of the human

skills, if you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, is now at

the forefront, right? Like safety and security, like when

we didn't really talk about that in the past, maybe in

warehouses, maybe in other other types of areas where workforce

injuries are usually higher, but in general, we took it for

granted, especially knowledge workers, and now this is most of

what we think about, you know, if we go back to the office, do

they have, you know, the necessary protocols, etc. So,

these type of conversation have kind of risen. The way I think

about hard and soft skills are, you know, soft skills are

somewhat consistent. So whether it leadership's one or

communications one, you know, they're all kind of intersected

and they're all very you we always need them, there's always

going to be demand for them and those are things that are

consistent, whereas like hard skills, for instance, you know,

over the past year, you know, software development, SQL, you

know, finance, Python, Java have been, you know, some of the

biggest skills you know, that are, you know, where you know

they're hiring the most for, but, you know, this could change

year over year based on news Technology is based on, you

know, irrelevant software programs, all these different

things, right. And I'm not going to talk like, I'm the expert at

programming languages, but I will say that, you know, it's,

you're more likely to see changes in hard skills over

time. And in the speed at which those are going to change, it's

going to be more rapid than soft skills that again, are, you

know, there's a lot of overlap. And these are things that in

order to kind of be a human in society personally or

professionally, they're important, right, like

leadership skills, like that's still important in your personal

life in a way, right. And so I think that and communication

skills, so I think that yeah, hard skills a little bit more

volatile communication skills a little bit more consistent. And

then the top five of the soft skills are have been pretty

consistent over the years, but order has changed, but still,

it's top five is top five, like, these are the ones you clearly

have to focus on. And then in terms of upscaling, you know,

when it comes to these type of skills, you know, peer led

learning, coaching, mentoring, again, you know, a lot of

managers are kind of set up to fail. So the rise of, you know,

coaching kind of programs has been huge, there's a lot more

companies that are kind of tackling that right now, because

they see that gap. But for all levels, like oh, it's almost

like the coaching for executives is now something that, you know,

managers and middle managers have to have to get as well. And

so I think that leadership is very situational as well, as

well as all the soft skills. So in order to develop them, you

need to, you know, be in different situations and

practice them and tweak to become a better leader.

Eveline Oehrlich: So a lot more active than passive learning. I

think what I want to hear you say, is that correct?

Dan Schawbel: And I think it's on the individual, I think it's

on the manager, I think it's on mentors, and I think it's on the

C suite. And I think, you know, I think it's across the board.

It's not just, it's the individuals responsibility, but

it's the culture, it's yes, all these facets to make that into

that individual a better leader, it's not just them, like,

because you could be a great leader, but an organization that

doesn't respect your leadership qualities or promote you or

support you, and then you're gonna fail anyways. So I do

think that the organization plays a big role.

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Eveline Oehrlich: I mean, I've been if I think back of my

career, I have been in a very large technology company in it

at the time coming out of the University with a Master's and

really I had that active learning by being a leader being

coached by another leader, that was really quite, quite

fantastic. And that's many, many years ago. And I don't want to

say what year because it will date me, and we'll just

continue. Thank you. Those were great ideas. Now. We also found,

we every year, we ask, Where are folks relative to the upskilling

programs, and you mentioned that there is a significant amount of

investment. We see companies like Deloitte, for example, or

ServiceNow, those are some companies in our space have done

or Infosys is another one, they have implemented great programs

to upskill and rescale. But we also see that there is a

challenge for many organizations, and this is

within our research, they're stuck somewhere in their

assessment state. They're assessing their programs, and

they're not getting them over the hump to actually get them

out. Right. And so in this, this economic condition we're in and

it is a challenge, right? What do you see relative to the

economic conditions in terms of the budgets and the plans for

upskilling program development? Will the efforts continue? Will

they sustain? Will they slow down? What's your crystal ball?

Say, when you look into that, then,

Dan Schawbel: You know, a lot of it depends on competing for

talent and where the gaps are. So a company that has more

unfilled positions that's, you know, struggling right now

that's, you know, trying to compete in their market, they're

more likely to make those type of investments and acquisitions.

But other companies maybe not so much, and then depends on

company size, in terms of in terms of the investment as well.

So that's always a variable. But I do think that especially young

people are demanding more of, of learning development

opportunities and career advancement, you know, as they

always have, right, but I think well, one of the things we asked

in the Amazon study was, you know, how does this impact your

willingness to stay within an organization relief right and

74% of millennials and Gen z's, are likely to quit this year due

to a lack of skill development opportunities. So clearly, like,

you know, younger people, and we've seen this over time, too,

the younger you are, the more likely you are to demand more

learning and development, you know, initiatives and programs

or curriculum, right, because you're just starting out in your

career, you're just thirsty to learn as much as you can.

