Narrator: You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Hazel Chappell: So that was really, I will say, a turning

point. It was actually a knife in the heart for me, and I

decided just to look at what is locally around me and what how

can I actually have that work life balance, which was hugely

important to me.

Eveline Oehrlich: Hello, welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast.

I'm Eveline Oehrlich, Chief Research Officer at the DevOps

Institute. Our topic today is Humanizing Change, Innovating

Health and Care During Digital Transformation. Thank you again

for listening to us and thank you for being here. Today we

have with us Hazel Chapell. I think that is how you say your

name Hazel. Is that correct?

Hazel Chappell: Yes. If that's the way you want it, that's fine

or chapel, whatever.

Eveline Oehrlich: Oh, chapel, alright. I want to make sure

because sometimes, I used to be sometimes a little bit of fun

and when people say my last name, so chapel, alright, Hazel

Chapell. Great. Let me give everybody here a little bit of

an introduction of what about Hazel, and then we just get

right into it. So Hazel is a women business owner

entrepreneur and moved to North America years ago today. She's

actually in Austin, Texas. Now in a pre talk Hazel and I have

figured out that she actually spent her Christmas over in

Europe, where she doesn't reside anymore, but she has family. And

I actually moved and spent my Christmas over in the US so we

probably crossed each other across somewhere on the pond

Hazel through during the time. So she is in the business of

health care and biomedicine with 20 years and more experience,

where she headed up ventures across Europe to include the UK,

Sweden, Spain and Ireland and has a very diverse network in

health care and biomedicine across America and globally.

Hazel is the CEO and founder of ich HCA health Incorporated,

which provides consulting and advisory services around three

key areas. continuous change, which of course is something

we'll talk a little bit about cyber basics one on one, and she

provides Executive Advisory to C suite and small businesses.

She's also an adviser to Austin's Dell med Health

Innovation catalyst program, where she reviews and

contributes to a broad spectrum of entrepreneurial innovative

initiatives. She enjoys speaking on a variety of topics pertinent

to healthcare and biomedicine with a key theme of digital

security in her delivery. And that's really how I found her

when I was looking around for some experts in digital and

particular verticals. So Hazel again, thank you. She's

passionate about reducing risk to businesses and keeping

businesses safe. She has recently been a guest Pam speak

with European Connected Health Alliance on the topic of data

culture around cybersecurity Ireland I actually was listening

to that was quite good. Additional asleep she sorry.

Additionally, she was presenting educator to senior dexus Texas

data leaders on digital transformation includes

leadership. She is also a member of a variety of topics and areas

let me mention a few. Bio North Texas, Texas interoperability

collaborative. Oh my goodness Oh, West Austin and awarded

Alaskan batch. England's digital leadership network health

informatics Society of Ireland and a few other things such as

the H I M S. S. Austin chapter. Welcome to our podcast, Hazel.

Hazel Chappell: Thank you, Eveline. Appreciate you having

me here.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, delighted to have you. And I love that we

both have different accents. So this will be a lot of fun

because we can challenge each other. I love Irish. Of course.

I love the Irish accent. And I used to work at a company where

they had a lot of Irish folks. And sometimes we made we laughed

at each other when we said certain words but I promise I

will not laugh at you. And if you promise that you will not

laugh at me either. So the first thing is QA. Am I saying that

correct? Yes, that is correct. It means water in Irish. I saw

that and found that out in your podcast or webinar you did. Tell

us more about the name of your company.

Hazel Chappell: Sure. are. So it's good is the Irish word

translated from the? Well, it's it's the Irish word translated,

meaning water. Now it is actually spelled differently in

the Irish language. UISCE but I did really think about how that

would be actually read. So I went with the phonetic spelling

of it. And while it means water, which is one of the basic needs

of life for health, it's important that it would be clean

water. And I just thought it was pertinent to the business that I

mean, and how for health and wellness.

