Welcome to alumni.

Live the podcast.

These are conversations with grand valley state university film and video

graduates about the industry, the film, video, major and alumni profiles.

Hello and welcome to this podcast, our latest episode with our special

guest, John Flis from WZZM 13.

He is the Marketing Director there.

John, why don't you introduce yourself.

Hello.

I am a graduate of Grand Valley 2002, and, uh I was in the

School of Communications there.

I am now Director of Marketing at Channel 13 WZZM in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

My background actually wasn't even in TV.

It was in movies.

And we will get into that.

I'm your host today.

I'm Jake weekend.

I'm also a GV film and video alum 2021.

And, the whole reason we're talking today is all about the world of broadcasting.

Something John and I have in common is that we both studied film and video.

We didn't really study news or broadcasting,

engineering, any of that stuff.

None of the nitty gritty particulars that go into what makes a newscast.

That's why we work in marketing and we'll get into that today and all

the details that goes into the study and field of marketing as it pertains

to, visual media like broadcast news.

So, John, why don't you walk us through your background, your history,

how you got to your position as a Director of Awesome, as you like to say.

I was a movie guy.

I started making movies when I was probably about eight years

old and just with like a little VHS camera around the house.

And I made movies all the way up through college, and that's

what I went to school for.

I was originally a math major,

Math major?

Yes, , I was like, oh, well I need something steady something regular.

And I love math.

I'm, I'm big into logic, math, that kind of stuff too.

What's your favorite field of math?

Like calculus, statistics?

Algebra?

Euclidian geometry?

I, I, I would say algebra was my favorite.

I did enjoy calculus and I took stats for fun in college.

Oh, for fun.

Yes.

Not many people will say they took stats for fun.

Yes.

I I took it then.

I enjoyed that one a lot too.

During my first semester or so, I was like, you know what?

I love math.

I'm enjoying this.

But I really wanna do film.

And if I, if that's what I want to do, then that's what I should do.

So you chose the, instead of going the practical route, like the stuff that

you were good at, like math, you chose to just follow your dreams, right?

Yes, yes.

And I did something similar, so I think that's great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, so that's what I, I just dove right in to film and focused on that.

And it was a great experience and actually happened to be walking

through Kirkoff one day between classes and there was an internship fair.

I was in competition for an internship out in LA and I wound up not getting it.

And I was, I was number two.

And so then I saw an internship fair going on and so I walk in Now

everybody's in their suits with their resumes all prepared, right?

I'm standing there in my Hawaiian shirt and cargo shorts

As a film major would be.

Yes and I was just walking around seeing what was out there and I saw

a representative actually from WZZM.

Oh, go figure.

So I got to talking and I asked what I needed to do to apply and

what was the position they were offering at that time?

It was an internship,

In what department?

In marketing.

It was a marketing internship.

Got it.

And so I was like, okay, why not?

Let's, let's try it out.

I had never written a commercial script.

So I asked them, Hey, what's a format that you want?

And I, I gave it to 'em and they, they liked what they saw.

And so they took me on and I did an internship.

And while I was there, I did a actual campaign that actually aired and I did

topicals, which you're very familiar with.

Yes, I am.

So that was really great.

And then, I was like, okay, that was nice, fun.

And went back to film.

And then,

So yeah, you dipped your toes in marketing for a little

bit, like as junior in college?

That was junior year.

Yep.

And then what.

So then we, we went to LA right?

At some point.

And you got into the, the film industry, correct?

Yes.

After I graduated, I moved out there with some friends and, worked out there.

I did all kinds of stuff.

I, I, I was doing some extra work, to make money and then working on, films.

And then I finally landed a post production job and that's what I was

working at for the most, most of the time until I decided to come back to Michigan.

I love the area.

That's my wife now, who is my girlfriend then was still there

here in Michigan, teaching,

love the area as in West Michigan, right?

Yes.

I love West Michigan.

That's why I went to Grand Valley.

And

because you were originally from Indiana?

Yep.

Right.

Originally from Indiana.

and so I came back, but you know, there, especially at that time, there was not a.

Film work Right.

In Michigan.

And one of the things I didn't like about the business was the unsteadiness of it.

You know, where you're, it's like a gig economy.

You know?

You're working on this film, you're working on that film.

Absolutely.

You know, it's, it's not like even fiction.

Work and tv, like that's even like less gig work than it is feature films.

I mean, that's just like someone made a gamble to make a movie and

you're there for , what is it, two months, three months of production.

And then there's like a little bit of pre and post, and then it's over and

then you have to go to the next thing.

And that probably, did that bog you down a little bit?

Yeah.

I do not like that.

I'm not that thrilled, which I, I discovered I was like,

uh, Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not,

you're a true nine to fiver.

Yeah.

