Erin Hynes: When you think of travel to Canada, what do you think of?

I'm guessing most people think about beautiful nature and

scenery, ice hockey, maple syrup, and maybe the extreme Canadian

politeness that we're so famous for.

But these aspects are just a very small piece of Canada's cultural

identity and tourism identity.

Canada has a long, rich, and diverse history that was shaped

by the people who were here first.

Canada's First Nations.

Today we're unpacking why indigenous history, tradition, and practice has

been missing from Canadian tourism, why and how it should shape more

of the travel industry in Canada.

And what we can learn from indigenous practices when it

comes to responsible tourism.

Here to discuss is Keith Henry, who is a leader in indigenous tourism across

the country as well as internationally.

He is a Metis person, born in Thompson, Manitoba.

Raised in Prince Albert Saskatchewan, and currently Keith is the president

and c e o of the Indigenous Tourism Association of Canada.

Kattie Laur: Okay.

If this is the first time you've listened to Alpaca My Bags, you've

got an entire season to go through.

But if this is the first time, please make sure that you've hit the follow button

right now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, because

we have one more episode this season and you don't wanna miss what's coming

Erin Hynes: next.

If you wanna get in touch with us, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter.

We're at Alpaca My Bags

Kattie Laur: pod.

You can also DM us or even email us anytime.

All of our contact info is in the show notes.

Erin Hynes: Well, Katie, I think it's time we talk a little bit about Airbnb.

Oh God, yeah.

Kattie Laur: I think it's time.

Erin Hynes: So I don't know if you noticed, but in the fall, a new

hashtag started trending across basically like all the social apps,

and it was hashtag Airbnb bust.

And this arose because someone shared a screenshot.

Of a host ranting in a private Facebook group that's for Airbnb hosts.

Oh.

And they were ranting about how their bookings had dropped significantly.

Okay.

And then in the thread, there were all these other hosts saying,

yeah, the same has happened for me.

And.

This led to all this uproar, which had already started to be fair, I've seen

plenty of it on TikTok, all this uproar about the fees involved with Airbnb.

So when you book with Airbnb, I'm sure anyone who's listening to this

podcast and has booked an Airbnb knows the price you end up paying is

never what you think it's gonna be.

No, it's always significantly more, which is very frustrating.

Kattie Laur: It's at least, usually it's at least an entire

extra day's worth of money.

Erin Hynes: Exactly, and the fees, rightly so.

People have really questioned these fees.

So for example, the cleaning fee can be quite extreme and people take issue

with this, especially depending on where you are in the world, because

many hosts will be hiring labor for.

Criminally cheap to go in and do this cleaning, and yet they're charging

so much money to the actual renter.

Yeah, and there's just like other odd things that have happened.

Like for example, when I rented an Airbnb to work out of in Mexico,

I had debated hard whether or not I was gonna go with Airbnb or not.

And the reason just to justify the reason I did it is because

I needed to have a good kitchen.

Because I have to cook for myself, especially when I'm traveling

solo because of my food allergies.

Anyways, when I rented this place, I showed up and the host told me that

there was gonna be an extra fee that I had to pay in cash to use the ac.

No.

What?

Yeah, and to be fair, like I don't.

Use AC a lot of the time when I travel.

So I didn't use it cuz I was like, I'm not paying this guy.

Like for this.

He didn't tell me that this was a fee anyways, so I just didn't use it.

And it's not like it was a lot of money, it was just the fact that like

there was no transparency about this.

Yes.

I

Kattie Laur: was just talking to a friend today about two experiences

that they had with Airbnb.

One was, They booked an Airbnb with a sauna, uh, a wood burning sauna,

and they got there and they had not been transparent about the fact

that they had to bring their own wood for the sauna to make it work.

They like.

Booked it for the novelty of the sauna.

And then the same thing happened with, they booked it for the

novelty of a hot tub, like a different Airbnb, which I always do.

I always book Airbnbs with hot tubs.

That's like the only reason why I book Airbnbs basically is for the hot tub.

They showed up to their Airbnb and their hot tub had no water in it

and they could not use the hot tub, and they were not told this at all.

And then when they reached out to the, the host, they were like, oh yeah, the

hot tub isn't available between this month and this month because of the winter.

Uh, and they were like, well, could you at least tell us this?

And they ended up getting a refund.

But like, what the heck?

Yeah.

It's sneaky behavior.

It's sneaky

Erin Hynes: behavior.

It is.

I just think Airbnb is just not what it used to bes, because I think about

the early days, it used to really be about like, Connecting with other

people like Luke and I used to rent out a room in our apartment on Airbnb.

This is part of how we made like travel accessible back in the day

when we had very low paying jobs and could barely afford to travel.

Our thing was that we would rent out the extra bedroom in our

apartment and we would do it for a couple weeks every month.

To just make extra money to help us travel.

And we actually loved doing it because people would come from all over the world.

We had guests from Japan, we had guests from Brazil, like literally

all over the world, and we always had such a great time with our guests.

We would like hang out with them, cook dinner with them,

give them recommendations.

It was so fun.

But I feel like that.

Early essence of Airbnb just isn't what it's become anymore.

Well, okay, so did

Kattie Laur: we talk about the full on chores that come with Airbnbs too?

Because this is what makes me so mad these days now, is that you will

still get charged a cleaning fee, but also be given like a whole list

of chores to do before you leave.

And this is something that I saw in a recent TikTok where this

woman was, uh, expecting and was.

Willing to pay a cleaning fee, and it was about $75, which I looked up as sort of

the average of the cleaning fees on there.

I've seen them for like $300.

It's wild.

Oh, totally.

Yeah.

Um, and still this Airbnb gave her like a list of.

Please remove all of your bedsheets and start a load of laundry and wash all

of the dishes and do all these things.

And listen, when I used an Airbnb, I always wash my dishes.

