Erin Hynes: Let me tell you about the last time I was in Nepal.

It was 2017.

I arrived exhausted after a long trip from Delhi and I was ready

to have a cold, tasty beer.

So I ordered one from my hostel's bar and I plopped down onto the

pillows of their rooftop common room.

When I finally lifted up the bottle, I noticed the label Everest Beer.

You cannot travel through Nepal without thinking about

the world's tallest mountain.

I browsed through little shops, filled with souvenirs, covered in images

of the Himalayan Mountain range.

I talked with other travelers as well as locals about the mountain.

I met hikers who were anxiously waiting for the weather to clear so

that they could take the famous and little bit treacherous flight from

Katmandu to Lukla, where they would start the Everest base Camp Trek.

And one sunny morning in Po Carera, Nepal, I picked up a book in my

dorm room left behind by another traveler called Into Thin Air.

This book by John Krakower Chronicles The Disastrous Day in May, 1996 when

eight climbers died in a blizzard near the summit of Mount Everest.

This book gave me a fascinating glimpse into what it takes to climb

the world's tallest peak and the minds of the people who do it.

And beyond that, I found myself starting to think about what Mount Everest means to

Nepalese people, how it's shaping Nepal's culture and its economy and its tourism.

This is Al Pack in my bags, the Responsible Travel Podcast here

to help you travel in a way that's better for you and for the planet.

I'm Erin Heinz, travel writer accompanied as always by my producer, Katie Lore.

And today we're chatting with Philip Henderson, a member of the

first all black team of climbers to have summited Mount Everest.

We'll also hear from Amra Ale and Hanta Nepali, two friends of Philips

who call Nepal home and have special connections to the local climbing

community as well as Mount Everest itself.

Kattie Laur: Okay.

Before we get into this, I have some exciting news to share.

Recently, episode 78 of Alpaca My Bags, which is all about the hippie

trail, was shortlisted at the 2022 Traverse Awards for best storytelling,

and probably even more exciting.

Is that Erin won a Traverse Award for best written piece for her

blog lessons from a Live Volcano.

And I'll link that in the show notes if you wanna read it.

But congrats, Erin.

Oh, thank you.

It's so exciting.

I'm so proud of you.

So as always, if this is the first time that you're listening to the

show, make sure you've hit the follow button right now on Apple Podcast,

Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you don't miss any of our episodes.

Erin Hynes: And if you wanna get in touch with us, you can find us

on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter.

Our handle is at alpaca my bank's pod.

And feel free to DM or email us anytime all of our contact

info is in the show notes.

Okay, so Katie.

Are you able to picture how high 8,800 meters, which is nearly 30,000 feet, is.

Kattie Laur: I'll be honest, I don't think my puny human brain

can like actually visualize this.

I think of 8,800 meters the same way that I think about

like the scale of the universe.

I just, I have no comprehension

Erin Hynes: of it.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like, It's hard because it's actually unimaginably high for the average person.

I, for example, have hiked to an altitude of about 4,000 meters, which is half

of Everest, and that was already mind blowing, like you are in the clouds.

It also like was impossibly hard, the idea of like doing that again,

like mind blowing, but to help.

You visualize it, the Birch Khalifa, which is in Dubai, and it's the

tallest building in the world.

It is 828 meters high, so Everest is at least eight Birch Khalifa

stacked on top of each other.

Oh my God.

Everest is also just below the height of the average cruising

altitude for commercial planes.

Kattie Laur: So when someone summits Mount Everest, they are as high up as

we are when we take a flight somewhere.

Yeah.

Erin Hynes: Isn't that wild?

That's like so insane to me.

Yeah, so I think a lot of people are fascinated by Everest because of its

height, obviously, but it actually has a really interesting history as well.

In 1841, the mountain was recognized as the tallest mountain in the

world by a British survey team.

This team was led by a man named, Sir George Everest.

And that's clearly how the mountain got its name.

It was named in 1865, but I think it's important to say the Tibetan

name for the mountain is Choma, which means mother Goddess of the world.

And Everest also has a Nepali name, which Issar Matha, which has various meanings.

Okay, so

Kattie Laur: first of all, classic, the white guy gets all the credit.

Mm-hmm.

And then, okay, so you said that it has a Tibetan and Anies name.

So Everest is actually sat in between two countries, right?

Erin Hynes: Mm-hmm.

It's part of the Maha Lger Mountain Range, which is on the

border of both Tibet and Nepal.

And it's funny you joke about the white guy getting all the credit

because of course, as we can all assume, these mountains have long

been home to indigenous groups that live in the valleys, including, as

most people know, the Sherpa people.

Which I think brings up another really important thing to know when talking

about Everest, and that is that the word Sherpa refers to an ethnic group.

That's

Kattie Laur: interesting because I feel like a lot of people think that Sherpa

are just mountain guides, like it's the name of a job that somebody has.

Erin Hynes: Mm-hmm.

It's become like synonymous with that.

It's probably because Sherpa have so much expertise and

experience in mountain climbing.

Sherpa live at a high altitude year round, and so they're very

accustomed to low oxygen levels.

Many of them can climb Everest like without any oxygen support at all.

And most climbs of Everest would like be completely impossible without the

Sherpa logistical help and knowledge.

That said, it's also important to say that the Sherpa way of life

is not just about Mount Everest or about helping Everest climbers.

Traditionally, their lifestyle has revolved around

farming, herding, and trade.

Okay, so the big question, Katie, do you think you would ever try to climb Everest?

And this is like you have 10 years to prepare money is no issue.

Kattie Laur: Listen, I think I probably would've thought that I could have done it

as a teen, because as a teen I was doing a lot of physical fitness stuff outside.

I was doing outdoor adventure races.

I was a forest ranger.

I was super fit.

So I mean, I love the outdoors and I love adventure sports, but.