Whereas, typically, again, you know, this, you know, this is

not for everyone. But you know, if you're, when you're much

older in the workforce, you're probably you're probably more

settled and your job, you're maybe a leader, you know, you

know, so you might not be doing the day to day work. So that's

just how it's been. And in terms of offerings that we looked at,

basically found that these employees, not just Gen Z and

millennials, but all employees say that they really benefit or

they could really benefit from these Allen l&d programs that

their company's currently offering. But they don't have

access to those programs like they wish they did. And so some

of those programs include free or partial coverage of tuition,

training programs in other areas of the business, because there's

been a huge push for the adaptable workforce and moving

horizontally, not just vertically within an

organization, and then networking opportunities. So

just about about half of employees have access to all

three of those. So, you know, employees recognize that this is

beneficial. They don't have as much access to it, maybe it's

because of seeing lack of seniority, which kind of goes

against the whole thing of everything I just told you,

right? Because if, you know, by the time you have seniority, you

might not want them as much, right? So I think that there's a

disconnect there. And it just shows you there is a lack of

preparation in college. And we had studied that for years and

years and years, we interviewed people as young as 16 years old

to kind of look at that, and their careers prospects and how

they saw the world. So I do think that I do think that that

there, there's a gap in learning between college and employer.

And I think there's a gap between employer and employee,

especially entry level employ in terms of the skills they need

and the access to the curriculum. And the the need for

this is going to continue to increase, I think is going to

get to the government level, because it's, it's kind of that

dire. So I do think that governments will have to make an

investment in their population, so that they have those skills,

because again, like what we're going to eventually face year

over year is more technology permeating our lives, and

therefore the elimination partially or fully of jobs, and

therefore, the need to upskill and retrain the population, not

just employers retraining their their employees is going to be huge.

Eveline Oehrlich: You know, something I wanted to add at

this point is we have a lot of ambassadors, we have over 200

Ambassadors, I think today who are volunteers who help us on

content and training and doing all kinds of things. And some of

them actually are engaged in coaching and taking the

knowledge over to universities and schools and things like

that. It's quite honorable to see those folks. I just wanted

to point that out. But the the points you made, relative to how

folks are maybe not necessarily having access and so on is kind

of a lead into my next question. We found that in many cases,

when we asked about upskilling, programs that are service taker

said, There is no time of course in it, that's always the top

issues are we need to solve a problem, we need to get the code

out we need whatever, right? Close that cybersecurity hole

which just opened up, whatever. But there was also no budget and

there's no leadership approval, which are, unfortunately, still

the top issues for the folks we've surveyed, as I said, and

we've seen a significant percentage of people also say

that they invest their own time and money into upskilling. And

rescaling. So you've alluded to those already. But I want your

advice for our listeners, those who are in the spots where they

say, I don't have budget, my leadership does not approve, I

really don't have time, and I really don't want to invest my

own money. What should these folks do? Any advice?

Dan Schawbel: You know, you got to find that this is where it

gets tough, right? Because I was trying to think of advice for

employees, but my real advice is for employers. And the reality

is you have to make time you have to do the budget. You have

to do the mentoring, you have to you know, have the company

invest in maybe a portal, you know, that has a curriculum for

them to take just something where they can get those skills.

And so my advice is mostly for the employers because if an

employee doesn't you know, is not able to have time they you

know, not everyone wants to sacrifice their way And, and

obviously, the demands of their job are really high, then the

employers have to give and build in skill development as part of

their work day. And instead of having the employee pay for it,

because again, once the economy changes, again, part of what the

organizations compete on is not just compensation or health care

or flexibility, but also learning and development

opportunities, especially for the younger generations. So I do

think that organizations need to focus on creating a culture of

learning, I call it like a culture of shared learning where

people are organically mentoring and supporting each other, and

then have have the leaders I think, leaders, because again,

the higher up you go, the less likely you are to take these

classes and kind of upskill I think leaders, you know, should

build in time to become better leaders, like you identified

that leadership is a skill that's really needed right now.

And therefore, I think leaders need to take these courses and

kind of get educated and whatnot, and maybe go to

executive to executive ed classes or whatever they need to

do, that's going to work best in how they, how they specifically

learn to advance become better leaders, because then that's

going to signal that learning is, is something culturally,

that's okay. And then, you know, obviously, having the budget and

the support is going to be important for getting employees

involved to follow suit. So I do think the other way I've seen a

lot of organizations handle this is to show learning paths to

promotion, and advancement through skills. So just say,

Hey, if you learn these skills, this is what's keeping you from

getting more money or to get a promotion or or title. So if you

learn these skills, by taking these courses and practicing

this at work, you're more you're you know, you're set up to

advance, I think that's something that can be very, very

useful as well.

