Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Dr. Nikki Robinson: You know, it can be it was almost there was

this friction between IT and security. And then when I got

really interested in specifically vulnerability

management and sort of made the hop over to security, I started

seeing those same patterns but from the security side.

Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to Humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

Eveline Oehrilch, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute. Our

topic today is focused on Cybersecurity: What You Should

Know. Today we have with us Dr. Nikki Robinson. Let me give you

a little bit about Nikki and her background. I of course, did

some digging into what she has done and give me some time. So

Dr. Robinson, earned a Doctor of Science in cybersecurity has

several industry certifications and is a security architect at

IBM right now and also an adjunct professor. She has more

than 10 years of experience in IT Ops. So Nikki that we have in

common before moving into the security field about three years

ago. She studied vulnerability chaining concepts and completed

her PhD in human factors to combine psychological and

technical aspects to improve security programs. She has a

passion for teaching, obviously, yes, she's an adjunct and

mentoring others on risk management, network defense

strategies, and digital forensics and incident response.

As I said, she's a security architect and has technical

experience and continuous monitoring, risk management,

digital forensics and incident response. She is a speaker at

many conferences on a variety of topics from human factor

security, engineering, malicious website, Grant, graphing and Dev

SecOps. She's also the co host of a podcast titled Resilient

Cyber Podcast with the goal to discuss variety of cybersecurity

and it with many, many subject experts, and many of you might

have listened to her podcast. Finally, one more important

thing. She is a volunteer speaking for InfraGard also

Women in Cyber Chapters, which is why size I think Information

Systems Security Association, which is ISSA, and Cyber Jitsu

Organization, welcome to our podcast. Nikki,

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Thank you so much for having me today.

Eveline Oehrlich: Very excited that you're here. Now, the first

thing you have to talk about is Cyber Jutsu. Can you help me on

that one?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Sure. Yeah, this is actually a this is a

great organization that they their focus is really a to focus

on getting women into the cybersecurity field. So they're

working to close the gender gap. They're trying to help mentor

young women to get into cybersecurity. And they host all

kinds of events, they do webinars, they do workshops on

everything from Python Programming, and then they do

cyber competitions and capture the flags or CTFs. So they do a

lot of different events to sort of help help encourage young

women to get into cybersecurity. And and they host a lot of

conferences as well.

Eveline Oehrlich: Are they global? Or are they are also

regional events?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: I think I believe both. I know that they

do a lot of regional because I think they have different

chapters, sort of like women in cyber or Rhesus. But But yeah,

so they do have a lot of regional events.

Eveline Oehrlich: Okay, worth checking into. Super. Thank

you.. So as you can imagine, when I did research on your, on

your background, and what you do, and all, all the wonderful

things you have been through and have been studying, and there

was a lot of things I was like, Oh, I would love to talk to you

about that. I would love to talk to you about that. But, of

course, we cannot cover these all. So there are two key things

we want to cover today. First, I want to dive a little bit into

your book minds, the tech, the tech gap, addressing the

conflicts between IT and security. And then second, of

course, because I am a woman and I know we have some women on the

on the show. I want to I want you to share your experience as

women in technology. So those are the two things we're honing

in. I hope you are ready for that. I know you are ready for

that. Thank you. So let's get to the book first. I think that's

the most important one because I think it was published in

October of 22. So not that far, and not that long ago. As I

said, the book was called, or is called Mind the tech gap,

addressing the conflicts between IT and security. So first of

all, congratulations to the application. Fantastic. I think

I'm going to order it because that topic is something which is

also I have something I've researched in my career over the

years. Now in the book, you address, and I quote from the

book from a book review, you're saying, or it says, the long

standing challenges between it and cybersecurity teams, and

you're exploring the different job functions, goals,

relationships, and other factors that might impact how it and

cyber security teams interact. Give us a little bit of an

overview of the book, because I think there are some powerful

things in there, which I would like people to kind of listen

to. So enticing them to actually buy a book, and I'm not trying

to sell your book, I think this is an important piece. Most

folks have not even thought about, and I want you to do a

little bit of a review.