Like I'm 30 years old now.

You and I even briefly talked about this in our space tourism episode,

that it's just, it's so easy to die on Everest regardless of how fit you are.

And so like right now, I'm so out of shape.

I could barely walk up the stairs without needing my inhaler.

So right now it's a no for me.

But I actually think that with 10 years of training under my belt, it

could actually be a maybe for me.

Really?

Yeah, I think like, I think I have the thing, that teenager thing where

you just feel like you're invincible Sometimes I just can't help but feel

like all of my wilderness training, I.

Would do me good.

Like I could actually get away with climbing and summoning Mount Everest if

I, if I had the 10 years of experience.

I

Erin Hynes: think like the biggest, the biggest hurdle is like the,

the climbing technical stuff.

But you can learn that.

You can learn that in 10 years easy.

I.

You've got time.

Oh, thank you

Kattie Laur: so much.

Maybe I can do it when I hit 40, like that'll be my big 40th thing

Erin Hynes: that I do.

Listen, a lot of people do it in their thirties, forties.

I think the oldest person who's climb Dees was in either their sixties or seventies.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

This

Kattie Laur: is very encouraging.

So the thing is also it's very easy to die just from straight up hypothermia.

I know you're not a cold weather gal, so is this something that you would attempt?

Erin Hynes: The cold is like the biggest issue for me.

I'll be honest.

I don't wanna be cold, but also I just feel like the season of

alpaca my bags is just exposing me for not being adventurous.

Because like earlier this season, I admitted that no,

I do not wanna go to space.

Like even if someone hands me the golden ticket, I don't wanna go And no, I don't.

I don't wanna attempt to climb Everest, even if I had the resources

and the money and the time.

And it's funny because like I do love hiking and I'm down to climb mountains.

Just nothing above like 6,000 meters.

I'm gonna say that's probably my, I don't even know about 6,000, 4,000 was hard.

But I mean, Luke and I are planning to go to Nepal like probably

next year or the year after, and we're gonna do some trekking.

It's gonna happen.

Okay, but not Everest?

Kattie Laur: No.

Maybe somewhere around Everest.

Maybe just like trickling around the base of Everest?

Yes, but like not too, not nothing crazy.

Nothing crazy.

Don't need, we don't need to be crazy.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

So the reason it's a no for me is yeah, the cold.

That it's dangerous also, like it's not fun.

I mean, like, it's fun, I'm sure, but like you're in pain a lot of the time.

Yes.

I don't know if I'm able to go through like hours of pain just for that.

Well, maybe I, I don't know.

It's

Kattie Laur: hard to say.

That's why I'm, that's why I'm saying it's a maybe for me, cuz I think I.

I think I have the mental fortitude to do it.

Hmm.

I just think, I don't know if I have the physical fortitude to do it.

Erin Hynes: I think we should climb a mountain together.

Like I've thought about this before.

And I think we should because I'm also like, like when we did that 4,000

meter one, Luke and I like I was the one that like got us up the mountain.

Was that the volcano?

Yeah, it was very hard and I think you and I would be really good at that together.

Cause we have the same brain.

This is why I

Kattie Laur: think we should do the amazing race together.

But that's a whole different

Erin Hynes: conversation.

Honestly.

Listen, alpaca Palace, like you gotta get us on the amazing race.

I don't know how this happens.

Like someone started a campaign cuz you know Katie and I would win.

I think

Kattie Laur: we would at least be top four.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

The problem for me is the food.

Like I don't know if I can eat like a cricket.

Can you, they don't do food on it anymore.

Kattie Laur: They don't because of Covid.

They don't even do the flight things anymore where you have to

like try and get the first flight.

All of that's planned now.

Oh my gosh.

And so they just do legs in countries.

It's actually kind of cool.

They're kind of falling into a slow travel type of thing, even though it's really

fast, but they stay longer in a country.

Whoa.

So they do these things called mega legs that are legs in between two cities

and it's like a longer period of time.

And then they all have like booked.

Planes already.

They fly them to whatever the new place is and then they start in

different groups depending on how they did the day before in the last leg.

Erin Hynes: Oh my gosh.

We would totally thrive.

I think we would thrive.

I mean, you know that I applied to go on it already.

Yes.

Kattie Laur: But you need to do what every drag queen on RuPaul's Drag Race does.

Which is apply

Erin Hynes: every year.

Yeah, it's true.

I know I wasn't committed enough.

You're just not showing the

Kattie Laur: dedication that we need.

You're right, and neither am I.

Erin Hynes: You're right.

I got distracted and I started applying to be on Wipe Out because

I also got it in my head, but I would like do really good at that.

I also just like was smoking more weed, so I was able to like,

Make myself think these things.

This is

Kattie Laur: key and this is what I would hope to bring on Everest

is just a little bit of weed.

Mm.

You need to be a little aloof to get all the way up to a mountain summit.

Erin Hynes: I think so, yeah.

Okay, so we got a little off track, but what I was gonna say is we,

interestingly, like I think a lot of people think like the height is the.

Biggest challenge of climbing Everest.

It's actually not like it's, it's a big part of it, but the real problem

is that the air thins as you climb.

Mm.

So when you reach the peak of Everest, there's approximately 33% of the

oxygen that is available at sea level.

Oh.

Imagine the amount of air you're breathing right now.

Instead breathing 30% of that,

and this is why climbers call elevation above 8,000 meters, the death zone.

It's because low oxygen causes altitude, sickness and brain swelling.

You can become very disoriented and climbers talk about how you just sort

of like, Go into this zone where you can't think straight anymore and you're

so disoriented that in the book that I read, one thing that they said is, if

you sit down when you're up there and you're not doing well, that's a really

bad sign because once you sit down, you'll just, you'll just sort of sink

into it and you won't wanna get up again.

So yeah, the dust duston is super dangerous and that's above 8,000 meters.

