Erin: Think you've had a bad airline experience?

Wheelchair users around the globe are having some of the worst travel

experiences imaginable, and that's because aircrafts do not allow

wheelchairs to roll right on.

In Canada, federal regulations require passengers who use

wheelchairs to sit in airplane seats.

This means that most mobility devices have to be stowed in the

cargo hold along with luggage, but mobility devices aren't luggage.

This system is resulting in thousands of dollars worth of damage to wheelchairs

and scary, uncomfortable experiences for travelers with disabilities.

Maayan: There's this feeling of being robbed of my independence, my

mobility, my wellbeing, and for that to seem to not matter has been the

relationship of, you know, people with disabilities and, and airlines.

Erin: Every person deserves to have a dignified, safe and

comfortable experience when flying.

And now there are solutions available to make sure flights are accessible.

Kattie: In the first half of this episode, we're talking to Maayan Ziv.

She's a disability activist and the founder of the Access Now App.

Her work has named her one of Canada's top 40 under 40 in 2021, and we're

talking to her because just two months ago, her wheelchair was irreparably

damaged by Air Canada on her way to an accessibility conference.

Ultimately, this sparked an uproar on social media and finally, a statement

from the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

In the second half, we're talking to the founder of Flying Disabled and

Air 4 All Chris Wood who believes that he's found one of the solutions to long

awaited accessible airplane design.

Erin: We're unpacking why inclusive air travel is lagging and what legislation and

changes are needed to make it possible for wheelchairs to roll right onto the plane.

But before we get started, I wanna mention that there are a range of disabilities

and experiences that people have.

In today's episode, we're focusing specifically on mobility

and wheelchair accessibility.

So just keep that in mind as you listen.

Kattie: Is this the first time that you've listened to Alpaca My bags?

If so, make sure that you've hit the follow button right now on

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, because there

is so much more to come this season.

Erin: If you wanna get in touch with us and please do.

You can find us on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter.

We're @ alpacamybagspod.

Kattie: You can also DM or even email us anytime all of our

contact info is in the show notes.

Erin: Back in 2019, we sat down with a wonderful Andrew Gurza to talk about

disability and travel, and one of the first things that he mentioned to us

was that he felt it was important to talk about what disability feels like.

So let's start there.

Maayan: That's a really great way to start.

When it comes to traveling, it's never fun.

Unfortunately, having a disability means like the first engagement with

the idea of travel is usually one that has some anxiety attached to it.

A lot of nervousness.

It's mostly an experience that I have to navigate on my own, you know, I'm

constantly feeling I have to advocate or I have to show up for myself

and and be really strong and brave.

I'm expecting things to go wrong, and that is a really heavy feeling.

And it's not all the time.

I mean, I have experiences that are delightful and work with people that

are incredible who do understand.

There's a lot of beautiful collaboration.

I make new friends when I travel because people are often, you know,

willing to help or make changes.

Uh, and there's always amazing stories, but you know, when it comes to

something like getting on a plane, very rarely do I have a really beautiful,

smooth experience where I just feel like a person and not like a burden.

I think the biggest change was when I moved from a manual

wheelchair to a power wheelchair.

It became increasingly difficult.

Erin: Could you explain a little bit about what the differences are, just

in case some people aren't aware?

Maayan: Sure.

Yeah.

So I've always had a disability.

I've always lived my life from this perspective.

Uh, when I was really young, I used a, a manual wheelchair.

Uh, and so that would be foldable and not the same as a stroller,

but equivalent maybe in terms of the weight of a stroller.

And when I grew up a little bit and wanted more independence,

I started using a power chair.

and my power chairs are very custom to me.

Uh, they're usually about 300 pounds.

And managing a power chair when you travel, uh, is harder because

the airlines, the airports, they're just not really set up to

manage mobility devices very well.

Anything that's more custom or larger in weight or something that people

can't just like lift and move around.

There's a lot more risk of damage because people literally just have

to manually lift the chairs onto the planes in cargo right now.

That's how it's done, and so there's just so many opportunities where

things can go wrong because of that.

Erin: And we unfortunately heard that things went very wrong with

Air Canada not too long ago.

Could you share whatever you're comfortable with

about that recent experience?

Maayan: So two months ago, uh, I got on a flight to Tel Aviv.

To show up at a conference focused on accessibility and tourism.

And ironically, when I arrived, my wheelchair had been broken by the airline,

so I couldn't really attend most of the conference and definitely didn't have an

awesome time exploring accessible sites.

in Israel.

It wasn't the first time I had a wheelchair broken on a flight.

I'd actually been through this experience before.

Uh, I went to New York and American Airlines dropped my wheelchair

from the cargo door when they were trying to remove it from the planes.

I literally was sitting and just watched my wheelchair fall and hit the tarmac.

So American Airlines paid to replace my wheelchair, and then

that wheelchair was the one that now Air Canada is paying to replace.

So it's just a system that repeats itself, and that is kind of the

unfortunate reality of currently flying with a power wheelchair.

Erin: And it's like a system that repeats itself, but it's like every

time it does, it leaves you without your means of getting around.

Maayan: Yeah.