Eveline Oehrlich: great idea. Love that. If I need a company

name, I will reach out to you now, how did you get into an

involved in healthcare? Give us a little bit about your journey?

Hazel Chappell: Sure. And so from a business point of view, I

had been working internationally in technology, and also within

the financial industry. And at the time, I was in London, and I

had worked in Bloomberg and Reuters. And where I then was

currently in Merrill Lynch, and my daughter, who was turning two

at the time said to me, Mom, when are you ever going to have

breakfast with me? Because you can imagine within that

industry, the hours and the days are long. So that was really I

wouldn't say a turning point. It was actually a knife in the

heart for me, being a mom, and I decided just to take that step

and look at what is locally around me. And what how can I

actually have that work life balance, which was hugely

important to me. So it was really on the back of that, that

I ended up getting the opportunity within what's called

a trust in England. So it's one of the large ecosystems. And

that's how I fell into healthcare within the world of

what's now known as electronic patient record and the beginning

of the digital world. So that was over 20 years ago.

Eveline Oehrlich: Wow. Yeah, being a mother myself. similar

challenges, I decided to shift from a technology vendor into

becoming an industry analyst and joined Forrester in 2006. Little

did I know that I would be gone 70% traveling. And I remember my

kids saying the same thing. Mom, when are you ever going to be

here for my soccer game? So yes, great, great, great change for

you, in my case, wasn't that great. But I know my daughter is

so successful, despite the fact that I've been traveling. Now,

as I mentioned, I've been an analyst for quite some time and

still function. Besides being Chief Research Officer at the

DevOps Institute, I still do quite a lot of work around

researching different topics. One, of course, is to digital

transformation. I heard you say I think it was a net webinar, I

was watching The Digital Transformation actually started

in 2003. In healthcare, I actually was, was quite blown

away by that. But I believe you because you are there, I am not

in the vertical. So when you step back and kind of look at

the topic of digital transformation, and when we

think about the maturity of zero to five, like zero, non existent

and five, it's like high maturity. Where would you say,

the health care in general, I know this is hard, because

there's so many different aspects, but in general, from a

top down, where in terms of maturity is healthcare today,

even you are doing global work, maybe highlight some of the

regions, maybe Americas or North America versus Europe? I think

that would be really great for us, our listeners, because some

of them might be in the health care vertical.

Hazel Chappell: Sure. So I will just also pick up on you know,

that date 2003. And certainly listeners would say no,

actually, it started before then and which I would agree I joined

in 2002 or something like that. And I guess really the the

movements slash momentum had already kickstart for a variety

of reasons. When I was working in the UK. It was about having

one patient one record due to a number of significant, I suppose

patient safety incidents. And then of course, 911 came along

and one could argue that that certainly was the accelerator of

the need to have a more digital footprint and certainly within

healthcare. So I guess I'm one of those people that has

actually come across or you know, worked across the spectrum

from the digitization the digital lives. nation, and where

we are in terms of digital transformation. So if you take

those three angles from us, certainly, I was heavily

immersed within the going from paper, you know, what was called

in, and certainly in England, the Lord George records, in

other words, the physical paper piles, right through to

digitizing those. I feel, I guess, proud and informed and

been able to take lessons learned from, from all those

areas really, and the journey that you mentioned, from where

we are today, ironically, and I will look ahead from a

geographical point of view. So there are pockets of areas,

certainly within Europe. You know, I will say in Ireland,

within England, and certainly going abroad that are still

actually paper records, and certainly within child health.