And listen, like I can say just from.

Experiencing like a little bit of altitude sickness, that it

is incredibly debilitating.

Like the idea of doing that for many hours on end is just wild to me.

And that was at like three to 4,000 meters.

So imagining it like at double, that altitude is wild.

Aside from the altitude, there are other hazards as well, like avalanches,

extreme cold, which we've talked about.

And extreme weather conditions like the weather can just change on a dime.

So one of the interesting things is like when people are doing a summit push, they

stay at base camp for sometimes weeks on end, just waiting for, they call it a

weather window where they're predicting that the weather will stay clear.

And like relatively safe.

And then that's why you end up with like traffic jams on Everest

because once there's a good weather window, everyone goes out to do it.

That's so

Kattie Laur: mind blowing.

And I mean, just the air thing alone immediately just switched my mind over to.

The possibility of me ever climbing Everest is a no now because I have

asthma and I would probably pass out just hanging around base camp like I don't

know if I could actually physically do it.

That just completely changed my mind.

Great.

Thank you for that, Erin.

So what actually does go into climbing, talk to me about this, like how

long does it take to Summit Everest?

The

Erin Hynes: actual summit push is about one day.

Which sounds wild because so much time like goes into preparation.

Um, yeah, I thought it would take way longer than that.

No, the, a lot of time is spent adjusting at base camp and like I mentioned,

waiting for the right weather window.

Um, so the average time for an expedition start to finish is about two months.

So that'll include like gathering supplies, trekking to base camp,

like the trek to base camp alone.

Takes about seven days.

And I mentioned at the top, like, first you have to fly from Katmandu

to Lukla, this tiny airport that's known as being one of the most

treacherous airports in the world.

And when I was in Katmandu, I remember sleeping in my dorm and there were a

bunch of hikers in my dorm and they were gonna go do the Everest base camp truck.

And for three mornings in a row, they would wake up at four in the

morning hoping that they would be able to get on their lu left flight.

Every morning I would wake up expecting that they would be gone and they

would be there because they would say we couldn't afford our flight

cuz the weather wasn't good enough.

Depending on the

Kattie Laur: weather, it can really completely change

Erin Hynes: how long it takes.

Exactly.

So it's the average of two months, but like it'll depend on how long

it takes you to actually get to base camp, adjust to the altitude.

They also practice climbing up to higher peaks and then coming back down to

adjust and just like practice the climb and then the actual summit push happens

when that weather window comes around.

But this actually brings me to another challenge in climbing Everest, which is

the price Expeditions require permits, um, support equipment insurance, and

it all adds up to a rough average of 60,000 US dollars per person.

Oh, the permit alone, which is charged by the NEP police

government, is $11,000 per climber.

So some people pay these costs out of pocket.

There are some infamous people who have wealth, who have essentially

like paid their way up the mountain.

Other people are teams that get sponsored.

Um, so a lot of outdoor companies, for example, will sponsor teams.

Kattie Laur: Clearly, it's not like every average Joe can just head to Nepal then

and summit or even climb Everest then.

Erin Hynes: No, definitely not.

Okay, so then who

Kattie Laur: is climbing Everest?

Erin Hynes: Let's start the beginning.

The first summit was in 1953, so not that long ago.

It's like been just over a hundred years.

And that first summit was Edmund Hillary of New Zealand and Tenzing

Norge, uh, Sherpa of Nepal.

So they were the very first people to stand on the highest

mountain peak on Earth.

Back then, Edmund Hillary got the bulk of attention for this achievement.

Obviously, um, Tenzing Norges name wasn't added to the record

book for decades Afterward.

Interestingly, Hillary is referred to as the first person to climb to the

top of Everest, even though there are actually accounts of Sherpa reaching

the highest peak before foreigners ever set foot in the country.

Kattie Laur: So the achievements of Sherpa have been a bit overlooked.

Erin Hynes: Absolutely.

And that's not the only issue here.

There has been a lack of diverse representation in people who traveled

to Nepal to summit the mountain.

Ever since that first summit in 1953, to date, a few thousand people have

summited Everest, and as of 2022, only about 20 of them have been black.

This fact points to a larger issue that we've talked about on the show

before, and that is the lack of representation of people of color in the

outdoors and in the adventure industry,

Kattie Laur: unsurprising and a few thousand people have summited,

I'm guessing even more, have tracked all over the mountain.

So what kind of impacts are all of these climbers having?

Erin Hynes: Yeah, so.

As the popularity of the Everest climb has increased, there's been

many growing concerns around the impact that expeditions are having

on the mountain itself and on Nepal.

Climbing the mountain has become more accessible like you if

you have money like you can.

You can just go climb it.

You can pay people to get you up that mountain.

And obviously this leads to problems.

For example, there have been traffic jams on the mountain from so many climbers

attempting to summit on the same day.

This has raised a lot of concerns about safety and there are

also very warranted worries.

That Sherpa are paid way too little for the risk that they take in helping

climbers reach the Everest Summit.

Sherpa guides face some of the highest death rates of any field of

employment for comparatively little pay.

Yikes.

Kattie Laur: And given how little we hear about this in the outdoor and adventure

travel industry, we probably don't really have a great idea of what local

people in Nepal think about all of this.

Right.

Erin Hynes: Yeah, we don't like, I, I personally definitely don't,

and that's exactly why today we're gonna chat with two Nepalese people.

Emirate and Shta.

Yes.

Um, we're also gonna chat with Philip, who was the expedition lead of the

climbing team called Full Circle.

They're the first all black team of climbers who have summited Mount Everest,

and they actually quite recently summited.

It was in May of 2022.

Okay,

Kattie Laur: so let's dive into this.

Yeah, let's

Erin Hynes: do it.

This was a groundbreaking moment on top of the world's highest peak, seven members

of the Full Circle Everest Expedition celebrating their successful summit.