I usually throw all my towels in the bathtub to let them know, and then I

usually leave the bed unmade to let them know that I was sleeping in it, but I'm

not gonna undo the bed and like start a load of laundry and like, let's be real.

A lot of these places, their checkout times are like, 10:00 AM And so

how early I've noticed this too.

Do I have to wake up to start my list of chores to then

be kicked out of your place?

Like I'm, it, it just, the audacity is getting way too

intense now, and I just, ugh.

I just like don't even know where to begin, let alone there's the

entire conversation of just like Airbnb's impact on our housing crisis.

Like, ugh.

It's just, Too damn much

Erin Hynes: for me.

Yeah.

There's so many issues when it comes to like drunk vacation and also

like labor is a big part of it.

And it's also a question of like, who is running and operating these Airbnbs?

Like who are they benefiting?

Are they benefiting like foreigners who move down to Mexico and buy up all the

property and then like profit off of it?

Like these are the big issues for me.

Mm-hmm.

But it's tough.

Like in some situations I do continue to use Airbnb just because like I.

Having a kitchen is so important to me when I'm traveling, and

hotels just are very expensive.

If you start getting hotel rooms that have kitchenette, this is why

I'm going back to like, I wasn't doing hostels for a while because of.

The pandemic mainly.

But when Luke and I travel now, like we're doing private rooms and hostels again and

using the kitchens, because that's like one of the big draws for me of a hostel.

I mean, the

Kattie Laur: community kitchen is better than nothing at this point.

Mm-hmm.

I was gonna say, one of the things that I've started doing is on Google

Maps searching b and b, because also this is a comment mark made yesterday.

What happened to the second B in Airbnb?

No one's providing me breakfast at Airbnbs, so

Erin Hynes: this is a good point.

Yeah, it's a big

Kattie Laur: scam.

There's only a bed and sometimes even the bed is sketchy, so it's

like, listen, I'm Googling, ah.

Actual BnBs, little small businesses.

And usually those places have like little communal kitchens.

Like sometimes they let you use their kitchen and they

prep all the breakfast for you.

But the one that we stayed at in Niagara Falls a couple years ago, they're

like, oh yeah, throw any of your like leftovers from restaurants in the fridge.

You can use our kitchen.

We just use it between this time and this time.

And it was very sweet.

So actual small businesses where you don't have to pay all those

fees and everything's just like tacked into the room rate, like.

That's the way to go for me right now.

Erin Hynes: Okay, so this brings me to my hack that I do okay often,

which is I will do research on Airbnb.

And then when I find places that I think are a good fit, I look for

clues in the listing and I use those clues to find them outside of Airbnb.

And I just message them directly.

I do this for Hostile World as well, like this is a hack.

I don't know if people know this, but like I'll look up hostels on hostel world and

then email the hostel directly to book.

Oh.

Cause then it's not going through this third party.

It's better for them.

It's better for me.

Same with Airbnb.

Airbnb doesn't want this hat to happen though, so like they try to

hide the clues, but you can, there's always a way you can always find it.

That's why

Kattie Laur: you can't send links through Airbnb and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm.

Or email addresses or phone numbers, cuz they don't want you to be able

to connect outside the platform.

I also used to work for a location scouting company that.

Did a very similar style marketplace business like this.

So I knew, I knew all these hacks too, because of course we did

not want people communicating outside of the platform, but Okay.

Aaron, tell me about what kind of clues you look for, like put on

your Benoit Blanc inspector glasses and tell me like what are the clues

that you look for in listings?

Erin Hynes: Almost always the best clue is the name of the listing itself.

Yes.

So, You know how they'll give like the listing a name?

Yeah.

It'll be called like something cabins.

Okay.

Like we did this in Belize.

Like there was a place called like, I forget what it was called.

It was called something Cabins.

That name was in the Airbnb listing and reading it, you would think,

oh, they've just like called it that for the sake of this listing.

But we went and Googled it.

And it turned out they had a website and you could email them directly.

Kattie Laur: So you just copy paste the name of the listing into Google search,

Erin Hynes: not the full name of the listing, cuz usually the

listings will say something, cabins, great location, blah, blah, blah.

Just look for the clues like related to the name.

Hmm?

Like use whatever they're calling the place.

Yeah.

This works for me almost all the time.

Or you Google the name of the host.

Or you just Google rental properties in the area and you

cross reference, cuz the photos are not gonna That's what I was gonna

Kattie Laur: say.

I was gonna say that too.

Like if something looks like somewhere where they would host multiple people or

it's a business of some kind, like a cabin or a cottage, or like there's multiple

rooms there, then you can just literally Google that area and then cross-reference,

cross-reference reference.

Erin Hynes: Yeah, but I would say like 88% of the time, putting in

the name that they use to call themselves on Airbnb finds them.

Kattie Laur: These are our secret hacks, but probably most people are doing this.

I'm sure

other

Erin Hynes: people are doing this, but in case you're not, this is, this is

the way, yes, this is the way, but also.

I'm a hostile person and the pandemic really ruined that for a while.

But I'm just finding ways to like be safe in hostels.

Like when we were in Belize, like a lot of the hostels we stayed in were

open air, so it felt pretty safe anyways cuz the kitchen was open air.

We had a private room, so I'm pretty comfortable again with hostels.

I won't do dorm rooms.

I think I'm too old for that now.

But yeah, private rooms and hostels

Kattie Laur: all the way.

I feel like that pretty much says it all, other than there is a really

great episode of a podcast called Calling Bullshit that is all about

Airbnb and their sketchy practices.

So I would definitely highly recommend taking listen to that.

Mm-hmm.

Erin Hynes: Podcast also.

Paige McClanahan, who we've had on the show, she has written some great

articles on the New York Times about Airbnb, so definitely look up her work.

If you wanna read more about this.

Yeah, we can link those in the show notes,

Kattie Laur: definitely.

Okay.

Shall we get into this conversation with Keith, cuz it

was such a good conversation.