That is very much the case and looking at how to integrate the

digital health aspect there. It is really, you know, since since

my arrival here in America, I can see that digital is the way

there are a few areas that aren't. And that's just to my, I

suppose linear lens, if I may put it like that. So and then,

of course, then you take countries like Australia that

are doing actually, you know, massive transformation. Now, I

will actually roll back as well to Ireland and say that, I sat

on one of the government advisory committees about as an

expert within the need to implement or to have changed at

the forefront of their digital transformation journey. And it

was my privilege and honor to sit alongside that then CIO,

Richard corporate, who, in my opinion, is that local, global

icon for digital transformation. So it is, there are areas that,

you know, certainly been involved in HIMS, as well and

Health Information Management Society, they support it and

help accelerate that digital maturity from hospital providers

and organizations to achieving certain levels. And what that

actually brings about whether it is to have full what we call

digital transformation and interoperability of data, but

that can actually mean a different things subject to what

the technology is enabling as well. So I guess really to

summarize, everlean, there is, there is so much more to do, I

would say maybe that we're in a two to three, I have no doubt

that there would be people who would actually, you know, who

are listening into this and go, Hey, you know, actually, I think

we're a little bit further afield. And that would be within

those areas pockets, which yet, again, is the siloed. There's

the siloed locations, which can be the challenge to achieving

what the absolute ultimate objectives of digital

transformation is about.

Eveline Oehrlich: So yes, I'm sure we have some folks who

would say one or the other, right, in terms of the maturity,

but it is a fairly complex, as you said, a topic with many

facets and many angles. And but I think, as you said to to

whatever to be three, I think that indicates that, from your

perspective of a practitioner and an expert that are still

more to go. I did look this morning quickly at the agenda in

Davos, as you I'm sure are familiar with the most beautiful

place in Switzerland, hopefully they have some snow and they can

ski. Many leaders are visiting each other and with each other

to make some challenges or to address some challenges. I did

not see a lot around particular verticals, but I will have to

research again for our listeners, take a look at the

W's and what's happening there as always very good. World

Economic Forum has always very, very good content and knowledge

and details around digital transformation. All right now, I

was intrigued by your talk on humanizing change. It was really

music to my ears because we at DevOps Institute are really

focusing on the human aspects of, of these different modern

operating models such as DevOps, agile and so on. And so I have a

quote, I hope this is correct. You said humanizing change is a

vital part of any organization's digital transformation. Taking a

people centric approach has time and time again shown to reduce

risk. minimize cost and foster a culture that embraces change not

only now, but also in the future. In an environment of

rapid and current unprecedented change, we provide the glue that

holds people together in challenging times to deliver

critical outcomes. So don't overlook your organization's

most important asset before conducting digital

transformation. This is absolutely beautiful. I do know

and Gartner and others say that the challenges around digital

transformation is really the culture. So you're hitting, as

we say, in Germany, the nail right on its head, tell us a

little bit more about this humanizing change? What do you

mean by that give us a little more color, because again, I'm

sure many of the listeners are intrigued by your statement and

want to understand more about humanizing change.

Hazel Chappell: Sure. So I may get a little bit passionate

here. For me, so go with me on this. So to me, I suppose as it

infers humanizing is really is all about the people. I found

when I was implementing electronic health records across

any ecosystem, it wasn't about the technology, we as humans are

individuals. So whether there are commonalities that we have,

at the end of the day, we are intrinsically individuals. So

when I talk about the people, it can be people in a variety of, I

suppose it can be broken down. So it can be actually your

customers, it can be the end users, it can be the patients.

But when I talk about people as well, I also talk about the

mindsets. And from that thing, you have to look up behaviors.