Oh, while making history as the first all black climbing group to

reach the top of Mount Everest.

Team leader Phil Henderson, sharing the good news on Instagram writing.

In part, all members of the CL and Sherpa teams have safely

returned to base Camp where we will celebrate this historic moment.

Amate, a huge congratulations to you and the entire full circle team.

Reaching the summit of Everest is obviously an accomplishment that

very few people ever experience.

So I wanted to start by asking you to describe what it actually feels like to

stand on the summit of such a mountain.

Amrit Ale: Erin, uh, first of all, thank you so much for, uh, having me,

uh, when I submit I was exhausted.

I was happy.

I was very emotional and proud.

To be on top was very peaceful.

I was blown away by the views.

It was a huge sense of relief.

I felt proud of myself and the team and grateful for the, you know,

strong and steady leadership of Phil

Erin Hynes: Henderson.

That's amazing.

How long do you spend at the very top?

Is it just a few minutes or do you get to spend like, Half an hour.

An hour.

I have no idea how long people actually spend right there at the top.

Amrit Ale: I was up there around 4 45, something like that.

Oh wow.

Wow.

So I think we spent like half an hour, 45 minutes.

Erin Hynes: Philip, since all the members of the full Circle team couldn't be here

to chat, I was hoping you could tell us a bit about the team, who they are, and

what the energy of the team is like.

Philip Henderson: Yeah, there was, from here, you know, our

climbers, there were 11 of us.

Adina, I'll, I'll start with Adina.

She's, uh, I met Adina first in Denali 2013.

She's works as support tech for scientists in Antarctica.

When I knew that we could have a fair amount of tech needs, um, on the

mountain, on the expedition, I knew that I wanted her to be a part of it.

And she was really explicit about not wanting to climb.

Wanted to be a member of the team and, and she could help out.

So that was great.

And then there's Abby.

She was recommended by another friend, by by Sam Elias, who, Sam and I were

on Everest together back in 2012.

And then there's Rosemary, who again, I met, I met Rosemary as a result of.

Expedition to Naali that her and Adina were on back in 2013.

In the beginning, we, well, we always wanted to, we wanted to be gender

neutral and we couldn't find enough black women with experience to go

further than, than those three.

So then I'll go, I'll start with Fred.

Cuz I met Fred, I really in uh, first, and he was actually climbing a day with Manoa.

Dom and I got connected not too, too long after that.

Most

Erin Hynes: days for Dom Mullens start like this, runs through the woods workouts

in his makeshift gym and post-exercise plunges into a freezing cold pond.

It's a grueling regimen all to prepare to climb a mountain synonymous with

the ultimate challenge, Mount Everest.

To climb a mountain like Everest,

Philip Henderson: you need to have a lot of endurance.

So that's what I'm doing.

I'm building my endurance over time.

Dom Manoa and Fred had all been, um, climbing with Conrad for the previous.

2, 3, 4 years or so.

And then Eddie came, I met Eddie in ura, Colorado.

I threw it at him and like, you know, you wanna be a member of the

team because I could tell that, you know, he had experience and so on.

And you know, up to that point, it's like we all had 6,000 media experience.

Almost all of us on the team have that.

So, and then there was kg, he was also on Expedition Denali,

but he had been on Denali before.

He's playing Malcolm Kawa.

He's been on Kilimanjaro numerous times.

Uh, but he was from Kenya and I knew that if anyone deserved to get an opportunity

to, to go to Everest, it was kg.

And so I wanted him on the team.

Then there was Evan.

We really wanted to have, provide opportunities for people who could go to

Everest and it'd be a next, a good step in their career, regardless of what it is.

And Evan was not only is a mountaineer, but he's a photographer as well.

And there are no high altitude.

Black photographers.

And so this was an opportunity for him to advance in his craft as well.

That, uh, I think that pretty much rounds it out.

What

Erin Hynes: is the energy of the team like?

Philip Henderson: For one, it, it took time to kind of get to know everybody, you

know, but the energy was always positive.

You know, when oh, oh, that's what was, it's Thomas that I missed.

After we went public, we had done a few Instagram posts and so on, and

Thomas found out about the expedition.

And I had some questions that everybody on the team had answered, and one of Thomas's

answers was, you know, I want to be a part of something that's bigger than myself.

That's what we all kind of knew, and that it wasn't just about us climbing,

you know, or summoning Everest.

It was about us as a team doing something that we all like to do,

which is climb, but also we represented something that was very rare.

Erin Hynes: I understand there's a lot of collaboration that goes in

and so the members on one of these expeditions is really important.

I wanted to ask if you could share a bit about what your role on the

team is cuz you led the expedition and then I also was interested in a

Dina's role, like the role of tech.

I think like tech isn't something people think about when they

think about climbing Everest.

Mm-hmm.

Could you talk a bit about like what, how that factors into.

Climbing such a mountain.

So

Philip Henderson: my role in general was because I had been to Everest

and had been to Nepal many times.

My leadership kind of leads into even the vision of the expedition, which one of our

goals was to connect these two cultures.

I have a wonderful relationship and community and connection with.

People from Nepal and a lot from the Sherpa community.

They're like family to me, aunt brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents.

You know, I wanted to open that community up to other people who

looked like me because I hadn't, I'd been in Nepal 12, 13 times and I think

I'd seen another black person once.

But also as a climber to understand and see what climbing in the

Himalayas is and what it does for you.

The relationship that I built with not just the people, but the mountains and

the people interconnected, the goal was I w, you know, was to introduce

these other black climbers who.

Don't have other mentors like themselves who do these things in other parts of

the world, and for us to all understand that and make that connection together.

So that was a part of my role as, as you know, one leader.

The other one was, you know, permit wise, um, I had been

worked with Gibon since 2000 and.