I'm so excited about it.

Me too.

Erin Hynes: Yeah, let's do it.

Hi Keith.

Welcome to Alpaca My Bags.

We're super excited to chat with you today because there's tons to learn from

indigenous communities and practices when it comes to responsible tourism.

But before we dive in, I wanted to start by asking about your work at the

Indigenous Tourism Association of Canada.

Can you tell us a bit about your role there and the overall

goals of the organization?

Yeah,

Keith Henry: it's a pleasure being on the show.

Of course.

Um, we're a national indigenous tourism representative body.

We, uh, represent the interests of about 1900 indigenous owned businesses

from every part of this country.

I have a national board, one indigenous board member from every province

and territory in this country.

And of course we have a management team.

So I have the.

Unique role of, uh, building IAC is sort of a hybrid between a traditional

tourism marketing body, a lot of development pieces in addition to

that, and also we do a lot of advocacy with our federal partners in Ottawa.

Right.

Erin Hynes: And on that note, we read that the Indigenous Tourism Association

of Canada has just renewed a three year agreement with Parks Canada.

And this is a pretty significant headline for Canadian tourism.

Just to lay some context, parks Canada is the agency of the government of Canada

that manages the country's national parks, national marine conservation areas,

national historic sites, and way more.

For example, I have spent a lot of time in Point Peely National Park in Ontario.

It's the southern mist point of the Canadian mainland, and it's this

huge chunk of land with a beach and camping and hiking and bike trails.

Point Peely is just one example of a natural area that falls

under Parks Canada management.

So I think it's really encouraging to see the partnership between Parks

Canada and the Indigenous Tourism Association of Canada continue.

Um, but could you talk a bit about the intent behind the partnership

and what you're expecting to see as a result of the contract?

Yeah,

Keith Henry: we have a, a very proud relationship with Parks Canada here.

And, um, you know, there's significant tracks of land in this

country that has been designated as federal parks locations, right?

And they overlap and intersect with many indigenous communities.

The M O U itself is to continue building on some of our past work to actually

help indigenous tourism businesses either get created or enhanced that

are within the parks, lands areas, you know, whether it's in Haida

Gwaii or in the torn Gatz Mountain with the base camp and a partnership

with the Inuit community there.

There's a number of these businesses that have been evolving.

That are indigenous owned and operated, and we're trying to work with parks to

how do we continue on that development side and on the marketing side, how

can we work side by side with parks to really help the world understand

that parks are also an amazing dis indigenous destination and part and

parcel of everything that Parks Canada has to offer and help the world explore.

So I do think things are gonna continue to increase substantially because of that.

It's been a very important relationship, one of many in this country.

Erin Hynes: Absolutely.

You actually jogged my memory of a couple years ago I was traveling

in BC and I took some logging roads down to see these hot springs.

I can't remember exactly where, but it was like somewhat close

to Whistler and the hot springs were managed and operated by the

indigenous community that lived nearby.

And I remember thinking like that.

That was so great and being surprised because in Ontario,

I don't feel like you see.

As much of this in the parks.

Just wondering if you have any thoughts on that.

Keith Henry: You know, parks Canada is a very big organization and, and

it's got many moving parts, so you're right in some parts of the country,

parks Canada has very productive and constructive relationships with

the local indigenous community.

And people, you know, they've changed names to more

indigenous, uh, terminologies and they've really embraced that.

Other parts of the country have some work to do and I think that.

This M o u we've got with Parks Canada to bring a more, uh, I guess

a more unified approach to how we help create feasible and sustainable

indigenous tourism experiences together.

And, uh, and really brings that, we're hoping that part of this relationship

brings a consistency across the country that, um, It needs to be improved,

in our opinion, in many parts of

Erin Hynes: the country.

Yeah, for sure.

And actually that's something I, I've noticed often when I

travel in Western Canada versus Ontario where I live full-time.

I even notice in the signage, like when I drive around in BC and

Alberta, like often you'll see the indigenous names on signs as well.

Whereas in Ontario, I don't feel like that's as done

cohesively across the province.

No, it, it,

Keith Henry: it's not.

And, and it's a missed opportunity.

Where it's not done because what is of interest to domestic and international

visitors is learning about the original history and story of the lands and.

Parks is one of those areas where they do have tremendous signage.

They've got the tools to, you know, include and they have,

uh, you know, they have certain just supports they can do that.

I would argue it's more accessible.

So I think that it's a missed opportunity in any part of the

country where we don't embrace.

Place names and cuz what we wanna do is create curiosity, right?

We want visitors to go, oh, what does that mean?

I didn't know anything about that.

And that's typically the experience.

You just talked about it.

The reflections of BC and Alberta.

I mean that should be the experience across the country cuz so many people

just don't know what they don't know.

Erin Hynes: I agree and it's so frustrating because it seems like such

a simple thing to do that would be like so enriching and not just for Canadians.

I think it's like incredibly important for Canadians to be learning this history, but

like also for people visiting from abroad.

Keith Henry: Absolutely.

Like, you know, for Canadians we talk about reconciliation and action and

what are we, we live at a time in this country where we are reconciling

our past or we're trying to.

I would argue that one of the easier ways to do that is start

bringing back place names.

And really it's just a matter of, of just perception and public support and,

and it's, it's not damaging anything.

I know people kind of feel that the name they thought they knew for the

last number of decades is, is the name, but the truth is there's not

a part of these lands in Canada that weren't named something else prior.

Like, that's just a fact of, of indigenous occupation across Turtle Island.

So, I just think that we, we should do this in a good way.

It actually makes sense and I think it supports reconciliation.

On the international side, it's equally as, as people wanna understand, like they,

the international world doesn't think of Canada as a major indigenous destination.

I mean, we've done enough serving to know that, but when they get here

and they see it, it makes them very.

Curious and they wanna explore more.

And so I just think it's a win-win for all of us, not just indigenous

businesses and communities.