It's the amount of times that I've been through a damage claim or an

issue where my wheelchair was lost or delayed or broken, too many to count.

Uh, I've had two total losses.

But beyond that, so many instances of damage.

And what that does over time is create a pattern that causes tons of anxiety

because I, I have zero trust in, in any positive experience getting on a plane.

Like imagine going through the airport and feeling like you have to

fight, literally fight, to be heard.

To finally get on the plane after going through so many difficult conversations

with people who don't understand or they rush you, or they ask you to

prove if you have a disability or can you walk at all, or they almost

drop you before you get to your seat.

There's all these things that happen and not even going into detail in all of them,

but finally, you're sitting on the plane.

And where people are kind of getting in the head space of now finally, you

know, I can start my vacation or I'm so excited, or they order their drinks.

I'm just sitting there in tremendous anxiety because I still have no idea

if my plan, if my wheelchair made it on the plane, if when I get to the other

side I'm gonna have my mobility still.

And so this weird kind of contrast between people who feel like they're

being taken care of because they're customers and me feeling like I'm like

this weird blip that people don't know what to do with, where I basically end

up feeling like a second class citizen.

It's a gamble at this point because we don't yet have real concrete

evidence that this is going to change.

Like we starting to see some change.

But you know, there's nothing that would suggest to me that if I get

on a plane tomorrow with a brand new wheelchair, which I still don't have

yet, that this won't just happen again.

Erin: I mean, like recently, Canada's Federal Accessibility Commissioner

and the Chief Commissioner of the Canadian Human Rights Commission issued

a statement acknowledging that people with disabilities continue to face

barriers and discrimination, which when traveling in Canada, and they

said that in many cases they're being denied their fundamental human rights.

What are your feelings about the statement?

Like do you think that the signals real change or is it lip service?

Where are you at with this.

Maayan: This statement came out in direct response to the virality and

news coverage that my experience had.

I've been through many experiences where I've gotten off a plane and, you know,

been stuck in a hotel in New York City where all my friends are seeing Broadway

shows, and I'm sitting in a hotel room because I have another broken wheelchair,

you know, and, and just sobbed.

I can't tell you how many times I've like sat in a hotel room and just sobbed.

There's no acknowledgement.

There's no accountability.

There's this feeling of being robbed of my independence, my mobility, my

wellbeing, and for that to seem to not matter has been the relationship

of, you know, people with disabilities and, and airlines for way too long.

And so I'm giving you the long story of the context before I answer your question,

but the basically what happened this time around when my wheelchair broke,

uh, was broken by Air Canada, was that I sat in a hotel room finally after just

literally being in crisis management mode.

You know, since I was in Toronto, so two days almost.

I wanted to create a video in which I explained what happened.

And instead what happened was I created a video where I just broke down like the

second that I started filming, cuz it was the first time where I felt like I

could release everything that I had felt.

"And I show up and I see a wheelchair that used to be my form

of independence smashed to pieces.

It just signals to me that I wasn't considered, that I don't matter,

and now I'm stuck here, in pain, stuck here without my independence.

Left alone.

This has to change.

We can't let this continue anymore.

I'm just devastated

." When I posted that video, it really resonated with people and went quite

viral and the news had picked it up.

And because of that level of attention on an issue that happens every day but isn't

given a platform, it caught the attention of a of a few ministers federally within

Canada, and it caught the attention of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

And that statement that they issued, uh, has direct reference to words

that I used when I shared my story.

How, you know, the negligence or carelessness of managing mobility

devices can result in the direct denial of human rights, and that actually

can result in discrimination and that wheelchairs can be, and often

are, an extension of our bodies.

I mean, we haven't seen those kinds of statements.

Not with the immediacy that they happened.

Now, I don't think it's lip surface because it's an important step in the

acknowledgement that this is a real issue and that this isn't a one off anomaly.

This isn't, you know, a story between me and an airline.

This is a Canada wide and actually international level issue.

I can tell you when I read those statements, Meant a lot.

I think it's important because it sets the precedent that things need to change.

It's not enough to just make the statement, but it does, uh,

acknowledge the wrongdoing and it does acknowledge the barriers that

people are currently experiencing.

Erin: And I guess it also gives people the language to describe like what the issue

is as a starting point for addressing it.

Maayan: Yeah, I think that's a really important point actually, because what

we've seen, you know, from the airline, for example, in response to, to my case

and the press, is that this has really been kind of outlined as an inconvenience.

As a customer service standard issue.

It's not really acknowledged with the impact or weight or

gravity of a human rights issue.

Erin: What are the main changes that you feel we need to see in air travel?

Everything from the experience in airports themselves to the experience on the flight

and then arriving at your destination.

What change do we need to see to ensure that people with a mobile

disability like yours have a dignified and comfortable experience?

Maayan: I think the first thing that needs to happen is there needs to be

some acknowledgement that people with disabilities are customers and deserve to

be treated with the same level of respect and dignity that any other customer would.

We're currently seen, whether it's intentional or unintentional, but we

experience something that feels like we're a burden, a nuisance, that we're

in the way, that we're expensive, where that wouldn't be acceptable to

treat any other customer like that.