Seven or eight, I think when I met gbo and we had talked about, you

know, working together and which now then also leads into, uh,

choosing our Sherpa team as well.

So, because I had worked, you know, with Amri and the folks at

the Kmu Climbing Center, a lot of our Sherpa team were coming from

Erin Hynes: Forte.

The role of technology and like tech and that would've been Adinas role.

Um, how does tech support the climb?

Philip Henderson: So, you know, from power being solar and generator power

to, you know, we were scheduled to do a couple of live chats from base camp.

We had 11 members and I think we had a total of four or five, uh, laptops.

While we were there, that they needed to be up and running so that people

could, one, communicate with each other.

But we also used them to do these live chats as well.

The really important thing was our radio communication and then there's

also just cell coverage as well.

That's what she did.

That's what she does for a living.

And she's like, that's gonna be my role and I'm gonna enjoy it.

And that was awesome.

But the other thing about, uh, that, that Adina brought was that she

had also been in Nepal before, but only when she was seven years old.

And so she was psyched to just go back and and hike to base camp cuz

she had hiked to base camp with her parents when she was seven.

Erin Hynes: Katie, as you know, travel for me does not always go according to plan.

Kattie Laur: Oh yes, I am well aware having made over 80 episodes of

this podcast, I know that mishaps can happen when anyone travels.

Erin Hynes: Absolutely.

And when they do, you need travel insurance, and I couldn't

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The link is in our show notes.

So of course climbing Everest is a huge physical accomplishment.

Um, but I think that there's more to it than just overcoming

the physical challenge.

So Philip and Emory, would you say there are other rewards that

climbers find in summiting Everest?

And what would you say those rewards are?

Amrit Ale: There's lots of rewards.

It increased, uh, professional recognitions.

We made friends, good

Erin Hynes: friends.

And Philip, do you have anything to

Philip Henderson: add?

I think the, the biggest thing is the friendships.

You know, it's not often in your life that you get to spend, you know, 50

days with the same group of folks in a place like Everest and doing those

things and counting on each other.

And.

It's a different experience and it's a wonderful experience.

Yeah.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

Cuz I guess like a lot of it is that you are not only like friends with these

people, but you're putting your life in each other's hands and relying on

each other for not just like physical support, but emotional and mental support.

Cuz from what I understand, like doing a summit like this is a huge

mental battle like Emery said.

And so you're relying on people for so much more than just

like the technical support

Philip Henderson: to climb.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You get, it's like you get energy from, you know?

Mm-hmm.

In that environment, it is a matter of life or death, whether you, whether

you like it or not, it is every day.

Is that, Having that emotional support and the physical support and having the

comradery and playing cards and, you know, watching movies and just sharing

so much with that group of people.

It's so much more than summoning.

Yeah.

Amrit Ale: Like, you know, when you spend time for 50 plus days for 24 7,

So, you know, ins and out of everyone,

Erin Hynes: Phillips.

So the main goal of the Full Circle Expedition was to be the first all black

team of climbers to Summit Everest.

The expedition was of course about climbing and about raising the number

of black people who have summited, but I think that representation

is much more than a number.

What do you and your team hope the success of this expedition will do

for changing the narrative around black people and the outdoors?

Philip Henderson: Up until that point, there had only been 10 black people around

the world who had summoned at Everest.

That means that's 10 people who could even talk about the Everest experience.

You know, that's one of the things that can change, is the people

who can actually talk about it.

The people in our community that can talk about climbing Everest and the Everest

experience from experience, not just from what they read, that was a big part of it.

The other part was the cultural relationships and really

knowing, you know, the Nepali culture and Sherpa community.

You know, I'm, and I have spent more time together in the mountains, I think, than

some of my friends here in the us And so really connecting with that culture

and being able to, to talk about it.

And explain to people that a Sherpa is not just someone who carries

your things on the mountain.

A Sherpa is actually a cast of people.

A and they have their own culture as well as the other cast of people in Nepal,

you know, which Hanta and, and Amrit who, who are not Shepa or some of the other

folks that we work with in Kaman Do.

And Porters, you know, along the way, who are also, you know,

helping us along the way and caring things for who aren't Sherpa.

So under having that, under that cultural understanding and that

that cultural competency to actually help move forward, you know, the

education of, of mountaineering and what climbing Everest really is.

Entails, it's not just summoning the mountain, it entails connecting

with a lot of different cultures in a, in a small country, understanding

the connection between the people and the environment as well.

Erin Hynes: I mean, I know for a lot of my life, like the only exposure I had to like

the concept of somebody and Everest would just be like this photo of typically like

a white person at the summit of Everest.

And in that photo, like you don't know all.

The people and community that are behind what made that photo happen.

What I'm hearing is that by more black people summiting Everest, they're bringing

this experience back to the community and showing the community that this

experience is available to them as well.

Philip Henderson: For sure.

Cuz and, and by doing that, like I'm, I know more people now who.

They're mountaineers and they never really thought that they would even

attempt ever, because they'd never seen someone like themselves going in.

It just seemed like that far out.

Even though they're still mountaineers that has changed.

It's like no, people really see themselves and they say, and that's not just climbers

that are even, that's even people who just want to go to NAL or go to any place.

That's the beauty of it cuz we're talking about Everest and we're, and we're talking

about American people, but this is.

We connected with the Nepali culture.

We were talking with the Nepali Youth Leadership Council, and they were

saying the same thing about wanting to be connecting with nature, but

then also understanding that there's differences in caste systems and

what people have traditionally been allowed to do and what roles they

play in society and those things.

So, There's so much for me than climbing evidence.

It's everything.

Erin Hynes: Yeah.

This is the perfect moment to shift towards talking about

another underrepresented group when it comes to climbing Everest.

The mountain and the Himalayas are home for Sherpa and for Nepalese people.

Emory and Shta, can you share with us your personal relationship to Everest and how

Nepalese people in general connect with Everest and other mountains in the region?