Now, a great person I've admiration for is Dr. Bob

Wachter, and he was brought in by the NHS in England to

actually assess and how to improve the National Health

Service in England. And he spoke about people can be the problem,

but people can also be the solution. And that, clearly, the

fact that I'm, you know, recounting his phrase, and

certainly has resonance to with me, in essence, in my opinion,

and experience, people, things don't work unless you involve

the people it is, you know, to actually have them engaged to

actually have them motivated to have them informed, to have them

at what I call the core of which is why that we have, you know,

user centric or human centric approaches, is invalid to

actually accelerate or to expedite and achieve on those

goals that an organization has actually set out. And speaking

with some organizations, you know, certainly within the last

two years, as well, where we're exactly as I say, in an era of

unprecedented change, and the few top cracy of work, when you

take all of that, it is really, absolutely important to ensure

that people are engaged, that they trust that they are

motivated. And what does that that actually look like? Or are

we actually looking at humans, and extrapolating their, their

true skills that perhaps aren't used within the workplace? Well,

that's where we can then look at, you know, costs and the

other aspects as well, reducing risk to, to meet the business

needs. And I'll give you another incident, actually, if you take

a cybersecurity takedown or an incident, people look at the

technology and they start looking at the logs and see why

this happened. And absolutely, you know, and I will take the

example and I'm sure many people across the country who are

hospital systems have been brought down as well, to focus

on the needs of the workforce and ensure that they are well

looked after that they are kept there working around the clock

to ensure that the system is kept up for patients and you

know, for the health of patients, etc. And sometimes

that can actually be forgotten that it's not just about the

technology we need to focus on, whether it's the security

people, whether it's actually the clinicians, how do we ensure

the continuous care of the patients and how do we support

the workforce to help us resolve the issue in hand?

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Eveline Oehrlich: You know, I just remembered a data point,

which was brought up by John Clifton, who is the CEO of

Gallup, they did a research project. And they have been

doing this for quite a while now, I think I want to say maybe

10 years, and I just did a podcast with John Clifton as

well. He said that is 22 findings in the 22 findings on

engagement, only 21% of people are engaged today at their

workplace. I found that sad, but at the same time, I do

understand why. Because there is some reasoning in that report.

But again, I find that really, really sad, and particularly in

the vertical, where you are, and what is so essential,

particularly after the pandemic, and what is in front of us

relative to all of that, that engagement from both the folks

or from all the focus right, has to be addressed. And so really

quite, quite a motivational and quite a passionate topic. So I'm

glad you have passion. And I'm looking forward to additional

conversations on that. Now, as technologists, as you said, Yes,

human humanizing change, and we need to make sure that we engage

and make sure we have engaged folks. What do you see in terms

of challenge across the humanizing change, specifically

in health care? I mean, let me just read really quickly, a

couple of things I experienced recently, my father in law, had

to be in a hospital the last three days for a surgery. And

that was a very pleasant engagement, because the people

there were extremely focused on let's call it patient

experience, were two months ago, in a different hospital, the

experience was completely different to different carriers,

or I don't know what the actual languages but to providers, I

think, is the right word, right from both hospitals. One was

more. I don't know, just very different. I don't want to go

into religion, because actually, one was a religious provider,

which was just a very pleasant experience. What are some

challenges you see across humanizing change within

healthcare?