Airlines have a part to play in the solution.

Airports have a part to play in the solution.

You know, governments do.

Um, there are many different organizations responsible for ensuring

that people get on a plane are safe.

The acknowledgement has begun.

The next step I think, is really about doing a full scan end to end and looking

at all of the, the barriers, all of the moments in which people with disabilities

are not having an equitable experience.

Training what, what it feels like when you speak to someone who refuses to

speak to you, but to your caregiver, what it feels like to be asked

to whether you can stand or not.

You know, there are all of these weird moments, um, that happen that can totally

be eliminated with the proper training.

And then we get into the harder stuff, which is how do we ensure that mobility

devices are not treated like luggage?

And how do we ensure that my best end result goal would be that people with

disabilities who use wheelchairs or any other, um, mobility devices are permitted

to stay on board aircrafts with them.

Cause then they are, are not kind of asked to sacrifice any level of support

or comfort or independence that they normally would have in their lives.

And I know for a fact that right now there are many people who

just won't get on a plane at all.

Erin: Yeah.

This is a question that Kattie and I have asked many times, like, why can't

we just roll right onto the plane?

It seems very simple to us, and it seems like we have the technology

these days to make that very doable, and yet there's like no action.

Maayan: Yeah, I mean, I'm not an engineer.

I don't know, you know, all this claims about safety and insurance and

maybe that there's validity to that.

Maybe there isn't.

But what I know is that there's a lot of odd kind of telling signs of where

the priority of investing in change is.

And like for example, today I just read, um, that Air Canada is rolling

out a new service that will allow people to fly with their horses.

And they've established new cargo spaces that will safely transport prize horses.

I would imagine that there's tremendous costs associated with doing that, but I

would imagine that for an airline that decides to proceed with that, they've also

acknowledged or recognized a tremendous opportunity to reap benefits, uh, of

a certain clientele that they maybe are already serving or want to serve.

In a recent article that Air Canada issued, you know, they stated that

in 2019, and it was roughly 1.3% of travelers that had, uh, mobility devices.

And I think what they meant to do, and it was like something like 700,000

customers over the course of a year.

I think what they meant to do is explain that in most of those cases

people travel safely and fine.

But actually what I heard when I read that is that between the lines,

what they're saying is this is a tiny clientele group and it's not

worth it for us to spend the money.

Kattie: But horse owners are?

Maayan: Well, Here's, here's my beef with that, is that, first of all,

that data is totally incorrect because we're not measuring the, the 20%

of the population that experiences or has a disability right now.

If you're talking about the population of people that control controls,

certain consumer spend, On travel, you're not even scratching the

surface of who could be your customer.

So failed opportunity to recognize something like 13 trillion a

year in annual disposable income controlled by the disability market,

like total failure to see that.

Secondly, it again is constantly about accommodation of a small niche group,

and we're doing the best we can, and sometimes we fail to meet our service

standards as opposed to recognizing that this is a human right, that wheelchairs

or mobility devices are an extension of our bodies, and that when you damage

even one, you are robbing someone of their independence, of their mobility,

of their health, and not for a day.

Not for a week, not oh, an inconvenience of a lost luggage.

But this changes their trajectory and the way that they live their

life for months and months and up to a year and sometimes longer term.

We have an opportunity to, to right this wrong and putting enough pressure

and holding, um, the folks that need to be accountable accountable and not

easing up until we actually see change.

Erin: I can speak actually from personal experience, I have a very

severe food allergy, like anaphylactic.

So when I fly I don't eat because no airline can guarantee

that their meals are safe.

And the allergy that I have is quite common, like it's now pretty

common like in the population.

And Air Canada I think offers now like over 12 special meals for all sorts of

like different eating styles and they refuse to offer allergen free meals.

And the reason they gave me is that they just don't want responsibility

if something goes wrong.

But one other question I have is like, do they financially compensate you when

this happens and you spend like a week longer, like months without your device?

Maayan: So it's really up to the individual to advocate for what they need.

and it's a battle.

It's not like my wheelchair is broken and the next day or the same day, I get

a message from the airline that says, Hey, we acknowledge that this happened.

Whatever the cost of it, we'll make sure it's covered and

we're gonna do it right away.

It's a battle again, of advocacy of, of making sure I have the right

documentation of explaining the issue.

The first communication I got back was a $300 E-voucher for

the inconvenience caused that I could put towards my next trip.

Kattie: That's the story that we've heard twice now from Andrew Gza

who just experienced this again.

Erin: Like last week.

Maayan: It's so much bigger than than one case by case, putting out fires, crisis

management, you know, pay away the problem response that's ever gonna fix this.

Like this requires, what I would say is air travel reform.

I mean, if, if any other group, you know, if someone had gone on a plane

and expected to arrive at a destination and upon arrival, you know, had

their, their knees bashed in by the airline, that would not be acceptable.

And there was no way that the messaging could be, we fly tens of thousands

of people, but unfortunately in this one case, we failed to meet

our customer service standards.

Like how would that be an appropriate message?

And yet that's exactly what's happening here.

There's major systemic negligence that that needs to be addressed in

order to properly solve for this.