Erin Hynes: Yeah, absolutely.

We actually did an episode on the show about two years ago with Ryan McMahon

and we talked about how New Zealand has very much made indigenous culture

part of their tourism identity and.

We just thought that was so incredible and like we're wondering why that hasn't

happened so much So in Canada, boy,

Keith Henry: that's a, that touches a big put uh, button

for me too because you're right.

New Zealand has embraced the brand the, that it's integral central

to their tourism experience.

And when you think of New Zealand, you think of Maori

people automatically, whereas.

In Canada, it's fair to say that most international guests would probably

think of Canada as R C M P, maple syrup, you know, not necessarily an

exclusively indigenous set of concepts.

So we are working with Destination Canada and others like Parks Canada to indigenize

that thinking, and I think we're gonna get there, but, The difference, what it means

for New Zealand is it, it actually drives their tourism economy substantially.

Where, you know, one in four visitors spend actually money

in, in cultural experiences.

That's why they come there.

Whereas in Canada, even those as great a business as we have

in parks and other parts of the country, it's only 2% of the spend.

So the demand is far higher than 2%, but we're, we haven't figured

out as an industry or a country that there's a lot more opportunity here.

Erin Hynes: To go back to talking about reconciliation in a bit

more depth, I'm wondering what you think this partnership plays.

In the road to reconciliation, like how could it foster a community and cultural

understanding and learning between settler Canadians and indigenous communities?

This

Keith Henry: is a very important opportunity for parks and industry

bodies like IAC because there's about 301st Nation communities

that are resident within Parks designated lands in this country.

There's some other sort of, uh, Inuit and some first and some Metis

sort of, uh, settlements in that scattered without through Parks.

Lands, and.

What I think this relationship needs to continue to evolve is how are we helping

parks present their parks experiences?

It's gotta be a cornerstone of how we position parks, you know?

Right.

From their imagery to the experiences to, you know, we want, we want visitors

to have an understanding of the original inhabitants of the land, regardless of

which indigenous community they're from.

And when we talk about tourism, I believe indigenous tourism is

reconciliation in action, right?

I mean, People aren't sure how to support reconciliation effectively.

So the, the fact is parks can provide the platform where people

can go, experience, whether it's, you know, on the land, ecotourism,

kayaking, learning together with elder storytelling, artisan experiences.

There's a ton of ways we see manifesting, but our challenges, we haven't, we don't

see the marketing and the investment for development yet that we need to see to,

to get those businesses to the next level.

So, In our mind, this m o U was important cuz we wanna continue to

help shape the pathway for parks and others to more effectively build

those businesses in those areas.

Erin Hynes: I like that you bring up marketing cuz I, I work in marketing

myself, so I think about this a lot and something I think about a lot when it

comes to tourism is a lot of people's travel decisions are shaped by marketing

and they may not ever even realize that.

And so I'm curious like what you think.

It would take through like marketing avenues to make people think more

about like choosing indigenous tourism and choosing indigenous experiences

when they're traveling in Canada.

Keith Henry: Well, I, I believe that marketing is absolutely

critical to our challenge.

And for indigenous tourism.

We just did a, uh, study with JE on domestic insights within Saskatchewan

and Atlantic Canada's four provinces.

And the intention and the interest was about close to 90% of a consumer

group of roughly 1500 people.

But the awareness.

The knowledge was less than 25%.

So we continue to see these kind of metrics where whether it's domestic

or international, this country has yet to invest, uh, strategically in a

way to create the consumer's mindset.

You're right, I mean, people are motivated.

They don't even, they create a movie in their mind, as you say.

And they don't even know what this movie is like.

They don't even understand that indigenous tourism might be elder storytelling

or singing and dancing and maybe some artisan work, but it also could be

going to an outdoor adventure and a completely fun activity to, you know,

staying at an indigenous owned hotel with cultural themes like there's

such a diversity of our businesses.

But the visitor, really, if you ask most visitors, and we are

doing consumer research that shows.

They don't even know how to create the image in their mind.

They don't know what the image is.

So we as a country, including parks, including Destination Canada, including

all of our marketing partners, you know, ask yourself how much money

gets spent in Canada marketing domestically and internationally, and,

and, you know, it's, it's close to 400 million pre pandemic and we're, we're

getting back to those levels again.

How much of that actually gets spent on marketing and, and tactically supporting

awareness of indigenous experiences?

It's less than 1%.

So it's no surprise that 2% are spending the money on indigenous experiences.

We have to, if we want economic reconciliation as an industry,

we have to tackle that.

That missed opportunity, cuz it is if we care what the consumers want.

Indigenous tourism is very high and top of mind for many visitors.

Erin Hynes: Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, like I actually am a travel blogger myself,

so I write about travel a lot.

I have a presence across like different social channels.

And because I cover a lot of Canadian tourism, I often get asked by people

and I, I've started like trying to include indigenous experiences

in all of the guides that I write.

Which brings me to a question, like what role do you think that.

Bloggers and influencers and people who are part of that like sort of

influencer region of marketing.

Like what can they do to support this mission?

Keith Henry: Uh, bloggers and all those social influencers are very important for

us at, at indigenous tourism, and we want bloggers to recognize the tools they have.

You know, we've got an inventory of images and b-roll and, and things that

can really inspire the imagination.

Uh, at indigenous tourism.ca.

We've got a consumer platform that we've been investing and building for the last

number of years@destinationindigenous.ca.

We want bloggers and influencers to use our hashtags, whether it's original,

original as we we build that new brand.

Like those are things are tools we need to inform that network of, and

they're, they're critically important for our overall marketing piece.

So I think, um, we continue to rely on that.

Each year we try and.

Uh, invest in some of those activities, but the truth is we continue to hope

people come back to our platforms and realize how they can share and,

and find the authentic experiences.

So,

Erin Hynes: And amplify.