Hazel Chappell: That's a great question. And I can take it from

different angles, if I may. It's from a business point of view,

and certainly within what I would call the senior management

and leadership suite, and specifically within healthcare,

and I say that rather than actually maybe more of the

Biomedicine or life sciences part is actually the lack of

translation. And what do I mean by that when you actually take a

C suite, you have chief medical officer, you have Chief

Operating Officer, you have chief digital information

officer, so you've chief, you know, Chief, CX, Chief of

chiefs, let's say. So without actually breaking that time,

you've technology of operational, you've, you know,

executive, and then of course, you've actually got the

clinicians in hand. And if you take, for example, a topic like

cybersecurity, which I will add as well is not as prevalent, and

as regular on the agendas, as I would like to see. But that's

another area of passion for me. But when you take in somebody is

presenting that language to the board. It is absolutely my

experience. And I'm very confident in saying that, that

the information that is communicated is not always

clear. I'm actually what does it mean by actually communicating

this information? And what is the impact of that information

being communicated as well? And that is where that whether it is

actually we want we have a digital transformation program

that is starting up what does this look like? The need to have

somebody there translating and understand is absolutely

essential. And you know, I had a great conversation with a leader

from the Department of Defense yesterday and he absolutely

Nuclear agreed with me because even from his world, and going

into commercial world as well, it is an area that, as I say, in

my opinion, is a key challenge. Also, as well that, you know, I

mentioned communications as well, my experiences, what is

really communication look like? So if you take, I use the

analogy of cleanliness between naught and five, you have

somebody who thinks clean is good, or two or three. And then

you have the other end of the scale five, which is perhaps

maybe a little bit OCD. Communication is like that as

well, though, when somebody thinks that communicate

effectively, actually isn't ever measured how it's understood, or

is it expected that it is understood? And what does that

look like, within an organization, I was brought in

to spearhead a failing program at one point. And one of the

first things that when I looked at it was really, you know, and

you spoke earlier about workforce not being engaged.

And, and it was really, because they didn't know what the

leadership were trying to communicate, they were only told

from their direct manager, that this is the instruction that

needs to be done. But having the overarching vision and

objectives was was not very clear. In terms of as well, I

was, you know, the hairs just went up in my arms when you

said, I believe about the patient experience. I'm a

patient as well. And I can categorically say, that

irrespective of what provider system, my goodness, it is

really, you know, sad actually, that how the patient walks in

the door. And the level of interaction is very, very

impersonal. And it really takes a variety of, I suppose people

to understand that everybody is a patient, there are global

leaders across the way who have certainly transformed themselves

because of a loved one or exactly to your point that

you're able to now tell the story around a family member

with a good or and thankfully, it was a very good experience.

And sometimes that can actually be the catalyst for leaders to

really become more empathic and humble, irrespective of the

mentoring or coaching or training that they should be

getting. And my question is, well, why aren't you like that

to begin with, because we all want to be treated as how we

would like to be treated, and how we should be treating other

people in our everyday lives. You know, you mentioned

Eveline Oehrlich: two key words, which are quite important. Of

course, one is communication. And I would add, actually

collaboration. And the second is empathy, as part of our work.

And as part of my work at the DevOps Institute, for the last

five years, we have looked at skills. And you know, of course,

we look at technical schools, and we look at classes, skills,

and framework skills, and all those wonderful things. But we

also look at human skills, we used to call them soft skills.

But as you know, there's nothing soft about soft skills, they're

really hard human skills are hard, and the top two must have

are communication and collaboration, and then empathy.

But at the same time, while these are the top must have

skills, those are the biggest skill gaps across, wait about

3000 data data points this year, which to me, again, is for the

five years or five years, now we have these two gaps, or there's

others. But these are two key gaps. And I do think your point

on leaders and leadership, understanding and having the

right perspective of what is necessary, is something which

hopefully, we will see from leaders in the future, in this

year and further on. We cannot continue this way. That's what I

would say.

Hazel Chappell: And I would agree and if I can just pick you

up and drill down a little bit more on that. So empathy to me

is around actually also having the emotional intelligence and

that to me is a very inherent skill or trait or personality

within somebody. Now, we can all learn and we can read books and

understand it. But if I actually take as well, you know, the

book, what they don't teach you at Harvard Business, School, and

empathy and emotional intelligence is one of those

things for me as well that when you take where certain

leadership are at a certain Ah, you know are our behaviors can

be a little bit, I suppose, solidified, that can be

ingrained on us. So suddenly to have to turn and pivot to become

this empathic leader, and to actually become more humble, is

a big challenge and an uphill battle for those leaders who are

currently in place. But it is, I totally agree with you something

that has to happen to meet the demands of the way that the

challenges that we're encountering today, because our

Gen Z, and our, you know, millennials are coming in, and

they sometimes habit, so whether it's through their dyslexia,

whether it's through who they are, just as people are with

their global, you know, experience of becoming travelled

around and more knowledgeable, but actually, they become more

wise with that knowledge as well, way ahead of our time.

That that is something that I see is going to change a lot

further down the line. And I know that couldn't be perhaps a

contesting comment of mine.