I like, I like having a steady gig and that's why I like that

post place when I was out there

just editing.

Right.

I was doing color grading and Image cleanup, cuz this was in

the ages of the, where they first got into digital intermediates.

They're still shooting on film scanning things in, you had to clean up the

images, make 'em look pretty right, and then put 'em back onto film.

yeah.

That's , that's really tedious.

Yeah.

So that, that was, that was fun.

But, when I came back, Was looking in Michigan.

I'm like, what do I do?

And I was like, well, I had that TV experience and there's plenty

of TV stations in the area, right?

So I applied to those and using that, the stuff that I made, at my

internship plus my regular body of work,

right.

I had, multiple job offers and I had to just pick where I wanted to live and work.

Like which station?

In the area.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so that was nice.

And it, it was interesting because it was something I didn't know existed.

You know, , we've constantly been referencing marketing, and

when people hear marketing, they think, okay, ad agencies are

the people that sit there and.

Design this stuff and do, it's all like

they think of a, like a Don Draper type, like

Yeah.

And marketing class.

But like in tv, marketing is a whole different ballgame.

You're not, you have to think about that kind of stuff, but

it's hands on production creation.

Creativity,

and as I have come to learn, working for you and under you, our

marketing team is very intimate.

It's only four people, , which I, I'm still unsure.

Is that common in the industry broadcast news?

Yeah.

It depends.

It varies by market, but it is trending towards smaller and smaller.

Right.

You know, you've, you've got smaller and smaller teams.

Our, our team is on the smaller side.

Some, although I guess my first job I was the marketing department.

You were just one person.

It was just me.

I did everything in there which was interesting to say the least.

And I almost didn't apply for that job because the title was

Director of OnAir Promotions.

Like, nobody's gonna hire me for that.

I, I don't have much experience and I applied just on a whim.

And the reason why I was director of on Air Promotions

was, I was everything there.

You were promotions.

Yeah.

So I'm glad.

I took the chance on that.

Like I still could think back and remember at that time debating

whether I should even apply.

And you made the right choice.

Yes.

I'm very glad I did it.

It changed my entire future.

Exactly.

And if we can just circle back to Grand Valley real quick.

Yes.

I'm curious about what professors you had, like what was the

faculty like at that time?

What kind of classes were you taking and, and how did that fit your marketing

trajectory and like the skills that you.

Well, I, I had, you know, I took all the standard, at least back in that

day, film production classes, you know, we had 16 1 16 2 media, one media two

shooting on film.

Shooting on film, , back then we were shooting on s vhs

, which is like tape, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Yep, yep.

We were shooting on, it was basically super VHS tapes.

And you were cutting on tape.

You were actually cutting with the tape machines.

And that's what I did in my first job still.

I was still in college.

I was on a media 100.

My first job was a media 100.

Right.

And so that, you know, aging myself there.

So we had all of those.

We did have, I think it was media too, when we were, we had to do some stuff

with WGVU, so I shot a sports game there.

I did a little bit of like studio work, very, very little bit studio

work as in like actual, in the TV studio, W Gvu you had to Okay.

You had to volunteer there for, the pledge drive and stuff like that.

So you got some experience in local, what, what do you call that?

Public broadcasting or

Yeah.

Public broadcasting, but like very, very little that I actually did.

Cuz I wasn't interested in it.

I remember having to do like one news package for, I think

it was a media class as well.

Okay.

Where we, we had to do a news story.

And so that, that was my experience

because you have no.

Like history or experience in like CMJ or like journalism or any of that, right?

I do actually.

I, I took a class in high school.

I was editor of the yearbook and I worked for the newspaper

very nice

and oh, worked for the newspaper in the school, mainly as a cartoonist

in a way,

and a columnist.

, so I, I did that.

So I have some experience with that.

And my dad was actually way.

I was born, he was a photographer for a newspaper.

Okay, interesting.

Which he finds interesting too, where he is like, oh wow, you're,

you're working in news too.

And I was way back in the day

because he always probably saw you as like that, that little filmmaker that was

gonna be the next Steven Spielberg, right?

Yes.

I mean, I know what that's like with parents who see you go through college

and, and a filmmaking degree, so, okay.

So how would you like, describe the broadcast industry to some

of our listeners who are curious about getting into that field?

Mainly in the lens of like the, the filmmaker's perspective.

Like what can that look like for them who maybe, don't have

like a CMJ major, you know,

Well, for me, one of the, the biggest drivers is creation.

I like creating.

That was part of my issue with LA too, was that I was creating other people's stuff.

Sure.

You know, working on a crew hauling lights, setting things up, you know.

Cutting some things or shooting some things.

So it's like you were a, a grip and an editor.

Yeah.

You know, and, and pa doing that kind of stuff, not the creation that I like doing.