And I always tell people like, even if you are not like a big

influencer, even if you're just like sharing your personal travels, like

using those hashtags and amplifying those experiences is still helpful.

Keith Henry: Absolutely.

I mean, I'm president and CEO and I'm, I do my little bit here and there and I

cannot believe how many just people in my friendship network I've influenced

to go pick an indigenous owned hotel versus another option because they

felt they wanted to support indigenous.

Uh, tourism experiences and part of that is hotels, transportation,

accommodation, food services.

You know, unless I told them, they wouldn't have known.

So that's why I personally know as, uh, in my position here and with

our marketing team, how important those influencers are at all levels.

Erin Hynes: Katie.

As you know, travel for me doesn't always go according to plan.

Kattie Laur: Oh, I am well aware having made over 80 episodes of

this podcast, I know that mishaps can happen when anyone travels.

Erin Hynes: Absolutely.

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So we've actually noticed that some sectors are starting to look to

indigenous practices to learn how to do things in a more mindful way.

For example, we recently noticed the Ontario based architecture firm to row

architect is designing buildings with indigenous values at the forefront.

So when it comes to tourism, what role would you say that indigenous

communities and practices are currently playing in the industry?

It might just be my own sense, but I feel as though they're underrepresented.

Keith Henry: Yeah.

I think you're a hundred percent correct in that the industry may not understand,

but the consumer is definitely becoming more and more acutely aware of the fact is

when Covid 19 hit the world as hard as it did over the last three years, it really.

It looks like in our, uh, from our research that consumers

continue to top of mind is.

We aren't living sustainably, and this planet will not maintain the itself in

terms of the environment and the way we think it would always stay because of

the unsustainable things we're doing.

And what I find is that we're hearing more and more from consumers.

We wanna.

Come visit indigenous experiences cuz we wanna learn from indigenous

people, we wanna understand their values, so maybe it'll give me

a different world perspective.

So we are hearing more and more of that, uh, from Canadians and of course

visitors from abroad looking to come in.

It definitely creates such a heightened sense of how important

we as humans have value.

So I really feel.

I don't know where that's gonna lead us over the next two, three years, but I,

I think demand is, is gonna continue to accelerate at a level we haven't ever

seen before, uh, for indigenous tourism in

Erin Hynes: Canada.

And like, it's hard, right?

Because we talk about this, this, on this show often that like, Tourism

isn't particularly sustainable.

We need like systemic change to make it sustainable.

And that's, I guess where I think like maybe turning to indigenous

communities and voices more could really lead us in the right direction

for like finding the keys to that systemic change that we need so badly.

I,

Keith Henry: I, I agree with you.

I, I know tourism is always challenged cuz of.

And our, our industry continues, like, you know, we, we, we hear about these

sort of airplanes are now, some of them in bc we've now got Harbor Air

now has electronic airplanes, uh, flow planes going back and forth.

So, so there are adjustments, but the truth is what I think tourism

can do for, for indigenous peoples.

Help us share those values.

Help us as indigenous people.

Teach the world that wants to be taught about what it means to be

sustainable and living within your territory and living within the

resources and the means that you have.

And so we do have a lot of experiences that offer those, those kind of

adventures, storytelling, teachings, and that really is become, I think tourism

can be a force of good in that regard.

But the challenge will always be we help, we have to help the industry realize.

This race to economic metrics is not always the only factors

we should be looking at.

We, in indigenous tourism in Canada continue to try to bring to the forefront

values of community wellbeing, social stability, cultural revitalization.

So the rest of the industry needs to embrace that and we have a ways to

go to getting to those kind of, sort of other sort of measures of success.

Erin Hynes: So I'm also curious about your thoughts on how accessible

indigenous tourism experiences are across Canada right now.

Do you think that like cultural experiences and opportunities for

learning indigenous stories and histories could be more at the forefront?

Because I'm just thinking, like even about my own experience here,

living in Toronto, like spending so much time in the city, I don't feel

like it really is at the forefront of tourism, especially in the city.

No,

Keith Henry: it, it's not.

It depends.

When I, when I think of accessibility, it depends on where you are and how the

industry is developed in that area, right?

And so we've got parts of this country where indigenous

tourism is extremely accessible.

You know, our offices in Vancouver, we've got, and I have to say

locally here, we've got some great.

Experiences, right?

I mean, Talla Tours and Stanley Park is a guy to walking tour.

We've got, squat Lodge is a boutique hotel downtown.

You know, we've got, um, you know, a number of businesses, uh, like Salmon

and Bannock, nice boutique restaurant.

The tourism ministry here has really embraced and included

indigenous experiences.

That's not the case across the country, right?

In Toronto with, there's a lot more potential.

There's been some culinary businesses there and experiences in the past, but.

The industry hasn't really rallied behind it as, as effectively as I think it could.

Um, I'm seeing things change now, but it's no different than Parks Canada.

Like we, we at IAC have to help continue to provide the, I guess,

the arguments and rationale as to why these are really important investments,

uh, beyond the social license issues and, and political issues.

So it's, it just, like I said, accessibility comes down

to, depending where you are.

We do our best at Destination Indigenous to provide people to where really

those market and ready businesses are.

And, and there's a lot more in the hopper, but it's, uh, we've got a long ways to

Erin Hynes: go.

And I also think about accessibility in terms of like what tourists

and also just local people are like physically able to access.

Cause I'm very privileged in that I have my mobility, I'm able to drive to parks

outside of the city to enjoy nature.

But then the lack of, of experiences available in Toronto.

Are frustrating because it's like not everyone has a car.

Not everyone has the time to go and travel to a park, and so sometimes I

wonder if like, Having more presence in the cities is just as important.

Keith Henry: It is, it is.

It's definitely our anchor sort of, um, um, businesses are there because

what, what we are continuing to try and figure out is, and, and, and expand

on is how can we take larger urban centers and, and you know, get some

initial excitement and people exploring and then hopefully that'll, you know,

motivate them to want to go out and, and explore indigenous experiences.