Uh, I

Shanta Nepali: would say, uh, not on the, not only the Mountain Everest.

The mountains are really close to me because I am personally come from

the eastern part of Nepal and there is no, like, no particular mountain

that I can see every day and or that I, that I can imagine to climb.

Uh, I worked as a filmmaker and travel, um, inside and outside

Erin Hynes: during my work.

Shanta Nepali: I went to the mountain area and then I.

Felt like, okay, this is the place that I can, you know,

feel included, feel so relaxed.

So the mountain, uh, especially the Everest is for me is the

symbol for inclus inclusiveness.

And then included that I can see, uh, sea.

And then, you know, imagine one day I can be there in the top of the

top of the abrest, not on, not only.

As a physical, but also as we already talked about, the many things we can,

you know, climb not only physical mountain, but people have their own

mountain, own Everest in their life.

So I can, I can see as my, you know, um, inspiration as a mountain

Erin Hynes: or Everest and Emory.

How about you?

Of

Amrit Ale: course, uh, uh, Mount Everest is the bride of

Nepal for me, as a Nepalese.

Uh, not only Mount Everest, all the mountains are all the mountains I

respected and yeah, and deep respect for

Erin Hynes: me.

Um, so since the first summit of Everest in the 18 hundreds, the bulk

of attention and coverage when it comes to the mountain has been focused

on Western and European climbers.

Often the fact that Nepalese climbers have made the summit possible through guiding

and support is left out of the story.

In 2019, NIMS Peria brought attention to the lack of Nepalese

representation in climbing by leading a Nepalese team to climb 14 of the

tallest mountains in the world.

I watched his documentary, which is how I came to know about

this, and yeah, so Amory Hanta.

Do you feel that in recent years as this issue has gained a bit more coverage, that

there is growing visibility for Nepalese climbers in the mountaineering community?

Are you seeing any change?

Shanta Nepali: Yeah, I, I agree with you and then I agree with the foot and pick.

Um, uh, it's really, you know, inspiring, whatever he did is really,

uh, motivating for everyone, not only for the Nepalese people, Nepalese climbers or

internationally who never climbed or never imagine, you know, to climb the mountain.

This farm certainly gives.

The, you know, recognition for the, you know, especially the police, um, mountain

ring community, especially Sheas, uh, who, you know, climbed or worked many,

many years and never got the recognition, uh, from any, you know, place.

So definitely this, um, film gives a certain, you know, recognition

in, in, in international arena.

And then after this film, I have also experienced or known personally, many

Sherpa are getting more opportunities, uh, because they have already,

they experienced in the mountain.

But, um, you know, uh, after the film or after, uh, not only the pics,

but after, you know, the films that, um, come outside and people know

more about Nepal, uh, people are coming just, you know, to travel.

So, I've seen many people who never imagined in their life to,

you know, go to the Everest or go to any 6,000 or 7,000 meter in

Himalaya after watching this film.

They come to Nepal and then that helps to, you know, promote Nepal

tourism at the same time, giving opportunities to mountain, you

know, of communities, and then even Sheas getting, you know, exposure.

So I certainly un I know, agree

Erin Hynes: with that.

Mm-hmm.

I, that's something I learned myself when I was in Nepal in, I think it was 2017.

I had gone there thinking like, oh, I'm not a mountaineer.

I'm not sure like that I'll be able to get out into the mountains.

And I wasn't prepared to do base camp, but I did tons of hiking with local

guides that I didn't like really know.

I could do until I was actually there and I just had such an amazing

time and just learned so much.

I think a lot of people don't realize, and maybe it's becoming more common

knowledge now, that there's a lot of like quite easy and moderate hiking that

you can do there, even if you're not.

Like a real mountaineer and Emory, how about you?

Are you feeling that there's more visibility for NEP climbers in the

mountaineering community in recent years?

Amrit Ale: Yes, for definite, especially after the NES Brujas

movie and Netflix, 14 pigs.

I have lots of friends abroad and every one of them have watched, uh, this

movie and asked, I'm really happy.

Watch this.

You know?

Uh, that means of course people have.

None more about Nepal.

And also because of this, it has raised the profile of Nepalese Nepal a bit.

And also there are growing number of Nepalese Mountain who are climbing

for the climbing sake two years ago.

And there was all Nepali leaf first winter K K2 expedition.

And, and there is an a project going on on Chou, you know the Nepal team,

they're trying to climb from Nepal site.

Uh, not from Tibet side that never been done in the past, and there

is still the project is going on.

And also there are now more Nepal guiding outfits, uh, getting more popular than,

um, than the international companies.

Erin Hynes: Yeah, I mean, Everest is a huge contributor to Nepal's

economy and tourism industry.

I was curious about how much like it contributes to the economy specifically.

So I did some research and I read that in 2019, Everest Expeditions

alone contributed over 300 million.

To the Nepalese economy.

And I can just say like from personal experience, when I was there, there was

plenty of tourism economy around Everest.

Even if you aren't going to base camp or climbing Everest

yourself, for example, while I was there, I did an Everest flight.

So I took a flight around, um, the summit of Everest so that I could see

it, which was an amazing experience.

Yeah.

So it felt very much like when I was there that Everest was

infused in the experience of.

Being in Nepal, even if you're not climbing yourself.

So RI 10 Hanta, can you share how tourism Nepal is benefiting local people?

So,

Shanta Nepali: um, personally, um, tourism not only giving the,

you know, you know, money to the.

Government or to the Nepali government, but also giving the opportunities for to

work, uh, you know, uh, or earn or getting ge getting good life, uh, in, you know,

in the mountain areas, especially Sherpa communities, they're, you know, their

life is fully dependent on the mountain.

So, uh, if there is no tourist, if there is no, you know, activities, tourism

activities, they're live or they're, you know, earning, you know, will be finished.