And that, that was one of the other things

you, you had to work up that ladder, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just, wanted to create and that's what a lot of this industry is.

In the broadcast realm, especially in the marketing department, is you're

creating all the time you know, it's all writing, editing, shooting.

You know, that's where you spend the bulk of your time as

a regular marketing producer.

You know, the, these people, they.

And that would be, sorry to cut you off, but that would be, my

title is Marketing Producer.

You're a marketing director and Yeah.

If you wanna get into what, what entails with all that.

Yeah, yeah.

There was a little bit of time where they were billing people as

predators, you know, producer editors.

Okay.

I've never heard that.

Yeah, it was a couple years ago that they were really pushing

that kind of title because

In this day and age?

Yeah, yeah.

I know.

It wasn't exactly the best marketing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Your jack of all trades, you know, you,

that's a good way to put it.

You have to be able to write, you have to be able to light,

you have to be able to shoot.

Cuz you're most likely doing all of that

now on your own, right?

Yes.

You know, I love being able to create, having full control over things.

I like working with other people too, but like, I love being able to do that.

So I thrived , as a producer.

Where, where, you know, that one station where I did everything.

Like I had to learn how to do everything and do it all.

And,

but you had that knowledge from, from GV.

Oh yeah, of course.

LA as well.

You were well equipped for the job, it seems.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's part of the reason why it was so easy for me to get a job, right.

Because I was able to do that.

And now being on the other side of that, looking to hire people, that's,

you know, I'm always looking for it and it's hard to find, it's hard to

find those people that can do it all.

Right?

But when you can, you're like, oh, yeah, here you go and hop on board.

And when you, learn the intricacies of how television broadcast, marketing

departments work, then you could, you have a lot of room to succeed.

You have a lot of places to go, especially if you're willing to be.

Well, what advice would you have for that?

Cuz that's a great talking point, right there is, kind of, I was thinking

about this actually on my drive to work today, this morning was like,

you know, I've been here about, Eight or nine months, and I'm just thinking

about, you know, what, what can I do?

Um, eventually to get me to that point of where I'm feeling like, yeah, I'm really

successful and I'm, I'm really, really confident in my job and I feel like I

don't have to ask as many questions.

Like, what advice would you have for a future marketing producer to get

to that point that, that where you're like super confident and you're just,

you know, At the top of your game?

This might be just from my experience.

Sure.

Yeah.

Or my mindset, but, I am a learner.

We did a, a leadership training here and they did your analysis

and your leadership strength that was right here at the station.

They hired a firm to do it for, for the managers and things like that

to, to help us be better leaders.

But it was really interesting because the number one strength I had was a learner.

I love learning, I love whatever it is, and I feel that has

gotta be the biggest driver you.

Being open-minded and open to learn because that's one of the things that

I did throughout my career here is.

As I said, I like doing things myself, so I learned every process, every step

along the way of what you needed to do.

And granted, you know, like when we finished spots, we'd have to give

them to someone else to dub in at the time, and they would have to do

it and get it to prep it for air, but I learned how to do that in case

something happened along the way and that other person was not there, rather

than just being, oh, what do I do now?

Solve the problem,

right.

Being a problem solver is a huge part of this.

A creative problem solver.

Being able to look instead of just throwing your hands up and

be like, I don't know what to do.

You go, okay, I don't know what to do.

Let's figure this out and make it, it happen.

Let's,

I would say that's a great component or like a quality for anyone, in this major,

you know, the film and video major, you, you have to be a problem solver and it's

good to know more things than less things.

That's why it's great to be a jackal trades for a job like this.

You know, it's variety and it's preparedness, right?

Taking an initiative, obviously creativity, you know?

Oh yeah

That's the thing.

When I look to hire somebody and I.

Done some things with resumes, like with the school and stuff, talking

to students for this kind of job.

I don't care about your resume.

I do look at it, but that's the last thing I look at before I talk to you.

I go through and I specifically post on the post.

Demo reel.

Include a demo reel.

Right?

And it doesn't necessarily have to be, you don't have to put commercials on there.

You don't have to do this.

I just want to see a demo of your work.

And I look to that.

If someone doesn't put a demo reel on there, especially since I

specifically state that they go out, they're, they're out at the pile.

I don't even look at 'em.

Right.

And then I look at the demo reels and that's what speaks to me.

You know, one person that I hired was worked in the hospital doing

like videos for the hospital.

Yep.

She had nothing but like boring doctor videos on there, like, uh,

talking about their, field or Right.

Whatever, you know, corporate videos.

But I could see that they were well done.

Just in how they're put together.

But then how she put together the demo reel was really cool.

Like,

so it was the creativity of the splicing and the editing of the work.

But it was in addition it was probably really clean editing too,

and it looked like really nice.

I'm sure.

Yeah.