A lot of the businesses we have are in the rural remote, the northern parts of

the country, that it does take a fair amount of transportation to get to them.

And, um, we do have a segment of visitors that really will go to

great lengths to get anywhere to, to visit authentic experiences.

But many Canadians need that convenience and understanding locally too.

So it's always a, it's a bit of a, it's a really big challenge for us.

Erin Hynes: We actually touched on this, um, in a recent episode of ours.

It was episode 86 where we talked with Paris Marks, and the

entire episode was just about why Canada is so hard to get around.

In general, the lack of transportation that's available

in some regions of the country.

And they brought up the fact that Canada's lack of accessible transport

infrastructure has also left indigenous communities highly isolated.

And when they're isolated like that, it's harder to even

introduce tourism in that area.

Keith Henry: Well, that's exactly it.

You know, I'll give you an example of one of many.

None of it.

There's many indigenous.

I operators trying to create businesses.

But the truth is even just getting flights in, uh, that aren't already

pre-booked with existing just community passengers going back and forth to the

south, like there's just very little room on many of those flights for additional

passengers, nevermind the capacity for trying to create a business out of it.

And so we see those challenges.

It's the same with Yellow Knife, you know, yellow knife, um, air Canada,

and some of the carriers have reduced.

Flights to Yellowknife.

Well, that has absolutely had a massive, devastating impact on some

of our local indigenous operators at, you know, Aurora Village, north

Star Ventures, many others that that required those, those visitors to get on

those airplanes to get to Yellowknife.

Just simply, there's not the capacity anymore.

And so these are very, very large challenges, and it is

disproportionately affecting the ability for entrepreneurs and communities

to create sustainable businesses.

Erin Hynes: How do we approach tackling these issues?

Like does it make sense to approach them at the same time or do you think it's like

we need to focus on certain issues like transportation, infrastructure, um, before

tourism is introduced in those more remote

Keith Henry: areas?

Well, the challenge I've got is that tourism's already been introduced to

these areas and there's been a reduction.

Post development, right?

So, so we are tackling these issues concurrently, like no different,

like Parks is one of many partners.

We are trying to elevate the awareness of, you know, the challenges with.

Developing indigenous experiences and parks, lands, same thing with the north.

Like the North has very big challenges for, you know, particularly

transportation effectively in and out of the, whether it's Nunavut,

Northwest Territories or the Yukon.

And so, you know, we try and create partnerships with

the airline companies and.

Through those partnerships, explain the challenges that they're creating.

Often unaware of the impacts to our local indigenous tourism businesses and, and

the vision of other indigenous communities that wanna develop indigenous experiences.

So we're doing that concurrently, but it's, it's a, it's a

heavy load to be quite frank.

For

Erin Hynes: sure.

And I guess marketing also plays into this cuz I just think about like if

there are massive marketing campaigns showing Canadians that they can travel to

Yellowknife and have these experiences, then perhaps that leads to more consumer

demand on private entities like airlines.

To provide like the means to get to those experiences?

Keith Henry: Absolutely.

We, as an industry gotta continue to address the capacity challenges

collectively because as you said, you know, the Northwest Territories

does a really good job with their, uh, Northwest Territories tourism

to really promote Northern Lights.

And there's a, you know, continues to be a very large audience of

Canadians and as international tourism reopens wanna go there?

But the capacity challenges are real and it's already had a devastating

impact on this winter season so far.

So we, we do need, we, we need each other through these, whether it's de, it's not

just like a Destination Canada challenge.

It's all the, the tourism partners and an indigenous voice at that

table, making sure they understand the impacts to all of us collectively.

I think there's a real power

Erin Hynes: in that.

And I guess like there's also always the risk of like over-marketing

and bringing too many people to place, which is also something

we talk about often on this show.

It's like sometimes it can backfire and you end up with an unsustainable amount

of people in a destination, which I'm sure is like of special concern in more remote

Keith Henry: communities.

It's a major concern to indigenous tourism in general.

Most of our businesses are not, Ever going to be able to be large tourism,

like we're not bringing busloads of people one after the other to, uh,

mass tourism concepts those days.

We'll, never, we would never see that really supported in that way.

We're a really small group, you know, independent travelers style

businesses for the most part.

And we really try and market exclusively in that regard to, you know, various

platforms and, and, and, and networks because we just aren't mass and nor

do we, nor would I be in a position.

With communities and our businesses to support mass tourism.

Cause it, it's just not sustainable.

So there's a big challenge in the future because, as I said,

the demand is extremely high and the ab ability to access is, is

challenging as you've pointed out.

So I think these are gonna continue to be, you know, can we solve these

challenges into the future or not.

Right now we don't have the tools to do that.

Erin Hynes: And I guess like just thinking about the mass tourism point as well, when

I think about mass tourism, like in my own experience of it, in some destinations

around the world, like I don't find that it's very conducive to learning and I

feel like learning is such an important part of the indigenous tourism experience.

Keith Henry: Yeah.

This industry is often, when you look at traditional marketing, it's often

the big, you know, the open skies, the beautiful sunsets, the water,

the mountains, the lot of landscape.

Indigenous tourism is actually the people, it's the storytelling.

It's that sitting together and learning together.

So we're, we're really trying to focus on that kind of messaging.

Like what makes us special and unique is actually our people.

We might have a beautiful hotel and some world class cultural

centers, but it's not the brick and mortar that makes it special.

It's the story you got, the teaching you got.

And um, that is a very important piece of how we position and market.

Erin Hynes: So when people think about indigenous tourism, they

probably think mostly about seeking out tours or experiences that

are indigenous focused or led.

But I wanted to ask if you think there's also a way that people can

practice an indigenous mindset.

When it comes to travel, so that might guide them to travel in a more

mindful way or a more sustainable way.

I'm curious if you agree that this is a thing and what would

you say that mindset looks like?