And I can tell you when I go through the airport with an aging population, with

a mass disabling event like the pandemic has been, it's literally becoming parking

lots of people waiting for assistance.

It's right now there's major stop gap solutions and like we are putting

out fires where this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue and, and,

and it will need to be addressed.

It's just a matter of time and, and pressure until we actually see results.

Erin: How does the experience of flying compare to other experiences

of like overland travel, let's say on a bus or on a train?

Maayan: There's actually no other mode of transportation where

I'm forced out of my mobility.

You know, I can go on a train and sit in my wheelchair.

I can go on a in, in a taxi, on a boat, on a cruise ship, on a

subway, like literally on a gondola.

Like there's literally zero types of other transportation that tell me

I have to get outta my wheelchair.

I can go on rides at Disney World and sit in my wheelchair.

And so there, it's not that it's not possible, it's possible and in many

industries we're seeing great strides.

Like train travel can be great uh, when you use a wheelchair,

it's just a lot slower.

I think about it from the lens of an entrepreneur where time is one

of my most important resources.

If I'm able to get on a plane and go and have a meeting

in Ottawa, that's one thing.

If I have to sit on an eight and a half round trip train ride, just

because it's not safe for me to fly with my mobility device, how am I

being given equitable opportunities?

Like if you start to look at the invisible things, any other

entrepreneur's time would be more valued.

But mine, because of all of these workarounds I have to do, I have

to make constant sacrifices just to preserve my safety and my independence

and time ends up being spent in other ways than building my business,

than pursuing my opportunities.

It's spent on protecting my wheelchair.

And actually they've done some amazing things in, in trains.

Like even if I get on, uh, a train even in Canada, and if I'm going

on Via Rail, , they have made the accessible car in first class.

It doesn't mean I have to pay a first class ticket.

So they're not looking at the cost, they're just looking at the right place

and the right experience and the right way to make sure that someone can travel.

There are small examples where things work out and that's awesome and

they should be celebrated, but so we're not seeing that in air travel.

Kattie: Just thinking about traveling through an airport.

There is a whole culture around like a V I P service already

that's like very normalized.

Realistically, like disability needs specific aid and support

to make it a smooth service.

And that should be just as important as a V I P service, right?

Yeah.

So why prioritize these people over these other people?

And then I just get into my capitalism shpeel...

Maayan: and you know why, you know why

Erin: it's about the money.

Maayan: And I've had that, I've had that told to my face on one of my last flights.

I, uh, they said, you know, it's a full flight if you've got carry on, we might

need to ask you to store it in cargo.

Okay.

I, I said listen, I've recently had my wheelchair broken and I can't afford

for my travel chair, it's the only chair I have now, to be broken again.

Please allow me to store it on the plane.

And they said we might have space.

But ma'am, ma'am, when it starts with the ma'am,

Kattie: no

Maayan: I know it's not gonna go somewhere good.

We might have space, but ma'am, we need to ensure that our first class

passengers can store their luggage first, and then we will see about you.

And I just felt like, why are you prioritizing luggages over my mobility

and my independence right now?

And it's because, again, the training is focused on the customers that pay.

Again, second class citizen, not as important right now.

You always feel that.

But when it comes to basics.

I mean, I'm not asking for champagne.

I'm asking to make sure that when I get off the plane I can still live my

life , that I can still leave the airport.

Like basic things that people just haven't recognized.

Erin: And this is something that's come up when we've talked to other people about

like their experiences with air travel.

Like a lot of it just boils down to education.

We've talked about racial profiling on the show before, and that's like another

issue where it's like literally you just need to put staff through training so

that they understand and they don't do it.

Kattie: One trans woman was asked to like remove her wig, I

don't know how people are almost brainwashed out of like humanity.

Erin: So one comment that we've noticed in discourse online that it would be too

expensive for airlines to make air travel accessible, like commuters online will

defend airlines in their lack of action.

And Kattie and I find this so ironic because like people complain so

much about air travel and airlines.

And then when we bring up this issue, like on our Instagram, people are in the

comments being like, oh, but it would be too hard for an airline and too expensive

for an airline to like make this change.

I'm curious if you've noticed this too, that like people tend to like

take the position of a corporate entity in a, in a situation where

like it really makes no sense too.

Yeah.

What's happening there?

Maayan: Unfortunately.

We don't live in a world where disability is valued to the same

extent that other groups are, and our experiences as disabled people, you

know, come from a really dark history of really, really bad discrimination.

And so sometimes what shows up is the unknowing residue of that.

That's kind of what I think ableism is right now.

It's like the generational passing of understanding

disability as still less than.

Whenever I see language that says like, what do these people want?

Or we do our best to help them.

We as a people are, are still othered and still seen as an expensive

burden on society and like, I'm using the hardest language, but

I'm also trying to be really clear

like where things actually are and people who know me will know I'm an

extremely positive person that focuses on inviting people to be part of the

solution, but at the same time, it's really important to call things when

we see them, because without that acknowledgement and accountability,

like how are we going to course correct?

Kattie: We did briefly talk about the virality of your video, and

Erin mentioned our Instagram video.

It got a lot of hits.