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, thank you,, it's funny, because I'd

had this idea for this book for at least five years now, even

before I got into cybersecurity. So when I was on the IT side of

the house, you know, and working with sort of my security

counterparts on assessments or audits, and literally sitting

through four or five hour long meetings on, you know, security

controls and configurations. And so I was sort of getting this

idea of you it can be it was almost there was this friction

between IT and security, because it was like, Oh, we're having

another audit, or oh, we have another assessment or this or

that, or all security does this or security does that. And then

when I got really interested in specifically vulnerability

management, and sort of made the hop over to security, I started

seeing those same patterns. But from the security side, you

know, seeing sort of the frustration, and the, it won't

do this, or I'm trying to work with development, and we're

trying to get this done. And it's difficult, or it's

challenging. And so that was really what sort of even having

that idea but coming into security and saying, Oh, I'm

seeing this, you know, sort of this frustration and this

friction from both sides. You know, we're both having

challenges working with each other. And it's not because, you

know, we both have important missions, we both have important

goals, but most of the time, those are somewhat conflicting.

So having teams that have conflicting goals and missions,

makes it really challenging to, you know, sort of get together

and make these things happen. And so that was really what

spurred the the idea of the book, and I wanted to dive into

sort of, from a historical context to what traditional job

roles look like, you know, 20 years ago, and how we built, you

know, IT teams and how they look now, and how that sort of plays

into why relationships can sometimes be fractured between

the teams, and ultimately, that that leads to concerns with

risk, you know, and risk management and how do you how do

you manage risk with the people that you know, need to work

together? So that's really sort of the spirit of the book, and,

you know, hoping to shed some light on why these challenges

exist. And then, you know, at the end of the book, I provide

sort of a roadmap for Hey, these are the questions you need to

start asking yourself and your teams, depending on the type of

job role that you have.

Eveline Oehrlich: I love that last part, you said, I think

that is essential for folks listening in having a roadmap to

understand what what can they actually do that actionable

advice, because sometimes, you know, there are books out there,

and I'm done with it. And I put it aside and I'm thinking, Okay,

now what? Yeah, right. It's like, okay, I'm not really sure

I understand, but I don't know what so that is beautiful. Now,

one thing you were under, in the book review, which talks about

that also, of course, you are honing into into something

called empathy, and emotional intelligence. And that is

something which I have keen interest in, as I've done

research for the DevOps Institute on upskilling for the

past five years. And you would not be surprised that I tell you

that the human skills, are there significant gaps there within

it, and they don't go away these and they're particularly around,

you know, having that empathy, having these inter interpersonal

skills and really working and developing collaboration and

coordination with others. So that is quite interesting.

Interesting. And of course, there is action, which means

people should upskill and human skills and we've been kinda like

a preacher pin saying that, but why is it so hard? Why is it so

hard for a reverse it people I'm an IT person, I think I have

human skills plenty. And my kids would tell AMI you do, ma'am.

But why is it so hard sometimes for folks in either on the

security side or on the IT side, no matter what role to think

about that human skill and and adding or working on them? What

are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, I think it's such an important

question to ask because and it's a question I started asking

myself too, because I, you know, working in it, and security for

almost 15 years now, it's one of those things I haven't seen as

part of it programs, traditional IT, whether it's academic or

certification programs, and insecurity as well, I know that

there are some universities out there that teach emotional

intelligence in their IT programs, but I think that's a

newer thing. And I just haven't seen as many programs that tout,

you know, emotion, emotional intelligence, empathy,

relationship, building, all of those pieces that we need to

sort of operate in these big teams and in these big

organizations. So I think the first piece of it is sort of the

education component, in that it's not really taught to us,

you know, we're taught Python, and we're taught Pope

programming, and we're taught, you know, SQL and all these

other things, but we're not really taught well, what does

that mean to somebody else? You know, if I'm on the IT side, or

if I'm a developer, what does that mean to security? And I

think it's really important on the security side, to have that

understanding, and that empathy for what other teams are working

on. Because if I can't speak to a developer and understand, you

know, what they're going through, or what they need to

do, you know, what their deadlines or requirements are,

it's going to be really difficult to work together. So I

think that's part of the challenges is we don't really

have this educational component, it's, it's not a part of any

certifications that I've at least seen, you know, this sort

of emotional intelligence piece. And I've really, especially when

I was doing research for the book really came across a lot of

leadership and management books that talk about emotional

intelligence. I had a really hard time finding anything out

there, whether it was a book, or anything like that, that could

be used as a textbook or used, you know, sort of as a guide

that talks about emotional intelligence, really, for

practitioners. You know, there's there's some stuff out there,

but there really isn't a lot. And I think that that's, that's,

you know, one of the biggest challenges is we encourage our

technical people to go for certifications to go for

technical certifications, you know, that that's a great thing.