It was the creativity of how she cut it together.

Right.

Cuz she used like this TV.

Thing and just the extra effort and extra thought,

right.

That really stood out to me and that was enough for me to talk to her.

Another one I saw just little random samples cuz I hunted him out.

I was recommended this person and he didn't even apply.

I just looked online.

But all he had were just some scant little animations that he did and little pieces.

But in that, I saw enough cuz he was so talented.

I was like, oh, I see the talent there.

And that was enough to talk.

Sure.

But it's, it's, your work speaks for yourself.

It's all about the demo reel.

Yes.

So that creativity and then just some other things that work well.

Being able to communicate.

We're in the communications field, but you'll be surprised about how often

we have issues with communicating.

Can, can you, Shed some light on that for, for our listeners.

,just I guess, yeah.

What's the work environment like?

Because we are our own separate department.

We're a, we're a marketing department of four people.

There's the sales department, you have engineers, and then finally you have news.

They're like kind of the bulk of the station.

Talk a little about like, yeah.

What, what does that look like?

The people and the culture,

It's different at every single station.

And that's part of what you look at when you're, when you're

hiring there, because there are certain stations I won't work at.

Does it also help to know the market that you're going into?

Let's say I get sick of working for you.

John's a total, jerk.

I'm gonna leave, I'm going to California and I'm gonna work

at this other ABC affiliate.

Is that, would you recommend that, you know, like,

well that's, I mean, in this business that's how you, that's how you grow.

That's how you move

is going to those new places?

Is going to new markets.

Like going from one market to the other.

That's most likely, like I've been lucky.

I did move from, I started in Lansing, I moved to Grand Rapids and

then I had the opportunity to move across the street in Grand Rapids.

I went from one station to another within market.

Right.

In that Grand Rapids market.

Yeah.

That doesn't happen that often.

That, that you get that opportunity.

It does.

Moving within a market.

Moving within a market,

right.

But, moving from market one market to another.

So like, like I did from Lansing to Grand Rapids, or if, if you decide

to go to Tampa, or you wanted to go to Austin or wherever, right?

That's kind of how you jump up.

You know, you jump up in market size cuz there's all different sizes

of markets and the higher you go theoretically the more you get paid the

more responsibility you have and the.

That kind of thing too, like New York is the number one television market.

Well that brings me to my next question.

We'll circle back to that environment thing about, you know,

what the environment looks like.

But real quick before we circle back to that I just wanted to ask about

like, cuz you mentioned promotions and like, not marketing as in like

promotional material, but promoting, like getting promoted within that job.

What does that look like for marketing?

Because you, you have essentially the producers.

Which is what I am.

That's what my few other thought.

Is there any moving up the ladder, so to speak, in that facet of broadcast news?

Cause you mentioned that you can.

To different markets, and that could be looked at as a promotion, but

are there other ways of moving up?

Yeah.

Like I said, jumping from market to market and you could just go from a

producer to a producer and, but jumping up market size, but in, in the bigger

stations, the bigger the market you get, you get to other options, you know?

Sure.

There might be, well there's, a senior producer, , which is

kind of like a title thing.

it's a title thing or like, An actual like bump and pay rate.

Cause like that's, I guess what I'm asking is what are the promotions

that get you that higher pay?

Yeah.

Well then they have some other positions, like some places have a creative director.

Sure.

Some places have a Promotions manager who might, you know, maybe the creative

director is the head of the department, or I'm sorry, the marketing director

is doing big picture strategy stuff.

Then you have your like promotions manager who actually manages the producers and

gets, takes care of the day to day.

They do the managing.

The marketing director does the leading,

So this sounds like something that's in those larger markets

like New York for example, right?

Yeah.

They would have, , a lot of 'em, but even some of the smaller ones like Cleveland,

although that's a fairly large market too.

So I would say like the top 20.

Okay.

Probably have some more.

I started here as a creative director because the head of

marketing was also the head of sales.

Oh.

Interest.

So she kind of like ran both departments cuz she had

experience in both for a while.

Sure.

And that was like a growth challenge for her, but she couldn't do the

day to day stuff in marketing.

So that's why they had a creative director.

So I came in as Creative Director

okay.

Then when she left, I became Marketing Director.

We're taking a short break to tell you about the Dirk Koning

Memorial Film and Video scholarship.

Here's Gretchen Vinnedge remembering Dirk Koning.

The Koning Scholarship enables students to get that kind of an education, to be

a good filmmaker, to be able to express their voice and to continue Dirk's dream.

For more information, and to donate to the scholarship, visit

the link in the description.

Now, back to the show.

So there's a lot of variables that come into play with like how a marketing

department can like look structurally mm-hmm., because it just depends on

the market size and your personnel and like, you know, what skills they have.

For example, you mentioned someone that's good in sales and

marketing, they kind of double up.