Keith Henry: Yeah, it, it's absolutely very important and what we, what I

believe is important is that we, we encourage visitors to spend a bit of time

learning about destination, understanding the perspective of sustainability

while they're there, but particularly, especially with indigenous culture.

Are they practicing themselves to support authentic indigenous

products and experiences?

Did they go to the gift shop and buy a maid in China indigenous art

piece, because that's not helpful.

Like what we need to do is help people.

When you support local artists and a local community, you're leaving benefits

back in a way that that is actually much more effective to supporting

our local communities and economies and sustaining indigenous people's

livelihoods and and their culture.

So we want people to spend a bit more time in getting a little more awareness.

And not just, you know, running through gift shops and, and doing a fly by at

the totem poles in, in certain areas.

Like we want them to really, hopefully want to come explore and, and, and

look for it, you know, authentically owned indigenous products and services.

Cause that's the best way to.

Leave benefits behind for local communities and

Erin Hynes: cultures.

For sure.

I think like sometimes people might get caught up with the idea that like

they need to seek out a museum or like a tour that's indigenous when really

like you can have an impact just in the businesses that you choose to support

when you're traveling around Canada.

Keith Henry: Absolutely.

I mean, sure there's a large audience that will wanna go through museums or.

See an elder at some sort of cultural event.

And I, and we understand that and that's important, but I also would add, people

should think about where are they buying their, everyone buys things on their

holidays, so what are they buying?

Where's it from?

Do they know what's actually, you know, there's benefits.

Is this owned and operated by the communities or the artists?

I mean, really understanding the importance of.

Authenticity and indigenous ownership is really important.

Erin Hynes: So to shift gears a little bit, indigenous communities in Canada

have always had very deep and meaningful relationships with the land here.

Um, so I'm wondering if you have tips for how settler Canadians or people

visiting Canada can foster that same kind of deep relationship with nature when

they're exploring around the country.

It's,

Keith Henry: it sounds so easy, but it's actually, you know, it's a mindset, right?

And I would just say that many of our businesses now are, are

creating things like visitor pledges.

And we don't have a national standard on this yet, but we have, we see a lot

of our, our businesses are, you know, basically where the visitor commits it.

They won't leave garbage behind, they'll pick up after themselves.

They'll contribute to sort of just basic.

Characteristics of taking care of whatever you're, you're bringing in and

leaving with out of the, the community and, and how is that contributing?

You're not leaving non-recyclable goods behind, you know, all those sorts of

practices that the community's not left.

Figuring out how to deal with these, these materials and these challenges with.

All sectors of their public services that they provide.

So I think that it's important as an industry, we think about those visit

those type of visitor declarations or pledges and you know, I think the act

of itself of people just reading that and understanding about the impacts they

may be having to just water treatments, sewage, garbage, things left behind.

Those are those in itself.

Start changing the consciousness of visitors and their behaviors.

And I think we're seeing that in some areas where indigenous communities

and businesses just, you have no choice but to sign, otherwise you

won't be invited into their business.

So, so I think that we as an industry should ask ourselves.

What can we do in a positive, proactive way to, to introduce these kind of

concepts to the larger scale sector?

You

Erin Hynes: know, you reminded me, I actually was traveling in Iceland

earlier this year, and that's something I noticed all over Iceland.

And they were in the bathrooms.

They had, um, reminders.

It was like the 10 golden rules of how to treat nature with respect.

So like, They were in the bathroom stall, so you had no choice but to see it.

And I saw it all across the country.

And by the end of the trip I had these rules like almost memorized

because I had seen them so often.

And I remember thinking like, that's such a clever way to

get people to, to learn this.

Keith Henry: And, and I'm seeing more and more of our indigenous

businesses also lead by those examples.

And I would say that, I would assume those, those teachings

have stuck with you till today.

And so that in itself, like tourism can be such a force for good as, as I said prior.

And I think those are the things as an industry we need to embrace,

whether you're indigenous or not.

I mean, we, we can see the sustainability challenges growing,

not becoming, Not minimizing.

So I mean, those are things we're gonna have to tackle.

Cause we know tourism is gonna continue to rebound and travel

and the world is becoming smaller.

So these are things we can't take lightly.

Erin Hynes: And this actually brings me to a question that I've

noticed is being debated often in the travel and outdoor community.

And that's the idea of visiting untouched places.

Um, bloggers and influencers sometimes use that language and it seems to me, I.

It has a bit of a colonial undertone because I don't know, indigenous

communities have been here forever and know the land, and so is

anywhere really undiscovered.

I'm curious if this is a discussion that you've come across yourself

and if you have any thoughts on it.

Yeah,

Keith Henry: we see I have with many, you know, Whether it's economic development

leaders or indigenous entrepreneurs or or nations themselves, you see a

lot of that language in this industry.

You know, describing an area where it's like they were the first ones to

discover, and this was on, like, there was, there's been indigenous people on

every part of this land, of this country and water, uh, since time immemorial.

So it is a big challenge for us.

That's why, you know, with parks and all these partners, we're trying

to help them create an indigenous narrative because, The narrative

that is often perpetuated through those kind of storytelling platforms.

Is vacant of indigenous values.

And so it is a big issue in this industry.

We love to tell stories about, uh, iconic settlers and, and events that happened.

And, but the truth is the indigenous story was pre any of these.

So, I mean, we just gotta do, the challenge I have is that we have such a

resistance, it's like passive aggressive behavior for some of the, you know,

the partners that are out there because that's how they've sold that destination.

So the challenge is how do we do that in a way that will encourage them to embrace.

The truth and the true history of that area, that's gonna be

our challenge going forward.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

And I guess it kind of points to like how important, like even the simplest thing,

like the language that we use when we talk about tourism factors into moving

towards more indigenous focused tourism.

Keith Henry: No, absolutely.

I mean, um, it's just all about owning our truth.

Accepting it.