So regarding the, you know, tourism, uh, regarding the life, um, I think.

Not only the Sherpa, not only the Mountain Committee, but also people

who, uh, have many, um, business in Kamanu or other, you know, cities.

Uh, so many jobs are underneath.

Even I also work, um, in the outside or in the, you know, mountain in

the, so I'm also rely in tourism.

This, take these things We mostly realize during the Covid

time, everything was shut down.

Nothing was there.

You know, no tourists, no activities, no people can go

outside and then people cannot work.

So it was really hard for us to, you know, uh, survive as well.

So tourism is the one of the key, uh, income source for the

n nuclear tourism and not only for the, uh, state or government.

Yes.

I already repeat it.

Um, for the people who lives in the mountain, who, people who

work, uh, people porter, you know,

Amrit Ale: everyone.

Yeah.

I mean, uh, so tourism is a huge part for Nepal, actually for me.

This is what I, I have done, um, since my twenties at Santa Sets tourism.

It's generating jobs across all sectors.

Um, being a mountain guide, city guys, jungle, river, hotel,

restaurants, shops because of tourism, you know, it has raised the

standards of living under people.

Erin Hynes: On this podcast often we'll talk about sort of

the balance between when tourism does good and when it can do bad.

Um, because in some cases we've seen examples around the world of where

tourism just overwhelms a local community and then it can go into the.

Area of over tourism.

So I wanted to ask if there are any negative impacts from tourism

that either of you have noticed, like an impact on local culture

or way of life or the environment?

Emory, do you have something to share

Amrit Ale: there?

There is always positive and negative, right?

As you said, it's overhauling.

It's some, some places it's, it's overcrowd, let's say up in

Everest, we had huge crowds in.

And Manaslu this fall in September because of that, the pollution, of

course, um, the environmental degradation.

Waste,

Shanta Nepali: I think, um, the government has to come up with some certain, you

know, strategy because we have Hughes Hughes, uh, you know, income source from

tourism, and then there is some sort of responsibility from, from, from the

government they, they have to come up with because polishing, overcrowded,

you know, so many things, you know, coming up with the, the positive sides.

But, um, At the same time, we also expect from government for Nepal,

especially Nepali government has to come up with this strategy to balance this.

And last couple of years in inside of Nepal as well, the domestic tourism also

growing very fast because, um, I travel a lot inside Nepal and then I, I see

a lot of nese people traveled inside.

But, um, there's some sort of, people has to understand how to, you know,

when you travel, there is some sort of, uh, responsibility as a traveler, you

Erin Hynes: know?

Uh, so

Shanta Nepali: yeah, I can see a lot of, uh, positive changes at the same time.

Negative as well.

But I, I really want to say, um, government has to think about, uh,

seriously, uh, about tourism in Nepal, how to save, uh, how to save

culture, how to save nature, how to, you know, do the development

in terms of not only making roads.

Mm-hmm.

You

Amrit Ale: know?

Yeah.

I mean, like to find a balance.

Maybe our government suited.

It restricts the number of permits, eats climbing seasons

and, and, and different mountain.

You know that maybe there should be a lottery system like when

you raft the grand cannon, right?

There's a lottery system, maybe less luxury setups up in the mountains when

when you go open thees expeditions.

There are some.

Guiding Outfitters.

They offer like coffee bar and, you know, very lux stuff at the BAS camp,

which is, I don't think you need those.

And of course we need some sort of comfort when you're climbing the mountains.

Uh, but it shouldn't be like too luxuries.

Like for me, myself, I mean, I have been working in the North

American mountains in the Rockies, like anana climbing in Denali.

It's, it's a self-supported, right?

Everything has to be very minimum.

So how can we impact.

Less.

It should be like that in our hemal as well.

That's what our government should think of.

Erin Hynes: I wanna go back to something you mentioned too, Emery,

about how crowded Everest has become.

Cuz actually, and they touch on this in the documentary 14 Peaks,

NIMS Perge had shared an image of just the lineup of climbers that

were on the mountain that day.

And it brought up a lot of discussion in the media about

like what this means for Everest.

And I guess like one thing that I was thinking is, I'm sure that like when

there's that many people in line to summit, that it takes away from the

experience of the climbers as well because you're stuck in this sort of line.

I imagine that it also like isn't super safe, like I'm wondering if these

crowds take away from the experiences of climbers themselves and also

potentially are dangerous for climbers.

Amrit Ale: Yeah, it's indeed, it's, it's very dangerous.

It's, it's very sad that people who want to climb mountain for

the sake of, oh, I did this.

You know, I'm fortunate.

I've been, I, I, I get to climb with all climbers, with all black team.

Um, there are people who come and climb Everest, that who

never been in the mountain in the before, who never had Campan Sun.

They don't have any experience whatsoever, whatsoever in the past.

And that's what, you know, it creates, uh, that problem up in the mountain.

Erin Hynes: And I guess it's because Everest is the tallest, so people want

to be able to say that they climbed the tallest mountain even though there's

like many other 8,000 plus meter high mountains that you can climb.

It's just that Everest is the tallest.

Shanta Nepali: Everyone has that right to go to, you know, a mountain

climb, Everest or any mountain in the world, you know, you can climb.

There is no restriction, but there is a process that you

can have to go through it.

You are not going, you are not just going to climb, you know, physical

mountain, but there is so many process.

And you have to get to know the people.

You have to get to know the culture.

You have to get to the mountains yourself, your body.

You know, earlier we talked about like no overcrowding and then,

you know, promoting tourism.

No people are coming.

That's positive side.

Yes.

But at the same time there is a number of people, uh, who you know, actually don't

have that experience in the mountain, you know, so that's overcrowding as well.

People really wanna climb.

Be in the, and just want to request like please just go through some sort of

process and then come in the mountain and you'll get to, you know, understand on

Erin Hynes: yourself as well.