Eveline Oehrlich: And I see that with my daughters as well, as I

was said I was visiting with them in the US with Christmas,

and both of them are professionals. One is an

architect. The other one is an analyst for like, they say that

apple doesn't fall far from the tree. She's in service

management, actually. But But both have very different EQs

than what I would say I had when I was their age, right, the 27

and 25. So absolutely, I think the generational challenges

there will be will we who are I'm a baby boomer, can we learn?

Will we be open enough to adopt? I see that DevOps Institute as

well, we have many young folks who I can learn from, and I

enjoy working with them, because I'm open, but not everybody can

be and will learn. And that gets me to another question. And I

know we are. This one is a little bit around learning.

continuous learning is something we talk a lot about, and a lot

of the HR or learning and development folks aware and

familiar with that. And in this learning also is a key principle

within DevOps. Is that applied within the healthcare industry?

Hazel Chappell: Oh, my goodness, absolutely. Yes. And I would

actually say certainly within biomedicine and beyond as well,

why because it's bad staying relevant. There is so much

innovation, as we know, that's already there, that's coming

down the stream as well. And it's actually about, we need to

be prepared for the unexpected. So whether it is actually you

know, here in Austin as well, you've got the army futures

command, who are looking at innovative ways of for out in,

you know, for the health of their soldiers out in the

warfield. And that is actually happening within healthcare as

well. So even if you take diabetes, how it was treated

years ago, and where it is now, there is a need for clinical

continuous learning. But in terms of businesses, well, you

know, I mentioned earlier about few takasi, and workforce, and

how are we learning and adapting, you know, I was even

looking at the other day, the 20 to 50 new buzzwords of 2020 3am.

I balk in one way, because in some cases, we have to use those

words in our daily deliveries or presentations or whatever,

because other people will be using them. But at the same

time, I'm a big fan of just keeping it plain English. But

when we take, you know, web three and Metaverse and

blockchain from a technology point of view, it is important

even for somebody like myself, who is not Well, shall we say,

let me put it the inverse. There are the technology experts out

there, there are the clinical experts out there. But it is

important that I have an understanding of what this is

about, to be able to do the advisory and consulting as well,

you know, within the the area of business that I that I'm in. So

continuous learning as well, then from an individual point of

view view is always about being self curious. You know, I have

actually created this diagram and this is purely from my

experience of getting unexpectedly involved in

cybersecurity through an absolutely awesome leader,

Charles Archer, and it was actually the exposure to

cybersecurity, that helped to I suppose, develop my curiosity

and in turn that motivated me. So when I look at that And then

the motivation continues my curiosity to keep going and

become cyclical. So there, I've approached your questions from

different aspects. But inherently, you know, I would

always encourage somebody to learn continuously. And I guess

really, you know, an aberration of mine is when people talk

about retiring or don't retire, or shall we say they step back

from their current job at a certain age, so nobody, I know

lots of people who never retire, continuous learning for them,

it's just, you know, it's fantastic to actually see it in

the atrium for the health of the mind, for actually, to my point

in staying relevant. So whether it's technology, I've had the

opportunity to be involved in an absolutely phenomenal effort

here within North Austin. And it's about, you know, supporting

the age and the health and prevention of as well. So those

are different factors from a health point of view. And then

also as well, as I say, innovation is coming down the

line. So whether it is something from cell and gene therapy,

right through to two technologies. I will go back to

why I'm talking about continuous change. It's not going to stop.

Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah. So you said curiosity and excitement.

We do know and read about, you know, quiet quitting, and

burnout and all of that. And I don't want to belittle it,

because it's existing. But as we have a lot of different

listeners from the digital natives, to Gen Z's to Baby

Boomers to maybe some folks who are, as you said, stepping back,

I love that, because I don't really like the word retirement,

I'll never will retire, I'll just step back. But given that

there is also lots of curiosity, and you said you fell into the

cybersecurity because you were curious, what would you advise

some of our listeners to think do or take on to enter the

healthcare industry? Because the healthcare industry vertical,

not just in the US, not just in Europe, across the globe, is

essential for all of us. Because as you said, we need healthy

people we need, we need a healthy planet, but without

healthy people, we can't have a healthy planet. So a couple

words for some advice, what should people think about when

they are due when they want to enter the healthcare industry?