It's like, You know, it's like Canada going through residential school

awareness and realizing what happened with the history, the true history,

those stories were in our communities for decades, and people denied that history.

Now that bodies have been discovered that story's become

suddenly real for Canadians.

But the truth is that story's been real for families For a hundred plus years.

We either, as a country, embrace reconciliation and start.

Just realizing there's an advantage to, to embracing our true history, or we don't.

And then if that happens and we stay mirrored as an industry on

the tourism side in that, then we haven't achieved reconciliation.

To me, that's one of, that's another aspect of this industry that we've,

we've gotta stop perpetuating this notion of this colonial history exclusively.

We should embrace it because the world's interested in it, and we should be too.

Erin Hynes: When I think about using those words like undiscovered and untouched as

well, kind of like what you're saying, it feels like almost like it's erasure of the

fact that indigenous people have been here

Keith Henry: forever.

Yeah.

It's, it's not, feels like it is erasure.

It, it's, its a matter of we're telling a narrative that just is simply not true.

Like the nations use trade routes through every part of this land.

The waterways.

This continent was inhabited by hundreds of thousands of indigenous

people before Colonial impacts.

I mean, all across from coast to coast to coast.

So we need to be.

Practical about the history of that, those people and, and understand the oral

histories and just, and embrace that.

I think I, I keep saying as an industry, I'm, I'm shocked when people don't

embrace it because it's actually tells a really great, we're not making this up.

It's not disnifying the history of Canada.

It's telling the truth.

So I think there's excitement and, and I think visitors would find

that fascinating and I think, um, we hear that, we see that in some of

the research we do with consumers.

So its just a matter of how can we get.

Non-indigenous partners to realize the power of that and, and how

can we help them with, connect with the communities in a way that

they'll wanna share those stories.

Erin Hynes: Okay.

So we talk a lot on this podcast about responsible tourism, and we've talked now

about how there's so much to be learned from indigenous communities about how

responsible tourism can be approached.

Um, so Keith, just as we wrap up, I wanted to ask what responsible tourism

means to you, and if you have some responsible travel tips that people can

take away from indigenous practices.

I guess

Keith Henry: I sort of have a concept of what I think responsible tourism means,

and for, for indigenous tourism, I think it means that if you're gonna go into

a destination in this country, or we're gonna market and promote indigenous

tourism, our, our tourism in general, we need to be responsible and making sure

that we position indigenous culture as paramount to any of those trip itineraries

marketing tactics that, that it's part and parcel of the fabric of this country.

So, Being responsible from an industry side is one side of it and responsible

for the consumer is we want consumers to come explore, come learn, be patient.

Don't come with preconceived notions and or Hollywood stereotypes and learn.

I mean, the, the indigenous nations are many different cultures.

It's not one.

They're not homogenous.

There's great diversity of indigenous people in this country, and it's

exciting and interesting and so responsible on that side is just that

willingness to be open to come learn.

And then the other side of it is really find the authentic indigenous

products and services and experiences that really leave the benefits behind.

So those are all contributing to the overall envelope for what I

would call is responsible tourism.

Erin Hynes: Could you share some of your favorite indigenous

tourism destinations within Canada?

Maybe to, to inspire a couple listeners.

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Henry: It's always a, it's always a tough one because I, for everyone, I

don't acknowledge, but I will, I will say this, I definitely have a few,

you know, I near Quebec City, the, uh, Wenda with the hotel and they've

got this beautiful, uh, replica, first Nations longhouse, and you can actually.

You can stay in a hotel.

They got a beautiful cultural center and amazing culinary experiences there.

But you can actually spend an evening there and they do a

bannock on a stick evening event.

And I've done it, uh, with my family.

It's an amazing e experience and it's something more urban that people can,

it's just outside of Quebec City when Dakis, you know, like 25 minutes away.

You can easily get there.

And it's, it's a, it's beautiful hotels world class and the, the replica

First Nations longhouses world class.

Another one.

I love going, I love going to Haida Gwaii.

I find that to be an amazing getaway.

They've just updated, there's Haida house at Tal.

They've got these amazing cabins they've put in place, and they're

right on the beach, and I just find it very tranquil and just it's

indigenous themed and they've got local activities if you wanna immerse

yourself or you can just kind of have a retreat and get away in some solitude.

And I just find that is definitely another experience.

I will say I, a life-changing one for me was, uh, torn gats base camp.

I talked a little bit about that prior, but on the, uh, Northern Labrador

side, it's, I believe it's really the world's last true untouched safari.

I mean, there's amazing wildlife and just polar bears and

whales, and you're in this.

Place where there's, you know, it's, it's, you're in the middle of torn gats parks.

It's just a, I ha I can't explain it.

I can't do justice in words, but it just being immersed in the culture and

just having that experience and seeing how the Inuit people lived and this

amazing set of activities, I just.

I'll never forget that experience the rest of my life.

And I think that that is, was a life-changing experience for me.

Erin Hynes: Oh, you've, you've just made me feel like, oh, there's so much

I need to see, especially in Northern Canada that I haven't gotten to yet.

Keith Henry: Yeah, yeah.

They're, they're really, this is the best part of all these things that we have some

amazing experiences that are in sharing indigenous cultures, and I think so many

Canadians in the world are yet to realize.

And I just, um, I hope people come learn because when I saw how

they lived, for example, the torn.

It really brings home why sustainability and respect for your

environment and, and surviving in the environment was so important.

And I think it, it teaches you, it really does.

And I'm indigenous, but my community wasn't in that kind of

harsh environment to that extent.

And, and, and it's beautiful.

It, it was a, it's an beautiful area.

Like it's just an amazing place to be.

So I encourage people to, you know, these are all the kind of

things like we have on destination, indigenous, uh, uh, ca platform.

And I think people, I just hope people come explore.

Erin Hynes: I'm sure they will, and we will link Destination Indigenous in

the show notes for everyone to find.

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