It's still getting a lot of likes and people commenting on it, and

it seems like a lot of people are starting to care more and more.

Are you noticing that there's sort of like a revolution or something happening

with more people becoming disability advocates, either online or in person?

Maayan: I think that's really important to talk about because

as much as ableism is still real.

And as much as people with disabilities are still fighting for our rights

and advocating in, you know, in the case of air travel or many other

spaces in our world, one really cool thing that's happening is that

there's this generation of people who've grown up with social media.

And we've been able to tell our own stories and we've been able

to authentically be ourselves, and we're not waiting for mainstream

media or for Hollywood to figure out how to tell our stories.

We're just doing it on our own.

And that has allowed for a level of intimacy and transparency and helps

to create normalization of life that people don't know anything about.

Often there's a lot of education that's like not in our school system.

You don't get it from mainstream anything.

So where are you supposed to get it?

We're getting it from creators.

We're getting it from people with disabilities who are showing up

and kind of claiming that space.

And I think that that's one of the biggest reasons that we're seeing this shift is

because even with my own social media platform, I'm talking to human beings

that are seeing me as human, hopefully more often than not, and are recognizing

that I have the same desires and interests that everyone else does to be, you know,

to feel a sense of belonging, to do

meaningful work, to enjoy things in my life and seeing that be denied

from someone that they then come to know feels like someone in their

life that's being denied that.

And that emotional connection I think has helped people kind of wake up.

And even just the other day, you know, I had someone tag ,someone saw a video about

me and then went online and just said, I don't know anyone with a disability.

I've never encountered these things, but I saw the story of a girl named Maayan

and I can't believe what she went through.

And that is because I told my story in my own words, and it wasn't Air Canada

that had to do it or no one else.

And I think that increased coverage, the media picking it up and

figuring out how to use the right language, we are seeing a shift.

For sure we're seeing a shift.

Erin: So you mentioned that you like to invite people to be part of the solution,

so I wanted to ask in your mind, what can people do to support accessible air

travel and accessible spaces in general?

Maayan: Yeah.

Um, okay.

So a few things.

First of all, what I always tell anyone is just amplify.

Like if you see a story or you hear about something, getting as many

people to know about this is like, the first stop in creating the

awareness and education necessary.

And that's really easy to do.

You know, retweeting, sharing, posting, you know, whenever we see things we

care about, we share those things.

Um, and that's an easy way to start.

And then, you know, if you work in the air travel industry or if you

work in tourism or hospitality in general, asking questions about,

you know, are you engaging with people with lived experience?

Has the company you are working for invested in making

sure that it is accessible.

Those are the first kind of prompts to figure out if

there's more work to be done.

It's not gonna take one government or one company to sort this out.

It's gonna take leadership from a few first brave organizations, governments,

people, and then I think that starts kind of these, um, ripple effects that

cause an entire industry to shift.

And I do actually truly believe that we're living in that time right now.

So I'm excited for the future.

So yeah.

Kattie, as you

Erin: know, travel for me does not always go according to plan.

Kattie: Oh yes, I am well aware having made over 80 episodes of

this podcast, I know that mishaps can happen when anyone travels.

Erin: Absolutely.

And when they do, you need travel insurance, and I couldn't

recommend World Nomads more.

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World Nomads encourages all travelers to be prepared when adventuring

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The link is in our show notes.

We were hoping we could start by asking you to share with us your

personal connection to the issue of accessible air travel and how

you became involved in lobbying and campaigning for the air travel industry

and governments to address this issue.

Chris: Um, it's a simple one really.

Both my children, I say children, they're 27 and they're 29.

Uh, divorced a few years, me and my daughter decided that we'd like to

spend Christmas somewhere else, and it was the first opportunity I had

for me and her to really go away.

Disabled children stop being children at 18 and they lose a

lot of their support around them.

The reason why I say that is, Because I really haven't been away with them

when I have traveled by air with them since they were young enough to

pick up and move and carry around.

And suddenly the first time she's almost like, um, she's a young adult,

and going through the system of air travel is really quite brutal.

I found myself with my daughter being manhandled from her power wheelchair

onto uh, a little aisle chair.

I went to New York with her, then I took my son, who's also in a power wheelchair,

so I've got double trouble, and me and him went to Dubai to the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

So within a space of about sort of seven months, took three flights and

they were all pretty awful for both.

And it was pretty much after that first trip, um, at Christmas that I

came back and started researching.

And I think it became apparent that whereas there would be an advocacy

group in the uk, one in the States, maybe Scandinavia, littered around

the world, nobody really came out of their, their bubble of their country.

And aviation is global.

Whatever happens here at Heathrow Airport must happen at L A X, must

happen in Copenhagen and Mombai.

So I took to my credit card and started to travel a lobby and

talked through it with the airlines.

Ultimately, I thought when I move into the airline industry and start

attending their conferences and talking to them, I'm either gonna get a bullet

or I'm gonna be hung because I just didn't think I would be welcomed.

I'm gonna disrupt their industry.

But the reverse was true.

I was truly welcomed into that, um, arena, most of the people realized

that aviation is way behind other forms of transport, and I suppose,

I don't have a disability, and so I was kind of seeing this as normal.