But we don't encourage them to apply empathy to what they're

doing. And so I think that's, that's probably where that that

gap came from.

Eveline Oehrlich: Here, here, here, I'm hoping that my co

partner is listening into this podcast. If not, I will point

her for that, because we have been saying that we need to

start figuring out how can we actually help our community

members to expand on their existing human skills or build

upon the ones they have? Or start working on if they don't

think they have any? I think the other thing I was just speaking

to Gallup CEO, he was talking about the engagement of

individuals in the in a job well, today has been really,

really low. But one of his points was that as we are

lacking, or as we are not developing these human skills,

work becomes less fun, not just because of its in cybersecurity,

or its insecurity or in the DevOps, or wherever. But because

it's so difficult to bridge across in, we can only talk

tech, and we could talk processes, but we really don't

have that connectability anymore. Mostly, maybe it's

gotten worse, because of the pandemic. He was saying that

they're doing a lot of work at the Gallup as well to start

assessing and developing that. So it is a great opportunity for

us. Thank you for that. All right, let's shift gears a

little bit. The clock is always ticking when we have great

conversation. So I want to switch a little bit towards the

topic of cybersecurity. And particularly, where do you think

it stands today, in terms of its priority from what you've seen?

And from who you've been visiting with? Where does it

stand in terms of priority in executives, leaders, investors

and individual contributors? Because I think there is, at

least from the research I've done, there might be a shift and

which is good. But I was curious what your thoughts are on that.

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, I would absolutely agree that

there's been a shift and I think, a shift really in the

last year. You know, I think this it all really sort of

started with solar winds. You know, that? I think because it

had so much media attention, you know, it wasn't just Oh, random

data breach here or random cyber attack here. Solar Winds

affected lots of different types of organizations, lots of

different domains, and it became a business risk. You know, it

wasn't just a cyber risk anymore or an incident It was, Oh, my

business is in trouble. And not just from a security

perspective, but a lot of the people that consumed and use

SolarWinds were IT operations groups. And so it that of not

having that tool in place, you know, having to find an

alternative or not having visibility to your systems or,

you know, the potential of an incident, and then you can, you

know, it becomes a snowball effect to the business. And I

think that was really what sort of, at least opened people's

eyes to, oh, there's, there's sort of this cascading effect

when there is an incident that sort of, I think, started to

change people's minds. And then I think blog for J was another

big one, partially because it got so much media attention, but

also because it opened people's eyes to open source software,

how do how are we actually developing? And how can we

support developers, while still making sure that we understand

the risk. So I think it was sort of an eye opener for both

developers and for security professionals to say, oh, we

need to really understand how this is going to work, and how

we can support open source software, but by you know,

understanding what that means to our risk. So I think, as far as

what those things sort of started to change people's

minds, I do think a lot more leadership boards, they're much

more interested in in having sort of cybersecurity expertise,

at least available as consultants or advisors. So I

would say there's definitely a shift in the industry as far as

leadership goes. And I think they see the benefit of

cybersecurity, not just being, you know, a security assessment,

or an audit or an inhibitor, but more of a, hey, if we work

together with the cyber team, with our developers, with our T

with our leadership, we can help provide strategic, you know, we

can help with those five year plans, we can help make sure

that five years out 10 years out that the business is healthy,

thriving and resilient, especially towards cyber

attacks. Because if if an organization isn't resilient,

let's say for example, ransomware, I think that's

another really big one that's hit organizations and the amount

of cost associated with ransomware. Plenty businesses

have shut down because they've been hit by ransomware. And it

was so costly that they couldn't recover. So I think I think

those kinds of situations have really changed how people feel

and now they're starting to seek out security advisors and not

just from a, Hey, what is our secure configuration look like?

Or how do we pass this audit? But hey, how do we, how do we

plan our strategic it and development vision with a

cybersecurity, you know, professional there to help us?

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Eveline Oehrlich: So as a summary, I would say it is fair

to say that cybersecurity is a strategic line item for all of

those particular executives and leaders.