Hazel Chappell: So if I may ask you a question everlean. So that

I can answer your question more articulately? Do you mean from a

technology point of view? Or actually from the care aspect?

Eveline Oehrlich: Both actually technology? Of course, you know,

that's important. Like you said, cybersecurity, and whatever else

is in there. So maybe we go there first. And then from the,

the, the other, the other perspective, what type of

people? What do I need to think about what skills should I have?

And how should I get in? What What should I learn? How should

I prepare? And yes,

Hazel Chappell: so I guess contrary to what you might

think, I'm a great believer, I'm being cynical, but myself there.

I'm a great believer in talking to people and seeking out the

right people who can give their point of view. And, you know, I

have a daughter who's lucky now to what area of her career is

she going to go in, and one can have an inherent instinct of

maybe what good could look like or what their skill set could

be, you know about, but it's also in actually talking to

people and understanding, or sometimes unexpectedly, it's

having that experience that can really just cement where their

area is about having the experience, you know, this is

why they're interns out there are internships I say, as well

to give that experience, volunteer some time, you know,

so whether it's first aid or whether it is actually just I

you know, what can what can I do? There was a point in my

career where I wasn't sure did I actually want to go into

catering so I just literally took I took a bone to Pro to

rang up the top hotels in Dublin and asked can I go and join in

their kitchens for a day, I was lucky that I was actually able

to join the executive chefs and one of Dublin's top hotel. And

to this day, if somebody gave me it to me as a present, it is the

most invaluable because I had the experience the understanding

and to really make that decision. So now cooking is my

passion rather than actually my my my way of living. But so

that's what I would say just reach out to people don't be

afraid to, you know, the right people will want to help and

actually support the younger people coming about or whether

it is it's actually just a complete change of career and

industry in some capacities, because now, a lot of days I see

for example, when I take organizations and look at their

cyber posture, you know, one on one, shall we say, it is

actually industry agnostic, it is using those commonalities.

And then actually, how can you match and transplant and

certainly my experiences, there will be one person who you will

always remember their words and their sayings and maybe you

know, one day become their mentor as well.

Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful. All right. I have one more question

for you completely different. You already mentioned something

you're doing for fun, which is cooking, but what else do you do

for fun Hazel?

Hazel Chappell: Oh, wow. Now I have a big smile on my face. So

I it can be anything from half a day I flipped my daughter

because we literally and this is a very Irish saying when we're

together having fun, we can be to tittering twits to me

laughter is absolutely is you know, raises the endorphins and

I am so so blessed that I get that with my daughter so so

much. And when I have fun, am I kind of need to, you know, I

suppose clear a few cobwebs. I love doing tennis. So to me

sport in any capacity, even if you're not sporty is good for

the mind and the soul. It can be very relaxing as well. I'm a

little bit of a social butterfly, and it goes back to I

am very blessed to have good people around me that yet again

and I'm unexpectedly finding myself saying that laughter fun

humor is is how I expel an intern. Have fun. And also

remaining curious.

Eveline Oehrlich: If you ever get close to Stuttgart Germany,

please ring me up. I'd love to hang out with you. I invite you

to come and we'll have fun and laugh together. We have been

talking to Hazel Chapelle, global thought leader within the

healthcare industry. Hazel, thank you so much for joining me

today on humans of DevOps. And for our listeners humans of

DevOps podcast is produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio

production team includes Julia Papp and Brendan Lay. I am the

Humans of DevOps Podcast Executive roducer Eveline

Oehrlich. If you would like to join us on a podcast, please

contact us at Humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com.

I'm Eveline Oehrlich talk to you soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of

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