I think if I'm being honest, if I was in a wheelchair or I had a disability, I

might have found it more of a struggle.

However, I was welcomed and change was due.

Erin: I think it's really interesting you bring up the point about this

being a global issue because I guess like one of the problems that people

face is that while there could be regulations in the country that you fly

out of, there's no guarantee what your experience will be on the other end.

And so it doesn't make sense to have such a, um, fragmented approach.

Like really we need like a global approach to make sure that the experience

from start to finish is positive.

And I also wanted to touch on something else that you mentioned,

that commercial aviation is so behind in terms of regulations.

So I wanted to ask, why is this, do you have insight on why the airline

industry is just so far behind?

Chris: Um, yeah.

I think it goes back to all these advocates in different countries

trying to make a change in aviation.

But you know, land and sea, let's look at rail or buses.

It's much easier to get legislation if you like, regulation in your own country.

Rail is, is a much easier target to campaign and, and push for.

People fly, uh, for holiday once a year.

So it's not at the forefront of their mind, but of course it

is when they decide to use it.

Rail and, um, buses it under their own kind of country.

More legislation than regulation, it can have a bigger effect.

But outside of that, I'm trying to get the Americans to talk with the British,

to talk to the Canadians to talk to, you know, it's just like my God, you

know, just talk to each other man alive.

This is, and something I'm in the process of doing at the moment.

So that would be the answer.

And the reason why they've never done it on air is most governments rely on

the regulator to set the standards.

So for example, in this country, in the UK we have the Civil Aviation

Authority, in America, the FAA in America.

But in Canada I think you have the CTA and that oversees

most transport, including air.

I think the difficulty is in a nutshell, Aviation is self-regulating.

They can make the rules when they want.

Erin: Yeah.

It's interesting you mentioned that like it might not be as top of mind

because the amount of times that you'll fly in a year compared to taking a

bus or a train is generally much less.

But it also makes me think of this point that Maayan made, which was, she

was saying like amongst the community of power wheelchair users, It's well

known that flying is a nightmare.

So she was saying a lot of people just choose not to fly.

And so the airlines think that the amount of people that are coming to

them to fly, um, with their wheelchair is much lower than it has the potential

to be because people are just, Nervous to fly and for very good reason.

Chris: That's absolutely right Erin.

In fact, it's a, it's almost a figure i, as much as I try and use focus

groups on social media, it's very difficult to find that figure of who

will not fly because a, the possible personal injury and the personal and

the damage personal wheelchair, which could be several thousands of pounds.

You know, I, my own kids are 15 to $20,000.

Um, something around those regions and, you know, they climb up from there.

You know, who, who buys a ticket and, and it says on the bottom, by the way, if you

fly in our aircraft, we might break your legs, but you know, nothing we can do.

Erin: One of the arguments that we have seen people making online

is that it is too hard to modify aircrafts so that they can safely

accommodate wheelchairs on board.

Um, we've noticed that people argue it's too expensive or it's too drastic

to widen aisles in the aircraft.

I personally find this a very wild.

Wild argument because so many public transport vehicles

do accommodate wheelchairs.

So can we squash this argument?

I feel like we can, because I know your organization, Air 4 All, has

created a design that would allow for aircrafts to accommodate wheelchairs.

So I'm hoping you can talk a bit about the design, maybe describe

how it works and how easy or how hard it would be for airlines to

actually incorporate this, this design into new and or existing aircraft.

Chris: So what we have designed Air 4 All is a consortium of three people.

So there's me, uh, who I am simply standing on the shoulders of giants,

of someone like Priestman Good, who are one of the biggest designers of

aircraft cabins and s SWS Certification.

One of the biggest certification companies for the seat that must go in the aircraft.

And the seat that we've designed, quite simply, think of a cinema seat.

It flips up and therefore we make space for the wheelchair to come in.

So what we've done is taken a single aisle aircraft, which is the most popular

airline type of aircraft out there.

As you walk on, you would typically see, um, three seats,

either side on the first row.

Now knowing that single aircraft is still growing and they're

still buying, typically they would put premium economy seats on the

front and charge more for that.

So we've taken a two plus two concept of premium economy, so we get more width.

And a bit more space.

So the seat flips up and the wheelchair comes in and it butts up against the seat.

It doesn't attach to the seat, and we were hoping at the moment, there's

lots on the table, that it will connect to the floor of the aircraft.

Again, there's a whole load of certification around that.

As for the wheelchair, what will that look like?

At the moment, again, everything's on the table and I it might be really a

battle, but it might not be because I'm looking at this wheelchair and I've

often said to the regulator, I, I think we should look at this as a carry on.

And they've gone, well, no, we can't do that, Chris.

Well, it's not fixed to the aircraft.

And the way we are looking at this is now, and I think, you know, as

you and I on this podcast probably walk on with coats and but are not

tested for toxicity and we have bags that are not tested and so forth.

Well, a power wheelchair is very similar.

It's more part of my body.

It's what I do.

We're still looking at it and we've got a, a subsidiary of a major

airline manufacturer building it as we speak, working along Sunrise Medical,

who are one of the biggest power wheelchair manufacturers in the world.