Dr. Nikki Robinson: I guess that is my hope I

Eveline Oehrlich: Lets frame it as a hope I love that. Yes,

Dr. Nikki Robinson: I hope so. Because I think there is there's

so much positivity, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to get

into cybersecurity, because it's it's not just cybersecurity, it

really is it and a function of technology. And so I think if we

can start to change that idea of, you know, I joke with

people, you know, I'm a security architect, but I really joke,

I'm really just an infrastructure architect. It's

security is, you know, security by design. But really what I'm

doing is helping to build environments that are secure.

And, and that's still in it a component of it. So I think, I

think it's starting to change. But yes, it's a lot of hope

there.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yep. You know, this is, this reminds me of

philosophical discussion we have had when I was at Forrester,

where we had a security and risk team and an infrastructure and

operations team. And of course, you know, enterprise architects,

application developers, CIOs. And I remember the folks from

the security and risk team, not wanting to do at the time, this

is 2018 When I left but at that time, they were doing their own

research. Of course, we always wanted to collaborate because

infrastructure and operations we have to have our heads out and

get stuck sometimes was in, in the nasty fixing the mess. And

we always had the conversation and and said, why do you why are

you in a separate group? Why are we not bringing us together into

a research? team so we can do things together? I don't think

that has happened. But But I think having the risk, sometimes

it takes, it just takes challenges which are so

overwhelming that people are enough pain that people are

changing. And I think one of the other factors and I'm curious

what your thoughts or is there a metric which executives should

have relative to that? I think it's some companies, a CEO

already has the resilience and sustainability. We're seeing ESG

as a topic come up quite a bit. But in your, in your mind,

should there be metrics for all of those folks around this

topic? Because it impacts like you said the business

significantly?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yes, absolutely. There's definitely

been a big push in the last two, three, maybe four years for

quantifying cyber risk, you know, really making it much

easier, I think, to digest, because it's interesting, I

think, when people talk about qualitative versus quantitative,

but this idea that if we can help quantify some of that risk,

make it easier to digest and help to, to help to show what

we're talking about, tell that story a little bit better. And

metrics, I think, when it comes to, you know, here's my, here's

my bias here, because I love vulnerability management, but,

you know, anything highly exploitable vulnerabilities, if

I'm using threat intelligence, what do I need to be concerned?

What are the top three concerns that I have? You know, so I

think breaking it down into smaller chunks. And, you know,

my, the bane of my existence are like 300 Page vulnerability

reports. And I think that's, you know, one of those big

challenges is don't send those 300 page, you know,

vulnerability reports. Let's let's break this down into

metrics that makes sense for leadership. That's, it's, it's

absolutely imperative, I think, to not just the cybersecurity

mission, but to the business mission, you know, to help break

those things down and make it easier to digest.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, absolutely. All right. Now, I

came across a fantastic short piece by Stefan Napo, who is the

VP cybersecurity director and global CFO, I group, SCB, that's

a French company, that doing a lot of small appliances, and

it's actually the world's largest manufacturer of

cookware, and I'm a cook so I love their products, but not

talking about the cookware but really talking about what Stefan

said he talked about the swarm cybersecurity or swarm

cybersecurity. And, of course, in DevOps and development, we

talk about swarming. Have you heard this term? I'm sure you

have any? If you haven't, and let's move on. But I am sure you

have your thoughts on that. Tell me tell me what you think when

that comes to your mind when I say swarm or cybersecurity.

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, so for, for me, swarming. I also