So yeah, it sounds like a lot of, it depends on where you work, right?

Yeah.

it's all so much depends on your location and your station.

You know, everybody's set up differently.

Everybody takes on the challenges they face differently,

Right.

Everybody has a different attitude and a different like, vibe.

Well, going back to the environment, you just reminded

me, what does that look like?

Not just in the marketing department, but if someone wants to go into broadcasting,

what expectations should they know?

You know, as they like, walk into that station?

What is, what do things look like at least here?

Well, it's hectic and you're never bored.

You know, it's always going, especially with news, cuz you're

dealing with breaking situations.

You're dealing with Exactly.

Happening and having to be nimbal so it's definitely not something for the

faint of heart where you, like sitting around and having, a big long term plan

and moving along on that path and, not having anything change along the way.

Yeah.

And, and so that, that's where part of the fun comes in.

You know, you're always working on something different.

Like every day is something different.

Right.

Which is, which is nice because that's one thing I noticed too

versus this kind of job versus film.

You know, in film you're working on a project for a long time, you know.

Sure.

Like you said, you might be working on this same thing for two months, or if, if

you're, you're making the film, you might be working on it for a year or two, you

know, if you're, if you're high up on.

But this, it's, there's all kinds of different projects,

so you never really get bored.

You know, you never get to just get tired of doing this.

Someone who may have a shorter attention span.

It's great.

It's a great work environment, right?

Yes.

Yes.

Because then you, you get to, oh, you know, right now I'm making this

kind of commercial, which is this and that, and doing this kind of thing,

and then, You know, next week I'll be doing this and it's a whole different

thing and it lets you stretch your, your wings and try different things.

Well, and I can vouch for that as a producer in that position and, and just

speaking on the environment real quick, like yeah, it really is fast paced and

I would say it's very attractive to most of those, film and video students,

because that's, the industry, if they want to go the film route, you know,

it's, it's very cutthroat, I would say It's less cutthroat here, but it,

it is, you're very much on your toes and you gotta be a quick thinker.

And this is a great week, I would say, as an example, because it's

a, it's election week, right?

And we just, the elections were, were.

It was just yesterday.

We're recording this on a Wednesday, the day after.

And I would say this week for me personally, there's just

a lot of things happening.

You know, I'm putting together this new weather campaign that we're doing

for the, the winter, and I'll be shooting some stuff for that this week.

And it's like there's shooting with talent and then there's this, I came up with

this plan to do some man on the street segments, and that's shooting on my own.

You know, going out into like the city and, you know, I might get some footage, I

might not, there's kind of like that, that unpredictability of things that kind of

keeps it exciting and it's this emergent process of, you're always challenging

yourself to just make something.

That you think will be well, for a lack of a better word.

Awesome.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and like even yesterday, you had the experience too and you've had

a couple of those where, hey, you're going out and shooting news and things

that you necessarily weren't expecting.

I didn't go to school for news.

I didn't go to school for broadcast.

This is stuff that, you know, I'm learning just like having worked here for the past.

Almost a year now, so you, can even learn new skills.

Right.

And it's kind of exciting and it, it just, it feels good to, you

know, help out another department when they, you know, might not have

as many people on staff that day.

And it's, it's great cuz like, like you said, you're always learning

and you, you gotta be a learner.

You gotta love to learn.

And I, I would say I like to learn . I mean, who doesn't?

Right?

It's great.

Yeah.

That's one of the things that I, I saw when I was, interviewing you.

Because I was like, oh, this guy, you, you, you were hungry.

Especially when you started.

I remember the first couple days when you're going through the training

and you're like asking everybody all these questions and like, oh yeah.

I remember having a, a talk with our our sales department head and I was

just like fascinated by this world of like, numbers and sales and like

how TV works in a local community.

Yeah, it's fascinating.

Right?

That's what was actually sticking in my head cuz I remember that.

I was like, where's Jake?

I mean, he's there for a long time.

He was supposed to be there for like 30 minutes and it turned

into like an hour and a half.

Yeah.

But that, but that's great.

That's, you know, that's what we need.

And something keep in mind too, when we're talking about learning, I have

never had a marketing class in my life.

I had one.

Not even in college.

I had no marketing classes, but I took the skills from film.

You know, marketing's all about emotion and, and getting people to feel,

You're, you're constantly having the audience's expectations in mind, right?

Yes.

You, you're always thinking about the people watching it, how they're

feeling, how you're making them feel.

And so I was able to channel that and take that and use that as marketing and

everything else related to marketing, the strategy, those kind of things.

Right.

I learned because I had an open mind and I'm like interested to learn

from people that I'm working with, people that are, , my boss or my

partners in, in the business cuz we are not an island here at the station.