That's like a criticism that I've, I've seen brought up about ine Everest that I

guess it's now possible that if you want, you can just pay your way up the mountain

regardless of what experience you have.

Philip Henderson: Right?

Yeah.

It's great to, for me to hear other people say that, but really when you put

it all together, like what I mentioned, like maybe prerequisites, Of, you know,

having climbed other 6,000 meter peaks previously, you know, SHTA is saying

like, get to know your body, to know the mountains and know the culture.

You only know that through experience.

And so when people wanna become mountaineers, it's like, yeah,

you have to go through the, through through these experiences.

You gotta pay your dues.

And what's what we're seeing now is people don't pay their

dues, they just pay their money.

And that is one way that we could really kind of change the culture, but still

have, you know, tourism in a positive way, but people, you know, have it to

really understand what mountaineering is.

It's not just something that you buy your way

Erin Hynes: into.

I would love to hear, um, if you have one positive change that you hope to

see in the mountaineering community in the coming years, and how regular

people can support that change.

One

Philip Henderson: thing that I'd really like to see is, again, just more people

period who haven't been mountaineering before, try get into it, whether

that, and when I say mountaineering, that mean climbing ice climbing.

Rock climbing.

Again, it's that recognition that you all were talking about just recently,

and I don't mean representation, but I mean recognition of, you know,

Nepal being this wonderful place.

You know, you can learn to climb in Nepal just as well as you can.

Learn to climb here and recognize that, you know, folks who are climbing

and guiding and trekking guides and porters and all of those things that.

They're a part of the outdoor economy as well, whether we realize it or not.

So even just common folks like you, it's like you didn't call yourself a mountain

air, but it's like, wow, I can really go to Nepal and do some really cool hiking.

I can hire a guide and put money into that economy and

really get to know the culture.

At the same time, just really exposing more people, which means

more of the community in which I come to because I already know.

That you know from going to Nepal, that there's already so many people who are

going from so many other communities and they have been for so many years.

And so that's why I wanna see that change.

It's a boost in the economy, not just in representation as well.

The

Amrit Ale: one positive change that I want to see in the modern committee in

the coming years would be, Increase the level of the training, uh, through the

programs that we run here in, uh, kombu.

It's called BU Climbing Centers.

Our mission is to increase the safety margin of climbers, the

high ed workers, and it's not only the technical, uh, aspects.

Uh, we also, you know, teach about the environmental ethics, um, and,

you know, social responsibilities.

So not only Kbu climbing center, there should be other.

And people should support, um, an organizing like, uh,

like ho climbing center.

Yeah.

Shanta Nepali: For me, I wanna see more people like Philipp.

For more people like me, more people like, um, in the mountain community, I

don't see in many people, many women, many communities that underrepresented

in the mountain community.

So, yeah, that's,

Erin Hynes: that's a positive, you know, change.

I wanted to see in the future.

Many of our listeners probably aren't going to be somebody in Everest.

But given this, I wanted to ask if you could both give a tip for

any traveler coming to Nepal.

A lot of our listeners are avid travelers, and I'm sure a lot of them plan to

come to Nepal if they haven't already.

So what is one thing that you would like visitors to know or to

do when they come and visit Nepal?

Nepal is

Amrit Ale: not only about the mountain, mountain is just just one part.

It's about the people who live here.

It's a diverse culture.

There are ERs, there are jungles.

People come with an open mind and open hurt to observe and ask

questions and not, not, not judge.

I

Shanta Nepali: agree with.

Um, I would like to say please, Common experience, like, you know, experience.

It's not just the money that you pay and then, you know, you fly,

go track, you know, just reach the point and then fly back your home.

It's not just about that, it's more than that.

Just experience.

And then you be

Erin Hynes: like as, um, uh, Phillip that said, he has

Shanta Nepali: been in Nepal for many years and then

Nepal is second home for him.

And then for us after the full circle, you know, expedition, this is our family, you

know, not just the, as a work, work, work.

So this is our family.

We have been, you know, friends for a, you know, lifetime.

So you have to come and experience that relationship with the people,

you know, experience with the culture.

You can, you can, you know, have that experience for a lifetime.

So just come with, with that and come

Erin Hynes: for the experience.

Do you have recommendations for where people could go for good

food or like where can people go to have those experiences?

But I people always wanna know about food and Nepal.

Very good food.

Many, yes.

So I have to many to bring

Shanta Nepali: that up.

Many recommendation.

Yeah.

There's so many recommendations.

If you come to get Mandu, you will have so many.

Good food.

So many places that you can go.

There is a culture, there is a monument and mountain areas.

You can have, um, every region on other, other unexplored area that

you can go and then experience, you know, stay with the families, you

know, make friends, make anything.

That so many, so many recommendation.

I can't count in

Erin Hynes: one.

Amrit Ale: Yeah.

We need, we need another, uh, Podcast

Shanta Nepali: is, yeah, we need that on a podcast.

Erin Hynes: I'm planning to come back next year and I will email you for things.

Please, please do.

And Philip, I'm gonna ask you as well, because I know you've spent a lot of

time in Nepal, you spent a lot of time mountaineering, but what is something

people should do in Nepal outside of.

Mountains,

Philip Henderson: no.

BAK Depo is, is a really cool place to go.

It's one of the old ancient kingdoms in the Katmandu Valley.

Um, unfortunately it was a lot of damage from the earthquake back

in 2015, but they've been doing a lot of rebuilding and so on.

But it's still a really nice place to go.

I still want to travel south.

I want to go to, to po Rock down in the, in the valley.

Where it's warm and not freezing cold all the time.

And I want to learn to pair Glide, so I wanna do it in Nepal instead

of doing it somewhere else.

So

Erin Hynes: thanks for listening to the show, alpaca Pals.

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