think about in a very it context, because, you know,

typically you have this tiered model, and that's sort of an

older model right of it. But if you let's say you have your

helpdesk, and then your systems administrators, and then your

senior sis admins or maybe engineering above that, but

instead of having these sort of siloed, tears, you have this

giving this power to, you know, in IT systems administrator that

can sort of help to resolve these things without taking up

the chain, because, you know, you don't learn anything that

way. So it's this more collaborative effort of, hey, I

think I know how to fix this, I'm going to do this. And then

if they need help, they can always ask for help, and the

team can work together, but it becomes more of this group

effort, instead of you know, hey, I've got this thing, I'm

gonna pass it to you, they'll pass the ticket to you, and then

to you and then to you. So instead of this becoming this

endless chain of, you know, what happened to my issue, you know,

becomes this more of a collaborative and teamwork type

effort. And so applying that to cybersecurity, I think about the

cyber color wheel, if you're familiar with that, this idea of

you know, you have red teams and blue teams, and then you start

talking about threat intel, and you have yellow teams and orange

teams and purple teams that are red and blue teams combined into

purple teams. And so you're building this more of a

collaborative effort, instead of saying, you know, I'm on the red

team, and I have a pen test. And I'm going to lob it over to the

blue team. And they're just going to have to figure it out

and becomes a collaborative effort. And the blue team can go

back to the red team and say, Hey, actually, we found these

additional things. Can you verify that for us? Can you

check to make sure that this is fixed? And so it becomes this

more of an open type of team instead of you know, just the

silos? Well, I'm on the red team, or I'm on the blue team.

Yep. You know, it's much more collaborative. And so I think

that's 100% the way forward there's a fantastic Stick. She's

on LinkedIn. Her name is marrow Vernon, she talks a lot about

purple teaming. And when I came across her and some of the

things that she's written about purple teaming, that's really

what started getting me thinking about swarming. Right. It's it's

a similar notion, right of collaboration and bringing

people together. But I think it's a big benefit to teams,

because one, it empowers your employee or your cyber

professional, or your developer. But it also improves their

skills. It allows them to learn something new, it improves

teamwork. And I think there's a big reduction in how long it

takes to identify and resolve specifically, you know, in a Red

Team Blue Team context, versus Hey, I have this 200 Page pen

test report, here you go, go ahead and figure it out, you

know, it becomes more of this, like, hey, we found this

vulnerability across 100 systems, can you guys work on

this, and we can see if we can get this fixed, and then we can

come back and retest. So So for me, it's all about

collaboration,

Eveline Oehrlich: super, we, I that reminded me of something I

did with again, a former colleague of mine, where we

looked at MTTR. And we found that not necessarily to

security, but we found that the largest amount of time, I think

it was 70% of time was found in the meantime to detect. And and

that was because everybody was looking down their own their own

pipe, right and their own data. So I think that's an additional

benefit, in terms of Meantime, detect at the pre at the

predecessor of swarming, but as you said, MTTR overall, because

we are bringing people together is an incredible impact has an

incredible impact reducing that. And that, again, reduces

business impact. So super. All right, let's shift a little bit,

we have about five minutes or so I want to cover two topics, one

the skill, and then I want to really get into your thinking on

the women in it, or women in tech. So the first one, let's

say I want to be successful in cybersecurity. And actually, I

did lose an analyst in my former role to the security and risk

team. And I was very sad loser, but she is a great analyst in

this space. But if I wanted to go into cybersecurity, and maybe

there's a focus on here who are wanting to switch, what do you

think are the necessary skill, maybe one or two to be

successful? Besides what we already talked about in terms

of, Hey, you gotta be having empathy. And so EQ, but what

else do you think are essential?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Yeah, I would say a lot of the skills

that I brought with me from it to cybersecurity, and you don't

have to have an IT background, to necessarily go into

cybersecurity, but I can say for me, it helped a lot. Because I

understand technology very well. Now, I would say troubleshooting

is a really, really big skill. And that's, you know,

troubleshooting, problem solving, being able to sort of

understand enough that you can figure out what's going on,

because that's, that's one of the big, big parts of

cybersecurity is typically you're handed, you know, a piece

of information, and you've got to go digging, and try to figure

out what's going on. And so I think that problems, problem

solving, troubleshooting, and natural curiosity, all three of

those sort of go hand in hand together this sort of, okay, let

me dig and try to figure out what this is. So I would say

that's the first and I know I said, three skills really, and

one that was sort of I was trying, it's kind of a cop out.

But that's sort of that. That's sort of how I would describe

that right problem solving as that big component there. I

would say the other really important skill, you know,

besides sort of that relationship building, and what

we call soft skills, would really be how, how do what was I

gonna say, how do how do we understand data. So data science

is a really important component of cybersecurity. And I've met a

lot of really great data scientists that have crossed

into cybersecurity and they are a huge asset, because they're

able to parse through all of this information that we've been

collecting in security with our sims for years and years and

years. And now we have data scientists to really help us.