We are owned by a larger company that in our case owns 64 stations in 59 markets.

And what, where do we lie within that number?

Our station.

Yeah, our station's one of 'em.

We are market

Just for a curiosity.

Yeah.

I think we're market 44 now.

It, it fluctuates every year.

Right.

But you know, that's another thing talking about the growth and moving

Sure.

You don't have to necessarily move to a totally different company, you know,

working like this, if you're a standout, like especially our company really works

on that growth plan and works on that.

Like part of the yearly reviews that you get is your personal

growth development plan and like, Your career development plan,

Right.

So if you're like, I want to be a marketing director, well

then we put you on that path and say, okay, well let's do this.

Let's give you extra, like extra projects.

Let's, let's give you something special that lets you shine.

And then when there's another opening, we could say, Hey, you know, you

we had someone, this happened in the sales department, but someone

needed to move to Sacramento because their, their new wife wanted to get

back home and she got a job there.

And just so happens we have a station in Sacramento and they had an

opening, so boom, we moved him right over there cuz he was a rockstar.

We were sad to see him go right?

But they were super thrilled to have him.

And so he got a job working for the same company, didn't have to change

anything, just had to move out there.

And it worked out beautifully for him.

So is this like a safe, nice kind of cushion?

Not cushiony, but you know, like a.

A long term kind of career , to maybe think about because no matter where you

are in the country, there's a station that might have an opening for you, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it depends on, you know, obviously, like I said, moving up in the market.

So moving to, to those bigger cities.

Mm-hmm.

That's where you really get a jump or moving up in position, like

I said, if you wanted to go to a director of marketing type job.

But you gotta remember too with that, that's a whole lot different.

Than being a producer.

Sure.

I love producing.

I know you do.

I, because you're just knowing you.

You're a person that likes to make things right?

Yes.

You don't like to sit in meetings.

No, no, no.

, but you know, this.

Being, the head of the department is a whole lot different.

I don't get to make stuff as much as I used to.

I still, I'm still very hands on.

I still do a lot of stuff, but that

Do you, do you wanna talk about that?

Like what, what does your job look like on the day to day?

in case we have people that are wanting to be marketing directors, you know?

Yeah.

Well, That's, a lot of stuff, a lot of meetings, a lot of strategy and planning.

, you know, cuz I'm, I'm trying to set the direction, I'm also trying to grow

my team, , in the sense of making sure you folks have what you need and you are

able to grow and be fulfilled, you know?

Well, if I can just say real quick, I, I feel like I've grown considerably

after just starting work here.

Not even a year.

Thank you for that.

Yeah.

I've seen, I've seen a lot of growth definitely from you.

And, that's what happens.

I, I kind of, you know, it's funny, I, I've got two kids and I, I kind,

kind of treat it in the same way as

mm-hmm.

Like my employees are my kids in the sense that, you know, I your

goal with kids is to have them grow up and leave you Exactly, exactly.

And be successful.

Yeah.

And that's my goal too.

Like, I don't want you sitting around here forever.

I want, I want you to grow your skills.

I want you to learn all you can and be like, I'm going, I want to go do this.

I wanna go do that.

And boo, there you go.

Go with and go be free

. I think that's great because I mean, no one should be like, stay put for like you.

X amount of years.

That seems like an you know, like forever.

Like, and if, and if you're someone like me that wants to, that has

like these bigger goals in mind.

I mean, I feel like in the film industry people are always changing

their minds of what they want to do.

You know, maybe they're really good at editing for a couple of years, but

now they're like wanting to get into lighting and maybe want to become an

established, uh director of photography.

I think it's great that, you know, you facilitate that, that thirst for knowledge

in a way that you don't want people.

Be learning under you for, you know, 10, 20 years.

You, you want to see people try new things and use those skills that you teach to.

Use 'em somewhere else.

Yeah.

And teach me something too.

Right.

It's fun to learn, right?

Yes.

I love that.

I love getting new perspectives from people.

So like, going back to like what my job is like, you know, like I

said, lots of meetings, lots of planning, lots of thinking, like a

thought process and trying to figure out how can we make this work?

How can we do this?

How can.

Get to our goal.

How can we increase viewership?

What can we do and, and help, get everybody else on board.

, our company works a little different too, in that we try and break down

the silos between departments.

And You're saying the companies and the parent company or?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes., and in turn, our company here in just that you.

It's not just marketing over here doing their thing news

over here, doing their thing.

Everybody's gotta work together.

We call it a one content team, correct?

Yes.

Yes.

So everybody's working together.

So we tend to be more creative, we tend to be more audience focused.

We tend to be able to think that way and think in that strategy, and we try and,

implement that into news too, to get.

to, create their content that better fits our audience's needs

so we can get those numbers up, up, up, right?

Yes.

I mean, that's what it's all about.