So in terms of people on on the job, we've got exactly the right people.

And more importantly I think Erin, Airlines are seeing that

the consortium is made up of people that understand aviation.

They understand the cabin and its limitations.

Erin: I guess because the design is in progress, it hasn't been

implemented anywhere yet, but when it's ready, how hard would it be

for an airline to actually implement this on a single aisle aircraft?

Chris: Very simple.

It costs them in the short term, but in the long term And what happens suddenly,

you, in all those people that Maayan was talking about, the I'm scared to

fly, go, oh, actually this is safer.

I think I will.

So suddenly the airlines untap and unlock trillions of dollars around

the world of money to come in.

Erin: Even just from personal experience, like I'll share, like I have a severe

food allergy that's very life threatening and I talk often with friends of

mine who share this allergy about how we are the most loyal customers.

Like there is a business here in Toronto that I go to all the time because they

serve, uh, food that's safe for me.

And they've told me that they're busy all the time because the allergic

community knows that it's safe and will always go back and we tell all

the other allergic people about it.

And so this makes me think like in the context of accessible air travel, the

first airline that would introduce this would likely be incredibly busy because

word will get out and people who've thought that travel is inaccessible

to them will book with that airline.

There's one airline, I sat down with him.

D"o you know our biggest problem, Chris is not disabled passengers.

We do as best as I can, it our elderly passengers."

Now, I turned 61 in January, which is shocking.

I'm sure you could look at me and go, my God, Chris, you're only 30.

But I am, I'm 61, so I am, I had a rock and roll lifestyle.

I was a roadie as a kid, and I, I'm sure I'm, I'm gonna be less mobile than

most within a short period of time.

However, I still wanna spend.

I still wanna fly, so are you gonna make this accessible for me or are

you gonna say, nah, not gonna bother.

We only want millennials.

So as we've established the design is doable.

There is a template for accessible air travel.

Um, so I wanna ask what the disconnect here is.

Why aren't airlines making these modifications to their aircrafts yet?

Chris: Because they don't have to.

It's not regulated.

Now we have a template, now we have the Air 4 All system and

everybody kind of likes it.

It's winning awards.

It's got the Fast Company award, the journalist award it, it was

shortlisted for the Crystal Cabin Award.

It's one the Conde Naste Traveler Award ideas.

So there's no real reason why this can't happen.

My objective is to make sure this can go in every single

aircraft, commercial aircraft.

And I have a feeling it would be hard pushed for this to not be regulated

because we'll have, there'll be a small amount of airlines, the good ones or

bad ones, whatever you wanna look at.

But there will be a core of airlines that go, yeah, I want

that, I want that, I want that.

But there will be those that say, I'm gonna wait until regulation.

And it would be interesting to see how social media reacts to that if

someone, Maayan decides to go from Canada, to LA in her airline of choice,

but wants to get a second flight that doesn't have the system in.

So we, we have a fractured journey and regulators like harmonization

and so we'll, we'll try and get that regulated and, and harmonized.

Even if it's not our system, if something else comes back, I want the best

experience possible for my two children and, and all those in wheelchairs.

Erin: Well, and like Maayan was saying, like this is a human rights issue

because you're taking away the dignity of travelers who deserve to have dignity,

who deserve to have their legs when they land on the other end of a flight.

And so that's what I think boggles my mind about the fact that like, we're

still not seeing the legislation that would make this a must for all airlines.

Chris: Good question.

The, the un, they have, um, an aviation arm called iko.

They're looking at this and I would argue, They should be looking harder, but there

is an airline lobby out there, clearly hell bent on taking their time around

this and not doing it, and they would argue, hold on, we've just had a pandemic.

We are in desperate straights financially, now's not the time, and

I'm gonna go, well, when is a good time?

Because you couldn't do it in the financial crash.

You couldn't do it in volcanic eruption, let alone the wars

that go on throughout the world.

There is never a good time.

Now is a good time.

You've got the solution and you can get some benefits, I'm sure by tax breaks

from r and d or something like that.

But secondly, you could also, you get more revenue.

Build it and they will come and we are gonna build it.

Erin: And I'm sorry, but human rights in my mind, trump revenue.

Chris: Oh, try telling that to an airline.

I, I've never said that, but I've seen very.

Uh, uh, I've seen other people who in, in a, in aviation, are in a much more

prominent position, stand on a stage and shout human rights, civil rights.

I'm in the airline industry.

We are out of order.

When I watch a Paralympian on TV crawling down an aircraft to get

to a a toilet, we are out of date.

Oh, when I heard that, you know, it, it just, that's it.

It's just wrong on every level.

When I started this, I was waiting for somebody to tell me through some

law of physics, Whatever that may look like that Chris, because of A, B, and C

and here's the maths, here's the evidence, it will never happen.

So I sit here today, talking to you, saying it's never happened.

Everybody says, course it can be done.

Chris, you can change the cabin of an aircraft.

Changing the culture of an industry, that's another thing.

Erin: What's your general feeling?

Maayan told us that she feels very positive that things are changing.

What's your feeling on this?

Do you feel that we're on the brink of success here in making this legislated?