Eveline Oehrlich: One of the things we've been, I want to

say, I don't want to say batching. But discussing in the

leadership team at DevOps Institute is the ROI of

upskilling. So that we can actually share some details with

those folks who don't step up to the plate and allow and enable

their employees. So that's some work to come. But I know we have

a few minutes left, and I have two more questions for you. The

first one is human skills, you call them soft skills, I call

them human skills doesn't really matter. Everybody knows what

we're talking about, cannot be certified. But how have you seen

others? How have you seen folks to improve their human skills?

Besides, you said, practicing and having coaches, but on the

human side? It's a little bit difficult, right? Like, I could

not step up. I couldn't imagine some of my colleagues step up

and say, Hey, can you help me on some of those human skills? Any

ideas? You have?

Dan Schawbel: Yes, I did. So I think the best way to build

human skills is for people to just have more conversations. So

for instance, my human skills, even for doing interviews, years

ago, weren't that strong. But you know, after 3000,

interviews, you know, having an organic conversation within a

podcast format, or any other format becomes much easier

because of experience and comfort, doing it many, many

times. And then, you know, learning from other people

watching other interviews and other people how they

communicate, and then kind of adjusting to make my

communication style, you know, better. So I do think that

stepping outside of your comfort zone, continuing to practice put

yourself in as many situations where you can practice these

soft skills, or as you say, human skills, making it a

priority for you getting feedback from other people, you

know, after meeting Was I too aggressive? How was my tone? I

was my body language, should I communicate this effectively?

You know, it's asking those type of questions to solicit feedback

from your manager that can be very helpful. observing others,

like I was saying, you know, if you want to, you know, you know,

Google like the top best communicators, and then watch,

you know, YouTube videos of them, and see how they watch a

TED Talk. For instance, they are trained to be good

communicators, especially at the annual conference. So you get a

sense of, oh, this is what they're doing. Right? This is

how they tell stories. So it's, I think it's observing, it's

putting yourself in the situation, getting a mentor or

getting feedback from your manager, I think all of those

can really help you be better.

Eveline Oehrlich: Great ideas that made me just remember

something we used to do at the same company I was talking

earlier about with the Toastmasters. For those

sessions, we it was actually more for improving our public

speaking. And many of us got up at really early to do that

outside of our day to day job, but it helped us because we

actually opened up almost like to the folks who were listening

in to give me feedback on all of those things, and then had to do

with human skills. And I think, I think back to those times,

some of those were painful, particularly if you had to get

some feedback. You didn't like, but I for myself did a lot of

Galala learning there anything. Anything I got there was great.

All right, we're almost to the end, give us a short summary of

the type of work which is done at Workplace Intelligence

because I know you are there a lot. Did you do a lot of work

there? Give us just a quick like, two or three lines of what

type of work do you guys do?

Dan Schawbel: Yeah, so the type of work we do is we work on big

research projects, and campaigns focus on every single workplace

topic, including upscaling. So we've done 66 So far with, you

know, another five to seven more coming this year. So it's a ton

of research goal is to kind of connect the dots and you know,

help brands tell their stories through thought leadership

content. Also, we have a newsletter, like you were saying

earlier, Workplace Intelligence weekly on LinkedIn, you know,

it's continues to grow. And we again, use that as a mechanism

to, you know, talk about different workplace topics and

tie them in to what's relevant in today's society, today's

working world. So we're always trying to do that, you know,

trying to think about, hey, what's the most relevant, you

know, type topics, and then working with companies to

develop content to then link to those topics.

Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. And I have been signed up for that

LinkedIn newsletter, and I get it, it's part of my reading. If

I skip it, I miss it, because there was always very good

things in there. So to our listeners, I highly recommend go

there. Okay, now I have a fun question has nothing to do with

upskilling. But what do you do for fun if you don't do your

research and your work or write books?

Dan Schawbel: Aside from this being fun? As you can tell, I

love this stuff. Yeah, I mean, you know, walks, runs,

traveling, you know, I'm going to be going to Central Europe

this year, and back to Greece and Italy. And, you know, so I,

you know, I like to kind of get out there and explore the world

and, you know, big avid reader every day. Yeah, speak to Pete

speaking to people practicing those soft skills, which again,

helps you personally and professionally. And yeah, and

you know, I love listening to music and, you know, different

shows on TV.

Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic. If you make it to the southern part

of Germany, just ring the bell. I have a nice cup of coffee and

adult beverage or whatever you'd like love to take you out for

dinner. This has been a great conversation, then. We have been

talking to Dan Schawbel , New York Times bestselling author

and a managing partner of Workplace Intelligence. Dan,

again, thank you so much for joining me today on Humans of

DevOps Podcast.

Dan Schawbel: Thank you again, it's a pleasure.

Eveline Oehrlich: Humans of DevOps podcast is produced by

DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia

pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and Brandon Lay. I'm Humans of

DevOps Podcast, executive producer Eveline Oehrlich. If

you would like to join us on a podcast, please contact us at

Humans of DevOps podcast at DevOpsInstitute.com. Boy, that's

a mouthful. I'm Eveline Oehrlich, talk to you soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of

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