That's the end goal.

Yes.

In our case, we also, we feel like kind of a mission to

make the world a better place.

You know, we're, we're trying to help people grow, help people improve.

You know, we're trying to make a difference in the community,

especially our station, where we are known as the community station

because that's what we wanna focus on.

We want to improve our community, we wanna make it a better place,

Right.

And so a lot of the stuff that we do related to that,

Hence the rebranding, I think it was back in, was it 2018?

The, the 13 on your side.

Branding is very focused on, you know, helping the community, right?

Mm-hmm.

. Yep.

And that's kind of a thing in local news, right?

Each broadcast station kind of has their mission, statement, so to speak.

The successful ones do okay.

Not everyone necessarily thinks about it.

A lot of times they go in and just think, Oh, this is what we do.

Let's just, you know, we gotta report on whatever pops up.

Right.

And other ones have a mission of like, Hey, we wanna report on what's going on

and what's important, but we also want to.

Make the world better or we want to help out people.

Most, a lot of TV stations care about the community and want to improve

it and do whatever they can to help.

Right.

But yeah, so that, that's kind of what my.

Gig is, it's less day to day making stuff.

Although I still do things like I've been doing animations cuz

that's one of my strong suits.

I do a lot of that kind of stuff.

I do graphics.

You do animations for both corporate and like our station, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I'll do, I'll do all kinds of.

Things that come up and I'll, I'll even take some spots now and again,

but that, that is tough cuz I can't dedicate the time like I used to,

you know, when that was my job to

Right.

Work on those projects.

Like you get to, you know,

and spots being for those listening that might be confused spots is just

like another name, like a industry term for like a commercial or an ad.

And do you wanna talk about that a little bit?

Like what kind of ads we make?

I feel like that's a huge portion of the, of the job, right?

Yeah., and, and that's different by station as well.

But a lot of times the marketing department, we here, we focus.

Stuff promoting our station like our, our newscasts, any of our platforms,

whatever, promoting the station itself.

There's also clients that sales gets that come in with commercials, and there's

someone else here that makes those, however many other stations that's part

of the marketing team you have like commercial producers or things like that.

At my old station, I was the marketing person, so I did a producer,

I did the station promotions.

But when we would get like a client that was paying more that

wanted something really snazzy

Yep.

I would take that on because I would be able to do the memorable beast

Be promoting something in the community that's not the news station.

Yeah.

That would, that would be making an ad for a client.

You know, so like if a local coffee shop came in and wanted to spend money to buy

an ad and make a difference, and they were like, Hey, here's a bunch of money.

We want to, we want to get people, coming into our shop more.

Right?

And so we want something really memorable.

They'll go to

local

They'll come to me.

They turned a local broadcast as like a, a facilitator for like, showing

their, their advertisement, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause they, they can't air.

Maybe it's too expensive to air it on TBS or you know some other channel.

The local news stations are a good option, right?

Well you wanna reach the market that,

That's in the community

That will actually come to your shop.

Cause if you, if you market on TBS

Well, true.

You're gonna be hitting all over the place,

All over the nation.

Yeah.

You want to market for the the people in your community.

And the best way to do that is through local advertising.

And so that, that's what we do.

And a lot of times in this, what they do is they'll sell, A on-air package and

be like, okay, we'll make a commercial for you because you don't have one.

Exactly.

So you buy this airtime and we'll make a commercial for you.

Now that we've kind of painted the picture of what it looks like to be in marketing

at a news station, like broadcast news, what advice do you have for students that

are wanting to maybe go into this now after learning a little bit about it?

Look for opportunities.

You know we talked about it a bunch.

I mean, how I landed the internship, how I got into the business, how I

wound up in this position, you know?

Right.

Cuz I enjoyed being a producer.

It, but I was always just, keeping the eye open for opportunities.

Always learning.

Always be learning

Exactly.

Always learning and seeing what you can learn.

Cuz the more you know, the more valuable you are and it just makes it more fun.

And I think that's one of the things I have advice for a lot is always find.

Something in what you do.

You know, they always say, do what you love or do what you enjoy.

Right.

My thing, you've gotta do a lot of stuff that you don't love or

that you don't enjoy, but find something in it that fires you up.

What do you love as a director of marketing?

What's that thing that you, that makes you come back into

work every day with a smile?

Well, I love challenges.

I love puzzles.

Yeah.

I love that kind of stuff.

And so every day is a challenge.

Like I'm, I'm faced with 8 million different challenges or different puzzles

that I, or problems that I have to solve and then I also really like the

growth, you know, helping other people.

Helping my, my team grow.

I like that kind of challenge.

I like that, that, that whole thing.

Like, one of the questions, I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit here, but

was like, share your best work story.

Well, one of the first things I wrote, actually, the first two were Emmy wins

not for me, but for people I worked with.