Chris: Yeah, I do feel very confident.

The primary reason is social media.

Now we're able to film those things, we get able to take pictures and we

can be more vocal and more visual.

So to have a bit of film of someone, you know, crawling down the aisle

of an aircraft or pictures of broken wheelchairs, suddenly this becomes, you

know, not something which, oh, someone told me once, you know, no, it's there.

You know, in, in the court a law, that's evidence.

This is front and center.

So I think there is change.

I don't think governments will legislate.

But I think if the industry doesn't regulate, start doing it themselves.

If you can change an industry from within and they are willing to to change, then I

think governments will leave them alone.

But if they're looking over the parapet and going, well,

why aren't you doing this?

It can clearly be done.

We've seen the Air 4 All idea, so we know it can be done.

What's now stopping you?

Governments will use their power to influence the regulators,

or the regulators will then start saying, hold up.

We can.

This is a safety issue.

And it is a safety issue.

We can talk about human rights, civil rights, and the, the

business case, the revenue models.

Ultimately, it, it's, it's about regulating for safety.

Erin: Do you think there's more social pressure on

airlines to make these changes?

Like do you think there's a role there?

Chris: I think it's happening.

I think the public discourse is out there and people are posting stuff that is

happening on aircraft with a disability.

There are a lot of issues inside that cabin of an aircraft that

have never been looked at.

So we look at power wheelchairs, we look at manual wheelchairs, and

then let's look at someone who's

someone who's maybe deaf, how do they hear those announcements?

Someone with autism, how do they travel?

And this is not like a train, which could be a short journey.

This could be a an eight hour journey.

Let's go to the midpoint.

Something's gotta give.

It's difficult because it is a small cabin space if I go back to that, but

that doesn't mean we cannot innovate.

This is an aviation industry that is renowned for innovation.

It might be a case if you can please most of the people, but

you won't please everybody.

But let it organically grow.

Let these things grow.

And I go back to the anology of people often put up, you know, we can land

a man on the moon and, uh, why can't we get a wheelchair in an aircraft?

And so the air 4 all is the first landing of the moon.

If we let the first step happen, it will organically grow because the airlines

will see their revenue, they will see this can do so many other things.

Flip up seat, lady in an orchestra with a cello says I'm going to book that.

Suddenly we are looking at Medi Air, who charged tens of thousands of pounds to

insurance companies to repatriate people that are skiing that broke their legs.

Suddenly we've got a seat for them.

We've got access for them.

You know what it primarily is set to do.

What else can this thing do?

How else can we innovate in different areas in this?

And yeah, that's what gets me excited.

Yes, I've got a passion to sort this out, but, but where else can we innovate and,

and move things forward to make the world a better place, even if it is an airline.

Erin: Something you've touched on here is about how accessible design is really

just about like broad inclusivity, and you might design it for specifically

someone in a power wheelchair, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other

people that this design will benefit.

Kattie: Just something as simple as automated doors are just as helpful

for somebody in a wheelchair as a mom with a baby on one hip and a

coffee in the other hand, like it accessible design works for everyone.

Chris: It does.

If you design for accessibility in mind, it goes off in so many different tangents.

Erin: So in your mind, what can people do to support your work to support

legislation for accessible air travel?

What do we need to do?

Chris: I think the biggest one for me, but it's the most boring one.

It is to write to government officials.

if you could write to those people and keep writing and don't make

it generic, make it personal.

Even if you're not in a wheelchair, you go, look, this is a human rights issue.

One day I might be in a wheelchair and I, I'd like this sorted please.

And obviously social media, it plays such a huge part.

There's a always a lot of posts out there where things go wrong.

And actually that's a great thing, but I kind of like to see

it when it goes right, because.

The people at the airports don't get up in the morning aiming

to smash somebody's wheelchair.

Most of them get up in the morning and they want to do the best they can.

This is about a broken system.

I've seen three burly guys at an airport lift my, my daughter's

wheelchairs a hundred k or whatever.

It's lift it, lift that they shouldn't be doing that.

That's health and safety gone to the eighth degree.

So it's about who do you blame?

Will you blame the system?

Personally, I think the regulators who are coming around to this should be

looking at this a little bit harder.

And my my trainer thought is at the moment because of people like Maayan who

post stuff on social media who support what I do is that people are listening.

So it is working.

Erin: Yeah, and I mean, I guess this just goes back to the overall point

that the airport handling of a power wheelchair isn't even an issue anymore.

If a person in a power wheelchair can just roll onto their airplane themselves.

No one will have to handle it.

Chris: Let me tell you, because I'm about to write something about this.

Um, for on LinkedIn, is that.

Airports can save money.

So me and my daughter are going on holiday and the Air 4 All system is in place.

I don't need agents, I don't need staff, I don't need to notify.

Seats already booked on the aircraft.

I just need to get on.

The airports will save a shed load of money.

I wanna say millions and, and it will be millions collectively.

But I think drilling down there'll be a lot more to that.

And for an airline, no bad PR.

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show, Alpaca Pals.

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Alpaca My Bags is written and hosted by me, Erin Hynes, and

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I'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, I hope you get to

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