One make that pipeline of data, easier to digest, easier to

bring in. But they also help us pull out the really important

information. They're helping us to leverage AI, machine learning

models and different techniques that we may not have had the

skills I say we, I may not have had the skills in before in data

science, but that's something in the last two years, I've learned

how important it is to sort of have those data science

principles in cybersecurity. So I would say you don't have to

know Python or machine learning in any sort of depth. But having

some of that understanding is really important. Can I give

three skills? Can I give one more? Of course you can. Okay,

one more I would say you know, since we're talking about

DevOps, right is the ability to communicate and work really well

with developers to be able to speak the language, if you have

some programming background, it's super helpful. Again, you

don't have to be a developer, but to be able to understand

enough that you can talk to a developer, when they're saying,

Hey, we have this requirement, we have to do this this way.

Let's figure out a new solution. So I think that sort of being

able to speak the language is really important.

Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. Fantastic. All right, our last

question, and then I have a fun question for you. But this one

is around women and technology, both of us have been in

technology, I have my own challenges. But this is not

about me. This is about you. What would you would love to

hear? What was the biggest challenge for you you faced? And

of course, how did you overcome it? If you're willing to share?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Absolutely, yeah, I would say the biggest

challenge I had, it was funny getting into it. You know,

starting on helpdesk, and sort of working my way up, I

actually, I had some really great mentors along the way, and

sort of, you know, working my way up in it. I think the

biggest challenge I honestly had was when I wanted to break into

cybersecurity, and I got so much pushback from my it friends on,

you know, why would you want to go into Security, you're never

going to be able to come back to it or, you know, you're just

going to be in security. And it was such, it was such an

interesting, I guess, sort of perspective that I had this sort

of, you know, you're not going to succeed in security, and

you're never going to be able to come back, you're you can never

cross the lines again, you know, it was this, like making it sort

of this like, well, you can't do both sort of a thing. That was a

big challenge, because I had to essentially go back and say,

Well, I can do this. And what I found was going on the

cybersecurity side, I actually am far more technical than I was

before I understand way more operating systems, I understand

development way better than I used to. And so I guess sort of

pushing through that barrier of a lot of people saying no, like,

No, you can't do this, No, you aren't going to be good at this.

No, you don't have the skill to do this. And really being given

a chance to show that I do that that was sort of tough that it

took me a couple of years to make that transition from it to

cybersecurity. And, you know, I had one very great mentor of

mine, Philip Culp, who gave me my first shot. And so, you know,

and then I was able to sort of go from there. But so I would

say that was the biggest challenge. But the biggest thing

that helped me was finding a great mentor and someone who was

willing to take a chance on me and for me to you know, show

them my skill. But yeah, that was that was pretty tough.

Eveline Oehrlich: Wow. Fantastic. Well, thanks to your

mentor for supporting you, and thanks to you for sticking it

through. That's quite impressive. So I have one more

question. I know you are very busy, and you do a lot of

things, but you must have some fun. What do you do for fun?

Dr. Nikki Robinson: Oh, yeah, I'd love this question. Yeah, I

actually, I I'm very big into fitness. Like I love all things,

outdoor activities, hiking and biking and running. So I love

I'm actually signed up for a couple triathlons. So I love

running and biking and swimming. And, and that's what I do for

fun.

Eveline Oehrlich: Wow. Wow, this has been a great conversation.

You and I could go on. I would love to stay connected. I think

there are some things maybe we want to do together.

Dr. Nikki Robinson: That would be great.

Eveline Oehrlich: Thank you so much for being on our podcast. I

really appreciate it. You are a wonderful, wonderful individual.

So thanks again. We have been talking to Dr. Nikki Robinson,

security architect, adjunct professor, volunteer and book

author, and many many other things again, Dr. Robinson or

Nikki, thank you so much for joining me today on Humans of

DevOps Podcast. For those who are listening. Yes. And for

those listening in make sure you check out the book Mind to Tech

Gap Addressing the Conflicts Between IT and Security Teams.

It is on my list order. I actually already pushed a button

on my Amazon. So this is great. Humans of DevOps podcast is

produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team

includes my good friend Julia, Pap, and our hardworking Brendan

Lay, thank you to both of those. I'm humans of DevOps podcast

executive producer Eveline Oehrlich. If you would like to

join us on a podcast, please contact us at this is a very

long name, but I'll read it out Humans of DevOps Podcast at

DevOpsInstitute.com. I'm Eveline Oehrlich, I'll talk to you soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of

DevOps Podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get

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