And that's interesting, right?

Because I feel like most people, and they hate to admit it, it's kind of hard

to be happy for someone else, right?

Yeah.

Like, like winning an award.

Yeah.

But you were like, estatic about that, right?

Yes.

Like I worked with someone who on this spot where she was a

great artist and I was like Hey, how about you do these drawings?

And I'll, I could animate them and we could work together and

make this really cool spot.

And we wound up winning an Emmy for it.

And I, she was through the roof.

She was so excited.

This was her first one, and I just loved that.

I was so thrilled to be able to work with her and help.

And we could make this together.

Yeah.

And then one of the other guys that, I hired and trained at my old job.

Like that night I was nominated for stuff.

I won stuff.

I was like, okay, cool.

Awesome.

Right.

But he was nominated for something and this was his first one too.

Okay.

And he won.

And I was more thrilled for that than any of my nominations.

I was like, yes.

That's so awesome.

I was so thrilled that he, could he pull it up?

Cause it's, it's seeing that growth literally pay off, right?

Yes.

And just seeing them improve like that and grow and be confident and

thrilled with what they were doing.

I love that.

So those were some of the best moments.

The other one was not like in a leadership role, but in production role.

And that was, I got to make this series of spots for a client.

This was a big money client that came in and I got to go nuts and I spent probably

I think it was a month focused on this one project I built a cave set out in the

garage and I built a space suit and I out of just like stuff that I found and made.

Really crazy.

2001, kind of like parody that went on for like three different

spots and told the story and if I can, but it, it was so much fun.

I've seen it and I saw that ad before knowing you at all.

Like, this was back in high.

I was probably a high schooler.

And I remember seeing that on TV and I was like, well, this is crazy.

They, who, who made, I had to know, like, who made this?

And when I found out like getting hired in here like that, that was you.

That was mind blowing.

Like, cause it was just that, that left an impact on me.

And it was, it kind of inspired me, like, okay, maybe I can do this someday and put

something crazy on tv, like this guy did.

Yeah.

That was, that's fun.

I, I love that.

Like, I, and, and you know, it's funny you said put on tv, I

don't care if it ever even airs.

Yeah.

You were just happy to make it, right.

Yeah.

That, that had to be so much fun.

It was all, it's all about the creating like, that actually happened

at my first job where the boss sat me down cuz like one of the spots

had to be pulled that I worked on.

Oh really?

Yeah.

And he, I think he was a little nervous, you know, cuz he didn't

wanna like crush my spirits.

Yeah, sure.

And he was like, yeah, it's not gonna air.

I'm like, okay.

And he was just very confused.

And if like, I don't care.

I made it.

I, I, now you stopped me halfway through, I would've been

like, no, but I must finish.

Yes.

But you know, I finished it.

I got to watch it.

I was like, sweet.

That was awesome.

Well and the greatest thing about this field, like film and video as a whole,

like, you, you get to make stuff.

It serves as an archive for like the rest of time.

And I mean, some people are different.

Some people don't look at it that way.

But me personally, when I make something, it's, it's there forever and I can always

go back to it and it, it's a memory.

So, real quick though, do you wanna plug that 2001 a Space Odyssey Commercial?

Tell our listeners where they can find it.

Where to watch it.

What's it called?

Oh, you could find it on YouTube youtube.com/promoguyxmipromoguyxmi.

And that's my channel.

It's got all my old stuff on there.

I don't have as much new stuff.

I gotta, I really gotta update it and put a lot of the newer

stuff on there, but that was all.

Craziness that I made

And the client for that one once

That was Jack's wholesale windows.

Right.

You know, these are film people.

They, they like 2001 A Space Odyssey.

Yeah.

That would, that would drive me crazy to hear people talking about it and

then be like, well how do I see this?

I wanna see that to just know what they're talking about.

That about wraps it up like the bulk of our discussion here.

Mean, do you have any last remarks or comments?

Advice any quotes from philosophers maybe?

Well I did get asked once talking to a school like, Hey,

what, what would your quote be?

And I thought I was, that was a really good question, and I, I sat

there and thought about it for a little bit, and then I told them,

I think for me it's enjoy wonder,

Enjoy wonder

Because I just love enjoying, like wondering and being curious and

creating and doing all that stuff, and just finding that joy in whatever you

It's a good thing we're humans and not like some animal, right?

We have that higher thinking brain.

It's pretty nice.

Yeah, that's a great quote and great advice to our students listening.

I mean, never be afraid I guess my quote is, life begins at

the end of your comfort zone.

Always, always try something new because you never know if you love it.

I didn't know I would love film until I got into the program my sophomore year.

So always try something new and always learn.

Thanks for listening and thanks for coming on, John.

You're welcome.

Thanks for having me.

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